The variable slot count per tier for the logis specifically. I don't see a reason why we don't equalize slot count per tier this round. Any objections? :)

Thanks for the detailed feedback, it verifies my thoughts.

I would like to discuss having two passive logis that need to defend their placed equipment, AM and CA and two active logis, MM and GA. I.e. trading the CA low for a sidearm.

I don't understand the confusion, I originally said I don't like the complete irregularity that the Amarr logi sidearm is, because it obfuscates all true comparisons between the logis.

Now, if Caldari logis have a sidearm, and the same number of slots as the Amarr, then there is no singular discrepancy, then there is a reason and we can balance the two combat logis against each other.

Just as if we would remove the Amarr sidearm and the CA low, and equalize all the logis at all tiers.

I maintain that the dropsuit is such a fundamental item in the dust balance, that slot layouts should be very consistent, logical and not have inherent discrepancies, because those layouts translate into PG/CPU. That's why we are proposing a single matrix of universal dropsuit layouts. And that is also, why the CA ADV scout has 4-1, changing that single one to 3-2 would "break" the whole universal proposal.

The differences should be at the role/racial and module/weapon level and that's where our choices become truly meaningful.

In the end, none of these changes are necessary, they have been this way for a long time and maybe they shouldn't be touched. I am sure we can find other things to balance.

I think it works if the Cal logi gets a nice chunk of its cpu nerfed a year ago back.(shield based suit)

Without cpu buff it needs the low.(for a chip)

With more base cpu and a sidearm there would be less armor tanking Cal logis as from the looks of it the Cal assault may start looking more attractive if it's shields get more effective.

The variable slot count per tier for the logis specifically. I don't see a reason why we don't equalize slot count per tier this round. Any objections? :)

Thanks for the detailed feedback, it verifies my thoughts.

I would like to discuss having two passive logis that need to defend their placed equipment, AM and CA and two active logis, MM and GA. I.e. trading the CA low for a sidearm.

I don't understand the confusion, I originally said I don't like the complete irregularity that the Amarr logi sidearm is, because it obfuscates all true comparisons between the logis.

Now, if Caldari logis have a sidearm, and the same number of slots as the Amarr, then there is no singular discrepancy, then there is a reason and we can balance the two combat logis against each other.

Just as if we would remove the Amarr sidearm and the CA low, and equalize all the logis at all tiers.

I maintain that the dropsuit is such a fundamental item in the dust balance, that slot layouts should be very consistent, logical and not have inherent discrepancies, because those layouts translate into PG/CPU.
...
The differences should be at the role/racial and module/weapon level and that's where our choices become truly meaningful.

In the end, none of these changes are necessary, they have been this way for a long time and maybe they shouldn't be touched. I am sure we can find other things to balance.

I don't understand the confusion, I originally said I don't like the complete irregularity that the Amarr logi sidearm is, because it obfuscates all true comparisons between the logis.

Now, if Caldari logis have a sidearm, and the same number of slots as the Amarr, then there is no singular discrepancy, then there is a reason and we can balance the two combat logis against each other.

Just as if we would remove the Amarr sidearm and the CA low, and equalize all the logis at all tiers.

I maintain that the dropsuit is such a fundamental item in the dust balance, that slot layouts should be very consistent, logical and not have inherent discrepancies, because those layouts translate into PG/CPU. That's why we are proposing a single matrix of universal dropsuit layouts. And that is also, why the CA ADV scout has 4-1, changing that single one to 3-2 would "break" the whole universal proposal.

The differences should be at the role/racial and module/weapon level and that's where our choices become truly meaningful.

In the end, none of these changes are necessary, they have been this way for a long time and maybe they shouldn't be touched. I am sure we can find other things to balance.

It was like that when I go here .


On all the other comments, I am re-convinced, the matrix will be revisited, maybe with some footnotes that allow for formal exceptions to the rule.

It was like that when I go here .


On all the other comments, I am re-convinced, the matrix will be revisited, maybe with some footnotes that allow for formal exceptions to the rule.

The variable slot count per tier for the logis specifically. I don't see a reason why we don't equalize slot count per tier this round. Any objections? :)

Thanks for the detailed feedback, it verifies my thoughts.

I would like to discuss having two passive logis that need to defend their placed equipment, AM and CA and two active logis, MM and GA. I.e. trading the CA low for a sidearm.

Assault should be better slayers, that is the only way to motivate people out of slayer logis. amarr slayer logis are not a huge issue right now anyway.

By how much though?
How much better do you intend Assaults being?

Assault should be better slayers, that is the only way to motivate people out of slayer logis. amarr slayer logis are not a huge issue right now anyway.

Yes, they should.

But your cpu changes for cal assault...need looking at.

Put a basic cpu mod on the proto cal assault and others, get that cpu and make that number its base cpu...

Yes, it would be better, but I prefer have my new slots for hotfix charlire, and the new new CPU for hotfix Delta...
Just to know playing the new calda gameplay

Or both

But cpu first, as if the slots get changed we can't fit anything.

Assault should be better slayers, that is the only way to motivate people out of slayer logis. amarr slayer logis are not a huge issue right now anyway.

Well, that vaguely answers one question.

Sure, Amarr Logis aren't big slayers right now but it's such an isolated case... The Amarr Assault -does- have a really good bonus that pretty much everyone can agree makes it a much better slayer than the Amarr Logi, even with the sidearm.

But consider, if you will, what's going to happen if the Caldari Logistics gets a sidearm when compared to the Caldari Assault. Based on your proposed slot layouts and numbers for Hotfix Charlie, the Cal Logi has one more low and two more equipment slots (proto level) on top of having better CPU/PG.

Assuming all skills level 5 and both fit a (proto) Rail Rifle and Magsec combo, the Assault's bonus saves 30 CPU and 5 PG in cost between the two of them. But on the other hand, the Caldari Logi has 43 CPU and 17 more PG than the Caldari Assault, even with the Hotfix Charlie stats (a 13 CPU/12 PG difference).

So who really saves here? If I make equipment my last priority, the Caldari Logi already has better fitting across the board (more slots, better resources) than the Cal Assault does, even with the Assaults' bonus to weapon fitting.

So the Logi beats the Assault on resources/fitting. What about EHP and Speed?

Assault has 38 more shields and 37 more armor. But hey, Cal Logi got an extra low slot, so no big deal right?
Speed? Talking about a 0.3m/s difference.

Comparing them side by side, I still think that the Caldari Logi is the better slayer here. EDIT: Please, someone sanity check me here if you feel that I'm wrong - maybe I'm not looking at this from the right light.

EDIT: The point that I'm trying to make here is that, yes, Assaults should be better Logis and it's -one way- to make encourage the slayer Logis to use Assaults instead; but the current proposal(s) don't seem quite enough. Personally, I'd prefer to make Logis more supportive instead of just defaulting to giving them more combat options and hoping they use it responsibly.

Yes, the best is the both
But with CCP it's just 1 lol
I've made a lot of dropsuits with just 317CPU (base) and I can fit a lot of thing... ok... it's basic or enhanced mods, but that's better than have just more CPU and cannot use those CPU because you don't have the mods...

Basic and enhanced mods on proto suit...nope needs more buffing.

Assault should be better slayers

the main issue i see with the gallente assault vs gal logi is the armor hp. my gal logi can have 3 complex DM, 730 armor with nearly 10hps regen, 4 equipment (3 of which complex) and a proto firearm and a grendae. even with the fitting bonus the gallente assault is pretty pathetic in comparison.
maybe the hi/lo slot allocation of assaults and logi's should be switched? because the 4 low on gal assault and 5 low on gal logi have always felt wrong since Uprising first came out.

to fix the logi vs assault usage it would also help to drop PG/CPU of logis but raise the equipment bonus to 10% per level so a logi benefits from using equipment and influence them more in their usage.

as for the amarr logi same again. if you're not using a laser based weapon then the logi is a far superior suit with a KK rail fitted. you still get the sidearm as well as 3 equipment slots for all your needs. you can carry a stash of rep hives to heal yourself and supply your own ammo if needed. the Amarr logi is almost a Type II assault suit than a logi.

logis need more persuasion to use equipment instead of use it as a slayer which is why i feel raising equipment bonus to 10% per level and dropping PG/CPU would benefit more than hi/lo slot reallocation and balance.