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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 37 post(s) |
Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
6326
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Posted - 2014.07.16 20:17:00 -
[1] - Quote
It's interesting, absolutely, but I have a feeling the disparity in module placement is going to shine like a lightbulb. I have a feeling that a lot of Minmatar Players are going to be hurting for something to put in the high slots if the resources (PG/CPU) are too low as shield/damage modules are usually very very costly.
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Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
6362
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Posted - 2014.07.20 11:53:00 -
[2] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:The variable slot count per tier for the logis specifically. I don't see a reason why we don't equalize slot count per tier this round. Any objections? :)
Thanks for the detailed feedback, it verifies my thoughts.
I would like to discuss having two passive logis that need to defend their placed equipment, AM and CA and two active logis, MM and GA. I.e. trading the CA low for a sidearm.
My whole problem with this concept is that you assume that those passive logis will defend their placed equipment, instead of using the advantages given to them to abandon the equipment entirely and slay.
If the player dies, the bonus to their equipment is lost - so there certainly is incentive to hang-back behind the frontline if a support Logi wants the best use out of his equipment. They'd have to go and place all the equipment down again or their bonus is entirely arbitrary, but if you consider that, I can understand that a lot of players would just forgo that concern entirely and build their Logi solely for combat with the equipment as an afterthought. A sidearm only supports that ideal. So my questions are:
a) I'd like to know what your plans are to discourage the above behavior, if we are sticking with the two passive logis having sidearms?
b) What are the barriers as to why we can't have their bonus apply after death if they continue to use the same suit?
c) Why is this considered a better alternative than providing Logistics more options to use equipment overall instead of just the one (i.e: cross-racial bonuses)?
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Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
6364
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Posted - 2014.07.20 13:58:00 -
[3] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Assault should be better slayers, that is the only way to motivate people out of slayer logis. amarr slayer logis are not a huge issue right now anyway.
Well, that vaguely answers one question.
Sure, Amarr Logis aren't big slayers right now but it's such an isolated case... The Amarr Assault -does- have a really good bonus that pretty much everyone can agree makes it a much better slayer than the Amarr Logi, even with the sidearm.
But consider, if you will, what's going to happen if the Caldari Logistics gets a sidearm when compared to the Caldari Assault. Based on your proposed slot layouts and numbers for Hotfix Charlie, the Cal Logi has one more low and two more equipment slots (proto level) on top of having better CPU/PG.
Assuming all skills level 5 and both fit a (proto) Rail Rifle and Magsec combo, the Assault's bonus saves 30 CPU and 5 PG in cost between the two of them. But on the other hand, the Caldari Logi has 43 CPU and 17 more PG than the Caldari Assault, even with the Hotfix Charlie stats (a 13 CPU/12 PG difference).
So who really saves here? If I make equipment my last priority, the Caldari Logi already has better fitting across the board (more slots, better resources) than the Cal Assault does, even with the Assaults' bonus to weapon fitting.
So the Logi beats the Assault on resources/fitting. What about EHP and Speed?
Assault has 38 more shields and 37 more armor. But hey, Cal Logi got an extra low slot, so no big deal right?
Speed? Talking about a 0.3m/s difference.
Comparing them side by side, I still think that the Caldari Logi is the better slayer here. EDIT: Please, someone sanity check me here if you feel that I'm wrong - maybe I'm not looking at this from the right light.
EDIT: The point that I'm trying to make here is that, yes, Assaults should be better Logis and it's -one way- to make encourage the slayer Logis to use Assaults instead; but the current proposal(s) don't seem quite enough. Personally, I'd prefer to make Logis more supportive instead of just defaulting to giving them more combat options and hoping they use it responsibly.
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Aeon Amadi for CPM1
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Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
6366
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Posted - 2014.07.20 16:56:00 -
[4] - Quote
Nirwanda Vaughns wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Assault should be better slayers the main issue i see with the gallente assault vs gal logi is the armor hp. my gal logi can have 3 complex DM, 730 armor with nearly 10hps regen, 4 equipment (3 of which complex) and a proto firearm and a grendae. even with the fitting bonus the gallente assault is pretty pathetic in comparison. maybe the hi/lo slot allocation of assaults and logi's should be switched? because the 4 low on gal assault and 5 low on gal logi have always felt wrong since Uprising first came out. to fix the logi vs assault usage it would also help to drop PG/CPU of logis but raise the equipment bonus to 10% per level so a logi benefits from using equipment and influence them more in their usage. as for the amarr logi same again. if you're not using a laser based weapon then the logi is a far superior suit with a KK rail fitted. you still get the sidearm as well as 3 equipment slots for all your needs. you can carry a stash of rep hives to heal yourself and supply your own ammo if needed. the Amarr logi is almost a Type II assault suit than a logi. logis need more persuasion to use equipment instead of use it as a slayer which is why i feel raising equipment bonus to 10% per level and dropping PG/CPU would benefit more than hi/lo slot reallocation and balance.
Problem with just switching the slot layouts though is that the Logi's have the higher CPU/PG, so they have an easier time outfitting their suit even with the slots. If you switch them, the Assault has even more slots that they can't fit all the way because they naturally have less resources to do so. The issue comes into play as to what those slots are being used for and, that in mind, I like the idea of reducing CPU/PG on the Log in favor of increasing it's available bonus.
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Aeon Amadi for CPM1
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Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
6367
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Posted - 2014.07.20 20:37:00 -
[5] - Quote
Skylight Atoma wrote:Logi suits HAVE to have more pg/cpu because equipment fittings are so high and you're fitting more things than an assault. Comparing the spare fitting on racial medium suits really doesn't mean much because of the bonuses on each suit.
You also have to remember that logi suits get no damage bonuses of any sort so it doesn't matter what weapon you throw on there. So what happens is you see logis fitting the cheapest weapon types. Combat Rifles, Swarm Launchers (more expensive but good utility), militia/basic shotguns, and SMGs.
I believe I saw a dev mention they would be in favor of trading a low slot for the sidearm slot, so it's not going to be as OP as you think (it wouldn't even be OP in the grand scheme of DUST how it is currently or when assault gets fixed.)
Slot layouts and fitting resource changes alone are not going to fix assaults, it's not the root of the problem.
Quite the contrary, Logistics do -NOT- have to have more PG/CPU... They can have the same amount of PG/CPU as Assaults and just have better reductions from their bonus, if your main concern is the equipment resource costs being high. And yes, I'd argue that the spare room means quite a bit if only because of those bonuses. As I described earlier, the benefits on the weapon fitting for the assault don't stack up to the amount of extra PG/CPU that the logistics already has; you're still coming out on top with the Logistics, bonuses considered.
And uhh.... Assaults don't get damage bonuses either... If you're assuming that the Assaults are getting a damage bonus than you might want to take another look at Assaults  . I don't know of any Logistics that use SMGs by default and Combat Rifles aren't preferred just because of their cheap resource costs, they're pretty effective despite that.
Where was it mentioned that they were going to trade a low slot for the sidearm? I was under the impression it was an equipment slot.
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Aeon Amadi for CPM1
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Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
6393
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Posted - 2014.07.22 23:56:00 -
[6] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:And we are back.
TLDR;
Charlie: New slot layout adopted for Sentinels and Assaults, with corresponding PG/CPU adaptations plus PG/CPU buff for Assaults and reduction for Sentinels. Universal slot layout matrix for Caldari changed from 4-1 to 3-2.
Now, based on your consolidated feedback,
The standardized slot layout matrix was pretty well received, yet overall there were the following worries:
1)Caldari Scouts not having 2 low slots at ADV, so couldnGÇÿt effectively dampen like the other three scouts
a.Scouts will be standardized and revised in Delta using the matrix.
b.Therefore, no changes to Scouts in Charlie, but KinCat, CodeBreaker and Nova Knife PG reduced so Minmatar will be able to fit with abandon.
2)Caldari Sentinels not having 2 low slots at PRO, so canGÇÿt fit an armor rep and regulator (for example)
a.Easy fix to this is to change the matrix to 3-2 instead of 4-1 for Caldari 5 slots.
b.Sentinel slots need to be changed in Charlie with corresponding PG/CPU changes.
c.Sentinels then get a fitting bonus to Heavy weapons and a moderate reduction of PG/CPU in Charlie.
3)Logistics, Amarr side arm and Caldari low slot at PRO
a.Our proposal is to give both the sidearm at the cost of a single slot, not two as in the case of the Amarr. The Caldari will trade a low slot for the sidearm and the Amarr will trade an equipment slot for the sidearm. Not until Delta though.
4)Logistics, Gallente and Caldari STD and ADV to have equal total slot count as other Logistics
a. These are scheduled for Delta as well as PG/CPU revisions if necessary.
5)Commandos
a.No changes in Charlie, new layout according to matrix in Delta and corresponding tweaks of PG/CPU.
6)Assault
a.Very few grievances, if at all, with the new the new Assault suit layout, so will be adopted fully in Charlie
b.Assault will move to a 4-6-8 layout of slots, gaining one high/low slot at both ADV and PRO. This standardizes Mediums and gives Assault a huge boost towards being a viable options in competitive surroundings.
c.Assault will also get the same fitting bonus to Grenades.
d.Assault will be getting a considerable buff to PG/CPU, shield tanking will be addressed but we are also looking at bringing energizers and rechargers down and trading for a small PG increase in Delta
e. Assault will gain 150 ehp.
Please give us feedback on this, and this time please stay on topic. Thanks.
I like the changes to Assaults/Sentinels, will hopefully add more variety in the dedicated combat roles in the game.
Love the consideration toward Shield Energizers/Rechargers getting another pass on fitting cost, that will hopefully encourage their use over extenders.
Love the reduction to fitting cost on utility modules and though it was intended for the Minmatar, I have a feeling it will help add diversity all around (assuming that the PG reductions were to the modules and not a bonus to the scout).
I am, however, still adamant in my belief that Logistics need another dedicated pass and have proper bonus application implemented.
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Aeon Amadi for CPM1
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Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
6414
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Posted - 2014.07.24 18:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:I got the impression Ratatti was referring to plates, not reactive or ferroscale, for a pg increase.
Until he confirms otherwise, I'm going to assume he meant -all- plates because they are -all- plates.
"The path is clear however, this overemphasis of eHP buffing has to be countered, simply by increasing PG of plates, it is obvious and imminent."
Even then, I'm not exactly for increasing the PG on plates under the pretense that "EHP tanking has to be countered" - if anything, it just goes to show me that utility modules need to be more appealing and that there is some severe problems with fitting diversity. If the counter to fitting armor plates and shield extenders is making armor plates harder to fit, then we've made a severe over-sight as to what can be done about the high slot problem in the first place.
So unless we want to combat that by making Armor Tankers really slow, melee focused or really slow, with half-decent scan precision and [redacted] range... You can't ask for Armor Tankers to fit anything besides shield/damage mods because the alternatives (Myrofibral and Precision Enhancers) just aren't worth their salt. You're likely never going to benefit from them because a) If you're in melee range, something is terribly wrong. b) If you're within that scan range, something is terribly wrong.
The only way you're going to stop someone from EHP tanking is if the utility modules in their off-slot (the slots that don't utilize their preferred tanking) are more appealing.
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