A PROPOSAL
I know that CCP must have data or ideas that justify certain setups. I am also pleased that there has been a move to rectify many subjects to create an evolving game that achieves a greater balance and immersion.


My beef is with the MED Frame inequalities (LOGI and ASSAULT). There is a tension between the two because there is a lack of definition with the ASSAULT type MED frame. The LOGI is well defined and remains unique and is in a good place that will be better with the proper slot adjustments. The difficulty in CCPGÇÖs position is that it has yet to make the ASSAULT Frames the defining go to suits. IGÇÖm sure that if IGÇÖm not outright just stealing the idea by not crediting authors it is only that I agree with your positions and wanted to emphasize them again, but I offer this suggestion that I like.

Defining the MED Frames
The SLOT ADJUSTMENT is a good start, but too little to move the ASSAULTS to where they will be a dominating force. It hardly seems logical that a LOGI is the same ASSAULT suit that sacrifices base stats (EHP, potential, speed, shield recharge, stamina and recharge, etc.) and their side arm (mostly) then gets to carry all this great equipment AND have more high(H) and low(L) slots.

The ASSAULT will only stand out when there is a defining difference between the two frames that makes the choice for a slayer obvious and the choice for a support role obvious.

Make the ASSAULTs mean.
THE H/L SLOT LAYOUT of each MED FRAME equal to each other or higher for ASSAULTS.
THE CPU/PG is EQUAL or higher for LOGIS but each can fit all Proto MODS and Proto GEAR (LOGI EQ and ASSAULT LW, SA)
Keep the LOGI stats as they are now.
ASSAULT stats as they are now, but more HP as planned.

First the LOGI
A LOGIGÇÖs power in MODules and EQuipment
Here the slot counts are all Equal to 8, 10, 12. BUT not all should be the same GÇô keeping a little flavor with the equipment bearers is cool. (and I support the Logi bonus changes)

UNIQUE Logis GÇô (3EQ, Side Arm, Module Focus)
AMARR
SIDE ARM (Best Choice GÇô Unique)..........ORMODULE Focused (IFF Bonuses Change)
S- 2H/3L/2E + Side Arm................................S- 3H/3L/2E
A- 2H/4L/3E + Side Arm ................................A- 3H/4L/3E
P- 3H/5L/3E + Side Arm.................................P- 4H/5L/3E

CALDARI
SIDE ARM (Equality - another SA option)......ORMODULE Focused (Unique)
S- 3H/2L/2E + Side Arm ....................................S- 3H/3L/2E
A- 4H/2L/3E + Side Arm .....................................A- 4H/3L/3E
P- 5H/3L/3E + Side Arm .....................................P- 5H/4L/3E

EQ SPECIFIC Logis GÇô (4EQ)
GALLENTE
S- 2H/3L/3E
A- 2H/3L/3E
P- 3H/5L/4E

MINMATAR
S- 2H/2L/3E
A- 3H/3L/3E
P- 4H/4L/4E

Delivers Logis with equal slot counts (side arm = 1 EQ) Keeps them equal in tier movements.

ASSAULTS: Capable of being the most unique and powerful force out there. Lets make them that way.
AMARR
EQUAL to logi........................ORBETTER - Logi loses 1EQ for SA
S- 2H/3L/1E + Side Arm.............S- 3H/3L/1E + Side Arm
A- 2H/4L/1E + Side Arm.............A- 3H/4L/1E + Side Arm
P- 3H/5L/1E + Side Arm.............P- 4H/5L/1E + Side Arm

CALDARI
EQUAL to log.........................ORBETTER - Logi loses 1EQ for SA
S- 3H/2L/1E + Side Arm.............S- 3H/3L/1E + Side Arm
A- 4H/2L/1E + Side Arm..............A- 4H/3L/1E + Side Arm
P- 5H/3L/1E + Side Arm..............P- 5H/4L/1E + Side Arm

GALLENTE
EQUAL to logi........................ORBETTER - Logi loses 1H for 4thEQ
S- 2H/3L/1E + Side Arm.............S- 3H/3L/1E + Side Arm
A- 2H/4L/1E + Side Arm.............A- 3H/4L/1E + Side Arm
P- 3H/5L/1E + Side Arm.............P- 4H/5L/1E + Side Arm

MINMATAR
EQUAL to logi........................ORBETTER Focus - Logi loses 1H for 4thEQ
S- 2H/2L/1E + Side Arm.............S- 3H/3L/1E + Side Arm
A- 3H/3L/1E + Side Arm.............A- 4H/3L/1E + Side Arm
P- 4H/4L/1E + Side Arm.............P- 5H/4L/1E + Side Arm

IN this way The COST of not being an ASSAULT is always less modules.
Logis gain equipment but loses stat and 1 module.
Scouts gain speed and equipment but lose stats and modules.
Commandos gain HP and another LW but lose grenades and modules.
Heavies gain HW and HP but lose modules.

ASSAULTs will be the Maximum warriors even if their bonuses are not all that people may want. The modules and better stats make them awesome regardless.

It makes the ASSAULTs versatile for battle and they may even give every class a run for their money as they will be the new Logi Slayer or Brick Scout that can suddenly do everything better than every other class (with the right module)GǪ but isnGÇÖt that what the ASSAULTs were meant to do? WerenGÇÖt the other classes supposed to sacrifice to take on another role? Not all roles are equal, but balance does not mean equality.

IGÇÖll work on some CPU/PG Calculations tomorrow to try to find that sweet spot where the MED frames can have the same CPU/PG and what percentages their Bonuses need to be at in order to accommodate such a move.

ThatGÇÖs all I got for now.

Right after logistics gets a much needed buff to it's base stats.

I don't think Logi's should be getting any kind of base stat buff. Which particular stat are you referring to?

My reasoning is that the logis have too many slots and are not suppose to be better or stronger than other suits. The whole point about a logi is to have all that equipment to SUPPORT the squad/team. is their only role support? no, every player and every suit is a mercenary first, but the logi should not be able to handle 3-4 equipment, a mix of 9 or so highs and lows, grenades and a light weapon.

The commando is a good example of the trade-offs for specialized suits. They lose a lot of highs and lows for that 2nd light weapon slot. As a matter of fact, maybe the logis shouldn't even have a light weapon slot, but instead just a side-arm slot? Maybe lose the grenade slot too, but they definitely need to lose a few highs and lows.

Hi all,

We want to have this formal discussion and get your input. We believe that the community has wanted to have some say on this issue for some time, and now that I am studying this data in detail, some things brush me the wrong way (or my OCD).

Dropsuit Slot Layout

First table is Current, next table is proposed, and third tracks the difference in slots between the two.

We don't need to do any changes to these layouts right now. However, with PG/CPU increases for the Assault class on the horizon, more based on a PG/CPU allotment per slot type, it would be the right timing to swap a high with a low in strategic places, or add missing slots.

The new premise is a single matrix of racial high/low arrangements and then tactical choices of the other slots (EQ, SA, W, G). The proposed matrix is also intended to be more thematically in line with EVE Online racial slots.

Amarr highest number of low slots
Caldari highest number of high slots
Gallente equal number of highs and lows, preferring lows
Minmatar equal number of highs and lows, preferring highs

Moving forward with few changes without changing the whole layout of every dropsuit is certainly on the table as well. The logi sidearm f.ex. There are other "anomalies" that I would love to discuss, such as STD and ADV logi racial differences.

Of course if you see some errors, please let us know.

Have at it and keep it civil and constructive!

Good luck, go easy on the new disorganized players, but watch out for the gal assault, they have more advantages.


Now that he has run off :

I like the idea of the Cal assault having properties similar to both the Cal heavy and scout. Ie the one second depleted delay and upwards of 50hps. I believe this will allow the slot layouts of the proposed Cal assault suit to tank shields more effectively, but there really needs to be something that makes up for the disparity created with triage hives and repair tools. Definitely the removal of all negative effects on stacking extenders and using energizers could go along way. With only two low slots though, ouch, out of shield looks pretty rough with the way things are now.

Yea shields really do need loving. They can never be equal to Armour while armour has rep tools, triage hives, 100% needles etc....

(Why no shield rep tool? Why no shield repair hive? Why no 100% shield regeneration nanite injector? WHY CCP!?)

Because (I think) all caldari must know playing "alone"
But, if CCP wants that, why 30hp/s shield regen ? need more and more ! And need more CPU pleeeeeeaaaaseeeeee
10% isn't enought

If Logi and Assault have the same fitting capacity, base hp (not speed), and slot layout, then with correctly tuned fitting capacity and a buff to 15% fitting reduction on equipment and weapons for each class there should be no question which does which.

The Assault gets to easily fit a proto weapon while struggling to fit proto equipment and proto modules and the logi easily fits proto equipment while struggling to fit proto weapon and proto modules.

To finally reinforce this, the assault and logis both need compelling equipment and weapon bonuses to give them advantages that the other cannot receive through fitting modules alone.

If you gimp logi base stats AND gimp their slot layout... then they just become too weak to matter and will constantly get chewed up by every other class.

Ummm... No.
Even with current CPU/PG fitting prototype weapons is laughably easy.

What you will do is basically make Assault obsolete.

Ummm... No.
Even with current CPU/PG fitting prototype weapons is laughably easy.

What you will do is basically make Assault obsolete.

Caldari logis losing a low slot in exchange for an extra equipment slot kills the suit with current cpu levels.

shield based suits are very cpu hungry, energizers require 96 cpu, recharges and extenders also have high requirements

losing that low slot means an equipment slot may have to be empty just to have shields at a point where a scrambler rifle will still two shot you.

Running a caldari scout as a logi will be more effective than running a caldari logi as a logi unless i an really focused on using 2 extra pieces of equipment on my squishy, slow moving, no sidearm, poorly scanning, slow shield recharging, larger hit boxed, more expensive, death trap.

why run Cal logi instead of Cal scout?

Put 4 proto equips in the slots of the proposed Cal logi and see what you are left with in your other slots. It's not pretty.

no more

caldari assaults need reductions to the cost of everything shield related if they are losing a low slot and cpu/pg levels are not increased even more than these new numbers.

having an armor stacked gal assault STARTING TO REP HIS SHIELDS close to when shield stacked assaults ( who specialize in shields ) start to rep thiers AFTER THE ARMOR SUIT GETS IMMEDIATE ARMOR REPS FOR 5 SECONDS..

maybe start by removing the free shield recharge on the gal suits. let thier shields stay down unless they equip a recharger..

what do you think cat merc? don't like balance?

you just said you couldnt fit damage mods because your cpu pg was too low... which is it cat merc?

still pushinig for op armor?

try for balance cat merc

With the CR and its tiny fitting requirements, I might agree with you. Otherwise, you cannot fit proto everything on a logi suit without CPU and PG mods. Not that i've ever been able to do at least using Cal Logi pre fitting reduction or Amarr Logi post fitting reduction. I imagine it only gets more difficult with a 4th piece of proto equipment.

How does this make assaults obsolete? With compelling weapon bonuses AND what is essentially a straight buff. Then you give assaults increased base regeneration and you're in a good spot.

If you think this is wrong i'd welcome a better explanation than "um... no"

The ability to upgrade from a GEK to a Duvolle and slightly higher regeneration is absolutely not worth losing the 4 equipment that logis have.

It's not fair trade.

to you maybe:

You are giving up a sidearm, increased regen, increased move (and strafe speed) and weapon bonuses. That is fairly substantial.

However, my comment was referring more to how a balanced slot and hp layout could make it work. I also did include that compelling weapon oriented bonuses need to be added to the assault suits, as the Gal/Cal ones are crap atm. Maybe rolled into that would be something else like the RoF increase many have proposed or something along those lines.

You've never seemed like an assault player though. You've always undervalued move speed and sidearms.

Injectors:
Shields start regenerating instantly after an injection, and considering the speed at which they do it, I don't think it's a big deal.

Comments like this make me a little worried. Have you ever played in PC Cat Merc?

Injectors are generally useless in PC unless you are bringing up a heavy, but for shield based suits? It's laughable how useless injectors are...

How you can even consider that reviving with 80% or 100% armor vs 0% shields is balanced concerns me...

Z dub, cat merc is part of the problem with the community having a strong voice on the forums.

Make enough posts about needing armor buffs and maybe just maybe his kdr will go up when his suit becomes more OP. he does not understand balance and believes that because he can shoot some newberries in a shield suit that everyrhing is balanced, when deep down, I think even he knows that armor has huge advantages over shields right now.

It's the deception that I hope Ratattati can see through.

TBH injectors are rare for everything under heavy, shield or not.

I don't remember the last time I saw someone get revived.