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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 37 post(s) |
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4336
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Posted - 2014.07.16 15:21:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hi all,
We want to have this formal discussion and get your input. We believe that the community has wanted to have some say on this issue for some time, and now that I am studying this data in detail, some things brush me the wrong way (or my OCD).
Dropsuit Slot Layout
First table is Current, next table is proposed, and third tracks the difference in slots between the two.
We don't need to do any changes to these layouts right now. However, with PG/CPU increases for the Assault class on the horizon, more based on a PG/CPU allotment per slot type, it would be the right timing to swap a high with a low in strategic places, or add missing slots.
The new premise is a single matrix of racial high/low arrangements and then tactical choices of the other slots (EQ, SA, W, G). The proposed matrix is also intended to be more thematically in line with EVE Online racial slots.
Amarr highest number of low slots
Caldari highest number of high slots
Gallente equal number of highs and lows, preferring lows
Minmatar equal number of highs and lows, preferring highs
Moving forward with few changes without changing the whole layout of every dropsuit is certainly on the table as well. The logi sidearm f.ex. There are other "anomalies" that I would love to discuss, such as STD and ADV logi racial differences.
Of course if you see some errors, please let us know.
Have at it and keep it civil and constructive!
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Leeroy Gannarsein
Legio DXIV
488
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Posted - 2014.07.16 15:46:00 -
[2] - Quote
Well, I'd like a 2/5 layout for Amarr Assault; I don't like that we share a layout with the Gallente Assault; makes the differences in the two suits far less pronounced.
I very much want to keep my logistics sidearm, or I would like my uplink bonus expanded to function until I switch suits, rather than until I die.
That's all for now, I think.
It would seem like wisdom, but for the warning in my heart...
CCP BLOWOUT FOR CPM1
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headbust
SVER True Blood
Dark Taboo
72
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Posted - 2014.07.16 15:56:00 -
[3] - Quote
so caldari scouts would have 5 highs do you know how many super shield caldari and super armor amarr we r going to see.. yup were dead
a scout = once you turn your back on me you'll never be able to look back
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headbust
SVER True Blood
Dark Taboo
72
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Posted - 2014.07.16 15:58:00 -
[4] - Quote
nvm i see thats advanced suits now
a scout = once you turn your back on me you'll never be able to look back
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Cavani1EE7
The Rainbow Effect
Dark Taboo
151
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Posted - 2014.07.16 16:05:00 -
[5] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Hi all, We want to have this formal discussion and get your input. We believe that the community has wanted to have some say on this issue for some time, and now that I am studying this data in detail, some things brush me the wrong way (or my OCD). Dropsuit Slot LayoutFirst table is Current, next table is proposed, and third tracks the difference in slots between the two. We don't need to do any changes to these layouts right now. However, with PG/CPU increases for the Assault class on the horizon, more based on a PG/CPU allotment per slot type, it would be the right timing to swap a high with a low in strategic places, or add missing slots. The new premise is a single matrix of racial high/low arrangements and then tactical choices of the other slots (EQ, SA, W, G). The proposed matrix is also intended to be more thematically in line with EVE Online racial slots. Amarr highest number of low slots Caldari highest number of high slots Gallente equal number of highs and lows, preferring lows Minmatar equal number of highs and lows, preferring highs Moving forward with few changes without changing the whole layout of every dropsuit is certainly on the table as well. The logi sidearm f.ex. There are other "anomalies" that I would love to discuss, such as STD and ADV logi racial differences. Of course if you see some errors, please let us know. Have at it and keep it civil and constructive!
How about cal assault 6/5 
1337
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
207
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Posted - 2014.07.16 16:29:00 -
[6] - Quote
Caldari logis losing a low slot in exchange for an extra equipment slot kills the suit with current cpu levels.
shield based suits are very cpu hungry, energizers require 96 cpu, recharges and extenders also have high requirements
losing that low slot means an equipment slot may have to be empty just to have shields at a point where a scrambler rifle will still two shot you.
Running a caldari scout as a logi will be more effective than running a caldari logi as a logi unless i an really focused on using 2 extra pieces of equipment on my squishy, slow moving, no sidearm, poorly scanning, slow shield recharging, larger hit boxed, more expensive, death trap.
why run Cal logi instead of Cal scout?
Put 4 proto equips in the slots of the proposed Cal logi and see what you are left with in your other slots. It's not pretty. |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
444
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Posted - 2014.07.16 16:34:00 -
[7] - Quote
Caldari assault typically need a CPU mod to fit their shield tanks. With only one low slot at std and adv, will the CPU increase be enough to cover the inability to fit a CPU mod when using a shield regulator? |
shaman oga
Nexus Balusa Horizon
2487
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 17:19:00 -
[8] - Quote
Finally STD gal logi will be a useful suit.
I've spent a part of my SP on shotgun prof, but if you keep it like that, i will consider to bring min assault from 3 to 5 next week, but i still think that the bonus is not worth and i have tons of minmatar LP.
PSN: ogamega
"Dust is full of communist who despise people with enough isk to buy expensive items"
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Appia Nappia
1011
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Posted - 2014.07.16 17:19:00 -
[9] - Quote
Cal suits are severely lacking CPU to fit high-slot modules.
I like the slot layouts, i just hope they can having the fitting flexibility to actually use them all.
Secretly Appia Vibbia
If you can read my signature... I'm on the wrong alt.
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ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
3130
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Posted - 2014.07.16 17:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
Slot progression in dropsuits between tiers is too pronounced for medium frames. Especially for classes like Logistics.
Please Rattati... seriously consider a pseudo-tiercide approach to this to make STD/ADV suits more viable against PRO suits. Even if PRO gear is less worth its price tag, it still will always have a place.
Option 1: All tiers have the same number of slots, with progressive CPU/PG. STD suits can fit the same number of modules, just of less quality. This helps even out the power creep in dropsuit tiers and makes the game FAR less about level 5 or go home.
Option 2: Reduce the module layout progression to 1 module per tier. Such that you go from 5 STD to 6 ADV to 7 PRO. Moving away from this 4 to 6 to 8 that is currently proposed for Logistics suits and 4 to 5 to 7 that is being proposed for Assaults. Make the medium frame progression similar to how it is for light and heavy suits.
Option 1 I think is vastly superior though and would help the NPE if new players could feel they are close to, but not quite, as powerful as veteran players. |
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Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
34
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Posted - 2014.07.16 17:34:00 -
[11] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Hi all,
Caldari highest number of high slots
Minmatar equal number of highs and lows, preferring highs
No... Why do you want to do that ??
Ok, Caldari has the "most-shield-tanking-fit", but it doesN'T NEED to have 5 hight slots... for 2 low...
The Minmatar is faster, and with our caldari (yes, I'm caldari assault) we can have a catalyser to become as fast as the minmatar is... AND have an armor repair + armor plate // dampener + reactive plate....
The worst thing is for the Basic and the Advanced one....
1 low slot ? Are you serious ?
IF you want to keep those slots, GIVE a PASSIVE ARMOR REPAIR to Caldari Assaults !
We need repair, you want to remove a low slot, give an armor repair... On my basic, I've 6hp/s and a bit armor...
So..... I'll have to remove and haven't any repair ? Joke please....
I love your work, you have made a lot of good things, but that... that's NOT what should be the Caldari Assault... NOT
Or, if you want not to change for the basic one, do the same thing like the Gallente
STA : 3/1
ADV : 3/2
PRO : 4/3
Please, Rattati, change your table, don't do that... don't do that...
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4352
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Posted - 2014.07.16 17:37:00 -
[12] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:Slot progression in dropsuits between tiers is too pronounced for medium frames. Especially for classes like Logistics.
Please Rattati... seriously consider a pseudo-tiercide approach to this to make STD/ADV suits more viable against PRO suits. Even if PRO gear is less worth its price tag, it still will always have a place.
Option 1: All tiers have the same number of slots, with progressive CPU/PG. STD suits can fit the same number of modules, just of less quality. This helps even out the power creep in dropsuit tiers and makes the game FAR less about level 5 or go home.
Option 2: Reduce the module layout progression to 1 module per tier. Such that you go from 5 STD to 6 ADV to 7 PRO. Moving away from this 4 to 6 to 8 that is currently proposed for Logistics suits and 4 to 5 to 7 that is being proposed for Assaults. Make the medium frame progression similar to how it is for light and heavy suits.
Option 1 I think is vastly superior though and would help the NPE if new players could feel they are close to, but not quite, as powerful as veteran players.
I also agree that medium frame Amarr suits would benefit from a 2/5 layout to better reinforce their high buffer armor tank style.
I hear you, but I want to get started on actual layout standardization first.
Option 1 has merit, but is too drastic a change.
Option 2 could be done, but these are the current progressions, we are actually not proposing different totals of slots per role per tier. These are the reality, i.e. the 4-6-8 for Logis etc.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Boot Booter
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
691
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Posted - 2014.07.16 17:52:00 -
[13] - Quote
Killer's Coys wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:
Caldari highest number of high slots
Minmatar equal number of highs and lows, preferring highs
No... Why do you want to do that ?? Ok, Caldari has the "most-shield-tanking-fit", but it doesN'T NEED to have 5 hight slots... for 2 low... The Minmatar is faster, and with our caldari (yes, I'm caldari assault) we can have a catalyser to become as fast as the minmatar is... AND have an armor repair + armor plate // dampener + reactive plate.... The worst thing is for the Basic and the Advanced one.... 1 low slot ? Are you serious ? IF you want to keep those slots, GIVE a PASSIVE ARMOR REPAIR to Caldari Assaults ! We need repair, you want to remove a low slot, give an armor repair... On my basic, I've 6hp/s and a bit armor... So..... I'll have to remove and haven't any repair ? Joke please.... I love your work, you have made a lot of good things, but that... that's NOT what should be the Caldari Assault... NOT Or, if you want not to change for the basic one, do the same thing like the Gallente STA : 3/1 ADV : 3/2 PRO : 4/3 Please, Rattati, change your table, don't do that... don't do that...
As a minmatar assault I want to say this. A 5/2 layout is always what the cal assault should've had. You will be able to achieve over 600 shield and have a recharger as well. You don't need the lows slots. Try out this fit for the cal assault
4x shield extender
1x shield energizer
1x CPU mod
1x reactive
It'll be awesome, really.
Thanks Rattati for fixing my min slit layout 
What happened to the repair tool glow?
Why won't CCP answer?
Conspiracy?
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
2943
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 17:56:00 -
[14] - Quote
o/
As far as Scouts are concerned, nothing here stands out as problematic.
Should work fine.
Shoot scout with yes...
- Ripley Riley
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Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
34
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Posted - 2014.07.16 17:59:00 -
[15] - Quote
Boot Booter wrote:As a minmatar assault I want to say this. A 5/2 layout is always what the cal assault should've had. You will be able to achieve over 600 shield and have a recharger as well. You don't need the lows slots. Try out this fit for the cal assault 4x shield extender 1x shield energizer 1x CPU mod 1x reactive It'll be awesome, really. Thanks Rattati for fixing my min slit layout
The idea is ok
But, after 1.8, after the dropsuit command respe, I've choosed the Caldari Assault because the suit had (still has until Hotfix C) 4HS and 3LS
If I wanted to have 5HS and 2LS, I'ld choose the Minmatar.
I'll s**k because I would have choosed a fit which willn't be lika I wanted... |
Benjamin Ciscko
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
2489
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 18:03:00 -
[16] - Quote
Yay 4/3 Winmatar assault finally.
Tanker/Logi
0 The number of 7ucks given
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ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
3132
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 18:04:00 -
[17] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:Slot progression in dropsuits between tiers is too pronounced for medium frames. Especially for classes like Logistics.
Please Rattati... seriously consider a pseudo-tiercide approach to this to make STD/ADV suits more viable against PRO suits. Even if PRO gear is less worth its price tag, it still will always have a place.
Option 1: All tiers have the same number of slots, with progressive CPU/PG. STD suits can fit the same number of modules, just of less quality. This helps even out the power creep in dropsuit tiers and makes the game FAR less about level 5 or go home.
Option 2: Reduce the module layout progression to 1 module per tier. Such that you go from 5 STD to 6 ADV to 7 PRO. Moving away from this 4 to 6 to 8 that is currently proposed for Logistics suits and 4 to 5 to 7 that is being proposed for Assaults. Make the medium frame progression similar to how it is for light and heavy suits.
Option 1 I think is vastly superior though and would help the NPE if new players could feel they are close to, but not quite, as powerful as veteran players.
I also agree that medium frame Amarr suits would benefit from a 2/5 layout to better reinforce their high buffer armor tank style. I hear you, but I want to get started on actual layout standardization first. Option 1 has merit, but is too drastic a change. Option 2 could be done, but these are the current progressions, we are actually not proposing different totals of slots per role per tier. These are the reality, i.e. the 4-6-8 for Logis etc.
I understand waiting on Option 2... but man... seriously consider why is it that Scouts and Sentinels are +1 slot per tier but Logis are +2 slots per tier? I can't imagine ever using an advanced logistics suit because the power differential between ADV and PRO logi is quite large when its 2 slots AND reduced CPU/PG.
Additional slots at STD/ADV, even if you don't want to touch CPU and PG would be help immensely...
Also consider that, at any tier, Scouts, Assaults, and Sentinel all have full weaponry slots. This allows them to do their job relatively as effectively at any Tier. An HMG is still and HMG whether its on a STD vs PRO Sentintel. Logi's on the other hand have equipment slot progression. Making lower tier suits significantly less useful, once again, than their PRO counterparts. You may want to consider giving all tiers of Logi suits the same number of equipment slots to reinforce the idea that they are equipment focused support suits.
Here is something for you to consider, it was a dilemma I had a while back. I have a PRO Amarr Logi and I wanted to work my way into Min Logi for the rep bonus. However..
At ADV, Min Logi only has 3 slots... and so does my PRO Amarr Logi... this means that in no way ever would I prefer to use an ADV Min Logi over my PRO Amarr. While that might sound like it makes sense (PRO should always be better than ADV right?) what it really means is that I have no incentive to skill into any other logi suit until I can get the 2.5 million SP needed to get it to level 5. That price is so large, it likely means i'll never bother getting another logi suit, i'll focus on weaponry and tank upgrades instead. This really hurts a good portion of the game for me (the desire to try new suits and playstyles). |
Y-BLOCK
BioCyberDevelopment
11
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Posted - 2014.07.16 18:28:00 -
[18] - Quote
Changing the slot layout is all good & well when u r doing it w/transparency & with player input as u r; however, this would definately call for a dropsuit command respec. |
Boot Booter
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
692
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 18:31:00 -
[19] - Quote
Killer's Coys wrote:Boot Booter wrote:As a minmatar assault I want to say this. A 5/2 layout is always what the cal assault should've had. You will be able to achieve over 600 shield and have a recharger as well. You don't need the lows slots. Try out this fit for the cal assault 4x shield extender 1x shield energizer 1x CPU mod 1x reactive It'll be awesome, really. Thanks Rattati for fixing my min slit layout The idea is ok But, after 1.8, after the dropsuit command respe, I've choosed the Caldari Assault because the suit had (still has until Hotfix C) 4HS and 3LS If I wanted to have 5HS and 2LS, I'ld choose the Minmatar. I'll s**k because I would have choosed a fit which willn't be lika I wanted... EDIT : And at the moment I don't have to fit a CPU mod, So I'll lose an other low slot to fit shield ? And ... lose a BASIC armor plate (85HP) to fit a COMPLEXE shield extender (66), I think I'm a bit f*cked
I understand, but you should've have chosen your suit based on philosophy ie Caldari are shield tankers. Maybe you didn't know, which is something that CCP could explain better.
Trust me though, it won't suck by any means. Yes you may have a little less HP total but you'll have the fastest regenerating HP pool of assaults. You might not have to fit a CPU mod but I recommend you do so you can put a beast mode energizer on.
Oh and by the way, a complex shield is far better than a basic armor for Caldari. Why? Because the shield will regen much faster and will not slow you down. Speed and strafe is key to working a shield tank.
What happened to the repair tool glow?
Why won't CCP answer?
Conspiracy?
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Boot Booter
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
692
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 18:38:00 -
[20] - Quote
Y-BLOCK wrote:Changing the slot layout is all good & well when u r doing it w/transparency & with player input as u r; however, this would definately call for a dropsuit command respec.
No. This mentality is sickening. If people would pick their suits based on the role and racial fitting philosophy this respec thing would never arise. What you are asking for is just a first class flight to the next FOTM.
All Rattati is doing here is driving fittings towards their eve philosophy.
I've been minmatar assault since it was created because I preferred the idea of a speed based versatile assault suit specializing. This is finally being realized.
What happened to the repair tool glow?
Why won't CCP answer?
Conspiracy?
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Stefan Stahl
Seituoda Taskforce Command
683
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Posted - 2014.07.16 18:42:00 -
[21] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:pseudo-tiercide. I hear you, but I want to get started on actual layout standardization first. Option 1 has merit, but is too drastic a change. Option 2 could be done, but these are the current progressions, we are actually not proposing different totals of slots per role per tier. These are the reality, i.e. the 4-6-8 for Logis etc. Can you please put this on your list and draw exclamation marks and explosion lines and little heart-shapes around it so you really do come back to it in a future patch?
I agree with these changes for now, but I'm seriously missing the normalization of the progression here. It's one of the key features that will improve Dust 514. |
Jadd Hatchen
Kinda New here
617
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 18:46:00 -
[22] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Hi all, We want to have this formal discussion and get your input. We believe that the community has wanted to have some say on this issue for some time, and now that I am studying this data in detail, some things brush me the wrong way (or my OCD). Dropsuit Slot LayoutFirst table is Current, next table is proposed, and third tracks the difference in slots between the two. We don't need to do any changes to these layouts right now. However, with PG/CPU increases for the Assault class on the horizon, more based on a PG/CPU allotment per slot type, it would be the right timing to swap a high with a low in strategic places, or add missing slots. The new premise is a single matrix of racial high/low arrangements and then tactical choices of the other slots (EQ, SA, W, G). The proposed matrix is also intended to be more thematically in line with EVE Online racial slots. Amarr highest number of low slots Caldari highest number of high slots Gallente equal number of highs and lows, preferring lows Minmatar equal number of highs and lows, preferring highs Moving forward with few changes without changing the whole layout of every dropsuit is certainly on the table as well. The logi sidearm f.ex. There are other "anomalies" that I would love to discuss, such as STD and ADV logi racial differences. Of course if you see some errors, please let us know. Have at it and keep it civil and constructive!
This all makes sense to me... DO IT!
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Jadd Hatchen
Kinda New here
617
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Posted - 2014.07.16 18:52:00 -
[23] - Quote
Leeroy Gannarsein wrote:Well, I'd like a 2/5 layout for Amarr Assault; I don't like that we share a layout with the Gallente Assault; makes the differences in the two suits far less pronounced.
I very much want to keep my logistics sidearm, or I would like my uplink bonus expanded to function until I switch suits, rather than until I die.
That's all for now, I think.
The sidearm was taken away from all of the other logi-suits back in beta to make a difference between playing logi and playing assault. Why they left it on the Amarr was dumb as it easily makes the amarr logi more powerful and more desireable than the rest. I agree that the bonus should be fixed to continue working as long as you don't switch suits upon death or refitting at a supply depot.
As for "sharing" slot layouts with the Gallente, it's done that way because in FW Amarr and Caldari are aligned against Gallente and Minmatar... This there needs to be balance between those two alliances. But even with the same slot layout, they are different suits due to the bonuses... Amarr get armor tanking bonuses while Galente get armor repairing bonuses. Similarly for the Caldari and Minmatar, Caldari get shield tanking bonuses, while the Minmatar get Shield regeneration bonuses. Or at least that's how it's supposed to translate from the equivalent EVE Online ship racial bonuses.
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Jadd Hatchen
Kinda New here
617
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Posted - 2014.07.16 18:54:00 -
[24] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:Caldari logis losing a low slot in exchange for an extra equipment slot kills the suit with current cpu levels.
shield based suits are very cpu hungry, energizers require 96 cpu, recharges and extenders also have high requirements
losing that low slot means an equipment slot may have to be empty just to have shields at a point where a scrambler rifle will still two shot you.
Running a caldari scout as a logi will be more effective than running a caldari logi as a logi unless i an really focused on using 2 extra pieces of equipment on my squishy, slow moving, no sidearm, poorly scanning, slow shield recharging, larger hit boxed, more expensive, death trap.
why run Cal logi instead of Cal scout?
Put 4 proto equips in the slots of the proposed Cal logi and see what you are left with in your other slots. It's not pretty.
The assumption is that they will rebalance the PG and CPU on suits that get slot changes as loosing/gaining slots would necessitate this also. |
RedPencil
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
51
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Posted - 2014.07.16 18:55:00 -
[25] - Quote
 So sad.....
Rattati, your table blows my mind. If it isn't because I want overheat reduction, I'm defiantly not gonna pick Assoult over Scout or Logi.
* Not happy with a new layout on Ama assault. They need 2 Damage mod to bring armor damage close to 90%, now you rip 1 and move it to low. Better tank and inline? Maybe. Lost damage to compete with other faction. Yes.
* Why Adv and Std Assult have the same slot number as Scout? Assult have more HP but scout is faster, smaller, hard to detect, can see any suit except scout, and 2 equip. Even 1 slot difference in proto doesn't give much advantage when compare those suit.
* Remove Logi sidearm is ok to prevent slay logi. As support role, they should have weapon to protect themselves not a full capable of killing. However, Ama and Cal logo bonus supposed to remain as long as they stay in logo suit not because they die.
* Run scout if I want to slay. Run Logi if I want to support and gain WP. Then what is a provost of running Assault? to die perhaps... 
Beware paper cut M[;..;]M
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Jadd Hatchen
Kinda New here
617
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Posted - 2014.07.16 18:57:00 -
[26] - Quote
Killer's Coys wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:
Caldari highest number of high slots
Minmatar equal number of highs and lows, preferring highs
No... Why do you want to do that ?? Ok, Caldari has the "most-shield-tanking-fit", but it doesN'T NEED to have 5 hight slots... for 2 low... The Minmatar is faster, and with our caldari (yes, I'm caldari assault) we can have a catalyser to become as fast as the minmatar is... AND have an armor repair + armor plate // dampener + reactive plate.... The worst thing is for the Basic and the Advanced one.... 1 low slot ? Are you serious ? IF you want to keep those slots, GIVE a PASSIVE ARMOR REPAIR to Caldari Assaults ! We need repair, you want to remove a low slot, give an armor repair... On my basic, I've 6hp/s and a bit armor... So..... I'll have to remove and haven't any repair ? Joke please.... I love your work, you have made a lot of good things, but that... that's NOT what should be the Caldari Assault... NOT Or, if you want not to change for the basic one, do the same thing like the Gallente STA : 3/1 ADV : 3/2 PRO : 4/3 Please, Rattati, change your table, don't do that... don't do that...
i don't agree, the Caldari was never meant to be an armor tanking race.
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Jadd Hatchen
Kinda New here
619
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Posted - 2014.07.16 19:04:00 -
[27] - Quote
Boot Booter wrote:Y-BLOCK wrote:Changing the slot layout is all good & well when u r doing it w/transparency & with player input as u r; however, this would definately call for a dropsuit command respec. No. This mentality is sickening. If people would pick their suits based on the role and racial fitting philosophy this respec thing would never arise. What you are asking for is just a first class flight to the next FOTM. All Rattati is doing here is driving fittings towards their eve philosophy. I've been minmatar assault since it was created because I preferred the idea of a speed based versatile assault suit. This is finally being realized.
Actually I've been making all my skill choices solely on the racial/storyline philosophy ever since beta. That's why my favorite job in most FPS's is to pilot air vehicles, but gues what I don't do in this game? I don't pilot air vehicles because there are still NO MINMATAR VEHICLES AT ALL IN THIS GAME!!!!!!!
Compared to the Amarr Heavy, the Minmatar heavy is crappy, but I'm still using the Minmatar one instead. One day they may fix that but until then I'm stuck with a crappy suit.
As for the respec, I still think that CCP should just admit the game is in a state of "development" now and give a free respec every year and offer paid AUR repsecs once every 3 months. This will not only stop people from whining about changes that are necessary, but it would also serve to point out to CCP the instant that they fubar something and everyone switches to exploit it. Then CCP will be more likely to fix/nerf such mistakes sooner rather than later and they will have definite statistics to back it up
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Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
34
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Posted - 2014.07.16 19:09:00 -
[28] - Quote
Boot Booter wrote:
I understand, but you should've have chosen your suit based on philosophy ie Caldari are shield tankers. Maybe you didn't know, which is something that CCP could explain better.
Trust me though, it won't suck by any means. Yes you may have a little less HP total but you'll have the fastest regenerating HP pool of assaults. You might not have to fit a CPU mod but I recommend you do so you can put a beast mode energizer on.
Oh and by the way, a complex shield is far better than a basic armor for Caldari. Why? Because the shield will regen much faster and will not slow you down. Speed and strafe is key to working a shield tank.
=> Complexe shield extender and complexe shield energizer take a lot of CPU...
With 2 complexe shield extender, ( +1 optimized damager, 1 basic damager) (and 2 basics mod, 1 optimized for low slot) I've just 2CPU free..... (without CPU upgrade)
So, Imagine with 4 extender and 1 energizer ? I'll need a complexe CPU upgrade ... Nooooooo please !
If I got enought CPU, ok, but without that buff, It will be an horrible thing...
For example : I almost play with a basic suit, I'll have 1 low slot, I'ld like have this slot to fit an other thing that a CPU upgrade... I think this is the minimum...
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
446
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Posted - 2014.07.16 19:25:00 -
[29] - Quote
Boot Booter wrote:Killer's Coys wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:
Caldari highest number of high slots
Minmatar equal number of highs and lows, preferring highs
No... Why do you want to do that ?? Ok, Caldari has the "most-shield-tanking-fit", but it doesN'T NEED to have 5 hight slots... for 2 low... The Minmatar is faster, and with our caldari (yes, I'm caldari assault) we can have a catalyser to become as fast as the minmatar is... AND have an armor repair + armor plate // dampener + reactive plate.... The worst thing is for the Basic and the Advanced one.... 1 low slot ? Are you serious ? IF you want to keep those slots, GIVE a PASSIVE ARMOR REPAIR to Caldari Assaults ! We need repair, you want to remove a low slot, give an armor repair... On my basic, I've 6hp/s and a bit armor... So..... I'll have to remove and haven't any repair ? Joke please.... I love your work, you have made a lot of good things, but that... that's NOT what should be the Caldari Assault... NOT Or, if you want not to change for the basic one, do the same thing like the Gallente STA : 3/1 ADV : 3/2 PRO : 4/3 Please, Rattati, change your table, don't do that... don't do that... As a minmatar assault I want to say this. A 5/2 layout is always what the cal assault should've had. You will be able to achieve over 600 shield and have a recharger as well. You don't need the lows slots. Try out this fit for the cal assault 4x shield extender 1x shield energizer 1x CPU mod 1x reactive It'll be awesome, really. Thanks Rattati for fixing my min slit layout
If that works for you great. But a 5 second delay? An 11 second depleted delay? No thanks
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BlazeXYZ
xCosmic Voidx
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
43
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Posted - 2014.07.16 19:29:00 -
[30] - Quote
If i'm right the amarr assault will have 1042.5 armor with 5 lows.
The Blazing Intellect Machine
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Viktor Hadah Jr
Negative-Impact
Gentlemen's.Club
4615
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Posted - 2014.07.16 19:38:00 -
[31] - Quote
How about lowering std scout equipment to 1 instead of 2. Why should standard scouts have as many equipment slots as standard logi.
Earn 500Mil ISK(Updated)
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Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
34
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Posted - 2014.07.16 19:41:00 -
[32] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:
If that works for you great. But a 5 second delay? An 11 second depleted delay? No thanks
Lol, yes, you're right
You have your shield, but your shield has an amazing delay.... 5 seconds....
and 5 seconds + 7%x4 for depleted : loooooooool
That's strange... the 7% aren't combined
... And, with 1 CPU upgrade, I couldn't fit some shield regulator... so I couldn't be a REAL Caldari...
Strange... more shield, but more time waiting to have our shield back...... grrrr |
Ghost Kaisar
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
6074
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 19:43:00 -
[33] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:Boot Booter wrote:Killer's Coys wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:
Caldari highest number of high slots
Minmatar equal number of highs and lows, preferring highs
No... Why do you want to do that ?? Ok, Caldari has the "most-shield-tanking-fit", but it doesN'T NEED to have 5 hight slots... for 2 low... The Minmatar is faster, and with our caldari (yes, I'm caldari assault) we can have a catalyser to become as fast as the minmatar is... AND have an armor repair + armor plate // dampener + reactive plate.... The worst thing is for the Basic and the Advanced one.... 1 low slot ? Are you serious ? IF you want to keep those slots, GIVE a PASSIVE ARMOR REPAIR to Caldari Assaults ! We need repair, you want to remove a low slot, give an armor repair... On my basic, I've 6hp/s and a bit armor... So..... I'll have to remove and haven't any repair ? Joke please.... I love your work, you have made a lot of good things, but that... that's NOT what should be the Caldari Assault... NOT Or, if you want not to change for the basic one, do the same thing like the Gallente STA : 3/1 ADV : 3/2 PRO : 4/3 Please, Rattati, change your table, don't do that... don't do that... As a minmatar assault I want to say this. A 5/2 layout is always what the cal assault should've had. You will be able to achieve over 600 shield and have a recharger as well. You don't need the lows slots. Try out this fit for the cal assault 4x shield extender 1x shield energizer 1x CPU mod 1x reactive It'll be awesome, really. Thanks Rattati for fixing my min slit layout If that works for you great. But a 5 second delay? An 11 second depleted delay? No thanks
That's what regulators are for.
Why dont you try running 2x reg, 4x shield, 1x recharge (after CPU buff)
That suit will have fantastic regen for its health pool
I've beer understood running armor on Cal suits. Shield suits brah
How I Imagine I look when running Minmatar Scout
PSN: EVL_Elgost105
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Francois Sanchez
What The French
Red Whines.
38
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Posted - 2014.07.16 19:45:00 -
[34] - Quote
Hey Rattati I like what you propose, however I noticed a little mistake in the commando table (maybe somebody has spotted it , but I didn't see a post about this), the commando doesn't have a secondary weapon and 2 light weapons, he can replace a light by a secondary, so the number of slots is 7-6-5 (P-A-S) |
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11039
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Posted - 2014.07.16 19:55:00 -
[35] - Quote
Leeroy Gannarsein wrote:Well, I'd like a 2/5 layout for Amarr Assault; I don't like that we share a layout with the Gallente Assault; makes the differences in the two suits far less pronounced.
I very much want to keep my logistics sidearm, or I would like my uplink bonus expanded to function until I switch suits, rather than until I die.
That's all for now, I think.
2/5 on Amarr Assault would pretty much kill the Gallente Assault.
You could make a faster, more regenerative and more armored suit than a Gallente Assault.
Unless you move modules from lows to highs, buff damage mods, etc', that would kill the Gallente Assault and cement the Amarr Assault as the superior armor based Assault suit.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
34
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Posted - 2014.07.16 19:56:00 -
[36] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:
That's what regulators are for.
Why dont you try running 2x reg, 4x shield, 1x recharge (after CPU buff)
That suit will have fantastic regen for its health pool
I've beer understood running armor on Cal suits. Shield suits brah
That's ok... But need a CPU buf, if the buff isn't enought, the suit will be bad... |
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11042
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Posted - 2014.07.16 20:03:00 -
[37] - Quote
Rattati, please shift around module locations at the same time.
It might not seem like a big deal, but trust me when I say this, 5 low slots is EXTREMELY powerful when you consider just how many modules are located in low slots.
You WILL see the Amarr Assault as the #1 Assault suit on the battlefield if they get 2/5 and the modules aren't relocated.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Boot Booter
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
692
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Posted - 2014.07.16 20:08:00 -
[38] - Quote
Killer's Coys wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:
That's what regulators are for.
Why dont you try running 2x reg, 4x shield, 1x recharge (after CPU buff)
That suit will have fantastic regen for its health pool
I've beer understood running armor on Cal suits. Shield suits brah
That's ok... But need a CPU buf, if the buff isn't enought, the suit will be bad...
Hey hint for you guys. Whether by intention or not, the depleted delay can be mostly disregarded because it only takes effect when a single damage source (Flux grenade for example) drops your shield to zero. Any subsequent damage will reset delay to regular delay.
But sure fit some regulators if you wish. Oh and by the way my min assault has had this 5/2 slot layout forever and a 6/8 base shield delay. I don't wanna hear you complain about 5/11 delay with 600 shield. I think Caldari philosophy is high shield recharge and not ever letting shields hit zero. Minmatar on the other hand prefers shield regulation at lower shield recharge rates. Yet another reason this slot layout swap makes sense.
What happened to the repair tool glow?
Why won't CCP answer?
Conspiracy?
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Dj grammer
New Age Empire.
General Tso's Alliance
287
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Posted - 2014.07.16 20:11:00 -
[39] - Quote
That 5 high 4 low Minmatar. I would be in for a 9 slot High Low for each suit
why ccp?
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11042
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Posted - 2014.07.16 20:13:00 -
[40] - Quote
BTW Rattati, I'm pretty sure the UI doesn't support 6 low slots.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
1441
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Posted - 2014.07.16 20:16:00 -
[41] - Quote
love the ninja min ass buff, and think cal will benefit as well :D
can min suits get their 1 hp/s back again?
"Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
Kills-Archduke Ferd1nand
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Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
6326
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Posted - 2014.07.16 20:17:00 -
[42] - Quote
It's interesting, absolutely, but I have a feeling the disparity in module placement is going to shine like a lightbulb. I have a feeling that a lot of Minmatar Players are going to be hurting for something to put in the high slots if the resources (PG/CPU) are too low as shield/damage modules are usually very very costly.
Useful Links
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Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
34
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Posted - 2014.07.16 20:17:00 -
[43] - Quote
However....
I think I'll make conclusions after posting how many HP and PG/CPU will have the (Caldari) Assaults
If (for example) I'll get +/-220HP passive armor on my Caldari, I'll love it  |
Boot Booter
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
692
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Posted - 2014.07.16 20:23:00 -
[44] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Rattati, please shift around module locations at the same time.
It might not seem like a big deal, but trust me when I say this, 5 low slots is EXTREMELY powerful when you consider just how many modules are located in low slots.
You WILL see the Amarr Assault as the #1 Assault suit on the battlefield if they get 2/5 and the modules aren't relocated.
Not necessarily. It depends on their PG limitation. Remember how PG intensive SR are. EWar modules can be mostly ignored on the assault. Remaining modules are fairly PG intensive.
I'd make use of at least 2 good shield extenders on the gal assault to augment the high regen armor.
With that said I see your point. This is why I have advocated a small bonus towards assault regen based on racial preference.
How about...
Caldari = shield recharge/energizer module fitting bonus
Gallente = armor repair module fitting bonus
Minmatar = shield regulator module fitting bonus
Amarr = armor plate fitting bonus? (this one is iffy though)
This would at least solve shield recharge/energizer module fitting concerns for Caldari as well.
What happened to the repair tool glow?
Why won't CCP answer?
Conspiracy?
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
15941
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Posted - 2014.07.16 20:42:00 -
[45] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:BTW Rattati, I'm pretty sure the UI doesn't support 6 low slots.
I don't think the SDE supports it...
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Minmatar Sentinel =// Unlocked
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11043
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Posted - 2014.07.16 20:45:00 -
[46] - Quote
I would be forced to shield tank my Gallente Assault if Amarr had 2/5, because I couldn't compete at all with armor, regenerative or not lol
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4365
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Posted - 2014.07.16 20:45:00 -
[47] - Quote
typo in the top table, the real tables didn't have it
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11043
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Posted - 2014.07.16 20:47:00 -
[48] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:typo in the top table, the real tables didn't have it
I had a feeling that was the case.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4365
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Posted - 2014.07.16 20:57:00 -
[49] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:typo in the top table, the real tables didn't have it I had a feeling that was the case.
Thanks for pointing it out. Still 3 and 6 is awesome!
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
1448
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Posted - 2014.07.16 20:59:00 -
[50] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Cat Merc wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:typo in the top table, the real tables didn't have it I had a feeling that was the case. Thanks for pointing it out. Still 3 and 6 is awesome!
3 and 6...id love that 
6 complex armor reps+3 complex shields?
Hellz yeah!
"Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
Kills-Archduke Ferd1nand
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11043
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Posted - 2014.07.16 21:00:00 -
[51] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Cat Merc wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:typo in the top table, the real tables didn't have it I had a feeling that was the case. Thanks for pointing it out. Still 3 and 6 is awesome! 3 and 6...id love that 6 complex armor reps+3 complex shields? Hellz yeah!
6 complex armor reps to repair... what armor?
That's like having 1000hp/s with 100hp lol
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11043
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Posted - 2014.07.16 21:02:00 -
[52] - Quote
Rattati, my mind is blowing up trying to figure out competitive Gal Assault configurations when Amarr Assault has 2/5 slots.
Nothing I can build is competitive, dual tank, armor tank, armor repair, whatever.
And I KNOW how to build armor suits, I have analyzed the ever living crap out of armor since Uprising 1.0 along with Arkena Wyrnspire to create the armor buff thread back before 1.4.
It's really a matter of make high slot utility modules useful, or Gallente Assault will be useless.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
1448
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 21:04:00 -
[53] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Cat Merc wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:typo in the top table, the real tables didn't have it I had a feeling that was the case. Thanks for pointing it out. Still 3 and 6 is awesome! 3 and 6...id love that 6 complex armor reps+3 complex shields? Hellz yeah! 6 complex armor reps to repair... what armor? That's like having 1000hp/s with 100hp lol
Come on, it'd be pretty badass!!
ok fine, id actually run 1 complex plate, 5 complex reppers
41.25 hp/s
300+ armor
"Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
Kills-Archduke Ferd1nand
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
1448
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 21:05:00 -
[54] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Rattati, my mind is blowing up trying to figure out competitive Gal Assault configurations when Amarr Assault has 2/5 slots.
Nothing I can build is competitive, dual tank, armor tank, armor repair, whatever.
And I KNOW how to build armor suits, I have analyzed the ever living crap out of armor since Uprising 1.0 along with Arkena Wyrnspire to create the armor buff thread back before 1.4.
It's really a matter of make high slot utility modules useful, or Gallente Assault will be useless.
Damage mod buff would fix that. Make them 3/5/7, and your problem is solved
one shield extender for extra buffer and reaction time, rest are damage mods
"Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
Kills-Archduke Ferd1nand
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11043
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Posted - 2014.07.16 21:06:00 -
[55] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Come on, it'd be pretty badass!! ok fine, id actually run 1 complex plate, 5 complex reppers 41.25 hp/s 300+ armor
Would kill that armor before you even get one rep cycle out.
3/3 plate/reps would probably be best all around.
2/4 plate/rep OR rep/plate for more situational fits.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11043
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 21:07:00 -
[56] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Rattati, my mind is blowing up trying to figure out competitive Gal Assault configurations when Amarr Assault has 2/5 slots.
Nothing I can build is competitive, dual tank, armor tank, armor repair, whatever.
And I KNOW how to build armor suits, I have analyzed the ever living crap out of armor since Uprising 1.0 along with Arkena Wyrnspire to create the armor buff thread back before 1.4.
It's really a matter of make high slot utility modules useful, or Gallente Assault will be useless. Damage mod buff would fix that. Make them 3/5/7, and your problem is solved one shield extender for extra buffer and reaction time, rest are damage mods
Due to stacking penalties, it would not solve anything.
Amarr can fit one extender, one damage mod, and boom.
Almost as effective in high slots, but VASTLY superior in low slots.
We're talking an extra 9.375hp/s, 145HP, 1m/s speed, a damp, etc'.
All of these or huge bonuses, when 5% damage in comparison is... not.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4367
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Posted - 2014.07.16 21:08:00 -
[57] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Rattati, my mind is blowing up trying to figure out competitive Gal Assault configurations when Amarr Assault has 2/5 slots.
Nothing I can build is competitive, dual tank, armor tank, armor repair, whatever.
And I KNOW how to build armor suits, I have analyzed the ever living crap out of armor since Uprising 1.0 along with Arkena Wyrnspire to create the armor buff thread back before 1.4.
It's really a matter of make high slot utility modules useful, or Gallente Assault will be useless.
I think we need to buff dmg mods a bit.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11043
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Posted - 2014.07.16 21:09:00 -
[58] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Rattati, my mind is blowing up trying to figure out competitive Gal Assault configurations when Amarr Assault has 2/5 slots.
Nothing I can build is competitive, dual tank, armor tank, armor repair, whatever.
And I KNOW how to build armor suits, I have analyzed the ever living crap out of armor since Uprising 1.0 along with Arkena Wyrnspire to create the armor buff thread back before 1.4.
It's really a matter of make high slot utility modules useful, or Gallente Assault will be useless. I think we need to buff dmg mods a bit.
Unless you return them to the 10% of the old days, I don't think that would be enough.
Look above.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
3140
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Posted - 2014.07.16 21:24:00 -
[59] - Quote
Move speed needs to be a faster as well when comparing Amarr and Gallente. Especially considering Amarr have lower base.
We've needed more viable high shields for armor tankers for a long time, that is certainly a problem.
Starting to make me wonder if Kin Cats should, in fact, be a high slot module.... Shield tankers shouldn't really want it and Minnie suits could stack kin cats and shield regs more viably for better speed tanking.
In that case, with buffed damage mods and high slot codebreakers... There could be a place for 3/4 and 2/5.
Also, high base armor repair on Gallente assault could make them quite viable. Changing the Scout gk.0 to 1hp/s and the Assault gk.0 to 3 hp/s could make things very interesting as well. |
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11044
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 21:25:00 -
[60] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:Move speed needs to be considered as well when comparing Amarr and Gallente. Especially considering Amarr have lower base.
We've needed more viable high shields for armor tankers for a long time, that is certainly a problem.
Starting to make me wonder if Kin Cats should, in fact, be a high slot module.... Shield tankers shouldn't really want it and Minnie suits could stack kin cats and shield regs more viably for better speed tanking.
In that case, with buffed damage mods and high slot codebreakers... There could be a place for 3/4 and 2/5.
Also, high base armor repair on Gallente assault could make them quite viable. Changing the Scout gk.0 to 1hp/s and the Assault gk.0 to 3 hp/s could make things very interesting as well.
Meh, that extra HP/s won't make a difference now.
Back when reppers were 6.25hp/s per, it would be huge, but now it's not so hot.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Al the destroyer
Vengeance Unbound
Dark Taboo
163
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Posted - 2014.07.16 21:31:00 -
[61] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:It's interesting, absolutely, but I have a feeling the disparity in module placement is going to shine like a lightbulb. I have a feeling that a lot of Minmatar Players are going to be hurting for something to put in the high slots if the resources (PG/CPU) are too low as shield/damage modules are usually very very costly.
Edit: On the topic of the sidearm removal from the Amarr Logistics - I'd like to re-emphasize that it's imperative we either look at cross-racial skill bonuses for Logistics or consider coding in the support to allow Logistics to retain their bonuses after death if they stay in the same suit. Otherwise, asking for a lot of trouble with this.
^ this PLUS THE A-LOGI NEEDS TO HAVE THE SAME PG AS THE OTHER LOGIS THIS IS IMPORTANT OTHERWISE THERE IS NO REASON FOR USING THE A-LOGI!!!!!
AMERICA! WITHOUT US YOU WOULD HAVE NO ONE TO LOOK UP TO. GET SUM!
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ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
3141
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Posted - 2014.07.16 21:47:00 -
[62] - Quote
Regarding the Amarr Logi:
I am a little disappointed in seeing Amarr Logi lose its sidearm but I remain hopeful that it is to make room for bigger changes. With these changes, Amarr Logi definitely becomes the least desirable of the four until changes are made to the Logistics class as whole. However, no need to discuss all of that here as its been said elsewhere enough times. |
Boot Booter
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
694
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Posted - 2014.07.16 21:48:00 -
[63] - Quote
Moving Kincats to high would be interesting indeed but we may see some 800 armor amarrs running like minmatars. That sounds scary.
@cat Merc.
Man you're so pro gal assault and armor that you forget about the struggle which has always been minmatar. Your suit will be fine; maybe you'll have to get more creative with your fits. There's nothing which ever said gallente need to be just armor tanked. Given their slot layout they should be slightly dual tanked with a preference towards armor, much like the minmatar is towards shield.
I've messed with gk0 assault fits and can get 300 shield 500 armor at 10 hp/s and even threw in a Kincat for fun.
What happened to the repair tool glow?
Why won't CCP answer?
Conspiracy?
|
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
11418
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Posted - 2014.07.16 21:48:00 -
[64] - Quote
Medium suit slot progression is too steep, I know I've went on about it before in my threadnaught, but please make progression only +1 high/low slow per tier; keep the same upper limit for proto, but buff standard and advanced.
You know my feeling regarding the Amarr logi sidearm thing, hopefully the Type-II suits will fill that void; hopefully they will come fairly soon, and won't be pointlessly more expensive.
As for the damage mod thing you mentioned, please make damage mods do 3% basic, 5% enhanced, and 7% complex.
I would also STRONGLY suggest adding new infantry weapon mods similar to damage mods: recoil reduction mods, heat mods, magazine size mods, accuracy mods, etc. They could all use the same skills as damage mods.
Anyway, I like what I see, good work.
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
34
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Posted - 2014.07.16 21:49:00 -
[65] - Quote
When does the topic about futurs HP and PG/CPU for assault suit come ? |
Vulpes Dolosus
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
1710
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 21:49:00 -
[66] - Quote
ADV Cal scout needs the second low slot do dodge scans. I shouldn't have to pull a proto scout suit just to be a scout. Please keep the slot progression as it is. |
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11046
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 21:50:00 -
[67] - Quote
Boot Booter wrote:Moving Kincats to high would be interesting indeed but we may see some 800 armor amarrs running like minmatars. That sounds scary.
@cat Merc.
Man you're so pro gal assault and armor that you forget about the struggle which has always been minmatar. Your suit will be fine; maybe you'll have to get more creative with your fits. There's nothing which ever said gallente need to be just armor tanked. Given their slot layout they should be slightly dual tanked with a preference towards armor, much like the minmatar is towards shield.
I've messed with gk0 assault fits and can get 300 shield 500 armor at 10 hp/s and even threw in a Kincat for fun.
Lmao, the Minmatar is the second best Assault suit.
As far as Gallente, 300 shield and 500 armor at 10hp/s doesn't sound impressive when you consider the fits I can create with new Amarr.
P.S
I don't run bircked Gal Assaults.
I have tried pretty much every fit you can imagine. (Unless it's ridiculous like cardiac regs)
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
11419
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Posted - 2014.07.16 21:53:00 -
[68] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:ADV Cal scout needs the second low slot do dodge scans. I shouldn't have to pull a proto scout suit just to be a scout. Please keep the slot progression as it is.
Yeah, I have to agree with this.
For specifically the ADV Cal scout, please keep the current slot layout.
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11046
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Posted - 2014.07.16 21:53:00 -
[69] - Quote
I also don't think we want to encourage dual tanking.
What would you rather people do, create interesting fits with lots of different toys like kin cats, codebreakers, cardiac regs, etc', OR just stack plates, extenders and repairers?
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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One Eyed King
Land of the BIind
2686
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Posted - 2014.07.16 21:56:00 -
[70] - Quote
The only change that sticks out to me so far is Cal Scout
I would go maybe
3H 1L STD
3H 2L Adv
4H 2L Pro
This way at least Adv can still do enough dampening, otherwise the suit will be severely limited til Proto.
This is how a minja feels
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Boot Booter
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
695
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Posted - 2014.07.16 22:01:00 -
[71] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Boot Booter wrote:Moving Kincats to high would be interesting indeed but we may see some 800 armor amarrs running like minmatars. That sounds scary.
@cat Merc.
Man you're so pro gal assault and armor that you forget about the struggle which has always been minmatar. Your suit will be fine; maybe you'll have to get more creative with your fits. There's nothing which ever said gallente need to be just armor tanked. Given their slot layout they should be slightly dual tanked with a preference towards armor, much like the minmatar is towards shield.
I've messed with gk0 assault fits and can get 300 shield 500 armor at 10 hp/s and even threw in a Kincat for fun. Lmao, the Minmatar is the second best Assault suit. As far as Gallente, 300 shield and 500 armor at 10hp/s doesn't sound impressive when you consider the fits I can create with new Amarr.
Maybe it is post 1.8 because of its bonus. It was easily one of the worst suits between 1.0 and 1.8.
And yes it does sound impressive when you're sprinting 7.86 m/s and have better strafe than amarr. Just admit you are sad cause you love armor as much as you love cat nip and the Amarr are gonna be able to do it better.
What happened to the repair tool glow?
Why won't CCP answer?
Conspiracy?
|
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11046
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 22:03:00 -
[72] - Quote
Boot Booter wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Boot Booter wrote:Moving Kincats to high would be interesting indeed but we may see some 800 armor amarrs running like minmatars. That sounds scary.
@cat Merc.
Man you're so pro gal assault and armor that you forget about the struggle which has always been minmatar. Your suit will be fine; maybe you'll have to get more creative with your fits. There's nothing which ever said gallente need to be just armor tanked. Given their slot layout they should be slightly dual tanked with a preference towards armor, much like the minmatar is towards shield.
I've messed with gk0 assault fits and can get 300 shield 500 armor at 10 hp/s and even threw in a Kincat for fun. Lmao, the Minmatar is the second best Assault suit. As far as Gallente, 300 shield and 500 armor at 10hp/s doesn't sound impressive when you consider the fits I can create with new Amarr. Maybe it is post 1.8 because of its bonus. It was easily one of the worst suits between 1.0 and 1.8. And yes it does sound impressive when you're sprinting 7.86 m/s and have better strafe than amarr. Just admit you are sad cause you love armor as much as you love cat nip and the Amarr are gonna be able to do it better.
7.86m/s?
Unless you dropped an armor plate, which would bring your armor down to 400, it doesn't happen.
Amarr are NOT suppsoed to armor tank "better", they're supposed to have a different kind of armor tank.
Amarr = Buffer
Gallente = Regenerative
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Boot Booter
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
695
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Posted - 2014.07.16 22:04:00 -
[73] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:I also don't think we want to encourage dual tanking.
What would you rather people do, create interesting fits with lots of different toys like kin cats, codebreakers, cardiac regs, etc', OR just stack plates, extenders and repairers?
Well I agree but first, like you said we need more high slot options. Didn't disagree with you there.
Secondly we need a buff to those sort of modules or a big buff to assault base HP.
What happened to the repair tool glow?
Why won't CCP answer?
Conspiracy?
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Boot Booter
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
695
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 22:07:00 -
[74] - Quote
Cat Merc[/quote wrote:
7.86m/s?
Unless you dropped an armor plate, which would bring your armor down to 400, it doesn't happen.
1 complex plate
1 complex ferro
1 complex rep
1 complex kincat
Common man.
What happened to the repair tool glow?
Why won't CCP answer?
Conspiracy?
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11046
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 22:07:00 -
[75] - Quote
If you're going to force me to dual tank, how about reducing my shield delays and increasing my recharge rate?
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11047
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Posted - 2014.07.16 22:11:00 -
[76] - Quote
Boot Booter wrote:Cat Merc wrote:
7.86m/s?
Unless you dropped an armor plate, which would bring your armor down to 400, it doesn't happen.
1 complex plate 1 complex ferro 1 complex rep 1 complex kincat Common man.
Ah, I thought you used Ferroscale only.
Anyway, how about 7.98m/s, 480 armor, and 20hp/s on Amarr?
Because that's what you're opening up with 5 low slots.
Or, how about 747 armor, 7.17m/s, and 20hp/s?
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Boot Booter
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
695
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Posted - 2014.07.16 22:17:00 -
[77] - Quote
I doubt their PG could support 2 kin cats and a SR without sacrificing a low for PG upgrade. I see your point though
The issue lies in the lack of low slots to augment armor tanking. Hmm..
What happened to the repair tool glow?
Why won't CCP answer?
Conspiracy?
|
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11047
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 22:18:00 -
[78] - Quote
Ooops, sorry, proto fits screwed up.
It's 597 HP.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11047
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Posted - 2014.07.16 22:19:00 -
[79] - Quote
Boot Booter wrote:I doubt their PG could support 2 kin cats and a SR without sacrificing a low for PG upgrade. I see your point though
The issue lies in the lack of low slots to augment armor tanking. Hmm..
That's one kin cat, not two.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Toby Flenderson
research lab
556
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 22:20:00 -
[80] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Rattati, my mind is blowing up trying to figure out competitive Gal Assault configurations when Amarr Assault has 2/5 slots.
Nothing I can build is competitive, dual tank, armor tank, armor repair, whatever.
And I KNOW how to build armor suits, I have analyzed the ever living crap out of armor since Uprising 1.0 along with Arkena Wyrnspire to create the armor buff thread back before 1.4.
It's really a matter of make high slot utility modules useful, or Gallente Assault will be useless. I think we need to buff dmg mods a bit.
Any way to further support rep tanking on gallente suits? It seems the Amarr will be able to do it better than gallente with the extra low slot. I'm asking because I can't think of something off of the top of my head other than increasing passive reps which I'm not sure I like |
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11048
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Posted - 2014.07.16 22:22:00 -
[81] - Quote
Toby Flenderson wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Rattati, my mind is blowing up trying to figure out competitive Gal Assault configurations when Amarr Assault has 2/5 slots.
Nothing I can build is competitive, dual tank, armor tank, armor repair, whatever.
And I KNOW how to build armor suits, I have analyzed the ever living crap out of armor since Uprising 1.0 along with Arkena Wyrnspire to create the armor buff thread back before 1.4.
It's really a matter of make high slot utility modules useful, or Gallente Assault will be useless. I think we need to buff dmg mods a bit. Any way to further support rep tanking on gallente suits? It seems the Amarr will be able to do it better than gallente with the extra low slot. I'm asking because I can't think of something off of the top of my head other than increasing passive reps which I'm not sure I like
Eh, increasing passive rep might be good.
It's not like we could brick harder than Amarr using it, since they would have one more low slot.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
6554
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Posted - 2014.07.16 22:23:00 -
[82] - Quote
Boots you dont play this game do you?
do you work for CCP by any chance?
this Gallente active tank, Amarr Armor tank.
If a good Gallente suit requires you only to dual tank then you have a severe issue and choice of judgment.
see you space cowboy...
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11048
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 22:23:00 -
[83] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:Boots you dont play this game do you?
do you work for CCP by any chance?
this Gallente active tank, Amarr Armor tank.
If a good Gallente suit requires you only to dual tank then you have a severe issue and choice of judgment.
While I agree, don't be so harsh on him.
Being CCP is the worst insult imaginable in DUST 
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
3141
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 22:25:00 -
[84] - Quote
High slot kin cats would be a straight buff to Minmatar suits imo. Especially with a new 4/3 slot layout on the assault. You can fit Kin Cats in the highs and regulators in the lows. This would make it a very hit and run kind of suit, perfect for what they want to do. With a high base recharge you could see very viable speed tanked Min Assaults.
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Tesfa Alem
ACME SPECIAL FORCES
RISE of LEGION
160
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Posted - 2014.07.16 22:26:00 -
[85] - Quote
I have to get the bad out of the way so here it goes:
At a quick glance i'm dissapointed that you ignored the vast majority of the logi/ Dust community and insist on removing the Amarr Logi Side arm. I don't like losing a unique suit, and at the ADV level logi its actually left weaker than it was before. Why don-t you just give it another equipment slot at proto level and leave it at that? Its not a rule written in stone that Logis can't (or can) have sidearms, yet its the one trait that clearly distiguishes the suit from the rest. It just makes dust a bit more bland. Its the kind of thing that people in squad chat discuss when something was working perfectly fine, CCP gets rid of it, and people reminisce and wonder why they support a company that gets rid of good content. The Logi dropship and the proposed removal of the ADS (which would have never returned like its black and yellow brother) are solid examples of that. If it aint broke why thow it awayit?
My minmatar logi is remaining the same, and will probably replace the amarr suit i use for putting down uplinks.
My ADV caldari logi is getting another slot so i think i'd like to try that one out, seeing as its more combat oriented than the winmatar for Ambush matches.
I cant comment too much further untill we know what the new base stats (bonuses?) will be for the assault class. They still have less high and low slots as thier logi counter parts, where as i think they should have the same nulber of high/low slots both being classes of the medium frame suit.
Afterall it wasn't the Logi nerfs that stopped the riegn of the slauer logi, it was al those players moved to caldair/gallente scouts with cloaks. I can still be a slayer logi if i don't run equipment and still have a better suit than the assault (as things stand).
Please add the same number of highs and lows to the assault suits as thier corresponding logi brethren.
My bread and butter is with the ADV suits as i run proto rarely (better to fly than to walk and flyings expensive!) so thats where i'm coming from on this one.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
CPM1 Candidate
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11048
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 22:28:00 -
[86] - Quote
Logi dropships were removed because they were simply used as tankier dropships.
Same for Logi LAV's.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
2973
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 22:28:00 -
[87] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:
Starting to make me wonder if Kin Cats should, in fact, be a high slot module....
speedy, brick-tanked "slayer" Scouts <--- we want fewer of these, and more assaults
:: hands over Pandora's Box ::
^ You sure you wanna open that sh*t?
Shoot scout with yes...
- Ripley Riley
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11049
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 22:30:00 -
[88] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:
Starting to make me wonder if Kin Cats should, in fact, be a high slot module....
speedy, brick-tanked "slayer" Scouts <--- we want fewer of these, and more assaults :: hands over Pandora's Box :: ^ You sure you wanna open that sh*t?
Well, it WOULD open up speedy Gallente Assaults f'ing over those silly Assault scouts :P
With Assaults getting HP between Commando and Logi (As rattati said), Assault scouts could very well become obsolete.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
3142
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 22:31:00 -
[89] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:speedy, brick-tanked "slayer" Scouts <--- we want fewer of these (and more assaults) :: hands Pandora's Box :: ^ You sure you wanna open that sh*t? ... you'll wish you hadn't.
If we want less slayer scouts and more assault suits then we need better assault suits. Module placement won't make a difference regarding that.
Tesfa Alem wrote:Please add the same number of highs and lows to the assault suits as thier corresponding logi brethren.
Only if logi suits get similar base hp as assaults (which im not against by any means). |
shaman oga
Nexus Balusa Horizon
2494
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 22:36:00 -
[90] - Quote
I like the new slot layout, but there is one thing i fear, Dova..., no really, i don't want Cal assault to be a Min assault 2.0.
While a 2/5 slot layout is perfect for armor tankers i can't say the same for a 5/2 layout for shield tankers, high slot modules requires a lot of PG/CPU and an assault can't withstand that layout, on the other hand if you give to cal too much resources they would be imbalanced with other assaults, i would prefer to have a 4/3 slot layout on both min and cal.
PSN: ogamega
"Dust is full of communist who despise people with enough isk to buy expensive items"
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Boot Booter
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
697
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Posted - 2014.07.16 22:39:00 -
[91] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Sgt Kirk wrote:Boots you dont play this game do you?
do you work for CCP by any chance?
this Gallente active tank, Amarr Armor tank.
If a good Gallente suit requires you only to dual tank then you have a severe issue and choice of judgment. While I agree, don't be so harsh on him. Being CCP is the worst insult imaginable in DUST
Haha I'm sure I play this game just as much if not more than you. 37 mil sp from open beta.
Fact is dual tanking is part of this game. I learned this the hard way in the min assault. Why do you think pro cal assaults with 400 plus armor? You armor tankers lived through a golden age of armor tanking ever since the buff way back and this made you believe that a pure tank was possible. Meanwhile shield tanking has been a real struggle; dual tanking became a necessity.
Like I said though the issue isn't the slot layout, the ones Rattati proposed make sense based on lore. The problem arises from not having a high slot module which contributes to armor tanking. Shield tankers have regulators in the lows. So what do you do? Dual tank to survive.
What happened to the repair tool glow?
Why won't CCP answer?
Conspiracy?
|
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11051
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 22:40:00 -
[92] - Quote
shaman oga wrote:I like the new slot layout, but there is one thing i fear, Dova... , no really, i don't want Cal assault to be a Min assault 2.0. While a 2/5 slot layout is perfect for armor tankers i can't say the same for a 5/2 layout for shield tankers, high slot modules requires a lot of PG/CPU and an assault can't withstand that layout, on the other hand if you give to cal too much resources they would be imbalanced with other assaults, i would prefer to have a 4/3 slot layout on both min and cal.
You'll have to wait and see for the CPU/PG numbers.
Assaults are getting that buffed ya know.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11051
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 22:43:00 -
[93] - Quote
Boot Booter wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Sgt Kirk wrote:Boots you dont play this game do you?
do you work for CCP by any chance?
this Gallente active tank, Amarr Armor tank.
If a good Gallente suit requires you only to dual tank then you have a severe issue and choice of judgment. While I agree, don't be so harsh on him. Being CCP is the worst insult imaginable in DUST Haha I'm sure I play this game just as much if not more than you. 37 mil sp from open beta. Fact is dual tanking is part of this game. I learned this the hard way in the min assault. Why do you think pro cal assaults with 400 plus armor? You armor tankers lived through a golden age of armor tanking ever since the buff way back and this made you believe that a pure tank was possible. Meanwhile shield tanking has been a real struggle; dual tanking became a necessity. Like I said though the issue isn't the slot layout, the ones Rattati proposed make sense based on lore. The problem arises from not having a high slot module which contributes to armor tanking. Shield tankers have regulators in the lows. So what do you do? Dual tank to survive.
I'll have you know that I owned a prototype version of every assault before the suit command respec, and Caldari and Minmatar Assaults were great, without any dual tank.
You people just try and play like an armor tanker, and being surprised when it doesn't work.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
6555
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 22:43:00 -
[94] - Quote
Boot Booter wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Sgt Kirk wrote:Boots you dont play this game do you?
do you work for CCP by any chance?
this Gallente active tank, Amarr Armor tank.
If a good Gallente suit requires you only to dual tank then you have a severe issue and choice of judgment. While I agree, don't be so harsh on him. Being CCP is the worst insult imaginable in DUST Haha I'm sure I play this game just as much if not more than you. 37 mil sp from open beta. Fact is dual tanking is part of this game. I learned this the hard way in the min assault. Why do you think pro cal assaults with 400 plus armor? You armor tankers lived through a golden age of armor tanking ever since the buff way back and this made you believe that a pure tank was possible. Meanwhile shield tanking has been a real struggle; dual tanking became a necessity. Like I said though the issue isn't the slot layout, the ones Rattati proposed make sense based on lore. The problem arises from not having a high slot module which contributes to armor tanking. Shield tankers have regulators in the lows. So what do you do? Dual tank to survive.
LOOOOOOL.
please someone else correct this man. I can't even right now
see you space cowboy...
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ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
3142
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 22:47:00 -
[95] - Quote
Boot Booter wrote:Haha I'm sure I play this game just as much if not more than you. 37 mil sp from open beta.
Fact is dual tanking is part of this game. I learned this the hard way in the min assault. Why do you think pro cal assaults with 400 plus armor? You armor tankers lived through a golden age of armor tanking ever since the buff way back and this made you believe that a pure tank was possible. Meanwhile shield tanking has been a real struggle; dual tanking became a necessity.
Like I said though the issue isn't the slot layout, the ones Rattati proposed make sense based on lore. The problem arises from not having a high slot module which contributes to armor tanking. Shield tankers have regulators in the lows. So what do you do? Dual tank to survive.
What about the golden age of shield tanking? You know... 1.0-1.4 when we all ran caldari cause armor sucked so bad.
We've had points where shields and armor were overpowered. It is possible to find some point in the middle where they are reasonably balanced.
Give Caldari assault a fairly low delay and high base recharge something tells me they will be quite happy with a 5/2 layout as long as they have sufficient resources to build competitive fits.
Shield Extenders still need a PG reduction though, that combined with a complex CPU mod could make Caldari Assault very happily fitting a pure shield tank while remaining competitive. 4 extenders, 1 energizer, 1 reg, 1 CPU mod could put Caldari Assault in a pretty decent place if they had sufficient base stats. |
Boot Booter
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
698
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Posted - 2014.07.16 22:50:00 -
[96] - Quote
Correct me about what? All I'm saying is armor tankers need a high slot module. Secondly armor has been much better than shields (recent shield buff is pretty balanced though). Both are facts.
Yep I remember the Golden age of shield tanking too.
What happened to the repair tool glow?
Why won't CCP answer?
Conspiracy?
|
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11052
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 22:53:00 -
[97] - Quote
Boot Booter wrote:Correct me about what? All I'm saying is armor tankers need a high slot module. Secondly armor has been much better than shields (recent shield buff is pretty balanced though). Both are facts.
Yep I remember the Golden age of shield tanking too.
Wouldn't say much better, just that shields had some small issues that were addressed.
They weren't huge and game changing like the armor buffs.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Boot Booter
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
698
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 22:58:00 -
[98] - Quote
Yeah I mean the game is moving towards a good place where the single tank is viable. Before shield buff bravo though basic and enhanced extenders were useless; complex are tough to fit. Meanwhile armor tankers could get huge HP by stacking cheap basic and enhanced plates. No one can argue that. That's why they were addressed.
What happened to the repair tool glow?
Why won't CCP answer?
Conspiracy?
|
Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
6555
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 22:58:00 -
[99] - Quote
Boot Booter wrote:Correct me about what? All I'm saying is armor tankers need a high slot module. Secondly armor has been much better than shields (recent shield buff is pretty balanced though). Both are facts.
Yep I remember the Golden age of shield tanking too.
if you really from Open beta you'd be here long enough to know that at the least shield tanking and armor tanking have had equal OP eras to each other.
In actuality, my experience from Mordu's private trials (closed beta) to now allow me to honestly say Shields have had a much, much longer time in the spotlight than armor has.
see you space cowboy...
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11052
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 23:02:00 -
[100] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:Boot Booter wrote:Correct me about what? All I'm saying is armor tankers need a high slot module. Secondly armor has been much better than shields (recent shield buff is pretty balanced though). Both are facts.
Yep I remember the Golden age of shield tanking too. if you really from Open beta you'd be here long enough to know that at the least shield tanking and armor tanking have had equal OP eras to each other. In actuality, my experience from Mordu's private trials (closed beta) to now allow me to honestly say Shields have had a much, much longer time in the spotlight than armor has.
To be fair there weren't any real armor tanking suits...
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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I-Shayz-I
I----------I
4128
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Posted - 2014.07.16 23:07:00 -
[101] - Quote
Values look good
Only thing I'm concerned about is the Caldari Heavy without a low slot...but other than that it's fine.
If there was one change I want before anything else it would be to switch the Min and Cal assault slots around. Minmatar needs 4/3 and Cal needs 5/2. Then take off some pg from the Minmatar assault and convert it into cpu for the Caldari.
boom, done.
Okay I lied...
The other change that needs to happen as soon as possible is giving the Gallente Logi the two extra slots at standard.
and then reducing the Cal Logi to 5/3 and giving it that 4th equipment (and some more cpu)
Everything else proposed can wait for a bit until these changes are tested and work properly. Then we can consider changing the rest.
NOW we're done.
7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
List of Legion Feedback Threads!
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Leeroy Gannarsein
Legio DXIV
501
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Posted - 2014.07.16 23:10:00 -
[102] - Quote
Jadd Hatchen wrote:Leeroy Gannarsein wrote:Well, I'd like a 2/5 layout for Amarr Assault; I don't like that we share a layout with the Gallente Assault; makes the differences in the two suits far less pronounced.
I very much want to keep my logistics sidearm, or I would like my uplink bonus expanded to function until I switch suits, rather than until I die.
That's all for now, I think. The sidearm was taken away from all of the other logi-suits back in beta to make a difference between playing logi and playing assault. Why they left it on the Amarr was dumb as it easily makes the amarr logi more powerful and more desireable than the rest. I agree that the bonus should be fixed to continue working as long as you don't switch suits upon death or refitting at a supply depot. As for "sharing" slot layouts with the Gallente, it's done that way because in FW Amarr and Caldari are aligned against Gallente and Minmatar... This there needs to be balance between those two alliances. But even with the same slot layout, they are different suits due to the bonuses... Amarr get armor tanking bonuses while Galente get armor repairing bonuses. Similarly for the Caldari and Minmatar, Caldari get shield tanking bonuses, while the Minmatar get Shield regeneration bonuses. Or at least that's how it's supposed to translate from the equivalent EVE Online ship racial bonuses.
Yes, because I see so many Amarr logistics suits running around. They are in fact the most popular of Logis. It also marginalised my assault suit because it's better for slaying. wait that isn't even true
So that's why Caldari and Minmatar have the same layouts? Right, cool.
It would seem like wisdom, but for the warning in my heart...
CCP BLOWOUT FOR CPM1
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3067
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Posted - 2014.07.16 23:17:00 -
[103] - Quote
I can not agree more with these new slot layouts, they make perfect sense and don't see why they weren't done like this in the first place.
Rattati if I ever meet you in person I'll be sure to buy you a round of the finest scotch whiskey I can afford.
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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voidfaction
Void of Faction
328
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Posted - 2014.07.16 23:30:00 -
[104] - Quote
Cal scout has 1 low slot at std and adv
cal scout has 2 bonuses that require low slot to maiximize
even at proto having only 2 slots to maximzime 2 bonuses is useless
std and adv is even more useless with only 1 slot.
really on the right direction if you wanting to make the cal scout more worthless than the present amarr scout
So when do those skilled into cal scout get respecs. you replaced its role and gave it to amarr. then give it crap bonuses that both require low slots now wanting to make it even more useless changing the slots so they only get 2 low at proto. I dont think you can **** that suit anymore than you already plan to do. so only option is respec out of the crap you are making it into. |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
2976
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 23:37:00 -
[105] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:
1. If we want less slayer scouts and more assault suits then we need better assault suits.
2. Module placement won't make a difference regarding that.
1. True
2. WTF?
Fact: Moving KinCats to High Slots will create new balance issues for Scouts.
Proposal: How 'bout we first iron out the current balance issues with Scouts before creating ones?
Shoot scout with yes...
- Ripley Riley
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
League of Infamy
3797
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 23:39:00 -
[106] - Quote
Awesome. No more sidearm on the Amarr logi.
Totally ignoring the community again. The more things change, the more they stay the same, CCP.
How about you don't let your OCD override variety and, you know, fun?
GG, CCP.
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
|
Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3067
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 23:40:00 -
[107] - Quote
voidfaction wrote:Cal scout has 1 low slot at std and adv
cal scout has 2 bonuses that require low slot to maiximize
even at proto having only 2 slots to maximzime 2 bonuses is useless
std and adv is even more useless with only 1 slot.
really on the right direction if you wanting to make the cal scout more worthless than the present amarr scout
So when do those skilled into cal scout get respecs. you replaced its role and gave it to amarr. then give it crap bonuses that both require low slots now wanting to make it even more useless changing the slots so they only get 2 low at proto. I dont think you can **** that suit anymore than you already plan to do. so only option is respec out of the crap you are making it into.
Aren't prescision enhancers in High slots?
Why do you feel the need to extend your BASE (As in without mods) 36m scan radius further?
Surely you want to make up for you short fall (Prescision) over improving you positive to above useful/faif levels?
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
|
Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
34
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 23:41:00 -
[108] - Quote
voidfaction wrote:Cal scout has 1 low slot at std and adv
cal scout has 2 bonuses that require low slot to maiximize
even at proto having only 2 slots to maximzime 2 bonuses is useless
std and adv is even more useless with only 1 slot.
really on the right direction if you wanting to make the cal scout more worthless than the present amarr scout
So when do those skilled into cal scout get respecs. you replaced its role and gave it to amarr. then give it crap bonuses that both require low slots now wanting to make it even more useless changing the slots so they only get 2 low at proto. I dont think you can **** that suit anymore than you already plan to do. so only option is respec out of the crap you are making it into.
I love you |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3939
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 23:49:00 -
[109] - Quote
I liked nixing the sidearm slot on A-Logis as a balance point, because it always struck me as a bit silly and odd to balance around.
The "plus" of the sidearm business was creating a unique/interesting suit difference. The proposed slot layouts between Gallente/Amarr Logis are identical, which make for a less interesting set of differences (they're both 3/5 H/L with 4 E). That's not much for variety.
Dren&Templar Tragedy.
|
B145PH3M3R
The Southern Legion
Final Resolution.
15
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 00:00:00 -
[110] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:Awesome. No more sidearm on the Amarr logi.
Totally ignoring the community again. The more things change, the more they stay the same, CCP.
How about you don't let your OCD override variety and, you know, fun?
GG, CCP.
Exactly. Glad I saved up 3m SP. Back to Gallogi. I will never use the amarr logi again. GG CCP (not really.)
Edit: also why do logis eq slots change per level and scouts dont. There is little point to run a basic logi, as a basic scout can do it better. But hey the sidearm was an outlier, while all scouts are better at basic. No point in changing it.. |
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4395
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 00:02:00 -
[111] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:
Moving forward with few changes without changing the whole layout of every dropsuit is certainly on the table as well. The logi sidearm f.ex. There are other "anomalies" that I would love to discuss, such as STD and ADV logi racial differences.
Have at it and keep it civil and constructive!
Please read before posting.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
|
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11056
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 00:06:00 -
[112] - Quote
Hey Rattati, any comment on my concern?
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
|
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4395
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 00:09:00 -
[113] - Quote
not being able to outfit a 2-5 am ass?
show me/us the math, how is it radically much better/worse than a 3/4 ga ass?
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
|
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Brokerib
Lone Wolves Club
1769
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 00:18:00 -
[114] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Hi all, We want to have this formal discussion and get your input. We believe that the community has wanted to have some say on this issue for some time, and now that I am studying this data in detail, some things brush me the wrong way (or my OCD). Dropsuit Slot LayoutFirst table is Current, next table is proposed, and third tracks the difference in slots between the two. We don't need to do any changes to these layouts right now. However, with PG/CPU increases for the Assault class on the horizon, more based on a PG/CPU allotment per slot type, it would be the right timing to swap a high with a low in strategic places, or add missing slots. The new premise is a single matrix of racial high/low arrangements and then tactical choices of the other slots (EQ, SA, W, G). The proposed matrix is also intended to be more thematically in line with EVE Online racial slots. Amarr highest number of low slots Caldari highest number of high slots Gallente equal number of highs and lows, preferring lows Minmatar equal number of highs and lows, preferring highs Moving forward with few changes without changing the whole layout of every dropsuit is certainly on the table as well. The logi sidearm f.ex. There are other "anomalies" that I would love to discuss, such as STD and ADV logi racial differences. Of course if you see some errors, please let us know. Have at it and keep it civil and constructive!
Completely agree with the premise and like the look of a lot of the changes, but one question Rattati.
Why do Assaults have one less slot then the Logi? Even with a boost to base HP/stats for the Assault, the Logi can bridge up to 150EHP, while maintaining the same (or better) versatility in fittings, better EWAR, while also retaining greater versatility in equipment. The only area they lose out on is secondary weapon, which isn't significant in the majority of encounters.
I would have though, at minimum, a balanced slot count between the mediums suits would be required.
That said, would need to see the changes to the Assault baseline to comment further.
o7
Knowledge is power
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11057
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 00:21:00 -
[115] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:not being able to outfit a 2-5 am ass?
show me/us the math, how is it radically much better/worse than a 3/4 ga ass?
Amarr:
148.5 * 2 + 300 = 597 HP (Amarr HP + Two Complex plates)
9.375 * 2 = 18.75 HP/s
6.368 * 1.126 = 7.17m/s (Complex kin cat)
Gallente:
82.5 * 2 + 262 = 427 HP (Two Complex ferroscales, to keep the same speed)
9.375 * 2 + 3 = 21.75 HP/s
You can try giving Gallente a kin cat, but that drops their repair rate to half of that of Amarr.
You can try to fit heavier plates, but that drops their speed to below Amarr.
Anyway you slice it, Amarr can do it better.
Heck if they don't care about speed, they can get 700+ armor easily.
Or they can get 30hp/s with that 597 armor.
As far as high slots, do you really expect me to fit shield extenders (dual tanking) to have a competitive suit?
Really?
And if the Amarrian fits extenders too, he still does it better, as a third extender doesn't cover up the HP difference.
Precision enhancers are pointless for Assaults.
Myofibril Stims are lol
Damage mods are lol and wouldn't make enough of a difference with stacking penalties.
So basically, how it should be:
Amarr = Buffer
Gallente = Repair
How it actually is:
Amarr = Best Armor tank
Gallente = Dual tank
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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calvin b
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1742
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 00:21:00 -
[116] - Quote
The assaults needs 1 high and low slot increase minimum for all races. Second if you look at the Cal logi vs. Cal Assault the logi has less EhP but more slots and can offset this easy. To stop the Logi slayer from taking from the assault reverse the slots so the assault is now 5/4 and the logi becomes 4/3.
Increase the EhP for assaults by 20% would help a lot as well.
Just my opinion.
Closed Beta Vet and Heavy, so no I am not FOTM I am an Antique
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Seymour KrelbornX
Holdfast Syndicate
Amarr Empire
615
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 00:27:00 -
[117] - Quote
calvin b wrote:The assaults needs 1 high and low slot increase minimum for all races. Second if you look at the Cal logi vs. Cal Assault the logi has less EhP but more slots and can offset this easy. To stop the Logi slayer from taking from the assault reverse the slots so the assault is now 5/4 and the logi becomes 4/3.
Increase the EhP for assaults by 20% would help a lot as well.
Just my opinion.
you also gimp true logis with this.... since ttk is so short and we are #1 target with a repper in our hands...
theres a reason why logi kdr is so low.... this would make it even lower....
simply giving the assault bonuses to being more efficient slayers would be enough to define it from logi slayers, who would not have those bonuses. |
SAIRAX SIS
Nyain San
General Tso's Alliance
112
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 00:29:00 -
[118] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:not being able to outfit a 2-5 am ass?
show me/us the math, how is it radically much better/worse than a 3/4 ga ass?
Ama Ass dont need layout change. NEED 3 High Slot.
now, put on High slot, Complex Damage Mod x2 Complex(or Enhance) Shield Extender. its usefull.
H2L5 it's unwanted change ! dont touch Amarr Assault slot layout.
By the way,Min Ass change to H4L3 is very good. it makes thin dual tanking. sweet :)
yoroshiku ne !pÇÇpÇÇCute Cat NyaoooonpÇÇGÖ¬
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voidfaction
Void of Faction
329
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 00:31:00 -
[119] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:voidfaction wrote:Cal scout has 1 low slot at std and adv
cal scout has 2 bonuses that require low slot to maiximize
even at proto having only 2 slots to maximzime 2 bonuses is useless
std and adv is even more useless with only 1 slot.
really on the right direction if you wanting to make the cal scout more worthless than the present amarr scout
So when do those skilled into cal scout get respecs. you replaced its role and gave it to amarr. then give it crap bonuses that both require low slots now wanting to make it even more useless changing the slots so they only get 2 low at proto. I dont think you can **** that suit anymore than you already plan to do. so only option is respec out of the crap you are making it into. Aren't prescision enhancers in High slots? Why do you feel the need to extend your BASE (As in without mods) 36m scan radius further? Surely you want to make up for you short fall (Prescision) over improving you positive to above useful/faif levels?
I guess you didnt get the memo
cal scout is losing the precision bonus and getting profile and range bonus.
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Fizzer94
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
2929
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 00:38:00 -
[120] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:not being able to outfit a 2-5 am ass?
show me/us the math, how is it radically much better/worse than a 3/4 ga ass? Amarr: 148.5 * 2 + 300 = 597 HP (Amarr HP + Two Complex plates) 9.375 * 2 = 18.75 HP/s 6.368 * 1.126 = 7.17m/s (Complex kin cat) Gallente: 82.5 * 2 + 262 = 427 HP (Two Complex ferroscales, to keep the same speed) 9.375 * 2 + 3 = 21.75 HP/s You can try giving Gallente a kin cat, but that drops their repair rate to half of that of Amarr. You can try to fit heavier plates, but that drops their speed to below Amarr. Anyway you slice it, Amarr can do it better. Heck if they don't care about speed, they can get 700+ armor easily. Or they can get 30hp/s with that 597 armor. As far as high slots, do you really expect me to fit shield extenders (dual tanking) to have a competitive suit? Really? And if the Amarrian fits extenders too, he still does it better, as a third extender doesn't cover up the HP difference. Precision enhancers are pointless for Assaults. Myofibril Stims are lol Damage mods are lol and wouldn't make enough of a difference with stacking penalties. So basically, how it should be: Amarr = Buffer Gallente = Repair How it actually is: Amarr = Best Armor tank Gallente = Dual tank
+1 for saying that Amarr should be buffer tanks.
My best match on Dust, 23/6/4 Placon.
Please unnerf ScPs and fix IoPs...
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11059
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Posted - 2014.07.17 00:40:00 -
[121] - Quote
Oh and I didn't mention the inherent stamina advantage Amarr have.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
647
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 00:45:00 -
[122] - Quote
voidfaction wrote:I guess you didnt get the memo
cal scout is losing the precision bonus and getting profile and range bonus.
What is your issue exactly? The CalScout will still be able to scan a long way at very low precision? It just will not be able to do so for minimal investment post-Charlie.
This is a good thing, balance-wise, and only those who are FotM chasers should really complain. The CalScout can still be an effective Scout hunter, unless those Scouts are sacrificing just as much (possibly more) to evade all scans, at which point the Caldari has an advantage over the Amarr where it can have long, long range scans to detect medium/heavy suits while tanking effectively.
Alt of Halla Murr.
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Fizzer94
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
2931
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 00:48:00 -
[123] - Quote
I think Gallente Assault should get a high armor repair rate (7ish), but Amarr are more focused on low slots.
Gallente 3/4
Amarr 2/5
My best match on Dust, 23/6/4 Placon.
Please unnerf ScPs and fix IoPs...
|
The dark cloud
The Rainbow Effect
3581
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 01:02:00 -
[124] - Quote
Why do you feel the need to move the lowslot from the caldari sentinel to a highslot? I usually like to run a repper in that 1 low slot to have a bit of regen on the armor side of it. And i highly doubt that the 2 highslots and 1 lowslot was gamebreaking.
Im more concerned that you move the highslot from the amarr sentinel to the lowslot which makes 3 lowslots on a standard armor tanked heavy. With 3 complex plates and all skills to 5 you get 1196HP armor for a very low ISK price tag. Its even worse on proto cause that will even make the galente sentinel look like a pale shadow. So i will put this simple for the logis out there:
Proto amarr sentinel after the changes:
1344HP on armor (4 complex plates)
450HP on shields (1 damage mod)
EHP= 1794HP
Proto Gallente sentinel after the changes:
1102HP on armor (3 complex plates)
488HP on shields (i leave the highslots empty or use damage mods)
EHP= 1590HP
More armor= more survivability for the heavy and the better it is for the logi to rep him. And give us finally some shield reptools. I do know you have the coding for that somewhere cause i remember how i was capable to recharge shields with a remote module on the charybdis logi LAV in the past. And yes i do mean dropsuits and not vehicles if any 1 is curious. |
Boot Booter
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
704
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 01:03:00 -
[125] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Oh and I didn't mention the inherent stamina advantage Amarr have.
Strafe speed difference would be huge (15%?) in your amarr vs gal comparison.
What happened to the repair tool glow?
Why won't CCP answer?
Conspiracy?
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11061
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 01:08:00 -
[126] - Quote
Boot Booter wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Oh and I didn't mention the inherent stamina advantage Amarr have. Strafe speed difference would be huge (15%?) in your amarr vs gal comparison.
Alright then, two ferroscales and a kin cat.
Hugely faster than a Gallente Assault, higher HP, at a small speed reduction. (5%?)
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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voidfaction
Void of Faction
329
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 01:09:00 -
[127] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:voidfaction wrote:I guess you didnt get the memo
cal scout is losing the precision bonus and getting profile and range bonus.
What is your issue exactly? The CalScout will still be able to scan a long way at very low precision? It just will not be able to do so for minimal investment post-Charlie. This is a good thing, balance-wise, and only those who are FotM chasers should really complain. The CalScout can still be an effective Scout hunter, unless those Scouts are sacrificing just as much (possibly more) to evade all scans, at which point the Caldari has an advantage over the Amarr where it can have long, long range scans to detect medium/heavy suits while tanking effectively.
20db is not very low precision. Nobody is going to wast 4 slots for 20db precision.
cal scout at proto will be the only option to be worth running with 4 shield entenders and 2 cDampeners. std and adv will be worthless and proto only to shield tank.
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I-Shayz-I
I----------I
4129
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 01:10:00 -
[128] - Quote
The problem lies in the misunderstanding that while Amarr usually have the most low slots, in Dust this has never been the case.
Gallente is always the most low slots
Amarr is always even number of slots with a preference towards lows
Gal Assault should be 2/5 and Keep the Amarr one at 3/4
Cat Merc, is this a bad idea? While yes there will still be those that choose to armor tank the Gallente Assault, I feel that it will work better to allow players that want to armor repair tank, but don't want to use a Gal Logi to do so.
Either that, or we go with the crazy idea of giving the Gallente a big bonus to armor repairers and change up the rest of the assaults to focus on survivability and regen rather than their weapons.
Rattati, we already have the Gallente scout with 2/4 and the Gallente heavy with 1/4 and the Gallente logi with 3/5...having the Gallente assault at 3/4 doesn't fit with that and has encouraged dual tanking the Gal assault. Amarr Logi is currently 3/4, Amarr sentinel is 2/3...Amarr Assault should stay 3/4 to make it fit.
__________________________________________________
Everyone needs to agree with how we want each racial style to be like
That should be figured out FIRST before we start proposing changes...okay?
7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
List of Legion Feedback Threads!
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11063
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 01:16:00 -
[129] - Quote
I-Shayz-I wrote:The problem lies in the misunderstanding that while Amarr usually have the most low slots, in Dust this has never been the case.
Gallente is always the most low slots
Amarr is always even number of slots with a preference towards lows
Gal Assault should be 2/5 and Keep the Amarr one at 3/4
Cat Merc, is this a bad idea? While yes there will still be those that choose to armor tank the Gallente Assault, I feel that it will work better to allow players that want to armor repair tank, but don't want to use a Gal Logi to do so.
Either that, or we go with the crazy idea of giving the Gallente a big bonus to armor repairers and change up the rest of the assaults to focus on survivability and regen rather than their weapons.
Rattati, we already have the Gallente scout with 2/4 and the Gallente heavy with 1/4 and the Gallente logi with 3/5...having the Gallente assault at 3/4 doesn't fit with that and has encouraged dual tanking the Gal assault. Amarr Logi is currently 3/4, Amarr sentinel is 2/3...Amarr Assault should stay 3/4 to make it fit.
__________________________________________________
Everyone needs to agree with how we want each racial style to be like
That should be figured out FIRST before we start proposing changes...okay?
I rather not.
Amarr SHOULD have a higher low slot count, I just think that changes have to be made around that.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Xocoyol Zaraoul
Superior Genetics
2148
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 01:26:00 -
[130] - Quote
YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY AMARR HEAVIES ARE ONE STEP CLOSER TO OLD-SCHOOL!
I iz so happy, so so happy ^^
I miss my 100 base shield heavies that had to rely on slabs of armor like the manly men that they were.
"You see those red dots over there?
Go and shoot them until you see a +50 on the screen" - Arkena Wyrnspire
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Toby Flenderson
research lab
556
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 01:43:00 -
[131] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Rattati, my mind is blowing up trying to figure out competitive Gal Assault configurations when Amarr Assault has 2/5 slots.
Nothing I can build is competitive, dual tank, armor tank, armor repair, whatever.
And I KNOW how to build armor suits, I have analyzed the ever living crap out of armor since Uprising 1.0 along with Arkena Wyrnspire to create the armor buff thread back before 1.4.
It's really a matter of make high slot utility modules useful, or Gallente Assault will be useless. I think we need to buff dmg mods a bit. Any way to further support rep tanking on gallente suits? It seems the Amarr will be able to do it better than gallente with the extra low slot. I'm asking because I can't think of something off of the top of my head other than increasing passive reps which I'm not sure I like Eh, increasing passive rep might be good. It's not like we could brick harder than Amarr using it, since they would have one more low slot.
For me, it would have to be a significant increase to make me think the gallente is a better choice for rep tanking. Don't get me wrong, I'd pick gallente regardless but with 5 slots and more base armor I would recognize the Amarr assault as a better rep tanker potentially.
Would 5 be too much in your opinion? 5 didn't seem very high when logis had it but now that suits only have 1,2, or 3 I think it just "sounds" excessive. |
bogeyman m
Minmatar Republic
351
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 01:43:00 -
[132] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Hi all, We want to have this formal discussion and get your input. We believe that the community has wanted to have some say on this issue for some time, and now that I am studying this data in detail, some things brush me the wrong way (or my OCD). Dropsuit Slot LayoutFirst table is Current, next table is proposed, and third tracks the difference in slots between the two. We don't need to do any changes to these layouts right now. However, with PG/CPU increases for the Assault class on the horizon, more based on a PG/CPU allotment per slot type, it would be the right timing to swap a high with a low in strategic places, or add missing slots. The new premise is a single matrix of racial high/low arrangements and then tactical choices of the other slots (EQ, SA, W, G). The proposed matrix is also intended to be more thematically in line with EVE Online racial slots. Amarr highest number of low slots Caldari highest number of high slots Gallente equal number of highs and lows, preferring lows Minmatar equal number of highs and lows, preferring highs Moving forward with few changes without changing the whole layout of every dropsuit is certainly on the table as well. The logi sidearm f.ex. There are other "anomalies" that I would love to discuss, such as STD and ADV logi racial differences. Of course if you see some errors, please let us know. Have at it and keep it civil and constructive!
Shouldn't the Caldari and the Gallente have opposite slot configuration? And shouldn't the Amarr and Minmatar be opposites also?
Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
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Beartrocity
TeamPlayers
33
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 01:43:00 -
[133] - Quote
Changes like this. You better start looking at another dropsuit respec. This is bullshit. I spec into something for a purpose and you remove it.
Kota's Tank Rager
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Toby Flenderson
research lab
556
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 01:47:00 -
[134] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:
Starting to make me wonder if Kin Cats should, in fact, be a high slot module....
speedy, brick-tanked "slayer" Scouts <--- we want fewer of these (and more assaults) :: hands Pandora's Box :: ^ You sure you wanna open that sh*t?
Yeah I liked the idea until remembered how other people would probably use the scouts that way. |
Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
6563
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 02:01:00 -
[135] - Quote
Beartrocity wrote:Changes like this. You better start looking at another dropsuit respec. This is bullshit. I spec into something for a purpose and you remove it.
You know, I honestly do think this. As much have things changed with the suits from the New Heavy suits up to the changed slot layouts that probably are going to happen in Charlie I think a Respec or at least a partial respec might be called for.
see you space cowboy...
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Booby Tuesdays
Ahrendee Mercenaries
648
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 02:05:00 -
[136] - Quote
Why on God's Green Earth are you nerfing the Minmatar Logi? Why would I run my Standard Logi suit when a Scout now officially does everything better? 
Melee Weapon of Choice: Nokia-3310 Prof. V
|
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
453
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 02:13:00 -
[137] - Quote
Fizzer94 wrote:Cat Merc wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:not being able to outfit a 2-5 am ass?
show me/us the math, how is it radically much better/worse than a 3/4 ga ass? Amarr: 148.5 * 2 + 300 = 597 HP (Amarr HP + Two Complex plates) 9.375 * 2 = 18.75 HP/s 6.368 * 1.126 = 7.17m/s (Complex kin cat) Gallente: 82.5 * 2 + 262 = 427 HP (Two Complex ferroscales, to keep the same speed) 9.375 * 2 + 3 = 21.75 HP/s You can try giving Gallente a kin cat, but that drops their repair rate to half of that of Amarr. You can try to fit heavier plates, but that drops their speed to below Amarr. Anyway you slice it, Amarr can do it better. Heck if they don't care about speed, they can get 700+ armor easily. Or they can get 30hp/s with that 597 armor. As far as high slots, do you really expect me to fit shield extenders (dual tanking) to have a competitive suit? Really? And if the Amarrian fits extenders too, he still does it better, as a third extender doesn't cover up the HP difference. Precision enhancers are pointless for Assaults. Myofibril Stims are lol Damage mods are lol and wouldn't make enough of a difference with stacking penalties. So basically, how it should be: Amarr = Buffer Gallente = Repair How it actually is: Amarr = Best Armor tank Gallente = Dual tank +1 for saying that Amarr should be buffer tanks.
Give amarr and gallente same number of low slots, then give amarr a bonus to plate hp and gallente a bonus to reps. Problem solved
Edit:
Oh wait. Rattati said no module bonuses yet. Guess things stay broken til then |
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11069
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 02:14:00 -
[138] - Quote
bogeyman m wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Hi all, We want to have this formal discussion and get your input. We believe that the community has wanted to have some say on this issue for some time, and now that I am studying this data in detail, some things brush me the wrong way (or my OCD). Dropsuit Slot LayoutFirst table is Current, next table is proposed, and third tracks the difference in slots between the two. We don't need to do any changes to these layouts right now. However, with PG/CPU increases for the Assault class on the horizon, more based on a PG/CPU allotment per slot type, it would be the right timing to swap a high with a low in strategic places, or add missing slots. The new premise is a single matrix of racial high/low arrangements and then tactical choices of the other slots (EQ, SA, W, G). The proposed matrix is also intended to be more thematically in line with EVE Online racial slots. Amarr highest number of low slots Caldari highest number of high slots Gallente equal number of highs and lows, preferring lows Minmatar equal number of highs and lows, preferring highs Moving forward with few changes without changing the whole layout of every dropsuit is certainly on the table as well. The logi sidearm f.ex. There are other "anomalies" that I would love to discuss, such as STD and ADV logi racial differences. Of course if you see some errors, please let us know. Have at it and keep it civil and constructive! Shouldn't the Caldari and the Gallente have opposite slot configuration? And shouldn't the Amarr and Minmatar be opposites also?
No?
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
|
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11069
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 02:17:00 -
[139] - Quote
No comment Rattati?
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
|
Boot Booter
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
705
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 02:18:00 -
[140] - Quote
Cat Merc.
I agree with you, without dual tanking like a scrub (me) the Amarr will be better than the Gal (especially considering the weapon bonus stuff).
So would you agree with keep the slot layout Rattati suggested but with a buff to the Gal assault base armor regen?
If so what would be acceptable number 5 hp/s, 7hp/s?
What happened to the repair tool glow?
Why won't CCP answer?
Conspiracy?
|
|
|
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11070
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 02:19:00 -
[141] - Quote
Boot Booter wrote:Cat Merc.
I agree with you, without dual tanking like a scrub (me) the Amarr will be better than the Gal (especially considering the weapon bonus stuff).
So would you agree with keep the slot layout Rattati suggested but with a buff to the Gal assault base armor regen?
If so what would be acceptable number 5 hp/s, 7hp/s?
9hp/s and it's a deal :P
But seriously though, the core of the issue comes from a complete lack of decent high slot modules.
There is no real advantage to having that extra slot.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
|
True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
11930
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 02:27:00 -
[142] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Boot Booter wrote:Cat Merc.
I agree with you, without dual tanking like a scrub (me) the Amarr will be better than the Gal (especially considering the weapon bonus stuff).
So would you agree with keep the slot layout Rattati suggested but with a buff to the Gal assault base armor regen?
If so what would be acceptable number 5 hp/s, 7hp/s? 9hp/s and it's a deal :P But seriously though, the core of the issue comes from a complete lack of decent high slot modules. There is no real advantage to having that extra slot.
5hps for freesies? Really?
"Your Faith stands as a shield for the Faithful, and you are one of His Angels." - Soren Tyrhannos to Templar Ouryon
|
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11072
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 02:31:00 -
[143] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Boot Booter wrote:Cat Merc.
I agree with you, without dual tanking like a scrub (me) the Amarr will be better than the Gal (especially considering the weapon bonus stuff).
So would you agree with keep the slot layout Rattati suggested but with a buff to the Gal assault base armor regen?
If so what would be acceptable number 5 hp/s, 7hp/s? 9hp/s and it's a deal :P But seriously though, the core of the issue comes from a complete lack of decent high slot modules. There is no real advantage to having that extra slot. 5hps for freesies? Really?
Look at the math I've given before.
You tell me if you would run a Gal Assault otherwise.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
|
Beartrocity
TeamPlayers
33
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 02:38:00 -
[144] - Quote
They don't care. They QQ about "spending your SP wisely" and when we actually do they change everything. They won't give a respec just say some bull about "spending points have consequences." I guess I'll have to spec into mind reading so I can figure out whatever I spec into will eventually become.
Kota's Tank Rager
|
I-Shayz-I
I----------I
4131
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 02:40:00 -
[145] - Quote
Wait a second, let's not give any suit free modules as base stats
Oh wait, we already do that for scouts when it comes to ewar so that they don't need to run ewar mods?
Okay then, buff away.
7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
List of Legion Feedback Threads!
|
John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
League of Infamy
3798
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 02:42:00 -
[146] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Boot Booter wrote:Cat Merc.
I agree with you, without dual tanking like a scrub (me) the Amarr will be better than the Gal (especially considering the weapon bonus stuff).
So would you agree with keep the slot layout Rattati suggested but with a buff to the Gal assault base armor regen?
If so what would be acceptable number 5 hp/s, 7hp/s? 9hp/s and it's a deal :P But seriously though, the core of the issue comes from a complete lack of decent high slot modules. There is no real advantage to having that extra slot. 5hps for freesies? Really?
Yeah, IDK Cat, people complained all day long about the "OP" 5hp/s that logi's used to get and allegedly fueled the Gal slayer-logi meta (not saying I agree with that, just saying it was a hot topic).
Obviously the 9hp/s is unreasonable, but a "free" enhanced armor rep (aka old complex) that doesn't cost you any CPU/PG is not worth a low slot? On a faster suit? You're asking for an awful lot, then. I'd like to see the Amarr assault fitting that is so amazing that a Gal assault with an inherent 5 (even 3) armor rep is useless in comparison.
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
|
JRleo jr
Xer Cloud Consortium
57
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 02:44:00 -
[147] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Hi all, We want to have this formal discussion and get your input. We believe that the community has wanted to have some say on this issue for some time, and now that I am studying this data in detail, some things brush me the wrong way (or my OCD). Dropsuit Slot LayoutFirst table is Current, next table is proposed, and third tracks the difference in slots between the two. We don't need to do any changes to these layouts right now. However, with PG/CPU increases for the Assault class on the horizon, more based on a PG/CPU allotment per slot type, it would be the right timing to swap a high with a low in strategic places, or add missing slots. The new premise is a single matrix of racial high/low arrangements and then tactical choices of the other slots (EQ, SA, W, G). The proposed matrix is also intended to be more thematically in line with EVE Online racial slots. Amarr highest number of low slots Caldari highest number of high slots Gallente equal number of highs and lows, preferring lows Minmatar equal number of highs and lows, preferring highs Moving forward with few changes without changing the whole layout of every dropsuit is certainly on the table as well. The logi sidearm f.ex. There are other "anomalies" that I would love to discuss, such as STD and ADV logi racial differences. Of course if you see some errors, please let us know. Have at it and keep it civil and constructive!
1 thing I noticed needs changing
Proto cal assault needs 5/3 and not 5/2 slots, and adv needs 4/2 not 4/1, as shield regs would be useless, atm you need to use 2 complex because the base delay is a tad too high.
Max level brony.
My special magic is trolling.
|
Cruor Abominare
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
132
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 02:47:00 -
[148] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:True Adamance wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Boot Booter wrote:Cat Merc.
I agree with you, without dual tanking like a scrub (me) the Amarr will be better than the Gal (especially considering the weapon bonus stuff).
So would you agree with keep the slot layout Rattati suggested but with a buff to the Gal assault base armor regen?
If so what would be acceptable number 5 hp/s, 7hp/s? 9hp/s and it's a deal :P But seriously though, the core of the issue comes from a complete lack of decent high slot modules. There is no real advantage to having that extra slot. 5hps for freesies? Really? Yeah, IDK Cat, people complained all day long about the "OP" 5hp/s that logi's used to get and allegedly fueled the Gal slayer-logi meta (not saying I agree with that, just saying it was a hot topic). Obviously the 9hp/s is unreasonable, but a "free" enhanced armor rep (aka old complex) that doesn't cost you any CPU/PG is not worth a low slot? On a faster suit? You're asking for an awful lot, then. I'd like to see the Amarr assault fitting that is so amazing that a Gal assault with an inherent 5 (even 3) armor rep is useless in comparison.
Oh geeze, that had nothing to do with slayer logis. Slayer logis came about because their extra slots and near assault base hp meant they could catch assualts in hp/dmg. They then had a full suite of equipment to boot, evven better they could skimp on equipment meta levels and free up massive ammounts of fitting resources so they could easily fit prime module slots without the need to worry about fitting optimization skills for their weapons. Fitting an assault with a matching fitting was much much harder. |
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11072
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 02:49:00 -
[149] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:True Adamance wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Boot Booter wrote:Cat Merc.
I agree with you, without dual tanking like a scrub (me) the Amarr will be better than the Gal (especially considering the weapon bonus stuff).
So would you agree with keep the slot layout Rattati suggested but with a buff to the Gal assault base armor regen?
If so what would be acceptable number 5 hp/s, 7hp/s? 9hp/s and it's a deal :P But seriously though, the core of the issue comes from a complete lack of decent high slot modules. There is no real advantage to having that extra slot. 5hps for freesies? Really? Yeah, IDK Cat, people complained all day long about the "OP" 5hp/s that logi's used to get and allegedly fueled the Gal slayer-logi meta (not saying I agree with that, just saying it was a hot topic). Obviously the 9hp/s is unreasonable, but a "free" enhanced armor rep (aka old complex) that doesn't cost you any CPU/PG is not worth a low slot? On a faster suit? You're asking for an awful lot, then. I'd like to see the Amarr assault fitting that is so amazing that a Gal assault with an inherent 5 (even 3) armor rep is useless in comparison.
I consider that hp/s as the nuclear option.
However:
The situation is completely different.
Gal Logis had 3/5 slots in addition to having 5hp/s and to top it all off they had 4 equipment.
All of these combined made assaults useless.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
|
John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
League of Infamy
3799
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 02:51:00 -
[150] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:
Moving forward with few changes without changing the whole layout of every dropsuit is certainly on the table as well. The logi sidearm f.ex. There are other "anomalies" that I would love to discuss, such as STD and ADV logi racial differences.
Have at it and keep it civil and constructive!
Please read before posting.
Ok, Rattati, I'll bite. What would you like from the community to convince you that removing the Amarr logi sidearm solely in the name of "normalizing" is not needed? Were all the suggestions and justifications in the initial Charlie thread insufficient?
I will give you numbers, sample fits, lore justifications, playstyle rationale, take your pick. Tell me what you want, I'll give you a counter-argument. And I will promise you that it will be 100% constructive, expletive-free, and logical/rational. In return I ask only that you do the opposite and justify why you think it so necessary it be removed. May the best argument win.
(I will start out by pre-emptively countering that your OCD and/or simplifying the (honestly not that complicated to begin with) math on slots is a fairly weak basis for making a change of this magnitude that is clearly not supported by the majority of the community.)
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
|
|
|
John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
League of Infamy
3799
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 02:58:00 -
[151] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:John Demonsbane wrote:True Adamance wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Boot Booter wrote:Cat Merc.
I agree with you, without dual tanking like a scrub (me) the Amarr will be better than the Gal (especially considering the weapon bonus stuff).
So would you agree with keep the slot layout Rattati suggested but with a buff to the Gal assault base armor regen?
If so what would be acceptable number 5 hp/s, 7hp/s? 9hp/s and it's a deal :P But seriously though, the core of the issue comes from a complete lack of decent high slot modules. There is no real advantage to having that extra slot. 5hps for freesies? Really? Yeah, IDK Cat, people complained all day long about the "OP" 5hp/s that logi's used to get and allegedly fueled the Gal slayer-logi meta (not saying I agree with that, just saying it was a hot topic). Obviously the 9hp/s is unreasonable, but a "free" enhanced armor rep (aka old complex) that doesn't cost you any CPU/PG is not worth a low slot? On a faster suit? You're asking for an awful lot, then. I'd like to see the Amarr assault fitting that is so amazing that a Gal assault with an inherent 5 (even 3) armor rep is useless in comparison. I consider that hp/s as the nuclear option. However: The situation is completely different. Gal Logis had 3/5 slots in addition to having 5hp/s and to top it all off they had 4 equipment. All of these combined made assaults useless.
Yeah, but the assault/logi imbalance is a totally different topic. We're talking about just the assault suits here. Why is 5hp/s unbalanced on any suit, regardless of the other factors, but a waste of time here? Taking your earlier example, the Amarr would get ~150 more HP, but the Gal would get 9 more regen. Is that not a decent tradeoff? It's basically like a complex plate in exchange for a complex rep. That's nothing to sniff at, and sounds an awful lot like buffer vs regen.
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
|
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11072
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 03:07:00 -
[152] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:\
Yes, the totality of the assault/logi imbalance is indeed a different topic. We may be talking about just the assault suits, but why is 5hp/s unbalanced on any suit, regardless of the other factors, but a waste of time here? Taking your earlier example, the Amarr would get ~150 more HP, but the Gal would get 9 more regen. Is that not a decent tradeoff? It's basically like a complex plate in exchange for a complex rep. That's nothing to sniff at, and sounds an awful lot like buffer vs regen.
Maybe.
It just doesn't feel right, I can't explain it.
It feels like the lazy option that would make a mess out of everything.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
|
Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
650
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 03:13:00 -
[153] - Quote
voidfaction wrote:20db is not very low precision. Nobody is going to wast 4 slots for 20db precision.
cal scout at proto will be the only option to be worth running with 4 shield entenders and 2 cDampeners. std and adv will be worthless and proto only to shield tank.
It is low. Thing is, either you make scanning so powerful that dampening is entirely moot, or you make dampening worthwhile, but only at the extreme - that is, it can dodge everything but at a high cost, which is what we're looking at right now.
Dampening only ever affects a single person: the person who is dampening their suit.
Scanning, even if we pretend the future removal of squad sharing is now, affects many people, simple because of communication being able to translate that data into information for your squad mates to act upon.
With extreme dampening evading all scans, period, you're looking at a cold war of damps vs scans: scans can never catch a fully dampened scout, but fully dampening requires an enormous trade-off in terms of survivability and potential EWar fitting, maybe you fit enough to evade most scans..then that 20db CalScout has value in catching those Scouts trying to run less damp-heavy.
It's swings and roundabouts: if your high slots for precision are not worthwhile..skill into Amarr.
Alt of Halla Murr.
|
John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
League of Infamy
3803
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 03:20:00 -
[154] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:John Demonsbane wrote:\
Yes, the totality of the assault/logi imbalance is indeed a different topic. We may be talking about just the assault suits, but why is 5hp/s unbalanced on any suit, regardless of the other factors, but a waste of time here? Taking your earlier example, the Amarr would get ~150 more HP, but the Gal would get 9 more regen. Is that not a decent tradeoff? It's basically like a complex plate in exchange for a complex rep. That's nothing to sniff at, and sounds an awful lot like buffer vs regen. Maybe. It just doesn't feel right, I can't explain it. It feels like the lazy option that would make a mess out of everything.
You win this round, Cat. I can't form a counter argument against a nebulous uneasiness....
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
2997
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 03:22:00 -
[155] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:
Ok, Rattati, I'll bite. What would you like from the community to convince you that removing the Amarr logi sidearm solely in the name of "normalizing" is not needed? Were all the suggestions and justifications in the initial Charlie thread insufficient?
I will give you numbers, sample fits, lore justifications, playstyle rationale, take your pick. Tell me what you want, I'll give you a counter-argument. And I will promise you that it will be 100% constructive, expletive-free, and logical/rational. In return I ask only that you do the opposite and justify why you think it so necessary it be removed. May the best argument win.
(I will start out by pre-emptively countering that your OCD and/or simplifying the (honestly not that complicated to begin with) math on slots is a fairly weak basis for making a change of this magnitude that is clearly not supported by the majority of the community.)
Caveat:
I'm not a Logi. I'm no fan of Logis (because of 2013). I've no intention of ever becoming a Logi (because of 2013).
But if I had skilled into the Amarr Logi it would've been strictly because it has a sidearm slot. That's its defining characteristic, and that defining characteristic has never (to my knowledge) caused problems. I remember when the entirety of Nyain San ran CalLogi, then switched to GalLogi, but I can't say I've ever seen a single one of 'em running an AM Logi.
If AM Logis are saying "we want to keep the sidearm slot rather than adding an H or L slot", I say ... why not?
If AM Logis are saying "we want to keep the sidearm slot and add an H or L slot", I say ... hellsnaw.
Shoot scout with yes...
- Ripley Riley
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Velociraptor antirrhopus
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
311
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 03:33:00 -
[156] - Quote
I'm not a huge fan of the Amarr and Gallente Sentinel slot changes.
Why? Not much sense using a shield extender on the Amarr anymore. No sense whatsoever. Edit: Hey, it would make a TON of sense to switch the Hybrid Rail resistance to Armor now instead of Shields.
Oh, and I can't even use a sidearm damage mod if I want to with my light mod.
Have you even ran the numbers to see how these changes will affect sentinel vs sentinel? Looks to me like Gallente is getting the advantage over Amarr now with an extra slot for a heavy damage mod or even a shield extender. Somehow I doubt even with the Amarr's 15% innate resistance to projectile weapons that an extra armor plate will help much against what is effectively a 4% DPS buff to Gallente and -4% nerf to Amarr's DPS.
I can already see the FOTM coming CCP... it's a good thing I was planning on skilling into the Caldari sentinel next so my shield extender skill doesn't go to a complete waste.
Signature? What signature! I have no idea what you're talking about my good sir.
|
John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
League of Infamy
3803
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 03:33:00 -
[157] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:John Demonsbane wrote:
Ok, Rattati, I'll bite. What would you like from the community to convince you that removing the Amarr logi sidearm solely in the name of "normalizing" is not needed? Were all the suggestions and justifications in the initial Charlie thread insufficient?
I will give you numbers, sample fits, lore justifications, playstyle rationale, take your pick. Tell me what you want, I'll give you a counter-argument. And I will promise you that it will be 100% constructive, expletive-free, and logical/rational. In return I ask only that you do the opposite and justify why you think it so necessary it be removed. May the best argument win.
(I will start out by pre-emptively countering that your OCD and/or simplifying the (honestly not that complicated to begin with) math on slots is a fairly weak basis for making a change of this magnitude that is clearly not supported by the majority of the community.)
Caveat: I'm not a Logi. I'm no fan of Logis (because of 2013). I've no intention of ever becoming a Logi (because of 2013).
But if I had skilled into the Amarr Logi it would've been strictly because it has a sidearm slot. That's its defining characteristic, and that defining characteristic has never (to my knowledge) caused problems. I remember when the entirety of Nyain San ran CalLogi, then switched to GalLogi, but I can't say I've ever seen a single one of 'em running an AM Logi. If AM Logis are saying "we want to keep the sidearm slot rather than adding an H or L slot", I say ... why not? If AM Logis are saying "we want to keep the sidearm slot and add an H or L slot", I say ... hellsnaw.
In all fairness, we kinda give up an EQ slot and a low slot if you look at the slot counts of the Cal logi or all the recently redesigned suits. Unlike the assault, the Amarr logi is still set up as a dual tank suit. Personally I'd like a proper amount of lows for an Amarr suit and am happy to ditch one EQ slot for the sidearm.
It's not like there's any chance I could fit a reasonable fourth piece of equipment with the pathetically low PG the suit has anyway. A toxin SMG, on the other hand, fits quite nicely.
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
|
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
457
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 03:59:00 -
[158] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:Boot Booter wrote:Killer's Coys wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:
Caldari highest number of high slots
Minmatar equal number of highs and lows, preferring highs
No... Why do you want to do that ?? Ok, Caldari has the "most-shield-tanking-fit", but it doesN'T NEED to have 5 hight slots... for 2 low... The Minmatar is faster, and with our caldari (yes, I'm caldari assault) we can have a catalyser to become as fast as the minmatar is... AND have an armor repair + armor plate // dampener + reactive plate.... The worst thing is for the Basic and the Advanced one.... 1 low slot ? Are you serious ? IF you want to keep those slots, GIVE a PASSIVE ARMOR REPAIR to Caldari Assaults ! We need repair, you want to remove a low slot, give an armor repair... On my basic, I've 6hp/s and a bit armor... So..... I'll have to remove and haven't any repair ? Joke please.... I love your work, you have made a lot of good things, but that... that's NOT what should be the Caldari Assault... NOT Or, if you want not to change for the basic one, do the same thing like the Gallente STA : 3/1 ADV : 3/2 PRO : 4/3 Please, Rattati, change your table, don't do that... don't do that... As a minmatar assault I want to say this. A 5/2 layout is always what the cal assault should've had. You will be able to achieve over 600 shield and have a recharger as well. You don't need the lows slots. Try out this fit for the cal assault 4x shield extender 1x shield energizer 1x CPU mod 1x reactive It'll be awesome, really. Thanks Rattati for fixing my min slit layout If that works for you great. But a 5 second delay? An 11 second depleted delay? No thanks That's what regulators are for. Why dont you try running 2x reg, 4x shield, 1x recharge (after CPU buff) That suit will have fantastic regen for its health pool I've beer understood running armor on Cal suits. Shield suits brah
no. his fit doesnt use regulators. he uses a cpu mod because he HAS to for shield fits. i was explaining that the delays he'd have are too extreme for me. i prefer regulators.
im hoping for a buff to shield delays and mod efficiency, because im going to miss my 2 sec delay i had running a cpu mod and dual regs in my lows on the cal assault.
i was recharging 377 shield hp in 6 seconds on my fit or ~ 300 hp BEFORE that guys fit even starts his shield regen. im worried i wont be able to get comparable results with the new layout
|
voidfaction
Void of Faction
329
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 04:02:00 -
[159] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:voidfaction wrote:20db is not very low precision. Nobody is going to wast 4 slots for 20db precision.
cal scout at proto will be the only option to be worth running with 4 shield entenders and 2 cDampeners. std and adv will be worthless and proto only to shield tank.
It is low. Thing is, either you make scanning so powerful that dampening is entirely moot, or you make dampening worthwhile, but only at the extreme - that is, it can dodge everything but at a high cost, which is what we're looking at right now. Dampening only ever affects a single person: the person who is dampening their suit. Scanning, even if we pretend the future removal of squad sharing is now, affects many people, simple because of communication being able to translate that data into information for your squad mates to act upon. With extreme dampening evading all scans, period, you're looking at a cold war of damps vs scans: scans can never catch a fully dampened scout, but fully dampening requires an enormous trade-off in terms of survivability and potential EWar fitting, maybe you fit enough to evade most scans..then that 20db CalScout has value in catching those Scouts trying to run less damp-heavy. It's swings and roundabouts: if your high slots for precision are not worthwhile..skill into Amarr.
Kinda the point of wanting a respec. I skilled cal scout for the precision buff now it has been giving to amarr.
now to the point of cal being useless. what is its role now? long range scan?
ok now lets first consider a scout first priority should be stealth. without stealth they are not a scout.
so now that said.
cal gets new bonus for dampening. makes it so they need 2 dampeners and a cloak to be hidden to be fair with the other scouts. can only be done at proto as std and adv only has 1 low slot.
now to use the 2nd bonus but oh wait i done filled the 2 lows with dampeners so 2nd bonus useless and leaving me with a 45m scan range. now lets fill all the highs with precision mods because that is the only eWAR mods for high slot and dont want to make no medium or heavy frames mad and use HP mods hell no. so now i have 20db precision.
cal 20db precision 45m range 14db profile all slots filled eWAR
gal 21db precision 61m range 14db profile all slots filled eWAR
amarr 18db precision 44m range 14db profile all slots filled eWAR
so tell me if your job is long range scan which suit you going to use? amarr can do it with lower precision and be hidden gal can do it at greater range and be hidden. oh now you want to say give up the dampening you say ok.
cal 20db precision 91m range 24db profile
gal 21db precision 86m range 24db profile
amarr 18db precision 86m range 28db profile
5m better for what? the amarr at 18db 86m is better and so is a proto focused scanner at 100m 20db the the cal.
remember this is only with a proto cal compare gal vs cal std and adv suits in the same way. 1 slot for 2 bonuses is bull **** no matter how you look at it. and nonly a fool would load down the cal with 4 precision when a piece of equipment can do 20db at 100m and only use 1 slot
|
Y-BLOCK
BioCyberDevelopment
12
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 04:07:00 -
[160] - Quote
Boot Booter wrote:[quote=Y-BLOCK]Changing the slot layout is all good & well when u r doing it w/transparency & with player input as u r; however, this would definately call for a dropsuit command respec.
No. This mentality is sickening. If people would pick their suits based on the role and racial fitting philosophy this respec thing would never arise. What you are asking for is just a first class flight to the next FOTM.
All Rattati is doing here is driving fittings towards their eve philosophy.
Hope u r feeling ok from ur aforementioned sickness; but the truth of the matter is I have the choice to play this game in any way I see fit, as u have the right 2 ur opinion. Get well soom!! |
|
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Y-BLOCK
BioCyberDevelopment
12
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 04:10:00 -
[161] - Quote
Hope u r feeling ok from ur aforementioned sickness; but the truth of the matter is I have the choice to play this game in any way I see fit, as u have the right 2 ur opinion. Get well soon!! Boot Booter wrote:Y-BLOCK wrote:Changing the slot layout is all good & well when u r doing it w/transparency & with player input as u r; however, this would definately call for a dropsuit command respec. No. This mentality is sickening. If people would pick their suits based on the role and racial fitting philosophy this respec thing would never arise. What you are asking for is just a first class flight to the next FOTM. All Rattati is doing here is driving fittings towards their eve philosophy. I've been minmatar assault since it was created because I preferred the idea of a speed based versatile assault suit. This is finally being realized.
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11077
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 04:11:00 -
[162] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:Cat Merc wrote:John Demonsbane wrote:\
Yes, the totality of the assault/logi imbalance is indeed a different topic. We may be talking about just the assault suits, but why is 5hp/s unbalanced on any suit, regardless of the other factors, but a waste of time here? Taking your earlier example, the Amarr would get ~150 more HP, but the Gal would get 9 more regen. Is that not a decent tradeoff? It's basically like a complex plate in exchange for a complex rep. That's nothing to sniff at, and sounds an awful lot like buffer vs regen. Maybe. It just doesn't feel right, I can't explain it. It feels like the lazy option that would make a mess out of everything. You win this round, Cat. I can't form a counter argument against a nebulous uneasiness....
I'm not saying it's bad, I'm just saying something about it doesn't feel right.
I am not objecting to it, just stating how it feels to me.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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voidfaction
Void of Faction
329
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 04:12:00 -
[163] - Quote
Y-BLOCK wrote:Boot Booter wrote:[quote=Y-BLOCK]Changing the slot layout is all good & well when u r doing it w/transparency & with player input as u r; however, this would definately call for a dropsuit command respec. No. This mentality is sickening. If people would pick their suits based on the role and racial fitting philosophy this respec thing would never arise. What you are asking for is just a first class flight to the next FOTM. All Rattati is doing here is driving fittings towards their eve philosophy. Hope u r feeling ok from ur aforementioned sickness; but the truth of the matter is I have the choice to play this game in any way I see fit, as u have the right 2 ur opinion. Get well soom!!
I picked cal scout for its role of being low precision scout hunter. now that role has been given to the amarr. cal is being turned into a shield tanker version of the gal scout armor tanker. I dont run my gal as an armor tanker and dont want my cal to be a shield tanker but being left with no other option unless given a respec to spec out of cal scout.
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
457
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 04:27:00 -
[164] - Quote
Rattati, for the cal assault, losing the 3rd low hurts my shield delays. i was able to get a 2 second shield delay, which i used for getting 259.44 shields recharged within the 5 second delay window. with only one regulator, i can only get 172.96 shields back in the same amount of time because i now have a 3 second delay.
i NEED the cpu mod as prerequisite for shield tanking. lowering the shield delay to 4 seconds wouldn't be enough either. id also need 25% bonus to shield regulators in order to get that 2 second shield delay again.
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
458
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 04:45:00 -
[165] - Quote
Appia Nappia wrote:Cal suits are severely lacking CPU to fit high-slot modules.
I like the slot layouts, i just hope they can having the fitting flexibility to actually use them all.
we wont. without touching cpu. a 5/2 layout running
2 complex energizers
3 complex extenders
1 complex cpu mod
1 complex regulator
proto RR
proto bolt pistol
proto av nades
youre 20 cpu short. thats with no equipment too. (and Rattati wants two equip slots lol)
so, std and adv suits wont be able to fit full shield tanks at all and proto suits cant either.
again, these suits are broken because they dont work at all unless you fit one of two specific mods on them. it breaks our freedom and customization of fits when certain mods are mandatory. like cpu mods on cal suits |
JRleo jr
Xer Cloud Consortium
57
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 05:13:00 -
[166] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:Appia Nappia wrote:Cal suits are severely lacking CPU to fit high-slot modules.
I like the slot layouts, i just hope they can having the fitting flexibility to actually use them all. we wont. without touching cpu. a 5/2 layout running 2 complex energizers 3 complex extenders 1 complex cpu mod 1 complex regulator proto RR proto bolt pistol proto av nades youre 20 cpu short. thats with no equipment too. (and Rattati wants two equip slots lol)
so, std and adv suits wont be able to fit full shield tanks at all and proto suits cant either. again, these suits are broken because they dont work at all unless you fit one of two specific mods on them. it breaks our freedom and customization of fits when certain mods are mandatory. like cpu mods on cal suits
Cal assault needs 3 lows at proto and 2 at adv because regulators.
Max level brony.
My special magic is trolling.
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Mima Sebiestor
Vengeance Unbound
Dark Taboo
3
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 05:28:00 -
[167] - Quote
Please look at:
Cell L9 and L10. I believe these should both be '1'.
Cell J9 and J10. I believe these should both be '2'.
Cell H9 and H10. I believe these should both be '3'.
Cell F9 and F10. I believe these should both be '4'.
This would allow for your original statement to be true, and would not duplicate the Amarr layout at these tiers (total equals 9 is unavoidable, and total equals 1 is not used).
"Gallente equal number of highs and lows, preferring lows"
Fewer (duplicate) extremes could lend to more balance, while still maintaining diversity.
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RedPencil
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
54
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 06:02:00 -
[168] - Quote
Seymour KrelbornX wrote:
you also gimp true logis with this.... since ttk is so short and we are #1 target with a repper in our hands...
theres a reason why logi kdr is so low.... this would make it even lower....
simply giving the assault bonuses to being more efficient slayers would be enough to define it from logi slayers, who would not have those bonuses.
Please don't complain logi over K/D because you are not meant to be a slayer. Logi meant to be supporter so use you WP.
50 WP = 1 kill
Logi ratio = [ (LIFETIME WP / 50) - KILLs ] / DEATHS
Prove me wrong.....
Beware paper cut M[;..;]M
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NoxMort3m
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
488
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 06:13:00 -
[169] - Quote
All heavies should get a single additional high or low slot based on thier race
Director:Diplomat
Search DL514 to apply
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Ryme Intrinseca
The Rainbow Effect
Dark Taboo
1517
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 06:27:00 -
[170] - Quote
Are our choices supposed to count for something? If so, how do you square that with inverting the decisions made by Amarr and Gallente sentinels? If you make these changes Amarr forgers (who specced the suit for two damage mod slots) and Gallente HMGs (who specced the suit to max armour) would be justified in asking for a respec. |
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Cruor Abominare
Horizons' Edge
Proficiency V.
132
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 07:10:00 -
[171] - Quote
RedPencil wrote:Seymour KrelbornX wrote:
you also gimp true logis with this.... since ttk is so short and we are #1 target with a repper in our hands...
theres a reason why logi kdr is so low.... this would make it even lower....
simply giving the assault bonuses to being more efficient slayers would be enough to define it from logi slayers, who would not have those bonuses.
Please don't complain logi over K/D because you are not meant to be a slayer. Logi meant to be supporter so use you WP. 50 WP = 1 kill Logi ratio = [ (LIFETIME WP / 50) - KILLs ] / DEATHS Prove me wrong.....
The wp changes will help that be more true, but especially now logi WP are insanely over inflated. Before the great exodus, there was a reason why even top scouts opted for triage and injectors to abuse the system to cap out the first day. |
Nao Kun
Nyain San
General Tso's Alliance
5
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 07:11:00 -
[172] - Quote
Getting drop suit is difficult. User need a many SP.
But you make changes frequently. This is a problem.
And, why midium suit slot: Logi > Assault ???
You should increase the low slot and high slot, with Assault suit.
I love Madrugar.
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Cruor Abominare
Horizons' Edge
Proficiency V.
132
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 07:13:00 -
[173] - Quote
JRleo jr wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:Appia Nappia wrote:Cal suits are severely lacking CPU to fit high-slot modules.
I like the slot layouts, i just hope they can having the fitting flexibility to actually use them all. we wont. without touching cpu. a 5/2 layout running 2 complex energizers 3 complex extenders 1 complex cpu mod 1 complex regulator proto RR proto bolt pistol proto av nades youre 20 cpu short. thats with no equipment too. (and Rattati wants two equip slots lol)
so, std and adv suits wont be able to fit full shield tanks at all and proto suits cant either. again, these suits are broken because they dont work at all unless you fit one of two specific mods on them. it breaks our freedom and customization of fits when certain mods are mandatory. like cpu mods on cal suits Cal assault needs 3 lows at proto and 2 at adv because regulators.
I'd be happier with them just fixing the ****** rates on the suit to begin with. By the time you worry about regulators and energizers you're just a wimpier version of the cal scout with none of the extra bonuses the scout has over you.
I should be using energizers/regulators to create a dynamic to try to exploit for my gain, not to try to keep up in a gimped suit.
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Cruor Abominare
Horizons' Edge
Proficiency V.
132
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 07:24:00 -
[174] - Quote
Jadd Hatchen wrote:Boot Booter wrote:Y-BLOCK wrote:Changing the slot layout is all good & well when u r doing it w/transparency & with player input as u r; however, this would definately call for a dropsuit command respec. No. This mentality is sickening. If people would pick their suits based on the role and racial fitting philosophy this respec thing would never arise. What you are asking for is just a first class flight to the next FOTM. All Rattati is doing here is driving fittings towards their eve philosophy. I've been minmatar assault since it was created because I preferred the idea of a speed based versatile assault suit. This is finally being realized. Actually I've been making all my skill choices solely on the racial/storyline philosophy ever since beta. That's why my favorite job in most FPS's is to pilot air vehicles, but gues what I don't do in this game? I don't pilot air vehicles because there are still NO MINMATAR VEHICLES AT ALL IN THIS GAME!!!!!!! Compared to the Amarr Heavy, the Minmatar heavy is crappy, but I'm still using the Minmatar one instead. One day they may fix that but until then I'm stuck with a crappy suit. As for the respec, I still think that CCP should just admit the game is in a state of "development" now and give a free respec every year and offer paid AUR repsecs once every 3 months. This will not only stop people from whining about changes that are necessary, but it would also serve to point out to CCP the instant that they fubar something and everyone switches to exploit it. Then CCP will be more likely to fix/nerf such mistakes sooner rather than later and they will have definite statistics to back it up
Its actually because you're both playing wrong. If you really want to RP then you need to stop worrying about being competitive and suck it up when your race is in the shitter, it happens. In Eve, once you have the basic skills, you're generally skilling into what you think is the next safe meta fully well knowing that from time to time balance and doctrines can change on a dime. Especially if you're in a big Null sec alliance, you can very much log in one day and find that the current ship you skilled into for the Alliance is no longer a valid choice and you won't be allowed in ops if you try to bring it too bad so sad reskill.
At least in dust you can actually bank skill points and respond to the meta changes forced on by a balance patch the same day as long as you were smart and saved points after getting your basic skills. |
Guiltless D667
47
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 07:27:00 -
[175] - Quote
why is the the cal scout the only scout that cant double damp until only at proto lvl compared to the other scouts?
A Strange Game.
|
Broonfondle Majikthies
Dogs of War Gaming
1212
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 07:39:00 -
[176] - Quote
My Min Assault thanks you for the extra low slots.
Makes a lot more sense and much easier for the Proto to work like a Minmatar suit.
"The air smells damp and oppressive, like a wet nun"
"Why am I talking to a lightbulb? Illuminate me"
|
MEDICO RITARDATO
Intara Direct Action
Caldari State
115
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 08:17:00 -
[177] - Quote
Prepare your anus for amarr sentinel with 1344 armor
Dont like the buff to amarr, the nerf on my callogi  and the change on my assault caldari...
If the age is on the clock you are ready for the c**k
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Nocturnal Soul
Immortal Retribution
3626
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 08:56:00 -
[178] - Quote
So 2 armor plats and 3 reps on my A-assault?
We're already slow as sh*t.
Run, hide in fear while you can for the Amarr Scout is on the hunt!
The eyes of God compelles you!!!
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4427
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 09:18:00 -
[179] - Quote
OK this is literally going nowhere.
Can I ask you to only reply with "I like these changes" and see if there is a harmony in those answers. I seem to see a few happy Min Assaults, what about the GA STD and ADV logis who have been shafted out of slots for no reason that I can see?
My belief was that players were asking for the slots to make more sense, less duplicate options and more racial flavoring. Such as fewer 3-2, 2-3.
I also see a lot of Cals who want to keep their 2 lows to put amor plates or reps, that's really not a playstyle we would design around or cater too.
Also keep in mind that Assaults are getting a decent ehp buff and pg/cpu, so don't use the current pg/cpu as a reason to say "no I don't want 4-1.
Also keep in mind that we will be buffing dmg mods so a better use for high slots.
In the end, we cannot, with slot layout design, stop anyone from doing shield extenders and normal plates. Yes, they will have of ehp, and that is something we are trying to address in Delta with some fitting bonus/efficacy solutions.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
|
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JRleo jr
Xer Cloud Consortium
57
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 09:20:00 -
[180] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:OK this is literally going nowhere. Can I ask you to only reply with "I like these changes" and see if there is a harmony in those answers. I seem to see a few happy Min Assaults, what about the GA STD and ADV logis who have been shafted out of slots for no reason that I can see? My belief was that players were asking for the slots to make more sense, less duplicate options and more racial flavoring. Such as fewer 3-2, 2-3. I also see a lot of Cals who want to keep their 2 lows to put amor plates or reps, that's really not a playstyle we would design around or cater too. Also keep in mind that Assaults are getting a decent ehp buff and pg/cpu, so don't use the current pg/cpu as a reason to say "no I don't want 4-1. Also keep in mind that we will be buffing dmg mods so a better use for high slots. In the end, we cannot, with slot layout design, stop anyone from doing shield extenders and normal plates. Yes, they will have of ehp, and that is something we are trying to address in Delta with some fitting bonus/efficacy solutions.
I like the changes
Sorry about adding more to the answer than you want, but I'm stating why and bringing up a assault buff.
The reason adv cal assault needs 2 lows is for my shield regs, complex.
Lower the base delay by 1 second or 2 and I'll be fine with it.
And the high slot buff was long overdue, thanks.
Also, the base recharge rate needs, or should, be brought up tp say 40 or 50, as a complex energizer currently bring it up to 48 hp/s, only 18 hp/s difference.
I have cal assault to 4, about to get 5 at 90k more sp, so, I'm ready.
Max level brony.
My special magic is trolling.
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FabryX10
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
114
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 09:33:00 -
[181] - Quote
@CCP Rattati: O_o Caldari assault 1 low at STD and ADV??? Ok... You must respec my dropsuit tree... |
JRleo jr
Xer Cloud Consortium
57
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 09:34:00 -
[182] - Quote
FabryX10 wrote:@CCP Rattati: O_o Caldari assault 1 low at STD and ADV??? Ok... You must respec my dropsuit tree...
Or buff shield regs again, by 15%
Max level brony.
My special magic is trolling.
|
FabryX10
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
114
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 09:47:00 -
[183] - Quote
JRleo jr wrote:FabryX10 wrote:@CCP Rattati: O_o Caldari assault 1 low at STD and ADV??? Ok... You must respec my dropsuit tree... Or buff shield regs again, by 15%
Or this... https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2247376#post2247376 |
Nocturnal Soul
Immortal Retribution
3626
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 09:47:00 -
[184] - Quote
Go for it but I'm pretty sure your going to spend delta picking up the falling pieces.
Run, hide in fear while you can for the Amarr Scout is on the hunt!
The eyes of God compelles you!!!
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Tesfa Alem
ACME SPECIAL FORCES
RISE of LEGION
162
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 10:04:00 -
[185] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:OK this is literally going nowhere. Can I ask you to only reply with "I like these changes" and see if there is a harmony in those answers. I seem to see a few happy Min Assaults, what about the GA STD and ADV logis who have been shafted out of slots for no reason that I can see? My belief was that players were asking for the slots to make more sense, less duplicate options and more racial flavoring. Such as fewer 3-2, 2-3. I also see a lot of Cals who want to keep their 2 lows to put amor plates or reps, that's really not a playstyle we would design around or cater too. Also keep in mind that Assaults are getting a decent ehp buff and pg/cpu, so don't use the current pg/cpu as a reason to say "no I don't want 4-1. Also keep in mind that we will be buffing dmg mods so a better use for high slots. In the end, we cannot, with slot layout design, stop anyone from doing shield extenders and normal plates. Yes, they will have of ehp, and that is something we are trying to address in Delta with some fitting bonus/efficacy solutions.
Only after you tell us the new base stat changes and skill changes for the assaults can anyone say whether or not the assault suit changes are functional. Because all of the math from the players explaining why something works or doesnt is honestly a waste of time.
Yes its good that the basic Gal and caldari logis are no longer bigger slower, weaker, larger scout suits.
Its also very bad that when you ask for community feedback you ignore the communties feedback and insist on removing the amarr logi sidearm.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
CPM1 Candidate
|
voidfaction
Void of Faction
333
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 10:08:00 -
[186] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:OK this is literally going nowhere. Can I ask you to only reply with "I like these changes" and see if there is a harmony in those answers. I seem to see a few happy Min Assaults, what about the GA STD and ADV logis who have been shafted out of slots for no reason that I can see? My belief was that players were asking for the slots to make more sense, less duplicate options and more racial flavoring. Such as fewer 3-2, 2-3. I also see a lot of Cals who want to keep their 2 lows to put amor plates or reps, that's really not a playstyle we would design around or cater too. Also keep in mind that Assaults are getting a decent ehp buff and pg/cpu, so don't use the current pg/cpu as a reason to say "no I don't want 4-1. Also keep in mind that we will be buffing dmg mods so a better use for high slots. In the end, we cannot, with slot layout design, stop anyone from doing shield extenders and normal plates. Yes, they will have of ehp, and that is something we are trying to address in Delta with some fitting bonus/efficacy solutions.
since you don't design around cal using low slots can you redesign the 2 cal scout bonuses to not favor using low slot mods. they are not of much use being only 1 can be enhanced with a std or adv suit and with your delta efficacy bonuses will probably be designed to require the cal to use 3 mods to get a bonus.
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3070
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 10:42:00 -
[187] - Quote
voidfaction wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:voidfaction wrote:Cal scout has 1 low slot at std and adv
cal scout has 2 bonuses that require low slot to maiximize
even at proto having only 2 slots to maximzime 2 bonuses is useless
std and adv is even more useless with only 1 slot.
really on the right direction if you wanting to make the cal scout more worthless than the present amarr scout
So when do those skilled into cal scout get respecs. you replaced its role and gave it to amarr. then give it crap bonuses that both require low slots now wanting to make it even more useless changing the slots so they only get 2 low at proto. I dont think you can **** that suit anymore than you already plan to do. so only option is respec out of the crap you are making it into. Aren't prescision enhancers in High slots? Why do you feel the need to extend your BASE (As in without mods) 36m scan radius further? Surely you want to make up for you short fall (Prescision) over improving you positive to above useful/faif levels? I guess you didnt get the memo cal scout is losing the precision bonus and getting profile and range bonus.
No I know, that's what I'm saying.
You already get decent scan range, 36.45m and your profile is still going to better than any medium suit not jacked up on 4 dampeners.
Rattai has said that ALL scouts suits will be capable of passively avoiding all but 1 scanner, which will require the use of cloak to remain undetected.
So the question is why do you want to boost these already good stats by wasting your slot on them?
The only EWAR module that wil make you even marginally better is Prescision Enhancer, in the High slot that will if you sacrifice enough tank, allow you to see more inside your passive scan radius.
It's called balance, you have something you are good at for free, but in order to get around your short falls you must sacrifice your main tank.
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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Brokerib
Lone Wolves Club
1785
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 10:50:00 -
[188] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:OK this is literally going nowhere. Can I ask you to only reply with "I like these changes" and see if there is a harmony in those answers. I seem to see a few happy Min Assaults, what about the GA STD and ADV logis who have been shafted out of slots for no reason that I can see? My belief was that players were asking for the slots to make more sense, less duplicate options and more racial flavoring. Such as fewer 3-2, 2-3. I also see a lot of Cals who want to keep their 2 lows to put amor plates or reps, that's really not a playstyle we would design around or cater too. Also keep in mind that Assaults are getting a decent ehp buff and pg/cpu, so don't use the current pg/cpu as a reason to say "no I don't want 4-1. Also keep in mind that we will be buffing dmg mods so a better use for high slots. In the end, we cannot, with slot layout design, stop anyone from doing shield extenders and normal plates. Yes, they will have of ehp, and that is something we are trying to address in Delta with some fitting bonus/efficacy solutions.
Min assault looks good, accepting decent buffs over the current base stats.
o7
Knowledge is power
|
Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3070
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 10:56:00 -
[189] - Quote
bogeyman m wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Hi all, We want to have this formal discussion and get your input. We believe that the community has wanted to have some say on this issue for some time, and now that I am studying this data in detail, some things brush me the wrong way (or my OCD). Dropsuit Slot LayoutFirst table is Current, next table is proposed, and third tracks the difference in slots between the two. We don't need to do any changes to these layouts right now. However, with PG/CPU increases for the Assault class on the horizon, more based on a PG/CPU allotment per slot type, it would be the right timing to swap a high with a low in strategic places, or add missing slots. The new premise is a single matrix of racial high/low arrangements and then tactical choices of the other slots (EQ, SA, W, G). The proposed matrix is also intended to be more thematically in line with EVE Online racial slots. Amarr highest number of low slots Caldari highest number of high slots Gallente equal number of highs and lows, preferring lows Minmatar equal number of highs and lows, preferring highs Moving forward with few changes without changing the whole layout of every dropsuit is certainly on the table as well. The logi sidearm f.ex. There are other "anomalies" that I would love to discuss, such as STD and ADV logi racial differences. Of course if you see some errors, please let us know. Have at it and keep it civil and constructive! Shouldn't the Caldari and the Gallente have opposite slot configuration? And shouldn't the Amarr and Minmatar be opposites also?
No, it's more about giving each suit the slots to get it's preferred playstyle.
Amarr - Armour Buffer Tank - Highest # of lows for greatest number of plates
Caldari - Shield Buffer Tank - Highest # of Highs for greatest number of Extenders
Gallante - Armour Rep Tank - Balanced # of Slots for Reppers and Damage Mods
Minmatar - Shield Rep Tank - Balanced # of Slots for Energizers and Regulators
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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RKKR
The Southern Legion
Final Resolution.
979
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Posted - 2014.07.17 11:04:00 -
[190] - Quote
Take a look at the equipment slots of logis and of the scout suits...
I'm not gonna bother anymore.
TIP: It's not a good idea to imply you have OCD issues to start of a formal civil constructive discussion. |
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IAmDuncanIdaho II
R 0 N 1 N
578
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Posted - 2014.07.17 11:16:00 -
[191] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:OK this is literally going nowhere.
Disagree. If you need to steer the discussion, do so. You can't bin nine pages of feedback (sure some of it's chaff you have to sort through) just like that and just say "say yes if you agree" and leave it at that.
Why would the guys who have put effort in here to try and feedback how something is good or bad continue to do so now?
What is it you are asking us to do in your OP?
You must learn honor, or you deserve to learn nothing at all.
~ Rivvy Dinari - Swordmaster of Ginaz
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4430
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Posted - 2014.07.17 11:23:00 -
[192] - Quote
IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:OK this is literally going nowhere. Disagree. If you need to steer the discussion, do so. You can't bin nine pages of feedback (sure some of it's chaff you have to sort through) just like that and just say "say yes if you agree" and leave it at that. Why would the guys who have put effort in here to try and feedback how something is good or bad continue to do so now? What is it you are asking us to do in your OP?
I said list the things you agree with, then I can see if there is a consensus on a few of the changes that we could implement.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
38
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Posted - 2014.07.17 11:37:00 -
[193] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:OK this is literally going nowhere. Can I ask you to only reply with "I like these changes" and see if there is a harmony in those answers. I seem to see a few happy Min Assaults, what about the GA STD and ADV logis who have been shafted out of slots for no reason that I can see? My belief was that players were asking for the slots to make more sense, less duplicate options and more racial flavoring. Such as fewer 3-2, 2-3. I also see a lot of Cals who want to keep their 2 lows to put amor plates or reps, that's really not a playstyle we would design around or cater too. Also keep in mind that Assaults are getting a decent ehp buff and pg/cpu, so don't use the current pg/cpu as a reason to say "no I don't want 4-1. Also keep in mind that we will be buffing dmg mods so a better use for high slots. In the end, we cannot, with slot layout design, stop anyone from doing shield extenders and normal plates. Yes, they will have of ehp, and that is something we are trying to address in Delta with some fitting bonus/efficacy solutions.
When I said "I use armor plates" that was an example.
Yes, on an Advanced caldari assault, I'll be able to fit just 1 regulator, and, if we haven't any armor (that's normal with a Caldari) we must have a good regulation, don't we ?
The raison I still play with armor plates and armor repair is that our shield isn't enought effective. We should have :
- more shield regen (something like 40-50HP/s => do that with a racial bonus (10%regen / level))
- a better regulation (something like 3sec and 5 sec)
- more speed (for all assaults)
- more stamina + stamina regen
An other solution :
=> change the shield regen with the caldari scout one's
30hp/s for a scout, that's enought but for the caldari assault, must have more regen I think |
John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
League of Infamy
3810
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Posted - 2014.07.17 11:40:00 -
[194] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:OK this is literally going nowhere. Disagree. If you need to steer the discussion, do so. You can't bin nine pages of feedback (sure some of it's chaff you have to sort through) just like that and just say "say yes if you agree" and leave it at that. Why would the guys who have put effort in here to try and feedback how something is good or bad continue to do so now? What is it you are asking us to do in your OP? I said list the things you agree with, then I can see if there is a consensus on a few of the changes that we could implement.
That's actually a pretty solid idea, I knew what you meant but the language can easily be misconstrued.
The problem, as already pointed out, is that it is difficult to fully analyze the new slot layouts without some idea of what's going to happen to the PG/CPU. Personally, I'd also like the spreadsheet to be labeled a little better, it's easy to lose track of what you are looking at as currently formatted.
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
462
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Posted - 2014.07.17 12:22:00 -
[195] - Quote
Killer's Coys wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:OK this is literally going nowhere. Can I ask you to only reply with "I like these changes" and see if there is a harmony in those answers. I seem to see a few happy Min Assaults, what about the GA STD and ADV logis who have been shafted out of slots for no reason that I can see? My belief was that players were asking for the slots to make more sense, less duplicate options and more racial flavoring. Such as fewer 3-2, 2-3. I also see a lot of Cals who want to keep their 2 lows to put amor plates or reps, that's really not a playstyle we would design around or cater too. Also keep in mind that Assaults are getting a decent ehp buff and pg/cpu, so don't use the current pg/cpu as a reason to say "no I don't want 4-1. Also keep in mind that we will be buffing dmg mods so a better use for high slots. In the end, we cannot, with slot layout design, stop anyone from doing shield extenders and normal plates. Yes, they will have of ehp, and that is something we are trying to address in Delta with some fitting bonus/efficacy solutions. When I said "I use armor plates" that was an example. Yes, on an Advanced caldari assault, I'll be able to fit just 1 regulator, and, if we haven't any armor (that's normal with a Caldari) we must have a good regulation, don't we ? The raison I still play with armor plates and armor repair is that our shield isn't enought effective. We should have : - more shield regen (something like 40-50HP/s => do that with a racial bonus (10%regen / level)) - a better regulation (something like 3sec and 5 sec) - more speed (for all assaults) - more stamina + stamina regen An other solution : => change the shield regen with the caldari scout one's 30hp/s for a scout, that's enought but for the caldari assault, must have more regen I think EDIT : for the Gallente logi (STA end ADV) that's perfect for me
i like the slot layout for cal assault but the modules were all balanced based on having 2 or 3 low slots.
lowering cal assault shield delay to 3 seconds gives a 1.84 delay with a complex regulator
a 40 hp/s recharge gives 115.31 shield hp/s when using 2 complex regulators
i feel its quite generous, but considering that shield tankers get zero support, i dont feel bad about it... at all
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voidfaction
Void of Faction
335
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Posted - 2014.07.17 12:46:00 -
[196] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:voidfaction wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:voidfaction wrote:Cal scout has 1 low slot at std and adv
cal scout has 2 bonuses that require low slot to maiximize
even at proto having only 2 slots to maximzime 2 bonuses is useless
std and adv is even more useless with only 1 slot.
really on the right direction if you wanting to make the cal scout more worthless than the present amarr scout
So when do those skilled into cal scout get respecs. you replaced its role and gave it to amarr. then give it crap bonuses that both require low slots now wanting to make it even more useless changing the slots so they only get 2 low at proto. I dont think you can **** that suit anymore than you already plan to do. so only option is respec out of the crap you are making it into. Aren't prescision enhancers in High slots? Why do you feel the need to extend your BASE (As in without mods) 36m scan radius further? Surely you want to make up for you short fall (Prescision) over improving you positive to above useful/faif levels? I guess you didnt get the memo cal scout is losing the precision bonus and getting profile and range bonus. No I know, that's what I'm saying. You already get decent scan range, 36.45m and your profile is still going to better than any medium suit not jacked up on 4 dampeners. Rattai has said that ALL scouts suits will be capable of passively avoiding all but 1 scanner, which will require the use of cloak to remain undetected. So the question is why do you want to boost these already good stats by wasting your slot on them? The only EWAR module that wil make you even marginally better is Prescision Enhancer, in the High slot that will if you sacrifice enough tank, allow you to see more inside your passive scan radius. It's called balance, you have something you are good at for free, but in order to get around your short falls you must sacrifice your main tank.
i guess your not getting it. i can get better or very close to equal with another scout suit. so the cal for the most part has no purpose/role. if i wanted the dampening of a medium i would skill a medium class suit. I dont want to hp tank a scout because we done have the problem scouts make better assaults. but cal has no role that makes it worth not hp tanking or choosing a different scout suit. the changing the slot layout even makes it worse as i have said less than proto is worthless. and only a fool would put 4 precision on the cal scout now that it dont have a bonus to it.
if i want the a range scout i go amarr or gal
if i want the precision scout I now go amarr
If i want the dampened scout i go gal
if i want a useless scout i go cal
compare std vs std, adv vs adv, and proto vs proto and tell me what the cal defining role is at all 3 tiers.
it is clear the min scout is NK, hacking
amarr is stamina
gal is dampening
cal is? range no amarr and gal are better until proto and even then its not that much better. dampening no min, amarr and gal is better or equal at all tiers. precision no beat by equipment and amarr scout at proto. shield tanking that is it the only real defining role for the cal scout that it can truly do better than the other scouts at all 3 tiers. |
Aero Yassavi
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
8811
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Posted - 2014.07.17 13:04:00 -
[197] - Quote
As someone who primarily uses Amarr dropsuits, I am really happy with these proposed changes to give those suits the most low slots. I can, however, see why some Gallente dropsuit players would be a little upset since for the longest time during the beginning of Uprising Gallente suits used to be the most armor oriented with most lows.
Given that Gallente suit players still want to be primarily armor tankers, having high slots doesn't appeal so much because the only choices are
1) Shield mods, which is dual tanking which they don't necessarily want
2) Damage mods, which seem underwhelming but are getting a buff
3) Precision mods, which aren't very useful for mediums/heavies
4) Melee mods, which are not very attractive at all
What's going to end up happening more than likely is all Gallente suits will be using nothing but damage mods in highs as players will see it as the only viable option. Either that or they will dual tank. Maybe moving a module type to high slots to give high slots more versatility may be a good thing after all? Or, if possible, create new modules for high slots?
Amarr are the good guys
Their way of the Commando seems right and noble
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JRleo jr
Xer Cloud Consortium
59
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Posted - 2014.07.17 13:07:00 -
[198] - Quote
Aero Yassavi wrote:As someone who primarily uses Amarr dropsuits, I am really happy with these proposed changes to give those suits the most low slots. I can, however, see why some Gallente dropsuit players would be a little upset since for the longest time during the beginning of Uprising Gallente suits used to be the most armor oriented with most lows.
Given that Gallente suit players still want to be primarily armor tankers, having high slots doesn't appeal so much because the only choices are
1) Shield mods, which is dual tanking which they don't necessarily want
2) Damage mods, which seem underwhelming but are getting a buff
3) Precision mods, which aren't very useful for mediums/heavies
4) Melee mods, which are not very attractive at all
What's going to end up happening more than likely is all Gallente suits will be using nothing but damage mods in highs as players will see it as the only viable option. Either that or they will dual tank. Maybe moving a module type to high slots to give high slots more versatility may be a good thing after all? Or, if possible, create new modules for high slots?
A shield extender and an energier in the highs?
Max level brony.
My special magic is trolling.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
3890
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Posted - 2014.07.17 13:40:00 -
[199] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:I also see a lot of Cals who want to keep their 2 lows to put amor plates or reps, that's really not a playstyle we would design around or cater too.
I like these changes overall, but I wanted to address this one point.
It has always been my feeling that an Armor Repair module was essential on any suit unless it had built in passive armor repair. Reactive plate can be substituted of course.
I propose that every suit should get 1 HP/sec passive armor repair, so that Armor Repair modules are no longer a mandatory fitting. This would allow suits with only one low slot to equip something useful rather than only being able to choose between an Armor Repair or a Reactive Plate.
Yes, Caldari are Shield Tankers, not armor tankers, but that is the point. If they get hit by a flux grenade they will need that armor buffer to survive long enough to get to cover. They don't rely on armor in every engagement, but they need a trickle regen so that small armor buffer is there when they need it.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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voidfaction
Void of Faction
335
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Posted - 2014.07.17 14:02:00 -
[200] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:I also see a lot of Cals who want to keep their 2 lows to put amor plates or reps, that's really not a playstyle we would design around or cater too. I like these changes overall, but I wanted to address this one point. It has always been my feeling that an Armor Repair module was essential on any suit unless it had built in passive armor repair. Reactive plate can be substituted of course. I propose that every suit should get 1 HP/sec passive armor repair, so that Armor Repair modules are no longer a mandatory fitting. This would allow suits with only one low slot to equip something useful rather than only being able to choose between an Armor Repair or a Reactive Plate. Yes, Caldari are Shield Tankers, not armor tankers, but that is the point. If they get hit by a flux grenade they will need that armor buffer to survive long enough to get to cover. They don't rely on armor in every engagement, but they need a trickle regen so that small armor buffer is there when they need it.
Great idea
armor based suits don't have to equip a shield recharger as that is built in even though they are armor based suits.
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Snake Sellors
Hellstorm Inc
League of Infamy
201
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Posted - 2014.07.17 14:07:00 -
[201] - Quote
not to seem greedy but how about another high slot for calsent? or just a buff to complex shield extenders?
I mention a 5th slot because we already get melted by the gallente and now the amarr too.
we are fast approaching the point of having a "worst" heavy suit the balance should be that they are different to each other not better or worse than |
Booby Tuesdays
Ahrendee Mercenaries
662
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Posted - 2014.07.17 14:18:00 -
[202] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:OK this is literally going nowhere. Can I ask you to only reply with "I like these changes" and see if there is a harmony in those answers. I seem to see a few happy Min Assaults, what about the GA STD and ADV logis who have been shafted out of slots for no reason that I can see?
I vehemently oppose reducing the Minmatar Logi equipment slots to 2 at Standard. There is absolutely no reason to do so. If you proceed with this, then all Standard Scout suits should only have 1 equipment slot until ADV and Proto. Seriously, the one suit that has always been balanced, and you are thinking of nerfing it just to "standardize" the Logis?
*Edit
Looks like things are back to normal for the Logis at STD level. Hooray!
Melee Weapon of Choice: Nokia-3310 Prof. V
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Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
38
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Posted - 2014.07.17 14:41:00 -
[203] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:I also see a lot of Cals who want to keep their 2 lows to put amor plates or reps, that's really not a playstyle we would design around or cater too. I like these changes overall, but I wanted to address this one point. It has always been my feeling that an Armor Repair module was essential on any suit unless it had built in passive armor repair. Reactive plate can be substituted of course. I propose that every suit should get 1 HP/sec passive armor repair, so that Armor Repair modules are no longer a mandatory fitting. This would allow suits with only one low slot to equip something useful rather than only being able to choose between an Armor Repair or a Reactive Plate. Yes, Caldari are Shield Tankers, not armor tankers, but that is the point. If they get hit by a flux grenade they will need that armor buffer to survive long enough to get to cover. They don't rely on armor in every engagement, but they need a trickle regen so that small armor buffer is there when they need it.
I totaly agree with you |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
464
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Posted - 2014.07.17 15:00:00 -
[204] - Quote
CCP Rattati, you need to idk rethink your design or philosophy on dropsuits.
Eve online doesnt make ships and then see what roles can be made out of them by players. the ships are made with clear roles and playstyles in mind. from slot layouts to bonuses, everything is geared towards fulfilling that purpose.
its it much easier to balance these suits if they were designed to run a series of specific fits rather than allowing total freedom with them.
for example amarr and gallente slot layout couldve both been 3/4 but a bonus to plate efficacy for amarr and reps efficacy for gallente means that amarr will ALWAYS be the better brick tanker while gallente would always be the better rep tanker.
people can always build fits that deviate from this but the basic balance is set in place. same goes for weapons.
its easier to balance certain weapons knowing that they will used more likely on certain suits. this allows you balance the suit and the weapon in a way that compliments each other while the overall combo is designed for fighting say, minmatar.
when CCP makes ships, they dont design a slot layout and then give us bonuses after the fact. they do the whole thing at once.
Eve online is about freedom of choice, not total freedom. we are encouraged to use certain playstyles or fits but the choice to do so is ultimately left to us.
Dust would be easier on all of us if it followed that view. build the suits and weapons with an overall purpose or design in mind. but allow us to deviate if we choose to. balance according to the design and purpose.
you can't balance total freedom like this. |
JRleo jr
Xer Cloud Consortium
59
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Posted - 2014.07.17 15:11:00 -
[205] - Quote
Snake Sellors wrote:not to seem greedy but how about another high slot for calsent? or just a buff to complex shield extenders?
I mention a 5th slot because we already get melted by the gallente and now the amarr too.
we are fast approaching the point of having a "worst" heavy suit the balance should be that they are different to each other not better or worse than
Increase base speed of min and cal sents and heavy frames, then it's finel
Max level brony.
My special magic is trolling.
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Mobius Kaethis
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
1518
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Posted - 2014.07.17 15:25:00 -
[206] - Quote
I like the idea but I see a potential issue.
The changes you are making to the Cal Scout taking away a low at advanced in exchange for one more high slot. This change will make the advanced Cal Scout very hard to use. Not only would it be unable to dampen but it would have few options outside of dampeners for that low slot. Kin Cats are not a viable alternative to dampeners since TTK is so low.
Fun > Realism
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1229
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Posted - 2014.07.17 15:36:00 -
[207] - Quote
@ CCP Rattati...
Frame of Reference: I run primarily Cal Logi in support role and not slayer builds so that's the lens I'm viewing this from. Also, without a better idea of CPU/PG changes you may make to the suits its more challenging to give you slot count & layout feedback. Any changes to bonuses on the suits or roles also factor in so its hard gauge things in a holistic way.
1) Dropping the low slot for an equipment slot. On the surface this is somewhat logical, however it is very common to have to run CPU mods to fit your modules and equipment on Cal Logi suits already. If you pull the low slot you will definitely need to bump up the fitting resources (CPU and to a lesser extent PG) because the 4th equipment slot will create an even bigger deficit on the overstretched CPU. This would inadvertently gimp the Cal Logi pretty severely compared to other Logi suits.
2) Changes to utility modules (such as code breakers) by moving them from low to high slots is attractive to some kinds of scouts but would also create secondary issues for other suits. I routinely run a code breaker on my suit and that would directly impact how slots need to be managed...not a bad thing mind you but really only moves the fitting problem from one set of suits to another.
3) This is a bit radical but here me out... What if you increased all suits equipment slots and treated them somewhat like the "mid-slots" that are in EVE ships? Basically move code breakers, biotics, and Damage Mods to "equipment slots" and focus the highs and lows on Tank and EWAR? With the armor vs shield piece you will continually run into balance issues when a choice module favors the layout of one race over another.
example...if you buff damage mods and leave them as high slots this will always favor the amor tanker races slot layouts. The problem doesn't get solved by moving to low slots. Make it a piece of equipment you help eliminate some issues. I would also put a very serious stacking penalty on damage mods to mitigate abuse and you could also make sure that the logi equipment bonus doesn't work for it just like you were going to do for cloaks.
4) Again...slot layouts go hand in hand with suit stats and role/racial bonuses so hopefully we'll see all this tied together soon and we can continue to give positive feedback to you.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
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Kaughst
Nyain San
General Tso's Alliance
529
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Posted - 2014.07.17 15:40:00 -
[208] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:OK this is literally going nowhere. Can I ask you to only reply with "I like these changes" and see if there is a harmony in those answers. I seem to see a few happy Min Assaults, what about the GA STD and ADV logis who have been shafted out of slots for no reason that I can see? My belief was that players were asking for the slots to make more sense, less duplicate options and more racial flavoring. Such as fewer 3-2, 2-3. I also see a lot of Cals who want to keep their 2 lows to put amor plates or reps, that's really not a playstyle we would design around or cater too. Also keep in mind that Assaults are getting a decent ehp buff and pg/cpu, so don't use the current pg/cpu as a reason to say "no I don't want 4-1. Also keep in mind that we will be buffing dmg mods so a better use for high slots. In the end, we cannot, with slot layout design, stop anyone from doing shield extenders and normal plates. Yes, they will have of ehp, and that is something we are trying to address in Delta with some fitting bonus/efficacy solutions.
The way I always felt was give Gal as many lows as possible and the least amount of highs as possible, with Cal vice versa leaving the amarr and minmatar to make it up with more flexibility in slots of course. And than at a later point you can can just make it up with bonuses like ROF/REP/shield recharge ect between the suits. Iono...I just want to fit a bunch of armor and reps on my Gallente assault and literally not have to worry about putting anything in my highs, I feel ashamed putting shield stuff in there because I hate managing them....I like managing my armor.
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
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Guiltless D667
51
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Posted - 2014.07.17 17:01:00 -
[209] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:OK this is literally going nowhere. Can I ask you to only reply with "I like these changes" and see if there is a harmony in those answers. I seem to see a few happy Min Assaults, what about the GA STD and ADV logis who have been shafted out of slots for no reason that I can see? My belief was that players were asking for the slots to make more sense, less duplicate options and more racial flavoring. Such as fewer 3-2, 2-3. I also see a lot of Cals who want to keep their 2 lows to put amor plates or reps, that's really not a playstyle we would design around or cater too. Also keep in mind that Assaults are getting a decent ehp buff and pg/cpu, so don't use the current pg/cpu as a reason to say "no I don't want 4-1. Also keep in mind that we will be buffing dmg mods so a better use for high slots. In the end, we cannot, with slot layout design, stop anyone from doing shield extenders and normal plates. Yes, they will have of ehp, and that is something we are trying to address in Delta with some fitting bonus/efficacy solutions.
for cal scouts it's not about the armor, it's about using your range amps or damps to make the most out of the bonuses that was given to them,nothing more.
A Strange Game.
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3072
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Posted - 2014.07.17 17:01:00 -
[210] - Quote
voidfaction wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:voidfaction wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:voidfaction wrote:Cal scout has 1 low slot at std and adv
cal scout has 2 bonuses that require low slot to maiximize
even at proto having only 2 slots to maximzime 2 bonuses is useless
std and adv is even more useless with only 1 slot.
really on the right direction if you wanting to make the cal scout more worthless than the present amarr scout
So when do those skilled into cal scout get respecs. you replaced its role and gave it to amarr. then give it crap bonuses that both require low slots now wanting to make it even more useless changing the slots so they only get 2 low at proto. I dont think you can **** that suit anymore than you already plan to do. so only option is respec out of the crap you are making it into. Aren't prescision enhancers in High slots? Why do you feel the need to extend your BASE (As in without mods) 36m scan radius further? Surely you want to make up for you short fall (Prescision) over improving you positive to above useful/faif levels? I guess you didnt get the memo cal scout is losing the precision bonus and getting profile and range bonus. No I know, that's what I'm saying. You already get decent scan range, 36.45m and your profile is still going to better than any medium suit not jacked up on 4 dampeners. Rattai has said that ALL scouts suits will be capable of passively avoiding all but 1 scanner, which will require the use of cloak to remain undetected. So the question is why do you want to boost these already good stats by wasting your slot on them? The only EWAR module that wil make you even marginally better is Prescision Enhancer, in the High slot that will if you sacrifice enough tank, allow you to see more inside your passive scan radius. It's called balance, you have something you are good at for free, but in order to get around your short falls you must sacrifice your main tank. i guess your not getting it. i can get better or very close to equal with another scout suit. so the cal for the most part has no purpose/role. if i wanted the dampening of a medium i would skill a medium class suit. I dont want to hp tank a scout because we done have the problem scouts make better assaults. but cal has no role that makes it worth not hp tanking or choosing a different scout suit. the changing the slot layout even makes it worse as i have said less than proto is worthless. and only a fool would put 4 precision on the cal scout now that it dont have a bonus to it. if i want the a range scout i go amarr or gal if i want the precision scout I now go amarr If i want the dampened scout i go gal if i want a useless scout i go cal compare std vs std, adv vs adv, and proto vs proto and tell me what the cal defining role is at all 3 tiers. it is clear the min scout is NK, hacking amarr is stamina gal is dampening cal is? range no amarr and gal are better until proto and even then its not that much better. dampening no min, amarr and gal is better or equal at all tiers. precision no beat by equipment and amarr scout at proto. shield tanking that is it the only real defining role for the cal scout that it can truly do better than the other scouts at all 3 tiers.
No the Caldari outperform them.
If they want to outrange the caldari they have to give up their main tank. You do not.
Likewise you can out prescision amarr before proto, but doing so requires you to give up your tank.
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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RedPencil
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
54
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Posted - 2014.07.17 17:12:00 -
[211] - Quote
If you are going to change Sentinel Ama and Gal slot layout, You also need to swap their Sentinel bonus to reflex the new layout.
Beware paper cut M[;..;]M
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
11425
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Posted - 2014.07.17 18:07:00 -
[212] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:OK this is literally going nowhere. Can I ask you to only reply with "I like these changes" and see if there is a harmony in those answers. I seem to see a few happy Min Assaults, what about the GA STD and ADV logis who have been shafted out of slots for no reason that I can see? My belief was that players were asking for the slots to make more sense, less duplicate options and more racial flavoring. Such as fewer 3-2, 2-3. I also see a lot of Cals who want to keep their 2 lows to put amor plates or reps, that's really not a playstyle we would design around or cater too. Also keep in mind that Assaults are getting a decent ehp buff and pg/cpu, so don't use the current pg/cpu as a reason to say "no I don't want 4-1. Also keep in mind that we will be buffing dmg mods so a better use for high slots. In the end, we cannot, with slot layout design, stop anyone from doing shield extenders and normal plates. Yes, they will have of ehp, and that is something we are trying to address in Delta with some fitting bonus/efficacy solutions.
I like these changes... but
The slot gap between tiers for mediums is still to high.
The advanced Cal scout still bothers me.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Vulpes Dolosus wrote:ADV Cal scout needs the second low slot do dodge scans. I shouldn't have to pull a proto scout suit just to be a scout. Please keep the slot progression as it is. Yeah, I have to agree with this. For specifically the ADV Cal scout, please keep the current slot layout.
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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Alldin Kan
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
1137
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Posted - 2014.07.17 18:28:00 -
[213] - Quote
Rattati I'm not seeing the Officer Assault ck.0 on the spreedsheet -_-
I would give it 5H/3L
Alldin Kan has joined the battle!
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Markus Karr
Altyr Initiative
0
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Posted - 2014.07.17 18:36:00 -
[214] - Quote
Rattati,
I understand that we want to keep the game balanced, but the changes to the logis don't make sense from a lore and faction standpoint. If you take the sidearm away from the Amarr Logi, does it not go against what the faction stands for? They are the strongest military faction according to the lore, which is why it makes sense that all the suits, including the logi, are armed to the teeth.
Also, making all the logi slots standardized doesn't make sense either. The Min Logi is based off a worker suit, which is why it has so many slots and equipment but doesn't have much hp.
The logi suits reflect every factions taste, making them all standardized and the same takes away their personalization. I believe it is important to keep this in mind, or it will feel like you're playing a suit for cosmetic purposes.
Of course, this is if you care about the lore in any degree. |
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11089
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Posted - 2014.07.17 18:45:00 -
[215] - Quote
Markus Karr wrote:Rattati,
I understand that we want to keep the game balanced, but the changes to the logis don't make sense from a lore and faction standpoint. If you take the sidearm away from the Amarr Logi, does it not go against what the faction stands for? They are the strongest military faction according to the lore, which is why it makes sense that all the suits, including the logi, are armed to the teeth.
Pretty sure the Amarr have the most territory and the largest empire, not that they're the strongest.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Markus Karr
Altyr Initiative
0
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Posted - 2014.07.17 18:47:00 -
[216] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Markus Karr wrote:Rattati,
I understand that we want to keep the game balanced, but the changes to the logis don't make sense from a lore and faction standpoint. If you take the sidearm away from the Amarr Logi, does it not go against what the faction stands for? They are the strongest military faction according to the lore, which is why it makes sense that all the suits, including the logi, are armed to the teeth.
Pretty sure the Amarr have the most territory and the largest empire, not that they're the strongest.
This is taken from the website, under the factions tab.
"The Amarr Empress rules the largest and oldest of the four empires, a vast theocracy supported by Minmatar slave labor. Amarrian citizens tend to be highly educated and fervently believe that slavery is but one step on a spiritual path toward fully embracing faith. Despite several recent setbacks, the Amarr Empire is the most stable nation and most powerful military in New Eden. Allied to the Caldari State, they wish to reclaim the Minmatar Republic." |
Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
4043
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 19:12:00 -
[217] - Quote
[quote=Jaysyn Larrisen]@ CCP Rattati...
Frame of Reference: I run primarily Cal Logi in support role and not slayer builds so that's the lens I'm viewing this from. Also, without a better idea of CPU/PG changes you may make to the suits its more challenging to give you slot count & layout feedback. Any changes to bonuses on the suits or roles also factor in so its hard gauge things in a holistic way.
1) Dropping the low slot for an equipment slot. On the surface this is somewhat logical, however it is very common to have to run CPU mods to fit your modules and equipment on Cal Logi suits already. If you pull the low slot you will definitely need to bump up the fitting resources (CPU and to a lesser extent PG) because the 4th equipment slot will create an even bigger deficit on the overstretched CPU. This would inadvertently gimp the Cal Logi pretty severely compared to other Logi suits.
I challenge anyone to show a fit with the Calogi in the proposed configuration that doesn't blow. I'm not even sure getting the 50 CPU back from the last nerf would help.
Level 4 Forum Warrior Currently on a quest to get all suits to ADV (8 remaining)
PSN: wbrom42
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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
4043
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 19:15:00 -
[218] - Quote
Hopefully the madness of trying to do this means that you will just leave the logi suits alone. They aren't slayer suits anymore.
Level 4 Forum Warrior Currently on a quest to get all suits to ADV (8 remaining)
PSN: wbrom42
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B145PH3M3R
The Southern Legion
Final Resolution.
16
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Posted - 2014.07.17 19:46:00 -
[219] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:I also see a lot of Cals who want to keep their 2 lows to put amor plates or reps, that's really not a playstyle we would design around or cater too. I like these changes overall, but I wanted to address this one point. It has always been my feeling that an Armor Repair module was essential on any suit unless it had built in passive armor repair. Reactive plate can be substituted of course. I propose that every suit should get 1 HP/sec passive armor repair, so that Armor Repair modules are no longer a mandatory fitting. This would allow suits with only one low slot to equip something useful rather than only being able to choose between an Armor Repair or a Reactive Plate. Yes, Caldari are Shield Tankers, not armor tankers, but that is the point. If they get hit by a flux grenade they will need that armor buffer to survive long enough to get to cover. They don't rely on armor in every engagement, but they need a trickle regen so that small armor buffer is there when they need it.
No just no. What happens when armor tankers get hit with a locus? Do we get shields to fall back on that that point? You can dual tank when we get armor reppers moved to hi slots.. |
PANDA UZIMAKI
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
57
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 21:23:00 -
[220] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Hi all, We want to have this formal discussion and get your input. We believe that the community has wanted to have some say on this issue for some time, and now that I am studying this data in detail, some things brush me the wrong way (or my OCD). Dropsuit Slot LayoutFirst table is Current, next table is proposed, and third tracks the difference in slots between the two. We don't need to do any changes to these layouts right now. However, with PG/CPU increases for the Assault class on the horizon, more based on a PG/CPU allotment per slot type, it would be the right timing to swap a high with a low in strategic places, or add missing slots. The new premise is a single matrix of racial high/low arrangements and then tactical choices of the other slots (EQ, SA, W, G). The proposed matrix is also intended to be more thematically in line with EVE Online racial slots. Amarr highest number of low slots Caldari highest number of high slots Gallente equal number of highs and lows, preferring lows Minmatar equal number of highs and lows, preferring highs Moving forward with few changes without changing the whole layout of every dropsuit is certainly on the table as well. The logi sidearm f.ex. There are other "anomalies" that I would love to discuss, such as STD and ADV logi racial differences. Of course if you see some errors, please let us know. Have at it and keep it civil and constructive!
DEAR CEEP RATTAI OR WHATEVER. Now I know this a bold request and I also suffer from OCD now wouldn't it be perfect if MK.0 scout had 4 low slots like the AK.0 and GK.0 since it dosent get all those passive bounes I MEAN THAT DOES SOUND FAIR RIGHT. that is all. |
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11091
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 21:27:00 -
[221] - Quote
Markus Karr wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Markus Karr wrote:Rattati,
I understand that we want to keep the game balanced, but the changes to the logis don't make sense from a lore and faction standpoint. If you take the sidearm away from the Amarr Logi, does it not go against what the faction stands for? They are the strongest military faction according to the lore, which is why it makes sense that all the suits, including the logi, are armed to the teeth.
Pretty sure the Amarr have the most territory and the largest empire, not that they're the strongest. This is taken from the website, under the factions tab. "The Amarr Empress rules the largest and oldest of the four empires, a vast theocracy supported by Minmatar slave labor. Amarrian citizens tend to be highly educated and fervently believe that slavery is but one step on a spiritual path toward fully embracing faith. Despite several recent setbacks, the Amarr Empire is the most stable nation and most powerful military in New Eden. Allied to the Caldari State, they wish to reclaim the Minmatar Republic." According to this, they would be considered the most powerful military faction.
The EVE Intro said that Caldari are the strongest military wise.
It's really just fluff, ignore it.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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B145PH3M3R
The Southern Legion
Final Resolution.
20
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Posted - 2014.07.17 21:32:00 -
[222] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Markus Karr wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Markus Karr wrote:Rattati,
I understand that we want to keep the game balanced, but the changes to the logis don't make sense from a lore and faction standpoint. If you take the sidearm away from the Amarr Logi, does it not go against what the faction stands for? They are the strongest military faction according to the lore, which is why it makes sense that all the suits, including the logi, are armed to the teeth.
Pretty sure the Amarr have the most territory and the largest empire, not that they're the strongest. This is taken from the website, under the factions tab. "The Amarr Empress rules the largest and oldest of the four empires, a vast theocracy supported by Minmatar slave labor. Amarrian citizens tend to be highly educated and fervently believe that slavery is but one step on a spiritual path toward fully embracing faith. Despite several recent setbacks, the Amarr Empire is the most stable nation and most powerful military in New Eden. Allied to the Caldari State, they wish to reclaim the Minmatar Republic." According to this, they would be considered the most powerful military faction. The EVE Intro said that Caldari are the strongest military wise. It's really just fluff, ignore it.
Caldari has the LARGEST navy. Amarr has always been technologically, and socially, the strongest. |
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11092
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 22:07:00 -
[223] - Quote
B145PH3M3R wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Markus Karr wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Markus Karr wrote:Rattati,
I understand that we want to keep the game balanced, but the changes to the logis don't make sense from a lore and faction standpoint. If you take the sidearm away from the Amarr Logi, does it not go against what the faction stands for? They are the strongest military faction according to the lore, which is why it makes sense that all the suits, including the logi, are armed to the teeth.
Pretty sure the Amarr have the most territory and the largest empire, not that they're the strongest. This is taken from the website, under the factions tab. "The Amarr Empress rules the largest and oldest of the four empires, a vast theocracy supported by Minmatar slave labor. Amarrian citizens tend to be highly educated and fervently believe that slavery is but one step on a spiritual path toward fully embracing faith. Despite several recent setbacks, the Amarr Empire is the most stable nation and most powerful military in New Eden. Allied to the Caldari State, they wish to reclaim the Minmatar Republic." According to this, they would be considered the most powerful military faction. The EVE Intro said that Caldari are the strongest military wise. It's really just fluff, ignore it. Caldari has the LARGEST navy. Amarr has always been technologically, and socially, the strongest.
lmao no.
Caldari have the smaller Navy.
Gallente and Amarr are the two sleeping giants, while Caldari and Minmatar are small but very active.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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B145PH3M3R
The Southern Legion
Final Resolution.
20
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 22:27:00 -
[224] - Quote
You're right. They have the largest battleship fleet. I was thinking it was total fleet. |
THE-PIMP-NAMED-SLICKBACK
Intrepidus XI
EoN.
179
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 23:16:00 -
[225] - Quote
Will there be a shield recharge delay reduction for the caldaris, since now there are less low slots for regulators?
Planetside 2
Eventually
Eh
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Baal Omniscient
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
1961
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 01:08:00 -
[226] - Quote
PG upgrades to high slot
Kincats to high slot
Damage mod 4/6/8
Damage mod stacking penalty greatly reduced
^Adds utility to high slots and allows stacking of damage mods to mean something. Helps to reduce the Amarr assault's eHP advantage while opening up the high-slots to more than shield tanking.
Edit: Also, make Myofibs add rang to your melee attacks, 2 PRO's giving you equal range to that of a Nova Knife.
Cross Atu for CPM1
Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
219
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Posted - 2014.07.18 01:48:00 -
[227] - Quote
Baal Omniscient wrote:PG upgrades to high slot
Kincats to high slot
Damage mod 4/6/8
Damage mod stacking penalty greatly reduced
^Adds utility to high slots and allows stacking of damage mods to mean something. Helps to reduce the Amarr assault's eHP advantage while opening up the high-slots to more than shield tanking.
Edit: Also, make Myofibs add rang to your melee attacks, 2 PRO's giving you equal range to that of a Nova Knife.
For the love of god don't do any of this. Shield based suits suck already don't nerf their ability to use kinkats or pg units without sacrificing their already sad survivability. How happy would you be to have damage mods moved to lows? |
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11092
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 01:51:00 -
[228] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:Baal Omniscient wrote:PG upgrades to high slot
Kincats to high slot
Damage mod 4/6/8
Damage mod stacking penalty greatly reduced
^Adds utility to high slots and allows stacking of damage mods to mean something. Helps to reduce the Amarr assault's eHP advantage while opening up the high-slots to more than shield tanking.
Edit: Also, make Myofibs add rang to your melee attacks, 2 PRO's giving you equal range to that of a Nova Knife. For the love of god don't do any of this. Shield based suits suck already don't nerf their ability to use kinkats or pg units without sacrificing their already sad survivability. How happy would you be to have damage mods moved to lows?
Shield suits have sad survivability?
lawl, I am doing just fine with 427 armor and 200 shields, you might be expecting too much
And the most popular weapons right now are anti armor.
So, no, your survivability isn't far off from armor if at all any different, just play to your strenghts.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Brokerib
Lone Wolves Club
1805
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 02:12:00 -
[229] - Quote
Baal Omniscient wrote:PG upgrades to high slot
Kincats to high slot
Damage mod 4/6/8
Damage mod stacking penalty greatly reduced
^Adds utility to high slots and allows stacking of damage mods to mean something. Helps to reduce the Amarr assault's eHP advantage while opening up the high-slots to more than shield tanking.
Edit: Also, make Myofibs add rang to your melee attacks, 2 PRO's giving you equal range to that of a Nova Knife.
Agree with everything except KinCats to high. Kin Cats should stay in lows, put Code Breakers in high instead.
And I'd like to see Myofibs changes to give an additional bonus to the other biotics (speed and stam). That way you can fit Myofibs to prop up the biotics in low, or to get a small increase (half or less bonus compared to the specific modules) in other biotics skills.
Knowledge is power
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Baal Omniscient
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
1961
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 02:17:00 -
[230] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:Baal Omniscient wrote:PG upgrades to high slot
Kincats to high slot
Damage mod 4/6/8
Damage mod stacking penalty greatly reduced
^Adds utility to high slots and allows stacking of damage mods to mean something. Helps to reduce the Amarr assault's eHP advantage while opening up the high-slots to more than shield tanking.
Edit: Also, make Myofibs add rang to your melee attacks, 2 PRO's giving you equal range to that of a Nova Knife. For the love of god don't do any of this. Shield based suits suck already don't nerf their ability to use kinkats or pg units without sacrificing their already sad survivability. How happy would you be to have damage mods moved to lows?
The problem being discussed is that ALL useful mods short of sHP and damage mods are in the low slots, giving low-slot laden suits a world of diversity for fits and severely limiting high-slot laden suits.
Instead of kincats, which directly benefit shield based suit's strengths, how about regs and codebreakers for highs instead? Fitting diversity is needed one way or another.
Actually cardiac regs in the high slot wouldn't be a bad idea. Armor suits couldn't reverse the effects of their armor plates without loosing a low, but they could increase their ability to keep running at full speed thereby helping make up for their low speed by a bit.
Anyway, don't think my goal is to gimp the shield suits. I've run nothing but for about as long as I've played Dust. I just want to have something to throw in my highs other than eHP or broken damage bumps that don't come close to making up for the sHP you loose by equipping them.
Cross Atu for CPM1
Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
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BrotherofHavok
PIanet Express
Canis Eliminatus Operatives
68
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 02:17:00 -
[231] - Quote
So, you want to change up the slot layout? Pull up a chair! I've got some GREAT ideas!
- I like the proposed slots so far except for one thing. These "specialized" suits (logi, commando, sentinel, scout, assault) should not have so many slots. PERIOD. Keep the proposed slot layout for the frames. This gives the frames a use. More slots for more modules, but the trade-off is the loss of the bonuses and what each "specialized" suit offers. The "specialized" suits should have less slots (presumably due to what they currently have. Logis get extra equipment, scouts get low profiles, high scans, range. Commandos get that extra light weapon and sentinels get the resistances) but keep the bonuses. A good option would be a Cal logi having 2 or 3 highs and 1 low, but they get the equipment. A min logi would have only 1 high and 1 low due to the fact that they get 4 equipment and Gal should never have had that 4th equipment.
- I agree that you need some standards for the race suits and for that I say go look at Eve online. Amarr and Caldari generally have bonus to resistances while Gallente generally have bonuses to repairs and minmatar generally have bonuses to damage. So have the Cal and Amarr with high HP or the potential for high HP, give the Gallente passive reps or bonuses to armor repairers. As for the minmatar I do not think it would be a good move to give bonuses to damage but neither do I care for the hacking bonuses that they were given. Instead, make them like the Gallente. Take away the Caldari's insane shield regen and give SOME of that to the Minmatar. I'm not saying that the minmatar scout should have 50 shield regen per second, but 25 or 30 wouldn't be a bad place to start. If the Amarr and Caldari will be the resistance group, make the Gallente and the Minmatar a group that could come back into the fight quicker. Boomerangs!
- The "Specialized" suits need to be more unique!
- Commando = 2 light weapons
- Logi = greatest number of equipment slots
- Sentinel = highest resistances
- Scout = Profile, Scans, Scan Range (should NOT include speed)
- Assault = ??? What do you want? 2nd grenade? Boost to overall HP? Speed? Remove headshot bonuses (Make their heads no longer a weak spot)? Passive bonuses to weapon stats (reload speed, clip size, dispersion, spread, weapon swap speed)? A clear definition of the assault suit needs to be given that hopefully relates to the name that it has.
There's going to be more ideas, but for now I want to let these float for a bit.
Sincerely,
Your Multi-purpose Everything User
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
220
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Posted - 2014.07.18 02:23:00 -
[232] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Doc DDD wrote:Baal Omniscient wrote:PG upgrades to high slot
Kincats to high slot
Damage mod 4/6/8
Damage mod stacking penalty greatly reduced
^Adds utility to high slots and allows stacking of damage mods to mean something. Helps to reduce the Amarr assault's eHP advantage while opening up the high-slots to more than shield tanking.
Edit: Also, make Myofibs add rang to your melee attacks, 2 PRO's giving you equal range to that of a Nova Knife. For the love of god don't do any of this. Shield based suits suck already don't nerf their ability to use kinkats or pg units without sacrificing their already sad survivability. How happy would you be to have damage mods moved to lows? Shield suits have sad survivability? lawl, I am doing just fine with 427 armor and 200 shields, you might be expecting too much And the most popular weapons right now are anti armor. So, no, your survivability isn't far off from armor if at all any different, just play to your strenghts.
Ummmm yeah armor is great with a nice shield buffer, a logi repping you, triage hives healing you, damage mods helping you out damage shield tanks with no sacrifice to your natural armor tank, Flux grenades having no effect other than causing you to drop more repping hives, no delay for your reps, and the insane wps farmed for your squad from said armor reps..
yes cat merc tell us more about how armor based suits and shield based suits are on par..
you are once again only worried about staying OP. Stay out of this unless you are being constructive or I will release the hounds on you.
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11093
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 02:33:00 -
[233] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Doc DDD wrote:Baal Omniscient wrote:PG upgrades to high slot
Kincats to high slot
Damage mod 4/6/8
Damage mod stacking penalty greatly reduced
^Adds utility to high slots and allows stacking of damage mods to mean something. Helps to reduce the Amarr assault's eHP advantage while opening up the high-slots to more than shield tanking.
Edit: Also, make Myofibs add rang to your melee attacks, 2 PRO's giving you equal range to that of a Nova Knife. For the love of god don't do any of this. Shield based suits suck already don't nerf their ability to use kinkats or pg units without sacrificing their already sad survivability. How happy would you be to have damage mods moved to lows? Shield suits have sad survivability? lawl, I am doing just fine with 427 armor and 200 shields, you might be expecting too much And the most popular weapons right now are anti armor. So, no, your survivability isn't far off from armor if at all any different, just play to your strenghts. Ummmm yeah armor is great with a nice shield buffer, a logi repping you, triage hives healing you, damage mods helping you out damage shield tanks with no sacrifice to your natural armor tank, Flux grenades having no effect other than causing you to drop more repping hives, no delay for your reps, and the insane wps farmed for your squad from said armor reps.. yes cat merc tell us more about how armor based suits and shield based suits are on par.. you are once again only worried about staying OP. Stay out of this unless you are being constructive or I will release the hounds on you.
* Logi reps outside of squads are rare
* I don't have enough CPU/PG for triage hives (CPU upgrade would come in handy here  )
* Damage mods have been nerfed to hell, and it's not like I can fit them anyway
* Flux grenades are much rarer than Locus Grenades, and when a Locus Grenade comes, I don't lose my armor. I die.
* I may not have delay for reps, but it's still 1/3rd of the speed of the free repair rate on Caldari Assaults
Basically, the advantages armor has can only come when fighting in classic battles where there's a frontline.
Skirmish fighters (like myself) can't benefit of Logi tools, Repair hives or anything of the sort.
Try fitting a kin cat instead of trying to brick, see what happens then
Oh and about your "staying OP" comment, I've been running armor since Uprising 1.0.
And I KNEW, on day 1, that armor is underpowered.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11093
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Posted - 2014.07.18 02:54:00 -
[234] - Quote
Actually, that's not true.
I've been putting armor plates on my Assault since Chromosome.
That's right, I've been armor tanking my Caldari Assault in Chromosome, because Gallente.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Baal Omniscient
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
1964
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 03:10:00 -
[235] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Doc DDD wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Doc DDD wrote:Baal Omniscient wrote:PG upgrades to high slot
Kincats to high slot
Damage mod 4/6/8
Damage mod stacking penalty greatly reduced
^Adds utility to high slots and allows stacking of damage mods to mean something. Helps to reduce the Amarr assault's eHP advantage while opening up the high-slots to more than shield tanking.
Edit: Also, make Myofibs add rang to your melee attacks, 2 PRO's giving you equal range to that of a Nova Knife. For the love of god don't do any of this. Shield based suits suck already don't nerf their ability to use kinkats or pg units without sacrificing their already sad survivability. How happy would you be to have damage mods moved to lows? Shield suits have sad survivability? lawl, I am doing just fine with 427 armor and 200 shields, you might be expecting too much And the most popular weapons right now are anti armor. So, no, your survivability isn't far off from armor if at all any different, just play to your strenghts. Ummmm yeah armor is great with a nice shield buffer, a logi repping you, triage hives healing you, damage mods helping you out damage shield tanks with no sacrifice to your natural armor tank, Flux grenades having no effect other than causing you to drop more repping hives, no delay for your reps, and the insane wps farmed for your squad from said armor reps.. yes cat merc tell us more about how armor based suits and shield based suits are on par.. you are once again only worried about staying OP. Stay out of this unless you are being constructive or I will release the hounds on you. * Logi reps outside of squads are rare * I don't have enough CPU/PG for triage hives (CPU upgrade would come in handy here ) * Damage mods have been nerfed to hell, and it's not like I can fit them anyway * Flux grenades are much rarer than Locus Grenades, and when a Locus Grenade comes, I don't lose my armor. I die. * I may not have delay for reps, but it's still 1/3rd of the speed of the free repair rate on Caldari Assaults * The only benefit of my shield buffer is that shields regenerate faster than armor, hence it's better for me to take shield damage. The time to disengage from battle is still the same for shield and armor users. Basically, the advantages armor has can only come when fighting in classic battles where there's a frontline. Skirmish fighters (like myself) can't benefit of Logi tools, Repair hives or anything of the sort. Try fitting a kin cat instead of trying to brick, see what happens then Oh and about your "staying OP" comment, I've been running armor since Uprising 1.0. And I KNEW, on day 1, that armor is underpowered.
To be fair, the armor-variant assault suits in Chrome were pretty UP then too. I ran 1 rep, 1 S-reg and a plate on my Vk.1.
.....and suddenly, Nostalgia.... 
Cross Atu for CPM1
Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
220
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Posted - 2014.07.18 03:43:00 -
[236] - Quote
Yes exactly armor tanking is more effective than shield tanking right now, which is why everyone stacks armor. It's more effective than stacking shields. You rep at 1/3 rd a Cal assault's rep immediately to effectively by the time he starts repping shields you are far ahead of him in the rep department so I would imagine that is when you push.. because now your shields are soon to come up while he is still waiting for some regen ( because time to kill is so ooooo long right cat merc? ) boom you win due to out repping his shields before his delay is over.
Why don't you ask for more plate buffs? Oh wait you have in several the threads, even though EVERY ONE armor tanks because shields alone are not viable.
Shields are in a bad place right now and again all you are concerned with is YOU ARMOR BUILD DOING WELL VS SHIELDS.
Don't be a scaredy cat, puss puss, I know you are terrified of what would happen without your armor crutch but let's push for some balance rather than exclaim how you armor based 550 hp suit is doing well
Of course it is its armor based. Way to rely on your suit to do the work for you.
keep fighting the good fight for imbalance cat merc. |
Velociraptor antirrhopus
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
312
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 04:11:00 -
[237] - Quote
Velociraptor antirrhopus wrote:I'm not a huge fan of the Amarr and Gallente Sentinel slot changes. Why? Not much sense using a shield extender on the Amarr anymore. No sense whatsoever. Edit: Hey, it would make a TON of sense to switch the Hybrid Rail resistance to Armor now instead of Shields.Oh, and I can't even use a sidearm damage mod if I want to with my heavy mod. Have you even ran the numbers to see how these changes will affect sentinel vs sentinel? Looks to me like Gallente is getting the advantage over Amarr now with an extra slot for a heavy damage mod or even a shield extender. Somehow I doubt even with the Amarr's 15% innate resistance to projectile weapons that an extra armor plate will help much against what is effectively a 4% DPS buff to Gallente and -4% nerf to Amarr's DPS. I can already see the FOTM coming CCP... it's a good thing I was planning on skilling into the Caldari sentinel next so my shield extender skill doesn't go to a complete waste.
I'm bumping my own post because no one replied to it.
DUST 514 Forums. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villa- er, I mean panty weights and neckbeards.
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11095
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 04:16:00 -
[238] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:Yes exactly armor tanking is more effective than shield tanking right now, which is why everyone stacks armor. It's more effective than stacking shields. You rep at 1/3 rd a Cal assault's rep immediately to effectively by the time he starts repping shields you are far ahead of him in the rep department so I would imagine that is when you push.. because now your shields are soon to come up while he is still waiting for some regen ( because time to kill is so ooooo long right cat merc? ) boom you win due to out repping his shields before his delay is over.
Why don't you ask for more plate buffs? Oh wait you have in several the threads, even though EVERY ONE armor tanks because shields alone are not viable.
Shields are in a bad place right now and again all you are concerned with is YOU ARMOR BUILD DOING WELL VS SHIELDS.
Don't be a scaredy cat, puss puss, I know you are terrified of what would happen without your armor crutch but let's push for some balance rather than exclaim how you armor based 627 hp suit is doing well
Of course it is its armor based. Way to rely on your suit to do the work for you.
keep fighting the good fight for imbalance cat merc.
Well, let's see...
If I rep at 1/3rd the rate of a Caldari Assault, that means that by the time he gets his first recharge cycle out, I repaired around 20HP more than him.
The next cycle he repaired 10HP more.
Then next 30HP more.
So umm, yeah, only two ticks before you surpass my regen.
Now, when did I ask for plate buffs?
Back before 1.4? When armor sucked ballz and EVERYONE was using shield based suits?
Unless you mean reactive and ferroscale plates, which no armor tanker used.
627 armor? Try 427, the same amount of armor as most Caldari suits have shields
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
|
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11095
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 04:19:00 -
[239] - Quote
Oh and apparently running Assault suits, ya know, the suits that are considered the most underpowered, when I have access to proto scouts and heavies, means I look for crutches?
Hah
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
|
John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
League of Infamy
3811
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 04:25:00 -
[240] - Quote
Velociraptor antirrhopus wrote:Velociraptor antirrhopus wrote:I'm not a huge fan of the Amarr and Gallente Sentinel slot changes. Why? Not much sense using a shield extender on the Amarr anymore. No sense whatsoever. Edit: Hey, it would make a TON of sense to switch the Hybrid Rail resistance to Armor now instead of Shields.Oh, and I can't even use a sidearm damage mod if I want to with my heavy mod. Have you even ran the numbers to see how these changes will affect sentinel vs sentinel? Looks to me like Gallente is getting the advantage over Amarr now with an extra slot for a heavy damage mod or even a shield extender. Somehow I doubt even with the Amarr's 15% innate resistance to projectile weapons that an extra armor plate will help much against what is effectively a 4% DPS buff to Gallente and -4% nerf to Amarr's DPS. I can already see the FOTM coming CCP... it's a good thing I was planning on skilling into the Caldari sentinel next so my shield extender skill doesn't go to a complete waste. I'm bumping my own post because no one replied to it.
WTF would you put a shield extender on an Amarr sentinel? That hurts my head.
It's an abomination, it is.
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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Velociraptor antirrhopus
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
313
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 04:32:00 -
[241] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:WTF would you put a shield extender on an Amarr sentinel? That hurts my head.
It's an abomination, it is.
Remote explosive resistance. Damage resistance for certain fittings.
Actually, Arkena Wyrmspire convinced me to try it out.
DUST 514 Forums. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villa- er, I mean panty weights and neckbeards.
|
Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
6592
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 04:38:00 -
[242] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:
Why don't you ask for more plate buffs? Oh wait you have in several the threads, even though EVERY ONE armor tanks because shields alone are not viable.
Correction, No defense by itself is viable.
see you space cowboy...
|
Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
221
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 04:40:00 -
[243] - Quote
Armor crutch.. yeah and you rep for how many cycles before he gets one? Leave that bit of info out? How much do you rep in total while he reps ZERO.
So clue in here, I know it's hard for a cat
Start with same total hit points.
Due to equal skill you both do equal damage ( because for some reason you can't fit damage mods but I'll let that slide )
You both take cover so you don't die at the same time ( try and keep up cat I know it's hard )
You are repping from the instant he stopped damaging you, you wait two seconds and push has position.
HE HAS NOT STARTED REPPING SHIELDS YET.
Another two seconds pass and you are face to face with your foe.
DO YOU HAVE THE SAME TOTAL HIT POINTS AS HIM RIGHT NOW CAT MERC?
DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
SAME SKILL, DIFFERENT SUITS, ADVANTAGE ARMOR.
Now most gallente run damage mods in their high slots which skew things further in the armor tankers favor, EVEN SKIRMISHES, this is without considering reppers hives and rep tools as according to you thereare no llogis that will play with you.
just because you run Kincats TO CLOSE THE GAP FASTER BEFORE SHIELDS START RECHARGING doesn't mean a shield suit would want to do the same except to RUN AWAY AND PRAY HIS SHIELDS START REPPING.
You are digging your hole deeper the more you post so please post more about how armor is in par with shields.
Ratattati please pay close attention to everything cat merc posts so that whenever he asks you for an armor buff, for example more reps on reactive plates, you can understand that he is also concerned about staying on par with shields.
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11095
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 04:47:00 -
[244] - Quote
Armor Rep = 10HP/s
Caldari Recharge = 30hp/s, 5 seconds delay
1st second:
Armor 10HP
Shield 0HP
2nd Second:
Armor 20HP
Shield 0HP
.......
5th Second:
Armor 50HP
Shield 0HP
6th Second:
Armor 60HP
Shield 30HP
7th Second:
Armor 70HP
Shield 60HP
8th Second:
Armor 80HP
Shield 90HP
9th Second:
Armor 90HP
Shield 120HP
10th Second:
Armor 100HP
Shield 150HP
Armor Repair: 11PG, 45CPU
Shield Recharge: Free
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
|
Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
221
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 04:52:00 -
[245] - Quote
Yes Sgt kirk no defence by itself is viable that is not the issue.
at this point which would be more viable:
A shield suit with 300 shield and 100 armor with a 5 second recharge delay that reps at 100 shield per second
or
An armor suit with 100 shield and 300 armor with zero delay repping at 40 armor immediately per second.
If both players are equally skilled the advantage goes to the armor reps as he ( at almost 1/3 the reps ) has 200 more hp before the shields rep once.
while both are viable.. which is more viable? |
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11095
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 04:52:00 -
[246] - Quote
As a sidenote: Calm the fuck down please 
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
|
Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
221
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Posted - 2014.07.18 04:53:00 -
[247] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Armor Rep = 10HP/s
Caldari Recharge = 30hp/s, 5 seconds delay
1st second:
Armor 10HP
Shield 0HP
2nd Second:
Armor 20HP
Shield 0HP
.......
5th Second:
Armor 50HP
Shield 0HP
6th Second:
Armor 60HP
Shield 30HP
7th Second:
Armor 70HP
Shield 60HP
8th Second:
Armor 80HP
Shield 90HP
9th Second:
Armor 90HP
Shield 120HP
10th Second:
Armor 100HP
Shield 150HP
Armor Repair: 11PG, 45CPU
Shield Recharge: Free
so cat merc with 2 complex reps make your ingenious table again
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11095
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 04:53:00 -
[248] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:Yes Sgt kirk no defence by itself is viable that is not the issue.
at this point which would be more viable:
A shield suit with 300 shield and 100 armor with a 5 second recharge delay that reps at 100 shield per second
or
An armor suit with 100 shield and 300 armor with zero delay repping at 40 armor immediately per second.
If both players are equally skilled the advantage goes to the armor reps as he ( at almost 1/3 the reps ) has 200 more hp before the shields rep once.
while both are viable.. which is more viable?
Except 40hp/s would put your HP at... base armor... 250....
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
|
Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
221
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 04:54:00 -
[249] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:As a sidenote: Calm the fu ck down please
Cat merc I am perfectly calm
I just want to make sure everyone sees what you are doing.
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11095
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 04:54:00 -
[250] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Armor Rep = 10HP/s
Caldari Recharge = 30hp/s, 5 seconds delay
1st second:
Armor 10HP
Shield 0HP
2nd Second:
Armor 20HP
Shield 0HP
.......
5th Second:
Armor 50HP
Shield 0HP
6th Second:
Armor 60HP
Shield 30HP
7th Second:
Armor 70HP
Shield 60HP
8th Second:
Armor 80HP
Shield 90HP
9th Second:
Armor 90HP
Shield 120HP
10th Second:
Armor 100HP
Shield 150HP
Armor Repair: 11PG, 45CPU
Shield Recharge: Free so cat merc with 2 complex reps make your ingenious table again
Sure, then add an Energizer.
3 shield extenders + energizer puts you at my HP level
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
221
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Posted - 2014.07.18 04:55:00 -
[251] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Doc DDD wrote:Yes Sgt kirk no defence by itself is viable that is not the issue.
at this point which would be more viable:
A shield suit with 300 shield and 100 armor with a 5 second recharge delay that reps at 100 shield per second
or
An armor suit with 100 shield and 300 armor with zero delay repping at 40 armor immediately per second.
If both players are equally skilled the advantage goes to the armor reps as he ( at almost 1/3 the reps ) has 200 more hp before the shields rep once.
while both are viable.. which is more viable? Except 40hp/s would put your HP at... base armor... 250....
follow along with the hypothetical cat merc.. what would 100 shield recharge hps leave him with. That's not the issue.
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
221
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 04:58:00 -
[252] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Doc DDD wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Armor Rep = 10HP/s
Caldari Recharge = 30hp/s, 5 seconds delay
1st second:
Armor 10HP
Shield 0HP
2nd Second:
Armor 20HP
Shield 0HP
.......
5th Second:
Armor 50HP
Shield 0HP
6th Second:
Armor 60HP
Shield 30HP
7th Second:
Armor 70HP
Shield 60HP
8th Second:
Armor 80HP
Shield 90HP
9th Second:
Armor 90HP
Shield 120HP
10th Second:
Armor 100HP
Shield 150HP
Armor Repair: 11PG, 45CPU
Shield Recharge: Free so cat merc with 2 complex reps make your ingenious table again Sure, then add an Energizer. 3 shield extenders + energizer puts you at my HP level
yes same starting hp which you will outrep, even without logis and rep hives, enough to push the shield assault with an advantage
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
221
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 05:01:00 -
[253] - Quote
Now cat merc pretend you have a logi bro with a rep tool and rep hives and the caldari opponent has a logibro with a repair tool and rep hives. Does the armor player still have the advantage? |
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11095
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 05:03:00 -
[254] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:
yes same starting hp which you will outrep, even without logis and rep hives, enough to push the shield assault with an advantage
Armor Repair: 18hp/s
Shield Recharge: 50hp/s, 5 seconds delay
1st Second:
Armor: 18HP
Shields: 0HP
2nd Second:
Armor: 36HP
Shields: 0HP
3rd Second:
Armor: 54HP
Shields: 0HP
....
5th Second:
Armor: 90HP
Shields: 0HP
6th Second:
Armor: 108HP
Shields: 50HP
7th Second:
Armor: 126HP
Shields: 100HP
8th Second:
Armor: 144HP
Shields: 150HP
9th Second:
Armor: 162HP
Shields: 200HP
10th Second:
Armor: 180HP
Shields: 250HP
Armor: 90CPU, 22PG
Shields: 96CPU
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
|
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11095
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 05:04:00 -
[255] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:Now cat merc pretend you have a logi bro with a rep tool and rep hives and the caldari opponent has a logibro with a repair tool and rep hives. Does the armor player still have the advantage?
2 people vs 1 person
That rep guy is wasting his time, as he would be better off just shooting that guy, dealing double the DPS together.
The rep is only really used after the battle, or when dealing with a heavy, which is a completely different beast.
Also, rep hives are very fragile after the nerf, you should see how quickly they disappear when I do bring a Logi with me.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
|
Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
221
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 05:09:00 -
[256] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Doc DDD wrote:Now cat merc pretend you have a logi bro with a rep tool and rep hives and the caldari opponent has a logibro with a repair tool and rep hives. Does the armor player still have the advantage? 2 people vs 1 person That rep guy is wasting his time, as he would be better off just shooting that guy, dealing double the DPS together. The rep is only really used after the battle, or when dealing with a heavy, which is a completely different beast.
So your logibro wouldn'tdrop a rep hive for you before the eengagement? That's odd since it would be so useful.
Especially if all 4 players are equally skilled and have equal dps output.
are you sure this is how you want to portray you understanding of dust mechanics?
As all 4 players have equal skill, let's say you forgot to have a rep hive placed, now all 4 take cover equally close to death, will the caldari suit benefit from his logi Bros reps as much as you?
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11095
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 05:12:00 -
[257] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Doc DDD wrote:Now cat merc pretend you have a logi bro with a rep tool and rep hives and the caldari opponent has a logibro with a repair tool and rep hives. Does the armor player still have the advantage? 2 people vs 1 person That rep guy is wasting his time, as he would be better off just shooting that guy, dealing double the DPS together. The rep is only really used after the battle, or when dealing with a heavy, which is a completely different beast. So your logibro wouldn'tdrop a rep hive for you before the eengagement? That's odd since it would be so useful. Especially if all 4 players are equally skilled and have equal dps output. are you sure this is how you want to portray you understanding of dust mechanics? As all 4 players have equal skill, let's say you forgot to have a rep hive placed, now all 4 take cover equally close to death, will the caldari suit benefit from his logi Bros reps as much as you?
That's assuming you engage in standard two sides combat.
I literally never do that, I am hyper aggressive always pushing forward.
Rep hives never have a chance to rep me.
Anyway, I do agree that shields need Logi tools of their own, but when it comes to the suits by themselves, Armor vs Shields is more balanced than it has ever been. Ever.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
|
Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
221
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 05:26:00 -
[258] - Quote
Back peddling, and no armor is far ahead of shields at this moment in time. If youwish we can agree to disagree and you may take your leave and let our discussion speak for itself.
I would be more than happy to do that.
But if you are more interested in explaining how shields and armor are balanced now because YOU don't use logis, or rep hives, or rep tools, or damage mods, or more than one armor repairer, or fully stack you lows with plates, and still manage to do well verses shield suits of equal skill, well then carry on......
I will stay up all night and fight for shields to be balanced while you for some reason believe that GOING ON AND ON ABOUT YOUR EFFECTIVENESS while not utilizing your suit to its full potential in a squad based game , is painting a picture of shield and armor parity.
As per cat merc, his armor based suit does not require the myriad of beneficial tools available to benefit armor in order to be on par with a shield suit user that is desperately using every resource available. And this is balance according to cat merc. |
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11095
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 05:34:00 -
[259] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:Back peddling, and no, armor is far ahead of shields at this moment in time. If youwish we can agree to disagree and you may take your leave and let our discussion speak for itself.
I would be more than happy to do that.
But if you are more interested in explaining how shields and armor are balanced now because YOU don't use logis, or rep hives, or rep tools, or damage mods, or more than one armor repairer, or fully stack you lows with plates, and still manage to do well verses shield suits of equal skill, well then carry on......
I will stay up all night and fight for shields to be balanced while you for some reason believe that GOING ON AND ON ABOUT YOUR EFFECTIVENESS while not utilizing your suit to its full potential in a squad based game , is painting a picture of shield and armor parity.
As per cat merc, his armor based suit does not require the myriad of beneficial tools available to benefit armor in order to be on par with a shield suit user that is desperately using every resource available. And this is balance according to cat merc.
Except I explained to you very clearly why these tools aren't available a lot of times.
Rep tools < Guns
So in the middle of a fight, nobody will you repair you unless you're a heavy
Rep Hives - They force me to stay stationary, which means that people can very easily chuck a grenade my way
Damage mods - Where is the CPU/PG to fit it? I don't have CPU/PG mods in high slots
Stacking Plates - So I would be slow (making myself an easy target) and have no rep? Seems legit.
More than one armor repairer - Actually I do run that, I just like to spice things up by replacing one with a kin cat
Back pedaling:
Huh?
It was my stance for ages now that shields need their own logi tools.
You're just looking for any way to attack me aren't you?
On a final note: Before the suit command respec, I had every Assault suit to prototype.
I did just as well in my shield suits as I did with my armor suits.
And not a single armor plate was used.
And that was before the shield buff.
So yes, let's agree to disagree.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
221
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 06:03:00 -
[260] - Quote
Excellent agree to disagree
I rep any suit with armor as a logi, a force multiplyer, especially an armor tanked gal assault, with a triage hive HE WILL NOT DIE. So i guess you were wrong there.. but hey, agree to disagree.
( by the way rep tools go in the equipment slot and as a logi I carry a gun for pew pew )
you would be amazed by the effectiveness of triage hives on an armor suit! You simply must try it some time vs shield tankers, unless you find it unnecessary due to the current state of shield vs armor. That I can understand cat merc.
stack a complex ferro scale,or a complex reactive with anything. . THANK YOU DIMINISHING RETURNS!!!! Oh I'm guessing you don't do this as you find it unnecessary due to the current state of shield vs armor. That I can understand.
More than one armor repairer? Well I guess we agree there, sure is nice isn't it? That I can understand.
I am not attacking you, I am shining a light on the flaws of your implied logic. Shields are not in a good place right now. I don't think you are insulting me be stating otherwise, but you have not brought up any valid points to defend your opinion other than to state that even by denying yourself many of the benefits to tanking armor, you can still run a viable fit vs a shield tanked suit using every benefit available to shields. THAT is what boggles my mind when you follow up such statements with " shields and armor are very balanced ".
Good thing you chose to proto your armor assault after the suit respect eh? I can understand that. |
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11096
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 06:09:00 -
[261] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:Excellent agree to disagree
I rep any suit with armor as a logi, a force multiplyer, especially an armor tanked gal assault, with a triage hive HE WILL NOT DIE. So i guess you were wrong there.. but hey, agree to disagree.
( by the way rep tools go in the equipment slot and as a logi I carry a gun for pew pew )
you would be amazed by the effectiveness of triage hives on an armor suit! You simply must try it some time vs shield tankers, unless you find it unnecessary due to the current state of shield vs armor. That I can understand cat merc.
stack a complex ferro scale,or a complex reactive with anything. . THANK YOU DIMINISHING RETURNS!!!! Oh I'm guessing you don't do this as you find it unnecessary due to the current state of shield vs armor. That I can understand.
More than one armor repairer? Well I guess we agree there, sure is nice isn't it? That I can understand.
I am not attacking you, I am shining a light on the flaws of your implied logic. Shields are not in a good place right now. I don't think you are insulting me be stating otherwise, but you have not brought up any valid points to defend your opinion other than to state that even by denying yourself many of the benefits to tanking armor, you can still run a viable fit vs a shield tanked suit using every benefit available to shields. THAT is what boggles my mind when you follow up such statements with " shields and armor are very balanced ".
Good thing you chose to proto your armor assault after the suit respect eh? I can understand that.
agree to disagree
*Cough* Ignoring my explanations to every single point you made here *Cough*
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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voidfaction
Void of Faction
336
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 06:10:00 -
[262] - Quote
I want to propose Gallente Scout slot layout change at STD
STD 2 high 2 low - NEW
ADV 2 high 3 low - same
PRO 2 high 4 low - same
At STD level gal scout is able to beat proto level scans 100% of the time making it the only scout able to compete vs proto in a std suit. If you change the STD layout to 2 high 2 low then the gal can still beat proto level scan but only while cloaked with a proto cloak and 2x complex dampeners. Proto cloak on a std scout suit don't fit to well. This will help bring Gal scout at the std level more in line with the other scouts at STD lvl. This migh even push me out of my dragonfly BPO more often as i will not be able to run free with no worries in my std level gal scout.
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
221
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Posted - 2014.07.18 06:20:00 -
[263] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Doc DDD wrote:Excellent agree to disagree
I rep any suit with armor as a logi, a force multiplyer, especially an armor tanked gal assault, with a triage hive HE WILL NOT DIE. So i guess you were wrong there.. but hey, agree to disagree.
( by the way rep tools go in the equipment slot and as a logi I carry a gun for pew pew )
you would be amazed by the effectiveness of triage hives on an armor suit! You simply must try it some time vs shield tankers, unless you find it unnecessary due to the current state of shield vs armor. That I can understand cat merc.
stack a complex ferro scale,or a complex reactive with anything. . THANK YOU DIMINISHING RETURNS!!!! Oh I'm guessing you don't do this as you find it unnecessary due to the current state of shield vs armor. That I can understand.
More than one armor repairer? Well I guess we agree there, sure is nice isn't it? That I can understand.
I am not attacking you, I am shining a light on the flaws of your implied logic. Shields are not in a good place right now. I don't think you are insulting me be stating otherwise, but you have not brought up any valid points to defend your opinion other than to state that even by denying yourself many of the benefits to tanking armor, you can still run a viable fit vs a shield tanked suit using every benefit available to shields. THAT is what boggles my mind when you follow up such statements with " shields and armor are very balanced ".
Good thing you chose to proto your armor assault after the suit respect eh? I can understand that.
agree to disagree *Cough* Ignoring my explanations to every single point you made here *Cough*
*ahem*
No valid explanations to the discussion were given.
You basically restated that you don't require any of the added benefits to an armor based suit as you can hang with elite caldari assaulters without using triage hives, a repping logi, damage mods or anything other than the fact that armor constantlyreps you for 20 ticks per second, without interruption, for 5 seconds while that caldari waits for 5 seconds for you to jump around a corner and shoot him.
You are confusing your explanation with being a proof of shield and armor balance. That's what the discussion is about. But if you feel you must, please again explain how shields and armor are balanced because you don't use triage hives.
anything else?
*ahem*
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11098
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 06:31:00 -
[264] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Doc DDD wrote:Excellent agree to disagree
I rep any suit with armor as a logi, a force multiplyer, especially an armor tanked gal assault, with a triage hive HE WILL NOT DIE. So i guess you were wrong there.. but hey, agree to disagree.
( by the way rep tools go in the equipment slot and as a logi I carry a gun for pew pew )
you would be amazed by the effectiveness of triage hives on an armor suit! You simply must try it some time vs shield tankers, unless you find it unnecessary due to the current state of shield vs armor. That I can understand cat merc.
stack a complex ferro scale,or a complex reactive with anything. . THANK YOU DIMINISHING RETURNS!!!! Oh I'm guessing you don't do this as you find it unnecessary due to the current state of shield vs armor. That I can understand.
More than one armor repairer? Well I guess we agree there, sure is nice isn't it? That I can understand.
I am not attacking you, I am shining a light on the flaws of your implied logic. Shields are not in a good place right now. I don't think you are insulting me be stating otherwise, but you have not brought up any valid points to defend your opinion other than to state that even by denying yourself many of the benefits to tanking armor, you can still run a viable fit vs a shield tanked suit using every benefit available to shields. THAT is what boggles my mind when you follow up such statements with " shields and armor are very balanced ".
Good thing you chose to proto your armor assault after the suit respect eh? I can understand that.
agree to disagree *Cough* Ignoring my explanations to every single point you made here *Cough* *ahem* No valid explanations to the discussion were given. You basically restated that you don't require any of the added benefits to an armor based suit as you can hang with elite caldari assaulters without using triage hives, a repping logi, damage mods or anything other than the fact that armor constantlyreps you for 20 ticks per second, without interruption, for 5 seconds while that caldari waits for 5 seconds for you to jump around a corner and shoot him. You are confusing your explanation with being a proof of shield and armor balance. That's what the discussion is about. But if you feel you must, please again explain how shields and armor are balanced because you don't use triage hives. anything else? *ahem*
That's only true in your mind bud.
Now excuse me while I go stomp in my Minmatar Assault.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
|
Baal Omniscient
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
1969
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 06:39:00 -
[265] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Doc DDD wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Doc DDD wrote:Excellent agree to disagree
I rep any suit with armor as a logi, a force multiplyer, especially an armor tanked gal assault, with a triage hive HE WILL NOT DIE. So i guess you were wrong there.. but hey, agree to disagree.
( by the way rep tools go in the equipment slot and as a logi I carry a gun for pew pew )
you would be amazed by the effectiveness of triage hives on an armor suit! You simply must try it some time vs shield tankers, unless you find it unnecessary due to the current state of shield vs armor. That I can understand cat merc.
stack a complex ferro scale,or a complex reactive with anything. . THANK YOU DIMINISHING RETURNS!!!! Oh I'm guessing you don't do this as you find it unnecessary due to the current state of shield vs armor. That I can understand.
More than one armor repairer? Well I guess we agree there, sure is nice isn't it? That I can understand.
I am not attacking you, I am shining a light on the flaws of your implied logic. Shields are not in a good place right now. I don't think you are insulting me be stating otherwise, but you have not brought up any valid points to defend your opinion other than to state that even by denying yourself many of the benefits to tanking armor, you can still run a viable fit vs a shield tanked suit using every benefit available to shields. THAT is what boggles my mind when you follow up such statements with " shields and armor are very balanced ".
Good thing you chose to proto your armor assault after the suit respect eh? I can understand that.
agree to disagree *Cough* Ignoring my explanations to every single point you made here *Cough* *ahem* No valid explanations to the discussion were given. You basically restated that you don't require any of the added benefits to an armor based suit as you can hang with elite caldari assaulters without using triage hives, a repping logi, damage mods or anything other than the fact that armor constantlyreps you for 20 ticks per second, without interruption, for 5 seconds while that caldari waits for 5 seconds for you to jump around a corner and shoot him. You are confusing your explanation with being a proof of shield and armor balance. That's what the discussion is about. But if you feel you must, please again explain how shields and armor are balanced because you don't use triage hives. anything else? *ahem* That's only true in your mind bud. Now excuse me while I go stomp in my Minmatar Assault.
My favorite pastime. (looks at sig) <3
Cross Atu for CPM1
Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
|
Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
221
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 06:48:00 -
[266] - Quote
Good luck, go easy on the new disorganized players, but watch out for the gal assault, they have more advantages.
Now that he has run off :
I like the idea of the Cal assault having properties similar to both the Cal heavy and scout. Ie the one second depleted delay and upwards of 50hps. I believe this will allow the slot layouts of the proposed Cal assault suit to tank shields more effectively, but there really needs to be something that makes up for the disparity created with triage hives and repair tools. Definitely the removal of all negative effects on stacking extenders and using energizers could go along way. With only two low slots though, ouch, out of shield looks pretty rough with the way things are now.
|
Velociraptor antirrhopus
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
322
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 07:58:00 -
[267] - Quote
no sense in even posting with Doc DDD and Cat Merc drowning out everything we say
help! *gurgle* I can't swim in this giant storm of QQ!
DUST 514 Forums. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villa- er, I mean panty weights and neckbeards.
|
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11101
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 07:59:00 -
[268] - Quote
Velociraptor antirrhopus wrote:no sense in even posting with Doc DDD and Cat Merc drowning out everything we say
help! *gurgle* I can't swim in this giant storm of QQ!
QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ
There, I got it all out
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
|
IAmDuncanIdaho II
R 0 N 1 N
594
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 08:38:00 -
[269] - Quote
Velociraptor antirrhopus wrote:no sense in even posting with Doc DDD and Cat Merc drowning out everything we say
help! *gurgle* I can't swim in this giant storm of QQ!
I agree stuff is drowned out, but the discussion was quite interesting, and I'm impressed how it didn't devolve into mud-slinging. I also now understand that timing of re-engaging is paramount, and how important it is to know my recharge delays as a non-armour tanker.
Wasn't really sensing any QQ there. Except for Cat's response to yourself. ;-)
You must learn honor, or you deserve to learn nothing at all.
~ Rivvy Dinari - Swordmaster of Ginaz
|
RedBleach LeSanglant
Hellstorm Inc
League of Infamy
627
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 09:38:00 -
[270] - Quote
A PROPOSAL
I know that CCP must have data or ideas that justify certain setups. I am also pleased that there has been a move to rectify many subjects to create an evolving game that achieves a greater balance and immersion.
My beef is with the MED Frame inequalities (LOGI and ASSAULT). There is a tension between the two because there is a lack of definition with the ASSAULT type MED frame. The LOGI is well defined and remains unique and is in a good place that will be better with the proper slot adjustments. The difficulty in CCPGÇÖs position is that it has yet to make the ASSAULT Frames the defining go to suits. IGÇÖm sure that if IGÇÖm not outright just stealing the idea by not crediting authors it is only that I agree with your positions and wanted to emphasize them again, but I offer this suggestion that I like.
Defining the MED Frames
The SLOT ADJUSTMENT is a good start, but too little to move the ASSAULTS to where they will be a dominating force. It hardly seems logical that a LOGI is the same ASSAULT suit that sacrifices base stats (EHP, potential, speed, shield recharge, stamina and recharge, etc.) and their side arm (mostly) then gets to carry all this great equipment AND have more high(H) and low(L) slots.
The ASSAULT will only stand out when there is a defining difference between the two frames that makes the choice for a slayer obvious and the choice for a support role obvious.
Make the ASSAULTs mean.
THE H/L SLOT LAYOUT of each MED FRAME equal to each other or higher for ASSAULTS.
THE CPU/PG is EQUAL or higher for LOGIS but each can fit all Proto MODS and Proto GEAR (LOGI EQ and ASSAULT LW, SA)
Keep the LOGI stats as they are now.
ASSAULT stats as they are now, but more HP as planned.
First the LOGI
A LOGIGÇÖs power in MODules and EQuipment
Here the slot counts are all Equal to 8, 10, 12. BUT not all should be the same GÇô keeping a little flavor with the equipment bearers is cool. (and I support the Logi bonus changes)
UNIQUE Logis GÇô (3EQ, Side Arm, Module Focus)
AMARR
SIDE ARM (Best Choice GÇô Unique)ORMODULE Focused (IFF Bonuses Change)
S- 2H/3L/2E + Side Arm S- 3H/3L/2E
A- 2H/4L/3E + Side Arm A- 3H/4L/3E
P- 3H/5L/3E + Side Arm P- 4H/5L/3E
CALDARI
SIDE ARM (Equality - another SA option)ORMODULE Focused (Unique)
S- 3H/2L/2E + Side Arm S- 3H/3L/2E
A- 4H/2L/3E + Side Arm A- 4H/3L/3E
P- 5H/3L/3E + Side Arm P- 5H/4L/3E
EQ SPECIFIC Logis GÇô (4EQ)
GALLENTE
S- 2H/3L/3E
A- 2H/3L/3E
P- 3H/5L/4E
MINMATAR
S- 2H/2L/3E
A- 3H/3L/3E
P- 4H/4L/4E
Delivers Logis with equal slot counts (side arm = 1 EQ) Keeps them equal in tier movements.
ASSAULTS: Capable of being the most unique and powerful force out there. Lets make them that way.
AMARR
EQUAL to logi ORBETTER - Logi loses 1EQ for SA
S- 2H/3L/1E + Side Arm S- 3H/3L/1E + Side Arm
A- 2H/4L/1E + Side Arm A- 3H/4L/1E + Side Arm
P- 3H/5L/1E + Side Arm P- 4H/5L/1E + Side Arm
CALDARI
EQUAL to logi ORBETTER - Logi loses 1EQ for SA
S- 3H/2L/1E + Side Arm S- 3H/3L/1E + Side Arm
A- 4H/2L/1E + Side Arm A- 4H/3L/1E + Side Arm
P- 5H/3L/1E + Side Arm P- 5H/4L/1E + Side Arm
GALLENTE
EQUAL to logi ORBETTER - Logi loses 1H for 4thEQ
S- 2H/3L/1E + Side Arm S- 3H/3L/1E + Side Arm
A- 2H/4L/1E + Side Arm A- 3H/4L/1E + Side Arm
P- 3H/5L/1E + Side Arm P- 4H/5L/1E + Side Arm
MINMATAR
EQUAL to logi ORBETTER Focus - Logi loses 1H for 4thEQ
S- 2H/2L/1E + Side Arm S- 3H/3L/1E + Side Arm
A- 3H/3L/1E + Side Arm A- 4H/3L/1E + Side Arm
P- 4H/4L/1E + Side Arm P- 5H/4L/1E + Side Arm
IN this way The COST of not being an ASSAULT is always less modules.
Logis gain equipment but loses stat and 1 module.
Scouts gain speed and equipment but lose stats and modules.
Commandos gain HP and another LW but lose grenades and modules.
Heavies gain HW and HP but lose modules.
ASSAULTs will be the Maximum warriors even if their bonuses are not all that people may want. The modules and better stats make them awesome regardless.
It makes the ASSAULTs versatile for battle and they may even give every class a run for their money as they will be the new Logi Slayer or Brick Scout that can suddenly do everything better than every other class (with the right module)GǪ but isnGÇÖt that what the ASSAULTs were meant to do? WerenGÇÖt the other classes supposed to sacrifice to take on another role? Not all roles are equal, but balance does not mean equality.
IGÇÖll work on some CPU/PG Calculations tomorrow to try to find that sweet spot where the MED frames can have the same CPU/PG and what percentages their Bonuses need to be at in order to accommodate such a move.
ThatGÇÖs all I got for now.
The Logi Code. Cross Atu for CPM1 - A logical choice
|
|
|
Meee One
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
911
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 11:16:00 -
[271] - Quote
RedBleach LeSanglant wrote:A PROPOSAL
I know that CCP must have data or ideas that justify certain setups. I am also pleased that there has been a move to rectify many subjects to create an evolving game that achieves a greater balance and immersion.
My beef is with the MED Frame inequalities (LOGI and ASSAULT). There is a tension between the two because there is a lack of definition with the ASSAULT type MED frame. The LOGI is well defined and remains unique and is in a good place that will be better with the proper slot adjustments. The difficulty in CCPGÇÖs position is that it has yet to make the ASSAULT Frames the defining go to suits. IGÇÖm sure that if IGÇÖm not outright just stealing the idea by not crediting authors it is only that I agree with your positions and wanted to emphasize them again, but I offer this suggestion that I like.
Defining the MED Frames
The SLOT ADJUSTMENT is a good start, but too little to move the ASSAULTS to where they will be a dominating force. It hardly seems logical that a LOGI is the same ASSAULT suit that sacrifices base stats (EHP, potential, speed, shield recharge, stamina and recharge, etc.) and their side arm (mostly) then gets to carry all this great equipment AND have more high(H) and low(L) slots.
The ASSAULT will only stand out when there is a defining difference between the two frames that makes the choice for a slayer obvious and the choice for a support role obvious.
Make the ASSAULTs mean.
THE H/L SLOT LAYOUT of each MED FRAME equal to each other or higher for ASSAULTS.
THE CPU/PG is EQUAL or higher for LOGIS but each can fit all Proto MODS and Proto GEAR (LOGI EQ and ASSAULT LW, SA)
Keep the LOGI stats as they are now.
ASSAULT stats as they are now, but more HP as planned.
First the LOGI
A LOGIGÇÖs power in MODules and EQuipment
Here the slot counts are all Equal to 8, 10, 12. BUT not all should be the same GÇô keeping a little flavor with the equipment bearers is cool. (and I support the Logi bonus changes)
UNIQUE Logis GÇô (3EQ, Side Arm, Module Focus)
AMARR
SIDE ARM (Best Choice GÇô Unique)..........ORMODULE Focused (IFF Bonuses Change)
S- 2H/3L/2E + Side Arm................................S- 3H/3L/2E
A- 2H/4L/3E + Side Arm ................................A- 3H/4L/3E
P- 3H/5L/3E + Side Arm.................................P- 4H/5L/3E
CALDARI
SIDE ARM (Equality - another SA option)......ORMODULE Focused (Unique)
S- 3H/2L/2E + Side Arm ....................................S- 3H/3L/2E
A- 4H/2L/3E + Side Arm .....................................A- 4H/3L/3E
P- 5H/3L/3E + Side Arm .....................................P- 5H/4L/3E
EQ SPECIFIC Logis GÇô (4EQ)
GALLENTE
S- 2H/3L/3E
A- 2H/3L/3E
P- 3H/5L/4E
MINMATAR
S- 2H/2L/3E
A- 3H/3L/3E
P- 4H/4L/4E
Delivers Logis with equal slot counts (side arm = 1 EQ) Keeps them equal in tier movements.
ASSAULTS: Capable of being the most unique and powerful force out there. Lets make them that way.
AMARR
EQUAL to logi........................ORBETTER - Logi loses 1EQ for SA
S- 2H/3L/1E + Side Arm.............S- 3H/3L/1E + Side Arm
A- 2H/4L/1E + Side Arm.............A- 3H/4L/1E + Side Arm
P- 3H/5L/1E + Side Arm.............P- 4H/5L/1E + Side Arm
CALDARI
EQUAL to log.........................ORBETTER - Logi loses 1EQ for SA
S- 3H/2L/1E + Side Arm.............S- 3H/3L/1E + Side Arm
A- 4H/2L/1E + Side Arm..............A- 4H/3L/1E + Side Arm
P- 5H/3L/1E + Side Arm..............P- 5H/4L/1E + Side Arm
GALLENTE
EQUAL to logi........................ORBETTER - Logi loses 1H for 4thEQ
S- 2H/3L/1E + Side Arm.............S- 3H/3L/1E + Side Arm
A- 2H/4L/1E + Side Arm.............A- 3H/4L/1E + Side Arm
P- 3H/5L/1E + Side Arm.............P- 4H/5L/1E + Side Arm
MINMATAR
EQUAL to logi........................ORBETTER Focus - Logi loses 1H for 4thEQ
S- 2H/2L/1E + Side Arm.............S- 3H/3L/1E + Side Arm
A- 3H/3L/1E + Side Arm.............A- 4H/3L/1E + Side Arm
P- 4H/4L/1E + Side Arm.............P- 5H/4L/1E + Side Arm
IN this way The COST of not being an ASSAULT is always less modules.
Logis gain equipment but loses stat and 1 module.
Scouts gain speed and equipment but lose stats and modules.
Commandos gain HP and another LW but lose grenades and modules.
Heavies gain HW and HP but lose modules.
ASSAULTs will be the Maximum warriors even if their bonuses are not all that people may want. The modules and better stats make them awesome regardless.
It makes the ASSAULTs versatile for battle and they may even give every class a run for their money as they will be the new Logi Slayer or Brick Scout that can suddenly do everything better than every other class (with the right module)GǪ but isnGÇÖt that what the ASSAULTs were meant to do? WerenGÇÖt the other classes supposed to sacrifice to take on another role? Not all roles are equal, but balance does not mean equality.
IGÇÖll work on some CPU/PG Calculations tomorrow to try to find that sweet spot where the MED frames can have the same CPU/PG and what percentages their Bonuses need to be at in order to accommodate such a move.
ThatGÇÖs all I got for now.
Right after logistics gets a much needed buff to it's base stats.
|
BrotherofHavok
PIanet Express
Canis Eliminatus Operatives
69
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 14:23:00 -
[272] - Quote
Meee One wrote:
Right after logistics gets a much needed buff to it's base stats.
I don't think Logi's should be getting any kind of base stat buff. Which particular stat are you referring to?
My reasoning is that the logis have too many slots and are not suppose to be better or stronger than other suits. The whole point about a logi is to have all that equipment to SUPPORT the squad/team. is their only role support? no, every player and every suit is a mercenary first, but the logi should not be able to handle 3-4 equipment, a mix of 9 or so highs and lows, grenades and a light weapon.
The commando is a good example of the trade-offs for specialized suits. They lose a lot of highs and lows for that 2nd light weapon slot. As a matter of fact, maybe the logis shouldn't even have a light weapon slot, but instead just a side-arm slot? Maybe lose the grenade slot too, but they definitely need to lose a few highs and lows.
Sincerely,
Your Multi-purpose Everything User
|
Cody Sietz
SVER True Blood
Dark Taboo
3614
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 15:12:00 -
[273] - Quote
Since the Gallente sentinel is losing a low, can we get buff to our repair?
I run a 3 repair mods and a plate but will have to drop one of those. Tbh, you can run 2reps because your just not repairing enough with low ehp, so it's forcing me to run 2 plates and a rep instead.
I just wanna be able to fight heavies :(
"I do agree with you there though. shudders"
-Arkena Wyrnspire
|
Cody Sietz
SVER True Blood
Dark Taboo
3614
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 15:13:00 -
[274] - Quote
BrotherofHavok wrote:Meee One wrote:
Right after logistics gets a much needed buff to it's base stats.
I don't think Logi's should be getting any kind of base stat buff. Which particular stat are you referring to? My reasoning is that the logis have too many slots and are not suppose to be better or stronger than other suits. The whole point about a logi is to have all that equipment to SUPPORT the squad/team. is their only role support? no, every player and every suit is a mercenary first, but the logi should not be able to handle 3-4 equipment, a mix of 9 or so highs and lows, grenades and a light weapon. The commando is a good example of the trade-offs for specialized suits. They lose a lot of highs and lows for that 2nd light weapon slot. As a matter of fact, maybe the logis shouldn't even have a light weapon slot, but instead just a side-arm slot? Maybe lose the grenade slot too, but they definitely need to lose a few highs and lows.
Isn't the reason the Logi has low base stats because it makes up for them with its massive amount of slots?
"I do agree with you there though. shudders"
-Arkena Wyrnspire
|
CommanderBolt
ACME SPECIAL FORCES
RISE of LEGION
1353
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 15:21:00 -
[275] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Hi all, We want to have this formal discussion and get your input. We believe that the community has wanted to have some say on this issue for some time, and now that I am studying this data in detail, some things brush me the wrong way (or my OCD). Dropsuit Slot LayoutFirst table is Current, next table is proposed, and third tracks the difference in slots between the two. We don't need to do any changes to these layouts right now. However, with PG/CPU increases for the Assault class on the horizon, more based on a PG/CPU allotment per slot type, it would be the right timing to swap a high with a low in strategic places, or add missing slots. The new premise is a single matrix of racial high/low arrangements and then tactical choices of the other slots (EQ, SA, W, G). The proposed matrix is also intended to be more thematically in line with EVE Online racial slots. Amarr highest number of low slots Caldari highest number of high slots Gallente equal number of highs and lows, preferring lows Minmatar equal number of highs and lows, preferring highs Moving forward with few changes without changing the whole layout of every dropsuit is certainly on the table as well. The logi sidearm f.ex. There are other "anomalies" that I would love to discuss, such as STD and ADV logi racial differences. Of course if you see some errors, please let us know. Have at it and keep it civil and constructive!
God my eyes hurt just trying to make sense of that spreadsheet......
-=#[ Gastun's Forge ]#=-
MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
"I'm wasting away here" - "Get me back into zee fight!
|
CommanderBolt
ACME SPECIAL FORCES
RISE of LEGION
1353
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 15:23:00 -
[276] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:Good luck, go easy on the new disorganized players, but watch out for the gal assault, they have more advantages.
Now that he has run off :
I like the idea of the Cal assault having properties similar to both the Cal heavy and scout. Ie the one second depleted delay and upwards of 50hps. I believe this will allow the slot layouts of the proposed Cal assault suit to tank shields more effectively, but there really needs to be something that makes up for the disparity created with triage hives and repair tools. Definitely the removal of all negative effects on stacking extenders and using energizers could go along way. With only two low slots though, ouch, out of shield looks pretty rough with the way things are now.
Yea shields really do need loving. They can never be equal to Armour while armour has rep tools, triage hives, 100% needles etc....
(Why no shield rep tool? Why no shield repair hive? Why no 100% shield regeneration nanite injector? WHY CCP!?)
-=#[ Gastun's Forge ]#=-
MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
"I'm wasting away here" - "Get me back into zee fight!
|
Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
41
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 16:17:00 -
[277] - Quote
CommanderBolt wrote:Doc DDD wrote:Good luck, go easy on the new disorganized players, but watch out for the gal assault, they have more advantages.
Now that he has run off :
I like the idea of the Cal assault having properties similar to both the Cal heavy and scout. Ie the one second depleted delay and upwards of 50hps. I believe this will allow the slot layouts of the proposed Cal assault suit to tank shields more effectively, but there really needs to be something that makes up for the disparity created with triage hives and repair tools. Definitely the removal of all negative effects on stacking extenders and using energizers could go along way. With only two low slots though, ouch, out of shield looks pretty rough with the way things are now.
Yea shields really do need loving. They can never be equal to Armour while armour has rep tools, triage hives, 100% needles etc.... (Why no shield rep tool? Why no shield repair hive? Why no 100% shield regeneration nanite injector? WHY CCP!?)
Because (I think) all caldari must know playing "alone"
But, if CCP wants that, why 30hp/s shield regen ? need more and more ! And need more CPU pleeeeeeaaaaseeeeee
10% isn't enought
|
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11107
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 18:02:00 -
[278] - Quote
Killer's Coys wrote:CommanderBolt wrote:Doc DDD wrote:Good luck, go easy on the new disorganized players, but watch out for the gal assault, they have more advantages.
Now that he has run off :
I like the idea of the Cal assault having properties similar to both the Cal heavy and scout. Ie the one second depleted delay and upwards of 50hps. I believe this will allow the slot layouts of the proposed Cal assault suit to tank shields more effectively, but there really needs to be something that makes up for the disparity created with triage hives and repair tools. Definitely the removal of all negative effects on stacking extenders and using energizers could go along way. With only two low slots though, ouch, out of shield looks pretty rough with the way things are now.
Yea shields really do need loving. They can never be equal to Armour while armour has rep tools, triage hives, 100% needles etc.... (Why no shield rep tool? Why no shield repair hive? Why no 100% shield regeneration nanite injector? WHY CCP!?) Because (I think) all caldari must know playing "alone" But, if CCP wants that, why 30hp/s shield regen ? need more and more ! And need more CPU pleeeeeeaaaaseeeeee 10% isn't enought
*Laughs silently*
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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RedBleach LeSanglant
Hellstorm Inc
League of Infamy
632
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Posted - 2014.07.18 18:03:00 -
[279] - Quote
Or i guess we could keep the Logis as slot kings with lower base stats.... or same base stats as assaults but less modules... I don't know. Ther must be a price paid or the LOGI will just out Assault the Assault because it would be the same and have the equipment slots.
And from what CCP is saying about "not enough Assaults" that wouldn't fly i think.
The Logi Code. Cross Atu for CPM1 - A logical choice
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ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
3154
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Posted - 2014.07.18 19:07:00 -
[280] - Quote
If Logi and Assault have the same fitting capacity, base hp (not speed), and slot layout, then with correctly tuned fitting capacity and a buff to 15% fitting reduction on equipment and weapons for each class there should be no question which does which.
The Assault gets to easily fit a proto weapon while struggling to fit proto equipment and proto modules and the logi easily fits proto equipment while struggling to fit proto weapon and proto modules.
To finally reinforce this, the assault and logis both need compelling equipment and weapon bonuses to give them advantages that the other cannot receive through fitting modules alone.
If you gimp logi base stats AND gimp their slot layout... then they just become too weak to matter and will constantly get chewed up by every other class.
B C R U are letters, not words - Wierd Al Yankovich
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11108
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Posted - 2014.07.18 19:38:00 -
[281] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:If Logi and Assault have the same fitting capacity, base hp (not speed), and slot layout, then with correctly tuned fitting capacity and a buff to 15% fitting reduction on equipment and weapons for each class there should be no question which does which.
The Assault gets to easily fit a proto weapon while struggling to fit proto equipment and proto modules and the logi easily fits proto equipment while struggling to fit proto weapon and proto modules.
To finally reinforce this, the assault and logis both need compelling equipment and weapon bonuses to give them advantages that the other cannot receive through fitting modules alone.
If you gimp logi base stats AND gimp their slot layout... then they just become too weak to matter and will constantly get chewed up by every other class.
Ummm... No.
Even with current CPU/PG fitting prototype weapons is laughably easy.
What you will do is basically make Assault obsolete.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
3155
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Posted - 2014.07.18 19:58:00 -
[282] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:If Logi and Assault have the same fitting capacity, base hp (not speed), and slot layout, then with correctly tuned fitting capacity and a buff to 15% fitting reduction on equipment and weapons for each class there should be no question which does which.
The Assault gets to easily fit a proto weapon while struggling to fit proto equipment and proto modules and the logi easily fits proto equipment while struggling to fit proto weapon and proto modules.
To finally reinforce this, the assault and logis both need compelling equipment and weapon bonuses to give them advantages that the other cannot receive through fitting modules alone.
If you gimp logi base stats AND gimp their slot layout... then they just become too weak to matter and will constantly get chewed up by every other class. Ummm... No. Even with current CPU/PG fitting prototype weapons is laughably easy. What you will do is basically make Assault obsolete.
With the CR and its tiny fitting requirements, I might agree with you. Otherwise, you cannot fit proto everything on a logi suit without CPU and PG mods. Not that i've ever been able to do at least using Cal Logi pre fitting reduction or Amarr Logi post fitting reduction. I imagine it only gets more difficult with a 4th piece of proto equipment.
How does this make assaults obsolete? With compelling weapon bonuses AND what is essentially a straight buff. Then you give assaults increased base regeneration and you're in a good spot.
If you think this is wrong i'd welcome a better explanation than "um... no"
B C R U are letters, not words - Wierd Al Yankovich
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Heimdallr69
Nyain San
2822
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Posted - 2014.07.18 20:20:00 -
[283] - Quote
Make the cal ass 7/0 that way they can actually use damage mods without sacrificing their shields.
Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
229
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Posted - 2014.07.18 20:41:00 -
[284] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:If Logi and Assault have the same fitting capacity, base hp (not speed), and slot layout, then with correctly tuned fitting capacity and a buff to 15% fitting reduction on equipment and weapons for each class there should be no question which does which.
The Assault gets to easily fit a proto weapon while struggling to fit proto equipment and proto modules and the logi easily fits proto equipment while struggling to fit proto weapon and proto modules.
To finally reinforce this, the assault and logis both need compelling equipment and weapon bonuses to give them advantages that the other cannot receive through fitting modules alone.
If you gimp logi base stats AND gimp their slot layout... then they just become too weak to matter and will constantly get chewed up by every other class. Ummm... No. Even with current CPU/PG fitting prototype weapons is laughably easy. What you will do is basically make Assault obsolete.
you just said you couldnt fit damage mods because your cpu pg was too low... which is it cat merc?
still pushinig for op armor?
try for balance cat merc
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ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
3155
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Posted - 2014.07.18 20:45:00 -
[285] - Quote
Actually I take it back, with similar layout and capacity the Assault should probably keep 10% reduction and logi is buffed to 15%. This reduction would keep them more in line as Assaults have two weapons and Logis have 4 equipment.
B C R U are letters, not words - Wierd Al Yankovich
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
230
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Posted - 2014.07.18 20:58:00 -
[286] - Quote
caldari assaults need reductions to the cost of everything shield related if they are losing a low slot and cpu/pg levels are not increased even more than these new numbers.
having an armor stacked gal assault STARTING TO REP HIS SHIELDS close to when shield stacked assaults ( who specialize in shields ) start to rep thiers AFTER THE ARMOR SUIT GETS IMMEDIATE ARMOR REPS FOR 5 SECONDS..
maybe start by removing the free shield recharge on the gal suits. let thier shields stay down unless they equip a recharger..
what do you think cat merc? don't like balance? |
MOCTEZUMA WARRIOR
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
342
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Posted - 2014.07.18 20:58:00 -
[287] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:Caldari logis losing a low slot in exchange for an extra equipment slot kills the suit with current cpu levels.
shield based suits are very cpu hungry, energizers require 96 cpu, recharges and extenders also have high requirements
losing that low slot means an equipment slot may have to be empty just to have shields at a point where a scrambler rifle will still two shot you.
Running a caldari scout as a logi will be more effective than running a caldari logi as a logi unless i an really focused on using 2 extra pieces of equipment on my squishy, slow moving, no sidearm, poorly scanning, slow shield recharging, larger hit boxed, more expensive, death trap.
why run Cal logi instead of Cal scout?
Put 4 proto equips in the slots of the proposed Cal logi and see what you are left with in your other slots. It's not pretty.
no more
muthaphukkin amerikkkaz most wanted
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JRleo jr
Xer Cloud Consortium
66
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Posted - 2014.07.18 21:00:00 -
[288] - Quote
MOCTEZUMA WARRIOR wrote:Doc DDD wrote:Caldari logis losing a low slot in exchange for an extra equipment slot kills the suit with current cpu levels.
shield based suits are very cpu hungry, energizers require 96 cpu, recharges and extenders also have high requirements
losing that low slot means an equipment slot may have to be empty just to have shields at a point where a scrambler rifle will still two shot you.
Running a caldari scout as a logi will be more effective than running a caldari logi as a logi unless i an really focused on using 2 extra pieces of equipment on my squishy, slow moving, no sidearm, poorly scanning, slow shield recharging, larger hit boxed, more expensive, death trap.
why run Cal logi instead of Cal scout?
Put 4 proto equips in the slots of the proposed Cal logi and see what you are left with in your other slots. It's not pretty. no more
So, we'll fix this with 12 people and 1 older person helping us?
Max level brony.
My special magic is trolling.
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11108
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Posted - 2014.07.18 21:39:00 -
[289] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:caldari assaults need reductions to the cost of everything shield related if they are losing a low slot and cpu/pg levels are not increased even more than these new numbers.
having an armor stacked gal assault STARTING TO REP HIS SHIELDS close to when shield stacked assaults ( who specialize in shields ) start to rep thiers AFTER THE ARMOR SUIT GETS IMMEDIATE ARMOR REPS FOR 5 SECONDS..
maybe start by removing the free shield recharge on the gal suits. let thier shields stay down unless they equip a recharger..
what do you think cat merc? don't like balance?
By the time my shields start charging you have regained 300 shields.
QQ harder.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11108
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Posted - 2014.07.18 21:41:00 -
[290] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:Cat Merc wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:If Logi and Assault have the same fitting capacity, base hp (not speed), and slot layout, then with correctly tuned fitting capacity and a buff to 15% fitting reduction on equipment and weapons for each class there should be no question which does which.
The Assault gets to easily fit a proto weapon while struggling to fit proto equipment and proto modules and the logi easily fits proto equipment while struggling to fit proto weapon and proto modules.
To finally reinforce this, the assault and logis both need compelling equipment and weapon bonuses to give them advantages that the other cannot receive through fitting modules alone.
If you gimp logi base stats AND gimp their slot layout... then they just become too weak to matter and will constantly get chewed up by every other class. Ummm... No. Even with current CPU/PG fitting prototype weapons is laughably easy. What you will do is basically make Assault obsolete. you just said you couldnt fit damage mods because your cpu pg was too low... which is it cat merc? still pushinig for op armor? try for balance cat merc
A prototype weapon is more important than damage mods.
I could bring down my Duvolle to a GEK and then upgrade my damage mods to complex, but then what's the point?
It's the same net effect, only I don't gain the accuracy that a Duvolle does.
Oh and BTW, since you obviously don't know it, NOBODY WITH LIGHT WEAPONS FITS DAMAGE MODS ANYMORE.
It's pointless, an enhanced shield extender is better than prototype damage mod.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11108
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Posted - 2014.07.18 21:43:00 -
[291] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:Cat Merc wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:If Logi and Assault have the same fitting capacity, base hp (not speed), and slot layout, then with correctly tuned fitting capacity and a buff to 15% fitting reduction on equipment and weapons for each class there should be no question which does which.
The Assault gets to easily fit a proto weapon while struggling to fit proto equipment and proto modules and the logi easily fits proto equipment while struggling to fit proto weapon and proto modules.
To finally reinforce this, the assault and logis both need compelling equipment and weapon bonuses to give them advantages that the other cannot receive through fitting modules alone.
If you gimp logi base stats AND gimp their slot layout... then they just become too weak to matter and will constantly get chewed up by every other class. Ummm... No. Even with current CPU/PG fitting prototype weapons is laughably easy. What you will do is basically make Assault obsolete. With the CR and its tiny fitting requirements, I might agree with you. Otherwise, you cannot fit proto everything on a logi suit without CPU and PG mods. Not that i've ever been able to do at least using Cal Logi pre fitting reduction or Amarr Logi post fitting reduction. I imagine it only gets more difficult with a 4th piece of proto equipment. How does this make assaults obsolete? With compelling weapon bonuses AND what is essentially a straight buff. Then you give assaults increased base regeneration and you're in a good spot. If you think this is wrong i'd welcome a better explanation than "um... no"
The ability to upgrade from a GEK to a Duvolle and slightly higher regeneration is absolutely not worth losing the 4 equipment that logis have.
It's not fair trade.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
3158
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Posted - 2014.07.18 22:21:00 -
[292] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:The ability to upgrade from a GEK to a Duvolle and slightly higher regeneration is absolutely not worth losing the 4 equipment that logis have.
It's not fair trade.
to you maybe:
You are giving up a sidearm, increased regen, increased move (and strafe speed) and weapon bonuses. That is fairly substantial.
However, my comment was referring more to how a balanced slot and hp layout could make it work. I also did include that compelling weapon oriented bonuses need to be added to the assault suits, as the Gal/Cal ones are crap atm. Maybe rolled into that would be something else like the RoF increase many have proposed or something along those lines.
But... for example. Lets take the Amarr suits.
Reduction to Laser Weaponry Heat buildup and a sidearm? There is already a compelling reason to play Amarr Assault over Amarr Logi... you don't see people screaming that Amarr Logi makes the Amarr Assault suit obsolete do you? I don't. Yet with the current meta the Logi suit is likely capable of more EHP already... not exactly the same like im proposing, but more EHP.
Current Amarr Logi even has a sidearm...
You've never seemed like an assault player though. You've always undervalued move speed and sidearms.
B C R U are letters, not words - Wierd Al Yankovich
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11108
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Posted - 2014.07.18 22:26:00 -
[293] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:Cat Merc wrote:The ability to upgrade from a GEK to a Duvolle and slightly higher regeneration is absolutely not worth losing the 4 equipment that logis have.
It's not fair trade. to you maybe: You are giving up a sidearm, increased regen, increased move (and strafe speed) and weapon bonuses. That is fairly substantial. However, my comment was referring more to how a balanced slot and hp layout could make it work. I also did include that compelling weapon oriented bonuses need to be added to the assault suits, as the Gal/Cal ones are crap atm. Maybe rolled into that would be something else like the RoF increase many have proposed or something along those lines. You've never seemed like an assault player though. You've always undervalued move speed and sidearms.
Ah, I thought you meant everything the same (including sidearms and move speed) and just have different equipment counts and fitting bonuses.
Sorry about that, didn't understand you correctly.
Also, don't question me being an Assault player.
I give up half my regen to get an extra m/s so I can charge up to the enemy and destroy them in CQC.
In addition, a sidearm is much more handy now-a-days since TTK was nerfed to all hell.
Back in the Assault Logi times things died so quickly a sidearm was not really necessary.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11108
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Posted - 2014.07.18 22:29:00 -
[294] - Quote
Repair Tools:
Prototype repair tools repair 1/4th of what a militia Assault Rifle can dish out.
With none heavies, it's better to just bring out your own weapon and start dealing double the damage together, which is a far more effective way of mitigating damage.
With heavies, their HMG packs so much DPS, and they have so much HP, that it's better to keep them alive than shoot your own gun.
Their high HP allows them to survive for more rep cycles, allowing you to repair far more HP before they die than you would with smaller frames.
As such, anything smaller than a heavy is usually ignored in competitive play when in direct combat, and only used to repair the target after the fact, or when suppressed behind heavy cover.
It also requires 2 people to do, so a 2v1 comparison is invalid.
Repair Nanohives:
While certainly effective, they have key weaknesses that any good player can exploit to their advantage.
Their HP is quite low, so the use of explosives like Mass Drivers or spread weapons like HMG's clean them up very easily.
Funnily enough, both of those are anti armor weapons, so the effect is that much more when dealing with tanked targets.
They are stationary, hence they are defensive tools only. That means players using them can't flank or do some other similar maneuvers, while the attackers can basically pick and choose when to attack when it's most convinient.
Their radius of effect is as large as a grenade. Considering grenades are extremely deadly against armored targets, I think you can see what the effects of that would be
They are amazing in pub matches, but against people who know what they're doing (Stomper squads, PC matches, etc'), their effect is barely noticeable.
Injectors:
Shields start regenerating instantly after an injection, and considering the speed at which they do it, I don't think it's a big deal.
There, hopefully I made my points as fool proof as possible.
And just as a reminder, I am in support of shield Logi tools because it would give Logis more use on the battlefield.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
230
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Posted - 2014.07.18 23:07:00 -
[295] - Quote
Cat merc just wants to keep his fotm OP armor in OP status, pay no mind to him, he sincerely thinks shields and armor are balanced which is whyhe just suggested that shield suits should STACK ARMOR PLATES TO UTILIZE ALL THE ADDED BENEFITS ARMOR HAS OVER SHIELDS.
to make the suits fair and balanced gal assault suits should have ZERO SHIELD RECHARGING unless they fit a recharger.
Fair and balanced cat merc. |
ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
3158
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Posted - 2014.07.18 23:13:00 -
[296] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Injectors:
Shields start regenerating instantly after an injection, and considering the speed at which they do it, I don't think it's a big deal.
Comments like this make me a little worried. Have you ever played in PC Cat Merc?
Injectors are generally useless in PC unless you are bringing up a heavy, but for shield based suits? It's laughable how useless injectors are...
How you can even consider that reviving with 80% or 100% armor vs 0% shields is balanced concerns me...
B C R U are letters, not words - Wierd Al Yankovich
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
230
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Posted - 2014.07.18 23:17:00 -
[297] - Quote
A shield repping repair tool
A shield repping nanohive
The removal of all negative stacking effects of shield modules
shield module efficiency reworking
shield recharge time reworking
removal of gal easy mode suits to have free armor and shield recharge without recharges.
If the above points are worked adjusted we could see some true balance between shield and armor based suits.
until then we will have to listen to armor scrubs, terrified of any sort of balance, defending their OP builds.
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
230
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Posted - 2014.07.18 23:22:00 -
[298] - Quote
Z dub, cat merc is part of the problem with the community having a strong voice on the forums.
Make enough posts about needing armor buffs and maybe just maybe his kdr will go up when his suit becomes more OP. he does not understand balance and believes that because he can shoot some newberries in a shield suit that everyrhing is balanced, when deep down, I think even he knows that armor has huge advantages over shields right now.
It's the deception that I hope Ratattati can see through. |
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11112
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Posted - 2014.07.18 23:26:00 -
[299] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Injectors:
Shields start regenerating instantly after an injection, and considering the speed at which they do it, I don't think it's a big deal. Comments like this make me a little worried. Have you ever played in PC Cat Merc? Injectors are generally useless in PC unless you are bringing up a heavy, but for shield based suits? It's laughable how useless injectors are... How you can even consider that reviving with 80% or 100% armor vs 0% shields is balanced concerns me...
TBH injectors are rare for everything under heavy, shield or not.
I don't remember the last time I saw someone get revived.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
3158
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Posted - 2014.07.18 23:30:00 -
[300] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:Z dub, cat merc is part of the problem with the community having a strong voice on the forums.
Make enough posts about needing armor buffs and maybe just maybe his kdr will go up when his suit becomes more OP. he does not understand balance and believes that because he can shoot some newberries in a shield suit that everyrhing is balanced, when deep down, I think even he knows that armor has huge advantages over shields right now.
It's the deception that I hope Ratattati can see through.
The squeeky wheel always gets the grease right?
I'll admit that armor needed some help in those early days though... I remember feeling relieved every time I saw a heavy or an armored based medium frame back then cause you knew it was gonna be an easy fight.
Nowadays though I can't imagine playing a shield suit... Shield suits do need some love. Tools for better group play would be really helpful (Remote Shield Booster and some Injector love for starters...). As well as a bigger focus on shield recharge delays with the removal of the extender penalty being a good place to start as well.
Cat Merc wrote:TBH injectors are rare for everything under heavy, shield or not.
I don't remember the last time I saw someone get revived.
While a lot of that has to do with the mechanics of reviving (no press to revive), some of that has to do with how bad injectors are. However, that doesn't preclude the fact that shield users are totally boned.
B C R U are letters, not words - Wierd Al Yankovich
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
230
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Posted - 2014.07.18 23:31:00 -
[301] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Injectors:
Shields start regenerating instantly after an injection, and considering the speed at which they do it, I don't think it's a big deal. Comments like this make me a little worried. Have you ever played in PC Cat Merc? Injectors are generally useless in PC unless you are bringing up a heavy, but for shield based suits? It's laughable how useless injectors are... How you can even consider that reviving with 80% or 100% armor vs 0% shields is balanced concerns me... TBH injectors are rare for everything under heavy, shield or not. I don't remember the last time I saw someone get revived.
Not true i run injectors all the time, they only benefit armor suits as most people stacking shields would rather re spawnwith full shields. UNLESS OF COURSE THEY ARE STACK ING ARMOR PLATES. |
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11112
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Posted - 2014.07.18 23:31:00 -
[302] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:Z dub, cat merc is part of the problem with the community having a strong voice on the forums.
Make enough posts about needing armor buffs and maybe just maybe his kdr will go up when his suit becomes more OP. he does not understand balance and believes that because he can shoot some newberries in a shield suit that everyrhing is balanced, when deep down, I think even he knows that armor has huge advantages over shields right now.
It's the deception that I hope Ratattati can see through.
Go ahead, look at my posts history.
When did I ask to buff armor?
Click on search and insert my name into the character field.
I fully understand balance, and what I see in PC is equal use of shield and armor suits (From videos uploaded).
PC is usually where the most try hardy fits shine (Old Cal Logis with TAR's as an example from a while ago)
If in PC people use both equally, especially now when everyone is specced into multiple suits, I think balance is achieved/very close to be achieved.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11112
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Posted - 2014.07.18 23:36:00 -
[303] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:Cat Merc wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Injectors:
Shields start regenerating instantly after an injection, and considering the speed at which they do it, I don't think it's a big deal. Comments like this make me a little worried. Have you ever played in PC Cat Merc? Injectors are generally useless in PC unless you are bringing up a heavy, but for shield based suits? It's laughable how useless injectors are... How you can even consider that reviving with 80% or 100% armor vs 0% shields is balanced concerns me... TBH injectors are rare for everything under heavy, shield or not. I don't remember the last time I saw someone get revived. Not true i run injectors all the time, they only benefit armor suits as most people stacking shields would rather re spawnwith full shields. UNLESS OF COURSE THEY ARE STACK ING ARMOR PLATES.
The only time that would matter is when revived under fire.
Reviving under fire usually ends up with me getting a free kill from the few times I saw someone revive.
Yes even against a proto Gal Heavy stacked with plates.
It's simply an easy kill.
A Caldari Assault would have to wait around 5-6 seconds while the Gallente Assault can charge in.
However, most don't, since those Gallente too don't get their shields back, and since the recharge rate is slower, the amount of time to get back into battle with full HP is a few seconds higher. (Not by much)
Honestly, even if injectors restored shields, I still don't think injectors would be quite as common as they were in Chromo.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
230
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Posted - 2014.07.18 23:36:00 -
[304] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:Doc DDD wrote:Z dub, cat merc is part of the problem with the community having a strong voice on the forums.
Make enough posts about needing armor buffs and maybe just maybe his kdr will go up when his suit becomes more OP. he does not understand balance and believes that because he can shoot some newberries in a shield suit that everyrhing is balanced, when deep down, I think even he knows that armor has huge advantages over shields right now.
It's the deception that I hope Ratattati can see through. The squeeky wheel always gets the grease right? I'll admit that armor needed some help in those early days though... I remember feeling relieved every time I saw a heavy or an armored based medium frame back then cause you knew it was gonna be an easy fight. Nowadays though I can't imagine playing a shield suit... Shield suits do need some love. Tools for better group play would be really helpful (Remote Shield Booster and some Injector love for starters...). As well as a bigger focus on shield recharge delays with the removal of the extender penalty being a good place to start as well.
Agreed
And yes armor did need love before it got buffed, but now the needle has swung in the opposite direction and there is a glaring imbalance.
I can understand how someone that rarely plays might not notice, but to EVERY ONE else the only way you can survive without stacking a bunch of plates is to have an escape route. I have faith that Ratattati will get this right, he has done well so far and is trying very hard. |
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11112
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Posted - 2014.07.18 23:37:00 -
[305] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:Doc DDD wrote:Z dub, cat merc is part of the problem with the community having a strong voice on the forums.
Make enough posts about needing armor buffs and maybe just maybe his kdr will go up when his suit becomes more OP. he does not understand balance and believes that because he can shoot some newberries in a shield suit that everyrhing is balanced, when deep down, I think even he knows that armor has huge advantages over shields right now.
It's the deception that I hope Ratattati can see through. The squeeky wheel always gets the grease right? I'll admit that armor needed some help in those early days though... I remember feeling relieved every time I saw a heavy or an armored based medium frame back then cause you knew it was gonna be an easy fight. Nowadays though I can't imagine playing a shield suit... Shield suits do need some love. Tools for better group play would be really helpful (Remote Shield Booster and some Injector love for starters...). As well as a bigger focus on shield recharge delays with the removal of the extender penalty being a good place to start as well. Cat Merc wrote:TBH injectors are rare for everything under heavy, shield or not.
I don't remember the last time I saw someone get revived. While a lot of that has to do with the mechanics of reviving (no press to revive), some of that has to do with how bad injectors are. However, that doesn't preclude the fact that shield users are totally boned.
Actually the shield delays affect me more as an armor tanker.
My base delay is 10 seconds, so if I try to stack shields, it penalises me more than a Caldari with a base of 5.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
231
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Posted - 2014.07.18 23:38:00 -
[306] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Doc DDD wrote:Cat Merc wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Injectors:
Shields start regenerating instantly after an injection, and considering the speed at which they do it, I don't think it's a big deal. Comments like this make me a little worried. Have you ever played in PC Cat Merc? Injectors are generally useless in PC unless you are bringing up a heavy, but for shield based suits? It's laughable how useless injectors are... How you can even consider that reviving with 80% or 100% armor vs 0% shields is balanced concerns me... TBH injectors are rare for everything under heavy, shield or not. I don't remember the last time I saw someone get revived. Not true i run injectors all the time, they only benefit armor suits as most people stacking shields would rather re spawnwith full shields. UNLESS OF COURSE THEY ARE STACK ING ARMOR PLATES. The only time that would matter is when revived under fire. Reviving under fire usually ends up with me getting a free kill from the few times I saw someone revive. Yes even against a proto Gal Heavy stacked with plates. It's simply an easy kill. A Caldari Assault would have to wait around 5-6 seconds while the Gallente Assault can charge in. However, most don't, since those Gallente too don't get their shields back, and since the recharge rate is slower, the amount of time to get back into battle with full HP is a few seconds higher. (Not by much) Honestly, even if injectors restored shields, I still don't think injectors would be quite as common as they were in Chromo.
lol wow so you get a free kill when I revive a 1200 hp heavy with a 100% needle while you are reloading then immediate start repping him?
Stick to pub stomping and crying for more armor buffs. You have no place in any discussions about balance. |
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4511
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 23:44:00 -
[307] - Quote
Please stay on topic as requested and reply with the new slot layouts you agree with, only. Thanks.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
|
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11115
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Posted - 2014.07.18 23:44:00 -
[308] - Quote
The buffs armor got since Uprising 1.0:
Increased HP on all plates by 20, from 65/95/115 to 85/115/135
Reduced speed penalty from 3/5/10 to 2/3/5 (Now at 3/4/5)
Buffed Repairers from 2/3/5 to 2.5/5/7.5
The buffs shields got since Uprising 1.0:
Increased HP on STD/ADV extenders from 22/33 to 33/50
Buffed Complex shield recharger CPU cost from 90CPU to 85CPU
Increased Recharger bonuses from 15%/25%/42% to 25%/35%/45%
Buffed Energizers from 25%/45%/60% to 35%/55%/65%
Buffed Shield regulators from 10%/20%/25% to 15%/25%/35%
When did the imbalance happen?
Doc DDD wrote:
lol wow so you get a free kill when I revive a 1200 hp heavy with a 100% needle while you are reloading then immediate start repping him?
Stick to pub stomping and crying for more armor buffs. You have no place in any discussions about balance.
Yes actually.
The stand up animation gives me enough time to kill them/drop their HP a lot.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11115
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 23:45:00 -
[309] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Please stay on topic as requested and reply with the new slot layouts you agree with, only. Thanks.
Roger that Rattati.
Sorry for the above post, I was writing it before you made the request.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
231
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Posted - 2014.07.18 23:48:00 -
[310] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Doc DDD wrote:Z dub, cat merc is part of the problem with the community having a strong voice on the forums.
Make enough posts about needing armor buffs and maybe just maybe his kdr will go up when his suit becomes more OP. he does not understand balance and believes that because he can shoot some newberries in a shield suit that everyrhing is balanced, when deep down, I think even he knows that armor has huge advantages over shields right now.
It's the deception that I hope Ratattati can see through. Go ahead, look at my posts history. When did I ask to buff armor? Click on search and insert my name into the character field. I fully understand balance, and what I see in PC is equal use of shield and armor suits (From videos uploaded). PC is usually where the most try hardy fits shine (Old Cal Logis with TAR's as an example from a while ago) If in PC people use both equally, especially now when everyone is specced into multiple suits, I think balance is achieved/very close to be achieved.
In pc, if you run a shield suit you better be invisible as often as possible. Thus is not from watching year old YouTube videos of some scrub corps playing.
If you are pushing a point you better a have armor stacked gal heavies being repped by min logis. Shield are not as viable as armor, so 99% of assaulters STACK PLATES.
there is no balance in pc no matter how many videos you have watched on YouTube. |
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
233
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Posted - 2014.07.18 23:49:00 -
[311] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Please stay on topic as requested and reply with the new slot layouts you agree with, only. Thanks. Roger that Rattati. Sorry for the above post, I was writing it before you made the request.
Same |
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11117
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 23:54:00 -
[312] - Quote
Well, I don't think there's much to say about the slots.
If the Assault CPU/PG buff is high enough to allow Caldari to use shields without CPU mods, I don't think there will be any issues.
Are we getting a spreadsheet about that anytime soon?
I would like to theorycraft.
Edit: Nevermind, just saw the spreadsheet, will report with results soon.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11117
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 23:56:00 -
[313] - Quote
Oh and will you be combining your spreadsheets into one with different tabs like in Bravo?
It's more convenient that way and allows us to track the changes better.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4512
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 00:00:00 -
[314] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Well, I don't think there's much to say about the slots.
If the Assault CPU/PG buff is high enough to allow Caldari to use shields without CPU mods, I don't think there will be any issues.
Are we getting a spreadsheet about that anytime soon?
I would like to theorycraft.
Edit: Nevermind, just saw the spreadsheet, will report with results soon.
It's already stickied and please note they are based on current layouts.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Heimdallr69
Nyain San
2824
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 00:01:00 -
[315] - Quote
I'm just gonna state this now.. Benefits of armor : double the hp of shields, 2-3 damage mods without losing your hp, can be repped by other players or a triage hive, when getting shot it doesn't stop your reps but you rep through it whereas even 1 damage to shields will completely stop the regen.
Benefits of shields- no movement penalty.
My opinion is the cal ass should be all highs 7/0.
Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro
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Cu' Chulainn
A.O.D.
VP Gaming Alliance
9
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Posted - 2014.07.19 00:04:00 -
[316] - Quote
BlazeXYZ wrote:If i'm right the amarr assault will have 1042.5 armor with 5 lows.
yeah but anyone who would run that suit with the movement penalties would be as good as dead...stuck in the mud... Gallente proto assault gets near 800-900 now, but is a sitting duck as Scouts & caldari assaults jump around all nimbly-bimbly shooting and chipping it away with anything they choose
lol |
Cu' Chulainn
A.O.D.
VP Gaming Alliance
9
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 00:08:00 -
[317] - Quote
This may have been addressed already.... I do wish for an extra high slot on gallente heavy (maybe asking too much), or a better than 1pt amor rep rate (why even put it?) ... they are slowest and clumsiest of heavies...cant stand up to Amar Sentinal on even ground. I was excited when Gallente class came out and I re-spec'd from Amar Sentinal to Gallente... I now feel it was a mistake.
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11118
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 00:09:00 -
[318] - Quote
Heimdallr69 wrote:I'm just gonna state this now.. Benefits of armor : double the hp of shields, 2-3 damage mods without losing your hp, can be repped by other players or a triage hive, when getting shot it doesn't stop your reps but you rep through it whereas even 1 damage to shields will completely stop the regen.
Benefits of shields- no movement penalty.
My opinion is the cal ass should be all highs 7/0.
Oh ffs, please don't start this again.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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BlazeXYZ
xCosmic Voidx
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
47
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Posted - 2014.07.19 00:13:00 -
[319] - Quote
Cu' Chulainn wrote:BlazeXYZ wrote:If i'm right the amarr assault will have 1042.5 armor with 5 lows. yeah but anyone who would run that suit with the movement penalties would be as good as dead...stuck in the mud... Gallente proto assault gets near 800-900 now, but is a sitting duck as Scouts & caldari assaults jump around all nimbly-bimbly shooting and chipping it away with anything they choose lol
If I ever see a 5 plated amarr assualt, he better have a logi with him or he's dead.
The Blazing Intellect Machine
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Cu' Chulainn
A.O.D.
VP Gaming Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 00:16:00 -
[320] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Rattati, my mind is blowing up trying to figure out competitive Gal Assault configurations when Amarr Assault has 2/5 slots.
Nothing I can build is competitive, dual tank, armor tank, armor repair, whatever.
And I KNOW how to build armor suits, I have analyzed the ever living crap out of armor since Uprising 1.0 along with Arkena Wyrnspire to create the armor buff thread back before 1.4.
It's really a matter of make high slot utility modules useful, or Gallente Assault will be useless.
Gallente Assault is already useless...Gallente Scout of same level has better survival ability than the assualt in open combat due to mobility... I have tried every configuration that should benefit Gallente assault with little or no progress to disprove my previous statement.... Assault rifle bonus is reall y awesome and I love using the AR however the AR doesn't match well against Combat, Scrambler or Rail Rifles. |
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Velociraptor antirrhopus
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
336
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Posted - 2014.07.19 00:38:00 -
[321] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:It isn't losing a low slot already, there is an ongoing discussion about it maybe switching a slot, Please keep that in mind and comment in the relevant thread.
Please consider not doing this.
Heavy slot layouts have never been anywhere near comparable to medium and light frames. What would happen if you swapped a Caldari high slot with a low slot? INSANELY fast shield repair that would probably make them OP.
I'm sick of this Eve-lore idealism, everything must be identical bull crap.
You remember when you said "we don't want scouts throwing frisbees at heavies and instakilling them?" This will probably allow basic remotes to OHKO the Amarr again.
I was just starting to like having the freedom to use a shield extender. Now I can't? Come on. Also, this will make Gallente heavies faster which is also something you didn't want before.
DUST 514 Forums. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villa- er, I mean panty weights and neckbeards.
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The Eristic
Dust 90210
573
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 01:55:00 -
[322] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Please stay on topic as requested and reply with the new slot layouts you agree with, only. Thanks.
I'm pretty happy with the proposed changes. I have virtually every suit to advanced or higher on different characters, and these layouts and growth (combined with the proposed resource buffs for Assaults) are fairly close to what I've thought most appropriate for nearly all of them except the Logis. Still not so sure about the normalization there, honestly. It's good that the Cal would lose a low and gain an equip (IF it can fit it), but I'm not completely sold on the idea of the Amarr losing its sidearm. It gives the suit a little more flavor.
Reality is the original Rorschach.
Verily! So much for all that.
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RedBleach LeSanglant
Hellstorm Inc
League of Infamy
634
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 04:33:00 -
[323] - Quote
I like the slot layouts generally.
Standardizing the slot count for each class and then having that fluctuate according to race is appropriate.
I am against removing the A-Logi side arm and standardizing it to be a logi like the Minmatar or Gallente.
I am against standardizing the C-Logi as well.
The Logi bonuses are so unappealing for these two, combined with previous poor slot layouts or lack of fitting power, just increasing the slot count to make them more similar (4EQ each) isn't fun. - while this is not the forum for that discussion I feel like it makes am impact here which is why I bring it up.
Personally I love the variability that comes with more modules. Modules make the suits. The class with the most modules would be the biggest hit IFF (if and only if) it was also for the best for most everything else. Great HP, speed, versatility, DPS potential.
I Really feel that as is the module changes will not bring the Assaults into the limelight that CCP desires. CCP wants more Assaults. They want the assaults to be the main, go-to, suit. For that to happen they need to be given a little push. The bonuses are unappealing (so I've heard - I'm logi not assault - but again not for this forum) but modules allow players to create their unique fighters.
Modules are the power that can move players into different classes. Thus, either moving the H/L slot count of the Assault to equal a logis would bring a new level of power to the class.
BUT Moving them one further, one more so that they would have the 9 possible of the highest potential every player would flock to that class because the masterpieces that a player could create would be a great amount of fun. It would be an overpowering class but perhaps there could be balance if other classes moved to higher slots as well.
OR MAYBE THOSE are the suits we would find in JOVIAN Facilities in Legion??????
Either way the MED FRAMES should be equal in their H/L slot count to make the assaults viable again. My Thoughts anyway.
BUT later, please help my logi brethren one day.
The Logi Code. Cross Atu for CPM1 - A logical choice
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CommanderBolt
ACME SPECIAL FORCES
RISE of LEGION
1360
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Posted - 2014.07.19 12:20:00 -
[324] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Rattati, my mind is blowing up trying to figure out competitive Gal Assault configurations when Amarr Assault has 2/5 slots.
Nothing I can build is competitive, dual tank, armor tank, armor repair, whatever.
And I KNOW how to build armor suits, I have analyzed the ever living crap out of armor since Uprising 1.0 along with Arkena Wyrnspire to create the armor buff thread back before 1.4.
It's really a matter of make high slot utility modules useful, or Gallente Assault will be useless. I think we need to buff dmg mods a bit.
#slowclap
Well we did try and warn you that 5% at proto was too little.
I always felt that Mil/Std = 3% Adv = 5% Proto = 7.5% would have been better. Hell maybe even return them to 10% value at proto BUT increase the diminishing returns scale to stop huge stacking of damage mods.
Make 1 to 2 dmg mods viable but limit 4+ Dmg mod spam.
-=#[ Gastun's Forge ]#=-
MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
"I'm wasting away here" - "Get me back into zee fight!
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Nirwanda Vaughns
426th Infantry
649
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 17:42:00 -
[325] - Quote
quite impressed to see a game developer that knows jack s*** about its own games lore. caldari and gallente are opposites of each other whereas minmatar and amarr are similar but min favoring shields slightly and amarr armor. caldari should be heavy shields (most hislots) gallente should be heavy armor (most lowslots) and minmatar are a little bit of a mixed bag. their scouts and assaults are quick moving heavy shielders while their logi and 'sluggers are armor to compensate for the laser weapons used by amarr (bad against armor) and amarr have adapted to go a mix between armor and shields favoring armor to compensate for the Explosive and Kinetic damage minny weaponry uses
Caldari are long range, medium damage users, gallente are your up front high damage. an idea would be to reduce their stamina and movement speed and increase sprint speed so they act almost liek their blaster ships. you have a short high speed sprint to get into range allowing use of the blasters. caldari i would drop range and damage slightly on rails and give assault bonus to bring them back up to current levels (as the ships get the range bonus)
if you want to mess about with suits then instead of p**sing off the hardcore lore guys then introduce the much wanted type II utilizing things like the Khanid for amarr with more focus on shields, split minmatar between Thukker and Brutor suits to split game styles, have caldari suits made by two of the leading weapon corporations and same with gallente. split suits between duvolle and creodron depending on the suit type.
i know you've effectivly sh*tcanned this game but at least have decency to put in a bit of effort for those of us who have stuck around and perhaps look at the rich history CCP have made for new eden and the races and give us a bit of variety till the playerbase eventually dies or legion gets an alpha/beta release
Rolling with the punches
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RedBleach LeSanglant
Hellstorm Inc
League of Infamy
636
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 19:51:00 -
[326] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:
The new premise is a single matrix of racial high/low arrangements and then tactical choices of the other slots (EQ, SA, W, G). The proposed matrix is also intended to be more thematically in line with EVE Online racial slots.
Amarr highest number of low slots
Caldari highest number of high slots
Gallente equal number of highs and lows, preferring lows
Minmatar equal number of highs and lows, preferring highs
Moving forward with few changes without changing the whole layout of every dropsuit is certainly on the table as well. The logi sidearm f.ex. There are other "anomalies" that I would love to discuss, such as STD and ADV logi racial differences.
Of course if you see some errors, please let us know.
Have at it and keep it civil and constructive!
I like the Premise of the changes. I also like equalizing the slots among the races AND equalizing the steps in the tiers.
You asked specifically about the STD and ADV logi racial differences and I would like to speak to that.
LOGI TIER STEPS - CURRENT
AMARR
Standard---2H/2L/2E + Side Arm Start with 9 slots (including LW/Grenade)
Advanced--3H/3L/3E + Side Arm +2 slots
Proto--------3H/4L/3E + Side Arm +1 slot = 12 slot (including LW/GR)
MINMATAR
S- 2H/2L/3E 9 slots
A- 3H/3L/3E +2 slots
P- 4H/4L/4E +3 slots = 14 slot (LW/GR included)
The AMARR suit and the MINMATAR suit are the most acceptable in their current steps up the tier ladder, despite the disparity of slots, because they both start with enough slots to play with. There is adequate front loading of options at the STD level. 2H/2L allow for a decent beginning roll out and allows the player to begin to experiment, but the 2/2 is also not quite enough to feel the impact of a good build unless both slots are double stacked with the same mod, but then the fitting isn't as viable.
For example rolling out with 2 extenders and 1armor plate and one rep plate is a common logi build, not the best but it focuses on defense and being able to take care of yourself with repps, it is survivable but not focused. To get a feel for something having a bit more focus you either need to step up the module level or double up on it. And doing that at the STD level doesn't leave the suit with any other available modules to help balance it out, SO you have to move up to the next level, ADV, to experiment with a viable fit that has more variety. In order to try a CODE Breaker fit with a KINkat or 1plate and 2repps with dmg mods or shield energizers, or whatever.
BUT that only works because the step to ADV brings another 2 module slots.
Here at the ADV build there is enough room to play and feel the effects of the changes and build more survivable suits. The isk cost is manageable as well. IF all the modules are ADV (different discussion as PG/CPU limits don't really allow it) I manage the loss by knowing I can die X number of times in battle before I have to drop down to the STD level or go ISK negative.
While I don't like that the two races end with a different slot count (looking forward to that remedy) they begin with enough slots to play, the ADV tier brings more playability with the room to experiment. The PRO tier and the difference in the jump between the two Suit types with one being 3 slots and the other only 1 slot increase is not good. - For the Amarr it is almost not worth it, but we do it for the PG/CPU. For the Minmatar it is GREAT! a whole new level of options!
On to our other outliers
CALDARI
S- 2H/1L/2E 7 Slots
A- 3H/2L/3E +3 slots
P- 5H/4L/3E +4 slots = 14 Slots
Finally balanced at Proto. But the STD level is not much to work with. It is a scout slot count but with terrible stats, no sidearm, and no grenade! Not a fun build, little survivability and little experimentation options. It is not an soldier logi with a side arm and yet it has a lower slot count, but it is not a pack mule logi either that can carry the equipment like the mimnatar. The STD level really has no place and is quite worthless. The jump to ADV level actually makes the suit viable. At this level it is like its MIN cousin at the STD level. It finally has some slots to experiment with, and enough EQ slots to do some decent Logi work. The ADV and PRO tiers are the only ones that are worth working with as the gimpy stats of the Logi need modules to pad a stat or two and have some survivability.
The jump from ADV to PRO at 4 slots is ridiculous - makes it worth the money for the slots - but ridiculous. This logi suffers because the STD is not enough and the tier progression so great that only higher tiers are viable - it makes the viable builds very expensive to run. ISK disparity in the risk/reward of just being able to run STD.
GALLENTE
S- 0H/2L/3E 7 slots
A- 2H/3L/3E +3 slots
P- 3H/5L/4E +4 slots = 14 slots
WORST STD EVER. Similar to the Caldari the builds only become a viable Logi build at the ADV level, 2 lows is too low for a slot count. AND WHAT A STEP! 3 slots. In fact it is exactly like the Caldari for all intents and purposes of discussion. The build differs in 1 more EQ slot to make it and the Minmatar the only two that can haul anything needed with 4EQ. The gap is too great between the tiers making crossing these tier canyons the only choice to play these races.
(Continues to next post)
The Logi Code. Cross Atu for CPM1 - A logical choice
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RedBleach LeSanglant
Hellstorm Inc
League of Infamy
636
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 19:53:00 -
[327] - Quote
SOLUTIONS
What we see is that the tier steps are too great in some cases and smooth even steps in other examples.
What I would propose is:
1.All Logi slot counts equalized to 14 slots (despite how the layouts may end up).
2.All Logi suits start with the same slot count.
3.Slot counts should be front loaded .
I suggest 8, 9, or 10 so that the builds can also be variable and the Logi can play with different fitting to see what matches their play style.
4. Each step should be equalized to give a clear sense of progression and advantage.
Meaning that it is +2 slots from STD to ADV and a +2 to PRO or take the +2 then +3. These smaller steps give a clear advantage over the previous tier but are not so significant as to rule out using the tier before it. Yet the shift from STD to PRO, while great, is not so vast as to nullify all options except for PRO suits which is what happens with the Caldari and Gallente models.
Here are my suggestions that follow the above rules:
AMARR (Current)
S- 2H/3L/2E + Side Arm 10 (LW/G)
A- 2H/4L/3E + Side Arm +2
P- 3H/5L/3E + Side Arm +2 = 14
OR
S- 2H/2L/2E + Side Arm 9 (LW/G)
A- 2H/3L/3E + Side Arm +2
P- 3H/5L/3E + Side Arm +3 = 14
CALDARI (Current)
S- 3H/3L/2E 10 (LW/G)
A- 4H/3L/3E +2
P- 5H/4L/3E +2 = 14
OR
S- 3H/2L/2E 9 (LW/G)
A- 4H/2L/3E +2
P- 5H/4L/3E +3 = 14
GALLENTE
S- 2H/3L/3E 10 (LW/G)
A- 3H/4L/3E +2
P- 3H/5L/4E +2 = 14
OR
S- 2H/2L/3E 9 (LW/G)
A- 2H/4L/3E +2
P- 3H/5L/4E +3 = 14
MINMATAR
S- 3H/2L/3E 10 (LW/G)
A- 4H/3L/3E +2
P- 4H/4L/4E +2 = 14
OR
S- 2H/2L/3E 9 (LW/G)
A- 3H/3L/3E +2
P- 4H/4L/4E +3 = 14
Delivers Logis with equal slot counts and keeps them equal in tier movements.
Personally, after looking at the progression it is difficult for me to decide which to take. The 10 slots starting out is more than what I am used to, but it also makes it a very choice suit. The extra open slots starting out would allow more variability and if PG/CPU stayed relatively the same the mods of the same nature (PG/CPU mods) will need to be used, and perhaps that is what the extra slots will be for. Plus the steps from STD to ADV and ADV to PRO suits offer even progression and have clear benefits for use. The canyon between STD and PRO is standardized, even, and is not as great as it was before for some fits.
The 9 slot suit starting out I am familiar with and the step to PRO is a big one but I also wonder if that is best, it may not be because while PRO equipment is the best it the gap in performance may be to large. The +3 from ADV to PRO may be more than what is healthy for balance. It is still not as bad as the +5 or +4 of the current version so at least it is better. But is it Best?
I donGÇÖt know. But this is where IGÇÖve placed my thoughts.
CCP Rattati, what are the anomalies you wanted to discuss?
The Logi Code. Cross Atu for CPM1 - A logical choice
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
11429
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 20:09:00 -
[328] - Quote
Spreadsheet proposed Cal scout
STD 3/1
ADV 4/1 (can have just 1 dampener) please change to 3/2 for dampeners. All other scouts can have 2 dampeners at ADV
PRO 4/2
The advanced Cal scout is the only thing I feel is a genuine balance concern with the spreadsheet proposal.
Other than that, I have no serious problems with the proposals, and look forward to them.
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4561
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 20:16:00 -
[329] - Quote
The variable slot count per tier for the logis specifically. I don't see a reason why we don't equalize slot count per tier this round. Any objections? :)
Thanks for the detailed feedback, it verifies my thoughts.
I would like to discuss having two passive logis that need to defend their placed equipment, AM and CA and two active logis, MM and GA. I.e. trading the CA low for a sidearm.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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BL4CKST4R
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
2853
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Posted - 2014.07.19 20:55:00 -
[330] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:The variable slot count per tier for the logis specifically. I don't see a reason why we don't equalize slot count per tier this round. Any objections? :)
Thanks for the detailed feedback, it verifies my thoughts.
I would like to discuss having two passive logis that need to defend their placed equipment, AM and CA and two active logis, MM and GA. I.e. trading the CA low for a sidearm.
They should lose more than one slot for that side arm.
supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
11429
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Posted - 2014.07.19 20:59:00 -
[331] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:The variable slot count per tier for the logis specifically. I don't see a reason why we don't equalize slot count per tier this round. Any objections? :)
Thanks for the detailed feedback, it verifies my thoughts.
I would like to discuss having two passive logis that need to defend their placed equipment, AM and CA and two active logis, MM and GA. I.e. trading the CA low for a sidearm.
I fully support total module slot count equalization per tier.
WHY would you propose taking away the Amarr logi's sdearm, and then propose adding a sidearm to Cal logi? I don't understand, please explain your rationale.
To be clear, are you proposing the Cal logi keep their current small amount of equipment slots, but lose their 9th module from a low in exchange for gaining a sidearm? I'm trying to understand exactly what you're proposing.
EDIT: a sidearm should mean having EITHER less total module slots than other logis as a tradeoff, OR less equipment slots than other logis, but not both of these penalties.
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4565
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Posted - 2014.07.19 21:14:00 -
[332] - Quote
I don't understand the confusion, I originally said I don't like the complete irregularity that the Amarr logi sidearm is, because it obfuscates all true comparisons between the logis.
Now, if Caldari logis have a sidearm, and the same number of slots as the Amarr, then there is no singular discrepancy, then there is a reason and we can balance the two combat logis against each other.
Just as if we would remove the Amarr sidearm and the CA low, and equalize all the logis at all tiers.
I maintain that the dropsuit is such a fundamental item in the dust balance, that slot layouts should be very consistent, logical and not have inherent discrepancies, because those layouts translate into PG/CPU. That's why we are proposing a single matrix of universal dropsuit layouts. And that is also, why the CA ADV scout has 4-1, changing that single one to 3-2 would "break" the whole universal proposal.
The differences should be at the role/racial and module/weapon level and that's where our choices become truly meaningful.
In the end, none of these changes are necessary, they have been this way for a long time and maybe they shouldn't be touched. I am sure we can find other things to balance.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
11429
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Posted - 2014.07.19 21:25:00 -
[333] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:I don't understand the confusion, I originally said I don't like the complete irregularity that the Amarr logi sidearm is, because it obfuscates all true comparisons between the logis.
Now, if Caldari logis have a sidearm, and the same number of slots as the Amarr, then there is no singular discrepancy, then there is a reason and we can balance the two combat logis against each other.
Just as if we would remove the Amarr sidearm and the CA low, and equalize all the logis at all tiers.
I maintain that the dropsuit is such a fundamental item in the dust balance, that slot layouts should be very consistent, logical and not have inherent discrepancies, because those layouts translate into PG/CPU. That's why we are proposing a single matrix of universal dropsuit layouts. And that is also, why the CA ADV scout has 4-1, changing that single one to 3-2 would "break" the whole universal proposal.
The differences should be at the role/racial and module/weapon level and that's where our choices become truly meaningful.
In the end, none of these changes are necessary, they have been this way for a long time and maybe they shouldn't be touched. I am sure we can find other things to balance.
So you're considering giving both the Amarr and Caldai logis sidearms? you should have been more clear.
I would be fine with both the Amarr and Caldari logis having a sidearm, as long as they both either have less total module slots than other logis (7 instead of 8), OR have less equipment slot than other logis (2 at standard, 3 at proto), but not both penalties (the current Amarr logi currently has both penalties).
Also, I see no problem with irregularity when it comes to balancing, as long as the tradeoff causing the irregularity is equivalent and clear (like dropsuit A is different from others of the type because it trades an X slot to gain a Y slot)
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
240
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Posted - 2014.07.19 21:34:00 -
[334] - Quote
I think it works if the Cal logi gets a nice chunk of its cpu nerfed a year ago back.
otherwise it needs the low, with more base cpu and a sidearm there would be less armor tanking Cal logis as from the looks of it the Cal assault may start looking more attractive. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
11431
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Posted - 2014.07.19 21:51:00 -
[335] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:I think it works if the Cal logi gets a nice chunk of its cpu nerfed a year ago back.(shield based suit)
Without cpu buff it needs the low.(for a chip)
With more base cpu and a sidearm there would be less armor tanking Cal logis as from the looks of it the Cal assault may start looking more attractive if it's shields get more effective.
Yeah, I think the CPU nerf should be reversed. The CPU was never the problem in my opinion, it was the 9 module slots.
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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RedBleach LeSanglant
Hellstorm Inc
League of Infamy
637
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Posted - 2014.07.19 22:03:00 -
[336] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:The variable slot count per tier for the logis specifically. I don't see a reason why we don't equalize slot count per tier this round. Any objections? :)
Thanks for the detailed feedback, it verifies my thoughts.
I would like to discuss having two passive logis that need to defend their placed equipment, AM and CA and two active logis, MM and GA. I.e. trading the CA low for a sidearm.
No objections to the slot count equalization here. :)
Concerning the AM and CA logis as Passive Logis and the GA and MM logis as Active Logis:
ON PASSIVE LOGIS - their need to defend placed equipment.
Ultimately I do like the term Passive Logi. It categorizes their specialties in a way that I didn't really consider before. I had always just considered every Logi as an active logi and that doesn't fit the AM and CA bonuses which is why I have always disliked them. I have always seen a logi with a repair tool, nano, and sick stick (injector) - see my guide The Logi Code. Many logis came together and helped me build that resource that is still used and updated today. We keep trying to make it better and better for the new users. There we have always viewed each Logi as an active Logi and any that could not perform like a Logibro fell out of favor with our group.
The bonuses have been the real divider for the logistics group (relevant because this is what has killed the use of the CAL logi and lessened the use of the AM logi in the Logibro group). The bonuses' first introduction was better received than the latter as with the Logibro crowd we focus on Rep/Rez/Resupply with Rally/Reinforce being lower on the list; and the Minmatar got the best one for what we do, that plus the equipment nerf and CPU nerf really did in the CA Logi. - Sorry for the segway but a reanalysis of the Logi Bonuses is justified because the logistics is not just an EQuipment hauler but more the focused Logibro that supports his team mates. Anyway, moving on.
AMARR
The Amarr Logi as a Passive Logi can work well. It classifies them and announces that they are simply better at placing equipment and adding some firepower to the team. Dropping an uplink here and there, repping, rezzing after a small skirmish makes sense because they can't active Logi as well. It may also mean that they are more of the AV logi and Ammo Logi - not as relied upon for repair or scanning. I love this Logi - I love the challenge, but I try to play him as an Active Logi and that is when I dislike the bonuses. But He is my "go to" for running without a squad. If he can keep his sidearm I'm all in.
If he/she were to receive the extra low that has been lacking that turns him into more of the armor laden defender and 'last man standing' to defend and support the group. I like it.
CALDARI
I can see this working. Due to the nature of the CA bonus and defining it as a Passive Logi it would make it specialized as the AMARR is in being able to handle a bit more combat. The High Slots combined with the side arm would make for a great AV Logi that relies upon a side arm for combat but can save the team when an LAV or Dropship rolls in. - those highs for damage mods are useful when it comes to AV. He would be thin in the EHP department and would still need to run with the team. His Nano bonus demands it.
The slot adjustment would make it so that its current CPU might actually work for a sidearm rather than another module and having a consistent tier progression would be awesome to make STD and ADV suits a valid choice for battle.
SIDE NOTE: Like I said earlier the CA logi has had the short end of the stick as far as deals go. This relates to its bonus and history. Its bonus may need to be looked at or a resupply option found for Nano-Hives. They disappear so fast that another look at making them able to be restocked at a Resupply just by standing there, adding another 1 to the count a CA can carry, or increasing their nano count would be justified later on to bring it into the logi fold. THIS is not a deal breaker, bonuses are not on the table, but if/when we get back around to looking at logis and bonuses an adjustments conversation would be great.
ACTIVE LOGIs
The 4 Equipment mules see little in the way of change that comes with their definition. BUT the slot change for the Gallente would be tremendous. Having any sort of balanced progression may affect beginners more than veterans who have already leveled up to PRO, but having this change makes other setups in the Gallente tiers, besides just PRO viable - so it makes a second option for support rather than just saying that the MIN is the only balanced logi and pushing all new players that direction if they want to go the active Logi route.
I would like to take these changes to my guide. And be better able to define the roles and advise new players.
SUPPORTED
Equalizing the logis it so we don't have these two outliers (one with a sidearm and one with a module bonus) in the Logi lineup but rather Two ACTIVEs and two PASSIVEs is an acceptable and ingenious compromise to pushing them all to fit the active role - a great solution, thank you for bringing it up.
The Logi Code. Cross Atu for CPM1 - A logical choice
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RedBleach LeSanglant
Hellstorm Inc
League of Infamy
637
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Posted - 2014.07.19 23:07:00 -
[337] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:I don't understand the confusion, I originally said I don't like the complete irregularity that the Amarr logi sidearm is, because it obfuscates all true comparisons between the logis.
Now, if Caldari logis have a sidearm, and the same number of slots as the Amarr, then there is no singular discrepancy, then there is a reason and we can balance the two combat logis against each other.
TRUE
CCP Rattati wrote:
Just as if we would remove the Amarr sidearm and the CA low, and equalize all the logis at all tiers.
I maintain that the dropsuit is such a fundamental item in the dust balance, that slot layouts should be very consistent, logical and not have inherent discrepancies, because those layouts translate into PG/CPU.
...
The differences should be at the role/racial and module/weapon level and that's where our choices become truly meaningful.
AGREED
CCP Rattati wrote:
In the end, none of these changes are necessary, they have been this way for a long time and maybe they shouldn't be touched. I am sure we can find other things to balance.
Wait! I will beg for this. But first let us discuss it a bit more if you need convincing.
This is a great thing to happen. As mentioned by the Horned Wolf the CA's Module slots may be too much. This may have been the large contributor to the SLAYER LOGI era of the CA Logi with its Shield bonus and monster amount of modules. What slayer wouldn't want 5/4 and all the CPU/PG in the world?. But the bonus was changed, CPU nerfed, and people moved on. But like a cancer maybe we missed something, maybe the root was removed but the contributory activities were not pursued. The CPU nerf didn't come until later. After the suit was still great for the Killer Bees. The CPU hit hurt the suit so much that only a crazy logi would use it... or so we thought.
A Cal Logi staking DMG mods (5possible) would skew the data and influence the change in stacking penalties and maybe even the DMG module nerf. But we solved that right?...
And it is still used! The Rail Rifle is sooo easy to fit the that limited CPU makes little difference to a 5/4 slayer that could stun lock (sorry I know you don't like that term) a player and with DMG mods it was easier than ever.
So, maybe our culprit is the 9 H/L that is throwing it off and not the classic 8 of the other suits.
I'm just saying that maybe this is a better move than we think. Ifi it is the wrong move we would know in a few months or perhaps that is something that the amazing CCP computer and economic personnel can forecast and tell us. OR maybe this is the right decision and balancing should come from standardizing the suits first and follow the data after.
I will try metaphors.
The Rifle:If the barrel of a gun is curved (a result of storing it incorrectly) we can adjust the sights to match and still hit our target, until the gun is bent further. We can continue to adjust our sights and essentially solve the issue that we are dealing with at the time but if we took further action and found out that the fashion in which we where storing the gun was causing the barrel to curve we could solve that issue and future sight adjustments become less needed and ultimately less frequent. - True Story
The Tower - there was once a group of people who decided to build their facility on top of unstable ground. After laying the foundation and building the tower the people were happy. Time passed and the tower began to lean to one side. Fearing its collapse the people spent great fortunes to solidify the tower. Making sure that no brick would fall no column crumble form the shift in the building. Yet the tower leaned further. The happy people erected great machines and lines to pull the tower and stop its continuing but fated decent. Finally, someone decided to see if something could be done about the earth it was standing on rather than just continuing to fix the structure. The earth all around the structure was dug away; concrete poured around the foundation and out beyond the base of the tower; reinforcing and fixing the tower firmly in place. To remind themselves to search for the root of the problem and not just throw money at a falling building they left the Leaning Tower of Pisa, in Italy , still tilting to one side. - True Story
--
It feels great to solve a problems but perhaps we did not deal with the underlying issue.
I am not blaming the Cal-Logi for everything, just showing that its module influence may be playing a larger role than we think and trying to highlight that maybe the problems we need to fix is this one here. Bringing it in line with the other logis fixes a broken suit.
---
POINT:
Matching the slot counts across classes allows their small racial variables like stamina or shield recharge to be further contributors to dropsuit choice rather than, "this has the most modules - its better." IFF they are equalized it is the playstyle desired that is built from the components of race, dropsuits, modules, weapons, and equipment. If there is always a clear winner for any specific role then balance is lost. But if most everything is equal then it is skill, module choice, and chance that make the better players not just FOTM of adjusting a structure. Lets address the foundation.
Will this solve all balance issues? No. Does it help? Yes.
Just because it is not identified as a major contributor to an issue does not make its adjustment any less valid. We can be flawed in our reasoning, research, and analysis. What if this change does create more balance? It will certainly make data analysis of the Logi class easier because the outliers will be removed and stop swaying the data.
All reasons to do this.
The Logi Code. Cross Atu for CPM1 - A logical choice
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SponkSponkSponk
The Southern Legion
Final Resolution.
933
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Posted - 2014.07.19 23:15:00 -
[338] - Quote
+1 for AM and CA logi side arms.
Dust/Eve transfers
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RedPencil
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
58
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Posted - 2014.07.20 07:48:00 -
[339] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:I don't understand the confusion, I originally said I don't like the complete irregularity that the Amarr logi sidearm is, because it obfuscates all true comparisons between the logis.
Now, if Caldari logis have a sidearm, and the same number of slots as the Amarr, then there is no singular discrepancy, then there is a reason and we can balance the two combat logis against each other.
Just as if we would remove the Amarr sidearm and the CA low, and equalize all the logis at all tiers.
I maintain that the dropsuit is such a fundamental item in the dust balance, that slot layouts should be very consistent, logical and not have inherent discrepancies, because those layouts translate into PG/CPU. That's why we are proposing a single matrix of universal dropsuit layouts. And that is also, why the CA ADV scout has 4-1, changing that single one to 3-2 would "break" the whole universal proposal.
The differences should be at the role/racial and module/weapon level and that's where our choices become truly meaningful.
In the end, none of these changes are necessary, they have been this way for a long time and maybe they shouldn't be touched. I am sure we can find other things to balance.
Can you explain logical of pro, adv, and, std Assault slot layout progression?
Why they have 11/9/8 ?
Beware paper cut M[;..;]M
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4579
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Posted - 2014.07.20 10:36:00 -
[340] - Quote
It was like that when I go here .
On all the other comments, I am re-convinced, the matrix will be revisited, maybe with some footnotes that allow for formal exceptions to the rule.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
51
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Posted - 2014.07.20 10:45:00 -
[341] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:It was like that when I go here . On all the other comments, I am re-convinced, the matrix will be revisited, maybe with some footnotes that allow for formal exceptions to the rule.
But it wasn't balance
With the scouts -which have 2 equipment - the logis like Calda or Amarr are a bit disappointed... just 1 equipment more than scouts...
And that's where you come with those changes...
That's the same thing with assault...
Since the first day of Uprising (I take this landmark because it was my beginning in this game) the CALDA assault (PRO) has had 4HSL3LS, and the MINMA (PRO) has had 5H/2LS
That was like this when you arrived in the game, but it wasn't balance...
So, either you want to keep the game like this, but SAY it (don't wait Delta to change it (again)) or balance the game right now
Everything which doesn't kill us, makes us simply more... strange
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IAmDuncanIdaho II
R 0 N 1 N
618
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Posted - 2014.07.20 10:51:00 -
[342] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:It was like that when I go here . On all the other comments, I am re-convinced, the matrix will be revisited, maybe with some footnotes that allow for formal exceptions to the rule.
Awesome! The footnotes can help everyone remember why it is like it is, and record thinking behind how to balance. So many times I've thought wouldn't it be great if we actually knew why something is like it is. That's the vision at a granular level :)
You must learn honor, or you deserve to learn nothing at all.
~ Rivvy Dinari - Swordmaster of Ginaz
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Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
6362
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Posted - 2014.07.20 11:53:00 -
[343] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:The variable slot count per tier for the logis specifically. I don't see a reason why we don't equalize slot count per tier this round. Any objections? :)
Thanks for the detailed feedback, it verifies my thoughts.
I would like to discuss having two passive logis that need to defend their placed equipment, AM and CA and two active logis, MM and GA. I.e. trading the CA low for a sidearm.
My whole problem with this concept is that you assume that those passive logis will defend their placed equipment, instead of using the advantages given to them to abandon the equipment entirely and slay.
If the player dies, the bonus to their equipment is lost - so there certainly is incentive to hang-back behind the frontline if a support Logi wants the best use out of his equipment. They'd have to go and place all the equipment down again or their bonus is entirely arbitrary, but if you consider that, I can understand that a lot of players would just forgo that concern entirely and build their Logi solely for combat with the equipment as an afterthought. A sidearm only supports that ideal. So my questions are:
a) I'd like to know what your plans are to discourage the above behavior, if we are sticking with the two passive logis having sidearms?
b) What are the barriers as to why we can't have their bonus apply after death if they continue to use the same suit?
c) Why is this considered a better alternative than providing Logistics more options to use equipment overall instead of just the one (i.e: cross-racial bonuses)?
Useful Links
Aeon Amadi for CPM1
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4581
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Posted - 2014.07.20 12:08:00 -
[344] - Quote
Assault should be better slayers, that is the only way to motivate people out of slayer logis. amarr slayer logis are not a huge issue right now anyway.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
51
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Posted - 2014.07.20 12:37:00 -
[345] - Quote
I don't understand why you want to remove your "assault slots change"?
With actually PG/CPU you'll give us, we'll be able to fit all our fit, and the gameplay'll be better for assault..
- Minmatar is shield (+ armor)
- Caldari is shield only
- Gallente is armor (+ dmg)
- Amarr is armor only
=> so, why don't do that change ? Why don't you want to put 4/3 for Minma ? 5/2 for Calda ? 2/5 for Amarr ?
It would be the better balancing you can do for different assaults races...
Everything which doesn't kill us, makes us simply more... strange
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11151
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Posted - 2014.07.20 12:43:00 -
[346] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Assault should be better slayers, that is the only way to motivate people out of slayer logis. amarr slayer logis are not a huge issue right now anyway.
By how much though?
How much better do you intend Assaults being?
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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JRleo jr
Xer Cloud Consortium
76
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Posted - 2014.07.20 12:47:00 -
[347] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Assault should be better slayers, that is the only way to motivate people out of slayer logis. amarr slayer logis are not a huge issue right now anyway. By how much though? How much better do you intend Assaults being?
No matter what it won't be op, I mean, we still have the hmg...
Max level brony.
Pink fluffy unicorns
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Best song evar.
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JRleo jr
Xer Cloud Consortium
77
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Posted - 2014.07.20 12:51:00 -
[348] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Assault should be better slayers, that is the only way to motivate people out of slayer logis. amarr slayer logis are not a huge issue right now anyway.
Yes, they should.
But your cpu changes for cal assault...need looking at.
Put a basic cpu mod on the proto cal assault and others, get that cpu and make that number its base cpu...
Max level brony.
Pink fluffy unicorns
http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos
Best song evar.
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Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
52
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Posted - 2014.07.20 12:54:00 -
[349] - Quote
JRleo jr wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Assault should be better slayers, that is the only way to motivate people out of slayer logis. amarr slayer logis are not a huge issue right now anyway. Yes, they should. But your cpu changes for cal assault...need looking at. Put a basic cpu mod on the proto cal assault and others, get that cpu and make that number its base cpu...
Yes, it would be better, but I prefer have my new slots for hotfix charlire, and the new new CPU for hotfix Delta...
Just to know playing the new calda gameplay
Whatever which doesn't kill us, makes us simply more... strange
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Skylight Atoma
The Phoenix Federation
Dark Taboo
11
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Posted - 2014.07.20 13:00:00 -
[350] - Quote
I'm only experienced in a few suits (amarr logi/assault), but I am pretty well versed in PCs so that's mainly where my viewpoint is from.
I am for Amarr and Caldari both having sidearms, and I wouldn't be too upset if they were taken away in the future as long as Logistics and Assaults were more balanced/fixed as a whole at that point. Slot layouts are a good place to start, but it's not the root of the issue.
On how medium suits work in PCs atm:
I like the idea of having a combat focused logi, the problem is that as far as slaying goes heavies were always preferred in higher numbers than assault or slayer logis (logis simply because of their higher slot layout, or the old hacking bonus on minny logi).
When Scouts were introduced it made Assaults/slayer logi obsolete due to their incredible mobility and cloaks, and the assault bonuses/fundamental design aren't keeping pace with scouts. They don't offer anything that another suit can't do a lot better except for maybe dropping nanohives. (I know that's the Cal logi bonus, just saying in general). Assault suits are pretty much in the same realm as logis as far as DPS output goes, it's marginally higher than logi suits but they bring nothing else.
As a logi I am essentially ONLY there for my role bonus and am pigeonholed into fitting a swarm launcher as my light weapon since I can't do any meaningful damage to heavies or any to a scout before I get instagibbed. At least with a flaylock for a sidearm I can sometimes pick off a scout if they are caught off guard, otherwise I'm just repping people/dropping uplinks (which is probly fine since that's the main focus of a logi, my point is I can't do anything BUT logi as far as medium suits go, so now i'm saving up a few more million to be useful in a heavy or scout just to be able to kill things)
On slot layouts:
I can tell you that the Amarr logi NEEDS a pg/cpu buff because armor mods take a lot more fitting than they used to. Even now with core/engineering/electronics 4 I have someting like 7 CPU free on all my fits, and I can't even use all my highs for basic/advanced shield extenders/damage mods since there's no PG left. That's including fitting skills for all weapons I use at 4/5
The Amarr Assault can probably do with a little more PG.
The fitting progression on Caldari scout is frustrating, I can only fit it half decently with Scout lvl 3. At Scout 1/2 I couldn't even fit a full militia/standard tank on it with fitting mods without skipping on an equipment slot and grenade |
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JRleo jr
Xer Cloud Consortium
77
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Posted - 2014.07.20 13:18:00 -
[351] - Quote
Killer's Coys wrote:JRleo jr wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Assault should be better slayers, that is the only way to motivate people out of slayer logis. amarr slayer logis are not a huge issue right now anyway. Yes, they should. But your cpu changes for cal assault...need looking at. Put a basic cpu mod on the proto cal assault and others, get that cpu and make that number its base cpu... Yes, it would be better, but I prefer have my new slots for hotfix charlire, and the new new CPU for hotfix Delta... Just to know playing the new calda gameplay
Or both
But cpu first, as if the slots get changed we can't fit anything.
Max level brony.
Pink fluffy unicorns
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Best song evar.
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Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
53
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Posted - 2014.07.20 13:24:00 -
[352] - Quote
JRleo jr wrote:Killer's Coys wrote:JRleo jr wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Assault should be better slayers, that is the only way to motivate people out of slayer logis. amarr slayer logis are not a huge issue right now anyway. Yes, they should. But your cpu changes for cal assault...need looking at. Put a basic cpu mod on the proto cal assault and others, get that cpu and make that number its base cpu... Yes, it would be better, but I prefer have my new slots for hotfix charlire, and the new new CPU for hotfix Delta... Just to know playing the new calda gameplay Or both But cpu first, as if the slots get changed we can't fit anything.
Yes, the best is the both
But with CCP it's just 1 lol
I've made a lot of dropsuits with just 317CPU (base) and I can fit a lot of thing... ok... it's basic or enhanced mods, but that's better than have just more CPU and cannot use those CPU because you don't have the mods...
Whatever which doesn't kill us, makes us simply more... strange
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Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
6364
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Posted - 2014.07.20 13:58:00 -
[353] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Assault should be better slayers, that is the only way to motivate people out of slayer logis. amarr slayer logis are not a huge issue right now anyway.
Well, that vaguely answers one question.
Sure, Amarr Logis aren't big slayers right now but it's such an isolated case... The Amarr Assault -does- have a really good bonus that pretty much everyone can agree makes it a much better slayer than the Amarr Logi, even with the sidearm.
But consider, if you will, what's going to happen if the Caldari Logistics gets a sidearm when compared to the Caldari Assault. Based on your proposed slot layouts and numbers for Hotfix Charlie, the Cal Logi has one more low and two more equipment slots (proto level) on top of having better CPU/PG.
Assuming all skills level 5 and both fit a (proto) Rail Rifle and Magsec combo, the Assault's bonus saves 30 CPU and 5 PG in cost between the two of them. But on the other hand, the Caldari Logi has 43 CPU and 17 more PG than the Caldari Assault, even with the Hotfix Charlie stats (a 13 CPU/12 PG difference).
So who really saves here? If I make equipment my last priority, the Caldari Logi already has better fitting across the board (more slots, better resources) than the Cal Assault does, even with the Assaults' bonus to weapon fitting.
So the Logi beats the Assault on resources/fitting. What about EHP and Speed?
Assault has 38 more shields and 37 more armor. But hey, Cal Logi got an extra low slot, so no big deal right?
Speed? Talking about a 0.3m/s difference.
Comparing them side by side, I still think that the Caldari Logi is the better slayer here. EDIT: Please, someone sanity check me here if you feel that I'm wrong - maybe I'm not looking at this from the right light.
EDIT: The point that I'm trying to make here is that, yes, Assaults should be better Logis and it's -one way- to make encourage the slayer Logis to use Assaults instead; but the current proposal(s) don't seem quite enough. Personally, I'd prefer to make Logis more supportive instead of just defaulting to giving them more combat options and hoping they use it responsibly.
Useful Links
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11152
|
Posted - 2014.07.20 14:08:00 -
[354] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Assault should be better slayers, that is the only way to motivate people out of slayer logis. amarr slayer logis are not a huge issue right now anyway. Well, that vaguely answers one question. Sure, Amarr Logis aren't big slayers right now but it's such an isolated case... The Amarr Assault -does- have a really good bonus that pretty much everyone can agree makes it a much better slayer than the Amarr Logi, even with the sidearm. But consider, if you will, what's going to happen if the Caldari Logistics gets a sidearm when compared to the Caldari Assault. Based on your proposed slot layouts and numbers for Hotfix Charlie, the Cal Logi has one more low and two more equipment slots (proto level) on top of having better CPU/PG. Assuming all skills level 5 and both fit a (proto) Rail Rifle and Magsec combo, the Assault's bonus saves 30 CPU and 5 PG in cost between the two of them. But on the other hand, the Caldari Logi has 43 CPU and 17 more PG than the Caldari Assault, even with the Hotfix Charlie stats (a 13 CPU/12 PG difference). So who really saves here? If I make equipment my last priority, the Caldari Logi already has better fitting across the board (more slots, better resources) than the Cal Assault does, even with the Assaults' bonus to weapon fitting. So the Logi beats the Assault on resources/fitting. What about EHP and Speed? Assault has 38 more shields and 37 more armor. But hey, Cal Logi got an extra low slot, so no big deal right? Speed? Talking about a 0.3m/s difference. Comparing them side by side, I still think that the Caldari Logi is the better slayer here. EDIT: Please, someone sanity check me here if you feel that I'm wrong - maybe I'm not looking at this from the right light. EDIT: The point that I'm trying to make here is that, yes, Assaults should be better Logis and it's -one way- to make encourage the slayer Logis to use Assaults instead; but the current proposal(s) don't seem quite enough. Personally, I'd prefer to make Logis more supportive instead of just defaulting to giving them more combat options and hoping they use it responsibly.
Nope, you're pretty right.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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JRleo jr
Xer Cloud Consortium
77
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Posted - 2014.07.20 14:21:00 -
[355] - Quote
Killer's Coys wrote:JRleo jr wrote:Killer's Coys wrote:JRleo jr wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Assault should be better slayers, that is the only way to motivate people out of slayer logis. amarr slayer logis are not a huge issue right now anyway. Yes, they should. But your cpu changes for cal assault...need looking at. Put a basic cpu mod on the proto cal assault and others, get that cpu and make that number its base cpu... Yes, it would be better, but I prefer have my new slots for hotfix charlire, and the new new CPU for hotfix Delta... Just to know playing the new calda gameplay Or both But cpu first, as if the slots get changed we can't fit anything. Yes, the best is the both But with CCP it's just 1 lol I've made a lot of dropsuits with just 317CPU (base) and I can fit a lot of thing... ok... it's basic or enhanced mods, but that's better than have just more CPU and cannot use those CPU because you don't have the mods...
Basic and enhanced mods on proto suit...nope needs more buffing.
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Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
53
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Posted - 2014.07.20 14:41:00 -
[356] - Quote
JRleo jr wrote:
Basic and enhanced mods on proto suit...nope needs more buffing.
I agree with you, but I think CCP can't do that for hotfix Charlie... so... 'can wait with 5/2 slots, and 3/1 slots for my Dragonfly assault pleasse
Whatever which doesn't kill us, makes us simply more... strange
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Nirwanda Vaughns
426th Infantry
651
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Posted - 2014.07.20 16:39:00 -
[357] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Assault should be better slayers
the main issue i see with the gallente assault vs gal logi is the armor hp. my gal logi can have 3 complex DM, 730 armor with nearly 10hps regen, 4 equipment (3 of which complex) and a proto firearm and a grendae. even with the fitting bonus the gallente assault is pretty pathetic in comparison.
maybe the hi/lo slot allocation of assaults and logi's should be switched? because the 4 low on gal assault and 5 low on gal logi have always felt wrong since Uprising first came out.
to fix the logi vs assault usage it would also help to drop PG/CPU of logis but raise the equipment bonus to 10% per level so a logi benefits from using equipment and influence them more in their usage.
as for the amarr logi same again. if you're not using a laser based weapon then the logi is a far superior suit with a KK rail fitted. you still get the sidearm as well as 3 equipment slots for all your needs. you can carry a stash of rep hives to heal yourself and supply your own ammo if needed. the Amarr logi is almost a Type II assault suit than a logi.
logis need more persuasion to use equipment instead of use it as a slayer which is why i feel raising equipment bonus to 10% per level and dropping PG/CPU would benefit more than hi/lo slot reallocation and balance.
Rolling with the punches
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Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
6366
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Posted - 2014.07.20 16:56:00 -
[358] - Quote
Nirwanda Vaughns wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Assault should be better slayers the main issue i see with the gallente assault vs gal logi is the armor hp. my gal logi can have 3 complex DM, 730 armor with nearly 10hps regen, 4 equipment (3 of which complex) and a proto firearm and a grendae. even with the fitting bonus the gallente assault is pretty pathetic in comparison. maybe the hi/lo slot allocation of assaults and logi's should be switched? because the 4 low on gal assault and 5 low on gal logi have always felt wrong since Uprising first came out. to fix the logi vs assault usage it would also help to drop PG/CPU of logis but raise the equipment bonus to 10% per level so a logi benefits from using equipment and influence them more in their usage. as for the amarr logi same again. if you're not using a laser based weapon then the logi is a far superior suit with a KK rail fitted. you still get the sidearm as well as 3 equipment slots for all your needs. you can carry a stash of rep hives to heal yourself and supply your own ammo if needed. the Amarr logi is almost a Type II assault suit than a logi. logis need more persuasion to use equipment instead of use it as a slayer which is why i feel raising equipment bonus to 10% per level and dropping PG/CPU would benefit more than hi/lo slot reallocation and balance.
Problem with just switching the slot layouts though is that the Logi's have the higher CPU/PG, so they have an easier time outfitting their suit even with the slots. If you switch them, the Assault has even more slots that they can't fit all the way because they naturally have less resources to do so. The issue comes into play as to what those slots are being used for and, that in mind, I like the idea of reducing CPU/PG on the Log in favor of increasing it's available bonus.
Useful Links
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Varoth Drac
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
180
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Posted - 2014.07.20 17:27:00 -
[359] - Quote
I agree with the proposed logi changes, although I don't play with an Amarr logi and many of them seem to want to keep the suit how it is, which I don't see as a problem.
I do not really have an opinion about the other changes. I don't think they will cause problems except maybe for advanced Caldari scouts, one low slot would encourage too much tanking over EWAR or biotic fitting.
I agree that dual tanking is bad as it reduces fitting variety. There is a problem with a lack of useful high slots but I'm not sure proto Gallente assaults having to fit a shield extender is really too much of a problem. I also think damage mods should be buffed to 3/4/6 or 3/5/7, or their fitting costs reduced. |
Skylight Atoma
The Phoenix Federation
Dark Taboo
11
|
Posted - 2014.07.20 17:27:00 -
[360] - Quote
Logi suits HAVE to have more pg/cpu because equipment fittings are so high and you're fitting more things than an assault. Comparing the spare fitting on racial medium suits really doesn't mean much because of the bonuses on each suit.
You also have to remember that logi suits get no damage bonuses of any sort so it doesn't matter what weapon you throw on there. So what happens is you see logis fitting the cheapest weapon types. Combat Rifles, Swarm Launchers (more expensive but good utility), militia/basic shotguns, and SMGs.
I believe I saw a dev mention they would be in favor of trading a low slot for the sidearm slot, so it's not going to be as OP as you think (it wouldn't even be OP in the grand scheme of DUST how it is currently or when assault gets fixed.)
Slot layouts and fitting resource changes alone are not going to fix assaults, it's not the root of the problem. |
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
242
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Posted - 2014.07.20 17:58:00 -
[361] - Quote
logis wouldn't need more pg/cpu than assaults if the equipment fitting efficiency bonus was as high as the scouts bonus to using the cloak. |
Skylight Atoma
The Phoenix Federation
Dark Taboo
11
|
Posted - 2014.07.20 18:05:00 -
[362] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:logis wouldn't need more pg/cpu than assaults if the equipment fitting efficiency bonus was as high as the scouts bonus to using the cloak.
I agree with you in principle and that's probably a thing that should be done, but if it doesn't ever happen it's not going to break the balance between logi and assault. Not by a long shot unless for some reason the pg/cpu rebalance of assaults is horrendously bad. Then assaults are just still useless and logi isn't any more "OP" |
The Eristic
Dust 90210
576
|
Posted - 2014.07.20 19:23:00 -
[363] - Quote
Killer's Coys wrote:I don't understand why you want to remove your "assault slots change"?
With actually PG/CPU you'll give us, we'll be able to fit all our fit, and the gameplay'll be better for assault..
- Minmatar is shield (+ armor)
- Caldari is shield only
- Gallente is armor (+ dmg)
- Amarr is armor only
=> so, why don't do that change ? Why don't you want to put 4/3 for Minma ? 5/2 for Calda ? 2/5 for Amarr ?
It would be the best balancing you can do for different assaults races...
+ 1000000000
Seriously, the proposed slot changes for the Assaults have been needed since the racial suits first dropped. If the logis need more consideration, we can keep talking and tweak them later, but please, please make the slot changes on the Assaults in Charlie.
Reality is the original Rorschach.
Verily! So much for all that.
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Nirwanda Vaughns
426th Infantry
651
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Posted - 2014.07.20 20:10:00 -
[364] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Nirwanda Vaughns wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Assault should be better slayers the main issue i see with the gallente assault vs gal logi is the armor hp. my gal logi can have 3 complex DM, 730 armor with nearly 10hps regen, 4 equipment (3 of which complex) and a proto firearm and a grendae. even with the fitting bonus the gallente assault is pretty pathetic in comparison. maybe the hi/lo slot allocation of assaults and logi's should be switched? because the 4 low on gal assault and 5 low on gal logi have always felt wrong since Uprising first came out. to fix the logi vs assault usage it would also help to drop PG/CPU of logis but raise the equipment bonus to 10% per level so a logi benefits from using equipment and influence them more in their usage. as for the amarr logi same again. if you're not using a laser based weapon then the logi is a far superior suit with a KK rail fitted. you still get the sidearm as well as 3 equipment slots for all your needs. you can carry a stash of rep hives to heal yourself and supply your own ammo if needed. the Amarr logi is almost a Type II assault suit than a logi. logis need more persuasion to use equipment instead of use it as a slayer which is why i feel raising equipment bonus to 10% per level and dropping PG/CPU would benefit more than hi/lo slot reallocation and balance. Problem with just switching the slot layouts though is that the Logi's have the higher CPU/PG, so they have an easier time outfitting their suit even with the slots. If you switch them, the Assault has even more slots that they can't fit all the way because they naturally have less resources to do so. The issue comes into play as to what those slots are being used for and, that in mind, I like the idea of reducing CPU/PG on the Log in favor of increasing it's available bonus.
yeah obviously raise assault CPU/PG accordingly to adding more slots. i have proto gallente and amarr assault and adv minny and caldari and compared to tank i can get far higher hitpoints on any of my logis than assault and with using better tier wepaonry. maybe throw in a shield or armor fitting reduction in with the racial bonus too so gallente and amarr get 3% per level to armor plate pg/cpu fitting and caldari and minny get 3% per level shield extender pg/cpu reduction on top of the laser heat/rail reload/clip size ect. with the class light weapon fittign bonus that would help assaults out a lot ontop of altering slots
Rolling with the punches
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Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
6367
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Posted - 2014.07.20 20:37:00 -
[365] - Quote
Skylight Atoma wrote:Logi suits HAVE to have more pg/cpu because equipment fittings are so high and you're fitting more things than an assault. Comparing the spare fitting on racial medium suits really doesn't mean much because of the bonuses on each suit.
You also have to remember that logi suits get no damage bonuses of any sort so it doesn't matter what weapon you throw on there. So what happens is you see logis fitting the cheapest weapon types. Combat Rifles, Swarm Launchers (more expensive but good utility), militia/basic shotguns, and SMGs.
I believe I saw a dev mention they would be in favor of trading a low slot for the sidearm slot, so it's not going to be as OP as you think (it wouldn't even be OP in the grand scheme of DUST how it is currently or when assault gets fixed.)
Slot layouts and fitting resource changes alone are not going to fix assaults, it's not the root of the problem.
Quite the contrary, Logistics do -NOT- have to have more PG/CPU... They can have the same amount of PG/CPU as Assaults and just have better reductions from their bonus, if your main concern is the equipment resource costs being high. And yes, I'd argue that the spare room means quite a bit if only because of those bonuses. As I described earlier, the benefits on the weapon fitting for the assault don't stack up to the amount of extra PG/CPU that the logistics already has; you're still coming out on top with the Logistics, bonuses considered.
And uhh.... Assaults don't get damage bonuses either... If you're assuming that the Assaults are getting a damage bonus than you might want to take another look at Assaults . I don't know of any Logistics that use SMGs by default and Combat Rifles aren't preferred just because of their cheap resource costs, they're pretty effective despite that.
Where was it mentioned that they were going to trade a low slot for the sidearm? I was under the impression it was an equipment slot.
Useful Links
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1229
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Posted - 2014.07.20 21:04:00 -
[366] - Quote
As a guy that runs Cal Logi to support a team as opposed to a pure Slayer fit... i'm not in favor of the sidearm for equipment exchange at the moment.
When you tie the primary role bonus to equipment slots then you are giving a secondary nerf to the Amarr and Cal logi players since you are trading in a slot with a bonus for one without. Let me be clear...i like the logi fitting bonus; all I'm saying is that you need to clearly factor in this trade off when looking at base suit stats or racial bonuses.
Frankly...as a logi I value the 4th equipment slot more but I don't necessarily want to run Min Logi.
IF the Amarr and Cal logistics players are considered more of a combat logi then give me fitting bonus to the sidearm as well or perhaps a defensive buff of some sort.
Also...Equipment vs Mods and their slots tags need to be considered. The concern I have when you really start messing around with Highs/Lows with the primary intent to effect tanking you can have significant impact to fitting options for ALL the other modules you might want to experiment with. If you want folks to come up with innovative and creative fits you MUST give a certain amount of flexibility to the players.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
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Varoth Drac
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
182
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Posted - 2014.07.20 21:46:00 -
[367] - Quote
Except everybody is forgetting that CCP is significantly buffing assault suit base hp.
The speed difference between assaults and logis isn't insignificant.
I'm not saying I am in favor of sidearm logis. Just that I don't think they would be better slayers than assaults. Not when assaults will have better speed, weapon bonuses, shield regen and a base hp advantage strong enough to exceed logi's slot advantage. This combined with the proposed CPU/PG bonuses.
I'm my opinion Rattati could have gone about the Charlie assault suit change feedback discussion better. He should have put all the suggested assault suit changes together in one thread with suggested numbers instead of splitting it all up. It has just caused confusion as people complain about slots in the fitting thread, people complain about fitting in the slot thread, and everyone forgets about the hp buff. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
11438
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Posted - 2014.07.20 22:39:00 -
[368] - Quote
CCP Rattati, I am hearing from someone that the proposed assault slot changes are cancelled, is this true? I hope its not.
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
57
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Posted - 2014.07.20 22:43:00 -
[369] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:CCP Rattati, I am hearing from someone that the proposed assault slot changes are cancelled, is this true? I hope its not.
From the topic about the patchnote :
"Hotfix Charlie
slight changes in slot layout "
So...
Since I've seen that, I've tried to speak about that with Rattati (I've asked if it was cancelled) but any answer... If you have more chance than me...
Whatever which doesn't kill us, makes us simply more... strange
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
1167
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Posted - 2014.07.20 23:00:00 -
[370] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:
.
.
We've needed more viable high slots for armor tankers for a long time, that is certainly a problem.
Starting to make me wonder if Kin Cats should, in fact, be a high slot module.... (Caldari) Shield tankers shouldn't really want it and Minnie suits could stack kin cats and shield regs more viably for better speed tanking.
.
.
.
Travesty!
Shield tankers are the ones who especially enjoy Red Cans (kincats)!
Fast hit'n'run tactics or just fast-on-the-skin terror brawlers.
Unless you want to promote dual buffer tanking as the only shield tanker option....?
(excluding regulators)
People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
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Skylight Atoma
The Phoenix Federation
Dark Taboo
11
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Posted - 2014.07.20 23:22:00 -
[371] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:The variable slot count per tier for the logis specifically. I don't see a reason why we don't equalize slot count per tier this round. Any objections? :)
Thanks for the detailed feedback, it verifies my thoughts.
I would like to discuss having two passive logis that need to defend their placed equipment, AM and CA and two active logis, MM and GA. [b]I.e. trading the CA low for a sidearm[/b].
Aeon Amadi wrote:Quite the contrary, Logistics do -NOT- have to have more PG/CPU... They can have the same amount of PG/CPU as Assaults and just have better reductions from their bonus, if your main concern is the equipment resource costs being high. And yes, I'd argue that the spare room means quite a bit if only because of those bonuses. As I described earlier, the benefits on the weapon fitting for the assault don't stack up to the amount of extra PG/CPU that the logistics already has; you're still coming out on top with the Logistics, bonuses considered. And uhh.... Assaults don't get damage bonuses either... If you're assuming that the Assaults are getting a damage bonus than you might want to take another look at Assaults . I don't know of any Logistics that use SMGs by default and Combat Rifles aren't preferred just because of their cheap resource costs, they're pretty effective despite that. Where was it mentioned that they were going to trade a low slot for the sidearm? I was under the impression it was an equipment slot.
Granted Rattati mentioned low -> sidearm as a possibility, so it doesn't have to be an equipment or low slot.
True, logis aren't required by nature to have more pg/cpu, the bonuses can be altered. Currently it's the same bonus amount between logi and assault so yes, the bonus applies to more modules. Still, as it is currently I still have more base fitting on my amarr logi compared to assault and I'm still running short on trying to fit proto fitting optomisation bonused weapons (CR and Flaylock, both are very cheap on fitting), equipment, and armor tank; I can barely fit 2 basic shield extenders.
Also, unless I'm living 5 feet under a rock, SMGs are the king of sidearms atm so it's basically a mini CR. So why not use one as a logi?
Assaults don't get straight up damage bonuses like Commandos do, but they have better potentially applied DPS compared to Commandos. Less heat on lasers = more shots (lvl 4-5 doesn't matter on assault scrams), fast rail reload = less DPS downtime, ect. So theoretically in a longer firefight the assault could do more dps but assaults don't have the survivability of heavys or scouts to use that to their advantage (don't want to math this at all, but it would be a slim margin I think) . |
JRleo jr
Xer Cloud Consortium
80
|
Posted - 2014.07.20 23:44:00 -
[372] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Except everybody is forgetting that CCP is significantly buffing assault suit base hp.
The speed difference between assaults and logis isn't insignificant.
I'm not saying I am in favor of sidearm logis. Just that I don't think they would be better slayers than assaults. Not when assaults will have better speed, weapon bonuses, shield regen and a base hp advantage strong enough to exceed logi's slot advantage. This combined with the proposed CPU/PG bonuses.
I'm my opinion Rattati could have gone about the Charlie assault suit change feedback discussion better. He should have put all the suggested assault suit changes together in one thread with suggested numbers instead of splitting it all up. It has just caused confusion as people complain about slots in the fitting thread, people complain about fitting in the slot thread, and everyone forgets about the hp buff.
What good is that when cal assault won't be able to fit crap without a cpu mod?
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Boot Booter
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
751
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 00:49:00 -
[373] - Quote
Rattati, speaking for just the assaults, the slot layouts look great and make sense. Specifically, please leave the min assault 4/3. The 5/2 layout just doesn't work for the minmatar.
I suggest moving slot progression to 1 per tier for assaults. I think a big reason they are underused (despite being UP), is that the ADV and STD suits are so much weaker than proto. While with other classes they are fairly close in power per tier. A lot of what you've done so far has been to narrow the gap between standard and advanced gear. I don't understand why assaults, and logis for that matter, are different. Plus it must be easier to balance.
What happened to the repair tool glow?
Why won't CCP answer?
Conspiracy?
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Mima Sebiestor
Vengeance Unbound
Dark Taboo
3
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 02:10:00 -
[374] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:
Gallente equal number of highs and lows, preferring lows
While the spreadsheet does not show equality between highs and lows (for Gallente), it still looks great!
Please continue through with these changes into Hotfix Charlie! |
CHANCEtheChAn
0uter.Heaven
574
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Posted - 2014.07.21 02:31:00 -
[375] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:I don't understand the confusion, I originally said I don't like the complete irregularity that the Amarr logi sidearm is, because it obfuscates all true comparisons between the logis.
Now, if Caldari logis have a sidearm, and the same number of slots as the Amarr, then there is no singular discrepancy, then there is a reason and we can balance the two combat logis against each other.
Just as if we would remove the Amarr sidearm and the CA low, and equalize all the logis at all tiers.
I maintain that the dropsuit is such a fundamental item in the dust balance, that slot layouts should be very consistent, logical and not have inherent discrepancies, because those layouts translate into PG/CPU. That's why we are proposing a single matrix of universal dropsuit layouts. And that is also, why the CA ADV scout has 4-1, changing that single one to 3-2 would "break" the whole universal proposal.
The differences should be at the role/racial and module/weapon level and that's where our choices become truly meaningful.
In the end, none of these changes are necessary, they have been this way for a long time and maybe they shouldn't be touched. I am sure we can find other things to balance.
Not saying your wrong
As any OCD person would tell you your right, and nothing in the world would change their minds
But the simple truth is that
Highs aren't just for shields
And lows aren't just for armor
Case in point being that the shield regulator is in the low slots
There are more useable modules in the low slots than there are in the high slots
This isn't an opinion, its fact
As a shield user, my highs are full of the same basic garbage
Shield extender, shield extender, shield this, shield that, maybe a precision or two
My low slots are what make my shield suits unique
Do I want an armor rep?
Or a plate with armor rep?
Or a plate that slows me down with a Kinkat to make me fast?
Or two kincats to be a speedster?
Or a shield reg and a link at?
If you want to balance the slot layouts of dropsuits
The balance of power between the low and high slots needs to be shifted
Otherwise, with having so few low slots, Caldari will ALWAYS be at an disadvantage at both versatility, and also eHP
these new slot loadouts make it so that if your a Caldari scout or assault, you better either be scanning or slaying
Cause otherwise there's no room for you here
Closed Beta Vet/ Chromosome and Corp battle Vet/ Uprising 1.0-Now PC vet
Ex D.F. Director
Current Inner.Hell Director
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
481
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Posted - 2014.07.21 12:39:00 -
[376] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Assault should be better slayers, that is the only way to motivate people out of slayer logis. amarr slayer logis are not a huge issue right now anyway. Well, that vaguely answers one question. Sure, Amarr Logis aren't big slayers right now but it's such an isolated case... The Amarr Assault -does- have a really good bonus that pretty much everyone can agree makes it a much better slayer than the Amarr Logi, even with the sidearm. But consider, if you will, what's going to happen if the Caldari Logistics gets a sidearm when compared to the Caldari Assault. Based on your proposed slot layouts and numbers for Hotfix Charlie, the Cal Logi has one more low and two more equipment slots (proto level) on top of having better CPU/PG. Assuming all skills level 5 and both fit a (proto) Rail Rifle and Magsec combo, the Assault's bonus saves 30 CPU and 5 PG in cost between the two of them. But on the other hand, the Caldari Logi has 43 CPU and 17 more PG than the Caldari Assault, even with the Hotfix Charlie stats (a 13 CPU/12 PG difference). So who really saves here? If I make equipment my last priority, the Caldari Logi already has better fitting across the board (more slots, better resources) than the Cal Assault does, even with the Assaults' bonus to weapon fitting. So the Logi beats the Assault on resources/fitting. What about EHP and Speed? Assault has 38 more shields and 37 more armor. But hey, Cal Logi got an extra low slot, so no big deal right? Speed? Talking about a 0.3m/s difference. Comparing them side by side, I still think that the Caldari Logi is the better slayer here. EDIT: Please, someone sanity check me here if you feel that I'm wrong - maybe I'm not looking at this from the right light. EDIT: The point that I'm trying to make here is that, yes, Assaults should be better than Logis and it's -one way- to make encourage the slayer Logis to use Assaults instead; but the current proposal(s) don't seem quite enough. Personally, I'd prefer to make Logis more supportive instead of just defaulting to giving them more combat options and hoping they use it responsibly.
why is this so hard? nerf logi cpu/pg and give them a corresponding bonus to reduction of equipment fitting costs
or
nerf logi slots and give them a bonus to module efficacy, such as the utility modules.
personally, i think we should kill off the dropsuit tiers like people want. use the basic for general purpose fits by giving them no bonuses, but generous cpu/pg and slots and/or slot layout. these suits would be the base line.
then, if you want a logi suit, you get reduced slots, but increase equipment slots and a bonus to reducing equipment fitting cost as well a boosting efficiency.
want assault? you get less slots, no equipment slot, but higher grenade capacity, increased hp, regen, speed, reduction to weapon fitting costs and defensive modules, boosts to defensive module efficiency.
if theyre caldari suits, give them the exact same slot layout so they cant do silly things like logis getting more hp than assault because they have more high slots than assaults and the hp difference between them is negligible.
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Alldin Kan
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
1139
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Posted - 2014.07.21 15:12:00 -
[377] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Assault should be better slayers, that is the only way to motivate people out of slayer logis. amarr slayer logis are not a huge issue right now anyway.
Instead of listening to most of the players around that really don't have thorough knowledge in dropsuit fittings, you should have lowered the H/L slot count for logi to greatly reduce the EHP potential. The EHP together with several equipment slots is basically why most players go for this suit over Assault, Logistics are supposed to be meant for support with low combat strength as their equipment already boosts the team's strength and survival. I still find it silly how a Logistics ck.0 can perform better than my Officer Assault ck.0.
An excellent way to have buffed Assaults while lowering the lethality of Scouts should have been to switch shield regen rates between the two. I wouldalso suggest to lower shotgun damage by 30% and give a slight range increase but this is something to discuss in a different thread and it's certainly something that will be blindly opposed in huge counts.
Alldin Kan has joined the battle!
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Hakyou Brutor
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
924
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 15:13:00 -
[378] - Quote
Alldin Kan wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Assault should be better slayers, that is the only way to motivate people out of slayer logis. amarr slayer logis are not a huge issue right now anyway. Instead of listening to most of the players around that really don't have thorough knowledge in dropsuit fittings, you should have lowered the H/L slot count for logi to greatly reduce the EHP potential. The EHP together with several equipment slots is basically why most players go for this suit over Assault, Logistics are supposed to be meant for support with low combat strength as their equipment already boosts the team's strength and survival. I still find it silly how a Logistics ck.0 can perform better than my Officer Assault ck.0. An excellent way to have buffed Assaults while lowering the lethality of Scouts should have been to switch shield regen rates between the two. I wouldalso suggest to lower shotgun damage by 30% and give a slight range increase but this is something to discuss in a different thread and it's certainly something that will be blindly opposed in huge counts.
Easy fix: Give logis 20% resistance to every kind of weapon, but 20% less damage output. |
CRNWLLC
Gangsta Gank
370
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 17:00:00 -
[379] - Quote
I have to say, these changes make me mostly quite happy--the only thing I don't like is the possibility of the Amarr logi losing its sidearm, but I do agree there's a good rationale behind such a move. Other than that, though, it's all positive, and I only have a few things I'd like to mention:
1. The CalAss/MinAss slot layout switch is awesome--thanks for listening to the community.
2. The table gave me a "Eureka!" moment: I realized that if Assaults were given 6 module slots at advanced, like logis, it would further differentiate them from scouts, while not detracting from logis. In this way, the Assault/Scout slayer choice is about both speed vs. EHP and equipment versatility vs. extra dropsuit modifications.
3. IMO, it makes more sense for the commando to have extra module slots instead of the sentinel. I don't play heavy, so I might be completely off base (apologies in advance), but the commando definitely seems like it was meant for more versatility, while the sentinel is intended more for outright tanking and holding objective. With an already very high base EHP and the ability to tank to EHP levels just below a LAV's (granted, such fits pretty much have nothing else going for them, but with a Min Logi+proto repper...), it's no wonder why there are so many more sentinels on the battlefield than there are commandos. I think giving commandos the extra module slot might fix this.
Anyway, looks really good. Cheers. |
Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
58
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 17:05:00 -
[380] - Quote
CRNWLLC wrote:I have to say, these changes make me mostly quite happy--the only thing I don't like is the possibility of the Amarr logi losing its sidearm, but I do agree there's a good rationale behind such a move. Other than that, though, it's all positive, and I only have a few things I'd like to mention:
1. The CalAss/MinAss slot layout switch is awesome--thanks for listening to the community.
It looked very fun and cool !
But Rattati want not to do that...
He wants to keep the Amarr's sidearm weapon (I think that's a good thing)...
... but he wants not to swith the Calda/Minma Assault slot... Bad....
PS: If he has changed his patchnot (ans so if I'm wrong) say that me
Silence is the worst answer...Isn't it Rattati?
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Cyrus Grevare
WarRavens
Final Resolution.
248
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Posted - 2014.07.21 20:12:00 -
[381] - Quote
I went ahead and included the slot layout changes to the 'Hotfix Charlie' dropsuits in protofits [Jul/21], these suits also have the proposed changes to PG/CPU.
Regards
www.protofits.com - a Dust 514 fitting tool
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Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
60
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Posted - 2014.07.21 20:15:00 -
[382] - Quote
Cyrus Grevare wrote:I went ahead and included the slot layout changes to the 'Hotfix Charlie' dropsuits in protofits, these suits also have the proposed changes to PG/CPU. Regards
Ok, I've posted a topic on General Discutions lol
I thought Rattati has cancelled the idea about slots changes...
But you did those changes, so...
Did he change his post ?
Silence is the worst answer...Isn't it Rattati?
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Cyrus Grevare
WarRavens
Final Resolution.
249
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 20:52:00 -
[383] - Quote
Seems not update incoming
www.protofits.com - a Dust 514 fitting tool
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4638
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Posted - 2014.07.21 21:10:00 -
[384] - Quote
Everyone, we need a day to work on some updated designs. Stay tuned.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
64
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Posted - 2014.07.22 21:24:00 -
[385] - Quote
Yeah ! Open again !
So, I've opened my eyes to read the news about dropsuit slot layout
Tell us good things Rattati please
Good news are the best answer
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4661
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Posted - 2014.07.22 23:45:00 -
[386] - Quote
And we are back.
TLDR;
Charlie: New slot layout adopted for Sentinels and Assaults, with corresponding PG/CPU adaptations plus PG/CPU buff for Assaults and reduction for Sentinels. Universal slot layout matrix for Caldari changed from 4-1 to 3-2.
Now, based on your consolidated feedback,
The standardized slot layout matrix was pretty well received, yet overall there were the following worries:
1)Caldari Scouts not having 2 low slots at ADV, so couldnGÇÿt effectively dampen like the other three scouts
a.Scouts will be standardized and revised in Delta using the matrix.
b.Therefore, no changes to Scouts in Charlie, but KinCat, CodeBreaker and Nova Knife PG reduced so Minmatar will be able to fit with abandon.
2)Caldari Sentinels not having 2 low slots at PRO, so canGÇÿt fit an armor rep and regulator (for example)
a.Easy fix to this is to change the matrix to 3-2 instead of 4-1 for Caldari 5 slots.
b.Sentinel slots need to be changed in Charlie with corresponding PG/CPU changes.
c.Sentinels then get a fitting bonus to Heavy weapons and a moderate reduction of PG/CPU in Charlie.
3)Logistics, Amarr side arm and Caldari low slot at PRO
a.Our proposal is to give both the sidearm at the cost of a single slot, not two as in the case of the Amarr. The Caldari will trade a low slot for the sidearm and the Amarr will trade an equipment slot for the sidearm. Not until Delta though.
4)Logistics, Gallente and Caldari STD and ADV to have equal total slot count as other Logistics
a. These are scheduled for Delta as well as PG/CPU revisions if necessary.
5)Commandos
a.No changes in Charlie, new layout according to matrix in Delta and corresponding tweaks of PG/CPU.
6)Assault
a.Very few grievances, if at all, with the new the new Assault suit layout, so will be adopted fully in Charlie
b.Assault will move to a 4-6-8 layout of slots, gaining one high/low slot at both ADV and PRO. This standardizes Mediums and gives Assault a huge boost towards being a viable options in competitive surroundings.
c.Assault will also get the same fitting bonus to Grenades.
d.Assault will be getting a considerable buff to PG/CPU, shield tanking will be addressed but we are also looking at bringing energizers and rechargers down and trading for a small PG increase in Delta
e. Assault will gain 150 ehp.
Please give us feedback on this, and this time please stay on topic. Thanks.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Brokerib
Lone Wolves Club
1910
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Posted - 2014.07.22 23:50:00 -
[387] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:And we are back.
TLDR;
Charlie: New slot layout adopted for Sentinels and Assaults, with corresponding PG/CPU adaptations plus PG/CPU buff for Assaults and reduction for Sentinels. Universal slot layout matrix for Caldari changed from 4-1 to 3-2.
Now, based on your consolidated feedback,
The standardized slot layout matrix was pretty well received, yet overall there were the following worries:
1)Caldari Scouts not having 2 low slots at ADV, so couldnGÇÿt effectively dampen like the other three scouts
a.Scouts will be standardized and revised in Delta using the matrix.
b.Therefore, no changes to Scouts in Charlie, but KinCat, CodeBreaker and Nova Knife PG reduced so Minmatar will be able to fit with abandon.
2)Caldari Sentinels not having 2 low slots at PRO, so canGÇÿt fit an armor rep and regulator (for example)
a.Easy fix to this is to change the matrix to 3-2 instead of 4-1 for Caldari 5 slots.
b.Sentinel slots need to be changed in Charlie with corresponding PG/CPU changes.
c.Sentinels then get a fitting bonus to Heavy weapons and a moderate reduction of PG/CPU in Charlie.
3)Logistics, Amarr side arm and Caldari low slot at PRO
a.Our proposal is to give both the sidearm at the cost of a single slot, not two as in the case of the Amarr. The Caldari will trade a low slot for the sidearm and the Amarr will trade an equipment slot for the sidearm. Not until Delta though.
4)Logistics, Gallente and Caldari STD and ADV to have equal total slot count as other Logistics
a. These are scheduled for Delta as well as PG/CPU revisions if necessary.
5)Commandos
a.No changes in Charlie, new layout according to matrix in Delta and corresponding tweaks of PG/CPU.
6)Assault
a.Very few grievances, if at all, with the new the new Assault suit layout, so will be adopted fully in Charlie
b.Assault will move to a 4-6-8 layout of slots, gaining one high/low slot at both ADV and PRO. This standardizes Mediums and gives Assault a huge boost towards being a viable options in competitive surroundings.
c.Assault will also get the same fitting bonus to Grenades.
d.Assault will be getting a considerable buff to PG/CPU, shield tanking will be addressed but we are also looking at bringing energizers and rechargers down and trading for a small PG increase in Delta
e. Assault will gain 150 ehp.
Please give us feedback on this, and this time please stay on topic. Thanks.
Thanks Rattati. Looks very good, only disapointed that some of the changes are being pushed back to Delta.
Knowledge is power
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4661
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Posted - 2014.07.22 23:53:00 -
[388] - Quote
Brokerib wrote:stuff
Thanks Rattati. Looks very good, only disapointed that some of the changes are being pushed back to Delta.
Well, we never intended to change all the layouts in Charlie, we wanted to discuss holistically whether this was the right path, and then take the necessary steps to get there, starting with Assaults and Sentinels.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
64
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Posted - 2014.07.22 23:56:00 -
[389] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:And we are back.
TLDR;
Charlie: New slot layout adopted for Sentinels and Assaults, with corresponding PG/CPU adaptations plus PG/CPU buff for Assaults and reduction for Sentinels. Universal slot layout matrix for Caldari changed from 4-1 to 3-2.
Now, based on your consolidated feedback,
The standardized slot layout matrix was pretty well received, yet overall there were the following worries:
1)Caldari Scouts not having 2 low slots at ADV, so couldnGÇÿt effectively dampen like the other three scouts
a.Scouts will be standardized and revised in Delta using the matrix.
b.Therefore, no changes to Scouts in Charlie, but KinCat, CodeBreaker and Nova Knife PG reduced so Minmatar will be able to fit with abandon.
2)Caldari Sentinels not having 2 low slots at PRO, so canGÇÿt fit an armor rep and regulator (for example)
a.Easy fix to this is to change the matrix to 3-2 instead of 4-1 for Caldari 5 slots.
b.Sentinel slots need to be changed in Charlie with corresponding PG/CPU changes.
c.Sentinels then get a fitting bonus to Heavy weapons and a moderate reduction of PG/CPU in Charlie.
3)Logistics, Amarr side arm and Caldari low slot at PRO
a.Our proposal is to give both the sidearm at the cost of a single slot, not two as in the case of the Amarr. The Caldari will trade a low slot for the sidearm and the Amarr will trade an equipment slot for the sidearm. Not until Delta though.
4)Logistics, Gallente and Caldari STD and ADV to have equal total slot count as other Logistics
a. These are scheduled for Delta as well as PG/CPU revisions if necessary.
5)Commandos
a.No changes in Charlie, new layout according to matrix in Delta and corresponding tweaks of PG/CPU.
6)Assault
a.Very few grievances, if at all, with the new the new Assault suit layout, so will be adopted fully in Charlie
b.Assault will move to a 4-6-8 layout of slots, gaining one high/low slot at both ADV and PRO. This standardizes Mediums and gives Assault a huge boost towards being a viable options in competitive surroundings.
c.Assault will also get the same fitting bonus to Grenades.
d.Assault will be getting a considerable buff to PG/CPU, shield tanking will be addressed but we are also looking at bringing energizers and rechargers down and trading for a small PG increase in Delta
e. Assault will gain 150 ehp.
Please give us feedback on this, and this time please stay on topic. Thanks.
Thanks for those changes.
You have heard the community, thanks for that.
Those changes look very well, I like the +1 slot for assault, and the +150hp.
Good job.
exciting to see hotfix charlie in Tranqulity !
Good news are the best answer
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Brokerib
Lone Wolves Club
1910
|
Posted - 2014.07.22 23:56:00 -
[390] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Brokerib wrote:stuff
Thanks Rattati. Looks very good, only disapointed that some of the changes are being pushed back to Delta. Well, we never intended to change all the layouts in Charlie, we wanted to discuss holistically whether this was the right path, and then take the necessary steps to get there, starting with Assaults and Sentinels.
Understood, and I realise there's only so much you can do at once, but the proposed changes for Delta look good too. Keep up the good work!
Knowledge is power
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Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
6393
|
Posted - 2014.07.22 23:56:00 -
[391] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:And we are back.
TLDR;
Charlie: New slot layout adopted for Sentinels and Assaults, with corresponding PG/CPU adaptations plus PG/CPU buff for Assaults and reduction for Sentinels. Universal slot layout matrix for Caldari changed from 4-1 to 3-2.
Now, based on your consolidated feedback,
The standardized slot layout matrix was pretty well received, yet overall there were the following worries:
1)Caldari Scouts not having 2 low slots at ADV, so couldnGÇÿt effectively dampen like the other three scouts
a.Scouts will be standardized and revised in Delta using the matrix.
b.Therefore, no changes to Scouts in Charlie, but KinCat, CodeBreaker and Nova Knife PG reduced so Minmatar will be able to fit with abandon.
2)Caldari Sentinels not having 2 low slots at PRO, so canGÇÿt fit an armor rep and regulator (for example)
a.Easy fix to this is to change the matrix to 3-2 instead of 4-1 for Caldari 5 slots.
b.Sentinel slots need to be changed in Charlie with corresponding PG/CPU changes.
c.Sentinels then get a fitting bonus to Heavy weapons and a moderate reduction of PG/CPU in Charlie.
3)Logistics, Amarr side arm and Caldari low slot at PRO
a.Our proposal is to give both the sidearm at the cost of a single slot, not two as in the case of the Amarr. The Caldari will trade a low slot for the sidearm and the Amarr will trade an equipment slot for the sidearm. Not until Delta though.
4)Logistics, Gallente and Caldari STD and ADV to have equal total slot count as other Logistics
a. These are scheduled for Delta as well as PG/CPU revisions if necessary.
5)Commandos
a.No changes in Charlie, new layout according to matrix in Delta and corresponding tweaks of PG/CPU.
6)Assault
a.Very few grievances, if at all, with the new the new Assault suit layout, so will be adopted fully in Charlie
b.Assault will move to a 4-6-8 layout of slots, gaining one high/low slot at both ADV and PRO. This standardizes Mediums and gives Assault a huge boost towards being a viable options in competitive surroundings.
c.Assault will also get the same fitting bonus to Grenades.
d.Assault will be getting a considerable buff to PG/CPU, shield tanking will be addressed but we are also looking at bringing energizers and rechargers down and trading for a small PG increase in Delta
e. Assault will gain 150 ehp.
Please give us feedback on this, and this time please stay on topic. Thanks.
I like the changes to Assaults/Sentinels, will hopefully add more variety in the dedicated combat roles in the game.
Love the consideration toward Shield Energizers/Rechargers getting another pass on fitting cost, that will hopefully encourage their use over extenders.
Love the reduction to fitting cost on utility modules and though it was intended for the Minmatar, I have a feeling it will help add diversity all around (assuming that the PG reductions were to the modules and not a bonus to the scout).
I am, however, still adamant in my belief that Logistics need another dedicated pass and have proper bonus application implemented.
Useful Links
Aeon Amadi for CPM1
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Vulpes Dolosus
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
1749
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 00:07:00 -
[392] - Quote
To my fellow Cal scouts:
You're welcome.
Thanks Rattati for listening to our suggestions. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
11443
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 00:22:00 -
[393] - Quote
These changes please me.
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
3163
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Posted - 2014.07.23 00:24:00 -
[394] - Quote
Proposed changes look good.
Assaults will be bad*sses :-)
Shoot scout with yes...
- Ripley Riley
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BlazeXYZ
xCosmic Voidx
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
54
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 00:29:00 -
[395] - Quote
These changes makes my frown upside down
The Blazing Intellect Machine
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JRleo jr
Xer Cloud Consortium
81
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Posted - 2014.07.23 00:35:00 -
[396] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:And we are back.
TLDR;
Charlie: New slot layout adopted for Sentinels and Assaults, with corresponding PG/CPU adaptations plus PG/CPU buff for Assaults and reduction for Sentinels. Universal slot layout matrix for Caldari changed from 4-1 to 3-2.
Now, based on your consolidated feedback,
The standardized slot layout matrix was pretty well received, yet overall there were the following worries:
1)Caldari Scouts not having 2 low slots at ADV, so couldnGÇÿt effectively dampen like the other three scouts
a.Scouts will be standardized and revised in Delta using the matrix.
b.Therefore, no changes to Scouts in Charlie, but KinCat, CodeBreaker and Nova Knife PG reduced so Minmatar will be able to fit with abandon.
2)Caldari Sentinels not having 2 low slots at PRO, so canGÇÿt fit an armor rep and regulator (for example)
a.Easy fix to this is to change the matrix to 3-2 instead of 4-1 for Caldari 5 slots.
b.Sentinel slots need to be changed in Charlie with corresponding PG/CPU changes.
c.Sentinels then get a fitting bonus to Heavy weapons and a moderate reduction of PG/CPU in Charlie.
3)Logistics, Amarr side arm and Caldari low slot at PRO
a.Our proposal is to give both the sidearm at the cost of a single slot, not two as in the case of the Amarr. The Caldari will trade a low slot for the sidearm and the Amarr will trade an equipment slot for the sidearm. Not until Delta though.
4)Logistics, Gallente and Caldari STD and ADV to have equal total slot count as other Logistics
a. These are scheduled for Delta as well as PG/CPU revisions if necessary.
5)Commandos
a.No changes in Charlie, new layout according to matrix in Delta and corresponding tweaks of PG/CPU.
6)Assault
a.Very few grievances, if at all, with the new the new Assault suit layout, so will be adopted fully in Charlie
b.Assault will move to a 4-6-8 layout of slots, gaining one high/low slot at both ADV and PRO. This standardizes Mediums and gives Assault a huge boost towards being a viable options in competitive surroundings.
c.Assault will also get the same fitting bonus to Grenades.
d.Assault will be getting a considerable buff to PG/CPU, shield tanking will be addressed but we are also looking at bringing energizers and rechargers down and trading for a small PG increase in Delta
e. Assault will gain 150 ehp.
Please give us feedback on this, and this time please stay on topic. Thanks.
Did you just reduce caldari sentinel high slot count from 4 at pro to 3? If so, very bad move...
So now my cal heavy will never be used...
Armor sentinels officially op.
My fit now has 700 hp and 50 rep rate at pro, thanks, way to make shield tanking a heavy less viable.
Max level brony.
Pink fluffy unicorns
http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos
Best song evar.
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Alldin Kan
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
1142
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 00:40:00 -
[397] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:2)Caldari Sentinels not having 2 low slots at PRO, so canGÇÿt fit an armor rep and regulator (for example)
a.Easy fix to this is to change the matrix to 3-2 instead of 4-1 for Caldari 5 slots.
b.Sentinel slots need to be changed in Charlie with corresponding PG/CPU changes.
c.Sentinels then get a fitting bonus to Heavy weapons and a moderate reduction of PG/CPU in Charlie.
The other things you mentioned in your post were GREAT but...
A slot layout of 3-2 for Caldari now means that I no longer have any reason to use a Minmatar Sentinel.
Fitting Comparison:
Fitting optimization of HMG/PG reduction of speed mod are excluded.
Heavy Weapon/Sidearm Operation at lv 3.
Lv 4 Dropsuit Core Upgrades-Electronics-Engineering
CPU/PG are in accordance to google doc stats.
Caldari ck.0 (CPU 387/PG 69)
1x Complex Shield Extender
1x Complex Shield Recharger
1x Complex Heavy Damage Mod
1x Complex Kinetic Catalyzer
1x Complex Armor Repairer
Assault Scrambler Pistol
PRO HMG
C-7 flux Grenade
Total CPU used 385/387
Total PG used 63/69
Minmatar mk.0 (CPU 396/PG 65)
Same gear as above but with a KLO-1 Scrambler Pistol
Total CPU used 396/396... could be over by 1 if rounded incorrectly but unlikely.
Total PG used 64/65
What we have here are dropsuits with similar fitting capacities BUT the Caldari ck.0 has higher EHP (around 103 over Min) and better shield regen/recharge delay. The trade off for this is being 5% slower than Minmatar Sentinel and inferior Stamina Count/Regen, both being somewhat meaningless concerns for most battle scenarios... unless the entire enemy team is composed of new players that would require you to keep moving to get kills.
I suggest you keep a layout of 4-1 and try to do something about Minmatar Sentinel as it is currently the most underused heavy. One option to consider would be to switch Shield regen rates between Caldari/Minmatar (all Dropsuit Frames), that way Caldari is focused on HP count but not regen while Minmatar has a focus on regen but lower HP count.
Alldin Kan has joined the battle!
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JRleo jr
Xer Cloud Consortium
81
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Posted - 2014.07.23 00:43:00 -
[398] - Quote
Alldin Kan wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:2)Caldari Sentinels not having 2 low slots at PRO, so canGÇÿt fit an armor rep and regulator (for example)
a.Easy fix to this is to change the matrix to 3-2 instead of 4-1 for Caldari 5 slots.
b.Sentinel slots need to be changed in Charlie with corresponding PG/CPU changes.
c.Sentinels then get a fitting bonus to Heavy weapons and a moderate reduction of PG/CPU in Charlie. The other things you mentioned in your post were GREAT but... A slot layout of 3-2 for Caldari now means that I no longer have any reason to use a Minmatar Sentinel. Fitting Comparison:Fitting optimization of HMG/PG reduction of speed mod are excluded. Heavy Weapon/Sidearm Operation at lv 3. Lv 4 Dropsuit Core Upgrades-Electronics-Engineering CPU/PG are in accordance to google doc stats. Caldari ck.0 (CPU 387/PG 69)1x Complex Shield Extender 1x Complex Shield Recharger 1x Complex Heavy Damage Mod 1x Complex Kinetic Catalyzer 1x Complex Armor Repairer Assault Scrambler Pistol PRO HMG C-7 flux Grenade Total CPU used 385/387 Total PG used 63/69 Minmatar mk.0 (CPU 396/PG 65)
Same gear as above but with a KLO-1 Scrambler Pistol Total CPU used 396/396... could be over by 1 if rounded incorrectly but unlikely. Total PG used 64/65 What we have here are dropsuits with similar fitting capacities BUT the Caldari ck.0 has higher EHP (around 103 over Min) and better shield regen/recharge delay. The trade off for this is being 5% slower than Minmatar Sentinel and inferior Stamina Count/Regen, both being somewhat meaningless concerns for most battle scenarios... unless the entire enemy team is composed of new players that would require you to keep moving to get kills. I suggest you keep a layout of 4-1 and try to do something about Minmatar Sentinel as it is currently the most underused heavy. One option to consider would be to switch Shield regen rates between Caldari/Minmatar (all Dropsuit Frames), that way Caldari is focused on HP count but not regen while Minmatar has a focus on regen but lower HP count.
Exactly
Also it's not fair amar has 1 low slot over gallente but caldari gets a pathetic 3 at PROTO, what the hell could I do with 3 high slots? Low hp for a heavy, low reps because every armor heavy has reps above 50.
Max level brony.
Pink fluffy unicorns
http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos
Best song evar.
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Lynn Beck
Fooly Cooly.
Anime Empire.
2090
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Posted - 2014.07.23 01:11:00 -
[399] - Quote
So if assaults are getting +1 slot, then does Min assault go 5/3 or 4/4?
4/4 would make sense racially, but you just can't armor tank something that terribly weak.
Also, what would be the difference between a Caldari Logi and the Assault?
Callogi would have identical slots, but have a sidearm AND +2 equipments.
General John Ripper
-BAM! I'm Emeril Lagasse.
This message was approved by the 'Nobody Loved You' Foundation
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Brokerib
Lone Wolves Club
1921
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Posted - 2014.07.23 01:37:00 -
[400] - Quote
Lynn Beck wrote:So if assaults are getting +1 slot, then does Min assault go 5/3 or 4/4?
4/4 would make sense racially, but you just can't armor tank something that terribly weak.
Also, what would be the difference between a Caldari Logi and the Assault?
Callogi would have identical slots, but have a sidearm AND +2 equipments.
4/4 is perfect for the Min. Shield extenders and recharge in high, ferro, repper and regulator in low. Plus a kin cat. Zooom!
Knowledge is power
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Alldin Kan
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
1146
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Posted - 2014.07.23 01:39:00 -
[401] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:b.Assault will move to a 4-6-8 layout of slots, gaining one high/low slot at both ADV and PRO. This standardizes Mediums and gives Assault a huge boost towards being a viable options in competitive surroundings.
e. Assault will gain 150 ehp.
I somehow missed this... 
If you do this, it's likely that Assaults will rival Commandos in HP count. What will happen to the slot layout of Gallente/Minmatar? You can't just go for 3H/5L or 5H/3L, the other two races already have that layout and going for 4/4 would be odd as well (though maybe not on MN).
Is anything being done to the Balac's Modified Assault ck.0? Just a little worried it may be forgotten with all the other stuff needing tweaking...
Alldin Kan has joined the battle!
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
245
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Posted - 2014.07.23 01:47:00 -
[402] - Quote
Caldari sentinel should keep 4-1 slot layout at proto to see if shield changes help it's survival. 2 lows would more than likely translates to 2 plates ( unless you want to run around like alldin ). |
John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
League of Infamy
3825
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 02:02:00 -
[403] - Quote
Liking the new changes. A little disappointed I won't be finally getting my extra low slot until delta, but keeping my sidearm (sorry, my OP crutch sidearm ) is well worth the wait. Assault changes will be awesome.
(P.s. I, too, hope the balacs ck.0 will not be ignored, I've been waiting a long time to use mine, lol.)
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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JRleo jr
Xer Cloud Consortium
82
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Posted - 2014.07.23 02:05:00 -
[404] - Quote
Also, 1 more change is needed
Make it so adv cal assault has 4 high slots, I hate it when a tier gets 2 more lows or highs, like the galogi.
Max level brony.
Pink fluffy unicorns
http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos
Best song evar.
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The Eristic
Dust 90210
581
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 02:16:00 -
[405] - Quote
Happy with the Assaults and Sents EXCEPT for Caldari. 3-2 means dual tanking for most players, and means I won't be able to run 3 Ext + Energizer on my Cal char. I neither need nor desire an armor rep on my pure shield tankers. I needs MOAR SHIELDS.
Reality is the original Rorschach.
Verily! So much for all that.
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One Eyed King
Land of the BIind
2902
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 02:32:00 -
[406] - Quote
Looks good to me.
This is how a minja feels
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voidfaction
Void of Faction
343
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 02:52:00 -
[407] - Quote
Still nothing on if moving codebreakers to high slot :-( |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
483
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 03:39:00 -
[408] - Quote
Can't wait to try proto cal assault |
RedBleach LeSanglant
Hellstorm Inc
League of Infamy
642
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 05:33:00 -
[409] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:And we are back.
TLDR;
Charlie: New slot layout adopted for Sentinels and Assaults, with corresponding PG/CPU adaptations plus PG/CPU buff for Assaults and reduction for Sentinels. Universal slot layout matrix for Caldari changed from 4-1 to 3-2.
Now, based on your consolidated feedback,
The standardized slot layout matrix was pretty well received, yet overall there were the following worries:
...
3)Logistics, Amarr side arm and Caldari low slot at PRO
a.Our proposal is to give both the sidearm at the cost of a single slot, not two as in the case of the Amarr. The Caldari will trade a low slot for the sidearm and the Amarr will trade an equipment slot for the sidearm. Not until Delta though.
4)Logistics, Gallente and Caldari STD and ADV to have equal total slot count as other Logistics
a. These are scheduled for Delta as well as PG/CPU revisions if necessary.
3. Solid. Very excited and I can hardly wait for Delta. I may be understanding this incorrectly, but it is an interesting choice to have the Amarr sacrifice and EQ and Caldari sacrifice a low. Working it out I believe the bonuses will still need to be reworked to allow the 4EQ CAL to actually use those slots, but it makes more sense as well. Nanohives burst so quickly even with a bonus that having an extra EQ to stay with the party makes sense. The Amarr with 4EQ would be a sad logi, and its bonus would not work very well for that kind of setup. Sounds great
4. Awesome work! Finally they will have standardized base to operate from. The jump was just so aggravating I couldn't push myself to go that route and suffer for so long to get to the next tier, only to play ADV all the time to be at the STD level of other logis - it was just weird to envision and calculate. This is great for the Logi community. Thank you.
CCP Rattati wrote:6)Assault
a.Very few grievances, if at all, with the new the new Assault suit layout, so will be adopted fully in Charlie
b.Assault will move to a 4-6-8 layout of slots, gaining one high/low slot at both ADV and PRO. This standardizes Mediums and gives Assault a huge boost towards being a viable options in competitive surroundings.
c.Assault will also get the same fitting bonus to Grenades.
d.Assault will be getting a considerable buff to PG/CPU, shield tanking will be addressed but we are also looking at bringing energizers and rechargers down and trading for a small PG increase in Delta
e. Assault will gain 150 ehp.
Please give us feedback on this, and this time please stay on topic. Thanks.
IT almost makes me laugh thinking about an Assault complaining about this shift. Who would complain about getting more slots, more EHP, better bonus, and more PG/CPU? HA! It is just to great - maybe even to OP. But, if this move satisfies the outlined goals for player counts and roles for the CCP Hive Mind then I believe I will be making myself and assault suit too. The bait is set, I can't wait to see how our assaults will test - I can imagine quite a few fittings being dusted off. Well done.
The standardized layouts, general buff, and all the work that has gone into this makes me kinda happy - just seeing it all come together :..| I am always so busy with work I've never had the time to jump in and participate like this and gotta tell you I was kinda hyped up to see some of these changes, be heard, and feel like I was helping. Oh, I'm sure I'll be cursing assaults when they are shooting me in the face, but for now I can be happy for the class - I really hope it becomes the slayers' go to choice for the game.
GOOD JORB CCP.
Long live the MEDium frames and Long live the Empress.
Long life to us all and to the EVE Universe.
The Logi Code. Cross Atu for CPM1 - A logical choice
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11197
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Posted - 2014.07.23 05:46:00 -
[410] - Quote
MY ASSAULT SHALL RISE FROM THE ASHES AND STRIKE DOWN THE FOTM SCRUBS!
MWUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
483
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Posted - 2014.07.23 06:07:00 -
[411] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:MY ASSAULT SHALL RISE FROM THE ASHES AND STRIKE DOWN THE FOTM SCRUBS!
MWUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Which assault are you looking at? |
Varoth Drac
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
183
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Posted - 2014.07.23 06:45:00 -
[412] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:MY ASSAULT SHALL RISE FROM THE ASHES AND STRIKE DOWN THE FOTM SCRUBS!
MWUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I hope you are aware that assaults will be the FOTM. |
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11198
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 07:32:00 -
[413] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:Cat Merc wrote:MY ASSAULT SHALL RISE FROM THE ASHES AND STRIKE DOWN THE FOTM SCRUBS!
MWUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Which assault are you looking at?
Gallente and Minmatar Assault, that's the two I have.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4676
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Posted - 2014.07.23 09:17:00 -
[414] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:Caldari sentinel should keep 4-1 slot layout at proto to see if shield changes help it's survival. 2 lows would more than likely translates to 2 plates ( unless you want to run around like alldin ).
Having no armor reps was the inherent worry, so regulator and repper capability were widely requested. Having only one low makes you choose, and in many cases the rep would be preferred, making the shield tank less viable.
Just my thoughts, am I way off?
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Francois Sanchez
What The French
Red Whines.
39
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Posted - 2014.07.23 09:34:00 -
[415] - Quote
Personally I would prefer high slots and a regulator. There should be logis to rep you most of the time |
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4676
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Posted - 2014.07.23 09:36:00 -
[416] - Quote
Francois Sanchez wrote:Personally I would prefer high slots and a regulator. There should be logis to rep you most of the time
We can't really design around having logis around...
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Francois Sanchez
What The French
Red Whines.
39
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Posted - 2014.07.23 09:46:00 -
[417] - Quote
Sure, but even without a logi I prefer 4 high slots and 1 repper, the shield recharge delay is super low anyway |
FabryX10
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
116
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 09:46:00 -
[418] - Quote
@Rattati: I like new assault layouts instead of previous proposal. Just one thing... I think that logis should not have sidearm. Remove sidearm and add 1 equip to caldari and amarr logis.
@CCP Rattati: How to fix Assault's shields
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Francois Sanchez
What The French
Red Whines.
39
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Posted - 2014.07.23 09:49:00 -
[419] - Quote
And looking at the assault buff, I'm now a bit worried about commandos. With 8 slots and 150 extra EHP, assaults can easily become harder to kill than commandos while taking 2 damage mods to compensate commandos natural bonus. |
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4677
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Posted - 2014.07.23 09:50:00 -
[420] - Quote
FabryX10 wrote:@Rattati: I like new assault layouts instead of previous proposal. Just one thing... I think that logis should not have sidearm. Remove sidearm and add 1 equip to caldari and amarr logis.
You will find that highly contested. We are hoping the combat logi designs and choice will tell us something about such player demand and desires. With assaults being buffed, there should be no worry about another dawn of the slayer logis.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Stefan Stahl
Seituoda Taskforce Command
701
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Posted - 2014.07.23 09:52:00 -
[421] - Quote
I'm not home so here's the short version of my feedback:
1. Assault quadruple-buff?
2. Increased gap between pro and std assault?
3. More low slots for CalSent?
I stand to gain from all of these changes, but I don't want to. The game would be worse for it. |
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4677
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 09:54:00 -
[422] - Quote
Francois Sanchez wrote:And looking at the assault buff, I'm now a bit worried about commandos. With 8 slots and 150 extra EHP, assaults can easily become harder to kill than commandos while taking 2 damage mods to compensate commandos natural bonus.
I am hoping Cyrus and protofits can help the community again, so you can theorycraft properly.
We will have a final review before we push the button.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
67
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Posted - 2014.07.23 09:54:00 -
[423] - Quote
Francois Sanchez wrote:And looking at the assault buff, I'm now a bit worried about commandos. With 8 slots and 150 extra EHP, assaults can easily become harder to kill than commandos while taking 2 damage mods to compensate commandos natural bonus.
But Commando still has his bonus, so a commando is a commando
Assault must be good slayer, but he also must be polyvalent, with those slots, you'll be able to fit (for example) stamina, repair, regulator, energizer and keep a lot of HP
Don't worry for your Commando, he'll still stay the best slayer, just assault really needed this buff
Ho yeah Love you Rattati!
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Francois Sanchez
What The French
Red Whines.
39
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Posted - 2014.07.23 10:23:00 -
[424] - Quote
Here is what I get with caldari assault and commando (buffing the HP as much as possible while keeping one complex armour repairer for the commando) :
The commando
http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/903/3167
The assault
http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/903/5674
Now add 150 eHP to the assault and one complex armour plate, the assault has the same damage output, slightly more eHP, the same reload speed, better shield recharge delay and rate, better scan profile and precision, a better stamina and is faster than the commando. |
Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
67
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 10:45:00 -
[425] - Quote
Francois Sanchez wrote:Here is what I get with caldari assault and commando (buffing the HP as much as possible while keeping one complex armour repairer for the commando) : The commando http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/903/3167The assault http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/903/5674Now add 150 eHP to the assault and one complex armour plate, the assault has the same damage output, slightly more eHP, the same reload speed, better shield recharge delay and rate, better scan profile and precision, a better stamina and is faster than the commando.
... And that's why we call them "Assault"
Don't forget, assault only has 1 light weapon, the fit is more expensive
The fit commando : you can fit others things, you have many PG which are free
For the assault one, that's just enought
And don't play assault with armor plate and armor repair please
The dmg mod aren't +10% together, the first makes +5%, the second +3.8% (for example)
AND PS : Caldari assault'll have 3 low slots with 5 hight, ytes I now, that's cool, I'm very excited
PS2: all assault aren't like this one
Ho yeah Love you Rattati!
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Kwartoo
Prima Gallicus
3
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Posted - 2014.07.23 11:04:00 -
[426] - Quote
Caldari's logi don't need & don't want a 2nd weapon. this is absolutely boring & stupid |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
483
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 11:20:00 -
[427] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Doc DDD wrote:Caldari sentinel should keep 4-1 slot layout at proto to see if shield changes help it's survival. 2 lows would more than likely translates to 2 plates ( unless you want to run around like alldin ). Having no armor reps was the inherent worry, so regulator and repper capability were widely requested. Having only one low makes you choose, and in many cases the rep would be preferred, making the shield tank less viable. Just my thoughts, am I way off?
do they have enough cpu to run dual complex regulators, and complex shield mods? it might make a nice light weapon wielding heavy assault suit... |
MEDICO RITARDATO
Intara Direct Action
Caldari State
125
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Posted - 2014.07.23 11:22:00 -
[428] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:And we are back.
TLDR;
Charlie: New slot layout adopted for Sentinels and Assaults, with corresponding PG/CPU adaptations plus PG/CPU buff for Assaults and reduction for Sentinels. Universal slot layout matrix for Caldari changed from 4-1 to 3-2.
Now, based on your consolidated feedback,
The standardized slot layout matrix was pretty well received, yet overall there were the following worries:
1)Caldari Scouts not having 2 low slots at ADV, so couldnGÇÿt effectively dampen like the other three scouts
a.Scouts will be standardized and revised in Delta using the matrix.
b.Therefore, no changes to Scouts in Charlie, but KinCat, CodeBreaker and Nova Knife PG reduced so Minmatar will be able to fit with abandon.
2)Caldari Sentinels not having 2 low slots at PRO, so canGÇÿt fit an armor rep and regulator (for example)
a.Easy fix to this is to change the matrix to 3-2 instead of 4-1 for Caldari 5 slots.
b.Sentinel slots need to be changed in Charlie with corresponding PG/CPU changes.
c.Sentinels then get a fitting bonus to Heavy weapons and a moderate reduction of PG/CPU in Charlie.
3)Logistics, Amarr side arm and Caldari low slot at PRO
a.Our proposal is to give both the sidearm at the cost of a single slot, not two as in the case of the Amarr. The Caldari will trade a low slot for the sidearm and the Amarr will trade an equipment slot for the sidearm. Not until Delta though.
4)Logistics, Gallente and Caldari STD and ADV to have equal total slot count as other Logistics
a. These are scheduled for Delta as well as PG/CPU revisions if necessary.
5)Commandos
a.No changes in Charlie, new layout according to matrix in Delta and corresponding tweaks of PG/CPU.
6)Assault
a.Very few grievances, if at all, with the new the new Assault suit layout, so will be adopted fully in Charlie
b.Assault will move to a 4-6-8 layout of slots, gaining one high/low slot at both ADV and PRO. This standardizes Mediums and gives Assault a huge boost towards being a viable options in competitive surroundings.
c.Assault will also get the same fitting bonus to Grenades.
d.Assault will be getting a considerable buff to PG/CPU, shield tanking will be addressed but we are also looking at bringing energizers and rechargers down and trading for a small PG increase in Delta
e. Assault will gain 150 ehp.
Please give us feedback on this, and this time please stay on topic. Thanks.
Dont need the a sidearm on my callogi, pls dont remove the 4 low slot.
If the age is on the clock you are ready for the c**k
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FabryX10
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
116
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 11:39:00 -
[429] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:FabryX10 wrote:@Rattati: I like new assault layouts instead of previous proposal. Just one thing... I think that logis should not have sidearm. Remove sidearm and add 1 equip to caldari and amarr logis. You will find that highly contested. We are hoping the combat logi designs and choice will tell us something about such player demand and desires. With assaults being buffed, there should be no worry about another dawn of the slayer logis.
Slayer logis are not the point of my previous message but I think that logis have to support squad with equip not using a sidearm.
@CCP Rattati: How to fix Assault's shields
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
11445
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Posted - 2014.07.23 11:42:00 -
[430] - Quote
I don't think assaults should get an 8th slot, given they're getting a +150 HP buff. Keep the HP buff, but do not add the new module slot at proto. Keep the advanced tier slot though, closing the gap between proto and lower tier is a good thing; would really like to see an extra module slot at standard as well. 5/6/7 slot progression please.
Tried this Amarr assault fit on protofits (link here http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/759/5678 ). I added 150 to the armor, and factored the skills.
Shields: 120 x 1.25 (shield skill bonus) = 150
Armor: 240 + 150 = 390 x 1.25 (armor skill bonus) = 487.5
Total eHP with skills before mods: 637.5
Obviously these calculations may not be correct because I don't know how the +150 HP will be distributed between shields and armor.
Now add some plates. For the sake of being conservative with HP estimates, lets only use ferroscales. 4 complex ferroscales and 1 armor repairer. Complex ferroscales are 75, and with skills they are each 82.5. 82.5 x 4 is 330, add that to our previous total, and now the eHP is 967.5; this is a conservative estimate using low HP plates (ferroscales), and already its clear that the assault will be more like a heavy.
A simpler way to illustrate the point: without the +150 HP, the fit I linked would have 780 eHP, now just add 150 HP, and now you have 930 eHP. Whatever methodology you use to calculate it, its too much. Once again I remind that this is just a conservative estimate, and regular plates would lead to even higher eHP numbers.
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
68
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Posted - 2014.07.23 11:48:00 -
[431] - Quote
For me the extra slot isn't necessary, the +150HP is enought. Keep the "considerable PG/CPU bff" for assault, and delete this extra slot and it's ok, we could have more PG/CPUP to fit better mods, but the extra mod could send the assault a bit OP I think
I love this idea to have an extra slot, but it could become a bit ....
Ho yeah Love you Rattati!
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4681
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 12:14:00 -
[432] - Quote
We would rather cut the ehp buff than the additional slots, we feel it underlines the versatility aspect of the assault, spec for the situation.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Francois Sanchez
What The French
Red Whines.
41
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Posted - 2014.07.23 12:14:00 -
[433] - Quote
Killer's Coys wrote:Francois Sanchez wrote:Here is what I get with caldari assault and commando (buffing the HP as much as possible while keeping one complex armour repairer for the commando) : The commando http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/903/3167The assault http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/903/5674Now add 150 eHP to the assault and one complex armour plate, the assault has the same damage output, slightly more eHP, the same reload speed, better shield recharge delay and rate, better scan profile and precision, a better stamina and is faster than the commando. ... And that's why we call them "Assault" Don't forget, assault only has 1 light weapon, the fit is more expensive The fit commando : you can fit others things, you have many PG which are free For the assault one, that's just enought And don't play assault with armor plate and armor repair please The dmg mod aren't +10% together, the first makes +5%, the second +3.8% (for example) AND PS : Caldari assault'll have 3 low slots with 5 hight, ytes I now, that's cool, I'm very excited PS2: all assault aren't like this one EDIT : PS3: the idea is assault and commando are almost the same, isn't it ? Commando is a support class Assault is an assault class So, assault must have many HP, stamina, speed and regen (I speak for the Calda) Commando must make damage, so you can get 1-2 damager on your fit, and have enought HP to survive... and stay behind assault, to help them. I don't understand why people think commando is to make assault's job... That's a Caldari assault suit : http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/84/5676Add an enhanced cardiac regulator and it's ok => The assault has 40HP/s shield regen, a good stamina and stamina regen, the Assault RR, and an enhanced damager For the Commando : http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/84/5677=> You have 855HP life.... => you have 35HP/s shield regen => you have 6HP/s armor repair => you have 2 proto weapon : Kaalakiota RR and Assault Ishukone RR => K-2 nanohive => enhanced damager That's what must have a commando ck.0 Why ? - with the 2 RR, you can kill people from far - you can be independent (armor repairer, nanohive) - you can get 35hp/s shield regen So, I don't know what's the problem, if you fit correctly and you play good your class, there aren't any problem...
I don't say that's the way I want to fit those two classes, it was just an example to show that the assault can beat the commando at nearly everything. In my example, the only advantage the commando has is the two light weapons, which isn't much better than the light+sidearm+grenades of the assault. About the damage mods, you don't add them, but multiply them so in the example I gave, the assault has a DPS of 491 and the commando 493, so the same.
I also think that commandos are supposed to get max damage (my minmatar commando has only damage mods on the left), but in that case, they're much more fragile than assaults who are medium suits, and that's what shocks me as the commando is still a heavy.
Your fits really give different roles to the commando and to the assault because it's the way Caldari are supposed to be played, but if you take Amarr suits, it's completely different as both will rely on a high armour. In this case, the commando is beaten everywhere because the assault can get nearly the same damage with his 3 high slots and he has the nice overheat bonus which is much more useful than reload speed for laser weaponry. Here you can do whatever you want with the commando, the assault can do the same or even better |
Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
68
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 12:33:00 -
[434] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:We would rather cut the ehp buff than the additional slots, we feel it underlines the versatility aspect of the assault, spec for the situation.
The best way is just a buff 100HP
You'll give an extra slot for ADV and PRO, but the STA will not receive an extra slot,
I think you must give the HP buff (f. ex. for them (STA)) but not a big buff like 150HP, for example 100/120HP I think it would be good
(but yes, make the HP buff, really, it can improve the assault situation, because off scouts-tanked-armor or shield)
I've thought about the assault buff, and, finally, I think it would be OP. Just don't give so much PG/CPU
Now you have add an extra slot, I think a good think would be :
- +150HP (shield or armor)
- bonus on grenade (5% per level)
- add an extra slot for ADV and PRO
- buff a bit the PG/CPU with this example :
Caldari : +10%CPU +5%PG
Gallente : +7%CPU +8%PG
Minmatar : +8%CPU +7%PG
Amarr : +5%CPU + 10%PG
=>> if some people wanted to get an OP assault suit, they should fit a PG/CPU mod because the buff would be good, but not considerable
Ho yeah Love you Rattati!
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Stefan Stahl
Seituoda Taskforce Command
704
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 12:35:00 -
[435] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:We would rather cut the ehp buff than the additional slots, we feel it underlines the versatility aspect of the assault, spec for the situation. Then go with a 5-6-7 progression and safe the hp-buff for the patch after.
Don't make the NPE worse by increasing the gap between STD and PRO. We need the guys in STD assault suits to enjoy the game. The guys in PRO will disagree, but then they'll quit the game anyway when they run out of new players to grind kdr on. |
Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
68
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 12:38:00 -
[436] - Quote
Francois Sanchez wrote:
I don't say that's the way I want to fit those two classes, it was just an example to show that the assault can beat the commando at nearly everything. In my example, the only advantage the commando has is the two light weapons, which isn't much better than the light+sidearm+grenades of the assault. About the damage mods, you don't add them, but multiply them so in the example I gave, the assault has a DPS of 491 and the commando 493, so the same.
I also think that commandos are supposed to get max damage (my minmatar commando has only damage mods on the left), but in that case, they're much more fragile than assaults who are medium suits, and that's what shocks me as the commando is still a heavy.
Your fits really give different roles to the commando and to the assault because it's the way Caldari are supposed to be played, but if you take Amarr suits, it's completely different as both will rely on a high armour. In this case, the commando is beaten everywhere because the assault can get nearly the same damage with his 3 high slots and he has the nice overheat bonus which is much more useful than reload speed for laser weaponry. Here you can do whatever you want with the commando, the assault can do the same or even better
For me the Commando is good now, and will stay good.
I think you don't play with an assault suit
I do, and I can say you Assault must have those buff
Ho yeah Love you Rattati!
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idlerowl
Old-Type
3
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 12:48:00 -
[437] - Quote
I think it's very good change.
It's worrisome, the increase in movement speed |
Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
6672
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 12:57:00 -
[438] - Quote
150 might be too much but 100 just to an assault suits main defence might be fine.
see you space cowboy...
|
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
3171
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 12:58:00 -
[439] - Quote
Alldin Kan wrote:... if you were to simply lower shotgun damage and HMG rof, the two are usually the reason why Assaults need a buff.
On average, it takes 4 blasts at 4m to a drop a GalSentinel.
1. How long do you think that takes?
2. How much longer do you think it should take?
3. Are you aware that the CR does the job quicker?
Fine Rifles drop high HP targets just as fast a shotgun, but at over 10x its optimal range of 4.9m. If you were interested in balance, you'd cite this fact when asking for a shotgun buff. If you're not interested in balance, then get off the lawn.
Shoot scout with yes...
- Ripley Riley
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11200
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 13:01:00 -
[440] - Quote
I recommend to first use 150HP and then tweak from there.
It's better to get people into assaults first and then nerf slightly, like CCP did with scouts.
That way the influx of people using the Assault would be greater, and would create more data to analyze.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11200
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 13:05:00 -
[441] - Quote
Also, since the hotfixes are rapid, it will stay that way for a lot less time.
So CCP can afford to release something slightly OP or UP.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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jimmybroon brown
30
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 13:10:00 -
[442] - Quote
Killer's Coys wrote:For me the extra slot isn't necessary, the +150HP is enought. Keep the "considerable PG/CPU bff" for assault, and delete this extra slot and it's ok, we could have more PG/CPUP to fit better mods, but the extra mod could send the assault a bit OP I think
I love this idea to have an extra slot, but it could become a bit ....
Assaults need both just now. Would of been nice to see new racial bonus like gallante with increased rate of fire for example.
Or something new added because lets admitt scout's are everywhere fotm and needs changing Asap, dont think these changes that are announced will change that. |
Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
69
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 13:18:00 -
[443] - Quote
jimmybroon brown wrote:Killer's Coys wrote:For me the extra slot isn't necessary, the +150HP is enought. Keep the "considerable PG/CPU bff" for assault, and delete this extra slot and it's ok, we could have more PG/CPUP to fit better mods, but the extra mod could send the assault a bit OP I think
I love this idea to have an extra slot, but it could become a bit .... Assaults need both just now. Would of been nice to see new racial bonus like gallante with increased rate of fire for example. Or something new added because lets admitt scout's are everywhere fotm and needs changing Asap, dont think these changes that are announced will change that.
Rate of fire for gallente would be OP, mainly if it's the only assault which has a bonus on rate of fire...
But yes, I think the eHP buff is the BEST thing to stop assault-scout
Why ?
F. ex : a caldari scout which want to have the hightest HP shield, must have 4 shield extenders
to have : +/- 453 hp shield
If CCP gives the +150eHP buff, a caldassault (with the passive) can have, without mods, 450 shield.
Between a scout PRO (+/- 130k ISK) or a STA assaut (+/-10k/17k ISK) which have the same eHP shield, I'ld prefer the assault
Ho yeah Love you Rattati!
|
xAckie
Ghost. Mob
440
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 13:25:00 -
[444] - Quote
Killer's Coys wrote:jimmybroon brown wrote:Killer's Coys wrote:For me the extra slot isn't necessary, the +150HP is enought. Keep the "considerable PG/CPU bff" for assault, and delete this extra slot and it's ok, we could have more PG/CPUP to fit better mods, but the extra mod could send the assault a bit OP I think
I love this idea to have an extra slot, but it could become a bit .... Assaults need both just now. Would of been nice to see new racial bonus like gallante with increased rate of fire for example. Or something new added because lets admitt scout's are everywhere fotm and needs changing Asap, dont think these changes that are announced will change that. Rate of fire for gallente would be OP, mainly if it's the only assault which has a bonus on rate of fire... But yes, I think the eHP buff is the BEST thing to stop assault-scout Why ? F. ex : a caldari scout which want to have the hightest HP shield, must have 4 shield extenders to have : +/- 453 hp shield If CCP gives the +150eHP buff, a caldassault (with the passive) can have, without mods, 450 shield. Between a scout PRO (+/- 130k ISK) or a STA assaut (+/-10k/17k ISK) which have the same eHP shield, I'ld prefer the assault
would rather know where you are on the field than have the 150EHP.
A scout will still be able to see you, and at range. You wont. A big benefit in an FPS
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Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
69
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 13:38:00 -
[445] - Quote
xAckie wrote:
would rather know where you are on the field than have the 150EHP.
A scout will still be able to see you, and at range. You wont. A big benefit in an FPS
That's why we must have this buff, with it, we can have an advantage against the scouts, and we could fit other mods than extenders, so it will be interesting and important for assault
Ho yeah Love you Rattati!
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
6673
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 13:46:00 -
[446] - Quote
What about having Amarr and Caldari get only the HP buff for their main defence of around the same HP values, say 120 for Caldari, 150 for Amarr.
Then with Minmatar and Gallente they get the Slot additions to support the Gallente and Minmatar's active tanking playstyle.
TL;DR:
-More PG/CPU for all assault suits.
-Amarr and Caldari - More Defence only
-Minmatar and Gallente - More Slots only
see you space cowboy...
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JRleo jr
Xer Cloud Consortium
84
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 13:49:00 -
[447] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Doc DDD wrote:Caldari sentinel should keep 4-1 slot layout at proto to see if shield changes help it's survival. 2 lows would more than likely translates to 2 plates ( unless you want to run around like alldin ). Having no armor reps was the inherent worry, so regulator and repper capability were widely requested. Having only one low makes you choose, and in many cases the rep would be preferred, making the shield tank less viable. Just my thoughts, am I way off?
Yes
If it's shield tanked it shouldn't need an armor rep, and don't remove a high slot, that just makes its shield tanking crappier, my new fitting will be a plate and a rep because 3 high slots is pitiful and why waste on shield regs if I only have 3 high slots at proto?
Max level brony.
Pink fluffy unicorns
http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos
Best song evar.
|
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4684
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 13:56:00 -
[448] - Quote
Here are new proposals for PG/CPU numbers that take into account revised slot layouts for Assaults and Sentinels.
These are quite extensively tested and should allow, with all skills maxed to fit quite well.
But nothing is better than players proving you wrong, so take a look and comment.
Feedback that was taken into account that
1) Amarr had been given a similar boost, while they always had more PG/CPU but fewer slots. With the extra slot, such a discrepancy should not continue.
2) Caldari simply should not be forced to take a CPU mod, unless doing absolutely crazy things CPU wise. Caldari should now be able to fit competitively.
3) Even after the first proposed numbers, the consistent feedback was, Sentinels can still fit anything and still have space. We took another deep look and tweaked. Caldari Sentinels and Minmatar should also be more viable compared to their sentinel brethren now.
New PG/CPU Assaults and Sentinels
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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JRleo jr
Xer Cloud Consortium
84
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 14:02:00 -
[449] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Here are new proposals for PG/CPU numbers that take into account revised slot layouts for Assaults and Sentinels. These are quite extensively tested and should allow, with all skills maxed to fit quite well. But nothing is better than players proving you wrong, so take a look and comment. Feedback that was taken into account that 1) Amarr had been given a similar boost, while they always had more PG/CPU but fewer slots. With the extra slot, such a discrepancy should not continue. 2) Caldari simply should not be forced to take a CPU mod, unless doing absolutely crazy things CPU wise. Caldari should now be able to fit competitively. 3) Even after the first proposed numbers, the consistent feedback was, Sentinels can still fit anything and still have space. We took another deep look and tweaked. Caldari Sentinels and Minmatar should also be more viable compared to their sentinel brethren now. New PG/CPU Assaults and Sentinels
Perfect, absolutely perfect.
Enough cpu, and 3 low slots so I can fit 3 shield regs on my caldari assault.
1 small change is needed
Make caldari sentinel high slot 4 at proto so I can properly shield tank, remove a grenade if you have to, as I would fit 2 shield regs if I had 4 highs, plus it isn't right a primary shield tank suit to have 3 highs at pro, minmatar also have the same slots, amarr is primarily armor tank it has 4 lows, why can't caldari have 4 highs?
Max level brony.
Pink fluffy unicorns
http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos
Best song evar.
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The dark cloud
The Rainbow Effect
3675
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 14:08:00 -
[450] - Quote
Thank you for nerfbatting all sentinels equally. |
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Alldin Kan
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
1148
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 14:14:00 -
[451] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Here are new proposals for PG/CPU numbers that take into account revised slot layouts for Assaults and Sentinels. These are quite extensively tested and should allow, with all skills maxed to fit quite well. But nothing is better than players proving you wrong, so take a look and comment. Feedback that was taken into account that 1) Amarr had been given a similar boost, while they always had more PG/CPU but fewer slots. With the extra slot, such a discrepancy should not continue. 2) Caldari simply should not be forced to take a CPU mod, unless doing absolutely crazy things CPU wise. Caldari should now be able to fit competitively. 3) Even after the first proposed numbers, the consistent feedback was, Sentinels can still fit anything and still have space. We took another deep look and tweaked. Caldari Sentinels and Minmatar should also be more viable compared to their sentinel brethren now. New PG/CPU Assaults and Sentinels
Are you sure about giving Assault suits similar EHP potential of Commandos? You may have to buff racial bonus from +2% per level to +3%.
Alldin Kan has joined the battle!
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4684
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 14:18:00 -
[452] - Quote
Buffing ehp will be the final decision, but if new slot theory crafting suggests it will be too much, then we can happily reconsider.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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JRleo jr
Xer Cloud Consortium
85
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Posted - 2014.07.23 14:20:00 -
[453] - Quote
Alldin Kan wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Here are new proposals for PG/CPU numbers that take into account revised slot layouts for Assaults and Sentinels. These are quite extensively tested and should allow, with all skills maxed to fit quite well. But nothing is better than players proving you wrong, so take a look and comment. Feedback that was taken into account that 1) Amarr had been given a similar boost, while they always had more PG/CPU but fewer slots. With the extra slot, such a discrepancy should not continue. 2) Caldari simply should not be forced to take a CPU mod, unless doing absolutely crazy things CPU wise. Caldari should now be able to fit competitively. 3) Even after the first proposed numbers, the consistent feedback was, Sentinels can still fit anything and still have space. We took another deep look and tweaked. Caldari Sentinels and Minmatar should also be more viable compared to their sentinel brethren now. New PG/CPU Assaults and Sentinels Are you sure about giving Assault suits similar EHP potential of Commandos? You may have to buff racial bonus from +2% per level to +3%.
Commandos have 400 hp base or more, assaults will get 300 base, ccp wanted the hp between commando and medium frame.
Max level brony.
Pink fluffy unicorns
http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos
Best song evar.
|
idlerowl
Old-Type
4
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 14:20:00 -
[454] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Here are new proposals for PG/CPU numbers that take into account revised slot layouts for Assaults and Sentinels. These are quite extensively tested and should allow, with all skills maxed to fit quite well. But nothing is better than players proving you wrong, so take a look and comment. Feedback that was taken into account that 1) Amarr had been given a similar boost, while they always had more PG/CPU but fewer slots. With the extra slot, such a discrepancy should not continue. 2) Caldari simply should not be forced to take a CPU mod, unless doing absolutely crazy things CPU wise. Caldari should now be able to fit competitively. 3) Even after the first proposed numbers, the consistent feedback was, Sentinels can still fit anything and still have space. We took another deep look and tweaked. Caldari Sentinels and Minmatar should also be more viable compared to their sentinel brethren now. New PG/CPU Assaults and Sentinels
NICE
I can't wait Hotfix Charlie
cal assault
Time has come |
JRleo jr
Xer Cloud Consortium
85
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 14:22:00 -
[455] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Buffing ehp will be the final decision, but if new slot theory crafting suggests it will be too much, then we can happily reconsider.
This doesn't apply to caldari because obvious reasons
I fear people will stack nothihg but armor plates in the lows, but people do that on every suit, so...idk.
Max level brony.
Pink fluffy unicorns
http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos
Best song evar.
|
Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
72
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 14:24:00 -
[456] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Buffing ehp will be the final decision, but if new slot theory crafting suggests it will be too much, then we can happily reconsider.
Thanks for all CPU gived to Caldari, it's good, really
But need those eHP buff, I really want, and all assaults really need this buff, I don't want to have an OP suit, but I say what is the best, and that is the best
Ho yeah Love you Rattati!
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Nirwanda Vaughns
426th Infantry
652
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 14:25:00 -
[457] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:FabryX10 wrote:@Rattati: I like new assault layouts instead of previous proposal. Just one thing... I think that logis should not have sidearm. Remove sidearm and add 1 equip to caldari and amarr logis. You will find that highly contested. We are hoping the combat logi designs and choice will tell us something about such player demand and desires. With assaults being buffed, there should be no worry about another dawn of the slayer logis.
personally the logis should just have a light weapon. its how it always was and anyone who is a real logi and playedthe class since the start wont mind. we're used to just havign a single weapon. seems the guys who want to use the logis as slayers are the ones doign the whining about sidearms beign taken. if you want to reduce slayer logis then harsh steps have to be taken. drop pg/cpu of logis and increase the equipment bonus. same with assaults and light wepaons. to cut down on heavies and scouts with light wepaons incrwase fittign requirements of light wepaons and increase the bonus assaults get.
that way you have a choice of usign a gun on a different suit but you're persuaded to use the weapon tier to th esuit. its liek in EVE the Raven can use heavy missile launchers vs smaller enemies but it gets skill bonus to cruise/torp launchers.
same as the cloak. you can fit a cloak on a commando. you cant fit much else on it but you can if you wanted to.
there are hundreds of game mechanics in eve that should have been in dust from the start and it would have been a far better game for it and it still could. peopel will whine that it would make it complicated but there are already complicated issues in dust anyway and we get around that by the experienced players passing info down through word of mouth and player written guides on the forums. its what has made the eve community stick around for 11yrs whereas dust struggled to last a year out of beta
Rolling with the punches
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4686
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 14:27:00 -
[458] - Quote
Nirwanda Vaughns wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:FabryX10 wrote:@Rattati: I like new assault layouts instead of previous proposal. Just one thing... I think that logis should not have sidearm. Remove sidearm and add 1 equip to caldari and amarr logis. You will find that highly contested. We are hoping the combat logi designs and choice will tell us something about such player demand and desires. With assaults being buffed, there should be no worry about another dawn of the slayer logis. personally the logis should just have a light weapon. its how it always was and anyone who is a real logi and playedthe class since the start wont mind. we're used to just havign a single weapon. seems the guys who want to use the logis as slayers are the ones doign the whining about sidearms beign taken. if you want to reduce slayer logis then harsh steps have to be taken. drop pg/cpu of logis and increase the equipment bonus. same with assaults and light wepaons. to cut down on heavies and scouts with light wepaons incrwase fittign requirements of light wepaons and increase the bonus assaults get. that way you have a choice of usign a gun on a different suit but you're persuaded to use the weapon tier to th esuit. its liek in EVE the Raven can use heavy missile launchers vs smaller enemies but it gets skill bonus to cruise/torp launchers. same as the cloak. you can fit a cloak on a commando. you cant fit much else on it but you can if you wanted to. there are hundreds of game mechanics in eve that should have been in dust from the start and it would have been a far better game for it and it still could. peopel will whine that it would make it complicated but there are already complicated issues in dust anyway and we get around that by the experienced players passing info down through word of mouth and player written guides on the forums. its what has made the eve community stick around for 11yrs whereas dust struggled to last a year out of beta
Everyone, please do not discuss logi sidearms any more. It's a Delta at best discussion. Thanks!
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Alldin Kan
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
1148
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 14:28:00 -
[459] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Buffing ehp will be the final decision, but if new slot theory crafting suggests it will be too much, then we can happily reconsider.
Thank you.
Alldin Kan has joined the battle!
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Dj grammer
New Age Empire.
General Tso's Alliance
287
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 14:37:00 -
[460] - Quote
So is everything set in stone for hotfix charlie?
why ccp?
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
3175
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Posted - 2014.07.23 15:03:00 -
[461] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Buffing ehp will be the final decision, but if new slot theory crafting suggests it will be too much, then we can happily reconsider.
In favor of both, +slot and +hp for Assault Frames. Better too much than not enough :-)
* Excluding Amarr Assault; the suit is competitive as is. Either +slot or +hp for this one, so it keeps pace with the others rather than remaining the best-in-class option.
Shoot scout with yes...
- Ripley Riley
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Mobius Kaethis
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
1540
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Posted - 2014.07.23 15:12:00 -
[462] - Quote
I like the new CPU/PG numbers for assaults Btw Rattati. Great work. Now to do something about those horrible assault bonuses.
Fun > Realism
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Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
73
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 15:28:00 -
[463] - Quote
@Rattati
Thanks for the CPU buff for Caldari assault, it's very cool
But, my request isn't cancelled, I'm reflecting on the eHP buff for assault...
I know I've many times spoken about that, but it's very important for assault, particulary for caldari assault.
I'll take for example my Caldari Assault (the basic one) (the Dragonfly C-I)
After Hotfix Charlie, I'll put 1 enhanced shield energizer, that's good. But, I'll loose some PG (30 => 27) so I'll be able to put just 1 shield extender (enhanced)
So, I'ld have 335HP - 4%(210) = 307HP shield.
So, ok, I'ld have a good shield regen, but, I'ld not be able to survive a battle one-one... (and I'll nor have armor...)
BUT, if you gived the eHP buff, I'ld get 450HP shield, and with my enhanced shield, and the energizer, I'ld have +/- 490HP shield. That's enought for assault.
A good slayer is a man who
- make damage (commando)
- survive => and that's where is the assault. SURVIVE => more HP => buff eHP
If you gived this buff, we should not put 3-4 shield extenders, but for example 1dmg mod, 2 energizer and 1-2 precision enhancer.
Give the mods to make a specialized assault is good. Make them not to have toput 3-4 shield extenders, is better.
Thanks for reading.
EDIT : I think people who don't want the eHP buff for assault, haven't played the assault suit since 1.8
I know how is the assault. This bonus is the best way to have a good assault
Ho yeah Love you Rattati!
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Alldin Kan
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
1149
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Posted - 2014.07.23 15:37:00 -
[464] - Quote
Killer's Coys wrote:EDIT : I think people who don't want the eHP buff for assault, haven't played the assault suit since 1.8
I know how is the assault. This bonus is the best way to have a good assault
Best way of making Commando irrelevant.
Alldin Kan has joined the battle!
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
484
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Posted - 2014.07.23 15:37:00 -
[465] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Here are new proposals for PG/CPU numbers that take into account revised slot layouts for Assaults and Sentinels. These are quite extensively tested and should allow, with all skills maxed to fit quite well. But nothing is better than players proving you wrong, so take a look and comment. Feedback that was taken into account that 1) Amarr had been given a similar boost, while they always had more PG/CPU but fewer slots. With the extra slot, such a discrepancy should not continue. 2) Caldari simply should not be forced to take a CPU mod, unless doing absolutely crazy things CPU wise. Caldari should now be able to fit competitively. 3) Even after the first proposed numbers, the consistent feedback was, Sentinels can still fit anything and still have space. We took another deep look and tweaked. Caldari Sentinels and Minmatar should also be more viable compared to their sentinel brethren now. New PG/CPU Assaults and Sentinels
are you still planning on reducing shield module cpu costs? |
Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
73
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Posted - 2014.07.23 15:40:00 -
[466] - Quote
Alldin Kan wrote:Killer's Coys wrote:EDIT : I think people who don't want the eHP buff for assault, haven't played the assault suit since 1.8
I know how is the assault. This bonus is the best way to have a good assault Best way of making Commando irrelevant.
No, they have DPS.
Ho yeah Love you Rattati!
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JRleo jr
Xer Cloud Consortium
86
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Posted - 2014.07.23 15:40:00 -
[467] - Quote
Killer's Coys wrote:Alldin Kan wrote:Killer's Coys wrote:EDIT : I think people who don't want the eHP buff for assault, haven't played the assault suit since 1.8
I know how is the assault. This bonus is the best way to have a good assault Best way of making Commando irrelevant. No, they have DPS.
And base hp.
Max level brony.
Pink fluffy unicorns
http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos
Best song evar.
|
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
3178
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 15:45:00 -
[468] - Quote
JRleo jr wrote:Killer's Coys wrote:
they have DPS.
And base hp.
And two light weapons ... how is that not awesome?
Alldin Kan is from Fantasy Land.
Shoot scout with yes...
- Ripley Riley
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Myron Kundera
The Generals
Anime Empire.
77
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Posted - 2014.07.23 15:48:00 -
[469] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:And we are back.
TLDR;
Charlie: New slot layout adopted for Sentinels and Assaults, with corresponding PG/CPU adaptations plus PG/CPU buff for Assaults and reduction for Sentinels. Universal slot layout matrix for Caldari changed from 4-1 to 3-2.
Now, based on your consolidated feedback,
The standardized slot layout matrix was pretty well received, yet overall there were the following worries:
1)Caldari Scouts not having 2 low slots at ADV, so couldnGÇÿt effectively dampen like the other three scouts
a.Scouts will be standardized and revised in Delta using the matrix.
b.Therefore, no changes to Scouts in Charlie, but KinCat, CodeBreaker and Nova Knife PG reduced so Minmatar will be able to fit with abandon.
2)Caldari Sentinels not having 2 low slots at PRO, so canGÇÿt fit an armor rep and regulator (for example)
a.Easy fix to this is to change the matrix to 3-2 instead of 4-1 for Caldari 5 slots.
b.Sentinel slots need to be changed in Charlie with corresponding PG/CPU changes.
c.Sentinels then get a fitting bonus to Heavy weapons and a moderate reduction of PG/CPU in Charlie.
3)Logistics, Amarr side arm and Caldari low slot at PRO
a.Our proposal is to give both the sidearm at the cost of a single slot, not two as in the case of the Amarr. The Caldari will trade a low slot for the sidearm and the Amarr will trade an equipment slot for the sidearm. Not until Delta though.
4)Logistics, Gallente and Caldari STD and ADV to have equal total slot count as other Logistics
a. These are scheduled for Delta as well as PG/CPU revisions if necessary.
5)Commandos
a.No changes in Charlie, new layout according to matrix in Delta and corresponding tweaks of PG/CPU.
6)Assault
a.Very few grievances, if at all, with the new the new Assault suit layout, so will be adopted fully in Charlie
b.Assault will move to a 4-6-8 layout of slots, gaining one high/low slot at both ADV and PRO. This standardizes Mediums and gives Assault a huge boost towards being a viable options in competitive surroundings.
c.Assault will also get the same fitting bonus to Grenades.
d.Assault will be getting a considerable buff to PG/CPU, shield tanking will be addressed but we are also looking at bringing energizers and rechargers down and trading for a small PG increase in Delta
e. Assault will gain 150 ehp.
Please give us feedback on this, and this time please stay on topic. Thanks.
Yes! this is awesome!
"Greed, the forgotten mental disease"
"Spray and pray makes my day"
"Will use proto gear in self defense"
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I-Shayz-I
I----------I
4268
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Posted - 2014.07.23 15:49:00 -
[470] - Quote
These numbers are a LOT better.
However I don't like seeing the Caldari std sentinel getting 3 highs with no lows, and the Amarr getting 3 lows with no highs.
I understand you want to follow a "pattern", but it just encourages players to only run the standard fit because going to advanced doesn't do much for them.
In other words, the step from std to advanced to be a huge improvement towards the main fitting of the suit. For Caldari you'd want another high slot, for Amarr you'd want another low slots.
Getting a high slot from std to advanced for Amarr does hardly anything for them. A single damage mod, shield extender, or even a shield recharger wouldn't do much.
However, advancing from a 1/2 to a 1/3 actually gives you something to work with.
______________________________________________________________________________________
The Caldari is more important, because you get your 3 high slots from standard level, and each step up gives you a not as useful low slot.
The std level makes sense to be 2/1. Advanced is fine at 3/1, and then proto at 3/2 gives the sentinel a huge buff. 1 slot does hardly anything for you, but two lows becomes amazing.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Finally, will the buff to Caldari Assault make it have more cpu than the Caldari Logistics? All of the assault capacity levels seem to be bordering Logistics....not sure how everyone feels about that.
I know this thread isn't about logistics, but seems kinda off, could be wrong though.
7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
List of Legion Feedback Threads!
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Alldin Kan
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
1149
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Posted - 2014.07.23 15:52:00 -
[471] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:JRleo jr wrote:Killer's Coys wrote:
they have DPS.
And base hp. And two light weapons ... Alldin Kan hails from Fantasy Land.
And a bigger Hitbox
And slower movement
Alldin Kan has joined the battle!
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Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
73
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Posted - 2014.07.23 15:56:00 -
[472] - Quote
Alldin Kan wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:JRleo jr wrote:Killer's Coys wrote:
they have DPS.
And base hp. And two light weapons ... Alldin Kan hails from Fantasy Land. And a bigger Hitbox And slower movement
Commando without passive : 480hp shield
assault without passive : 360hp
No the same
2 light weapon
I don't see why you want not .. What's the problem... Assault must have a DIRECT buff
Ho yeah Love you Rattati!
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Alldin Kan
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
1149
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Posted - 2014.07.23 15:57:00 -
[473] - Quote
I-Shayz-I wrote:Finally, will the buff to Caldari Assault make it have more cpu than the Caldari Logistics? All of the assault capacity levels seem to be bordering Logistics....not sure how everyone feels about that.
I know this thread isn't about logistics, but seems kinda off, could be wrong though.
Logis have several equipment slots, that's all it needs to fully support a team.
Alldin Kan has joined the battle!
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
3179
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Posted - 2014.07.23 15:58:00 -
[474] - Quote
I-Shayz-I wrote:
Finally, will the buff to Caldari Assault make it have more cpu than the Caldari Logistics? All of the assault capacity levels seem to be bordering Logistics....not sure how everyone feels about that.
I know this thread isn't about logistics, but seems kinda off, could be wrong though.
Shield extenders, regulators, rechargers and energizers ... all CPU intensive.
Shoot scout with yes...
- Ripley Riley
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
246
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Posted - 2014.07.23 16:05:00 -
[475] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Doc DDD wrote:Caldari sentinel should keep 4-1 slot layout at proto to see if shield changes help it's survival. 2 lows would more than likely translates to 2 plates ( unless you want to run around like alldin ). Having no armor reps was the inherent worry, so regulator and repper capability were widely requested. Having only one low makes you choose, and in many cases the rep would be preferred, making the shield tank less viable. Just my thoughts, am I way off?
I see where you are coming from, personally if I want reps on a cal sentinal I would use the one low slot for reactive or armor repper, but to be honest I am trying my hardest to go pure shield tank with it and only push forward with full shields. Usually just to back around a corner when shields are down to near zero, but then hopefully I am not alone as I am a better support heavy in caldari suit.
The big bonus is vs dropships with a forge, they have a difficult time with nice stacked shields quickly regenerating as I rarely sit in the open on top of a tower (jumping out of tank with forge = dropship activating afterburner).
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4692
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Posted - 2014.07.23 16:08:00 -
[476] - Quote
At four prototype equipment slots and a 25% fitting bonus, there is a hidden 40-60 CPU buffer for Logistics, I am not too worried but we have Delta to make further tweaks.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
3180
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Posted - 2014.07.23 16:10:00 -
[477] - Quote
Alldin Kan wrote:
And a bigger Hitbox
And slower movement
Yet brick remains in highest demand and Heavy Spam is all the rage.
Shoot scout with yes...
- Ripley Riley
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Nocturnal Soul
Immortal Retribution
3655
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Posted - 2014.07.23 16:43:00 -
[478] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Doc DDD wrote:Caldari sentinel should keep 4-1 slot layout at proto to see if shield changes help it's survival. 2 lows would more than likely translates to 2 plates ( unless you want to run around like alldin ). Having no armor reps was the inherent worry, so regulator and repper capability were widely requested. Having only one low makes you choose, and in many cases the rep would be preferred, making the shield tank less viable. Just my thoughts, am I way off? I see where you are coming from, personally if I want reps on a cal sentinal I would use the one low slot for reactive or armor repper, but to be honest I am trying my hardest to go pure shield tank with it and only push forward with full shields. Usually just to back around a corner when shields are down to near zero, but then hopefully I am not alone as I am a better support heavy in caldari suit. The big bonus is vs dropships with a forge, they have a difficult time with nice stacked shields quickly regenerating as I rarely sit in the open on top of a tower (jumping out of tank with forge = dropship activating afterburner).
Agreed
Run, hide in fear while you can for the Amarr Scout is on the hunt!
The eyes of God compelles you!!!
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Celus Ivara
DUST University
Ivy League
229
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Posted - 2014.07.23 17:10:00 -
[479] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Buffing ehp will be the final decision, but if new slot theory crafting suggests it will be too much, then we can happily reconsider.
My 2 ISK would be to hold off on a decision on the EHP buff 'till Delta. You'll want to see what the new slots do first.
Too many rule changes overlapping each other, and going live at once, can cloud devs/players understanding of how the new changes are affecting the game.
Much can be figured out from theory-crafting, but ultimately you'll need see mechanics in action to figure out where you are.
/2 ISK
Supporting Kevall Longstride, CEO of DUST University, for CPM1
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Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
73
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Posted - 2014.07.23 17:14:00 -
[480] - Quote
Celus Ivara wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Buffing ehp will be the final decision, but if new slot theory crafting suggests it will be too much, then we can happily reconsider. My 2 ISK would be to hold off on a decision on the EHP buff 'till Delta. You'll want to see what the new slots do first. Too many rule changes overlapping each other, and going live at once, can cloud devs/players understanding of how the new changes are affecting the game. Much can be figured out from theory-crafting, but ultimately you'll need see mechanics in action to figure out where you are. /2 ISK
For me, the HP buff is in the package...
Slot buff and PG/CPU buff ? => this is one thing
and fo basic assault ? the buff is early inexistant...
So HP buff is very important for me, for assault. It's important to have this buff, to be better than scouts-tanked
Ho yeah Love you Rattati!
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IAmDuncanIdaho II
R 0 N 1 N
621
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Posted - 2014.07.23 17:18:00 -
[481] - Quote
All in all, awesome work, feedback looks promising. Just a couple comments.
CCP Rattati wrote:
Caldari Scouts not having 2 low slots at ADV, so couldnGÇÿt effectively dampen like the other three scouts
My CalScout sends his love, however:
CCP Rattati wrote:
Universal slot layout matrix for Caldari changed from 4-1 to 3-2.
It does seem like general feedback favours a 3-2 layout on Caldari non-scout suits; you previously mentioned using footnotes to indicate exceptions to the normalised slot layouts. Is it worth looking at Cal at 4-1 *except* for the scout suit? Isn't this something that would benefit everyone?
CCP Rattati wrote:
>KinCat, CodeBreaker and Nova Knife PG reduced so Minmatar will be able to fit with abandon.
Did you consider increasing MinScout PG instead? Might reducing the mods themselves lead to over-use by others, especially non-scouts? Or are you not worried that, for example, fitting the Amarr PRO assault with five kincats would be a pointless exercise due to stacking penalties?
You must learn honor, or you deserve to learn nothing at all.
~ Rivvy Dinari - Swordmaster of Ginaz
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JRleo jr
Xer Cloud Consortium
88
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Posted - 2014.07.23 17:25:00 -
[482] - Quote
Killer's Coys wrote:Celus Ivara wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Buffing ehp will be the final decision, but if new slot theory crafting suggests it will be too much, then we can happily reconsider. My 2 ISK would be to hold off on a decision on the EHP buff 'till Delta. You'll want to see what the new slots do first. Too many rule changes overlapping each other, and going live at once, can cloud devs/players understanding of how the new changes are affecting the game. Much can be figured out from theory-crafting, but ultimately you'll need see mechanics in action to figure out where you are. /2 ISK For me, the HP buff is in the package... Slot buff and PG/CPU buff ? => this is one thing and fo basic assault ? the buff is early inexistant... So HP buff is very important for me, for assault. It's important to have this buff, to be better than scouts-tanked
Still waiting for cal assault base rep rate buff...
Max level brony.
Pink fluffy unicorns
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Best song evar.
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Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
75
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Posted - 2014.07.23 17:28:00 -
[483] - Quote
JRleo jr wrote:
Still waiting for cal assault base rep rate buff...
I don't know, I think we never have this thing, just hope HP buff, and for me it's ok
Ho yeah Love you Rattati!
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Boot Booter
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
761
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 17:58:00 -
[484] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:We would rather cut the ehp buff than the additional slots, we feel it underlines the versatility aspect of the assault, spec for the situation.
I agree. The eHP buff is not needed with the extra slot gain at ADV and pro. Especially considering where commandos are. At least we can wait to see how assaults fair with just slot and capacity changes, and evaluate again for delta or later.
Can you please update the original spreadsheet with proposed slot layouts for assaults? Is the ADV minmatar assault going to 3/3, is the pro going to 4/4? I'd like to begin 'theorycrafting'.
What happened to the repair tool glow?
Why won't CCP answer?
Conspiracy?
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Cyrus Grevare
WarRavens
Final Resolution.
252
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Posted - 2014.07.23 17:59:00 -
[485] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Francois Sanchez wrote:And looking at the assault buff, I'm now a bit worried about commandos. With 8 slots and 150 extra EHP, assaults can easily become harder to kill than commandos while taking 2 damage mods to compensate commandos natural bonus. I am hoping Cyrus and protofits can help the community again, so you can theorycraft properly. We will have a final review before we push the button.
And updated o7
I updated the slot layout, revised PG/CPU, implemented the Grenade reduction for Assault class and heavy weapon reduction for Heavy weapons in the Sentinel class.
A couple of questions though,
Slot changes for Assault and Sentinel are confirmed, what about the rest of the classes? I see the gdoc has changes for the Commandos, Logistics and Scout classes, do I ignore these or are they also slated for Charlie? (included them in my recent update to the site) Amarr Logistics have the new slot proposal + sidearm slots giving a 9 slot count to them.
Can you share how that 150ehp is split for the races?, I could update that as well in the site.
www.protofits.com - a Dust 514 fitting tool
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Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
75
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Posted - 2014.07.23 18:08:00 -
[486] - Quote
Sorry..
But I don't understand why people who haven't played assault since 1.8 WANT NOT the proposed buff !
I'm not a heavy, I don't tell anything about the heavies PG/CPU / buff / nerf etc...
I'm an assault, I care about assault !
You aren't assault, so I don't know why you want to speak about assault...
If you were an assault (especially caldari assault), you'ld understand why it's important.
For armor-tanker, maybe not very important, but for shield-tankers, it's VERY important
Complex shield extender : 66HP and cost 54CPU 11G ???
Basic armor plate : 85HP and 9CPU 3 PG
Here you are why 'must have eHP buff. Because shield extenders aren't enought powerful to have enought HP
And, everybody doesn't play with ADV or PRO, but, I think, STA assault doesn't have an extra slot, does it ?
NO. So, you are going to say any buff for STA assault ? Let me laught
150HP is a bit so much, but 100~120 is good.
Whatever, you love so much you scout-tanked that you want not the REAL assault will be buffed, and I don't understand why you can do that...
If you played with the assault suit, you'ld understand why it's so important.
Specially for shield-tankers
Ho yeah Love you Rattati!
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JRleo jr
Xer Cloud Consortium
89
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Posted - 2014.07.23 18:10:00 -
[487] - Quote
Cyrus Grevare wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Francois Sanchez wrote:And looking at the assault buff, I'm now a bit worried about commandos. With 8 slots and 150 extra EHP, assaults can easily become harder to kill than commandos while taking 2 damage mods to compensate commandos natural bonus. I am hoping Cyrus and protofits can help the community again, so you can theorycraft properly. We will have a final review before we push the button. And updated o7 I updated the slot layout, revised PG/CPU, implemented the Grenade reduction for Assault class and heavy weapon reduction for Heavy weapons in the Sentinel class. A couple of questions though, Slot changes for Assault and Sentinel are confirmed, what about the rest of the classes? I see the gdoc has changes for the Commandos, Logistics and Scout classes, do I ignore these or are they also slated for Charlie? (included them in my recent update to the site) Amarr Logistics have the new slot proposal + sidearm slots giving a 9 slot count to them. Can you share how that 150ehp is split for the races?, I could update that as well in the site.
Cal assault ck.0 is missing a low slot on proto fits.
And ccp, may I suggest buffing base rep rate of cal assault shields to 35, or 45, and it'd be nice if the cal assault got a garunteed 50 hp buff.
Max level brony.
Pink fluffy unicorns
http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos
Best song evar.
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Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
77
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Posted - 2014.07.23 18:12:00 -
[488] - Quote
JRleo jr wrote:
Cal assault ck.0 is missing a low slot on proto fits.
.
He is right, missing 1 hight slot for Calda assault ADV and 1 low for ck.0 assault
JRleo jr wrote:
And ccp, may I suggest buffing base rep rate of cal assault shields to 35, or 45, and it'd be nice if the cal assault got a garunteed 50 hp buff.
I love you my friend
I propose +/- 75/100HP buff on the shield
Ho yeah Love you Rattati!
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JRleo jr
Xer Cloud Consortium
89
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Posted - 2014.07.23 18:14:00 -
[489] - Quote
Killer's Coys wrote:JRleo jr wrote:
Cal assault ck.0 is missing a low slot on proto fits.
.
He is right, missing 1 hight slot for Calda assault ADV and 1 low for ck.0 assault JRleo jr wrote:
And ccp, may I suggest buffing base rep rate of cal assault shields to 35, or 45, and it'd be nice if the cal assault got a garunteed 50 hp buff.
I love you my friend I propose +/- 75/100HP buff on the shield
If ccp listens to me, only around 50, I don't want people to scream op.
Max level brony.
Pink fluffy unicorns
http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos
Best song evar.
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Cyrus Grevare
WarRavens
Final Resolution.
252
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Posted - 2014.07.23 18:21:00 -
[490] - Quote
Killer's Coys wrote:JRleo jr wrote:
Cal assault ck.0 is missing a low slot on proto fits.
.
He is right, missing 1 hight slot for Calda assault ADV and 1 low for ck.0 assault JRleo jr wrote:
And ccp, may I suggest buffing base rep rate of cal assault shields to 35, or 45, and it'd be nice if the cal assault got a garunteed 50 hp buff.
I love you my friend I propose +/- 75/100HP buff on the shield
I keep checking the gdoc, ADV Cal Assault reads 3/2, PRO Cal 5/2. Am I missing something?
www.protofits.com - a Dust 514 fitting tool
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Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
78
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Posted - 2014.07.23 18:24:00 -
[491] - Quote
Cal ADV is : 4/2 and pro : 5/3
Ho yeah Love you Rattati!
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Cyrus Grevare
WarRavens
Final Resolution.
252
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Posted - 2014.07.23 18:28:00 -
[492] - Quote
Killer's Coys wrote:Cal ADV is : 4/2 and pro : 5/3
I'm using the gdoc at the start of this thread either it has a mistake, or that layout you mention is somewhere else (?) or I'm just getting lines mixed still don't see it.
Are you using another source?
www.protofits.com - a Dust 514 fitting tool
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JRleo jr
Xer Cloud Consortium
90
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Posted - 2014.07.23 18:30:00 -
[493] - Quote
Cyrus Grevare wrote:Killer's Coys wrote:Cal ADV is : 4/2 and pro : 5/3 I'm using the gdoc at the start of this thread either it has a mistake, or that layout you mention is somewhere else (?) or I'm just getting lines mixed still don't see it. Are you using another source?
http://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BzF7A13JDvYo40hyj0t7g2kgRnqNq9jFepnq5ztNUY0/edit#gid=0
Max level brony.
Pink fluffy unicorns
http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos
Best song evar.
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Cyrus Grevare
WarRavens
Final Resolution.
252
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Posted - 2014.07.23 18:34:00 -
[494] - Quote
Thanks, but that's only PG/CPU, I think so far that one is correct, I can't find yet the slot layouts you mentioned.
www.protofits.com - a Dust 514 fitting tool
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Boot Booter
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
761
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 18:34:00 -
[495] - Quote
Killer's Coys wrote:Sorry.. But I don't understand why people who haven't played assault since 1.8 WANT NOT the proposed buff ! I'm not a heavy, I don't tell anything about the heavies PG/CPU / buff / nerf etc... I'm an assault, I care about assault ! You aren't assault, so I don't know why you want to speak about assault... If you were an assault (especially caldari assault), you'ld understand why it's important. For armor-tanker, maybe not very important, but for shield-tankers, it's VERY important Complex shield extender : 66HP and cost 54CPU 11G ??? Basic armor plate : 85HP and 9CPU 3 PG Here you are why 'must have eHP buff. Because shield extenders aren't enought powerful to have enought HP And, everybody doesn't play with ADV or PRO, but, I think, STA assault doesn't have an extra slot, does it ? NO. So, you are going to say any buff for STA assault ? Let me laught 150HP is a bit so much, but 100~120 is good. Whatever, you love so much you scout-tanked that you want not the REAL assault will be buffed, and I don't understand why you can do that... If you played with the assault suit, you'ld understand why it's so important. Specially for shield-tankers
If that was directed at me....
I've been minmatar assault exclusively since 1.0. I currently use my assault in extremely competitive PC matches. I know assault, I know shield tanking.
The reason I say hp buff is not needed is because I usually run my min commando at around 850 to 900 eHP. With slot and capacity changes to assaults my min assault can almost reach this while having better speed, hit box, regen, and stamina. Commandos should have more HP than assaults IMO. The HP buff would make commandos completely useless (if they are not already).
What happened to the repair tool glow?
Why won't CCP answer?
Conspiracy?
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JRleo jr
Xer Cloud Consortium
90
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 18:36:00 -
[496] - Quote
Cyrus Grevare wrote:Thanks, but that's only PG/CPU, I think so far that one is correct, I can't find yet the slot layouts you mentioned.
Look to the left of old prop cpu, seriously it's not hard to find.
Max level brony.
Pink fluffy unicorns
http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos
Best song evar.
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Boot Booter
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
761
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 18:39:00 -
[497] - Quote
Cyrus Grevare wrote:Thanks, but that's only PG/CPU, I think so far that one is correct, I can't find yet the slot layouts you mentioned.
I don't think Rattati has updated the original spreadsheet. You can see it says 8 high and low slots for Assault but then looking at the actual layout suggests it is still 7 (ex. 5/2 for cal assault).
Waiting on Rattati.
What happened to the repair tool glow?
Why won't CCP answer?
Conspiracy?
|
Cyrus Grevare
WarRavens
Final Resolution.
255
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 18:40:00 -
[498] - Quote
Yep, my bad, I see it now, mixed with the new PG/CPU there's a couple of prop high / low columns. On it o7
www.protofits.com - a Dust 514 fitting tool
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JRleo jr
Xer Cloud Consortium
90
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 18:40:00 -
[499] - Quote
Cyrus Grevare wrote:Yep, my bad, I see it now, mixed with the new PG/CPU there's a couple of prop high / low columns. On it o7
Lol, I guess you look at these things too much.
Max level brony.
Pink fluffy unicorns
http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos
Best song evar.
|
Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
78
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 18:42:00 -
[500] - Quote
Boot Booter wrote:Killer's Coys wrote:Sorry.. But I don't understand why people who haven't played assault since 1.8 WANT NOT the proposed buff ! I'm not a heavy, I don't tell anything about the heavies PG/CPU / buff / nerf etc... I'm an assault, I care about assault ! You aren't assault, so I don't know why you want to speak about assault... If you were an assault (especially caldari assault), you'ld understand why it's important. For armor-tanker, maybe not very important, but for shield-tankers, it's VERY important Complex shield extender : 66HP and cost 54CPU 11G ??? Basic armor plate : 85HP and 9CPU 3 PG Here you are why 'must have eHP buff. Because shield extenders aren't enought powerful to have enought HP And, everybody doesn't play with ADV or PRO, but, I think, STA assault doesn't have an extra slot, does it ? NO. So, you are going to say any buff for STA assault ? Let me laught 150HP is a bit so much, but 100~120 is good. Whatever, you love so much you scout-tanked that you want not the REAL assault will be buffed, and I don't understand why you can do that... If you played with the assault suit, you'ld understand why it's so important. Specially for shield-tankers If that was directed at me.... I've been minmatar assault exclusively since 1.0. I currently use my assault in extremely competitive PC matches. I know assault, I know shield tanking. The reason I say hp buff is not needed is because I usually run my min commando at around 850 to 900 eHP. With slot and capacity changes to assaults my min assault can almost reach this while having better speed, hit box, regen, and stamina. Commandos should have more HP than assaults IMO. The HP buff would make commandos completely useless (if they are not already).
...and you were probably useless (I don't say you are a bad player, just the suit)
Assault must have more HP, or give an extra slot for STA assault.
I don't understand why we speak about an assault buff if the STA assault doesn't get this buff...
Ho, yes, minma assault has more stamina, speed, stamina regen, so if the calda assault wants to have the same, he must have more HP to be able to put cardiac reg, kitkat and blablabla...
If you want my real idea, I can tell you :
- Caldari : +70~80HP shield
- Minmatar : +30HP shield and +15HP armor
- Gallente : +30HP armor
- Amarr : +20HP armor (or nothing)
Ho yeah Love you Rattati!
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Boot Booter
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
762
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 18:52:00 -
[501] - Quote
^killer, how is that balanced?
Sounds like you're just biased towards Caldari Assault. Look you keep coming back to this "minmatar is better because this and that module"
So I'll lay it out for you..
Minmatar gains.
Kincat basic
Cardiac regulator (erm not sure)
Ferroscale (only 15 hp actually so like half a basic)
Strafe speed... OK.
Caldari gains
Shield extender (between ADV and pro)
Basic recharger
Basic regulator (or something)
It's already balanced!!!!! Can someone please back me up on this.
What happened to the repair tool glow?
Why won't CCP answer?
Conspiracy?
|
BlazeXYZ
xCosmic Voidx
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
56
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 18:55:00 -
[502] - Quote
Boot Booter wrote:^killer, how is that balanced?
Sounds like you're just biased towards Caldari Assault. Look you keep coming back to this "minmatar is better because this and that module"
So I'll lay it out for you..
Minmatar gains.
Kincat basic
Cardiac regulator (erm not sure)
Ferroscale (only 15 hp actually so like half a basic)
Strafe speed... OK.
Caldari gains
Shield extender (between ADV and pro)
Basic recharger
Basic regulator (or something)
It's already balanced!!!!! Can someone please back me up on this.
Looks balanced to me.
The Blazing Intellect Machine
|
JRleo jr
Xer Cloud Consortium
93
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 19:08:00 -
[503] - Quote
Boot Booter wrote:^killer, how is that balanced?
Sounds like you're just biased towards Caldari Assault. Look you keep coming back to this "minmatar is better because this and that module"
So I'll lay it out for you..
Minmatar gains.
Kincat basic
Cardiac regulator (erm not sure)
Ferroscale (only 15 hp actually so like half a basic)
Strafe speed... OK.
Caldari gains
Shield extender (between ADV and pro)
Basic recharger
Basic regulator (or something)
It's already balanced!!!!! Can someone please back me up on this.
Edit: if I were useless, they'd stop putting me in. I know for a fact that with the changes, I personally will be OP. How? Because I can fit my logi as if it were an assault and wreck face. Now you're saying I can do that same fit with my assault while having more speed, stamina, strafe, regen, and a sidearm. Seriously watch out. WE don't need the HP buff. I think it might tip the FOTM scale to assaults.
We still have the hmg ya know, and stuff like that...and shotguns I guess?
Max level brony.
Pink fluffy unicorns
http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos
Best song evar.
|
Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
79
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 19:25:00 -
[504] - Quote
Boot Booter wrote:^killer, how is that balanced?
Sounds like you're just biased towards Caldari Assault. Look you keep coming back to this "minmatar is better because this and that module"
So I'll lay it out for you..
Minmatar gains.
Kincat basic
Cardiac regulator (erm not sure)
Ferroscale (only 15 hp actually so like half a basic)
Strafe speed... OK.
Caldari gains
Shield extender (between ADV and pro)
Basic recharger
Basic regulator (or something)
It's already balanced!!!!! Can someone please back me up on this.
I've said, if I could choose my dream is to have an OP caldari assault, isn't your ?
Boot Booter wrote:
Edit: if I were useless, they'd stop putting me in. I know for a fact that with the changes, I personally will be OP. How? Because I can fit my logi as if it were an assault and wreck face. Now you're saying I can do that same fit with my assault while having more speed, stamina, strafe, regen, and a sidearm. Seriously watch out. WE don't need the HP buff. I think it might tip the FOTM scale to assaults.
I haven't said you (the person) were useless, you (I think) can make some godd things, but I don't think you play everytime (in BC) with your minma assault, do you ? You have said : you have a commando and a logi
The problem of assault is that : (I'll take with calda, it's the more demonstrative)
Calda scout ck.0 full shield extender :
=> http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/84/5693
- 453hp shield
- more speed
- more stamina
- more shield regen
- more stamina regen
- smaller hitbox
- cloack
- suit bonus (at the moment : scan precision, after hotfix charlie : dampener)
- an other equipment
- more straff speed
- less dampener
- more scan precision
Assault ck.0 to have the same :
=> http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/84/5695
with that, it does the same thing as the scout ck.0, but
- not the cloack
- less straff speed
- bigger hitbox
Result ?
You can become as good as a scout, but without the 3 things I've written above
Why choose an Assault if the scout can make the same work as them ?
Assault must have a "+" at the beginning. I propose more eHP
And for me, commando and assault are almost the same.
PS: Don't be angry, old bro', we are just discussing together You propose your points, I propose mine
Ho yeah Love you Rattati!
|
RogueTrooper 2000AD
Neckbeard Absolution
166
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 19:31:00 -
[505] - Quote
Boot Booter wrote:^killer, how is that balanced?
Sounds like you're just biased towards Caldari Assault. Look you keep coming back to this "minmatar is better because this and that module"
So I'll lay it out for you..
Minmatar gains.
Kincat basic
Cardiac regulator (erm not sure)
Ferroscale (only 15 hp actually so like half a basic)
Strafe speed... OK.
Caldari gains
Shield extender (between ADV and pro)
Basic recharger
Basic regulator (or something)
It's already balanced!!!!! Can someone please back me up on this.
Edit: if I were useless, they'd stop putting me in. I know for a fact that with the changes, I personally will be OP. How? Because I can fit my logi as if it were an assault and wreck face. Now you're saying I can do that same fit with my assault while having more speed, stamina, strafe, regen, and a sidearm. Seriously watch out. WE don't need the HP buff. I think it might tip the FOTM scale to assaults.
He runs cal assault.
Just another neckbeard, ignore it.
Service with a smile
|
JRleo jr
Xer Cloud Consortium
94
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 19:33:00 -
[506] - Quote
Killer's Coys wrote:Boot Booter wrote:^killer, how is that balanced?
Sounds like you're just biased towards Caldari Assault. Look you keep coming back to this "minmatar is better because this and that module"
So I'll lay it out for you..
Minmatar gains.
Kincat basic
Cardiac regulator (erm not sure)
Ferroscale (only 15 hp actually so like half a basic)
Strafe speed... OK.
Caldari gains
Shield extender (between ADV and pro)
Basic recharger
Basic regulator (or something)
It's already balanced!!!!! Can someone please back me up on this. I've said, if I could choose my dream is to have an OP caldari assault, isn't your ? Boot Booter wrote:
Edit: if I were useless, they'd stop putting me in. I know for a fact that with the changes, I personally will be OP. How? Because I can fit my logi as if it were an assault and wreck face. Now you're saying I can do that same fit with my assault while having more speed, stamina, strafe, regen, and a sidearm. Seriously watch out. WE don't need the HP buff. I think it might tip the FOTM scale to assaults.
I haven't said you (the person) were useless, you (I think) can make some godd things, but I don't think you play everytime (in BC) with your minma assault, do you ? You have said : you have a commando and a logi The problem of assault is that : (I'll take with calda, it's the more demonstrative) Calda scout ck.0 full shield extender : => http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/84/5693
- 453hp shield - more speed - more stamina - more shield regen - more stamina regen - smaller hitbox - cloack - suit bonus (at the moment : scan precision, after hotfix charlie : dampener) - an other equipment - more straff speed - less dampener - more scan precision Assault ck.0 to have the same : => http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/84/5695
with that, it does the same thing as the scout ck.0, but - not the cloack - less straff speed - bigger hitbox Result ? You can become as good as a scout, but without the 3 things I've written above Why choose an Assault if the scout can make the same work as them ? Assault must have a "+" at the beginning. I propose more eHP And for me, commando and assault are almost the same. PS: Don't be angry, old bro', we are just discussing together You propose your points, I propose mine
Yea I completely forgot scout assaults better.
Max level brony.
Pink fluffy unicorns
http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos
Best song evar.
|
Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
81
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 19:36:00 -
[507] - Quote
RogueTrooper 2000AD wrote:
He runs cal assault.
Just another neckbeard, ignore it.
Say me that in my eyes.
If you were able to read, I've said that's what I wanted to have an OP suit.
Do you know the "joke" concept ? I think you don't.
So, to have balanced things, the best is give the same HP.
That's easy, behind your computer, kidding people
Ho yeah Love you Rattati!
|
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4706
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 19:51:00 -
[508] - Quote
Cyrus Grevare wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Francois Sanchez wrote:And looking at the assault buff, I'm now a bit worried about commandos. With 8 slots and 150 extra EHP, assaults can easily become harder to kill than commandos while taking 2 damage mods to compensate commandos natural bonus. I am hoping Cyrus and protofits can help the community again, so you can theorycraft properly. We will have a final review before we push the button. And updated o7 I updated the slot layout, revised PG/CPU, implemented the Grenade reduction for Assault class and heavy weapon reduction for Heavy weapons in the Sentinel class. A couple of questions though, Slot changes for Assault and Sentinel are confirmed, what about the rest of the classes? I see the gdoc has changes for the Commandos, Logistics and Scout classes, do I ignore these or are they also slated for Charlie? (included them in my recent update to the site) Amarr Logistics have the new slot proposal + sidearm slots giving a 9 slot count to them. Can you share how that 150ehp is split for the races?, I could update that as well in the site.
Probably not a good idea to put it into proto, players can add that manually.
Using the current ehp split, would look like this at 150 ehp, again, to be re-evaluated based on community feedback.
ArmorShield
AM 100 50
CA 55 95
GA 95 55
MM 71 79
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
|
|
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4706
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 19:53:00 -
[509] - Quote
Boot Booter wrote:Cyrus Grevare wrote:Thanks, but that's only PG/CPU, I think so far that one is correct, I can't find yet the slot layouts you mentioned. I don't think Rattati has updated the original spreadsheet. You can see it says 8 high and low slots for Assault but then looking at the actual layout suggests it is still 7 (ex. 5/2 for cal assault). Waiting on Rattati.
Sorry, didn't see where the error was coming from, but yes, the latest spreadsheet overrules the original.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
|
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Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
81
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 19:57:00 -
[510] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Cyrus Grevare wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Francois Sanchez wrote:And looking at the assault buff, I'm now a bit worried about commandos. With 8 slots and 150 extra EHP, assaults can easily become harder to kill than commandos while taking 2 damage mods to compensate commandos natural bonus. I am hoping Cyrus and protofits can help the community again, so you can theorycraft properly. We will have a final review before we push the button. And updated o7 I updated the slot layout, revised PG/CPU, implemented the Grenade reduction for Assault class and heavy weapon reduction for Heavy weapons in the Sentinel class. A couple of questions though, Slot changes for Assault and Sentinel are confirmed, what about the rest of the classes? I see the gdoc has changes for the Commandos, Logistics and Scout classes, do I ignore these or are they also slated for Charlie? (included them in my recent update to the site) Amarr Logistics have the new slot proposal + sidearm slots giving a 9 slot count to them. Can you share how that 150ehp is split for the races?, I could update that as well in the site. Probably not a good idea to put it into proto, players can add that manually. Using the current ehp split, would look like this at 150 ehp, again, to be re-evaluated based on community feedback. ArmorShield AM 100 50 CA 55 95 GA 95 55 MM 71 79
Love you, good job.
At the beginning, I thought you wanted to put xHP on shield (for shield-tanker) or on armor (for armor-tanker).
But it's better like this I think.
150eHP in amor OR shield would be a bit op( so much HP in one way)
but like this, you aren't a passive tanker. Good. Really.
For me, that's perfect.
Waiting for the others opinions o7
@Cyrus Grevare :
Don't add this, players can do that alone, your work is just amazing, take some rest
Ho yeah Love you Rattati!
|
|
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
485
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 19:58:00 -
[511] - Quote
so this... will be awesome lol
http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/1134/5699
all i need to know now is how the 150 eHP will be allocated between shields and armor. |
JRleo jr
Xer Cloud Consortium
94
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 20:00:00 -
[512] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Cyrus Grevare wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Francois Sanchez wrote:And looking at the assault buff, I'm now a bit worried about commandos. With 8 slots and 150 extra EHP, assaults can easily become harder to kill than commandos while taking 2 damage mods to compensate commandos natural bonus. I am hoping Cyrus and protofits can help the community again, so you can theorycraft properly. We will have a final review before we push the button. And updated o7 I updated the slot layout, revised PG/CPU, implemented the Grenade reduction for Assault class and heavy weapon reduction for Heavy weapons in the Sentinel class. A couple of questions though, Slot changes for Assault and Sentinel are confirmed, what about the rest of the classes? I see the gdoc has changes for the Commandos, Logistics and Scout classes, do I ignore these or are they also slated for Charlie? (included them in my recent update to the site) Amarr Logistics have the new slot proposal + sidearm slots giving a 9 slot count to them. Can you share how that 150ehp is split for the races?, I could update that as well in the site. Probably not a good idea to put it into proto, players can add that manually. Using the current ehp split, would look like this at 150 ehp, again, to be re-evaluated based on community feedback. ArmorShield AM 100 50 CA 55 95 GA 95 55 MM 71 79
Could you please explain those numbers?
Max level brony.
Pink fluffy unicorns
http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos
Best song evar.
|
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11211
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 20:01:00 -
[513] - Quote
JRleo jr wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Cyrus Grevare wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Francois Sanchez wrote:And looking at the assault buff, I'm now a bit worried about commandos. With 8 slots and 150 extra EHP, assaults can easily become harder to kill than commandos while taking 2 damage mods to compensate commandos natural bonus. I am hoping Cyrus and protofits can help the community again, so you can theorycraft properly. We will have a final review before we push the button. And updated o7 I updated the slot layout, revised PG/CPU, implemented the Grenade reduction for Assault class and heavy weapon reduction for Heavy weapons in the Sentinel class. A couple of questions though, Slot changes for Assault and Sentinel are confirmed, what about the rest of the classes? I see the gdoc has changes for the Commandos, Logistics and Scout classes, do I ignore these or are they also slated for Charlie? (included them in my recent update to the site) Amarr Logistics have the new slot proposal + sidearm slots giving a 9 slot count to them. Can you share how that 150ehp is split for the races?, I could update that as well in the site. Probably not a good idea to put it into proto, players can add that manually. Using the current ehp split, would look like this at 150 ehp, again, to be re-evaluated based on community feedback. ArmorShield AM 100 50 CA 55 95 GA 95 55 MM 71 79 Could you please explain those numbers?
Amarr gain 100 armor and 50 shields.
Caldari gain 55 armor and 95 shields.
Gallente gain 95 armor and 55 shields.
Minmatar gain 71 armor and 79 shields.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
|
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
3198
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 20:06:00 -
[514] - Quote
Killer's Coys wrote:@Cyrus Grevare : your work is just amazing, take some rest
^ This. Mr Protofits is the man.
Shoot scout with yes...
- Ripley Riley
|
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11212
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 20:10:00 -
[515] - Quote
*Whips Cyrus*
NO!
NO RESTING!
UPDATE PROTOFITS AGAIN! 
*Whip*
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Harpyja
Legio DXIV
2137
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 20:18:00 -
[516] - Quote
Amarr assault needs more PG.
Assault G/1-Series
Assault A/1-Series
Though Amarr uses a ScR and Gallente uses an AR, they are still their racial rifles so in essence, the fits are exactly identical. Notice that the Gallente has no trouble fitting that, while Amarr can't. Just for the fact that the ScR requires 10 more PG, Amarr should have 10 (or at least 5) more PG over Gallente, not 2. Then add a little extra because Amarr should be the best armor tanker so extra PG allows slightly better armor modules (complex plate instead of enhanced plate or complex ferroscales instead of enhanced plates, for example).
"By His light, and His will"- The Scriptures, 12:32
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Cyrus Grevare
WarRavens
Final Resolution.
258
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 20:19:00 -
[517] - Quote
Killer's Coys wrote:@Cyrus Grevare : Don't add this, players can do that alone, your work is just amazing, take some rest
Ok, I'll leave it for now. And rest? maybe later, a month ago I was about to cancel the project, inspiration is coming back!
www.protofits.com - a Dust 514 fitting tool
|
The Eristic
Dust 90210
584
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 20:20:00 -
[518] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:We would rather cut the ehp buff than the additional slots, we feel it underlines the versatility aspect of the assault, spec for the situation.
An 8th slot doesn't underline versatility, it removes the necessity of choice in suit building, further enables, nay, encourages dual tanking and destroys the lore-appropriate racial alignments the 7-slot reworking was intended to give us. You have to make people make choices, or they'll go the easy route every time. See every FotM ever for evidence. There WILL be 1200+ HP Proto Assaults stomping Pubs (which, btw, will further marginalize Laser weaponry). The Amarr at 3-5 will be able hit 1300 and carry a Boundless CR BEFORE the additional 150 HP buff, and Gal won't be too far behind with greater mobility and built-in reps. Toss in a logi friend and the Assaults are now into Sentinel territory. Even if a suit decides to give up a primary tank slot for a non-HP mod, the additional secondary tank slot makes compensating for it that much easier, making the decision less meaningful. Cut the slot. Make choices matter.
Reality is the original Rorschach.
Verily! So much for all that.
|
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11213
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 20:22:00 -
[519] - Quote
Harpyja wrote:Amarr assault needs more PG. Assault G/1-SeriesAssault A/1-SeriesThough Amarr uses a ScR and Gallente uses an AR, they are still their racial rifles so in essence, the fits are exactly identical. Notice that the Gallente has no trouble fitting that, while Amarr can't. Just for the fact that the ScR requires 10 more PG, Amarr should have 10 (or at least 5) more PG over Gallente, not 2. Then add a little extra because Amarr should be the best armor tanker so extra PG allows slightly better armor modules (complex plate instead of enhanced plate or complex ferroscales instead of enhanced plates, for example).
Few things:
SCR costs 7 more PG over Duvolle, not 10.
Amarr are getting 5 more PG than Gallente
Amarr aren't "better" armor tankers, they're a type of armor tanker
Amarr - Brick
Gallente - Fast and regenerative
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
|
Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
82
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 20:23:00 -
[520] - Quote
The Eristic wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:We would rather cut the ehp buff than the additional slots, we feel it underlines the versatility aspect of the assault, spec for the situation. An 8th slot doesn't underline versatility, it removes the necessity of choice in suit building, further enables, nay, encourages dual tanking and destroys the lore-appropriate racial alignments the 7-slot reworking was intended to give us. You have to make people make choices, or they'll go the easy route every time. See every FotM ever for evidence. There WILL be 1200+ HP Proto Assaults stomping Pubs (which, btw, will further marginalize Laser weaponry). The Amarr at 3-5 will be able hit 1300 and carry a Boundless CR BEFORE the additional 150 HP buff, and Gal won't be too far behind with greater mobility and built-in reps. Toss in a logi friend and the Assaults are now into Sentinel territory. Even if a suit decides to give up a primary tank slot for a non-HP mod, the additional secondary tank slot makes compensating for it that much easier, making the decision less meaningful. Cut the slot. Make choices matter.
Yeah, the Amarr is a special one...
But you don't have enought PG/CPU to have those HP...
And assault which has a lot of Armor HP, doesn't move very well...
You say that's like a heavy
But (personnaly) a heavy with a light weapon, it's easy to kill
It doesn't move
It doesn't straff
Easier to kill than 600HP with a kitkat
Ho yeah Love you Rattati!
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|
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Boot Booter
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
764
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 20:30:00 -
[521] - Quote
@ killer, again....
Yes I use min assault in every PC. Sometimes I switch to my logi to drop links and whatnot. The min assault is my only proto suit (15 mil sp in weaponry lol )
I belive this fit (the one quoted above) outclasses the Caldari 'assault scout' even before the HP buff. It has much higher regen and more eHP (much more if you try to match cal scouts base regen). Plus with the bonus change for cal scouts it's unlikely we will see many 450 shield ones running amok because they will get slaughtered by other scouts. Which is good.
I'm warning you guys, the HP buff might be over the top. Really the last thing I want to be is OP or FOTM, considering how long I've stuck with my suit, through thick and thin (mostly thin...).
I know everyone hates dual tanking cause its dual tanking and all, but here's a potential pub stomping min assault fit, including the potential HP buff..
~470 shield @ 40 hp/s with delay of 3.5/6
~400 armor @ 10 hp/s
Sprint speed around 8.3 m/s and proto weapon.
That's pretty scarey. Certainly outclasses the proto min commando.
What happened to the repair tool glow?
Why won't CCP answer?
Conspiracy?
|
Harpyja
Legio DXIV
2137
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 20:34:00 -
[522] - Quote
I don't like the current proposal.
"By His light, and His will"- The Scriptures, 12:32
|
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4709
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 20:38:00 -
[523] - Quote
The Eristic wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:We would rather cut the ehp buff than the additional slots, we feel it underlines the versatility aspect of the assault, spec for the situation. An 8th slot doesn't underline versatility, it removes the necessity of choice in suit building, further enables, nay, encourages dual tanking and destroys the lore-appropriate racial alignments the 7-slot reworking was intended to give us. You have to make people make choices, or they'll go the easy route every time. See every FotM ever for evidence. There WILL be 1200+ HP Proto Assaults stomping Pubs (which, btw, will further marginalize Laser weaponry). The Amarr at 3-5 will be able hit 1300 and carry a Boundless CR BEFORE the additional 150 HP buff, and Gal won't be too far behind with greater mobility and built-in reps. Toss in a logi friend and the Assaults are now into Sentinel territory. Even if a suit decides to give up a primary tank slot for a non-HP mod, the additional secondary tank slot makes compensating for it that much easier, making the decision less meaningful. Cut the slot. Make choices matter.
Surely trading a slot for 150 ehp is less tanking in theory, seeing as one slot is at max 135 hp. And those who don't want hp can pick something else, so more choice, right?
If assault become the new FOTM, we will be monitoring the situation, but right now it's everything but the assault. Reiterating, that the ehp is completely up for discussion, let's wait for some protofit FOTM examples that make all other suits useless
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
|
|
Boot Booter
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
764
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 20:39:00 -
[524] - Quote
@ assault changes
In short, I like the slot count and capacity changes. Don't like the HP buff on top.
Would settle for hp and capacity buff w/ 7 high/low slots at proto.
What happened to the repair tool glow?
Why won't CCP answer?
Conspiracy?
|
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11215
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 20:40:00 -
[525] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:The Eristic wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:We would rather cut the ehp buff than the additional slots, we feel it underlines the versatility aspect of the assault, spec for the situation. An 8th slot doesn't underline versatility, it removes the necessity of choice in suit building, further enables, nay, encourages dual tanking and destroys the lore-appropriate racial alignments the 7-slot reworking was intended to give us. You have to make people make choices, or they'll go the easy route every time. See every FotM ever for evidence. There WILL be 1200+ HP Proto Assaults stomping Pubs (which, btw, will further marginalize Laser weaponry). The Amarr at 3-5 will be able hit 1300 and carry a Boundless CR BEFORE the additional 150 HP buff, and Gal won't be too far behind with greater mobility and built-in reps. Toss in a logi friend and the Assaults are now into Sentinel territory. Even if a suit decides to give up a primary tank slot for a non-HP mod, the additional secondary tank slot makes compensating for it that much easier, making the decision less meaningful. Cut the slot. Make choices matter. Surely trading a slot for 150 ehp is less tanking in theory, seeing as one slot is at max 135 hp. And those who don't want hp can pick something else, so more choice, right? If assault become the new FOTM, we will be monitoring the situation, but right now it's everything but the assault. Reiterating, that the ehp is completely up for discussion, let's wait for some protofit FOTM examples that make all other suits useless
148.5HP*
DETAILS RATTATI
DETAILS!
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
|
MEDICO RITARDATO
Intara Direct Action
Caldari State
125
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 20:41:00 -
[526] - Quote
So amarr sentinell 1/4 but caldari 3/2... Seriously? Why???
Ass ault caldari need more pg! Pls add 3 or 4 pg
If the age is on the clock you are ready for the c**k
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Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
82
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 20:41:00 -
[527] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Surely trading a slot for 150 ehp is less tanking in theory, seeing as one slot is at max 135 hp. And those who don't want hp can pick something else, so more choice, right? If assault become the new FOTM, we will be monitoring the situation, but right now it's everything but the assault. Reiterating, that the ehp is completely up for discussion, let's wait for some protofit FOTM examples that make all other suits useless
For the moment, my calda assault is much better (for assault role) than the calda scout-assault.
Thank you Rattati
Ho yeah Love you Rattati!
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Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
82
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 20:43:00 -
[528] - Quote
Boot Booter wrote:@ killer, again.... Yes I use min assault in every PC. Sometimes I switch to my logi to drop links and whatnot. The min assault is my only proto suit (15 mil sp in weaponry lol ) I belive this fit (the one quoted above) outclasses the Caldari 'assault scout' even before the HP buff. It has much higher regen and more eHP (much more if you try to match cal scouts base regen). Plus with the bonus change for cal scouts it's unlikely we will see many 450 shield ones running amok because they will get slaughtered by other scouts. Which is good. I'm warning you guys, the HP buff might be over the top. Really the last thing I want to be is OP or FOTM, considering how long I've stuck with my suit, through thick and thin (mostly thin...). I know everyone hates dual tanking cause its dual tanking and all, but here's a potential pub stomping min assault fit, including the potential HP buff.. ~470 shield @ 40 hp/s with delay of 3.5/6 ~400 armor @ 10 hp/s Sprint speed around 8.3 m/s and proto weapon. That's pretty scarey. Certainly outclasses the proto min commando.
Hey again
That wasn't me who has written your "quote"
Your minma looks very cool, My calda looks very cool too, but only shield tanking, for me, the +55HP for armor is perfect, it makes a bit HP armor for Calda, nice
Ho yeah Love you Rattati!
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11215
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 20:43:00 -
[529] - Quote
I say keep the HP buff and slot buff, tweak after data has been gathered.
That's the beauty of rapid releases, you don't get stuck for months with a broken game.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Boot Booter
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
764
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 20:51:00 -
[530] - Quote
Killer's Coys
Hey again [:p wrote:That wasn't me who has written your "quote" Your minma looks very cool, My calda looks very cool too, but only shield tanking, for me, the +55HP for armor is perfect, it makes a bit HP armor for Calda, nice
Yes. I know. I used the quoted text as a reference, that's all. .
Sorry for cluttering the thread. I will leave... For now.
What happened to the repair tool glow?
Why won't CCP answer?
Conspiracy?
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Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
82
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 20:52:00 -
[531] - Quote
Boot Booter wrote:Killer's Coys
Hey again [:p wrote:That wasn't me who has written your "quote" Your minma looks very cool, My calda looks very cool too, but only shield tanking, for me, the +55HP for armor is perfect, it makes a bit HP armor for Calda, nice Yes. I know. I used the quoted text as a reference, that's all. . Sorry for cluttering the thread. I will leave... For now.
That's just because off the eHP buff ?
I think we must try with it, but for me, that's a good thing.
I hope see you against me a time
Ho yeah Love you Rattati!
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Harpyja
Legio DXIV
2137
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 20:54:00 -
[532] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Harpyja wrote:Amarr assault needs more PG. Assault G/1-SeriesAssault A/1-SeriesThough Amarr uses a ScR and Gallente uses an AR, they are still their racial rifles so in essence, the fits are exactly identical. Notice that the Gallente has no trouble fitting that, while Amarr can't. Just for the fact that the ScR requires 10 more PG, Amarr should have 10 (or at least 5) more PG over Gallente, not 2. Then add a little extra because Amarr should be the best armor tanker so extra PG allows slightly better armor modules (complex plate instead of enhanced plate or complex ferroscales instead of enhanced plates, for example). Few things: SCR costs 7 more PG over Duvolle, not 10.
Amarr are getting 5 more PG than Gallente
Amarr aren't "better" armor tankers, they're a type of armor tanker
Amarr - Brick Gallente - Fast and regenerative
First of all, I don't look at proto because the majority can't afford proto weapons and suits.
Advanced ScR - 16 PG
Advanced AR - 6 PG
10 PG difference
Assault A/1-Series - 49 PG
Assault G/1-Series - 47 PG
2 PG difference
Right there you can tell that the Gallente assault will have a much easier time fitting stuff than the Amarr assault.
Sure, they have differing armor tanks.
Complex Armor Plate - 12 PG
Complex Armor Repairer - 11 PG
So even if Gallente should go for reps while Amarr goes for plates, Amarr still needs more PG because plates cost more PG. And technically Amarr are the better armor tankers, given that they should have more lows than Gallente to put armor mods in. So although the current proposal gives them equal slots, Amarr should be able to fit slightly better armor modules while Gallente can fit slightly better utility.
"By His light, and His will"- The Scriptures, 12:32
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JRleo jr
Xer Cloud Consortium
95
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 20:59:00 -
[533] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:I say keep the HP buff and slot buff, tweak after data has been gathered. That's the beauty of rapid releases, you don't get stuck for months with a broken game.
I agree, see my proto cal assault fit on proto fits, it has 90 hp over scout, scout has more speed, stamina, ewar, ewar range, less hitbox, less delay.
Max level brony.
Pink fluffy unicorns
http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos
Best song evar.
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Floyd20 Azizora
Forty-Nine Fedayeen
Minmatar Republic
67
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 21:00:00 -
[534] - Quote
Harpyja wrote:
First of all, I don't look at proto because the majority can't afford proto weapons and suits.
Advanced ScR - 16 PG
Advanced AR - 6 PG
10 PG difference
Assault A/1-Series - 49 PG
Assault G/1-Series - 47 PG
2 PG difference
Right there you can tell that the Gallente assault will have a much easier time fitting stuff than the Amarr assault.
Sure, they have differing armor tanks.
Complex Armor Plate - 12 PG
Complex Armor Repairer - 11 PG
So even if Gallente should go for reps while Amarr goes for plates, Amarr still needs more PG because plates cost more PG. And technically Amarr are the better armor tankers, given that they should have more lows than Gallente to put armor mods in. So although the current proposal gives them equal slots, Amarr should be able to fit slightly better armor modules while Gallente can fit slightly better utility.
Why are you trying to throw on complex armor plates and reps on advanced suits? |
Harpyja
Legio DXIV
2138
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 21:12:00 -
[535] - Quote
Floyd20 Azizora wrote:Harpyja wrote:
First of all, I don't look at proto because the majority can't afford proto weapons and suits.
Advanced ScR - 16 PG
Advanced AR - 6 PG
10 PG difference
Assault A/1-Series - 49 PG
Assault G/1-Series - 47 PG
2 PG difference
Right there you can tell that the Gallente assault will have a much easier time fitting stuff than the Amarr assault.
Sure, they have differing armor tanks.
Complex Armor Plate - 12 PG
Complex Armor Repairer - 11 PG
So even if Gallente should go for reps while Amarr goes for plates, Amarr still needs more PG because plates cost more PG. And technically Amarr are the better armor tankers, given that they should have more lows than Gallente to put armor mods in. So although the current proposal gives them equal slots, Amarr should be able to fit slightly better armor modules while Gallente can fit slightly better utility. Why are you trying to throw on complex armor plates and reps on advanced suits?
Because I believe that with max fitting skills, you should be able to have some proto mods. I also only have standard grenades equipped instead of advanced, so there's some further justification.
I actually believe that every suit, including standard, should be able to fit all or most of it's main tank with complex modules, then everything else of the tier equivalent to the suit. I doubt that will break anything as higher tiers will offer more complex modules to be fit; it should actually give players with less SP and ISK a better fighting chance against a full proto suit.
That's how I feel the reward and progression of the skill tree should behave. Anyone can fit all standard modules onto a standard suit, and then you can upgrade some to advanced and then later proto as you level up your skills. Otherwise, I think it's very uninteresting and unrewarding if you need max skills to fit all standard on a standard suit
"By His light, and His will"- The Scriptures, 12:32
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Floyd20 Azizora
Forty-Nine Fedayeen
Minmatar Republic
67
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 21:16:00 -
[536] - Quote
Harpyja wrote:Floyd20 Azizora wrote:Harpyja wrote:
First of all, I don't look at proto because the majority can't afford proto weapons and suits.
Advanced ScR - 16 PG
Advanced AR - 6 PG
10 PG difference
Assault A/1-Series - 49 PG
Assault G/1-Series - 47 PG
2 PG difference
Right there you can tell that the Gallente assault will have a much easier time fitting stuff than the Amarr assault.
Sure, they have differing armor tanks.
Complex Armor Plate - 12 PG
Complex Armor Repairer - 11 PG
So even if Gallente should go for reps while Amarr goes for plates, Amarr still needs more PG because plates cost more PG. And technically Amarr are the better armor tankers, given that they should have more lows than Gallente to put armor mods in. So although the current proposal gives them equal slots, Amarr should be able to fit slightly better armor modules while Gallente can fit slightly better utility. Why are you trying to throw on complex armor plates and reps on advanced suits? Because I believe that with max fitting skills, you should be able to have some proto mods. I also only have standard grenades equipped instead of advanced, so there's some further justification. I actually believe that every suit, including standard, should be able to fit all or most of it's main tank with complex modules, then everything else of the tier equivalent to the suit. I doubt that will break anything as higher tiers will offer more complex modules to be fit; it should actually give players with less SP and ISK a better fighting chance against a full proto suit. That's how I feel the reward and progression of the skill tree should behave. Anyone can fit all standard modules onto a standard suit, and then you can upgrade some to advanced and then later proto as you level up your skills. Otherwise, I think it's very uninteresting and unrewarding if you need max skills to fit all standard on a standard suit
That don't happen much on any other suit bar heavies(and they are being hit hard to stop all proto adv suits) plus it makes lower grade modules much less worthwhile if you can just fit good amounts of proto gear to your standard suit. |
Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
82
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 21:21:00 -
[537] - Quote
Don't care about Amarr
Those changes a really good.
I'm so excited, I hope this hotfix to come soon !
Ho yeah Love you Rattati!
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Harpyja
Legio DXIV
2139
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 21:26:00 -
[538] - Quote
Floyd20 Azizora wrote:Harpyja wrote:Floyd20 Azizora wrote:Harpyja wrote:
First of all, I don't look at proto because the majority can't afford proto weapons and suits.
Advanced ScR - 16 PG
Advanced AR - 6 PG
10 PG difference
Assault A/1-Series - 49 PG
Assault G/1-Series - 47 PG
2 PG difference
Right there you can tell that the Gallente assault will have a much easier time fitting stuff than the Amarr assault.
Sure, they have differing armor tanks.
Complex Armor Plate - 12 PG
Complex Armor Repairer - 11 PG
So even if Gallente should go for reps while Amarr goes for plates, Amarr still needs more PG because plates cost more PG. And technically Amarr are the better armor tankers, given that they should have more lows than Gallente to put armor mods in. So although the current proposal gives them equal slots, Amarr should be able to fit slightly better armor modules while Gallente can fit slightly better utility. Why are you trying to throw on complex armor plates and reps on advanced suits? Because I believe that with max fitting skills, you should be able to have some proto mods. I also only have standard grenades equipped instead of advanced, so there's some further justification. I actually believe that every suit, including standard, should be able to fit all or most of it's main tank with complex modules, then everything else of the tier equivalent to the suit. I doubt that will break anything as higher tiers will offer more complex modules to be fit; it should actually give players with less SP and ISK a better fighting chance against a full proto suit. That's how I feel the reward and progression of the skill tree should behave. Anyone can fit all standard modules onto a standard suit, and then you can upgrade some to advanced and then later proto as you level up your skills. Otherwise, I think it's very uninteresting and unrewarding if you need max skills to fit all standard on a standard suit That don't happen much on any other suit bar heavies(and they are being hit hard to stop all proto adv suits) plus it makes lower grade modules much less worthwhile if you can just fit good amounts of proto gear to your standard suit.
I'm not saying that all proto ADV suits should be possible. I'm just saying that at standard and advanced tiers, you should have the ability to choose to upgrade some of your modules up to proto while leaving the others at the tier equivalent to the dropsuit tier. I shouldn't need max skills to be able to fit all advanced on my advanced suit. I should start out with being able to fit all advanced and then invest SP and be able to upgrade some of my modules to proto.
"By His light, and His will"- The Scriptures, 12:32
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S-PANZA
Expert Intervention
Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 21:32:00 -
[539] - Quote
On the Cal Pro Sentinnel I can only fit 3 complex dam mods and a Pro Assault Forge and i run out of PG at lvl 5 enginneering and maxed core skills. The nerf in Cal Sent PG seems drastic.
On another note Cal Sent Pro should be 4/1 , its a shield tanker. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
11450
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 21:33:00 -
[540] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:We would rather cut the ehp buff than the additional slots, we feel it underlines the versatility aspect of the assault, spec for the situation.
I think eHP should have higher priority than slots since it applies to all tiers, while the extra slots are only applied to specific tiers. Also more slots lead to higher cost of fittings.
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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Harpyja
Legio DXIV
2139
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 21:44:00 -
[541] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:We would rather cut the ehp buff than the additional slots, we feel it underlines the versatility aspect of the assault, spec for the situation. I think eHP should have higher priority than slots since it applies to all tiers, while the extra slots are only applied to specific tiers. Also more slots lead to higher cost of fittings.
And also decreased CPU/PG per slot if there isn't an appropriate buff to CPU/PG.
"By His light, and His will"- The Scriptures, 12:32
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11218
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 21:45:00 -
[542] - Quote
I believe HP buff should take higher priority.
Assaults NEED higher HP, their HP difference from scouts is too low.
If you just give them an extra slot, I'm pretty sure that 99% of the time, it will just be used for more HP to increase the gap.
When you are always seen and can't see the enemy, you better bring much better shields and armor.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
83
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 21:45:00 -
[543] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:We would rather cut the ehp buff than the additional slots, we feel it underlines the versatility aspect of the assault, spec for the situation. I think eHP should have higher priority than slots since it applies to all tiers, while the extra slots are only applied to specific tiers. Also more slots lead to higher cost of fittings.
I don't know what are the problems...
Rattati has gived to assault :
- more PG/CPU
- extra slot for ADV and PRO
- 150eHP buff (armor and shield)
- grenade fitting bonus
For Delta :
- better race bonus
So... I dont know... For me, the work is perfect for assault.
Thanks Rattati, and good work
Ho yeah Love you Rattati!
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Stefan Stahl
Seituoda Taskforce Command
705
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 21:57:00 -
[544] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:We would rather cut the ehp buff than the additional slots, we feel it underlines the versatility aspect of the assault, spec for the situation. I think eHP should have higher priority than slots since it applies to all tiers, while the extra slots are only applied to specific tiers. Also more slots lead to higher cost of fittings. I agree. The hp buff deminishes the tier progression which is exactly what the game needs. The new slot progression increases the power progression to the detriment of 98% of the players. Not me, but i take pitty in those that get will stomped.
I don't think matchmaking is ever going to improve the situation. We're too few already. |
S-PANZA
Expert Intervention
Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 21:59:00 -
[545] - Quote
It's been brought up in other posts.
Proto suits should be able to fit proto modules and weapons if your skilled to the max.
Adv suits should be able to fit adv modules and weapons but should have to make choices as to Pro or Adv gear if SP is maxed.
CPU/PG should reflect this. Aside from racial bonuses, the reason for skilling into proto suit is for the additional CPU/PG and slots so you can fit proto gear. |
John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
League of Infamy
3826
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 22:15:00 -
[546] - Quote
Stefan Stahl wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:We would rather cut the ehp buff than the additional slots, we feel it underlines the versatility aspect of the assault, spec for the situation. I think eHP should have higher priority than slots since it applies to all tiers, while the extra slots are only applied to specific tiers. Also more slots lead to higher cost of fittings. I agree. The hp buff deminishes the tier progression which is exactly what the game needs. The new slot progression increases the power progression to the detriment of 98% of the players. Not me, but i take pitty in those that get will stomped. I don't think matchmaking is ever going to improve the situation. We're too few already.
On the surface I agree with Rattati's concept that a slot is a better choice than a base stat buff.
However, if it only applies to the higher tier suits then it's a bad idea because we really shouldn't be increasing the disparity between proto and everyone else!
I guess you could argue that 150 might encroach on the Commando's, maybe drop it to 100 and adjust as needed?
Floyd20 Azizora wrote:
Why are you trying to throw on complex armor plates and reps on advanced suits?
Uh... because that has always been the most cost-effective fitting for virtually every class of suit at every point in the history of Dust? (ADV suit with ADV weapon and proto modules) Do you even Dust, bro?
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
11452
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 22:18:00 -
[547] - Quote
Killer's Coys wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:We would rather cut the ehp buff than the additional slots, we feel it underlines the versatility aspect of the assault, spec for the situation. I think eHP should have higher priority than slots since it applies to all tiers, while the extra slots are only applied to specific tiers. Also more slots lead to higher cost of fittings. I don't know what are the problems... Rattati has gived to assault : - more PG/CPU - extra slot for ADV and PRO - 150eHP buff (armor and shield) - grenade fitting bonus For Delta : - better race bonus So... I dont know... For me, the work is perfect for assault. Thanks Rattati, and good work
The problem is that an extra slot is unnecessary when assaults are already getting +150 HP, and basically turns assaults into heavies. My earlier post illustrates this point with some HP calculations.
Anyway, if either the 8th slot, or the HP had to go, I say that the HP should definitely stay while the 8th slot should definitely go. The slot raises the gap between standard and proto even higher (bad), while the HP buff would effect all tiers equally (which is good).
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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Meee One
Hello Kitty Logistics
938
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 22:22:00 -
[548] - Quote
I'm assuming logistics will be getting a speed and regen buff in order to survive.
I mean if assaults are getting 8 slots including a sidearm,i would like to be able to run away from that.
This is following scout logic of less armor = more speed and regen.
Ya know since logistics has about 30 more eHP than their racial scout,yet are slow speed and regen wise.
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Dj grammer
New Age Empire.
General Tso's Alliance
287
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 22:24:00 -
[549] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:I don't think assaults should get an 8th slot, given they're getting a +150 HP buff. Keep the HP buff, but do not add the new module slot at proto. Keep the advanced tier slot though, closing the gap between proto and lower tier is a good thing; would really like to see an extra module slot at standard as well. 5/6/7 slot progression please. Tried this Amarr assault fit on protofits (link here http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/759/5678 ). I added 150 to the armor, and factored the skills. Shields: 120 x 1.25 (shield skill bonus) = 150 Armor: 240 + 150 = 390 x 1.25 (armor skill bonus) = 487.5 Total eHP with skills before mods: 637.5 Obviously these calculations may not be correct because I don't know how the +150 HP will be distributed between shields and armor. Now add some plates. For the sake of being conservative with HP estimates, lets only use ferroscales. 4 complex ferroscales and 1 armor repairer. Complex ferroscales are 75, and with skills they are each 82.5. 82.5 x 4 is 330, add that to our previous total, and now the eHP is 967.5; this is a conservative estimate using low HP plates (ferroscales), and already its clear that the assault will be very tanky. A simpler way to illustrate the point: without the +150 HP, the fit I linked would have 780 eHP, now just add 150 HP, and now you have 930 eHP. Whatever methodology you use to calculate it, its too much. Once again I remind that this is just a conservative estimate, and regular plates would lead to even higher eHP numbers.  This is all with 7 module slots, not 8 yet. An 8th would be too much Assaults will become heavies with an 8th. No extra slot at proto please.
Try this fit.
why ccp?
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Boot Booter
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
768
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 22:43:00 -
[550] - Quote
^^^^ I agree with what KAGEHOSHI says above ^^^^
What happened to the repair tool glow?
Why won't CCP answer?
Conspiracy?
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Varoth Drac
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
183
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 22:48:00 -
[551] - Quote
Meee One wrote:I'm assuming logistics will be getting a speed and regen buff in order to survive.
I mean if assaults are getting 8 slots including a sidearm,i would like to be able to run away from that.
This is following scout logic of less armor = more speed and regen.
Ya know since logistics has about 30 more eHP than their racial scout,yet are slow speed and regen wise.
The second logis get buffed we will be simply perpetuating power creep with an ongoing cycle of buffing.
Since uprising began logis have been the most powerful suits. Yes they have been slightly nerfed but not much.
Scouts and heavies have been buffed to be on par with logis. Ok, maybe CCP went a bit far but the alpha hotfix has brought scouts in line, Charlie scout changes should also help. The increased hmg heat buildup should help balance heavies in Charlie.
Assaults need a buff. They have been under performing all through uprising. Balancing scouts and heavies has highlighted this further.
Logis are the power benchmark. If assault buffs necessitate logi buffs they have gone too far.
For constructive feedback I will need to look at theoretical fits. |
Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
88
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 22:54:00 -
[552] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Killer's Coys wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:We would rather cut the ehp buff than the additional slots, we feel it underlines the versatility aspect of the assault, spec for the situation. I think eHP should have higher priority than slots since it applies to all tiers, while the extra slots are only applied to specific tiers. Also more slots lead to higher cost of fittings. I don't know what are the problems... Rattati has gived to assault : - more PG/CPU - extra slot for ADV and PRO - 150eHP buff (armor and shield) - grenade fitting bonus For Delta : - better race bonus So... I dont know... For me, the work is perfect for assault. Thanks Rattati, and good work The problem is that an extra slot is unnecessary when assaults are already getting +150 HP, and basically turns assaults into heavies. My earlier post illustrates this point with some HP calculations. All the things you listed are great, but not the 8th slot at proto. Anyway, if either the 8th slot, or the HP had to go, I say that the HP should definitely stay while the 8th slot should definitely go. The slot raises the gap between standard and proto even higher (bad), while the HP buff would effect all tiers equally (which is good).
I'll say the same thing I've said a few hours ago
Someone who fit a lot of armor plates, doesn't move fast
It's like a heavy, but a heavy with a light weapon, that's very easy to kill
Ho yeah Love you Rattati!
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BlazeXYZ
xCosmic Voidx
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
59
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 23:19:00 -
[553] - Quote
The caldari assault will have more shield than my minmatar heavy. Whopping 744 Am I right?
The Blazing Intellect Machine
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4711
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 23:21:00 -
[554] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:I don't think assaults should get an 8th slot, given they're getting a +150 HP buff. Keep the HP buff, but do not add the new module slot at proto. Keep the advanced tier slot though, closing the gap between proto and lower tier is a good thing; would really like to see an extra module slot at standard as well. 5/6/7 slot progression please. Tried this Amarr assault fit on protofits (link here http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/759/5678 ). I added 150 to the armor, and factored the skills. Shields: 120 x 1.25 (shield skill bonus) = 150 Armor: 240 + 150 = 390 x 1.25 (armor skill bonus) = 487.5 Total eHP with skills before mods: 637.5 Obviously these calculations may not be correct because I don't know how the +150 HP will be distributed between shields and armor. Now add some plates. For the sake of being conservative with HP estimates, lets only use ferroscales. 4 complex ferroscales and 1 armor repairer. Complex ferroscales are 75, and with skills they are each 82.5. 82.5 x 4 is 330, add that to our previous total, and now the eHP is 967.5; this is a conservative estimate using low HP plates (ferroscales), and already its clear that the assault will be very tanky. A simpler way to illustrate the point: without the +150 HP, the fit I linked would have 780 eHP, now just add 150 HP, and now you have 930 eHP. Whatever methodology you use to calculate it, its too much. Once again I remind that this is just a conservative estimate, and regular plates would lead to even higher eHP numbers. This is all with 7 module slots, not 8 yet. An 8th would be too much Assaults will become heavies with an 8th. No extra slot at proto please.
An Amarr Commando with 3 ferros is 1100 ehp and a 5 ferro gk logi is at 750 ehp.
Seems like 950 for a stacked ferro Amarr Assault is right between them as intended.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
12157
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 23:27:00 -
[555] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:I don't think assaults should get an 8th slot, given they're getting a +150 HP buff. Keep the HP buff, but do not add the new module slot at proto. Keep the advanced tier slot though, closing the gap between proto and lower tier is a good thing; would really like to see an extra module slot at standard as well. 5/6/7 slot progression please. Tried this Amarr assault fit on protofits (link here http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/759/5678 ). I added 150 to the armor, and factored the skills. Shields: 120 x 1.25 (shield skill bonus) = 150 Armor: 240 + 150 = 390 x 1.25 (armor skill bonus) = 487.5 Total eHP with skills before mods: 637.5 Obviously these calculations may not be correct because I don't know how the +150 HP will be distributed between shields and armor. Now add some plates. For the sake of being conservative with HP estimates, lets only use ferroscales. 4 complex ferroscales and 1 armor repairer. Complex ferroscales are 75, and with skills they are each 82.5. 82.5 x 4 is 330, add that to our previous total, and now the eHP is 967.5; this is a conservative estimate using low HP plates (ferroscales), and already its clear that the assault will be very tanky. A simpler way to illustrate the point: without the +150 HP, the fit I linked would have 780 eHP, now just add 150 HP, and now you have 930 eHP. Whatever methodology you use to calculate it, its too much. Once again I remind that this is just a conservative estimate, and regular plates would lead to even higher eHP numbers. This is all with 7 module slots, not 8 yet. An 8th would be too much Assaults will become heavies with an 8th. No extra slot at proto please. An Amarr Commando with 3 ferros is 1100 ehp and a 5 ferro gk logi is at 750 ehp. Seems like 950 for a stacked ferro Amarr Assault is right between them as intended.
I pity to poor fool who runs 3 plates on an Amarr Commando.....
I'm kind of concerned at the moment..... EHP values just seems to be growing higher and higher.... slot distributions grow ever more plentiful...... however I looks forwards to the changes as always....might log back in for Charlie.
"Your Faith stands as a shield for the Faithful, and you are one of His Angels." - Soren Tyrhannos to Templar Ouryon
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JRleo jr
Xer Cloud Consortium
96
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 23:30:00 -
[556] - Quote
BlazeXYZ wrote:The caldari assault will have more shield than my minmatar heavy. Whopping 744 Am I right?
Nnnooo?
And you have dps, 2 light weapons and reload speed.
Max level brony.
Pink fluffy unicorns
http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos
Best song evar.
|
The dark cloud
The Rainbow Effect
3680
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 23:30:00 -
[557] - Quote
Didnt saw that you changed the slot layout on caldari sentinels. 3 high and 2 low? Seems a bit weird but on the other hand i can achieve a recharge delay of about 1.64s with 2 complex regulators and a 0.47s depleted delay. |
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4712
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 23:30:00 -
[558] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:I don't think assaults should get an 8th slot, given they're getting a +150 HP buff. Keep the HP buff, but do not add the new module slot at proto. Keep the advanced tier slot though, closing the gap between proto and lower tier is a good thing; would really like to see an extra module slot at standard as well. 5/6/7 slot progression please. Tried this Amarr assault fit on protofits (link here http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/759/5678 ). I added 150 to the armor, and factored the skills. Shields: 120 x 1.25 (shield skill bonus) = 150 Armor: 240 + 150 = 390 x 1.25 (armor skill bonus) = 487.5 Total eHP with skills before mods: 637.5 Obviously these calculations may not be correct because I don't know how the +150 HP will be distributed between shields and armor. Now add some plates. For the sake of being conservative with HP estimates, lets only use ferroscales. 4 complex ferroscales and 1 armor repairer. Complex ferroscales are 75, and with skills they are each 82.5. 82.5 x 4 is 330, add that to our previous total, and now the eHP is 967.5; this is a conservative estimate using low HP plates (ferroscales), and already its clear that the assault will be very tanky. A simpler way to illustrate the point: without the +150 HP, the fit I linked would have 780 eHP, now just add 150 HP, and now you have 930 eHP. Whatever methodology you use to calculate it, its too much. Once again I remind that this is just a conservative estimate, and regular plates would lead to even higher eHP numbers. This is all with 7 module slots, not 8 yet. An 8th would be too much Assaults will become heavies with an 8th. No extra slot at proto please. An Amarr Commando with 3 ferros is 1100 ehp and a 5 ferro gk logi is at 750 ehp. Seems like 950 for a stacked ferro Amarr Assault is right between them as intended. I pity to poor fool who runs 3 plates on an Amarr Commando..... I'm kind of concerned at the moment..... EHP values just seems to be growing higher and higher.... slot distributions grow ever more plentiful...... however I looks forwards to the changes as always....might log back in for Charlie.
People are playing the maximum ehp game, regardless of viability. While assaults can't get more than sentinels, then there can not be ehp power creep.
However, we may need to intervene with normal plate fitting increases, the raw ehp stacking is not what we want for Dust.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
|
|
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4712
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Posted - 2014.07.23 23:31:00 -
[559] - Quote
The dark cloud wrote:Didnt saw that you changed the slot layout on caldari sentinels. 3 high and 2 low? Seems a bit weird but on the other hand i can achieve a recharge delay of about 1.64s with 2 complex regulators and a 0.47s depleted delay.
I agree, shield tanking is not only about high slots (read extender stacking), and if someone wants some reps, then a reactive, or rep module plus a regulator is nifty.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
|
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The dark cloud
The Rainbow Effect
3680
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 23:33:00 -
[560] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:The dark cloud wrote:Didnt saw that you changed the slot layout on caldari sentinels. 3 high and 2 low? Seems a bit weird but on the other hand i can achieve a recharge delay of about 1.64s with 2 complex regulators and a 0.47s depleted delay. I agree, shield tanking is not only about high slots (read extender stacking), and if someone wants some reps, then a reactive, or rep module plus a regulator is nifty.
However i still want my my reptool variant that gives me shields instead of armor. |
|
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JRleo jr
Xer Cloud Consortium
96
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 23:34:00 -
[561] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:True Adamance wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:I don't think assaults should get an 8th slot, given they're getting a +150 HP buff. Keep the HP buff, but do not add the new module slot at proto. Keep the advanced tier slot though, closing the gap between proto and lower tier is a good thing; would really like to see an extra module slot at standard as well. 5/6/7 slot progression please. Tried this Amarr assault fit on protofits (link here http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/759/5678 ). I added 150 to the armor, and factored the skills. Shields: 120 x 1.25 (shield skill bonus) = 150 Armor: 240 + 150 = 390 x 1.25 (armor skill bonus) = 487.5 Total eHP with skills before mods: 637.5 Obviously these calculations may not be correct because I don't know how the +150 HP will be distributed between shields and armor. Now add some plates. For the sake of being conservative with HP estimates, lets only use ferroscales. 4 complex ferroscales and 1 armor repairer. Complex ferroscales are 75, and with skills they are each 82.5. 82.5 x 4 is 330, add that to our previous total, and now the eHP is 967.5; this is a conservative estimate using low HP plates (ferroscales), and already its clear that the assault will be very tanky. A simpler way to illustrate the point: without the +150 HP, the fit I linked would have 780 eHP, now just add 150 HP, and now you have 930 eHP. Whatever methodology you use to calculate it, its too much. Once again I remind that this is just a conservative estimate, and regular plates would lead to even higher eHP numbers. This is all with 7 module slots, not 8 yet. An 8th would be too much Assaults will become heavies with an 8th. No extra slot at proto please. An Amarr Commando with 3 ferros is 1100 ehp and a 5 ferro gk logi is at 750 ehp. Seems like 950 for a stacked ferro Amarr Assault is right between them as intended. I pity to poor fool who runs 3 plates on an Amarr Commando..... I'm kind of concerned at the moment..... EHP values just seems to be growing higher and higher.... slot distributions grow ever more plentiful...... however I looks forwards to the changes as always....might log back in for Charlie. People are playing the maximum ehp game, regardless of viability. While assaults can't get more than sentinels, then there can not be ehp power creep. However, we may need to intervene with normal plate fitting increases, the raw ehp stacking is not what we want for Dust.
Well then, please buff other mods, maube shield regs again, I said MAYBE, buff rechargers and energizers, increase armor plate pg?
Buff kincats bonus so it's worth using, etc etc, just ideas.
Max level brony.
Pink fluffy unicorns
http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos
Best song evar.
|
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
486
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 23:36:00 -
[562] - Quote
Rattati you've really out done yourself this time. The CPU buff to caldari will help a whole lot. Now I can kite armor tankers and maintain a range advantage by swapping out the CPU mod for a kincat. I'll have enough shield recharge to regen tank effectively, and enough buffer to move around a bit more instead of hugging scraps of cover. All in all, the new cal assault is a hard hitting, long range, hit n run beast with a shield tank strong enough to function without logi support for extended periods of time. The fit I posted earlier is IMO, perfect in way possible in the traditional caldari doctrines.
This game is looking a lot more like it belongs in the eve universe. Thanks for you and your teams hard work. |
JRleo jr
Xer Cloud Consortium
98
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 23:38:00 -
[563] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:Rattati you've really out done yourself this time. The CPU buff to caldari will help a whole lot. Now I can kite armor tankers and maintain a range advantage by swapping out the CPU mod for a kincat. I'll have enough shield recharge to regen tank effectively, and enough buffer to move around a bit more instead of hugging scraps of cover. All in all, the new cal assault is a hard hitting, long range, hit n run beast with a shield tank strong enough to function without logi support for extended periods of time. The fit I posted earlier is IMO, perfect in way possible in the traditional caldari doctrines.
This game is looking a lot more like it belongs in the eve universe. Thanks for you and your teams hard work.
My 3 lows will have complex shield regs.
I'd prefer if the base recharge rate of the cal assault was raised from 30 to 35 or 45 to make nergizers more useful.
Max level brony.
Pink fluffy unicorns
http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos
Best song evar.
|
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
3213
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 23:41:00 -
[564] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:
I'm kind of concerned at the moment..... EHP values just seems to be growing higher and higher...
MISSING
Name: Breach Shotgun
Last Seen: Chromosome
Shoot scout with yes...
- Ripley Riley
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4718
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 23:42:00 -
[565] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:True Adamance wrote:
I'm kind of concerned at the moment..... EHP values just seems to be growing higher and higher...
MISSINGName: Breach Shotgun Last Seen: Chromosome
sidearms are Delta, as I write this I realize they are Lights , ok still in Delta
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
|
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JRleo jr
Xer Cloud Consortium
98
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 23:42:00 -
[566] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:True Adamance wrote:
I'm kind of concerned at the moment..... EHP values just seems to be growing higher and higher...
MISSINGName: Breach Shotgun Last Seen: Chromosome
Name: Shotgun
Last seen: earlier today
Accomplices: Scouts
Max level brony.
Pink fluffy unicorns
http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos
Best song evar.
|
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
3213
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 23:42:00 -
[567] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:True Adamance wrote:
I'm kind of concerned at the moment..... EHP values just seems to be growing higher and higher...
MISSINGName: Breach Shotgun Last Seen: Chromosome sidearms are Delta
Would make for an excellent sidearm. o7
Shoot scout with yes...
- Ripley Riley
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
486
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 23:43:00 -
[568] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:True Adamance wrote:
I'm kind of concerned at the moment..... EHP values just seems to be growing higher and higher...
MISSINGName: Breach Shotgun Last Seen: Chromosome sidearms are Delta Would make for an excellent sidearm. o7
It's called a bolt pistol lol |
JRleo jr
Xer Cloud Consortium
98
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 23:45:00 -
[569] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:True Adamance wrote:
I'm kind of concerned at the moment..... EHP values just seems to be growing higher and higher...
MISSINGName: Breach Shotgun Last Seen: Chromosome sidearms are Delta Would make for an excellent sidearm. o7 It's called a bolt pistol lol
http://youtu.be/FopyRHHlt3M
Max level brony.
Pink fluffy unicorns
http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos
Best song evar.
|
S-PANZA
Expert Intervention
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 23:58:00 -
[570] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:The dark cloud wrote:Didnt saw that you changed the slot layout on caldari sentinels. 3 high and 2 low? Seems a bit weird but on the other hand i can achieve a recharge delay of about 1.64s with 2 complex regulators and a 0.47s depleted delay. I agree, shield tanking is not only about high slots (read extender stacking), and if someone wants some reps, then a reactive, or rep module plus a regulator is nifty.
But if your as slow as a heavy getting to cover, youll want that extra shielding because all the regulating wont help when shields are gone and armor is melted. |
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
11453
|
Posted - 2014.07.24 00:15:00 -
[571] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:True Adamance wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:I don't think assaults should get an 8th slot, given they're getting a +150 HP buff. Keep the HP buff, but do not add the new module slot at proto. Keep the advanced tier slot though, closing the gap between proto and lower tier is a good thing; would really like to see an extra module slot at standard as well. 5/6/7 slot progression please. Tried this Amarr assault fit on protofits (link here http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/759/5678 ). I added 150 to the armor, and factored the skills. Shields: 120 x 1.25 (shield skill bonus) = 150 Armor: 240 + 150 = 390 x 1.25 (armor skill bonus) = 487.5 Total eHP with skills before mods: 637.5 Obviously these calculations may not be correct because I don't know how the +150 HP will be distributed between shields and armor. Now add some plates. For the sake of being conservative with HP estimates, lets only use ferroscales. 4 complex ferroscales and 1 armor repairer. Complex ferroscales are 75, and with skills they are each 82.5. 82.5 x 4 is 330, add that to our previous total, and now the eHP is 967.5; this is a conservative estimate using low HP plates (ferroscales), and already its clear that the assault will be very tanky. A simpler way to illustrate the point: without the +150 HP, the fit I linked would have 780 eHP, now just add 150 HP, and now you have 930 eHP. Whatever methodology you use to calculate it, its too much. Once again I remind that this is just a conservative estimate, and regular plates would lead to even higher eHP numbers. This is all with 7 module slots, not 8 yet. An 8th would be too much Assaults will become heavies with an 8th. No extra slot at proto please. An Amarr Commando with 3 ferros is 1100 ehp and a 5 ferro gk logi is at 750 ehp. Seems like 950 for a stacked ferro Amarr Assault is right between them as intended. I pity to poor fool who runs 3 plates on an Amarr Commando..... I'm kind of concerned at the moment..... EHP values just seems to be growing higher and higher.... slot distributions grow ever more plentiful...... however I looks forwards to the changes as always....might log back in for Charlie. People are playing the maximum ehp game, regardless of viability. While assaults can't get more than sentinels, then there can not be ehp power creep. However, we may need to intervene with normal plate fitting increases, the raw ehp stacking is not what we want for Dust.
Your commando example replying to my earlier comment I don't think was a fair example given that I did not use all low slots for plates in my assault example, the assault had an armor repairer, while the commando did not.
I wasn't playing the maximum eHP game, I used an armor repairer (so all low slots weren't for HP tanking) and only ferroscales for a conservative estimate on a viable fit (a fit I would actually use). Since we're playing max eHP, I will join in. No weapons, more equipment, only HP mods.
I believe you stated before that the 150 HP for Amarr would be distributed 100 to armor, and 50 to shields.
Shields: 120 + 50 = 170 x 1.25 (shield skill bonus) = 212.5
Armor: 240 + 100 = 340 x 1.25 (armor skill bonus) = 425
Total eHP with skills before mods: 637.5
Now add:
+3 complex shield extenders. With the skill bonus, each extender is 72.6, all 3 total is 217.8.
+5 complex armor plate. With skill bonuses, each is 148.5, all total is 594
Add it all up, you get 1,449.3
Here is the protofits link to make sure it all fits.
Now, going to do the same maximum HP test on a Amarr commando ak.0. Just like with the assault example, I will fill it to the brim with complex plates and complex extenders. No armor repairers, or anything else.
It all adds up to 1368.1, the commando now has a lesser HP ceiling than the assault.
Here is the protofits link.
Anyway, if either the 8th slot, or the HP had to go, I say that the HP should definitely stay while the 8th slot should definitely go. The slot raises the gap between standard and proto even higher (bad), while the HP buff would effect all tiers equally (good).
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
|
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
487
|
Posted - 2014.07.24 00:48:00 -
[572] - Quote
JRleo jr wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:Rattati you've really out done yourself this time. The CPU buff to caldari will help a whole lot. Now I can kite armor tankers and maintain a range advantage by swapping out the CPU mod for a kincat. I'll have enough shield recharge to regen tank effectively, and enough buffer to move around a bit more instead of hugging scraps of cover. All in all, the new cal assault is a hard hitting, long range, hit n run beast with a shield tank strong enough to function without logi support for extended periods of time. The fit I posted earlier is IMO, perfect in way possible in the traditional caldari doctrines.
This game is looking a lot more like it belongs in the eve universe. Thanks for you and your teams hard work. My 3 lows will have complex shield regs. I'd prefer if the base recharge rate of the cal assault was raised from 30 to 35 or 45 to make nergizers more useful.
At 40 hp/a base, you'd have 115 hp/s with two complex energizers. I'm all for it but not sure if it'd be necessary. Don't want to become op you know lol
|
JRleo jr
Xer Cloud Consortium
100
|
Posted - 2014.07.24 00:50:00 -
[573] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:JRleo jr wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:Rattati you've really out done yourself this time. The CPU buff to caldari will help a whole lot. Now I can kite armor tankers and maintain a range advantage by swapping out the CPU mod for a kincat. I'll have enough shield recharge to regen tank effectively, and enough buffer to move around a bit more instead of hugging scraps of cover. All in all, the new cal assault is a hard hitting, long range, hit n run beast with a shield tank strong enough to function without logi support for extended periods of time. The fit I posted earlier is IMO, perfect in way possible in the traditional caldari doctrines.
This game is looking a lot more like it belongs in the eve universe. Thanks for you and your teams hard work. My 3 lows will have complex shield regs. I'd prefer if the base recharge rate of the cal assault was raised from 30 to 35 or 45 to make nergizers more useful. At 40 hp/a base, you'd have 115 hp/s with two complex energizers. I'm all for it but not sure if it'd be necessary. Don't want to become op you know lol
Aaaand your point is? You would have 400 shields....and still, so what? I would only use one...
Max level brony.
Pink fluffy unicorns
http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos
Best song evar.
|
True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
12161
|
Posted - 2014.07.24 00:53:00 -
[574] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:True Adamance wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:I don't think assaults should get an 8th slot, given they're getting a +150 HP buff. Keep the HP buff, but do not add the new module slot at proto. Keep the advanced tier slot though, closing the gap between proto and lower tier is a good thing; would really like to see an extra module slot at standard as well. 5/6/7 slot progression please. Tried this Amarr assault fit on protofits (link here http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/759/5678 ). I added 150 to the armor, and factored the skills. Shields: 120 x 1.25 (shield skill bonus) = 150 Armor: 240 + 150 = 390 x 1.25 (armor skill bonus) = 487.5 Total eHP with skills before mods: 637.5 Obviously these calculations may not be correct because I don't know how the +150 HP will be distributed between shields and armor. Now add some plates. For the sake of being conservative with HP estimates, lets only use ferroscales. 4 complex ferroscales and 1 armor repairer. Complex ferroscales are 75, and with skills they are each 82.5. 82.5 x 4 is 330, add that to our previous total, and now the eHP is 967.5; this is a conservative estimate using low HP plates (ferroscales), and already its clear that the assault will be very tanky. A simpler way to illustrate the point: without the +150 HP, the fit I linked would have 780 eHP, now just add 150 HP, and now you have 930 eHP. Whatever methodology you use to calculate it, its too much. Once again I remind that this is just a conservative estimate, and regular plates would lead to even higher eHP numbers. This is all with 7 module slots, not 8 yet. An 8th would be too much Assaults will become heavies with an 8th. No extra slot at proto please. An Amarr Commando with 3 ferros is 1100 ehp and a 5 ferro gk logi is at 750 ehp. Seems like 950 for a stacked ferro Amarr Assault is right between them as intended. I pity to poor fool who runs 3 plates on an Amarr Commando..... I'm kind of concerned at the moment..... EHP values just seems to be growing higher and higher.... slot distributions grow ever more plentiful...... however I looks forwards to the changes as always....might log back in for Charlie. People are playing the maximum ehp game, regardless of viability. While assaults can't get more than sentinels, then there can not be ehp power creep. However, we may need to intervene with normal plate fitting increases, the raw ehp stacking is not what we want for Dust.
That sounds like a very interesting idea.
As you know in EVE plates and Extenders are CPU and PG intensive, often times more so the resistance plating and certain other modules like Tackle and Damage Controls.......
It could be possible to limit the amount players HP stack by increasing the fittings costs of HP modules and decreasing the costs of utility modules such as scan gear, resistance plating if it ever makes and appearance, biotics, hacking, etc.
I could certainly see Ferroscale and Reacitve becoming more viable if the number of plates plates armour tankers were able to stack was limited in conjunction with lesser PG and CPU costs that standard plates.
Consider them if you would the Nano Fibre, Steel, and Rolled Tungsten of Dust armour plates.
"Your Faith stands as a shield for the Faithful, and you are one of His Angels." - Soren Tyrhannos to Templar Ouryon
|
CommanderBolt
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
1400
|
Posted - 2014.07.24 01:26:00 -
[575] - Quote
CCP Rattati - I would like to know why you are removing one of the Caldari Sentinel high slots and adding a low slot? The Caldari Sentinel already struggles to compete with armour sentinels as it is and now removing a high slot will only further reduce my shield capabilities.
The low slot is only good for regulators which adding a second one wont really be of any value. Are you basically telling us to speed tank or heaven forbid dual tank with armour?
CCP Rattati - I understand you want to balance the game but this is yet another time where I feel your balancing efforts are going well beyond the realm of small balance changes and are instead forcing us to do certain things. I do not like this.
This also means now that the Caldari sentinel will share the same slot layout as the Minmatar Sentinel. This is baffling to say the least.
I also dislike how you are changing one of the core roles I speced into when picking the Gallente Scout (Long Range passive scans yet weaker than Caldari precision passive scans)
Just to add, both of those changes make little sense in any sort of lore perspective:
A - Caldari are meant to be the master shield tankers. 3 Highs in exchange for an extra low makes no sense and I feel only pushes the Caldari sentinel to more armour.
B. The Gallente are meant to have the best scanner / sensor tech in New Eden.
It would be nice to hear thoughts on this.
-=#[ Gastun's Forge ]#=-
MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
"I'm wasting away here" - "Get me back into zee fight!
|
Ralden Caster
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
72
|
Posted - 2014.07.24 02:15:00 -
[576] - Quote
Killer's Coys wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:
Caldari highest number of high slots
Minmatar equal number of highs and lows, preferring highs
No... Why do you want to do that ?? Ok, Caldari has the "most-shield-tanking-fit", but it doesN'T NEED to have 5 hight slots... for 2 low... The Minmatar is faster, and with our caldari (yes, I'm caldari assault) we can have a catalyser to become as fast as the minmatar is... AND have an armor repair + armor plate // dampener + reactive plate.... The worst thing is for the Basic and the Advanced one.... 1 low slot ? Are you serious ? IF you want to keep those slots, GIVE a PASSIVE ARMOR REPAIR to Caldari Assaults ! We need repair, you want to remove a low slot, give an armor repair... On my basic, I've 6hp/s and a bit armor... So..... I'll have to remove and haven't any repair ? Joke please.... I love your work, you have made a lot of good things, but that... that's NOT what should be the Caldari Assault... NOT Or, if you want not to change for the basic one, do the same thing like the Gallente STA : 3/1 ADV : 3/2 PRO : 4/3 Please, Rattati, change your table, don't do that... don't do that...
No.
Caldari are not meant to be armor tankers and should take the penalization of losing a low if they want reps. Without its defining built-in reps, the Gallente assault would be lost to obscurity to the Amarr assault.
"AHAHAHAHAA, I TELEPORTED BREAD!!!"
-Soldier 2014
|
S-PANZA
Expert Intervention
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2014.07.24 02:36:00 -
[577] - Quote
CommanderBolt wrote:CCP Rattati - I would like to know why you are removing one of the Caldari Sentinel high slots and adding a low slot? The Caldari Sentinel already struggles to compete with armour sentinels as it is and now removing a high slot will only further reduce my shield capabilities.
The low slot is only good for regulators which adding a second one wont really be of any value. Are you basically telling us to speed tank or heaven forbid dual tank with armour?
CCP Rattati - I understand you want to balance the game but this is yet another time where I feel your balancing efforts are going well beyond the realm of small balance changes and are instead forcing us to do certain things. I do not like this.
This also means now that the Caldari sentinel will share the same slot layout as the Minmatar Sentinel. This is baffling to say the least.
I also dislike how you are changing one of the core roles I speced into when picking the Gallente Scout (Long Range passive scans yet weaker than Caldari precision passive scans)
Just to add, both of those changes make little sense in any sort of lore perspective:
A - Caldari are meant to be the master shield tankers. 3 Highs in exchange for an extra low makes no sense and I feel only pushes the Caldari sentinel to more armour.
B. The Gallente are meant to have the best scanner / sensor tech in New Eden.
It would be nice to hear thoughts on this.
^This ...
and try and make a Pro Cal Heavy Sent forger with 3 comp dam mods,PRO Ish Assault Forge with either PRO sidearm + ADV AV grenades or ADV sidearm + PRO AV grenades...
I'll tell you what will happen youll have two empty slots and not enough PG on a PROTO Heavy Sent suit that one of its roles for AV specialization is being undermined.
I agree with the 4/1 slot allocation but more important is that the Pro Cal Heavy Sent cant fullfill its roles with the proposed PG reduction at either 3/2 or 4/1. |
SponkSponkSponk
The Southern Legion
Final Resolution.
941
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Posted - 2014.07.24 03:37:00 -
[578] - Quote
S-PANZA wrote:and try and make a Pro Cal Heavy Sent forger with 3 comp dam mods,PRO Ish Assault Forge with either PRO sidearm + ADV AV grenades or ADV sidearm + PRO AV grenades...
I'll tell you what will happen youll have two empty slots and not enough PG on a PROTO Heavy Sent suit that one of its roles for AV specialization is being undermined.
I agree with the 4/1 slot allocation but more important is that the Pro Cal Heavy Sent cant fullfill its roles with the proposed PG reduction at either 3/2 or 4/1.
Perhaps you should adjust your fit, then.
Dust/Eve transfers
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S-PANZA
Expert Intervention
Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2014.07.24 03:50:00 -
[579] - Quote
SponkSponkSponk wrote:S-PANZA wrote:and try and make a Pro Cal Heavy Sent forger with 3 comp dam mods,PRO Ish Assault Forge with either PRO sidearm + ADV AV grenades or ADV sidearm + PRO AV grenades...
I'll tell you what will happen youll have two empty slots and not enough PG on a PROTO Heavy Sent suit that one of its roles for AV specialization is being undermined.
I agree with the 4/1 slot allocation but more important is that the Pro Cal Heavy Sent cant fullfill its roles with the proposed PG reduction at either 3/2 or 4/1. Perhaps you should adjust your fit, then.
Theres not much room for adjusting , your not suggesting that a Proto suit shouldnt be able to handle half a fit consisting of proto and adv gear? |
Viktor Hadah Jr
Negative-Impact
Gentlemen's.Club
4709
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Posted - 2014.07.24 03:52:00 -
[580] - Quote
While your here CCP how about an update on that officer weapon event.
Earn 500Mil ISK(Updated twice)
Chat Channel: Vik PC
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
487
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Posted - 2014.07.24 04:05:00 -
[581] - Quote
JRleo jr wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:JRleo jr wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:Rattati you've really out done yourself this time. The CPU buff to caldari will help a whole lot. Now I can kite armor tankers and maintain a range advantage by swapping out the CPU mod for a kincat. I'll have enough shield recharge to regen tank effectively, and enough buffer to move around a bit more instead of hugging scraps of cover. All in all, the new cal assault is a hard hitting, long range, hit n run beast with a shield tank strong enough to function without logi support for extended periods of time. The fit I posted earlier is IMO, perfect in way possible in the traditional caldari doctrines.
This game is looking a lot more like it belongs in the eve universe. Thanks for you and your teams hard work. My 3 lows will have complex shield regs. I'd prefer if the base recharge rate of the cal assault was raised from 30 to 35 or 45 to make nergizers more useful. At 40 hp/a base, you'd have 115 hp/s with two complex energizers. I'm all for it but not sure if it'd be necessary. Don't want to become op you know lol Aaaand your point is? You would have 400 shields....and still, so what? I would only use one...
If you only care about having high eHP then it wouldn't apply to you lol |
JRleo jr
Xer Cloud Consortium
103
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Posted - 2014.07.24 04:13:00 -
[582] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:JRleo jr wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:JRleo jr wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:Rattati you've really out done yourself this time. The CPU buff to caldari will help a whole lot. Now I can kite armor tankers and maintain a range advantage by swapping out the CPU mod for a kincat. I'll have enough shield recharge to regen tank effectively, and enough buffer to move around a bit more instead of hugging scraps of cover. All in all, the new cal assault is a hard hitting, long range, hit n run beast with a shield tank strong enough to function without logi support for extended periods of time. The fit I posted earlier is IMO, perfect in way possible in the traditional caldari doctrines.
This game is looking a lot more like it belongs in the eve universe. Thanks for you and your teams hard work. My 3 lows will have complex shield regs. I'd prefer if the base recharge rate of the cal assault was raised from 30 to 35 or 45 to make nergizers more useful. At 40 hp/a base, you'd have 115 hp/s with two complex energizers. I'm all for it but not sure if it'd be necessary. Don't want to become op you know lol Aaaand your point is? You would have 400 shields....and still, so what? I would only use one... If you only care about having high eHP, then it wouldn't apply to you lol.
My point was having low hp and high regen is okay.
Max level brony.
Pink fluffy unicorns
http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos
Best song evar.
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SponkSponkSponk
The Southern Legion
Final Resolution.
941
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Posted - 2014.07.24 04:34:00 -
[583] - Quote
S-PANZA wrote:Theres not much room for adjusting , your not suggesting that a Proto suit shouldnt be able to handle half a fit consisting of proto and adv gear?
I'm saying that when you fit a proto variant of a weapon, with multiple powergrid-hungry modules, and keep adding proto stuff, you will run out of fitting sooner than you'd like.
So yes, I am suggesting that you cannot have everything you want on a suit, no matter how hard you believe in yourself.
tldr this is you.
Dust/Eve transfers
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S-PANZA
Expert Intervention
Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2014.07.24 04:39:00 -
[584] - Quote
S-PANZA wrote:SponkSponkSponk wrote:S-PANZA wrote:and try and make a Pro Cal Heavy Sent forger with 3 comp dam mods,PRO Ish Assault Forge with either PRO sidearm + ADV AV grenades or ADV sidearm + PRO AV grenades...
I'll tell you what will happen youll have two empty slots and not enough PG on a PROTO Heavy Sent suit that one of its roles for AV specialization is being undermined.
I agree with the 4/1 slot allocation but more important is that the Pro Cal Heavy Sent cant fullfill its roles with the proposed PG reduction at either 3/2 or 4/1. Perhaps you should adjust your fit, then. Theres not much room for adjusting , your not suggesting that a Proto suit shouldnt be able to handle half a fit consisting of proto and adv gear?
Perhaps an increase in the Heavy Weapon fitting PG bonus, in the likes of instead of 5% per lvl make it 10% per lvl. That would solve the problem and would further encourage Heavies to use Heavy weapons. |
S-PANZA
Expert Intervention
Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2014.07.24 04:49:00 -
[585] - Quote
SponkSponkSponk wrote:S-PANZA wrote:Theres not much room for adjusting , your not suggesting that a Proto suit shouldnt be able to handle half a fit consisting of proto and adv gear? I'm saying that when you fit a proto variant of a weapon, with multiple powergrid-hungry modules, and keep adding proto stuff, you will run out of fitting sooner than you'd like. So yes, I am suggesting that you cannot have everything you want on a suit, no matter how hard you believe in yourself. tldr this is you.
A major reason it costs 1,940,160 SP to get from adv to proto, over twice the SP than getting to adv, is to fit more proto and powergrid-hungry modules. Besides the gear I mentioned wasnt all proto and all slots hadnt been filled... still ran out of PG. |
Larry Desmo
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
54
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Posted - 2014.07.24 05:05:00 -
[586] - Quote
completely unnecessary, dont waste your time. get us those plasma cannon variants as well as our missing racial vehicles alon with all of the pre 1.7 vehicle modules, dont mess with the suits |
FabryX10
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
116
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Posted - 2014.07.24 05:41:00 -
[587] - Quote
Please stop crying. You are ridiculous. Surely, all scouts and heavies... I always played my UP Caldari assault or logi. Now let us try new layouts and ehp before crying. Never seen posts like these when scouts and heavies got OP BUFF. So, please stop crying.
@CCP Rattati: How to fix Assault's shields
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SponkSponkSponk
The Southern Legion
Final Resolution.
941
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Posted - 2014.07.24 05:59:00 -
[588] - Quote
S-PANZA wrote:A major reason it costs 1,940,160 SP to get from adv to proto, over twice the SP than getting to adv, is to fit more proto and powergrid-hungry modules. Besides the gear I mentioned wasnt all proto and all slots hadnt been filled... still ran out of PG.
More, not all.
If you can fit everything you want without compromise, then you're not making interesting choices, and that aspect of game design has failed.
Dust/Eve transfers
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Dj grammer
New Age Empire.
General Tso's Alliance
287
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Posted - 2014.07.24 06:33:00 -
[589] - Quote
FabryX10 wrote:Please stop crying. You are ridiculous. Surely, all scouts and heavies... I always played my UP Caldari assault or logi. Now let us try new layouts and ehp before crying. Never seen posts like these when scouts and heavies got OP BUFF. So, please stop crying.
TBH this guy is telling the truth. When scouts were bad people wanted to see them buff and that was as a whole community. The same went for heavies back in 1.2 when they were a joke. There was a time as a whole community we agreed that the Caldari Logistics back in 1.2 was literally breaking the game but keep in mind that it really wasn't the suit by itself.
Here we are now doing hotfixes with scouts and heavys buffed up and beefed up so much that all we see now in the burn zone is those two suits and if lucky a logi in the mix. Now people might call me hypocritical when in comes to not touching my logi class (Proto Min logi with all prototype equipment, maxxed out cores, armor, and shields). As I said before when it came to that, I would tell them try the class out first and then give some input. Sadly for the heavies and scouts trying to use that against me I am a Level 4 Gallente Sentinel and a level 3 Gallente Scout. Stop crying. I can stack 2 complex armor plates, 1 complex repper, 1 complex damage mod heavy, Boundless HMG (very high DPS and noticeable for spray and pray tactics), M209 Assault SMG, and a Core locus grenade and still have PG/CPU left over all on a G/1-series.
As for scouts, yea cloaking is not a big deal and having the fastest speed in the game is understandable. But having the quickest recovery in the game, 2 equipment slots (not a big deal but does raise questions), can either stack m shields like caldari or armor plates like gallente (An example would be a scout i barely killed. That gk.0 had 600 armor), stay under the radar, and etc... Why would you run the Assault class this class does it better and Logistics is just a guilty back then in 1.2.
But the minute that certain fits are being hit that are dominating and you skilled into it because that fit was dominating automatically voids anything you say in your defense. Heavies needed to be hit on a honest note. Yes they supposed to have globs of eHP and a gun to control crowds in small areas. But seeing an exponential increase in heavies on the battlefield is not good for the game. On top of that why run Commando when you can run a light weapon on a Heavy and have more eHP? Isn't that what the Commando class was meant for? Also keep in mind that on top of the huge eHP you also have damage resistance bonuses for your too.
Scouts you are the Assaults but should not be the Assaults. You are also pseudo-logistics when you really should not. Also keep in mind that passive scanning is on the rave now since it is 360, squad shared, and if you are running Caldari the only race to escape you is Gallente. But the minute something kills kills your OP fit that something is OP? Same with you too heavies.
Scouts and Heavies had their buffs. Now it is the Assaults turns to get theirs as well as tweaking and balancing the game further. This subsequently came down to moving slots around for not only Assaults for the buff but for every suit in the game. It is unfortunate that Sentials are receiving some debuffs as well as changes in the scouts bonus (the caldari bonus going to Amarr and Caldari getting a new bonus).
TL:DR? Assaults earned the well needed buff, heavies and scouts are receiving debuff after having a MAJOR buff, changes to bonuses, pg/cpu, slots and much more. If you skilled into Heavies and Scouts because it was the go to suit or the FOTM you're gonna have a bad time. In other words, DO NOT CRY FOR A FREAKING RESPEC!!!!
why ccp?
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RedPencil
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
58
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Posted - 2014.07.24 07:56:00 -
[590] - Quote
@ FabryX10, Dj grammer
AGREE, loud and clear !
Unfortunately, we are in social dilemma.
My opinion:
Assault slots progression - YES (Finally CCP give some love to us Assault)
150 eHP - N/A (Would like to see skill improve rather than buff eHP)
Question: Shell we revisit laser weapon heat build up since we tent to stack more and more armor?
Beware paper cut M[;..;]M
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SponkSponkSponk
The Southern Legion
Final Resolution.
941
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Posted - 2014.07.24 09:04:00 -
[591] - Quote
RedPencil wrote:
Question: Shell we revisit laser weapon heat build up since we tent to stack more and more armor?
IMO lasers are in a good place right now.
Dust/Eve transfers
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Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
89
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Posted - 2014.07.24 09:06:00 -
[592] - Quote
FabryX10 wrote:Please stop crying. You are ridiculous. Surely, all scouts and heavies... I always played my UP Caldari assault or logi. Now let us try new layouts and ehp before crying. Never seen posts like these when scouts and heavies got OP BUFF. So, please stop crying.
Maybe those people (who cry) don't want a new fit to be good, because rhey have choose a fit (scout) which was good to make the assault's job, but after the hotfix, the scouts will not be able to make assault's job, and they don't like it
Ho yeah Love you Rattati!
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Jack McReady
DUST University
Ivy League
1521
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Posted - 2014.07.24 11:48:00 -
[593] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Hi all, We want to have this formal discussion and get your input. We believe that the community has wanted to have some say on this issue for some time, and now that I am studying this data in detail, some things brush me the wrong way (or my OCD). Dropsuit Slot LayoutFirst table is Current, next table is proposed, and third tracks the difference in slots between the two. We don't need to do any changes to these layouts right now. However, with PG/CPU increases for the Assault class on the horizon, more based on a PG/CPU allotment per slot type, it would be the right timing to swap a high with a low in strategic places, or add missing slots. The new premise is a single matrix of racial high/low arrangements and then tactical choices of the other slots (EQ, SA, W, G). The proposed matrix is also intended to be more thematically in line with EVE Online racial slots. Amarr highest number of low slots Caldari highest number of high slots Gallente equal number of highs and lows, preferring lows Minmatar equal number of highs and lows, preferring highs Moving forward with few changes without changing the whole layout of every dropsuit is certainly on the table as well. The logi sidearm f.ex. There are other "anomalies" that I would love to discuss, such as STD and ADV logi racial differences. Of course if you see some errors, please let us know. Have at it and keep it civil and constructive!
if you really want to balance scouts, assaults and logis then you should limit them to certain weapons and in exchange give logis back their speed and hp compared to basic frames because there is no reason why the logis are the only suits that have such a bigi difference in terms of base hp/speed compared to the basic frame.
logi (logi is the least combat oriented suit) => 1xsidearm slot
scout => 2xsidearm slots
assault => 1x light, 1xsidearm
commando => 2xlight
heavy/sentintel => 1x heavy, 1x sidearm
that way, the suits that are less combat oriented than others have less firepower. the heavier and more frontline oriented the more firepower. |
BlazeXYZ
xCosmic Voidx
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
59
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Posted - 2014.07.24 13:27:00 -
[594] - Quote
Are we all set for Hotfix Charlie? Whens the release?
The Blazing Intellect Machine
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The dark cloud
The Rainbow Effect
3683
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Posted - 2014.07.24 14:07:00 -
[595] - Quote
You can still make decent caldari sentinel fits. I came up with this:
HMG CK.0
Charlie Ck.0 Forge
Ive "only" put 2 complex and 1 enhanced heavy damage mod on because of the stacking penalty which doesnt make a difference if you use a 4 or 5% module in the 3rd slot. |
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4729
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Posted - 2014.07.24 14:19:00 -
[596] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:True Adamance wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:I don't think assaults should get an 8th slot, given they're getting a +150 HP buff. Keep the HP buff, but do not add the new module slot at proto. Keep the advanced tier slot though, closing the gap between proto and lower tier is a good thing; would really like to see an extra module slot at standard as well. 5/6/7 slot progression please. Tried this Amarr assault fit on protofits (link here http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/759/5678 ). I added 150 to the armor, and factored the skills. Shields: 120 x 1.25 (shield skill bonus) = 150 Armor: 240 + 150 = 390 x 1.25 (armor skill bonus) = 487.5 Total eHP with skills before mods: 637.5 Obviously these calculations may not be correct because I don't know how the +150 HP will be distributed between shields and armor. Now add some plates. For the sake of being conservative with HP estimates, lets only use ferroscales. 4 complex ferroscales and 1 armor repairer. Complex ferroscales are 75, and with skills they are each 82.5. 82.5 x 4 is 330, add that to our previous total, and now the eHP is 967.5; this is a conservative estimate using low HP plates (ferroscales), and already its clear that the assault will be very tanky. A simpler way to illustrate the point: without the +150 HP, the fit I linked would have 780 eHP, now just add 150 HP, and now you have 930 eHP. Whatever methodology you use to calculate it, its too much. Once again I remind that this is just a conservative estimate, and regular plates would lead to even higher eHP numbers. This is all with 7 module slots, not 8 yet. An 8th would be too much Assaults will become heavies with an 8th. No extra slot at proto please. An Amarr Commando with 3 ferros is 1100 ehp and a 5 ferro gk logi is at 750 ehp. Seems like 950 for a stacked ferro Amarr Assault is right between them as intended. I pity to poor fool who runs 3 plates on an Amarr Commando..... I'm kind of concerned at the moment..... EHP values just seems to be growing higher and higher.... slot distributions grow ever more plentiful...... however I looks forwards to the changes as always....might log back in for Charlie. People are playing the maximum ehp game, regardless of viability. While assaults can't get more than sentinels, then there can not be ehp power creep. However, we may need to intervene with normal plate fitting increases, the raw ehp stacking is not what we want for Dust. Your commando example replying to my earlier comment I don't think was a fair example given that I did not use all low slots for plates in my assault example, my assault example had an armor repairer, while your commando example did not. I wasn't playing the maximum eHP game, I used an armor repairer (so all low slots weren't for HP tanking) and only ferroscales for a conservative estimate on a viable fit (a fit I would actually use). Since we're playing max eHP, I will join in. No weapons, more equipment, only HP mods. I believe you stated before that the 150 HP for Amarr would be distributed 100 to armor, and 50 to shields. Shields: 120 + 50 = 170 x 1.25 (shield skill bonus) = 212.5 Armor: 240 + 100 = 340 x 1.25 (armor skill bonus) = 425 Total eHP with skills before mods: 637.5 Now add: +3 complex shield extenders. With the skill bonus, each extender is 72.6, all 3 total is 217.8. +5 complex armor plate. With skill bonuses, each is 148.5, all total is 594 Add it all up, you get 1,449.3 Here is the protofits link to make sure it all fits. Now, going to do the same maximum HP test on a Amarr commando ak.0. Just like with the assault example, I will fill it to the brim with complex plates and complex extenders. No armor repairers, or anything else. It all adds up to 1368.1, the commando now has a lesser HP ceiling than the assault.Here is the protofits link. Anyway, if either the 8th slot, or the HP had to go, I say that the HP should definitely stay while the 8th slot should definitely go. The slot raises the gap between standard and proto even higher (bad), while the HP buff would effect all tiers equally (good). I would also be fine if the HP buff was less, like 100 perhaps.
The Amarr fit you shared can't fit a weapon. The commando can. Not exactly comparable nor viable. With a proto scrambler this AK max ehp fit is approx 20-30 PG over capacity.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
3232
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Posted - 2014.07.24 14:30:00 -
[597] - Quote
FabryX10 wrote:Please stop crying. You are ridiculous. Surely, all scouts and heavies... I always played my UP Caldari assault or logi. Now let us try new layouts and ehp before crying. Never seen posts like these when scouts and heavies got OP BUFF. So, please stop crying.
For the record, Scouts are by and large in favor of Assault buffs.
Shoot scout with yes...
- Ripley Riley
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11223
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Posted - 2014.07.24 14:32:00 -
[598] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:FabryX10 wrote:Please stop crying. You are ridiculous. Surely, all scouts and heavies... I always played my UP Caldari assault or logi. Now let us try new layouts and ehp before crying. Never seen posts like these when scouts and heavies got OP BUFF. So, please stop crying. For the record, Scouts are by and large in favor of Assault buffs.
Of course you are.
That means more targets that can't take 4 shotgun blasts
Or survive charged nova knives
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
3232
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Posted - 2014.07.24 14:35:00 -
[599] - Quote
Killer's Coys wrote:Maybe those people (who cry) don't want a new fit to be good, because rhey have choose a fit (scout) which was good to make the assault's job, but after the hotfix, the scouts will not be able to make assault's job, and they don't like it
Not sure who you speaking for, but you sure as sh!t aren't speaking for Scouts. It was our idea to nerf "assault lite" and we've backed the Assault buffs from the beginning. Get your facts straight.
Shoot scout with yes...
- Ripley Riley
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BL4CKST4R
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
2858
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Posted - 2014.07.24 14:48:00 -
[600] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:
The Amarr fit you shared can't fit a weapon. The commando can. Not exactly comparable nor viable. With a proto scrambler this AK max ehp fit is approx
The path is clear however, this overemphasis of eHP buffing has to be countered, simply by increasing PG of plates, it is obvious and imminent.
I don't think increasing the PG of plate is a good idea even with the PG increases my protofits Gallente assault cam barely fit a tank (compared to the other protofit tanks ive made) while also fitting a good weapon, I have to sacrifice a grenade and use a compact nanohive and this is with a enhanced shield extender and one enhanced + complex damage modifier and a advanced side arm. There is no way for my to fit all proto without spending a ton of SP into PG skills for my weapons.
Edit: the reason my other protofits can get a much better tank is because I am making rep tanked shield suits and pure armor tank amarrs. Vs a rep tanked Gallente, regardless it still struggles with PG a little bit.
supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
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Stefan Stahl
Seituoda Taskforce Command
706
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Posted - 2014.07.24 14:57:00 -
[601] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:[...] KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:No extra slot at proto please. [...] The path is clear however, this overemphasis of eHP buffing has to be countered, simply by increasing PG of plates, it is obvious and imminent. I've raised the point about tier progression a couple of times since you got into your current position, but you've never directly answered, so here's the question to shut me up:
Are new players supposed to have any chance of having fun at all when they are in a battle that one or more vets are in?
Answer this question and we can save ourselves quite some effort going forward. |
Floyd20 Azizora
Forty-Nine Fedayeen
Minmatar Republic
70
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Posted - 2014.07.24 14:59:00 -
[602] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:
The Amarr fit you shared can't fit a weapon. The commando can. Not exactly comparable nor viable. With a proto scrambler this AK max ehp fit is approx
The path is clear however, this overemphasis of eHP buffing has to be countered, simply by increasing PG of plates, it is obvious and imminent.
I don't think increasing the PG of plate is a good idea even with the PG increases my protofits Gallente assault cam barely fit a tank (compared to the other protofit tanks ive made) while also fitting a good weapon, I have to sacrifice a grenade and use a compact nanohive and this is with a enhanced shield extender and one enhanced + complex damage modifier and a advanced side arm. There is no way for my to fit all proto without spending a ton of SP into PG skills for my weapons. Edit: the reason my other protofits can get a much better tank is because I am making rep tanked shield suits and pure armor tank amarrs. Vs a rep tanked Gallente, regardless it still struggles with PG a little bit.
we need other modules assaults could use getting buffed(damage mods, kincats, stamina mods, codebreakers at a push). |
Boot Booter
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
773
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Posted - 2014.07.24 15:01:00 -
[603] - Quote
OK so I'm now thinking I like all the buffs for assaults; capacity, 8 slots at pro, and hp. With that said, I believe the capcity cost of all hp modules should be increased by quite a bit, maybe 150%. This will drive away dual tankers, fix the raw eHP stacking problem we have, diversify fits, create use for capacity modules, and make base HP a more stable balancing mechanic.
Also here's a shield tanked minmatar for Charlie with 8 slots
Charlie Assault mk.0
With the HP buff we are looking at about 470 shield and 300 armor. BUT if hp module capacity costs were increased I'd probably drop the extra extender for a damage mod. This would then be 400 shield and 300 armor. A very nice looking assault suit.
One last thing is I still think that minmatar assault shield delays are too long. They are currently 6/8 while even the minmatar logistics is 5/6. Even with 2 complex regulators my delay is still 2.5 seconds. I'd say drop the minmatar assault delay to 5/7. This will allow us to properly regulate our shields (2 complex regulators would then = 2 sec). We already suffer from a painfully slow shield regen of 25 and lower eHP.
What happened to the repair tool glow?
Why won't CCP answer?
Conspiracy?
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
489
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Posted - 2014.07.24 15:04:00 -
[604] - Quote
Stefan Stahl wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:[...] KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:No extra slot at proto please. [...] The path is clear however, this overemphasis of eHP buffing has to be countered, simply by increasing PG of plates, it is obvious and imminent. I've raised the point about tier progression a couple of times since you got into your current position, but you've never directly answered, so here's the question to shut me up: Are new players supposed to have any chance of having fun at all when they are in a battle that one or more vets are in? Answer this question and we can save ourselves quite some effort going forward.
could be solved by buffing basic suits. increased cpu/pg and extra slots at the cost of no bonuses on the suit.
gives noobs easy to train suits that can be buffer tanked easily. increasing noob survival rates without much incentive for vets to use them over bonused suits.
thats my thought anyways |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
489
|
Posted - 2014.07.24 15:07:00 -
[605] - Quote
Boot Booter wrote:OK so I'm now thinking I like all the buffs for assaults; capacity, 8 slots at pro, and hp. With that said, I believe the capcity cost of all hp modules should be increased by quite a bit, maybe 150%. This will drive away dual tankers, fix the raw eHP stacking problem we have, diversify fits, create use for capacity modules, and make base HP a more stable balancing mechanic. Also here's a shield tanked minmatar for Charlie with 8 slots Charlie Assault mk.0With the HP buff we are looking at about 470 shield and 300 armor. BUT if hp module capacity costs were increased I'd probably drop the extra extender for a damage mod. This would then be 400 shield and 300 armor. A very nice looking assault suit. One last thing is I still think that minmatar assault shield delays are too long. They are currently 6/8 while even the minmatar logistics is 5/6. Even with 2 complex regulators my delay is still 2.5 seconds. I'd say drop the minmatar assault delay to 5/7. This will allow us to properly regulate our shields (2 complex regulators would then = 2 sec). We already suffer from a painfully slow shield regen of 25 and lower eHP.
is that an error or did you really use a logi suit instead of the assault suit? |
JRleo jr
Xer Cloud Consortium
114
|
Posted - 2014.07.24 15:10:00 -
[606] - Quote
Boot Booter wrote:OK so I'm now thinking I like all the buffs for assaults; capacity, 8 slots at pro, and hp. With that said, I believe the capcity cost of all hp modules should be increased by quite a bit, maybe 150%. This will drive away dual tankers, fix the raw eHP stacking problem we have, diversify fits, create use for capacity modules, and make base HP a more stable balancing mechanic. Also here's a shield tanked minmatar for Charlie with 8 slots Charlie Assault mk.0With the HP buff we are looking at about 470 shield and 300 armor. BUT if hp module capacity costs were increased I'd probably drop the extra extender for a damage mod. This would then be 400 shield and 300 armor. A very CRAP looking assault suit. One last thing is I still think that minmatar assault shield delays are too long. They are currently 6/8 while even the minmatar logistics is 5/6. Even with 2 complex regulators my delay is still 2.5 seconds. I'd say drop the minmatar assault delay to 5/7. This will allow us to properly regulate our shields (2 complex regulators would then = 2 sec). We already suffer from a painfully slow shield regen of 25 and lower eHP.
The only hp problem is armor plates and armor suits using shield extenders...
Max level brony.
Pink fluffy unicorns
http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos
Best song evar.
|
Boot Booter
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
776
|
Posted - 2014.07.24 15:37:00 -
[607] - Quote
Sorry protofits must have bugged out. Should be assault now, I hope. I was checking the logi shield delay.
What happened to the repair tool glow?
Why won't CCP answer?
Conspiracy?
|
BlazeXYZ
xCosmic Voidx
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
60
|
Posted - 2014.07.24 15:42:00 -
[608] - Quote
Boot Booter wrote:OK so I'm now thinking I like all the buffs for assaults; capacity, 8 slots at pro, and hp. With that said, I believe the capcity cost of all hp modules should be increased by quite a bit, maybe 150%. This will drive away dual tankers, fix the raw eHP stacking problem we have, diversify fits, create use for capacity modules, and make base HP a more stable balancing mechanic. Also here's a shield tanked minmatar for Charlie with 8 slots Charlie Assault mk.0With the HP buff we are looking at about 470 shield and 300 armor. BUT if hp module capacity costs were increased I'd probably drop the extra extender for a damage mod. This would then be 400 shield and 300 armor. A very nice looking assault suit. One last thing is I still think that minmatar assault shield delays are too long. They are currently 6/8 while even the minmatar logistics is 5/6. Even with 2 complex regulators my delay is still 2.5 seconds. I'd say drop the minmatar assault delay to 5/7. This will allow us to properly regulate our shields (2 complex regulators would then = 2 sec). We already suffer from a painfully slow shield regen of 25 and lower eHP.
I agree on reducing the delay, so that you don't have to stack two regulators and replace one regulator for something else like a damp.
The Blazing Intellect Machine
|
Boot Booter
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
776
|
Posted - 2014.07.24 15:43:00 -
[609] - Quote
JRleo jr wrote:Boot Booter wrote:OK so I'm now thinking I like all the buffs for assaults; capacity, 8 slots at pro, and hp. With that said, I believe the capcity cost of all hp modules should be increased by quite a bit, maybe 150%. This will drive away dual tankers, fix the raw eHP stacking problem we have, diversify fits, create use for capacity modules, and make base HP a more stable balancing mechanic. Also here's a shield tanked minmatar for Charlie with 8 slots Charlie Assault mk.0With the HP buff we are looking at about 470 shield and 300 armor. BUT if hp module capacity costs were increased I'd probably drop the extra extender for a damage mod. This would then be 400 shield and 300 armor. A very CRAP looking assault suit. One last thing is I still think that minmatar assault shield delays are too long. They are currently 6/8 while even the minmatar logistics is 5/6. Even with 2 complex regulators my delay is still 2.5 seconds. I'd say drop the minmatar assault delay to 5/7. This will allow us to properly regulate our shields (2 complex regulators would then = 2 sec). We already suffer from a painfully slow shield regen of 25 and lower eHP. The only hp problem is armor plates and armor suits using shield extenders...
That's just not true. Shield suits dual tank as well. Plus increasing hp module capacity slightly benefits shields because capacity modules are in the low slots. Weapon damage might have to be a bit reduced as well...
And that suit is not crap. 700 eHP suit that completely regen shields in about 12 seconds running at 8.7 with a damage mod Combat rifle. You just don't know how to minmatar.
What happened to the repair tool glow?
Why won't CCP answer?
Conspiracy?
|
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11228
|
Posted - 2014.07.24 15:47:00 -
[610] - Quote
You know why armor tankers put on extenders?
Because there's nothing else to put there to benefit an assault suit.
It used to be damage mods, but those were nerfed hard.
Any attempt to move a module to high slots was met with a giant "Boo!" or "No!" followed by the reasoning "armor op".
So you have any problems with me putting on extenders? You can cram it.
Give me useful utility modules and I will gladly stop using extenders.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
|
|
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BL4CKST4R
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
2858
|
Posted - 2014.07.24 15:52:00 -
[611] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:You know why armor tankers put on extenders?
Because there's nothing else to put there to benefit an assault suit.
It used to be damage mods, but those were nerfed hard.
Any attempt to move a module to high slots was met with a giant "Boo!" or "No!" followed by the reasoning "armor op".
So you have any problems with me putting on extenders? You can cram it.
Give me useful utility modules and I will gladly stop using extenders.
I am worried about Charlie now since Rattati is thinking about increasing the PG of armor plates
supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
|
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
3233
|
Posted - 2014.07.24 15:57:00 -
[612] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:I am worried about Charlie now since Rattati is thinking about increasing the PG of armor plates
The most-used module in the entire game?
Encouraging folks to run ... something else?
Surely he wouldn't.
Shoot scout with yes...
- Ripley Riley
|
Boot Booter
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
776
|
Posted - 2014.07.24 15:58:00 -
[613] - Quote
Yeah the balance between shields and armor is pretty close IMHO (perhaps a slight edge to armor, shield energizer/recharger buff in the works though).
I think Rattati should just slowly increase all hp module capacity costs until fits diversify a bit.
What happened to the repair tool glow?
Why won't CCP answer?
Conspiracy?
|
BL4CKST4R
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
2858
|
Posted - 2014.07.24 16:02:00 -
[614] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:I am worried about Charlie now since Rattati is thinking about increasing the PG of armor plates The most-used module in the entire game? Encouraging folks to run ... something else? Surely he wouldn't dare.
Oh dear me forgive me that my suit depends on armor... and there isn't anything else to run for a armor based suit. its ok I can run with empty slots.
It worries me because I not only run armor suits but also shield suits, and so far my armor suits and shield suits are pretty toe to toe balanced. Increasing the PG to my armor suit would kill it while leaving my shield suit unhindered whatsoever.
This is my shield suit for charlie
http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5721
This is my armor suit for charlie
http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5720
And even if fitting costs was increased across the board fitting modules are in the lows so it hurts armor based suit more. Buffs to the secondary unused modules is much better than a nerf.
supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
|
Boot Booter
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
776
|
Posted - 2014.07.24 16:13:00 -
[615] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:I am worried about Charlie now since Rattati is thinking about increasing the PG of armor plates The most-used module in the entire game? Encouraging folks to run ... something else? Surely he wouldn't dare. Oh dear me forgive me that my suit depends on armor... and there isn't anything else to run for a armor based suit. its ok I can run with empty slots. It worries me because I not only run armor suits but also shield suits, and so far my armor suits and shield suits are pretty toe to toe balanced. Increasing the PG to my armor suit would kill it while leaving my shield suit unhindered whatsoever. This is my shield suit for charlie http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5721This is my armor suit for charlie http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5720And even if fitting costs was increased across the board fitting modules are in the lows so it hurts armor based suit more. Buffs to the secondary unused modules is much better than a nerf.
I agree. What if PG requirements were increased on plates, then all hp module capacity costs were increased, and PG mods were moved to high slots? .. Not entirely sure if that would work. Just a thought.
What happened to the repair tool glow?
Why won't CCP answer?
Conspiracy?
|
Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
89
|
Posted - 2014.07.24 16:15:00 -
[616] - Quote
Boot Booter wrote:Yeah the balance between shields and armor is pretty close IMHO (perhaps a slight edge to armor, shield energizer/recharger buff in the works though).
I think Rattati should just slowly increase all hp module capacity costs until fits diversify a bit.
Yes I agree with you, but I think (my thoughts) must not increase PG/CPU cost for the complex shield extender...
54/11 is already heavy I think.
My opinion is, to stop the dual-tankers, increase
- the CPU cost for shield extender
- the PG for armor plates
With it, "only" Caldari (and Minmatar) could put shield extender, and (for example) the caldari couldn't put armor plates
But if your thoughts were also increase the PG for shield xetender, it would be very difficult for a calda to fit 3-4 shield extenders
So, for me, that's what it whould be done.
Stop dual tankers, and make shiald or armor mod only for the specialized one..
For your previous post, I totaly agree with you, the Minma assault should have better shield regulator... Maybe with a suit bonus ? Why not ?
But not the HP/s regen, that's for the caldari
(for me, minma assault shield regu. : 5/7 => the same as the caldari, but minma has more armor, so more time to wait shield comes back after exhaustion)
Ho yeah Love you Rattati!
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11229
|
Posted - 2014.07.24 16:19:00 -
[617] - Quote
Killer's Coys wrote:Boot Booter wrote:Yeah the balance between shields and armor is pretty close IMHO (perhaps a slight edge to armor, shield energizer/recharger buff in the works though).
I think Rattati should just slowly increase all hp module capacity costs until fits diversify a bit. Yes I agree with you, but I think (my thoughts) must not increase PG/CPU cost for the complex shield extender... 54/11 is already heavy I think. My opinion is, to stop the dual-tankers, increase - the CPU cost for shield extender - the PG for armor plates With it, "only" Caldari (and Minmatar) could put shield extender, and (for example) the caldari couldn't put armor plates But if your thoughts were also increase the PG for shield xetender, it would be very difficult for a calda to fit 3-4 shield extenders So, for me, that's what it whould be done. Stop dual tankers, and make shiald or armor mod only for the specialized one.. For your previous post, I totaly agree with you, the Minma assault should have better shield regulator... Maybe with a suit bonus ? Why not ? But not the HP/s regen, that's for the caldari (for me, minma assault shield regu. : 5/7 => the same as the caldari, but minma has more armor, so more time to wait shield comes back after exhaustion)
As soon as I get something to put in high slots that doesn't suck.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
89
|
Posted - 2014.07.24 16:23:00 -
[618] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:
As soon as I get something to put in high slots that doesn't suck.
I really want range mods to hights slots
So many good mods on low slots...
Ho yeah Love you Rattati!
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Varoth Drac
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
186
|
Posted - 2014.07.24 17:11:00 -
[619] - Quote
I got the impression Ratatti was referring to plates, not reactive or ferroscale, for a pg increase. |
Syeven Reed
G0DS AM0NG MEN
780
|
Posted - 2014.07.24 17:33:00 -
[620] - Quote
Got a Mini theory craft.
Proto Minmatar Assault, based around shield regen, like they should be. And going off lvl5 fitting skills.
http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/480/5752
CPU 515.96
PG 60.43
Shield -- 310.88
Armor -- 168.75
eHP -- -- 479.63
Shield Recharge Rate - - - 72.07 HP/s
Shield Recharge Delay - - 2.46 s
Shield Dep. Rec. Delay - - 3.75 s
Now I think this is a pretty viable fit for Minmatar, low HP with fast regen. But you would need (with fitting skills at max) an extra 2 CPU to make it work...
If I missed the "Energizer fitting bonus post" ignore this. But a bonus to either energizers or that extra 2 cpu would be great!
Word Crimes
|
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
3956
|
Posted - 2014.07.24 17:56:00 -
[621] - Quote
If the Gallente and Amarr Sentinel slot layouts are swapped, then the Gallente Sentinel should probably have its self rep bonus increased to compensate. Even with a buff to damage modes a low slot is still worth more than a high slot to a Sentinel. A bit larger self rep bonus might make up the difference and is in line with Gallente favoring armor rep tanking while Amarr favor brick tanking.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
6414
|
Posted - 2014.07.24 18:00:00 -
[622] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:I got the impression Ratatti was referring to plates, not reactive or ferroscale, for a pg increase.
Until he confirms otherwise, I'm going to assume he meant -all- plates because they are -all- plates.
"The path is clear however, this overemphasis of eHP buffing has to be countered, simply by increasing PG of plates, it is obvious and imminent."
Even then, I'm not exactly for increasing the PG on plates under the pretense that "EHP tanking has to be countered" - if anything, it just goes to show me that utility modules need to be more appealing and that there is some severe problems with fitting diversity. If the counter to fitting armor plates and shield extenders is making armor plates harder to fit, then we've made a severe over-sight as to what can be done about the high slot problem in the first place.
So unless we want to combat that by making Armor Tankers really slow, melee focused or really slow, with half-decent scan precision and [redacted] range... You can't ask for Armor Tankers to fit anything besides shield/damage mods because the alternatives (Myrofibral and Precision Enhancers) just aren't worth their salt. You're likely never going to benefit from them because a) If you're in melee range, something is terribly wrong. b) If you're within that scan range, something is terribly wrong.
The only way you're going to stop someone from EHP tanking is if the utility modules in their off-slot (the slots that don't utilize their preferred tanking) are more appealing.
Useful Links
Aeon Amadi for CPM1
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11234
|
Posted - 2014.07.24 18:29:00 -
[623] - Quote
At LEAST increase myo stims to like 100% or something.
I am LOOKING for reasons to dump my shield extenders, seriously, please, give me a reason, any at all!
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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RedPencil
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
58
|
Posted - 2014.07.24 18:46:00 -
[624] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:You know why armor tankers put on extenders?
Because there's nothing else to put there to benefit an assault suit.
It used to be damage mods, but those were nerfed hard.
Any attempt to move a module to high slots was met with a giant "Boo!" or "No!" followed by the reasoning "armor op".
So you have any problems with me putting on extenders? You can cram it.
Give me useful utility modules and I will gladly stop using extenders.
Give me back my old damage mods stat.
Beware paper cut M[;..;]M
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Mobius Kaethis
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
1544
|
Posted - 2014.07.24 18:59:00 -
[625] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:At LEAST increase myo stims to like 100% or something.
I am LOOKING for reasons to dump my shield extenders, seriously, please, give me a reason, any at all!
Myo's are useless at this point. Raising them up to +100% would make melee combat not only hillarious but viable.
Fun > Realism
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11236
|
Posted - 2014.07.24 19:04:00 -
[626] - Quote
Mobius Kaethis wrote:Cat Merc wrote:At LEAST increase myo stims to like 100% or something.
I am LOOKING for reasons to dump my shield extenders, seriously, please, give me a reason, any at all! Myo's are useless at this point. Raising them up to +100% would make melee combat not only hillarious but viable.
I would totally fit a kincat on my Gal Assault, put three myo stims on and punch my enemies to death!
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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CommanderBolt
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
1404
|
Posted - 2014.07.24 19:08:00 -
[627] - Quote
Stefan Stahl wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:[...] KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:No extra slot at proto please. [...] The path is clear however, this overemphasis of eHP buffing has to be countered, simply by increasing PG of plates, it is obvious and imminent. I've raised the point about tier progression a couple of times since you got into your current position, but you've never directly answered, so here's the question to shut me up: Are new players supposed to have any chance of having fun at all when they are in a battle that one or more vets are in? Answer this question and we can save ourselves quite some effort going forward. P.S.: I know this is a loaded question. I get to have an opinion when I discuss my pastime hobby. I hope you get that I'm looking for your opinion as to where the ratio of power between new and old players is supposed to be.
The power gap is not the problem, this is part of the EVE universe. The PROBLEM is that there is no way to pick the risk level of battles, the problem is the matchmaker putting new solo characters up against 2 full proto squads the problem is that we as players have s**t tons of diversity in power, fitting, skill..... yet the game gives us very little in the way of options for the risk level / type of battles we want to be a part of.
The matchmaker is a good portion of the problem for sure.
-=#[ Gastun's Forge ]#=-
MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
"I'm wasting away here" - "Get me back into zee fight!
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Stefan Stahl
Seituoda Taskforce Command
706
|
Posted - 2014.07.24 19:32:00 -
[628] - Quote
CommanderBolt wrote:The matchmaker is a good portion of the problem for sure. True. It has been the problem since open beta started. However I don't think we can actually change that part of the problem with the existing user-base. There are only that many matches that can be made when ~4000 users are distributed over 3 battleserver locations. With that side of the issue set in stone I've been looking to discuss the other side of it, with admittedly limited success so far. |
Summ Dude
Direct Action Resources
430
|
Posted - 2014.07.24 19:40:00 -
[629] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:If the Gallente and Amarr Sentinel slot layouts are swapped, then the Gallente Sentinel should probably have its self rep bonus increased to compensate. Even with a buff to damage modes a low slot is still worth more than a high slot to a Sentinel. A bit larger self rep bonus might make up the difference and is in line with Gallente favoring armor rep tanking while Amarr favor brick tanking.
I completely agree with this. I was really hoping that in Delta all of the Gallente suits' passive armor reps could be revisited. 1 hp/s means virtually nothing to an armor-tanking Sentinel.
Not just a laymen, but the laymen.
Winn Summ and lose Summ.
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IAmDuncanIdaho II
R 0 N 1 N
628
|
Posted - 2014.07.24 19:55:00 -
[630] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:FabryX10 wrote:Please stop crying. You are ridiculous. Surely, all scouts and heavies... I always played my UP Caldari assault or logi. Now let us try new layouts and ehp before crying. Never seen posts like these when scouts and heavies got OP BUFF. So, please stop crying. For the record, Scouts are by and large in favor of Assault buffs.
@FabryX10 : We're crying for balance dood. Aren't you fed up with constant buff / nerf cycles? Ppl have SP all over the shop because of it. FotM should not be an acronym that exists any more.
You must learn honor, or you deserve to learn nothing at all.
~ Rivvy Dinari - Swordmaster of Ginaz
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11246
|
Posted - 2014.07.24 20:56:00 -
[631] - Quote
So, I'm confused.
Are Assaults getting the extra HP or not?
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
89
|
Posted - 2014.07.24 21:12:00 -
[632] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:So, I'm confused.
Are Assaults getting the extra HP or not?
Yes
Ho yeah Love you Rattati!
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FabryX10
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
120
|
Posted - 2014.07.25 05:17:00 -
[633] - Quote
IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:FabryX10 wrote:Please stop crying. You are ridiculous. Surely, all scouts and heavies... I always played my UP Caldari assault or logi. Now let us try new layouts and ehp before crying. Never seen posts like these when scouts and heavies got OP BUFF. So, please stop crying. For the record, Scouts are by and large in favor of Assault buffs. @FabryX10 : We're crying for balance dood. Aren't you fed up with constant buff / nerf cycles? Ppl have SP all over the shop because of it. FotM should not be an acronym that exists any more.
No, I'm not fed up because I never skilled a fotm dropsuit and now it's my turn. I'm the only assault survived. Let me try new stats and layout before and then you will cry. I think assault need this buff. It will not be OP.
@CCP Rattati: How to fix Assault's shields
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4796
|
Posted - 2014.07.25 12:21:00 -
[634] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:I got the impression Ratatti was referring to plates, not reactive or ferroscale, for a pg increase. Until he confirms otherwise, I'm going to assume he meant -all- plates because they are -all- plates. "The path is clear however, this overemphasis of eHP buffing has to be countered, simply by increasing PG of plates, it is obvious and imminent." Even then, I'm not exactly for increasing the PG on plates under the pretense that "EHP tanking has to be countered" - if anything, it just goes to show me that utility modules need to be more appealing and that there is some severe problems with fitting diversity. If the counter to fitting armor plates and shield extenders is making armor plates harder to fit, then we've made a severe over-sight as to what can be done about the high slot problem in the first place. So unless we want to combat that by making Armor Tankers really slow, melee focused or really slow, with half-decent scan precision and [redacted] range... You can't ask for Armor Tankers to fit anything besides shield/damage mods because the alternatives (Myrofibral and Precision Enhancers) just aren't worth their salt. You're likely never going to benefit from them because a) If you're in melee range, something is terribly wrong. b) If you're within that scan range, something is terribly wrong. The only way you're going to stop someone from EHP tanking is if the utility modules in their off-slot (the slots that don't utilize their preferred tanking) are more appealing.
We just buffed Reactives and Ferroscales, why would they be included? Brick tanking means maximum hp, and those two have less than half the hp as the Armor Plates.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11278
|
Posted - 2014.07.25 12:23:00 -
[635] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:I got the impression Ratatti was referring to plates, not reactive or ferroscale, for a pg increase. Until he confirms otherwise, I'm going to assume he meant -all- plates because they are -all- plates. "The path is clear however, this overemphasis of eHP buffing has to be countered, simply by increasing PG of plates, it is obvious and imminent." Even then, I'm not exactly for increasing the PG on plates under the pretense that "EHP tanking has to be countered" - if anything, it just goes to show me that utility modules need to be more appealing and that there is some severe problems with fitting diversity. If the counter to fitting armor plates and shield extenders is making armor plates harder to fit, then we've made a severe over-sight as to what can be done about the high slot problem in the first place. So unless we want to combat that by making Armor Tankers really slow, melee focused or really slow, with half-decent scan precision and [redacted] range... You can't ask for Armor Tankers to fit anything besides shield/damage mods because the alternatives (Myrofibral and Precision Enhancers) just aren't worth their salt. You're likely never going to benefit from them because a) If you're in melee range, something is terribly wrong. b) If you're within that scan range, something is terribly wrong. The only way you're going to stop someone from EHP tanking is if the utility modules in their off-slot (the slots that don't utilize their preferred tanking) are more appealing. We just buffed Reactives and Ferroscales, why would they be included? Brick tanking means maximum hp, and those two have less than half the hp as the Armor Plates.
Because even though you're at the helm, this is still CCP.
We expect stupid decisions until said otherwise.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
90
|
Posted - 2014.07.25 13:19:00 -
[636] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:I got the impression Ratatti was referring to plates, not reactive or ferroscale, for a pg increase. Until he confirms otherwise, I'm going to assume he meant -all- plates because they are -all- plates. "The path is clear however, this overemphasis of eHP buffing has to be countered, simply by increasing PG of plates, it is obvious and imminent." Even then, I'm not exactly for increasing the PG on plates under the pretense that "EHP tanking has to be countered" - if anything, it just goes to show me that utility modules need to be more appealing and that there is some severe problems with fitting diversity. If the counter to fitting armor plates and shield extenders is making armor plates harder to fit, then we've made a severe over-sight as to what can be done about the high slot problem in the first place. So unless we want to combat that by making Armor Tankers really slow, melee focused or really slow, with half-decent scan precision and [redacted] range... You can't ask for Armor Tankers to fit anything besides shield/damage mods because the alternatives (Myrofibral and Precision Enhancers) just aren't worth their salt. You're likely never going to benefit from them because a) If you're in melee range, something is terribly wrong. b) If you're within that scan range, something is terribly wrong. The only way you're going to stop someone from EHP tanking is if the utility modules in their off-slot (the slots that don't utilize their preferred tanking) are more appealing. We just buffed Reactives and Ferroscales, why would they be included? Brick tanking means maximum hp, and those two have less than half the hp as the Armor Plates.
I think that's not normal
- a caldari assault can have more than 300HP armor (without the eHP buff) with armor plates... It must be more difficult to fit an armor plate I think..
To favorise the ferrosc and the react...
For me a little increase the PG cost for armor plate (basic : 3 => 5 // enhanced : 6 => 8 // complex : 12 => 13)
Ho yeah Love you Rattati!
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
3961
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Posted - 2014.07.25 15:54:00 -
[637] - Quote
I would be in favor of the Basic Medium Frame suit having 2 equipment slots, being a split of Assault and Logi roles, but without the bonuses.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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S-PANZA
Expert Intervention
Caldari State
14
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Posted - 2014.07.25 18:17:00 -
[638] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:
The path is clear however, this overemphasis of eHP buffing has to be countered, simply by increasing PG of plates, it is obvious and imminent.
I hope your taking into account the Heavies CPU / PG nerfs, Heavies are tanks , some rely on armor plates. An imminent increase in PG on plates could be, no, will be detrimental to armor tankers.
Just saying.
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Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
90
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Posted - 2014.07.25 20:56:00 -
[639] - Quote
@ Rattati
Is the eHP buff (for assault) is finally confirmed ?
You have received many answers, but they were (almost all) good for that. So, finally confirmed ?
I'm creating some suits on protofits, so I wonder if it's OK ?
Ho yes, I wonder it also because on this topic (https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2249460#post2249460)it's not conformed.
Thank you
Ho yeah Love you Rattati!
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The dark cloud
The Rainbow Effect
3696
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Posted - 2014.07.25 21:06:00 -
[640] - Quote
Im not completely happy with the caldari sentinel. At least the standard variant is bugging me cause i would prefer 2 high and 1 low over 3 high slots. That 1 low slot would allow me either to fit a reactive plate, armor repper or shield regulator. Otherwise it would be too much depending on logis. |
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Cody Sietz
SVER True Blood
Dark Taboo
3692
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Posted - 2014.07.25 22:42:00 -
[641] - Quote
Soooo if these do go through, have you though about increasing the Gallente sentinel base reps a tiny bit?
"I do agree with you there though. shudders"
-Arkena Wyrnspire
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Cody Sietz
SVER True Blood
Dark Taboo
3692
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Posted - 2014.07.25 22:43:00 -
[642] - Quote
Killer's Coys wrote:@ Rattati Is the eHP buff (for assault) is finally confirmed ? You have received many answers, but they were (almost all) good for that. So, finally confirmed ? I'm creating some suits on protofits, so I wonder if it's OK ? Ho yes, I wonder it also because on this topic : https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2249460#post2249460 it's not confirmed. Thank you
I think we aren't getting a buff to base ehp anymore. I'm basing that on the extra slot all assault suits may get. Personally, I'd rather have the ehp increase and let the Logis have the most highs and lows.
"I do agree with you there though. shudders"
-Arkena Wyrnspire
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Killer's Coys
Prima Gallicus
90
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Posted - 2014.07.25 22:49:00 -
[643] - Quote
Cody Sietz wrote:Killer's Coys wrote:@ Rattati Is the eHP buff (for assault) is finally confirmed ? You have received many answers, but they were (almost all) good for that. So, finally confirmed ? I'm creating some suits on protofits, so I wonder if it's OK ? Ho yes, I wonder it also because on this topic : https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2249460#post2249460 it's not confirmed. Thank you I think we aren't getting a buff to base ehp anymore. I'm basing that on the extra slot all assault suits may get. Personally, I'd rather have the ehp increase and let the Logis have the most highs and lows.
Me too, but I think we will receive the eHP buff and the slot buff
Just think avout the STA assault, it'll not have +1 slot, so it'll receive a eHP buff, I hope
Ho yeah Love you Rattati!
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4848
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Posted - 2014.07.25 22:52:00 -
[644] - Quote
We will do final testing and the result will be in the draft of the consolidated changes, pre-patchnotes if you will.
I thank you for the feedback, everyone who participated in a civil and constructive manner.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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