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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 37 post(s) |
ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
3130
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Posted - 2014.07.16 17:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
Slot progression in dropsuits between tiers is too pronounced for medium frames. Especially for classes like Logistics.
Please Rattati... seriously consider a pseudo-tiercide approach to this to make STD/ADV suits more viable against PRO suits. Even if PRO gear is less worth its price tag, it still will always have a place.
Option 1: All tiers have the same number of slots, with progressive CPU/PG. STD suits can fit the same number of modules, just of less quality. This helps even out the power creep in dropsuit tiers and makes the game FAR less about level 5 or go home.
Option 2: Reduce the module layout progression to 1 module per tier. Such that you go from 5 STD to 6 ADV to 7 PRO. Moving away from this 4 to 6 to 8 that is currently proposed for Logistics suits and 4 to 5 to 7 that is being proposed for Assaults. Make the medium frame progression similar to how it is for light and heavy suits.
Option 1 I think is vastly superior though and would help the NPE if new players could feel they are close to, but not quite, as powerful as veteran players. |
ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
3132
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Posted - 2014.07.16 18:04:00 -
[2] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:Slot progression in dropsuits between tiers is too pronounced for medium frames. Especially for classes like Logistics.
Please Rattati... seriously consider a pseudo-tiercide approach to this to make STD/ADV suits more viable against PRO suits. Even if PRO gear is less worth its price tag, it still will always have a place.
Option 1: All tiers have the same number of slots, with progressive CPU/PG. STD suits can fit the same number of modules, just of less quality. This helps even out the power creep in dropsuit tiers and makes the game FAR less about level 5 or go home.
Option 2: Reduce the module layout progression to 1 module per tier. Such that you go from 5 STD to 6 ADV to 7 PRO. Moving away from this 4 to 6 to 8 that is currently proposed for Logistics suits and 4 to 5 to 7 that is being proposed for Assaults. Make the medium frame progression similar to how it is for light and heavy suits.
Option 1 I think is vastly superior though and would help the NPE if new players could feel they are close to, but not quite, as powerful as veteran players.
I also agree that medium frame Amarr suits would benefit from a 2/5 layout to better reinforce their high buffer armor tank style. I hear you, but I want to get started on actual layout standardization first. Option 1 has merit, but is too drastic a change. Option 2 could be done, but these are the current progressions, we are actually not proposing different totals of slots per role per tier. These are the reality, i.e. the 4-6-8 for Logis etc.
I understand waiting on Option 2... but man... seriously consider why is it that Scouts and Sentinels are +1 slot per tier but Logis are +2 slots per tier? I can't imagine ever using an advanced logistics suit because the power differential between ADV and PRO logi is quite large when its 2 slots AND reduced CPU/PG.
Additional slots at STD/ADV, even if you don't want to touch CPU and PG would be help immensely...
Also consider that, at any tier, Scouts, Assaults, and Sentinel all have full weaponry slots. This allows them to do their job relatively as effectively at any Tier. An HMG is still and HMG whether its on a STD vs PRO Sentintel. Logi's on the other hand have equipment slot progression. Making lower tier suits significantly less useful, once again, than their PRO counterparts. You may want to consider giving all tiers of Logi suits the same number of equipment slots to reinforce the idea that they are equipment focused support suits.
Here is something for you to consider, it was a dilemma I had a while back. I have a PRO Amarr Logi and I wanted to work my way into Min Logi for the rep bonus. However..
At ADV, Min Logi only has 3 slots... and so does my PRO Amarr Logi... this means that in no way ever would I prefer to use an ADV Min Logi over my PRO Amarr. While that might sound like it makes sense (PRO should always be better than ADV right?) what it really means is that I have no incentive to skill into any other logi suit until I can get the 2.5 million SP needed to get it to level 5. That price is so large, it likely means i'll never bother getting another logi suit, i'll focus on weaponry and tank upgrades instead. This really hurts a good portion of the game for me (the desire to try new suits and playstyles). |
ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
3140
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Posted - 2014.07.16 21:24:00 -
[3] - Quote
Move speed needs to be a faster as well when comparing Amarr and Gallente. Especially considering Amarr have lower base.
We've needed more viable high shields for armor tankers for a long time, that is certainly a problem.
Starting to make me wonder if Kin Cats should, in fact, be a high slot module.... Shield tankers shouldn't really want it and Minnie suits could stack kin cats and shield regs more viably for better speed tanking.
In that case, with buffed damage mods and high slot codebreakers... There could be a place for 3/4 and 2/5.
Also, high base armor repair on Gallente assault could make them quite viable. Changing the Scout gk.0 to 1hp/s and the Assault gk.0 to 3 hp/s could make things very interesting as well. |
ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
3141
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Posted - 2014.07.16 21:47:00 -
[4] - Quote
Regarding the Amarr Logi:
I am a little disappointed in seeing Amarr Logi lose its sidearm but I remain hopeful that it is to make room for bigger changes. With these changes, Amarr Logi definitely becomes the least desirable of the four until changes are made to the Logistics class as whole. However, no need to discuss all of that here as its been said elsewhere enough times. |
ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
3141
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Posted - 2014.07.16 22:25:00 -
[5] - Quote
High slot kin cats would be a straight buff to Minmatar suits imo. Especially with a new 4/3 slot layout on the assault. You can fit Kin Cats in the highs and regulators in the lows. This would make it a very hit and run kind of suit, perfect for what they want to do. With a high base recharge you could see very viable speed tanked Min Assaults.
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ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
3142
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Posted - 2014.07.16 22:31:00 -
[6] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:speedy, brick-tanked "slayer" Scouts <--- we want fewer of these (and more assaults) :: hands Pandora's Box :: ^ You sure you wanna open that sh*t? ... you'll wish you hadn't. 
If we want less slayer scouts and more assault suits then we need better assault suits. Module placement won't make a difference regarding that.
Tesfa Alem wrote:Please add the same number of highs and lows to the assault suits as thier corresponding logi brethren.
Only if logi suits get similar base hp as assaults (which im not against by any means). |
ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
3142
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Posted - 2014.07.16 22:47:00 -
[7] - Quote
Boot Booter wrote:Haha I'm sure I play this game just as much if not more than you. 37 mil sp from open beta.
Fact is dual tanking is part of this game. I learned this the hard way in the min assault. Why do you think pro cal assaults with 400 plus armor? You armor tankers lived through a golden age of armor tanking ever since the buff way back and this made you believe that a pure tank was possible. Meanwhile shield tanking has been a real struggle; dual tanking became a necessity.
Like I said though the issue isn't the slot layout, the ones Rattati proposed make sense based on lore. The problem arises from not having a high slot module which contributes to armor tanking. Shield tankers have regulators in the lows. So what do you do? Dual tank to survive.
What about the golden age of shield tanking? You know... 1.0-1.4 when we all ran caldari cause armor sucked so bad.
We've had points where shields and armor were overpowered. It is possible to find some point in the middle where they are reasonably balanced.
Give Caldari assault a fairly low delay and high base recharge something tells me they will be quite happy with a 5/2 layout as long as they have sufficient resources to build competitive fits.
Shield Extenders still need a PG reduction though, that combined with a complex CPU mod could make Caldari Assault very happily fitting a pure shield tank while remaining competitive. 4 extenders, 1 energizer, 1 reg, 1 CPU mod could put Caldari Assault in a pretty decent place if they had sufficient base stats. |
ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
3154
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Posted - 2014.07.18 19:07:00 -
[8] - Quote
If Logi and Assault have the same fitting capacity, base hp (not speed), and slot layout, then with correctly tuned fitting capacity and a buff to 15% fitting reduction on equipment and weapons for each class there should be no question which does which.
The Assault gets to easily fit a proto weapon while struggling to fit proto equipment and proto modules and the logi easily fits proto equipment while struggling to fit proto weapon and proto modules.
To finally reinforce this, the assault and logis both need compelling equipment and weapon bonuses to give them advantages that the other cannot receive through fitting modules alone.
If you gimp logi base stats AND gimp their slot layout... then they just become too weak to matter and will constantly get chewed up by every other class.
B C R U are letters, not words - Wierd Al Yankovich
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ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
3155
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Posted - 2014.07.18 19:58:00 -
[9] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:If Logi and Assault have the same fitting capacity, base hp (not speed), and slot layout, then with correctly tuned fitting capacity and a buff to 15% fitting reduction on equipment and weapons for each class there should be no question which does which.
The Assault gets to easily fit a proto weapon while struggling to fit proto equipment and proto modules and the logi easily fits proto equipment while struggling to fit proto weapon and proto modules.
To finally reinforce this, the assault and logis both need compelling equipment and weapon bonuses to give them advantages that the other cannot receive through fitting modules alone.
If you gimp logi base stats AND gimp their slot layout... then they just become too weak to matter and will constantly get chewed up by every other class. Ummm... No. Even with current CPU/PG fitting prototype weapons is laughably easy. What you will do is basically make Assault obsolete.
With the CR and its tiny fitting requirements, I might agree with you. Otherwise, you cannot fit proto everything on a logi suit without CPU and PG mods. Not that i've ever been able to do at least using Cal Logi pre fitting reduction or Amarr Logi post fitting reduction. I imagine it only gets more difficult with a 4th piece of proto equipment.
How does this make assaults obsolete? With compelling weapon bonuses AND what is essentially a straight buff. Then you give assaults increased base regeneration and you're in a good spot.
If you think this is wrong i'd welcome a better explanation than "um... no"
B C R U are letters, not words - Wierd Al Yankovich
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ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
3155
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Posted - 2014.07.18 20:45:00 -
[10] - Quote
Actually I take it back, with similar layout and capacity the Assault should probably keep 10% reduction and logi is buffed to 15%. This reduction would keep them more in line as Assaults have two weapons and Logis have 4 equipment.
B C R U are letters, not words - Wierd Al Yankovich
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ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
3158
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Posted - 2014.07.18 22:21:00 -
[11] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:The ability to upgrade from a GEK to a Duvolle and slightly higher regeneration is absolutely not worth losing the 4 equipment that logis have.
It's not fair trade.
to you maybe:
You are giving up a sidearm, increased regen, increased move (and strafe speed) and weapon bonuses. That is fairly substantial.
However, my comment was referring more to how a balanced slot and hp layout could make it work. I also did include that compelling weapon oriented bonuses need to be added to the assault suits, as the Gal/Cal ones are crap atm. Maybe rolled into that would be something else like the RoF increase many have proposed or something along those lines.
But... for example. Lets take the Amarr suits.
Reduction to Laser Weaponry Heat buildup and a sidearm? There is already a compelling reason to play Amarr Assault over Amarr Logi... you don't see people screaming that Amarr Logi makes the Amarr Assault suit obsolete do you? I don't. Yet with the current meta the Logi suit is likely capable of more EHP already... not exactly the same like im proposing, but more EHP.
Current Amarr Logi even has a sidearm...
You've never seemed like an assault player though. You've always undervalued move speed and sidearms.
B C R U are letters, not words - Wierd Al Yankovich
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ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
3158
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Posted - 2014.07.18 23:13:00 -
[12] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Injectors:
Shields start regenerating instantly after an injection, and considering the speed at which they do it, I don't think it's a big deal.
Comments like this make me a little worried. Have you ever played in PC Cat Merc?
Injectors are generally useless in PC unless you are bringing up a heavy, but for shield based suits? It's laughable how useless injectors are...
How you can even consider that reviving with 80% or 100% armor vs 0% shields is balanced concerns me...
B C R U are letters, not words - Wierd Al Yankovich
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ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
3158
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Posted - 2014.07.18 23:30:00 -
[13] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:Z dub, cat merc is part of the problem with the community having a strong voice on the forums.
Make enough posts about needing armor buffs and maybe just maybe his kdr will go up when his suit becomes more OP. he does not understand balance and believes that because he can shoot some newberries in a shield suit that everyrhing is balanced, when deep down, I think even he knows that armor has huge advantages over shields right now.
It's the deception that I hope Ratattati can see through.
The squeeky wheel always gets the grease right?
I'll admit that armor needed some help in those early days though... I remember feeling relieved every time I saw a heavy or an armored based medium frame back then cause you knew it was gonna be an easy fight.
Nowadays though I can't imagine playing a shield suit... Shield suits do need some love. Tools for better group play would be really helpful (Remote Shield Booster and some Injector love for starters...). As well as a bigger focus on shield recharge delays with the removal of the extender penalty being a good place to start as well.
Cat Merc wrote:TBH injectors are rare for everything under heavy, shield or not.
I don't remember the last time I saw someone get revived.
While a lot of that has to do with the mechanics of reviving (no press to revive), some of that has to do with how bad injectors are. However, that doesn't preclude the fact that shield users are totally boned.
B C R U are letters, not words - Wierd Al Yankovich
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