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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 37 post(s) |
John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
3797
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Posted - 2014.07.16 23:39:00 -
[1] - Quote
Awesome. No more sidearm on the Amarr logi.
Totally ignoring the community again. The more things change, the more they stay the same, CCP.
How about you don't let your OCD override variety and, you know, fun?
GG, CCP.
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
3798
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Posted - 2014.07.17 02:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Boot Booter wrote:Cat Merc.
I agree with you, without dual tanking like a scrub (me) the Amarr will be better than the Gal (especially considering the weapon bonus stuff).
So would you agree with keep the slot layout Rattati suggested but with a buff to the Gal assault base armor regen?
If so what would be acceptable number 5 hp/s, 7hp/s? 9hp/s and it's a deal :P But seriously though, the core of the issue comes from a complete lack of decent high slot modules. There is no real advantage to having that extra slot. 5hps for freesies? Really?
Yeah, IDK Cat, people complained all day long about the "OP" 5hp/s that logi's used to get and allegedly fueled the Gal slayer-logi meta (not saying I agree with that, just saying it was a hot topic).
Obviously the 9hp/s is unreasonable, but a "free" enhanced armor rep (aka old complex) that doesn't cost you any CPU/PG is not worth a low slot? On a faster suit? You're asking for an awful lot, then. I'd like to see the Amarr assault fitting that is so amazing that a Gal assault with an inherent 5 (even 3) armor rep is useless in comparison.
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
3799
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Posted - 2014.07.17 02:51:00 -
[3] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:CCP Rattati wrote: Moving forward with few changes without changing the whole layout of every dropsuit is certainly on the table as well. The logi sidearm f.ex. There are other "anomalies" that I would love to discuss, such as STD and ADV logi racial differences.
Have at it and keep it civil and constructive!
Please read before posting. Ok, Rattati, I'll bite. What would you like from the community to convince you that removing the Amarr logi sidearm solely in the name of "normalizing" is not needed? Were all the suggestions and justifications in the initial Charlie thread insufficient?
I will give you numbers, sample fits, lore justifications, playstyle rationale, take your pick. Tell me what you want, I'll give you a counter-argument. And I will promise you that it will be 100% constructive, expletive-free, and logical/rational. In return I ask only that you do the opposite and justify why you think it so necessary it be removed. May the best argument win.
(I will start out by pre-emptively countering that your OCD and/or simplifying the (honestly not that complicated to begin with) math on slots is a fairly weak basis for making a change of this magnitude that is clearly not supported by the majority of the community.)
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
3799
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Posted - 2014.07.17 02:58:00 -
[4] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:John Demonsbane wrote:True Adamance wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Boot Booter wrote:Cat Merc.
I agree with you, without dual tanking like a scrub (me) the Amarr will be better than the Gal (especially considering the weapon bonus stuff).
So would you agree with keep the slot layout Rattati suggested but with a buff to the Gal assault base armor regen?
If so what would be acceptable number 5 hp/s, 7hp/s? 9hp/s and it's a deal :P But seriously though, the core of the issue comes from a complete lack of decent high slot modules. There is no real advantage to having that extra slot. 5hps for freesies? Really? Yeah, IDK Cat, people complained all day long about the "OP" 5hp/s that logi's used to get and allegedly fueled the Gal slayer-logi meta (not saying I agree with that, just saying it was a hot topic). Obviously the 9hp/s is unreasonable, but a "free" enhanced armor rep (aka old complex) that doesn't cost you any CPU/PG is not worth a low slot? On a faster suit? You're asking for an awful lot, then. I'd like to see the Amarr assault fitting that is so amazing that a Gal assault with an inherent 5 (even 3) armor rep is useless in comparison. I consider that hp/s as the nuclear option. However: The situation is completely different. Gal Logis had 3/5 slots in addition to having 5hp/s and to top it all off they had 4 equipment. All of these combined made assaults useless.
Yeah, but the assault/logi imbalance is a totally different topic. We're talking about just the assault suits here. Why is 5hp/s unbalanced on any suit, regardless of the other factors, but a waste of time here? Taking your earlier example, the Amarr would get ~150 more HP, but the Gal would get 9 more regen. Is that not a decent tradeoff? It's basically like a complex plate in exchange for a complex rep. That's nothing to sniff at, and sounds an awful lot like buffer vs regen.
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
3803
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Posted - 2014.07.17 03:20:00 -
[5] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:John Demonsbane wrote:\ Yes, the totality of the assault/logi imbalance is indeed a different topic. We may be talking about just the assault suits, but why is 5hp/s unbalanced on any suit, regardless of the other factors, but a waste of time here? Taking your earlier example, the Amarr would get ~150 more HP, but the Gal would get 9 more regen. Is that not a decent tradeoff? It's basically like a complex plate in exchange for a complex rep. That's nothing to sniff at, and sounds an awful lot like buffer vs regen. Maybe. It just doesn't feel right, I can't explain it. It feels like the lazy option that would make a mess out of everything.
You win this round, Cat. I can't form a counter argument against a nebulous uneasiness....
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
3803
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Posted - 2014.07.17 03:33:00 -
[6] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:John Demonsbane wrote: Ok, Rattati, I'll bite. What would you like from the community to convince you that removing the Amarr logi sidearm solely in the name of "normalizing" is not needed? Were all the suggestions and justifications in the initial Charlie thread insufficient?
I will give you numbers, sample fits, lore justifications, playstyle rationale, take your pick. Tell me what you want, I'll give you a counter-argument. And I will promise you that it will be 100% constructive, expletive-free, and logical/rational. In return I ask only that you do the opposite and justify why you think it so necessary it be removed. May the best argument win.
(I will start out by pre-emptively countering that your OCD and/or simplifying the (honestly not that complicated to begin with) math on slots is a fairly weak basis for making a change of this magnitude that is clearly not supported by the majority of the community.)
Caveat: I'm not a Logi. I'm no fan of Logis (because of 2013). I've no intention of ever becoming a Logi (because of 2013).
But if I had skilled into the Amarr Logi it would've been strictly because it has a sidearm slot. That's its defining characteristic, and that defining characteristic has never (to my knowledge) caused problems. I remember when the entirety of Nyain San ran CalLogi, then switched to GalLogi, but I can't say I've ever seen a single one of 'em running an AM Logi. If AM Logis are saying "we want to keep the sidearm slot rather than adding an H or L slot", I say ... why not? If AM Logis are saying "we want to keep the sidearm slot and add an H or L slot", I say ... hellsnaw.
In all fairness, we kinda give up an EQ slot and a low slot if you look at the slot counts of the Cal logi or all the recently redesigned suits. Unlike the assault, the Amarr logi is still set up as a dual tank suit. Personally I'd like a proper amount of lows for an Amarr suit and am happy to ditch one EQ slot for the sidearm.
It's not like there's any chance I could fit a reasonable fourth piece of equipment with the pathetically low PG the suit has anyway. A toxin SMG, on the other hand, fits quite nicely.
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
3810
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Posted - 2014.07.17 11:40:00 -
[7] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:OK this is literally going nowhere. Disagree. If you need to steer the discussion, do so. You can't bin nine pages of feedback (sure some of it's chaff you have to sort through) just like that and just say "say yes if you agree" and leave it at that. Why would the guys who have put effort in here to try and feedback how something is good or bad continue to do so now? What is it you are asking us to do in your OP? I said list the things you agree with, then I can see if there is a consensus on a few of the changes that we could implement.
That's actually a pretty solid idea, I knew what you meant but the language can easily be misconstrued.
The problem, as already pointed out, is that it is difficult to fully analyze the new slot layouts without some idea of what's going to happen to the PG/CPU. Personally, I'd also like the spreadsheet to be labeled a little better, it's easy to lose track of what you are looking at as currently formatted.
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
3811
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Posted - 2014.07.18 04:25:00 -
[8] - Quote
Velociraptor antirrhopus wrote:Velociraptor antirrhopus wrote:I'm not a huge fan of the Amarr and Gallente Sentinel slot changes. Why? Not much sense using a shield extender on the Amarr anymore. No sense whatsoever. Edit: Hey, it would make a TON of sense to switch the Hybrid Rail resistance to Armor now instead of Shields.Oh, and I can't even use a sidearm damage mod if I want to with my heavy mod. Have you even ran the numbers to see how these changes will affect sentinel vs sentinel? Looks to me like Gallente is getting the advantage over Amarr now with an extra slot for a heavy damage mod or even a shield extender. Somehow I doubt even with the Amarr's 15% innate resistance to projectile weapons that an extra armor plate will help much against what is effectively a 4% DPS buff to Gallente and -4% nerf to Amarr's DPS. I can already see the FOTM coming CCP... it's a good thing I was planning on skilling into the Caldari sentinel next so my shield extender skill doesn't go to a complete waste. I'm bumping my own post because no one replied to it.
WTF would you put a shield extender on an Amarr sentinel? That hurts my head.
It's an abomination, it is.
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
3825
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Posted - 2014.07.23 02:02:00 -
[9] - Quote
Liking the new changes. A little disappointed I won't be finally getting my extra low slot until delta, but keeping my sidearm (sorry, my OP crutch sidearm ) is well worth the wait. Assault changes will be awesome.
(P.s. I, too, hope the balacs ck.0 will not be ignored, I've been waiting a long time to use mine, lol.)
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
3826
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Posted - 2014.07.23 22:15:00 -
[10] - Quote
Stefan Stahl wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:We would rather cut the ehp buff than the additional slots, we feel it underlines the versatility aspect of the assault, spec for the situation. I think eHP should have higher priority than slots since it applies to all tiers, while the extra slots are only applied to specific tiers. Also more slots lead to higher cost of fittings. I agree. The hp buff deminishes the tier progression which is exactly what the game needs. The new slot progression increases the power progression to the detriment of 98% of the players. Not me, but i take pitty in those that get will stomped. I don't think matchmaking is ever going to improve the situation. We're too few already.
On the surface I agree with Rattati's concept that a slot is a better choice than a base stat buff.
However, if it only applies to the higher tier suits then it's a bad idea because we really shouldn't be increasing the disparity between proto and everyone else!
I guess you could argue that 150 might encroach on the Commando's, maybe drop it to 100 and adjust as needed?
Floyd20 Azizora wrote: Why are you trying to throw on complex armor plates and reps on advanced suits?
Uh... because that has always been the most cost-effective fitting for virtually every class of suit at every point in the history of Dust? (ADV suit with ADV weapon and proto modules) Do you even Dust, bro?
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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