logis wouldn't need more pg/cpu than assaults if the equipment fitting efficiency bonus was as high as the scouts bonus to using the cloak.

I don't understand why you want to remove your "assault slots change"?
With actually PG/CPU you'll give us, we'll be able to fit all our fit, and the gameplay'll be better for assault..
- Minmatar is shield (+ armor)
- Caldari is shield only
- Gallente is armor (+ dmg)
- Amarr is armor only

=> so, why don't do that change ? Why don't you want to put 4/3 for Minma ? 5/2 for Calda ? 2/5 for Amarr ?

It would be the best balancing you can do for different assaults races...

Problem with just switching the slot layouts though is that the Logi's have the higher CPU/PG, so they have an easier time outfitting their suit even with the slots. If you switch them, the Assault has even more slots that they can't fit all the way because they naturally have less resources to do so. The issue comes into play as to what those slots are being used for and, that in mind, I like the idea of reducing CPU/PG on the Log in favor of increasing it's available bonus.

Logi suits HAVE to have more pg/cpu because equipment fittings are so high and you're fitting more things than an assault. Comparing the spare fitting on racial medium suits really doesn't mean much because of the bonuses on each suit.

You also have to remember that logi suits get no damage bonuses of any sort so it doesn't matter what weapon you throw on there. So what happens is you see logis fitting the cheapest weapon types. Combat Rifles, Swarm Launchers (more expensive but good utility), militia/basic shotguns, and SMGs.

I believe I saw a dev mention they would be in favor of trading a low slot for the sidearm slot, so it's not going to be as OP as you think (it wouldn't even be OP in the grand scheme of DUST how it is currently or when assault gets fixed.)

Slot layouts and fitting resource changes alone are not going to fix assaults, it's not the root of the problem.

CCP Rattati, I am hearing from someone that the proposed assault slot changes are cancelled, is this true? I hope its not.

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We've needed more viable high slots for armor tankers for a long time, that is certainly a problem.

Starting to make me wonder if Kin Cats should, in fact, be a high slot module.... (Caldari) Shield tankers shouldn't really want it and Minnie suits could stack kin cats and shield regs more viably for better speed tanking.

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The variable slot count per tier for the logis specifically. I don't see a reason why we don't equalize slot count per tier this round. Any objections? :)

Thanks for the detailed feedback, it verifies my thoughts.

I would like to discuss having two passive logis that need to defend their placed equipment, AM and CA and two active logis, MM and GA. [b]I.e. trading the CA low for a sidearm[/b].

Quite the contrary, Logistics do -NOT- have to have more PG/CPU... They can have the same amount of PG/CPU as Assaults and just have better reductions from their bonus, if your main concern is the equipment resource costs being high. And yes, I'd argue that the spare room means quite a bit if only because of those bonuses. As I described earlier, the benefits on the weapon fitting for the assault don't stack up to the amount of extra PG/CPU that the logistics already has; you're still coming out on top with the Logistics, bonuses considered.

And uhh.... Assaults don't get damage bonuses either... If you're assuming that the Assaults are getting a damage bonus than you might want to take another look at Assaults . I don't know of any Logistics that use SMGs by default and Combat Rifles aren't preferred just because of their cheap resource costs, they're pretty effective despite that.

Where was it mentioned that they were going to trade a low slot for the sidearm? I was under the impression it was an equipment slot.

Except everybody is forgetting that CCP is significantly buffing assault suit base hp.

The speed difference between assaults and logis isn't insignificant.

I'm not saying I am in favor of sidearm logis. Just that I don't think they would be better slayers than assaults. Not when assaults will have better speed, weapon bonuses, shield regen and a base hp advantage strong enough to exceed logi's slot advantage. This combined with the proposed CPU/PG bonuses.

I'm my opinion Rattati could have gone about the Charlie assault suit change feedback discussion better. He should have put all the suggested assault suit changes together in one thread with suggested numbers instead of splitting it all up. It has just caused confusion as people complain about slots in the fitting thread, people complain about fitting in the slot thread, and everyone forgets about the hp buff.

Gallente equal number of highs and lows, preferring lows

I don't understand the confusion, I originally said I don't like the complete irregularity that the Amarr logi sidearm is, because it obfuscates all true comparisons between the logis.

Now, if Caldari logis have a sidearm, and the same number of slots as the Amarr, then there is no singular discrepancy, then there is a reason and we can balance the two combat logis against each other.

Just as if we would remove the Amarr sidearm and the CA low, and equalize all the logis at all tiers.

I maintain that the dropsuit is such a fundamental item in the dust balance, that slot layouts should be very consistent, logical and not have inherent discrepancies, because those layouts translate into PG/CPU. That's why we are proposing a single matrix of universal dropsuit layouts. And that is also, why the CA ADV scout has 4-1, changing that single one to 3-2 would "break" the whole universal proposal.

The differences should be at the role/racial and module/weapon level and that's where our choices become truly meaningful.

In the end, none of these changes are necessary, they have been this way for a long time and maybe they shouldn't be touched. I am sure we can find other things to balance.

Well, that vaguely answers one question.

Sure, Amarr Logis aren't big slayers right now but it's such an isolated case... The Amarr Assault -does- have a really good bonus that pretty much everyone can agree makes it a much better slayer than the Amarr Logi, even with the sidearm.

But consider, if you will, what's going to happen if the Caldari Logistics gets a sidearm when compared to the Caldari Assault. Based on your proposed slot layouts and numbers for Hotfix Charlie, the Cal Logi has one more low and two more equipment slots (proto level) on top of having better CPU/PG.

Assuming all skills level 5 and both fit a (proto) Rail Rifle and Magsec combo, the Assault's bonus saves 30 CPU and 5 PG in cost between the two of them. But on the other hand, the Caldari Logi has 43 CPU and 17 more PG than the Caldari Assault, even with the Hotfix Charlie stats (a 13 CPU/12 PG difference).

So who really saves here? If I make equipment my last priority, the Caldari Logi already has better fitting across the board (more slots, better resources) than the Cal Assault does, even with the Assaults' bonus to weapon fitting.

So the Logi beats the Assault on resources/fitting. What about EHP and Speed?

Assault has 38 more shields and 37 more armor. But hey, Cal Logi got an extra low slot, so no big deal right?
Speed? Talking about a 0.3m/s difference.

Comparing them side by side, I still think that the Caldari Logi is the better slayer here. EDIT: Please, someone sanity check me here if you feel that I'm wrong - maybe I'm not looking at this from the right light.

EDIT: The point that I'm trying to make here is that, yes, Assaults should be better than Logis and it's -one way- to make encourage the slayer Logis to use Assaults instead; but the current proposal(s) don't seem quite enough. Personally, I'd prefer to make Logis more supportive instead of just defaulting to giving them more combat options and hoping they use it responsibly.

Assault should be better slayers, that is the only way to motivate people out of slayer logis. amarr slayer logis are not a huge issue right now anyway.

Instead of listening to most of the players around that really don't have thorough knowledge in dropsuit fittings, you should have lowered the H/L slot count for logi to greatly reduce the EHP potential. The EHP together with several equipment slots is basically why most players go for this suit over Assault, Logistics are supposed to be meant for support with low combat strength as their equipment already boosts the team's strength and survival. I still find it silly how a Logistics ck.0 can perform better than my Officer Assault ck.0.

An excellent way to have buffed Assaults while lowering the lethality of Scouts should have been to switch shield regen rates between the two. I wouldalso suggest to lower shotgun damage by 30% and give a slight range increase but this is something to discuss in a different thread and it's certainly something that will be blindly opposed in huge counts.

I have to say, these changes make me mostly quite happy--the only thing I don't like is the possibility of the Amarr logi losing its sidearm, but I do agree there's a good rationale behind such a move. Other than that, though, it's all positive, and I only have a few things I'd like to mention:

1. The CalAss/MinAss slot layout switch is awesome--thanks for listening to the community.

I went ahead and included the slot layout changes to the 'Hotfix Charlie' dropsuits in protofits, these suits also have the proposed changes to PG/CPU.

Regards

And we are back.

TLDR;
Charlie: New slot layout adopted for Sentinels and Assaults, with corresponding PG/CPU adaptations plus PG/CPU buff for Assaults and reduction for Sentinels. Universal slot layout matrix for Caldari changed from 4-1 to 3-2.

Now, based on your consolidated feedback,

The standardized slot layout matrix was pretty well received, yet overall there were the following worries:

1)Caldari Scouts not having 2 low slots at ADV, so couldnGÇÿt effectively dampen like the other three scouts
a.Scouts will be standardized and revised in Delta using the matrix.
b.Therefore, no changes to Scouts in Charlie, but KinCat, CodeBreaker and Nova Knife PG reduced so Minmatar will be able to fit with abandon.

2)Caldari Sentinels not having 2 low slots at PRO, so canGÇÿt fit an armor rep and regulator (for example)
a.Easy fix to this is to change the matrix to 3-2 instead of 4-1 for Caldari 5 slots.
b.Sentinel slots need to be changed in Charlie with corresponding PG/CPU changes.
c.Sentinels then get a fitting bonus to Heavy weapons and a moderate reduction of PG/CPU in Charlie.

3)Logistics, Amarr side arm and Caldari low slot at PRO
a.Our proposal is to give both the sidearm at the cost of a single slot, not two as in the case of the Amarr. The Caldari will trade a low slot for the sidearm and the Amarr will trade an equipment slot for the sidearm. Not until Delta though.

4)Logistics, Gallente and Caldari STD and ADV to have equal total slot count as other Logistics
a. These are scheduled for Delta as well as PG/CPU revisions if necessary.

5)Commandos
a.No changes in Charlie, new layout according to matrix in Delta and corresponding tweaks of PG/CPU.

6)Assault
a.Very few grievances, if at all, with the new the new Assault suit layout, so will be adopted fully in Charlie
b.Assault will move to a 4-6-8 layout of slots, gaining one high/low slot at both ADV and PRO. This standardizes Mediums and gives Assault a huge boost towards being a viable options in competitive surroundings.
c.Assault will also get the same fitting bonus to Grenades.
d.Assault will be getting a considerable buff to PG/CPU, shield tanking will be addressed but we are also looking at bringing energizers and rechargers down and trading for a small PG increase in Delta
e. Assault will gain 150 ehp.


Please give us feedback on this, and this time please stay on topic. Thanks.

stuff
Thanks Rattati. Looks very good, only disapointed that some of the changes are being pushed back to Delta.

And we are back.

TLDR;
Charlie: New slot layout adopted for Sentinels and Assaults, with corresponding PG/CPU adaptations plus PG/CPU buff for Assaults and reduction for Sentinels. Universal slot layout matrix for Caldari changed from 4-1 to 3-2.

Now, based on your consolidated feedback,

The standardized slot layout matrix was pretty well received, yet overall there were the following worries:

1)Caldari Scouts not having 2 low slots at ADV, so couldnGÇÿt effectively dampen like the other three scouts
a.Scouts will be standardized and revised in Delta using the matrix.
b.Therefore, no changes to Scouts in Charlie, but KinCat, CodeBreaker and Nova Knife PG reduced so Minmatar will be able to fit with abandon.

2)Caldari Sentinels not having 2 low slots at PRO, so canGÇÿt fit an armor rep and regulator (for example)
a.Easy fix to this is to change the matrix to 3-2 instead of 4-1 for Caldari 5 slots.
b.Sentinel slots need to be changed in Charlie with corresponding PG/CPU changes.
c.Sentinels then get a fitting bonus to Heavy weapons and a moderate reduction of PG/CPU in Charlie.

3)Logistics, Amarr side arm and Caldari low slot at PRO
a.Our proposal is to give both the sidearm at the cost of a single slot, not two as in the case of the Amarr. The Caldari will trade a low slot for the sidearm and the Amarr will trade an equipment slot for the sidearm. Not until Delta though.

4)Logistics, Gallente and Caldari STD and ADV to have equal total slot count as other Logistics
a. These are scheduled for Delta as well as PG/CPU revisions if necessary.

5)Commandos
a.No changes in Charlie, new layout according to matrix in Delta and corresponding tweaks of PG/CPU.

6)Assault
a.Very few grievances, if at all, with the new the new Assault suit layout, so will be adopted fully in Charlie
b.Assault will move to a 4-6-8 layout of slots, gaining one high/low slot at both ADV and PRO. This standardizes Mediums and gives Assault a huge boost towards being a viable options in competitive surroundings.
c.Assault will also get the same fitting bonus to Grenades.
d.Assault will be getting a considerable buff to PG/CPU, shield tanking will be addressed but we are also looking at bringing energizers and rechargers down and trading for a small PG increase in Delta
e. Assault will gain 150 ehp.


Please give us feedback on this, and this time please stay on topic. Thanks.

Well, we never intended to change all the layouts in Charlie, we wanted to discuss holistically whether this was the right path, and then take the necessary steps to get there, starting with Assaults and Sentinels.