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Sticky:Hotfix Charlie - Dropsuit Slot Layout Discussion

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 37 post(s)

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4336	Posted - 2014.07.16 15:21:00 - [1] - Quote Hi all, We want to have this formal discussion and get your input. We believe that the community has wanted to have some say on this issue for some time, and now that I am studying this data in detail, some things brush me the wrong way (or my OCD). Dropsuit Slot Layout First table is Current, next table is proposed, and third tracks the difference in slots between the two. We don't need to do any changes to these layouts right now. However, with PG/CPU increases for the Assault class on the horizon, more based on a PG/CPU allotment per slot type, it would be the right timing to swap a high with a low in strategic places, or add missing slots. The new premise is a single matrix of racial high/low arrangements and then tactical choices of the other slots (EQ, SA, W, G). The proposed matrix is also intended to be more thematically in line with EVE Online racial slots. Amarr highest number of low slots Caldari highest number of high slots Gallente equal number of highs and lows, preferring lows Minmatar equal number of highs and lows, preferring highs Moving forward with few changes without changing the whole layout of every dropsuit is certainly on the table as well. The logi sidearm f.ex. There are other "anomalies" that I would love to discuss, such as STD and ADV logi racial differences. Of course if you see some errors, please let us know. Have at it and keep it civil and constructive! "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4352	Posted - 2014.07.16 17:37:00 - [2] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Slot progression in dropsuits between tiers is too pronounced for medium frames. Especially for classes like Logistics. Please Rattati... seriously consider a pseudo-tiercide approach to this to make STD/ADV suits more viable against PRO suits. Even if PRO gear is less worth its price tag, it still will always have a place. Option 1: All tiers have the same number of slots, with progressive CPU/PG. STD suits can fit the same number of modules, just of less quality. This helps even out the power creep in dropsuit tiers and makes the game FAR less about level 5 or go home. Option 2: Reduce the module layout progression to 1 module per tier. Such that you go from 5 STD to 6 ADV to 7 PRO. Moving away from this 4 to 6 to 8 that is currently proposed for Logistics suits and 4 to 5 to 7 that is being proposed for Assaults. Make the medium frame progression similar to how it is for light and heavy suits. Option 1 I think is vastly superior though and would help the NPE if new players could feel they are close to, but not quite, as powerful as veteran players. I also agree that medium frame Amarr suits would benefit from a 2/5 layout to better reinforce their high buffer armor tank style. I hear you, but I want to get started on actual layout standardization first. Option 1 has merit, but is too drastic a change. Option 2 could be done, but these are the current progressions, we are actually not proposing different totals of slots per role per tier. These are the reality, i.e. the 4-6-8 for Logis etc. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4365	Posted - 2014.07.16 20:45:00 - [3] - Quote typo in the top table, the real tables didn't have it "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4365	Posted - 2014.07.16 20:57:00 - [4] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: typo in the top table, the real tables didn't have it I had a feeling that was the case. Thanks for pointing it out. Still 3 and 6 is awesome! "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4367	Posted - 2014.07.16 21:08:00 - [5] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Rattati, my mind is blowing up trying to figure out competitive Gal Assault configurations when Amarr Assault has 2/5 slots. Nothing I can build is competitive, dual tank, armor tank, armor repair, whatever. And I KNOW how to build armor suits, I have analyzed the ever living crap out of armor since Uprising 1.0 along with Arkena Wyrnspire to create the armor buff thread back before 1.4. It's really a matter of make high slot utility modules useful, or Gallente Assault will be useless. I think we need to buff dmg mods a bit. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4395	Posted - 2014.07.17 00:02:00 - [6] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Moving forward with few changes without changing the whole layout of every dropsuit is certainly on the table as well. The logi sidearm f.ex. There are other "anomalies" that I would love to discuss, such as STD and ADV logi racial differences. Have at it and keep it civil and constructive! Please read before posting. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4395	Posted - 2014.07.17 00:09:00 - [7] - Quote not being able to outfit a 2-5 am ass? show me/us the math, how is it radically much better/worse than a 3/4 ga ass? "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4427	Posted - 2014.07.17 09:18:00 - [8] - Quote OK this is literally going nowhere. Can I ask you to only reply with "I like these changes" and see if there is a harmony in those answers. I seem to see a few happy Min Assaults, what about the GA STD and ADV logis who have been shafted out of slots for no reason that I can see? My belief was that players were asking for the slots to make more sense, less duplicate options and more racial flavoring. Such as fewer 3-2, 2-3. I also see a lot of Cals who want to keep their 2 lows to put amor plates or reps, that's really not a playstyle we would design around or cater too. Also keep in mind that Assaults are getting a decent ehp buff and pg/cpu, so don't use the current pg/cpu as a reason to say "no I don't want 4-1. Also keep in mind that we will be buffing dmg mods so a better use for high slots. In the end, we cannot, with slot layout design, stop anyone from doing shield extenders and normal plates. Yes, they will have of ehp, and that is something we are trying to address in Delta with some fitting bonus/efficacy solutions. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4430	Posted - 2014.07.17 11:23:00 - [9] - Quote IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: OK this is literally going nowhere. Disagree. If you need to steer the discussion, do so. You can't bin nine pages of feedback (sure some of it's chaff you have to sort through) just like that and just say "say yes if you agree" and leave it at that. Why would the guys who have put effort in here to try and feedback how something is good or bad continue to do so now? What is it you are asking us to do in your OP? I said list the things you agree with, then I can see if there is a consensus on a few of the changes that we could implement. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4511	Posted - 2014.07.18 23:44:00 - [10] - Quote Please stay on topic as requested and reply with the new slot layouts you agree with, only. Thanks. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"



CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4512	Posted - 2014.07.19 00:00:00 - [11] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Well, I don't think there's much to say about the slots. If the Assault CPU/PG buff is high enough to allow Caldari to use shields without CPU mods, I don't think there will be any issues. Are we getting a spreadsheet about that anytime soon? I would like to theorycraft. Edit: Nevermind, just saw the spreadsheet, will report with results soon. It's already stickied and please note they are based on current layouts. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4561	Posted - 2014.07.19 20:16:00 - [12] - Quote The variable slot count per tier for the logis specifically. I don't see a reason why we don't equalize slot count per tier this round. Any objections? :) Thanks for the detailed feedback, it verifies my thoughts. I would like to discuss having two passive logis that need to defend their placed equipment, AM and CA and two active logis, MM and GA. I.e. trading the CA low for a sidearm. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4565	Posted - 2014.07.19 21:14:00 - [13] - Quote I don't understand the confusion, I originally said I don't like the complete irregularity that the Amarr logi sidearm is, because it obfuscates all true comparisons between the logis. Now, if Caldari logis have a sidearm, and the same number of slots as the Amarr, then there is no singular discrepancy, then there is a reason and we can balance the two combat logis against each other. Just as if we would remove the Amarr sidearm and the CA low, and equalize all the logis at all tiers. I maintain that the dropsuit is such a fundamental item in the dust balance, that slot layouts should be very consistent, logical and not have inherent discrepancies, because those layouts translate into PG/CPU. That's why we are proposing a single matrix of universal dropsuit layouts. And that is also, why the CA ADV scout has 4-1, changing that single one to 3-2 would "break" the whole universal proposal. The differences should be at the role/racial and module/weapon level and that's where our choices become truly meaningful. In the end, none of these changes are necessary, they have been this way for a long time and maybe they shouldn't be touched. I am sure we can find other things to balance. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4579	Posted - 2014.07.20 10:36:00 - [14] - Quote It was like that when I go here . On all the other comments, I am re-convinced, the matrix will be revisited, maybe with some footnotes that allow for formal exceptions to the rule. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4581	Posted - 2014.07.20 12:08:00 - [15] - Quote Assault should be better slayers, that is the only way to motivate people out of slayer logis. amarr slayer logis are not a huge issue right now anyway. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4638	Posted - 2014.07.21 21:10:00 - [16] - Quote Everyone, we need a day to work on some updated designs. Stay tuned. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4661	Posted - 2014.07.22 23:45:00 - [17] - Quote And we are back. TLDR; Charlie: New slot layout adopted for Sentinels and Assaults, with corresponding PG/CPU adaptations plus PG/CPU buff for Assaults and reduction for Sentinels. Universal slot layout matrix for Caldari changed from 4-1 to 3-2. Now, based on your consolidated feedback, The standardized slot layout matrix was pretty well received, yet overall there were the following worries: 1)Caldari Scouts not having 2 low slots at ADV, so couldnGÇÿt effectively dampen like the other three scouts a.Scouts will be standardized and revised in Delta using the matrix. b.Therefore, no changes to Scouts in Charlie, but KinCat, CodeBreaker and Nova Knife PG reduced so Minmatar will be able to fit with abandon. 2)Caldari Sentinels not having 2 low slots at PRO, so canGÇÿt fit an armor rep and regulator (for example) a.Easy fix to this is to change the matrix to 3-2 instead of 4-1 for Caldari 5 slots. b.Sentinel slots need to be changed in Charlie with corresponding PG/CPU changes. c.Sentinels then get a fitting bonus to Heavy weapons and a moderate reduction of PG/CPU in Charlie. 3)Logistics, Amarr side arm and Caldari low slot at PRO a.Our proposal is to give both the sidearm at the cost of a single slot, not two as in the case of the Amarr. The Caldari will trade a low slot for the sidearm and the Amarr will trade an equipment slot for the sidearm. Not until Delta though. 4)Logistics, Gallente and Caldari STD and ADV to have equal total slot count as other Logistics a. These are scheduled for Delta as well as PG/CPU revisions if necessary. 5)Commandos a.No changes in Charlie, new layout according to matrix in Delta and corresponding tweaks of PG/CPU. 6)Assault a.Very few grievances, if at all, with the new the new Assault suit layout, so will be adopted fully in Charlie b.Assault will move to a 4-6-8 layout of slots, gaining one high/low slot at both ADV and PRO. This standardizes Mediums and gives Assault a huge boost towards being a viable options in competitive surroundings. c.Assault will also get the same fitting bonus to Grenades. d.Assault will be getting a considerable buff to PG/CPU, shield tanking will be addressed but we are also looking at bringing energizers and rechargers down and trading for a small PG increase in Delta e. Assault will gain 150 ehp. Please give us feedback on this, and this time please stay on topic. Thanks. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4661	Posted - 2014.07.22 23:53:00 - [18] - Quote Brokerib wrote: stuff Thanks Rattati. Looks very good, only disapointed that some of the changes are being pushed back to Delta. Well, we never intended to change all the layouts in Charlie, we wanted to discuss holistically whether this was the right path, and then take the necessary steps to get there, starting with Assaults and Sentinels. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4676	Posted - 2014.07.23 09:17:00 - [19] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: Caldari sentinel should keep 4-1 slot layout at proto to see if shield changes help it's survival. 2 lows would more than likely translates to 2 plates ( unless you want to run around like alldin ). Having no armor reps was the inherent worry, so regulator and repper capability were widely requested. Having only one low makes you choose, and in many cases the rep would be preferred, making the shield tank less viable. Just my thoughts, am I way off? "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4676	Posted - 2014.07.23 09:36:00 - [20] - Quote Francois Sanchez wrote: Personally I would prefer high slots and a regulator. There should be logis to rep you most of the time We can't really design around having logis around... "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"



CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4677	Posted - 2014.07.23 09:50:00 - [21] - Quote FabryX10 wrote: @Rattati: I like new assault layouts instead of previous proposal. Just one thing... I think that logis should not have sidearm. Remove sidearm and add 1 equip to caldari and amarr logis. You will find that highly contested. We are hoping the combat logi designs and choice will tell us something about such player demand and desires. With assaults being buffed, there should be no worry about another dawn of the slayer logis. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4677	Posted - 2014.07.23 09:54:00 - [22] - Quote Francois Sanchez wrote: And looking at the assault buff, I'm now a bit worried about commandos. With 8 slots and 150 extra EHP, assaults can easily become harder to kill than commandos while taking 2 damage mods to compensate commandos natural bonus. I am hoping Cyrus and protofits can help the community again, so you can theorycraft properly. We will have a final review before we push the button. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4681	Posted - 2014.07.23 12:14:00 - [23] - Quote We would rather cut the ehp buff than the additional slots, we feel it underlines the versatility aspect of the assault, spec for the situation. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4684	Posted - 2014.07.23 13:56:00 - [24] - Quote Here are new proposals for PG/CPU numbers that take into account revised slot layouts for Assaults and Sentinels. These are quite extensively tested and should allow, with all skills maxed to fit quite well. But nothing is better than players proving you wrong, so take a look and comment. Feedback that was taken into account that 1) Amarr had been given a similar boost, while they always had more PG/CPU but fewer slots. With the extra slot, such a discrepancy should not continue. 2) Caldari simply should not be forced to take a CPU mod, unless doing absolutely crazy things CPU wise. Caldari should now be able to fit competitively. 3) Even after the first proposed numbers, the consistent feedback was, Sentinels can still fit anything and still have space. We took another deep look and tweaked. Caldari Sentinels and Minmatar should also be more viable compared to their sentinel brethren now. New PG/CPU Assaults and Sentinels "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4684	Posted - 2014.07.23 14:18:00 - [25] - Quote Buffing ehp will be the final decision, but if new slot theory crafting suggests it will be too much, then we can happily reconsider. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4686	Posted - 2014.07.23 14:27:00 - [26] - Quote Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: FabryX10 wrote: @Rattati: I like new assault layouts instead of previous proposal. Just one thing... I think that logis should not have sidearm. Remove sidearm and add 1 equip to caldari and amarr logis. You will find that highly contested. We are hoping the combat logi designs and choice will tell us something about such player demand and desires. With assaults being buffed, there should be no worry about another dawn of the slayer logis. personally the logis should just have a light weapon. its how it always was and anyone who is a real logi and playedthe class since the start wont mind. we're used to just havign a single weapon. seems the guys who want to use the logis as slayers are the ones doign the whining about sidearms beign taken. if you want to reduce slayer logis then harsh steps have to be taken. drop pg/cpu of logis and increase the equipment bonus. same with assaults and light wepaons. to cut down on heavies and scouts with light wepaons incrwase fittign requirements of light wepaons and increase the bonus assaults get. that way you have a choice of usign a gun on a different suit but you're persuaded to use the weapon tier to th esuit. its liek in EVE the Raven can use heavy missile launchers vs smaller enemies but it gets skill bonus to cruise/torp launchers. same as the cloak. you can fit a cloak on a commando. you cant fit much else on it but you can if you wanted to. there are hundreds of game mechanics in eve that should have been in dust from the start and it would have been a far better game for it and it still could. peopel will whine that it would make it complicated but there are already complicated issues in dust anyway and we get around that by the experienced players passing info down through word of mouth and player written guides on the forums. its what has made the eve community stick around for 11yrs whereas dust struggled to last a year out of beta Everyone, please do not discuss logi sidearms any more. It's a Delta at best discussion. Thanks! "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4692	Posted - 2014.07.23 16:08:00 - [27] - Quote At four prototype equipment slots and a 25% fitting bonus, there is a hidden 40-60 CPU buffer for Logistics, I am not too worried but we have Delta to make further tweaks. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4706	Posted - 2014.07.23 19:51:00 - [28] - Quote Cyrus Grevare wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Francois Sanchez wrote: And looking at the assault buff, I'm now a bit worried about commandos. With 8 slots and 150 extra EHP, assaults can easily become harder to kill than commandos while taking 2 damage mods to compensate commandos natural bonus. I am hoping Cyrus and protofits can help the community again, so you can theorycraft properly. We will have a final review before we push the button. And updated o7 I updated the slot layout, revised PG/CPU, implemented the Grenade reduction for Assault class and heavy weapon reduction for Heavy weapons in the Sentinel class. A couple of questions though, Slot changes for Assault and Sentinel are confirmed, what about the rest of the classes? I see the gdoc has changes for the Commandos, Logistics and Scout classes, do I ignore these or are they also slated for Charlie? (included them in my recent update to the site) Amarr Logistics have the new slot proposal + sidearm slots giving a 9 slot count to them. Can you share how that 150ehp is split for the races?, I could update that as well in the site. Probably not a good idea to put it into proto, players can add that manually. Using the current ehp split, would look like this at 150 ehp, again, to be re-evaluated based on community feedback. ArmorShield AM 100 50 CA 55 95 GA 95 55 MM 71 79 "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4706	Posted - 2014.07.23 19:53:00 - [29] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: Cyrus Grevare wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Cyrus Grevare wrote: Killer's Coys wrote: Cal ADV is : 4/2 and pro : 5/3 I'm using the gdoc at the start of this thread either it has a mistake, or that layout you mention is somewhere else (?) or I'm just getting lines mixed still don't see it. Are you using another source? http://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BzF7A13JDvYo40hyj0t7g2kgRnqNq9jFepnq5ztNUY0/edit#gid=0 Thanks, but that's only PG/CPU, I think so far that one is correct, I can't find yet the slot layouts you mentioned. I don't think Rattati has updated the original spreadsheet. You can see it says 8 high and low slots for Assault but then looking at the actual layout suggests it is still 7 (ex. 5/2 for cal assault). Waiting on Rattati. Sorry, didn't see where the error was coming from, but yes, the latest spreadsheet overrules the original. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4709	Posted - 2014.07.23 20:38:00 - [30] - Quote The Eristic wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: We would rather cut the ehp buff than the additional slots, we feel it underlines the versatility aspect of the assault, spec for the situation. An 8th slot doesn't underline versatility, it removes the necessity of choice in suit building, further enables, nay, encourages dual tanking and destroys the lore-appropriate racial alignments the 7-slot reworking was intended to give us. You have to make people make choices, or they'll go the easy route every time. See every FotM ever for evidence. There WILL be 1200+ HP Proto Assaults stomping Pubs (which, btw, will further marginalize Laser weaponry). The Amarr at 3-5 will be able hit 1300 and carry a Boundless CR BEFORE the additional 150 HP buff, and Gal won't be too far behind with greater mobility and built-in reps. Toss in a logi friend and the Assaults are now into Sentinel territory. Even if a suit decides to give up a primary tank slot for a non-HP mod, the additional secondary tank slot makes compensating for it that much easier, making the decision less meaningful. Cut the slot. Make choices matter. Surely trading a slot for 150 ehp is less tanking in theory, seeing as one slot is at max 135 hp. And those who don't want hp can pick something else, so more choice, right? If assault become the new FOTM, we will be monitoring the situation, but right now it's everything but the assault. Reiterating, that the ehp is completely up for discussion, let's wait for some protofit FOTM examples that make all other suits useless "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"



CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4711	Posted - 2014.07.23 23:21:00 - [31] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I don't think assaults should get an 8th slot, given they're getting a +150 HP buff. Keep the HP buff, but do not add the new module slot at proto. Keep the advanced tier slot though, closing the gap between proto and lower tier is a good thing; would really like to see an extra module slot at standard as well. 5/6/7 slot progression please. Tried this Amarr assault fit on protofits (link here http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/759/5678 ). I added 150 to the armor, and factored the skills. Shields: 120 x 1.25 (shield skill bonus) = 150 Armor: 240 + 150 = 390 x 1.25 (armor skill bonus) = 487.5 Total eHP with skills before mods: 637.5 Obviously these calculations may not be correct because I don't know how the +150 HP will be distributed between shields and armor. Now add some plates. For the sake of being conservative with HP estimates, lets only use ferroscales. 4 complex ferroscales and 1 armor repairer. Complex ferroscales are 75, and with skills they are each 82.5. 82.5 x 4 is 330, add that to our previous total, and now the eHP is 967.5; this is a conservative estimate using low HP plates (ferroscales), and already its clear that the assault will be very tanky. A simpler way to illustrate the point: without the +150 HP, the fit I linked would have 780 eHP, now just add 150 HP, and now you have 930 eHP. Whatever methodology you use to calculate it, its too much. Once again I remind that this is just a conservative estimate, and regular plates would lead to even higher eHP numbers. This is all with 7 module slots, not 8 yet. An 8th would be too much Assaults will become heavies with an 8th. No extra slot at proto please. An Amarr Commando with 3 ferros is 1100 ehp and a 5 ferro gk logi is at 750 ehp. Seems like 950 for a stacked ferro Amarr Assault is right between them as intended. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4712	Posted - 2014.07.23 23:30:00 - [32] - Quote True Adamance wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I don't think assaults should get an 8th slot, given they're getting a +150 HP buff. Keep the HP buff, but do not add the new module slot at proto. Keep the advanced tier slot though, closing the gap between proto and lower tier is a good thing; would really like to see an extra module slot at standard as well. 5/6/7 slot progression please. Tried this Amarr assault fit on protofits (link here http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/759/5678 ). I added 150 to the armor, and factored the skills. Shields: 120 x 1.25 (shield skill bonus) = 150 Armor: 240 + 150 = 390 x 1.25 (armor skill bonus) = 487.5 Total eHP with skills before mods: 637.5 Obviously these calculations may not be correct because I don't know how the +150 HP will be distributed between shields and armor. Now add some plates. For the sake of being conservative with HP estimates, lets only use ferroscales. 4 complex ferroscales and 1 armor repairer. Complex ferroscales are 75, and with skills they are each 82.5. 82.5 x 4 is 330, add that to our previous total, and now the eHP is 967.5; this is a conservative estimate using low HP plates (ferroscales), and already its clear that the assault will be very tanky. A simpler way to illustrate the point: without the +150 HP, the fit I linked would have 780 eHP, now just add 150 HP, and now you have 930 eHP. Whatever methodology you use to calculate it, its too much. Once again I remind that this is just a conservative estimate, and regular plates would lead to even higher eHP numbers. This is all with 7 module slots, not 8 yet. An 8th would be too much Assaults will become heavies with an 8th. No extra slot at proto please. An Amarr Commando with 3 ferros is 1100 ehp and a 5 ferro gk logi is at 750 ehp. Seems like 950 for a stacked ferro Amarr Assault is right between them as intended. I pity to poor fool who runs 3 plates on an Amarr Commando..... I'm kind of concerned at the moment..... EHP values just seems to be growing higher and higher.... slot distributions grow ever more plentiful...... however I looks forwards to the changes as always....might log back in for Charlie. People are playing the maximum ehp game, regardless of viability. While assaults can't get more than sentinels, then there can not be ehp power creep. However, we may need to intervene with normal plate fitting increases, the raw ehp stacking is not what we want for Dust. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4712	Posted - 2014.07.23 23:31:00 - [33] - Quote The dark cloud wrote: Didnt saw that you changed the slot layout on caldari sentinels. 3 high and 2 low? Seems a bit weird but on the other hand i can achieve a recharge delay of about 1.64s with 2 complex regulators and a 0.47s depleted delay. I agree, shield tanking is not only about high slots (read extender stacking), and if someone wants some reps, then a reactive, or rep module plus a regulator is nifty. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4718	Posted - 2014.07.23 23:42:00 - [34] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: True Adamance wrote: I'm kind of concerned at the moment..... EHP values just seems to be growing higher and higher... MISSING Name: Breach Shotgun Last Seen: Chromosome sidearms are Delta, as I write this I realize they are Lights , ok still in Delta "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4729	Posted - 2014.07.24 14:19:00 - [35] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: True Adamance wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I don't think assaults should get an 8th slot, given they're getting a +150 HP buff. Keep the HP buff, but do not add the new module slot at proto. Keep the advanced tier slot though, closing the gap between proto and lower tier is a good thing; would really like to see an extra module slot at standard as well. 5/6/7 slot progression please. Tried this Amarr assault fit on protofits (link here http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/759/5678 ). I added 150 to the armor, and factored the skills. Shields: 120 x 1.25 (shield skill bonus) = 150 Armor: 240 + 150 = 390 x 1.25 (armor skill bonus) = 487.5 Total eHP with skills before mods: 637.5 Obviously these calculations may not be correct because I don't know how the +150 HP will be distributed between shields and armor. Now add some plates. For the sake of being conservative with HP estimates, lets only use ferroscales. 4 complex ferroscales and 1 armor repairer. Complex ferroscales are 75, and with skills they are each 82.5. 82.5 x 4 is 330, add that to our previous total, and now the eHP is 967.5; this is a conservative estimate using low HP plates (ferroscales), and already its clear that the assault will be very tanky. A simpler way to illustrate the point: without the +150 HP, the fit I linked would have 780 eHP, now just add 150 HP, and now you have 930 eHP. Whatever methodology you use to calculate it, its too much. Once again I remind that this is just a conservative estimate, and regular plates would lead to even higher eHP numbers. This is all with 7 module slots, not 8 yet. An 8th would be too much Assaults will become heavies with an 8th. No extra slot at proto please. An Amarr Commando with 3 ferros is 1100 ehp and a 5 ferro gk logi is at 750 ehp. Seems like 950 for a stacked ferro Amarr Assault is right between them as intended. I pity to poor fool who runs 3 plates on an Amarr Commando..... I'm kind of concerned at the moment..... EHP values just seems to be growing higher and higher.... slot distributions grow ever more plentiful...... however I looks forwards to the changes as always....might log back in for Charlie. People are playing the maximum ehp game, regardless of viability. While assaults can't get more than sentinels, then there can not be ehp power creep. However, we may need to intervene with normal plate fitting increases, the raw ehp stacking is not what we want for Dust. Your commando example replying to my earlier comment I don't think was a fair example given that I did not use all low slots for plates in my assault example, my assault example had an armor repairer, while your commando example did not. I wasn't playing the maximum eHP game, I used an armor repairer (so all low slots weren't for HP tanking) and only ferroscales for a conservative estimate on a viable fit (a fit I would actually use). Since we're playing max eHP, I will join in. No weapons, more equipment, only HP mods. I believe you stated before that the 150 HP for Amarr would be distributed 100 to armor, and 50 to shields. Shields: 120 + 50 = 170 x 1.25 (shield skill bonus) = 212.5 Armor: 240 + 100 = 340 x 1.25 (armor skill bonus) = 425 Total eHP with skills before mods: 637.5 Now add: +3 complex shield extenders. With the skill bonus, each extender is 72.6, all 3 total is 217.8. +5 complex armor plate. With skill bonuses, each is 148.5, all total is 594 Add it all up, you get 1,449.3 Here is the protofits link to make sure it all fits. Now, going to do the same maximum HP test on a Amarr commando ak.0. Just like with the assault example, I will fill it to the brim with complex plates and complex extenders. No armor repairers, or anything else. It all adds up to 1368.1, the commando now has a lesser HP ceiling than the assault. Here is the protofits link. Anyway, if either the 8th slot, or the HP had to go, I say that the HP should definitely stay while the 8th slot should definitely go. The slot raises the gap between standard and proto even higher (bad), while the HP buff would effect all tiers equally (good). I would also be fine if the HP buff was less, like 100 perhaps. The Amarr fit you shared can't fit a weapon. The commando can. Not exactly comparable nor viable. With a proto scrambler this AK max ehp fit is approx 20-30 PG over capacity. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4796	Posted - 2014.07.25 12:21:00 - [36] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: I got the impression Ratatti was referring to plates, not reactive or ferroscale, for a pg increase. Until he confirms otherwise, I'm going to assume he meant -all- plates because they are -all- plates. "The path is clear however, this overemphasis of eHP buffing has to be countered, simply by increasing PG of plates, it is obvious and imminent." Even then, I'm not exactly for increasing the PG on plates under the pretense that "EHP tanking has to be countered" - if anything, it just goes to show me that utility modules need to be more appealing and that there is some severe problems with fitting diversity. If the counter to fitting armor plates and shield extenders is making armor plates harder to fit, then we've made a severe over-sight as to what can be done about the high slot problem in the first place. So unless we want to combat that by making Armor Tankers really slow, melee focused or really slow, with half-decent scan precision and [redacted] range... You can't ask for Armor Tankers to fit anything besides shield/damage mods because the alternatives (Myrofibral and Precision Enhancers) just aren't worth their salt. You're likely never going to benefit from them because a) If you're in melee range, something is terribly wrong. b) If you're within that scan range, something is terribly wrong. The only way you're going to stop someone from EHP tanking is if the utility modules in their off-slot (the slots that don't utilize their preferred tanking) are more appealing. We just buffed Reactives and Ferroscales, why would they be included? Brick tanking means maximum hp, and those two have less than half the hp as the Armor Plates. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4848	Posted - 2014.07.25 22:52:00 - [37] - Quote We will do final testing and the result will be in the draft of the consolidated changes, pre-patchnotes if you will. I thank you for the feedback, everyone who participated in a civil and constructive manner. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"