Hi all,

We want to have this formal discussion and get your input. We believe that the community has wanted to have some say on this issue for some time, and now that I am studying this data in detail, some things brush me the wrong way (or my OCD).

Dropsuit Slot Layout

First table is Current, next table is proposed, and third tracks the difference in slots between the two.

We don't need to do any changes to these layouts right now. However, with PG/CPU increases for the Assault class on the horizon, more based on a PG/CPU allotment per slot type, it would be the right timing to swap a high with a low in strategic places, or add missing slots.

The new premise is a single matrix of racial high/low arrangements and then tactical choices of the other slots (EQ, SA, W, G). The proposed matrix is also intended to be more thematically in line with EVE Online racial slots.

Amarr highest number of low slots
Caldari highest number of high slots
Gallente equal number of highs and lows, preferring lows
Minmatar equal number of highs and lows, preferring highs

Moving forward with few changes without changing the whole layout of every dropsuit is certainly on the table as well. The logi sidearm f.ex. There are other "anomalies" that I would love to discuss, such as STD and ADV logi racial differences.

Of course if you see some errors, please let us know.

Have at it and keep it civil and constructive!

we wont. without touching cpu. a 5/2 layout running

2 complex energizers

3 complex extenders

1 complex cpu mod

1 complex regulator

proto RR

proto bolt pistol

proto av nades

youre 20 cpu short. thats with no equipment too. (and Rattati wants two equip slots lol)

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so, std and adv suits wont be able to fit full shield tanks at all and proto suits cant either.

again, these suits are broken because they dont work at all unless you fit one of two specific mods on them. it breaks our freedom and customization of fits when certain mods are mandatory. like cpu mods on cal suits

OK this is literally going nowhere.

Can I ask you to only reply with "I like these changes" and see if there is a harmony in those answers. I seem to see a few happy Min Assaults, what about the GA STD and ADV logis who have been shafted out of slots for no reason that I can see?

My belief was that players were asking for the slots to make more sense, less duplicate options and more racial flavoring. Such as fewer 3-2, 2-3.

I also see a lot of Cals who want to keep their 2 lows to put amor plates or reps, that's really not a playstyle we would design around or cater too.

Also keep in mind that Assaults are getting a decent ehp buff and pg/cpu, so don't use the current pg/cpu as a reason to say "no I don't want 4-1.

Also keep in mind that we will be buffing dmg mods so a better use for high slots.

In the end, we cannot, with slot layout design, stop anyone from doing shield extenders and normal plates. Yes, they will have of ehp, and that is something we are trying to address in Delta with some fitting bonus/efficacy solutions.

@CCP Rattati: O_o Caldari assault 1 low at STD and ADV??? Ok... You must respec my dropsuit tree...

As someone who primarily uses Amarr dropsuits, I am really happy with these proposed changes to give those suits the most low slots. I can, however, see why some Gallente dropsuit players would be a little upset since for the longest time during the beginning of Uprising Gallente suits used to be the most armor oriented with most lows.

Given that Gallente suit players still want to be primarily armor tankers, having high slots doesn't appeal so much because the only choices are
1) Shield mods, which is dual tanking which they don't necessarily want
2) Damage mods, which seem underwhelming but are getting a buff
3) Precision mods, which aren't very useful for mediums/heavies
4) Melee mods, which are not very attractive at all

What's going to end up happening more than likely is all Gallente suits will be using nothing but damage mods in highs as players will see it as the only viable option. Either that or they will dual tank. Maybe moving a module type to high slots to give high slots more versatility may be a good thing after all? Or, if possible, create new modules for high slots?

not to seem greedy but how about another high slot for calsent? or just a buff to complex shield extenders?

I mention a 5th slot because we already get melted by the gallente and now the amarr too.
we are fast approaching the point of having a "worst" heavy suit the balance should be that they are different to each other not better or worse than

no more

By how much though?
How much better do you intend Assaults being?

Assault should be better slayers, that is the only way to motivate people out of slayer logis. amarr slayer logis are not a huge issue right now anyway.

Yes, it would be better, but I prefer have my new slots for hotfix charlire, and the new new CPU for hotfix Delta...
Just to know playing the new calda gameplay

Yes, the best is the both
But with CCP it's just 1 lol
I've made a lot of dropsuits with just 317CPU (base) and I can fit a lot of thing... ok... it's basic or enhanced mods, but that's better than have just more CPU and cannot use those CPU because you don't have the mods...

Except everybody is forgetting that CCP is significantly buffing assault suit base hp.

The speed difference between assaults and logis isn't insignificant.

I'm not saying I am in favor of sidearm logis. Just that I don't think they would be better slayers than assaults. Not when assaults will have better speed, weapon bonuses, shield regen and a base hp advantage strong enough to exceed logi's slot advantage. This combined with the proposed CPU/PG bonuses.

I'm my opinion Rattati could have gone about the Charlie assault suit change feedback discussion better. He should have put all the suggested assault suit changes together in one thread with suggested numbers instead of splitting it all up. It has just caused confusion as people complain about slots in the fitting thread, people complain about fitting in the slot thread, and everyone forgets about the hp buff.

And we are back.

TLDR;
Charlie: New slot layout adopted for Sentinels and Assaults, with corresponding PG/CPU adaptations plus PG/CPU buff for Assaults and reduction for Sentinels. Universal slot layout matrix for Caldari changed from 4-1 to 3-2.

Now, based on your consolidated feedback,

The standardized slot layout matrix was pretty well received, yet overall there were the following worries:

1)Caldari Scouts not having 2 low slots at ADV, so couldnGÇÿt effectively dampen like the other three scouts
a.Scouts will be standardized and revised in Delta using the matrix.
b.Therefore, no changes to Scouts in Charlie, but KinCat, CodeBreaker and Nova Knife PG reduced so Minmatar will be able to fit with abandon.

2)Caldari Sentinels not having 2 low slots at PRO, so canGÇÿt fit an armor rep and regulator (for example)
a.Easy fix to this is to change the matrix to 3-2 instead of 4-1 for Caldari 5 slots.
b.Sentinel slots need to be changed in Charlie with corresponding PG/CPU changes.
c.Sentinels then get a fitting bonus to Heavy weapons and a moderate reduction of PG/CPU in Charlie.

3)Logistics, Amarr side arm and Caldari low slot at PRO
a.Our proposal is to give both the sidearm at the cost of a single slot, not two as in the case of the Amarr. The Caldari will trade a low slot for the sidearm and the Amarr will trade an equipment slot for the sidearm. Not until Delta though.

4)Logistics, Gallente and Caldari STD and ADV to have equal total slot count as other Logistics
a. These are scheduled for Delta as well as PG/CPU revisions if necessary.

5)Commandos
a.No changes in Charlie, new layout according to matrix in Delta and corresponding tweaks of PG/CPU.

6)Assault
a.Very few grievances, if at all, with the new the new Assault suit layout, so will be adopted fully in Charlie
b.Assault will move to a 4-6-8 layout of slots, gaining one high/low slot at both ADV and PRO. This standardizes Mediums and gives Assault a huge boost towards being a viable options in competitive surroundings.
c.Assault will also get the same fitting bonus to Grenades.
d.Assault will be getting a considerable buff to PG/CPU, shield tanking will be addressed but we are also looking at bringing energizers and rechargers down and trading for a small PG increase in Delta
e. Assault will gain 150 ehp.


Please give us feedback on this, and this time please stay on topic. Thanks.

The other things you mentioned in your post were GREAT but...

A slot layout of 3-2 for Caldari now means that I no longer have any reason to use a Minmatar Sentinel.

Fitting Comparison:

Fitting optimization of HMG/PG reduction of speed mod are excluded.
Heavy Weapon/Sidearm Operation at lv 3.
Lv 4 Dropsuit Core Upgrades-Electronics-Engineering
CPU/PG are in accordance to google doc stats.

Caldari ck.0 (CPU 387/PG 69)

1x Complex Shield Extender
1x Complex Shield Recharger
1x Complex Heavy Damage Mod
1x Complex Kinetic Catalyzer
1x Complex Armor Repairer
Assault Scrambler Pistol
PRO HMG
C-7 flux Grenade

Total CPU used 385/387
Total PG used 63/69


Minmatar mk.0 (CPU 396/PG 65)

Same gear as above but with a KLO-1 Scrambler Pistol

Total CPU used 396/396... could be over by 1 if rounded incorrectly but unlikely.
Total PG used 64/65


What we have here are dropsuits with similar fitting capacities BUT the Caldari ck.0 has higher EHP (around 103 over Min) and better shield regen/recharge delay. The trade off for this is being 5% slower than Minmatar Sentinel and inferior Stamina Count/Regen, both being somewhat meaningless concerns for most battle scenarios... unless the entire enemy team is composed of new players that would require you to keep moving to get kills.

I suggest you keep a layout of 4-1 and try to do something about Minmatar Sentinel as it is currently the most underused heavy. One option to consider would be to switch Shield regen rates between Caldari/Minmatar (all Dropsuit Frames), that way Caldari is focused on HP count but not regen while Minmatar has a focus on regen but lower HP count.

Having no armor reps was the inherent worry, so regulator and repper capability were widely requested. Having only one low makes you choose, and in many cases the rep would be preferred, making the shield tank less viable.

Just my thoughts, am I way off?

Here are new proposals for PG/CPU numbers that take into account revised slot layouts for Assaults and Sentinels.

These are quite extensively tested and should allow, with all skills maxed to fit quite well.

But nothing is better than players proving you wrong, so take a look and comment.

Feedback that was taken into account that

1) Amarr had been given a similar boost, while they always had more PG/CPU but fewer slots. With the extra slot, such a discrepancy should not continue.

2) Caldari simply should not be forced to take a CPU mod, unless doing absolutely crazy things CPU wise. Caldari should now be able to fit competitively.

3) Even after the first proposed numbers, the consistent feedback was, Sentinels can still fit anything and still have space. We took another deep look and tweaked. Caldari Sentinels and Minmatar should also be more viable compared to their sentinel brethren now.


New PG/CPU Assaults and Sentinels

Are you sure about giving Assault suits similar EHP potential of Commandos? You may have to buff racial bonus from +2% per level to +3%.

Buffing ehp will be the final decision, but if new slot theory crafting suggests it will be too much, then we can happily reconsider.

No, they have DPS.

For me, the HP buff is in the package...
Slot buff and PG/CPU buff ? => this is one thing
and fo basic assault ? the buff is early inexistant...
So HP buff is very important for me, for assault. It's important to have this buff, to be better than scouts-tanked

And updated o7

I updated the slot layout, revised PG/CPU, implemented the Grenade reduction for Assault class and heavy weapon reduction for Heavy weapons in the Sentinel class.

A couple of questions though,

Slot changes for Assault and Sentinel are confirmed, what about the rest of the classes? I see the gdoc has changes for the Commandos, Logistics and Scout classes, do I ignore these or are they also slated for Charlie? (included them in my recent update to the site) Amarr Logistics have the new slot proposal + sidearm slots giving a 9 slot count to them.

Can you share how that 150ehp is split for the races?, I could update that as well in the site.

He is right, missing 1 hight slot for Calda assault ADV and 1 low for ck.0 assault




I love you my friend

I propose +/- 75/100HP buff on the shield

I'm using the gdoc at the start of this thread either it has a mistake, or that layout you mention is somewhere else (?) or I'm just getting lines mixed still don't see it.

Are you using another source?

Thanks, but that's only PG/CPU, I think so far that one is correct, I can't find yet the slot layouts you mentioned.

Yep, my bad, I see it now, mixed with the new PG/CPU there's a couple of prop high / low columns. On it o7

^killer, how is that balanced?

Sounds like you're just biased towards Caldari Assault. Look you keep coming back to this "minmatar is better because this and that module"

So I'll lay it out for you..

Minmatar gains.
Kincat basic
Cardiac regulator (erm not sure)
Ferroscale (only 15 hp actually so like half a basic)
Strafe speed... OK.

Caldari gains
Shield extender (between ADV and pro)
Basic recharger
Basic regulator (or something)

It's already balanced!!!!! Can someone please back me up on this.

Edit: if I were useless, they'd stop putting me in. I know for a fact that with the changes, I personally will be OP. How? Because I can fit my logi as if it were an assault and wreck face. Now you're saying I can do that same fit with my assault while having more speed, stamina, strafe, regen, and a sidearm. Seriously watch out. WE don't need the HP buff. I think it might tip the FOTM scale to assaults.

I've said, if I could choose my dream is to have an OP caldari assault, isn't your ?


I haven't said you (the person) were useless, you (I think) can make some godd things, but I don't think you play everytime (in BC) with your minma assault, do you ? You have said : you have a commando and a logi

The problem of assault is that : (I'll take with calda, it's the more demonstrative)
Calda scout ck.0 full shield extender :
=> http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/84/5693
- 453hp shield
- more speed
- more stamina
- more shield regen
- more stamina regen
- smaller hitbox
- cloack
- suit bonus (at the moment : scan precision, after hotfix charlie : dampener)
- an other equipment
- more straff speed
- less dampener
- more scan precision
Assault ck.0 to have the same :
=> http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/84/5695
with that, it does the same thing as the scout ck.0, but
- not the cloack
- less straff speed
- bigger hitbox

Result ?
You can become as good as a scout, but without the 3 things I've written above
Why choose an Assault if the scout can make the same work as them ?

Assault must have a "+" at the beginning. I propose more eHP

And for me, commando and assault are almost the same.

PS: Don't be angry, old bro', we are just discussing together You propose your points, I propose mine

Probably not a good idea to put it into proto, players can add that manually.

Using the current ehp split, would look like this at 150 ehp, again, to be re-evaluated based on community feedback.

ArmorShield
AM 100 50
CA 55 95
GA 95 55
MM 71 79

I say keep the HP buff and slot buff, tweak after data has been gathered.
That's the beauty of rapid releases, you don't get stuck for months with a broken game.

The caldari assault will have more shield than my minmatar heavy. Whopping 744 Am I right?

People are playing the maximum ehp game, regardless of viability. While assaults can't get more than sentinels, then there can not be ehp power creep.

However, we may need to intervene with normal plate fitting increases, the raw ehp stacking is not what we want for Dust.

Rattati you've really out done yourself this time. The CPU buff to caldari will help a whole lot. Now I can kite armor tankers and maintain a range advantage by swapping out the CPU mod for a kincat. I'll have enough shield recharge to regen tank effectively, and enough buffer to move around a bit more instead of hugging scraps of cover. All in all, the new cal assault is a hard hitting, long range, hit n run beast with a shield tank strong enough to function without logi support for extended periods of time. The fit I posted earlier is IMO, perfect in way possible in the traditional caldari doctrines.

This game is looking a lot more like it belongs in the eve universe. Thanks for you and your teams hard work.

MISSING
Name: Breach Shotgun
Last Seen: Chromosome

It's called a bolt pistol lol

At 40 hp/a base, you'd have 115 hp/s with two complex energizers. I'm all for it but not sure if it'd be necessary. Don't want to become op you know lol

If you only care about having high eHP, then it wouldn't apply to you lol.

OK so I'm now thinking I like all the buffs for assaults; capacity, 8 slots at pro, and hp. With that said, I believe the capcity cost of all hp modules should be increased by quite a bit, maybe 150%. This will drive away dual tankers, fix the raw eHP stacking problem we have, diversify fits, create use for capacity modules, and make base HP a more stable balancing mechanic.

Also here's a shield tanked minmatar for Charlie with 8 slots

Charlie Assault mk.0

With the HP buff we are looking at about 470 shield and 300 armor. BUT if hp module capacity costs were increased I'd probably drop the extra extender for a damage mod. This would then be 400 shield and 300 armor. A very CRAP looking assault suit.

One last thing is I still think that minmatar assault shield delays are too long. They are currently 6/8 while even the minmatar logistics is 5/6. Even with 2 complex regulators my delay is still 2.5 seconds. I'd say drop the minmatar assault delay to 5/7. This will allow us to properly regulate our shields (2 complex regulators would then = 2 sec). We already suffer from a painfully slow shield regen of 25 and lower eHP.