| Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 [11] 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 :: one page |
|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 37 post(s) |
Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
230
   |
Posted - 2014.07.18 23:31:00 -
[301] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Injectors:
Shields start regenerating instantly after an injection, and considering the speed at which they do it, I don't think it's a big deal. Comments like this make me a little worried. Have you ever played in PC Cat Merc? Injectors are generally useless in PC unless you are bringing up a heavy, but for shield based suits? It's laughable how useless injectors are... How you can even consider that reviving with 80% or 100% armor vs 0% shields is balanced concerns me... TBH injectors are rare for everything under heavy, shield or not. I don't remember the last time I saw someone get revived.
Not true i run injectors all the time, they only benefit armor suits as most people stacking shields would rather re spawnwith full shields. UNLESS OF COURSE THEY ARE STACK ING ARMOR PLATES. |
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11112
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 23:31:00 -
[302] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:Z dub, cat merc is part of the problem with the community having a strong voice on the forums.
Make enough posts about needing armor buffs and maybe just maybe his kdr will go up when his suit becomes more OP. he does not understand balance and believes that because he can shoot some newberries in a shield suit that everyrhing is balanced, when deep down, I think even he knows that armor has huge advantages over shields right now.
It's the deception that I hope Ratattati can see through.
Go ahead, look at my posts history.
When did I ask to buff armor?
Click on search and insert my name into the character field.
I fully understand balance, and what I see in PC is equal use of shield and armor suits (From videos uploaded).
PC is usually where the most try hardy fits shine (Old Cal Logis with TAR's as an example from a while ago)
If in PC people use both equally, especially now when everyone is specced into multiple suits, I think balance is achieved/very close to be achieved.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
|
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11112
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 23:36:00 -
[303] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:Cat Merc wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Injectors:
Shields start regenerating instantly after an injection, and considering the speed at which they do it, I don't think it's a big deal. Comments like this make me a little worried. Have you ever played in PC Cat Merc? Injectors are generally useless in PC unless you are bringing up a heavy, but for shield based suits? It's laughable how useless injectors are... How you can even consider that reviving with 80% or 100% armor vs 0% shields is balanced concerns me... TBH injectors are rare for everything under heavy, shield or not. I don't remember the last time I saw someone get revived. Not true i run injectors all the time, they only benefit armor suits as most people stacking shields would rather re spawnwith full shields. UNLESS OF COURSE THEY ARE STACK ING ARMOR PLATES.
The only time that would matter is when revived under fire.
Reviving under fire usually ends up with me getting a free kill from the few times I saw someone revive.
Yes even against a proto Gal Heavy stacked with plates.
It's simply an easy kill.
A Caldari Assault would have to wait around 5-6 seconds while the Gallente Assault can charge in.
However, most don't, since those Gallente too don't get their shields back, and since the recharge rate is slower, the amount of time to get back into battle with full HP is a few seconds higher. (Not by much)
Honestly, even if injectors restored shields, I still don't think injectors would be quite as common as they were in Chromo.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
|
Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
230
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 23:36:00 -
[304] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:Doc DDD wrote:Z dub, cat merc is part of the problem with the community having a strong voice on the forums.
Make enough posts about needing armor buffs and maybe just maybe his kdr will go up when his suit becomes more OP. he does not understand balance and believes that because he can shoot some newberries in a shield suit that everyrhing is balanced, when deep down, I think even he knows that armor has huge advantages over shields right now.
It's the deception that I hope Ratattati can see through. The squeeky wheel always gets the grease right? I'll admit that armor needed some help in those early days though... I remember feeling relieved every time I saw a heavy or an armored based medium frame back then cause you knew it was gonna be an easy fight. Nowadays though I can't imagine playing a shield suit... Shield suits do need some love. Tools for better group play would be really helpful (Remote Shield Booster and some Injector love for starters...). As well as a bigger focus on shield recharge delays with the removal of the extender penalty being a good place to start as well.
Agreed
And yes armor did need love before it got buffed, but now the needle has swung in the opposite direction and there is a glaring imbalance.
I can understand how someone that rarely plays might not notice, but to EVERY ONE else the only way you can survive without stacking a bunch of plates is to have an escape route. I have faith that Ratattati will get this right, he has done well so far and is trying very hard. |
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11112
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 23:37:00 -
[305] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:Doc DDD wrote:Z dub, cat merc is part of the problem with the community having a strong voice on the forums.
Make enough posts about needing armor buffs and maybe just maybe his kdr will go up when his suit becomes more OP. he does not understand balance and believes that because he can shoot some newberries in a shield suit that everyrhing is balanced, when deep down, I think even he knows that armor has huge advantages over shields right now.
It's the deception that I hope Ratattati can see through. The squeeky wheel always gets the grease right? I'll admit that armor needed some help in those early days though... I remember feeling relieved every time I saw a heavy or an armored based medium frame back then cause you knew it was gonna be an easy fight. Nowadays though I can't imagine playing a shield suit... Shield suits do need some love. Tools for better group play would be really helpful (Remote Shield Booster and some Injector love for starters...). As well as a bigger focus on shield recharge delays with the removal of the extender penalty being a good place to start as well. Cat Merc wrote:TBH injectors are rare for everything under heavy, shield or not.
I don't remember the last time I saw someone get revived. While a lot of that has to do with the mechanics of reviving (no press to revive), some of that has to do with how bad injectors are. However, that doesn't preclude the fact that shield users are totally boned.
Actually the shield delays affect me more as an armor tanker.
My base delay is 10 seconds, so if I try to stack shields, it penalises me more than a Caldari with a base of 5.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
|
Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
231
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 23:38:00 -
[306] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Doc DDD wrote:Cat Merc wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Injectors:
Shields start regenerating instantly after an injection, and considering the speed at which they do it, I don't think it's a big deal. Comments like this make me a little worried. Have you ever played in PC Cat Merc? Injectors are generally useless in PC unless you are bringing up a heavy, but for shield based suits? It's laughable how useless injectors are... How you can even consider that reviving with 80% or 100% armor vs 0% shields is balanced concerns me... TBH injectors are rare for everything under heavy, shield or not. I don't remember the last time I saw someone get revived. Not true i run injectors all the time, they only benefit armor suits as most people stacking shields would rather re spawnwith full shields. UNLESS OF COURSE THEY ARE STACK ING ARMOR PLATES. The only time that would matter is when revived under fire. Reviving under fire usually ends up with me getting a free kill from the few times I saw someone revive. Yes even against a proto Gal Heavy stacked with plates. It's simply an easy kill. A Caldari Assault would have to wait around 5-6 seconds while the Gallente Assault can charge in. However, most don't, since those Gallente too don't get their shields back, and since the recharge rate is slower, the amount of time to get back into battle with full HP is a few seconds higher. (Not by much) Honestly, even if injectors restored shields, I still don't think injectors would be quite as common as they were in Chromo.
lol wow so you get a free kill when I revive a 1200 hp heavy with a 100% needle while you are reloading then immediate start repping him?
Stick to pub stomping and crying for more armor buffs. You have no place in any discussions about balance. |
|
CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4511
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 23:44:00 -
[307] - Quote
Please stay on topic as requested and reply with the new slot layouts you agree with, only. Thanks.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
|
|
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11115
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 23:44:00 -
[308] - Quote
The buffs armor got since Uprising 1.0:
Increased HP on all plates by 20, from 65/95/115 to 85/115/135
Reduced speed penalty from 3/5/10 to 2/3/5 (Now at 3/4/5)
Buffed Repairers from 2/3/5 to 2.5/5/7.5
The buffs shields got since Uprising 1.0:
Increased HP on STD/ADV extenders from 22/33 to 33/50
Buffed Complex shield recharger CPU cost from 90CPU to 85CPU
Increased Recharger bonuses from 15%/25%/42% to 25%/35%/45%
Buffed Energizers from 25%/45%/60% to 35%/55%/65%
Buffed Shield regulators from 10%/20%/25% to 15%/25%/35%
When did the imbalance happen?
Doc DDD wrote:
lol wow so you get a free kill when I revive a 1200 hp heavy with a 100% needle while you are reloading then immediate start repping him?
Stick to pub stomping and crying for more armor buffs. You have no place in any discussions about balance.
Yes actually.
The stand up animation gives me enough time to kill them/drop their HP a lot.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
|
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11115
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 23:45:00 -
[309] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Please stay on topic as requested and reply with the new slot layouts you agree with, only. Thanks.
Roger that Rattati.
Sorry for the above post, I was writing it before you made the request.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
|
Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
231
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 23:48:00 -
[310] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Doc DDD wrote:Z dub, cat merc is part of the problem with the community having a strong voice on the forums.
Make enough posts about needing armor buffs and maybe just maybe his kdr will go up when his suit becomes more OP. he does not understand balance and believes that because he can shoot some newberries in a shield suit that everyrhing is balanced, when deep down, I think even he knows that armor has huge advantages over shields right now.
It's the deception that I hope Ratattati can see through. Go ahead, look at my posts history. When did I ask to buff armor? Click on search and insert my name into the character field. I fully understand balance, and what I see in PC is equal use of shield and armor suits (From videos uploaded). PC is usually where the most try hardy fits shine (Old Cal Logis with TAR's as an example from a while ago) If in PC people use both equally, especially now when everyone is specced into multiple suits, I think balance is achieved/very close to be achieved.
In pc, if you run a shield suit you better be invisible as often as possible. Thus is not from watching year old YouTube videos of some scrub corps playing.
If you are pushing a point you better a have armor stacked gal heavies being repped by min logis. Shield are not as viable as armor, so 99% of assaulters STACK PLATES.
there is no balance in pc no matter how many videos you have watched on YouTube. |
|
|
Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
233
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 23:49:00 -
[311] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Please stay on topic as requested and reply with the new slot layouts you agree with, only. Thanks. Roger that Rattati. Sorry for the above post, I was writing it before you made the request.
Same |
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11117
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 23:54:00 -
[312] - Quote
Well, I don't think there's much to say about the slots.
If the Assault CPU/PG buff is high enough to allow Caldari to use shields without CPU mods, I don't think there will be any issues.
Are we getting a spreadsheet about that anytime soon?
I would like to theorycraft.
Edit: Nevermind, just saw the spreadsheet, will report with results soon.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
|
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11117
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 23:56:00 -
[313] - Quote
Oh and will you be combining your spreadsheets into one with different tabs like in Bravo?
It's more convenient that way and allows us to track the changes better.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
|
|
CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4512
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 00:00:00 -
[314] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Well, I don't think there's much to say about the slots.
If the Assault CPU/PG buff is high enough to allow Caldari to use shields without CPU mods, I don't think there will be any issues.
Are we getting a spreadsheet about that anytime soon?
I would like to theorycraft.
Edit: Nevermind, just saw the spreadsheet, will report with results soon.
It's already stickied and please note they are based on current layouts.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
|
|
Heimdallr69
Nyain San
2824
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 00:01:00 -
[315] - Quote
I'm just gonna state this now.. Benefits of armor : double the hp of shields, 2-3 damage mods without losing your hp, can be repped by other players or a triage hive, when getting shot it doesn't stop your reps but you rep through it whereas even 1 damage to shields will completely stop the regen.
Benefits of shields- no movement penalty.
My opinion is the cal ass should be all highs 7/0.
Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro
|
Cu' Chulainn
A.O.D.
VP Gaming Alliance
9
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 00:04:00 -
[316] - Quote
BlazeXYZ wrote:If i'm right the amarr assault will have 1042.5 armor with 5 lows. 
yeah but anyone who would run that suit with the movement penalties would be as good as dead...stuck in the mud... Gallente proto assault gets near 800-900 now, but is a sitting duck as Scouts & caldari assaults jump around all nimbly-bimbly shooting and chipping it away with anything they choose
lol |
Cu' Chulainn
A.O.D.
VP Gaming Alliance
9
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 00:08:00 -
[317] - Quote
This may have been addressed already.... I do wish for an extra high slot on gallente heavy (maybe asking too much), or a better than 1pt amor rep rate (why even put it?) ... they are slowest and clumsiest of heavies...cant stand up to Amar Sentinal on even ground. I was excited when Gallente class came out and I re-spec'd from Amar Sentinal to Gallente... I now feel it was a mistake.
|
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11118
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 00:09:00 -
[318] - Quote
Heimdallr69 wrote:I'm just gonna state this now.. Benefits of armor : double the hp of shields, 2-3 damage mods without losing your hp, can be repped by other players or a triage hive, when getting shot it doesn't stop your reps but you rep through it whereas even 1 damage to shields will completely stop the regen.
Benefits of shields- no movement penalty.
My opinion is the cal ass should be all highs 7/0.
Oh ffs, please don't start this again.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
|
BlazeXYZ
xCosmic Voidx
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
47
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 00:13:00 -
[319] - Quote
Cu' Chulainn wrote:BlazeXYZ wrote:If i'm right the amarr assault will have 1042.5 armor with 5 lows. yeah but anyone who would run that suit with the movement penalties would be as good as dead...stuck in the mud... Gallente proto assault gets near 800-900 now, but is a sitting duck as Scouts & caldari assaults jump around all nimbly-bimbly shooting and chipping it away with anything they choose lol
If I ever see a 5 plated amarr assualt, he better have a logi with him or he's dead.
The Blazing Intellect Machine
|
Cu' Chulainn
A.O.D.
VP Gaming Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 00:16:00 -
[320] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Rattati, my mind is blowing up trying to figure out competitive Gal Assault configurations when Amarr Assault has 2/5 slots.
Nothing I can build is competitive, dual tank, armor tank, armor repair, whatever.
And I KNOW how to build armor suits, I have analyzed the ever living crap out of armor since Uprising 1.0 along with Arkena Wyrnspire to create the armor buff thread back before 1.4.
It's really a matter of make high slot utility modules useful, or Gallente Assault will be useless.
Gallente Assault is already useless...Gallente Scout of same level has better survival ability than the assualt in open combat due to mobility... I have tried every configuration that should benefit Gallente assault with little or no progress to disprove my previous statement.... Assault rifle bonus is reall y awesome and I love using the AR however the AR doesn't match well against Combat, Scrambler or Rail Rifles. |
|
|
Velociraptor antirrhopus
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
336
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 00:38:00 -
[321] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:It isn't losing a low slot already, there is an ongoing discussion about it maybe switching a slot, Please keep that in mind and comment in the relevant thread.
Please consider not doing this.
Heavy slot layouts have never been anywhere near comparable to medium and light frames. What would happen if you swapped a Caldari high slot with a low slot? INSANELY fast shield repair that would probably make them OP.
I'm sick of this Eve-lore idealism, everything must be identical bull crap.
You remember when you said "we don't want scouts throwing frisbees at heavies and instakilling them?" This will probably allow basic remotes to OHKO the Amarr again.
I was just starting to like having the freedom to use a shield extender. Now I can't?  Come on. Also, this will make Gallente heavies faster which is also something you didn't want before.
DUST 514 Forums. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villa- er, I mean panty weights and neckbeards.
|
The Eristic
Dust 90210
573
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 01:55:00 -
[322] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Please stay on topic as requested and reply with the new slot layouts you agree with, only. Thanks.
I'm pretty happy with the proposed changes. I have virtually every suit to advanced or higher on different characters, and these layouts and growth (combined with the proposed resource buffs for Assaults) are fairly close to what I've thought most appropriate for nearly all of them except the Logis. Still not so sure about the normalization there, honestly. It's good that the Cal would lose a low and gain an equip (IF it can fit it), but I'm not completely sold on the idea of the Amarr losing its sidearm. It gives the suit a little more flavor.
Reality is the original Rorschach.
Verily! So much for all that.
|
RedBleach LeSanglant
Hellstorm Inc
League of Infamy
634
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 04:33:00 -
[323] - Quote
I like the slot layouts generally.
Standardizing the slot count for each class and then having that fluctuate according to race is appropriate.
I am against removing the A-Logi side arm and standardizing it to be a logi like the Minmatar or Gallente.
I am against standardizing the C-Logi as well.
The Logi bonuses are so unappealing for these two, combined with previous poor slot layouts or lack of fitting power, just increasing the slot count to make them more similar (4EQ each) isn't fun. - while this is not the forum for that discussion I feel like it makes am impact here which is why I bring it up.
Personally I love the variability that comes with more modules. Modules make the suits. The class with the most modules would be the biggest hit IFF (if and only if) it was also for the best for most everything else. Great HP, speed, versatility, DPS potential.
I Really feel that as is the module changes will not bring the Assaults into the limelight that CCP desires. CCP wants more Assaults. They want the assaults to be the main, go-to, suit. For that to happen they need to be given a little push. The bonuses are unappealing (so I've heard - I'm logi not assault - but again not for this forum) but modules allow players to create their unique fighters.
Modules are the power that can move players into different classes. Thus, either moving the H/L slot count of the Assault to equal a logis would bring a new level of power to the class.
BUT Moving them one further, one more so that they would have the 9 possible of the highest potential every player would flock to that class because the masterpieces that a player could create would be a great amount of fun. It would be an overpowering class but perhaps there could be balance if other classes moved to higher slots as well.
OR MAYBE THOSE are the suits we would find in JOVIAN Facilities in Legion??????
Either way the MED FRAMES should be equal in their H/L slot count to make the assaults viable again. My Thoughts anyway.
BUT later, please help my logi brethren one day.
The Logi Code. Cross Atu for CPM1 - A logical choice
|
CommanderBolt
ACME SPECIAL FORCES
RISE of LEGION
1360
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 12:20:00 -
[324] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Rattati, my mind is blowing up trying to figure out competitive Gal Assault configurations when Amarr Assault has 2/5 slots.
Nothing I can build is competitive, dual tank, armor tank, armor repair, whatever.
And I KNOW how to build armor suits, I have analyzed the ever living crap out of armor since Uprising 1.0 along with Arkena Wyrnspire to create the armor buff thread back before 1.4.
It's really a matter of make high slot utility modules useful, or Gallente Assault will be useless. I think we need to buff dmg mods a bit.
#slowclap
Well we did try and warn you that 5% at proto was too little.
I always felt that Mil/Std = 3% Adv = 5% Proto = 7.5% would have been better. Hell maybe even return them to 10% value at proto BUT increase the diminishing returns scale to stop huge stacking of damage mods.
Make 1 to 2 dmg mods viable but limit 4+ Dmg mod spam.
-=#[ Gastun's Forge ]#=-
MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
"I'm wasting away here" - "Get me back into zee fight!
|
Nirwanda Vaughns
426th Infantry
649
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 17:42:00 -
[325] - Quote
quite impressed to see a game developer that knows jack s*** about its own games lore. caldari and gallente are opposites of each other whereas minmatar and amarr are similar but min favoring shields slightly and amarr armor. caldari should be heavy shields (most hislots) gallente should be heavy armor (most lowslots) and minmatar are a little bit of a mixed bag. their scouts and assaults are quick moving heavy shielders while their logi and 'sluggers are armor to compensate for the laser weapons used by amarr (bad against armor) and amarr have adapted to go a mix between armor and shields favoring armor to compensate for the Explosive and Kinetic damage minny weaponry uses
Caldari are long range, medium damage users, gallente are your up front high damage. an idea would be to reduce their stamina and movement speed and increase sprint speed so they act almost liek their blaster ships. you have a short high speed sprint to get into range allowing use of the blasters. caldari i would drop range and damage slightly on rails and give assault bonus to bring them back up to current levels (as the ships get the range bonus)
if you want to mess about with suits then instead of p**sing off the hardcore lore guys then introduce the much wanted type II utilizing things like the Khanid for amarr with more focus on shields, split minmatar between Thukker and Brutor suits to split game styles, have caldari suits made by two of the leading weapon corporations and same with gallente. split suits between duvolle and creodron depending on the suit type.
i know you've effectivly sh*tcanned this game but at least have decency to put in a bit of effort for those of us who have stuck around and perhaps look at the rich history CCP have made for new eden and the races and give us a bit of variety till the playerbase eventually dies or legion gets an alpha/beta release
Rolling with the punches
|
RedBleach LeSanglant
Hellstorm Inc
League of Infamy
636
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 19:51:00 -
[326] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:
The new premise is a single matrix of racial high/low arrangements and then tactical choices of the other slots (EQ, SA, W, G). The proposed matrix is also intended to be more thematically in line with EVE Online racial slots.
Amarr highest number of low slots
Caldari highest number of high slots
Gallente equal number of highs and lows, preferring lows
Minmatar equal number of highs and lows, preferring highs
Moving forward with few changes without changing the whole layout of every dropsuit is certainly on the table as well. The logi sidearm f.ex. There are other "anomalies" that I would love to discuss, such as STD and ADV logi racial differences.
Of course if you see some errors, please let us know.
Have at it and keep it civil and constructive!
I like the Premise of the changes. I also like equalizing the slots among the races AND equalizing the steps in the tiers.
You asked specifically about the STD and ADV logi racial differences and I would like to speak to that.
LOGI TIER STEPS - CURRENT
AMARR
Standard---2H/2L/2E + Side Arm Start with 9 slots (including LW/Grenade)
Advanced--3H/3L/3E + Side Arm +2 slots
Proto--------3H/4L/3E + Side Arm +1 slot = 12 slot (including LW/GR)
MINMATAR
S- 2H/2L/3E 9 slots
A- 3H/3L/3E +2 slots
P- 4H/4L/4E +3 slots = 14 slot (LW/GR included)
The AMARR suit and the MINMATAR suit are the most acceptable in their current steps up the tier ladder, despite the disparity of slots, because they both start with enough slots to play with. There is adequate front loading of options at the STD level. 2H/2L allow for a decent beginning roll out and allows the player to begin to experiment, but the 2/2 is also not quite enough to feel the impact of a good build unless both slots are double stacked with the same mod, but then the fitting isn't as viable.
For example rolling out with 2 extenders and 1armor plate and one rep plate is a common logi build, not the best but it focuses on defense and being able to take care of yourself with repps, it is survivable but not focused. To get a feel for something having a bit more focus you either need to step up the module level or double up on it. And doing that at the STD level doesn't leave the suit with any other available modules to help balance it out, SO you have to move up to the next level, ADV, to experiment with a viable fit that has more variety. In order to try a CODE Breaker fit with a KINkat or 1plate and 2repps with dmg mods or shield energizers, or whatever.
BUT that only works because the step to ADV brings another 2 module slots.
Here at the ADV build there is enough room to play and feel the effects of the changes and build more survivable suits. The isk cost is manageable as well. IF all the modules are ADV (different discussion as PG/CPU limits don't really allow it) I manage the loss by knowing I can die X number of times in battle before I have to drop down to the STD level or go ISK negative.
While I don't like that the two races end with a different slot count (looking forward to that remedy) they begin with enough slots to play, the ADV tier brings more playability with the room to experiment. The PRO tier and the difference in the jump between the two Suit types with one being 3 slots and the other only 1 slot increase is not good. - For the Amarr it is almost not worth it, but we do it for the PG/CPU. For the Minmatar it is GREAT! a whole new level of options!
On to our other outliers
CALDARI
S- 2H/1L/2E 7 Slots
A- 3H/2L/3E +3 slots
P- 5H/4L/3E +4 slots = 14 Slots
Finally balanced at Proto. But the STD level is not much to work with. It is a scout slot count but with terrible stats, no sidearm, and no grenade! Not a fun build, little survivability and little experimentation options. It is not an soldier logi with a side arm and yet it has a lower slot count, but it is not a pack mule logi either that can carry the equipment like the mimnatar. The STD level really has no place and is quite worthless. The jump to ADV level actually makes the suit viable. At this level it is like its MIN cousin at the STD level. It finally has some slots to experiment with, and enough EQ slots to do some decent Logi work. The ADV and PRO tiers are the only ones that are worth working with as the gimpy stats of the Logi need modules to pad a stat or two and have some survivability.
The jump from ADV to PRO at 4 slots is ridiculous - makes it worth the money for the slots - but ridiculous. This logi suffers because the STD is not enough and the tier progression so great that only higher tiers are viable - it makes the viable builds very expensive to run. ISK disparity in the risk/reward of just being able to run STD.
GALLENTE
S- 0H/2L/3E 7 slots
A- 2H/3L/3E +3 slots
P- 3H/5L/4E +4 slots = 14 slots
WORST STD EVER. Similar to the Caldari the builds only become a viable Logi build at the ADV level, 2 lows is too low for a slot count. AND WHAT A STEP! 3 slots. In fact it is exactly like the Caldari for all intents and purposes of discussion. The build differs in 1 more EQ slot to make it and the Minmatar the only two that can haul anything needed with 4EQ. The gap is too great between the tiers making crossing these tier canyons the only choice to play these races.
(Continues to next post)
The Logi Code. Cross Atu for CPM1 - A logical choice
|
RedBleach LeSanglant
Hellstorm Inc
League of Infamy
636
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 19:53:00 -
[327] - Quote
SOLUTIONS
What we see is that the tier steps are too great in some cases and smooth even steps in other examples.
What I would propose is:
1.All Logi slot counts equalized to 14 slots (despite how the layouts may end up).
2.All Logi suits start with the same slot count.
3.Slot counts should be front loaded .
I suggest 8, 9, or 10 so that the builds can also be variable and the Logi can play with different fitting to see what matches their play style.
4. Each step should be equalized to give a clear sense of progression and advantage.
Meaning that it is +2 slots from STD to ADV and a +2 to PRO or take the +2 then +3. These smaller steps give a clear advantage over the previous tier but are not so significant as to rule out using the tier before it. Yet the shift from STD to PRO, while great, is not so vast as to nullify all options except for PRO suits which is what happens with the Caldari and Gallente models.
Here are my suggestions that follow the above rules:
AMARR (Current)
S- 2H/3L/2E + Side Arm 10 (LW/G)
A- 2H/4L/3E + Side Arm +2
P- 3H/5L/3E + Side Arm +2 = 14
OR
S- 2H/2L/2E + Side Arm 9 (LW/G)
A- 2H/3L/3E + Side Arm +2
P- 3H/5L/3E + Side Arm +3 = 14
CALDARI (Current)
S- 3H/3L/2E 10 (LW/G)
A- 4H/3L/3E +2
P- 5H/4L/3E +2 = 14
OR
S- 3H/2L/2E 9 (LW/G)
A- 4H/2L/3E +2
P- 5H/4L/3E +3 = 14
GALLENTE
S- 2H/3L/3E 10 (LW/G)
A- 3H/4L/3E +2
P- 3H/5L/4E +2 = 14
OR
S- 2H/2L/3E 9 (LW/G)
A- 2H/4L/3E +2
P- 3H/5L/4E +3 = 14
MINMATAR
S- 3H/2L/3E 10 (LW/G)
A- 4H/3L/3E +2
P- 4H/4L/4E +2 = 14
OR
S- 2H/2L/3E 9 (LW/G)
A- 3H/3L/3E +2
P- 4H/4L/4E +3 = 14
Delivers Logis with equal slot counts and keeps them equal in tier movements.
Personally, after looking at the progression it is difficult for me to decide which to take. The 10 slots starting out is more than what I am used to, but it also makes it a very choice suit. The extra open slots starting out would allow more variability and if PG/CPU stayed relatively the same the mods of the same nature (PG/CPU mods) will need to be used, and perhaps that is what the extra slots will be for. Plus the steps from STD to ADV and ADV to PRO suits offer even progression and have clear benefits for use. The canyon between STD and PRO is standardized, even, and is not as great as it was before for some fits.
The 9 slot suit starting out I am familiar with and the step to PRO is a big one but I also wonder if that is best, it may not be because while PRO equipment is the best it the gap in performance may be to large. The +3 from ADV to PRO may be more than what is healthy for balance. It is still not as bad as the +5 or +4 of the current version so at least it is better. But is it Best?
I donGÇÖt know. But this is where IGÇÖve placed my thoughts.
CCP Rattati, what are the anomalies you wanted to discuss?
The Logi Code. Cross Atu for CPM1 - A logical choice
|
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
11429
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 20:09:00 -
[328] - Quote
Spreadsheet proposed Cal scout
STD 3/1
ADV 4/1 (can have just 1 dampener) please change to 3/2 for dampeners. All other scouts can have 2 dampeners at ADV
PRO 4/2
The advanced Cal scout is the only thing I feel is a genuine balance concern with the spreadsheet proposal.
Other than that, I have no serious problems with the proposals, and look forward to them.
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
|
|
CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4561
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 20:16:00 -
[329] - Quote
The variable slot count per tier for the logis specifically. I don't see a reason why we don't equalize slot count per tier this round. Any objections? :)
Thanks for the detailed feedback, it verifies my thoughts.
I would like to discuss having two passive logis that need to defend their placed equipment, AM and CA and two active logis, MM and GA. I.e. trading the CA low for a sidearm.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
|
|
BL4CKST4R
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
2853
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 20:55:00 -
[330] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:The variable slot count per tier for the logis specifically. I don't see a reason why we don't equalize slot count per tier this round. Any objections? :)
Thanks for the detailed feedback, it verifies my thoughts.
I would like to discuss having two passive logis that need to defend their placed equipment, AM and CA and two active logis, MM and GA. I.e. trading the CA low for a sidearm.
They should lose more than one slot for that side arm.
supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 [11] 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |