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CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 11606	Posted - 2014.11.18 12:48:00 - [1] - Quote Dear Players Based on a lot of feedback, both from CPM, Community and previous CCP designs, one of the things we are able to conjure up is the much wanted Equipment Bandwidth feature. * We want to fix Equipment spam to increase framerate * We want Quality over Quantity Equipment gameplay * We want a solid Logistics progression at using Equipment * We want Logistics to excel at using Equipment, and other roles less so * We want Equipment diversity Now, we want to get your feedback as early as possible, so chime in. But here are some clarifications of intent. Equipment Limit The main design is primarily based off of Drones in EVE. Every dropsuit has a built-in Equipment Controller, which has a certain Bandwidth Capacity (in MHz). That Controller Bandwidth is used to manage deployed Equipment through constant signaling. Each piece of deployed Equipment has a different Bandwidth Cost (or Usage). Note that all Equipment still has the same current limitations of GÇPdeployed per typeGÇ£. Obviously Logistics are made for this purpose, and some Logistics more than others. In the case of deployed Equipment Bandwidth exceeding the Players current Bandwidth, deployed Equipment self-destructs instantly, in the sequence it was deployed. In the attached spreadsheet, we show an example of such a scenario. This feature will allow proper Logistics to excel at their deployment role, while keeping Assaults & Commandos relatively useful and Scouts will be diminished in capability as they were never meant to be a king of deployables, the additional slot was added for the Cloak Field. Quality over Quantity We want players to use the best Equipment they have at their disposal. ThatGÇÖs why Bandwidth will not increase with item tiers. We also have the capability and intent to reduce Scan Profile with tiers, so Advanced and Complex gear is not as easy to scan. However, this also allows us to increase the carried amount, for rapid redeployment. Spawn first Nanohive and Drop Uplink at point A, redeploy to Objective B, spawn second Nanohive and Drop Uplink, and so on. Stay out of trouble and you wonGÇÖt need to switch or restock for quite some time. Progression Logistics will have the, by far, the highest Bandwidth, with Caldari and Amarr the highest. We may need to reword or change some of their role bonuses. Bandwith progression will follow the Equipment slot progression so a Logistics player can almost always use their full allotment of deployable Equipment. Logistics vs other Dropsuits One of the key aspects of this proposal is that all Equipment is tied to the active Dropsuit of the Player. Switch from a suit with a high Bandwidth to another suit with lower Bandwidth, and the signal is lost. This means that starting as a Logistics dropsuit, throw down as much cheap Equipment as possible, then switch into another Logistics dropsuit at a Supply Depot, repeat and then finally switch into another role, Sentinel, Scout, Assault or Commando, will not be possible anymore. Diversity We can now influence players to use more Proximity Mines for example, as Scan Profile will allow them to be hidden from low Precision Vehicle Players, as well as having a lower Bandwidth Cost, allowing more at the same time, without allowing more Uplinks and Nanohives. Extra damage wouldnGÇÖt hurt either. Now, to the numbers found in this spreadsheet. Please remember that these numbers are placeholders, and are definitely up for debate so form your arguments for changes into clear and concise statements. Please read the Example as well, it should explain the whole design clearly. Again, your feedback and input is appreciated. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 3018	Posted - 2014.11.18 12:55:00 - [2] - Quote reserved. R&B gets more kinky with every album Still rocking ADS
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 3354	Posted - 2014.11.18 12:56:00 - [3] - Quote 2nd supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
abdullah muzaffar G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 52	Posted - 2014.11.18 12:56:00 - [4] - Quote Dont like this idea much, waay better to have max radius between uplinks Most of the times im the only logi, and AV on the team
Haerr Dead Man's Game RUST415 1931	Posted - 2014.11.18 12:59:00 - [5] - Quote So I read about as far as to the mentioning of drones... I don't suppose we're going to be allowed to deploy our TK-70 personal drones with these changes? ;)
Haerr Dead Man's Game RUST415 1931	Posted - 2014.11.18 13:02:00 - [6] - Quote Equipment bandwidth - looks really good, goodbye and good riddance to spam.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 668	Posted - 2014.11.18 13:11:00 - [7] - Quote about time this happened. i feel a change in the winds of Dust 514. feels good
Jebus McKing Tronhadar Free Guard 1005	Posted - 2014.11.18 13:16:00 - [8] - Quote I like this a lot. --- The only thing I am not so sure about is the tiered progression. With this system if I dropped 3x gauged hives and 3x gauged links with an ADV suit I will already have hit the limit and I could not use any remotes or proxies without destroying the rest of my equipment. But I guess slightly buffing those numbers isn't too much of a problem if it becomes necessary. --- About the bandwidth bonuses. Instead of giving Amarr + Caldari flat bonuses to bandwidth could we give them bonuses that reduce the BW requirement of certain equipments? Lets say the Amarr bonus allows them to drop more uplinks but they can not use that additional BW to also drop more nanohives than other logis? So, maybe we could have something like this: Amarr gets bonus to uplink BW. Caldari gets bonus to nanohive BW. Minmatar gets bonus to remotes BW. Gallente is ****** and I don't care because I hate scans. Screw Gal Logis! Assault / Logi / Scout / Sentinel // @JebusMcKing
jhon hartigan Dead Man's Game RUST415 399	Posted - 2014.11.18 13:16:00 - [9] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: * We want to fix Equipment spam to increase framerate Thank God
Varoth Drac Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 365	Posted - 2014.11.18 13:28:00 - [10] - Quote Only problem I have is the scout restrictions. Generally spawn in an advanced scout with cloak and drop 2 flux uplinks. Then on next spawn I spawn with an adv scout with remotes and cloak. Now, I am ok with a nerf where I can't run around covering loads of objectives with remotes with my uplinks still up. But I think it is too much of a nerf not being able to use remotes at all with a couple of uplinks running. Give scouts the same bandwidth as assaults and there will be no problems as far I'm concerned. Scouts shouldn't be the kings of deployables, I agree, but they are a central part of our battlefield role. 2 uplinks and a remote isn't spam or game breaking in my opinion.

Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3148	Posted - 2014.11.18 13:29:00 - [11] - Quote This is awesome. Keep the stuff coming Rattati! Will this mean that equipment dont use CPU/PG anymore, or is BW another parameter? If you think about it, its kind of silly that a deployable equipment module (probably fusion reactor driven) use power from your dropsuit. ;) EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet".
Vell0cet Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2572	Posted - 2014.11.18 13:46:00 - [12] - Quote 10/10 This is an awesome and much-needed change. I wonder how it will transform PC tactics? Possibly a greater emphasis on mobile CRU's? Best PvE idea ever!
John Psi Vacuum Cleaner. LLC Steel Balls Alliance 1019	Posted - 2014.11.18 13:50:00 - [13] - Quote It's very simple - the equipment running from any suit should not live longer this suit. Suit die or refitted - equipment DOWN. Please support fair play!
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 398	Posted - 2014.11.18 13:51:00 - [14] - Quote A couple points about some of this. Scouts with two slots aka the scout logi: This is rarely used to deploy equipment at logistic levels. They will still use a rep tool and needles just as well as any non minmatar logi, or the same with uplinks with any non amarr logi. I don't see any change here. The only deployable they spam are R.Es, which has its own major issues. Quality: Then there must be a decrease in high tier equipment prices. Proto equiment, especially nano hives are tremendously expensive both in terms of PG/CPU and isk. Logis vs other suits/ bandwidth: Be carefull of shoehorning players specced into logis into one single role. If i say deploy with my amarr logi and put down links, get killed, and my buddy's crying for backup. If i choose anything other than an amarr logi, I lose all of the equipment i spent a good deal of time and isk to deploy and put down, and now we look at at redeploying from the redline. Heaven forbid you switch out to a heavy, all the equipment brought dissapears. Equipment spam isn't cheap equippment being thrown down, its about lots of high tier equipment and suits being switched out at a supply depot. Diversity and proximity mines Proximity mines are already electronically invisible to vehicles unless the vehicle equip an active scanner. There are no high or low precision vehicle players because active scanners to not increase in precision by tier, they only increase in duration. The scanner is a direct defensive counter to proximities, i don't understand the need to kill the counter, unless pilots and tankers are goin to get higher precision for our scanners with tiers, its an unessecary AV buff. MUST List bandwidth in fittings screen No point in fitting something i cannot deploy. Possible unintendned side efffects One of the last remaining tasks for a ADS is clear out enemy links placed on roofs tops. Making these invisible to pasive scans (by extension vehicles) is going to make it a lot tougher to kill hem, and strafing attack run i use vs uplinks is dead. Currently I use first person view, line up with the uplink icon from as far away a possibly make a diving pass adjusting for the uplink/hive icon, hit what i can and flee the AV. Switching to Fly over roof, stop hover, look around the roof for glow, launch a couple missiles afterburn away. I think Breaking Stuff can accurately explain what happens to dropships who stop and hover over spawn points. tl.dr Having a diverse range in suits will mostly likey be killed with this patch, the benifits for investing in an amarr or caldari logi is outweighed by the idea that changing suits after death means not only do you lose your deployment bonus, isk, but anything you used the suit for. Scout logi still the same. RE Scouts + Equipment or cloak still the same, AV buff, Amarr and caldari logi more useless than before, diversit nerf, and having more equipment deployable means situations like the gallente research facillity will be much worse off as long as the spam logi remains alive. I think its an interesting shakeup, but the more i read about it, the worse it gets. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens Capital Punishment. 2622	Posted - 2014.11.18 13:53:00 - [15] - Quote It is a good idea... at face value. I don't know how I feel about BW increasing as your suit gets better. It puts an increased value of going Prototype with suits. Lower SP players would normally be able to get the best equipment and use it on a crap suit but still help their team. I have Prototype Uplinks for that reason but not a single point in ANY Logistics suit. Making BW increase so much on the better suit will push Logistics in the same way that a Scout's currently are: "If you want to be a Logistics, you need to have it be maxed." (Scouts have this with Cloaks because it is impossible to fit all standard gear with a standard Cloak with only 1 level in Scout) I like that this MAY be another way to make the Amarr and Caldari Logistics more appealing. "I can have 2 Equipment at Standard and 3 at Proto or I can have 3 at Standard and 4 at Proto" is a very easy decision. If the dynamic of "I can throw down more equipment than the other guy" is added, it might make the Caldari or Amarr a more reasonable choice. Of course, the Caldari bonus still sucks but... shrug "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3148	Posted - 2014.11.18 13:53:00 - [16] - Quote I think it is very important to somehow show the bandwidth of current deployed equiment in the "spawn in" screen UI, and also to show "current selected dropsuit bandwidth" in order to be able to compare these two and make the right decision on the battlefield. EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet".
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4876	Posted - 2014.11.18 13:54:00 - [17] - Quote Can the Sentinel be given the same band width as an Assault, even though the Sentinel does not have an equipment slot? In Pub matches were no one is dropping Uplinks, I am sometimes forced to switch to another fit to place some uplinks. Once that is done I spawn in again in my preferred Sentinel fit after dying or finding a Supply Depot. If the Sentinel has no bandwidth I will be stuck playing a suit that has bandwidth in these situations, because my team needs an uplink or they will be red-lined. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Vell0cet Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2573	Posted - 2014.11.18 13:56:00 - [18] - Quote John Psi wrote: It's very simple - the equipment running from any suit should not live longer this suit. Suit die or refitted - equipment DOWN. So you want players to spam equipment and then go hide in the redline? That's what would happen. Best PvE idea ever!
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 398	Posted - 2014.11.18 14:05:00 - [19] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Can the Sentinel be given the same band width as an Assault, even though the Sentinel does not have an equipment slot? In Pub matches were no one is dropping Uplinks, I am sometimes forced to switch to another fit to place some uplinks. Once that is done I spawn in again in my preferred Sentinel fit after dying or finding a Supply Depot. If the Sentinel has no bandwidth I will be stuck playing a suit that has bandwidth in these situations, because my team needs an uplink or they will be red-lined. Exactly. The idea that if you want uplinks or ammo around "not only you must be a amarr or caldari Logi, you must only be these logis and anytime you are not one of these logis all of your stuff will die" Why would i want to restrict myself to just these suits every match? The example given only works out in the Gal facility, otherwise i do want my friend who threw down some uplinks to change suits to fight at the point because we need him there. I do want to be flexible enough to say "right, we formed a good battle line with hives and links but the red are pushing, i'll repawn as a heavy to hold tight, or an assualt/commando to hit em from range, or a scout to flank" without having to choose between perma running one suit to have any sort of equipment available to the team. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
John Psi Vacuum Cleaner. LLC Steel Balls Alliance 1019	Posted - 2014.11.18 14:06:00 - [20] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: John Psi wrote: It's very simple - the equipment running from any suit should not live longer this suit. Suit die or refitted - equipment DOWN. So you want players to spam equipment and then go hide in the redline? That's what would happen. What we do on the battlefield - assumes responsibility. Fighter who launched equipment, should feel responsible as large as his equipment helps his team. Otherwise, it will look as if I could die, but my rifle continued to fire at the enemy. Launched equipment - is also means of combating, like a rifle. Please support fair play!

Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4876	Posted - 2014.11.18 14:07:00 - [21] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Only problem I have is the scout restrictions. Generally spawn in an advanced scout with cloak and drop 2 flux uplinks. Then on next spawn I spawn with an adv scout with remotes and cloak. Now, I am ok with a nerf where I can't run around covering loads of objectives with remotes with my uplinks still up. But I think it is too much of a nerf not being able to use remotes at all with a couple of uplinks running. Give scouts the same bandwidth as assaults and there will be no problems as far I'm concerned. Scouts shouldn't be the kings of deployables, I agree, but they are a central part of our battlefield role. 2 uplinks and a remote isn't spam or game breaking in my opinion. I agree, 2 uplinks and a remote should be viable for Scout, Assault, Commando and Sentinel (if set with a previous fit). All combat fits should have the same Bandwidth. It will make it less complicated to keep track of when switching fits to adapt to a changing battlefield. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 398	Posted - 2014.11.18 14:24:00 - [22] - Quote Another point that came to mind, it will be very hard to deploy rooftop uplinks, because once the campers repawn, there links go as well. No more roof top uplink/nano hive support. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4877	Posted - 2014.11.18 14:30:00 - [23] - Quote John Psi wrote: It's very simple - the equipment running from any suit should not live longer this suit. Suit die or refitted - equipment DOWN. So the roll of a Logi should be to cower in a corner once all their equipment is deployed? Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 7257	Posted - 2014.11.18 14:31:00 - [24] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Only problem I have is the scout restrictions. Generally spawn in an advanced scout with cloak and drop 2 flux uplinks. Then on next spawn I spawn with an adv scout with remotes and cloak. Now, I am ok with a nerf where I can't run around covering loads of objectives with remotes with my uplinks still up. But I think it is too much of a nerf not being able to use remotes at all with a couple of uplinks running. Give scouts the same bandwidth as assaults and there will be no problems as far I'm concerned. Scouts shouldn't be the kings of deployables, I agree, but they are a central part of our battlefield role. 2 uplinks and a remote isn't spam or game breaking in my opinion. Meh, I personally disagree. I could understand having two low profile uplinks deployed behind enemy lines to give your team an advantage but having the ability to remote an objective (or god forbid start blowing up entire squads) on top of that, as well as all the inherent bonuses that a Scout gets to general combat as it is... Doesn't seem very fair. Personally, I think Scouts need to have more of a hard-chosen fitting scheme where they have to consider their options -before- spawning and I think having reduced equipment slots would be a good way of doing that. I advocated, back in 1.8, that Scouts have two equipment just to try it out. I even said, "They've been under powered for so long, let them be OP for a month". It's been over a year now, so I think it's time we try looking at other avenues to bring them back down in balance. Long-Term Roadmap This Player is Against Proto BPOs
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 4751	Posted - 2014.11.18 14:37:00 - [25] - Quote Very happy this is now a thing. :) CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 2024	Posted - 2014.11.18 14:47:00 - [26] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Very happy this is now a thing. :) Ditto CPM 1 member CEO of DUST University Vist dustcpm.com
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 13272	Posted - 2014.11.18 14:47:00 - [27] - Quote Dat feeling when two ideas you had months ago are finding their way into the game (scan falloff and equipment bandwidth). Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 13272	Posted - 2014.11.18 14:52:00 - [28] - Quote So with this idea in place, could you please increase STD and ADV logistics to their full PRO equipment count? There would still be a reason to skill up to PRO, but STD and ADV logis wouldn't be so limited in their equipment choice. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4878	Posted - 2014.11.18 14:53:00 - [29] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Can the Sentinel be given the same band width as an Assault, even though the Sentinel does not have an equipment slot? In Pub matches were no one is dropping Uplinks, I am sometimes forced to switch to another fit to place some uplinks. Once that is done I spawn in again in my preferred Sentinel fit after dying or finding a Supply Depot. If the Sentinel has no bandwidth I will be stuck playing a suit that has bandwidth in these situations, because my team needs an uplink or they will be red-lined. Exactly. The idea that if you want uplinks or ammo around "not only you must be a amarr or caldari Logi, you must only be these logis and anytime you are not one of these logis all of your stuff will die" Why would i want to restrict myself to just these suits every match? The example given only works out in the Gal facility, otherwise i do want my friend who threw down some uplinks to change suits to fight at the point because we need him there. I do want to be flexible enough to say "right, we formed a good battle line with hives and links but the red are pushing, i'll repawn as a heavy to hold tight, or an assualt/commando to hit em from range, or a scout to flank" without having to choose between perma running one suit to have any sort of equipment available to the team. I donGÇÖt mind so much having Bandwidth difference for Logi. Bandwidth will be GÇ£their thingGÇ¥. Someone who wants to play the Logi role will be fine with playing a Logi the whole match. They can still add their gun to the fight. What it will discourage is people who play other roles having a Logi Uplink fit that they use to seed an area and then switch to their main suit. I do this, and I will miss it, but as long as all suits have the bandwidth for a couple of pieces of equipment you can still deploy a few critical pieces of equipment, if you are not a Logi specialist. Which leads me back to a point I have been making. All non-logi suits (including Sentinel) should have the same Bandwidth, because Bandwidth is a Logi thing, and it should be kept simple for us non-logi. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 13272	Posted - 2014.11.18 14:53:00 - [30] - Quote Another idea on top: A module that increases equipment bandwidth, sacrificing a bit of your suit to increase your support powah. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++

Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4878	Posted - 2014.11.18 14:55:00 - [31] - Quote John Psi wrote: Vell0cet wrote: John Psi wrote: It's very simple - the equipment running from any suit should not live longer this suit. Suit die or refitted - equipment DOWN. So you want players to spam equipment and then go hide in the redline? That's what would happen. What we do on the battlefield - assumes responsibility. Fighter who launched equipment, should feel responsible as large as his equipment helps his team. Otherwise, it will look as if I could die, but my rifle continued to fire at the enemy. Launched equipment - is also means of combating, like a rifle. When I throw a Grenade, and I die, I still believe that Grenade should go off! Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 13272	Posted - 2014.11.18 14:55:00 - [32] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Can the Sentinel be given the same band width as an Assault, even though the Sentinel does not have an equipment slot? In Pub matches were no one is dropping Uplinks, I am sometimes forced to switch to another fit to place some uplinks. Once that is done I spawn in again in my preferred Sentinel fit after dying or finding a Supply Depot. If the Sentinel has no bandwidth I will be stuck playing a suit that has bandwidth in these situations, because my team needs an uplink or they will be red-lined. Exactly. The idea that if you want uplinks or ammo around "not only you must be a amarr or caldari Logi, you must only be these logis and anytime you are not one of these logis all of your stuff will die" Why would i want to restrict myself to just these suits every match? The example given only works out in the Gal facility, otherwise i do want my friend who threw down some uplinks to change suits to fight at the point because we need him there. I do want to be flexible enough to say "right, we formed a good battle line with hives and links but the red are pushing, i'll repawn as a heavy to hold tight, or an assualt/commando to hit em from range, or a scout to flank" without having to choose between perma running one suit to have any sort of equipment available to the team. I donGÇÖt mind so much having Bandwidth difference for Logi. Bandwidth will be GÇ£their thingGÇ¥. Someone who wants to play the Logi role will be fine with playing a Logi the whole match. They can still add their gun to the fight. What it will discourage is people who play other roles having a Logi Uplink fit that they use to seed an area and then switch to their main suit. I do this, and I will miss it, but as long as all suits have the bandwidth for a couple of pieces of equipment you can still deploy a few critical pieces of equipment, if you are not a Logi specialist. Which leads me back to a point I have been making. All non-logi suits (including Sentinel) should have the same Bandwidth, because Bandwidth is a Logi thing, and it should be kept simple for us non-logi. I find it very fitting for scouts to not have as much bandwidth as the Assault or Commando. We are limited by having 1 equipment slot, scouts having 2 makes them tread dangerously to Logi territory, and as such should have slightly stricter bandwidth. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
matsumoto yuichi san The Elite Few Inc. The Methodical Alliance 84	Posted - 2014.11.18 15:00:00 - [33] - Quote seems legit, ship it also for those complaining about the scout bandwidth, i dunno place one uplink not two or you know place two, but now you don't get uber grenades or forget that, and run active scanners, or needles, or rep tools or something :P you CAN still deploy 2 nanohives, or 2 uplinks, but that is it, shouldn't be a problem imho it means you have to change the playstyle for sure, same for the rooftop spawn spam EVERY equipment logi's too
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4879	Posted - 2014.11.18 15:01:00 - [34] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Only problem I have is the scout restrictions. Generally spawn in an advanced scout with cloak and drop 2 flux uplinks. Then on next spawn I spawn with an adv scout with remotes and cloak. Now, I am ok with a nerf where I can't run around covering loads of objectives with remotes with my uplinks still up. But I think it is too much of a nerf not being able to use remotes at all with a couple of uplinks running. Give scouts the same bandwidth as assaults and there will be no problems as far I'm concerned. Scouts shouldn't be the kings of deployables, I agree, but they are a central part of our battlefield role. 2 uplinks and a remote isn't spam or game breaking in my opinion. Meh, I personally disagree. I could understand having two low profile uplinks deployed behind enemy lines to give your team an advantage but having the ability to remote an objective (or god forbid start blowing up entire squads) on top of that, as well as all the inherent bonuses that a Scout gets to general combat as it is... Doesn't seem very fair. Personally, I think Scouts need to have more of a hard-chosen fitting scheme where they have to consider their options -before- spawning and I think having reduced equipment slots would be a good way of doing that. I advocated, back in 1.8, that Scouts have two equipment just to try it out. I even said, "They've been under powered for so long, let them be OP for a month". It's been over a year now, so I think it's time we try looking at other avenues to bring them back down in balance. Scouts have 2 equipment slots. Assault have 1 equipment slot. Give the Scout the same Bandwidth as the Assault. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 11621	Posted - 2014.11.18 15:01:00 - [35] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Only problem I have is the scout restrictions. Generally spawn in an advanced scout with cloak and drop 2 flux uplinks. Then on next spawn I spawn with an adv scout with remotes and cloak. Now, I am ok with a nerf where I can't run around covering loads of objectives with remotes with my uplinks still up. But I think it is too much of a nerf not being able to use remotes at all with a couple of uplinks running. Give scouts the same bandwidth as assaults and there will be no problems as far I'm concerned. Scouts shouldn't be the kings of deployables, I agree, but they are a central part of our battlefield role. 2 uplinks and a remote isn't spam or game breaking in my opinion. Meh, I personally disagree. I could understand having two low profile uplinks deployed behind enemy lines to give your team an advantage but having the ability to remote an objective (or god forbid start blowing up entire squads) on top of that, as well as all the inherent bonuses that a Scout gets to general combat as it is... Doesn't seem very fair. Personally, I think Scouts need to have more of a hard-chosen fitting scheme where they have to consider their options -before- spawning and I think having reduced equipment slots would be a good way of doing that. I advocated, back in 1.8, that Scouts have two equipment just to try it out. I even said, "They've been under powered for so long, let them be OP for a month". It's been over a year now, so I think it's time we try looking at other avenues to bring them back down in balance. I tend to agree, Scouts have been doing everything well for some time now. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 11621	Posted - 2014.11.18 15:02:00 - [36] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: John Psi wrote: It's very simple - the equipment running from any suit should not live longer this suit. Suit die or refitted - equipment DOWN. So the roll of a Logi should be to cower in a corner once all their equipment is deployed? Nono, as long as you respawn in a Logi again, they stay up. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

matsumoto yuichi san The Elite Few Inc. The Methodical Alliance 84	Posted - 2014.11.18 15:06:00 - [37] - Quote mr ratatti i would like to say nice work on these proposals, i had a nice number tweak to the scan precision rings one, no one commented as to what they thought about it though, (it looks like it lines up real nice in terms of tit for tat) so give it a looksy if you haven't http://goo.gl/JNGFOJ <---my numbers
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4879	Posted - 2014.11.18 15:06:00 - [38] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Another idea on top: A module that increases equipment bandwidth, sacrificing a bit of your suit to increase your support powah. Or a piece of equipment that increases your equipment BandwidthGÇª Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4879	Posted - 2014.11.18 15:08:00 - [39] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: John Psi wrote: It's very simple - the equipment running from any suit should not live longer this suit. Suit die or refitted - equipment DOWN. So the roll of a Logi should be to cower in a corner once all their equipment is deployed? Nono, as long as you respawn in a Logi again, they stay up. I know, I was responding to John Psi's suggestion of how things should be. Just pointing out a glaring flaw in his suggestion. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2588	Posted - 2014.11.18 15:09:00 - [40] - Quote Looks good, no real issues that I can see. Though it is going to be a pain to keep links up now. Dust is there! I was real! Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~

Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4880	Posted - 2014.11.18 15:13:00 - [41] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Can the Sentinel be given the same band width as an Assault, even though the Sentinel does not have an equipment slot? In Pub matches were no one is dropping Uplinks, I am sometimes forced to switch to another fit to place some uplinks. Once that is done I spawn in again in my preferred Sentinel fit after dying or finding a Supply Depot. If the Sentinel has no bandwidth I will be stuck playing a suit that has bandwidth in these situations, because my team needs an uplink or they will be red-lined. Exactly. The idea that if you want uplinks or ammo around "not only you must be a amarr or caldari Logi, you must only be these logis and anytime you are not one of these logis all of your stuff will die" Why would i want to restrict myself to just these suits every match? The example given only works out in the Gal facility, otherwise i do want my friend who threw down some uplinks to change suits to fight at the point because we need him there. I do want to be flexible enough to say "right, we formed a good battle line with hives and links but the red are pushing, i'll repawn as a heavy to hold tight, or an assualt/commando to hit em from range, or a scout to flank" without having to choose between perma running one suit to have any sort of equipment available to the team. I donGÇÖt mind so much having Bandwidth difference for Logi. Bandwidth will be GÇ£their thingGÇ¥. Someone who wants to play the Logi role will be fine with playing a Logi the whole match. They can still add their gun to the fight. What it will discourage is people who play other roles having a Logi Uplink fit that they use to seed an area and then switch to their main suit. I do this, and I will miss it, but as long as all suits have the bandwidth for a couple of pieces of equipment you can still deploy a few critical pieces of equipment, if you are not a Logi specialist. Which leads me back to a point I have been making. All non-logi suits (including Sentinel) should have the same Bandwidth, because Bandwidth is a Logi thing, and it should be kept simple for us non-logi. I find it very fitting for scouts to not have as much bandwidth as the Assault or Commando. We are limited by having 1 equipment slot, scouts having 2 makes them tread dangerously to Logi territory, and as such should have slightly stricter bandwidth. WouldnGÇÖt giving them the SAME Bandwidth as a suit with only 1 equipment slot already do that? Why make Bandwidth complicated for non-logi? Why not extend Bandwidth to ALL equipment. I am sure the Rep Tool is not manually operated. You might aim it, but it is your suitGÇÖs onboard computer that controls the stream to compensate for distance and interference. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
John Psi Vacuum Cleaner. LLC Steel Balls Alliance 1019	Posted - 2014.11.18 15:18:00 - [42] - Quote Guys, Ratatti, let me explain what is happening now. In serious fights we have the following scenario: 1. At the beginning of battle HALF fighters planted in logi. 2. Equipment spam, die or refit to assaults/scouts/etc 3. No logi in a fight. Equipment Bandwidth did not save us from the problems, scenario would be: 1. At the beginning of battle ALL fighters planted with equipment fit variant. 2. Equipment spam, die or refit to simular Bandwidth suit (battle fit variant). 3. No logi in a fight. I understand that the current scenario is simple and effective. Just want to remind you that we wanna play not a Mario style game. Please support fair play!
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 399	Posted - 2014.11.18 15:20:00 - [43] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: John Psi wrote: It's very simple - the equipment running from any suit should not live longer this suit. Suit die or refitted - equipment DOWN. So the roll of a Logi should be to cower in a corner once all their equipment is deployed? Nono, as long as you respawn in a Logi again, they stay up. This right here is a massive problem. If i want to redploy i can only choose a logi suit, or be penalized for bringing ina logi suit in the first place. Scenario: Run in with amarr logi. Drop links. Fight some more killed by heavy. I cannot pick a Scout to out flank it, or a min scout to run around and hack. Can't pick another heavy to defend the spawn area. Can't pick assault or commando to push onward. My uplinks will be destroyed if I spawn in anything but a logi, thus defeating the initial purpose of bringing uplinks to begin with, so i can respawn with my squad in a good, safe location. Flexibility will be fine for any other suit, switching an assault to a commando, a scout to heavy, etc. The only suit/players to be penalized for being flexible are amarr and caldari logis to a large extent, to a lessre extent any other logi. The message to them is "you had better not change suits or else your bonus, isk, and SP investment = zero". Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 13273	Posted - 2014.11.18 15:20:00 - [44] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Can the Sentinel be given the same band width as an Assault, even though the Sentinel does not have an equipment slot? In Pub matches were no one is dropping Uplinks, I am sometimes forced to switch to another fit to place some uplinks. Once that is done I spawn in again in my preferred Sentinel fit after dying or finding a Supply Depot. If the Sentinel has no bandwidth I will be stuck playing a suit that has bandwidth in these situations, because my team needs an uplink or they will be red-lined. Exactly. The idea that if you want uplinks or ammo around "not only you must be a amarr or caldari Logi, you must only be these logis and anytime you are not one of these logis all of your stuff will die" Why would i want to restrict myself to just these suits every match? The example given only works out in the Gal facility, otherwise i do want my friend who threw down some uplinks to change suits to fight at the point because we need him there. I do want to be flexible enough to say "right, we formed a good battle line with hives and links but the red are pushing, i'll repawn as a heavy to hold tight, or an assualt/commando to hit em from range, or a scout to flank" without having to choose between perma running one suit to have any sort of equipment available to the team. I donGÇÖt mind so much having Bandwidth difference for Logi. Bandwidth will be GÇ£their thingGÇ¥. Someone who wants to play the Logi role will be fine with playing a Logi the whole match. They can still add their gun to the fight. What it will discourage is people who play other roles having a Logi Uplink fit that they use to seed an area and then switch to their main suit. I do this, and I will miss it, but as long as all suits have the bandwidth for a couple of pieces of equipment you can still deploy a few critical pieces of equipment, if you are not a Logi specialist. Which leads me back to a point I have been making. All non-logi suits (including Sentinel) should have the same Bandwidth, because Bandwidth is a Logi thing, and it should be kept simple for us non-logi. I find it very fitting for scouts to not have as much bandwidth as the Assault or Commando. We are limited by having 1 equipment slot, scouts having 2 makes them tread dangerously to Logi territory, and as such should have slightly stricter bandwidth. WouldnGÇÖt giving them the SAME Bandwidth as a suit with only 1 equipment slot already do that? Why make Bandwidth complicated for non-logi? Not really, we have more bandwidth than we actually need for one equipment. Giving scouts the same amount would make them slightly too free with equipment, at least in my opinion. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1292	Posted - 2014.11.18 15:33:00 - [45] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: John Psi wrote: It's very simple - the equipment running from any suit should not live longer this suit. Suit die or refitted - equipment DOWN. So the roll of a Logi should be to cower in a corner once all their equipment is deployed? Nono, as long as you respawn in a Logi again, they stay up. Rattati...quick point on this. It does limit the tactical flexibility players have when they get painted into a corner (i.e. perhaps too steep a cost for switching roles in the match). The ability to adapt mid-game between suits / fits ect is at least for me a major positive of the game and this may induce too steep a penalty. Consider this...quite a few dedicated Logi players also play Sentinel as well. Imagine dropping a couple uplinks and seeding your nanohives and if it looks like the enemy push is gaining momentum you switch to your heavy hmg and poof...the hardpoint you had set up to support your team is gone. That said, I do generally like the idea of bandwidth and the thought process of deriving it from EVE. I think it's also key to remember that in EVE you don't die (i.e. lose ships) nearly on the same scale as Dust. Also, when you die in EVE the drones still stay in space and don't die with you. I think with perhaps some tweaks this system could work in Dust but I'm not sure quite how to implement it at the moment. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4880	Posted - 2014.11.18 15:33:00 - [46] - Quote John Psi wrote: Guys, Ratatti, let me explain what is happening now. In serious fights we have the following scenario: 1. At the beginning of battle HALF fighters planted in logi. 2. Equipment spam, die or refit to assaults/scouts/etc 3. No logi in a fight. Equipment Bandwidth did not save us from the problems, scenario would be: 1. At the beginning of battle ALL fighters planted with equipment fit variant. 2. Equipment spam, die or refit to simular Bandwidth suit (battle fit variant). 3. No logi in a fight. I understand that the current scenario is simple and effective. Just want to remind you that we wanna play not a Mario style game. 1)Your suggested solution of having equipment die when the person who places them dies will mean that every member of the team will have to quip Uplinks all the time, just to insure there are always uplinks up. No one would play logi, because the only effective way to keep your Uplinks up after you placed them would be to withdraw from the fight. No team wants to be down a man, so Logi would be useless in PC. 2)With RattatiGÇÖs Bandwidth solution, an entire team of non logi would not be able to place more equipment than two Logi with multiple fits in the current scenario. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Vell0cet Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2576	Posted - 2014.11.18 15:36:00 - [47] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Only problem I have is the scout restrictions. Generally spawn in an advanced scout with cloak and drop 2 flux uplinks. Then on next spawn I spawn with an adv scout with remotes and cloak. Now, I am ok with a nerf where I can't run around covering loads of objectives with remotes with my uplinks still up. But I think it is too much of a nerf not being able to use remotes at all with a couple of uplinks running. Give scouts the same bandwidth as assaults and there will be no problems as far I'm concerned. Scouts shouldn't be the kings of deployables, I agree, but they are a central part of our battlefield role. 2 uplinks and a remote isn't spam or game breaking in my opinion. Meh, I personally disagree. I could understand having two low profile uplinks deployed behind enemy lines to give your team an advantage but having the ability to remote an objective (or god forbid start blowing up entire squads) on top of that, as well as all the inherent bonuses that a Scout gets to general combat as it is... Doesn't seem very fair. Personally, I think Scouts need to have more of a hard-chosen fitting scheme where they have to consider their options -before- spawning and I think having reduced equipment slots would be a good way of doing that. I advocated, back in 1.8, that Scouts have two equipment just to try it out. I even said, "They've been under powered for so long, let them be OP for a month". It's been over a year now, so I think it's time we try looking at other avenues to bring them back down in balance. I tend to agree, Scouts have been doing everything well for some time now. With regards to scouts, what I love about this proposal is that it allows them to keep their 2nd equipment slot, but provides a mechanism to counter-balance that. Best PvE idea ever!
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1293	Posted - 2014.11.18 15:41:00 - [48] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: John Psi wrote: It's very simple - the equipment running from any suit should not live longer this suit. Suit die or refitted - equipment DOWN. So the roll of a Logi should be to cower in a corner once all their equipment is deployed? Nono, as long as you respawn in a Logi again, they stay up. This right here is a massive problem. If i want to redploy i can only choose a logi suit, or be penalized for bringing ina logi suit in the first place. Scenario: Run in with amarr logi. Drop links. Fight some more killed by heavy. I cannot pick a Scout to out flank it, or a min scout to run around and hack. Can't pick another heavy to defend the spawn area. Can't pick assault or commando to push onward. My uplinks will be destroyed if I spawn in anything but a logi, thus defeating the initial purpose of bringing uplinks to begin with, so i can respawn with my squad in a good, safe location. Flexibility will be fine for any other suit, switching an assault to a commando, a scout to heavy, etc. The only suit/players to be penalized for being flexible are amarr and caldari logis to a large extent, to a lessre extent any other logi. The message to them is "you had better not change suits or else your bonus, isk, and SP investment = zero". Tesfa, spot on. Imagine if you told other roles (Scout, Assault, Commando, Sentinel) that if they swapped out of their roles to Logi they would lose kills or the enemy would regain clones. That's clearly an over the top example but it really does is highlight the penalty applied to Logi players. If there was a way to offset this by incentivizing folks to stay in support roles through positive effects and not just penalties. ps...I would like to see how this works with Logi suit / role updates that may be coming up. Bandwidth, equip slots, suit specs, and role/racial bonus all starts to connect in this discussion. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4881	Posted - 2014.11.18 15:44:00 - [49] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: WouldnGÇÖt giving them the SAME Bandwidth as a suit with only 1 equipment slot already do that? Why make Bandwidth complicated for non-logi? Not really, we have more bandwidth than we actually need for one equipment. Giving scouts the same amount would make them slightly too free with equipment, at least in my opinion. Then have Bandwidth apply to all equipment, not just deployables. Have the Scout CPU/PG reduction bonus to fitting the Cloak also apply to Cloaking Device Bandwidth. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
voidfaction Nos Nothi 644	Posted - 2014.11.18 15:46:00 - [50] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: John Psi wrote: It's very simple - the equipment running from any suit should not live longer this suit. Suit die or refitted - equipment DOWN. So the roll of a Logi should be to cower in a corner once all their equipment is deployed? Nono, as long as you respawn in a Logi again, they stay up. So drop equipment then change to your slayer logi fit.

Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 9222	Posted - 2014.11.18 15:47:00 - [51] - Quote I love that players would have to actually make a choice with this proposal. As a scout, do I want to run multiple uplinks our do I want to be able to plant RE's? Not that I can't do both, but not at the same time. About time players start making choices instead of having it all. Amarr are the good guys Join "PIE Ground Control" for secure Amarr FW syncing and orbital support
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 9224	Posted - 2014.11.18 15:49:00 - [52] - Quote voidfaction wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: John Psi wrote: It's very simple - the equipment running from any suit should not live longer this suit. Suit die or refitted - equipment DOWN. So the roll of a Logi should be to cower in a corner once all their equipment is deployed? Nono, as long as you respawn in a Logi again, they stay up. So drop equipment then change to your slayer logi fit. Better than drop equipment and change to sentinel. Amarr are the good guys Join "PIE Ground Control" for secure Amarr FW syncing and orbital support

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 11630	Posted - 2014.11.18 15:51:00 - [53] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: John Psi wrote: It's very simple - the equipment running from any suit should not live longer this suit. Suit die or refitted - equipment DOWN. So the roll of a Logi should be to cower in a corner once all their equipment is deployed? Nono, as long as you respawn in a Logi again, they stay up. Rattati...quick point on this. It does limit the tactical flexibility players have when they get painted into a corner (i.e. perhaps too steep a cost for switching roles in the match). The ability to adapt mid-game between suits / fits ect is at least for me a major positive of the game and this may induce too steep a penalty. Consider this...quite a few dedicated Logi players also play Sentinel as well. Imagine dropping a couple uplinks and seeding your nanohives and if it looks like the enemy push is gaining momentum you switch to your heavy hmg and poof...the hardpoint you had set up to support your team is gone. Yes, you made a decision to sacrifice one advantage for another, or you can choose to not do that. That's kind of the point. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Minime Al Alteredgenetic 29	Posted - 2014.11.18 15:53:00 - [54] - Quote 1. Reduce the number of "drop" equipment (but increase bonuses) 2. Maybe radius for equipment. In that you can't drop same. 3. Rebuild logi bonuses - your staff have buff or work - while you are stay in logi suit or stay close. a. A lot of us use drop links on scout b. What if nano hive work when logi around or something like this c. Give us nano hive ( medic ) as own equipment - only restore health d. You are talk about "passive scan" equipment
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. 2488	Posted - 2014.11.18 15:55:00 - [55] - Quote First off, Put the proper time and effort into Fixing Needles. You have effectively killed it and removed an entire part of the game that could of been great. I Have spent two years posting about Needles. I Have posts with thousands of likes regarding -1 death from needle use. Logis are fine with a WP cap over time for reviving, everyone is fine with it. Removing an entire part of the game instead of building and adding to it... IS going backwards. I Hate "I Told you So's" But there are hundreds of times now that I have given CCP plenty of forward warning about purposed changes that will hurt the game and they went ahead and screwed themselves anyway. IS there a point to feedback if a Developers mind is already closed?
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4881	Posted - 2014.11.18 16:04:00 - [56] - Quote So, my suggestions so far: -Make Bandwidth apply to all equipment. -Give Scouts a Bandwidth reduction bonus for Cloaks. -Give all non-logi suits, including Sentinel, the same Bandwidth by suit tier. -Add a piece of Equipment that will boost Bandwidth, but will take up an Equipment slot. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
John Psi Vacuum Cleaner. LLC Steel Balls Alliance 1020	Posted - 2014.11.18 16:30:00 - [57] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Your suggested solution of having equipment die when the person who places them dies will mean that every member of the team will have to quip Uplinks all the time, just to insure there are always uplinks up. No one would play logi, because the only effective way to keep your Uplinks up after you placed them would be to withdraw from the fight. No team wants to be down a man, so Logi would be useless in PC. Absolutley correct. Logi has no place in combat, since losing the efficiency over for asault/scout/etc. Nobody wants to lose better fighter in pursuit of efficiency, it makes logi stupid suit for battlefield preparation. You can remove his rifle - he does not need. Once equpment drop - play Mario. Please support fair play!
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4672	Posted - 2014.11.18 16:31:00 - [58] - Quote Bethhy wrote: First off, Put the proper time and effort into Fixing Needles. You have effectively killed it and removed an entire part of the game that could of been great. I Have spent two years posting about Needles. I Have posts with thousands of likes regarding -1 death from needle use. Logis are fine with a WP cap over time for reviving, everyone is fine with it. Removing an entire part of the game instead of building and adding to it... IS going backwards. I Hate "I Told you So's" But there are hundreds of times now that I have given CCP plenty of forward warning about purposed changes that will hurt the game and they went ahead and screwed themselves anyway. IS there a point to feedback if a Developers mind is already closed? Fixing needles? what's wrong with them? B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4672	Posted - 2014.11.18 16:32:00 - [59] - Quote John Psi wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: [quote=John Psi]Your suggested solution of having equipment die when the person who places them dies will mean that every member of the team will have to quip Uplinks all the time, just to insure there are always uplinks up. No one would play logi, because the only effective way to keep your Uplinks up after you placed them would be to withdraw from the fight. No team wants to be down a man, so Logi would be useless in PC. Absolutley correct. Logi has no place in combat, since losing the efficiency over for asault/scout/etc. Nobody wants to lose better fighter in pursuit of efficiency, it makes logi stupid suit for battlefield preparation. You can remove his rifle - he does not need. Once equpment drop - play Mario. Yeah no, I disagree...but if you go spawn in as a heavy..yeah all dat logi equipment say bye bye. B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 1965	Posted - 2014.11.18 16:34:00 - [60] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear Players Based on a lot of feedback, both from CPM, Community and previous CCP designs, one of the things we are able to conjure up is the much wanted Equipment Bandwidth feature. * We want to fix Equipment spam to increase framerate * We want Quality over Quantity Equipment gameplay * We want a solid Logistics progression at using Equipment * We want Logistics to excel at using Equipment, and other roles less so * We want Equipment diversity Now, we want to get your feedback as early as possible, so chime in. But here are some clarifications of intent. Equipment Limit The main design is primarily based off of Drones in EVE. Every dropsuit has a built-in Equipment Controller, which has a certain Bandwidth Capacity (in MHz). That Controller Bandwidth is used to manage deployed Equipment through constant signaling. Each piece of deployed Equipment has a different Bandwidth Cost (or Usage). Note that all Equipment still has the same current limitations of GÇPdeployed per typeGÇ£. Obviously Logistics are made for this purpose, and some Logistics more than others. In the case of deployed Equipment Bandwidth exceeding the Players current Bandwidth, deployed Equipment self-destructs instantly, in the sequence it was deployed. In the attached spreadsheet, we show an example of such a scenario. This feature will allow proper Logistics to excel at their deployment role, while keeping Assaults & Commandos relatively useful and Scouts will be diminished in capability as they were never meant to be a king of deployables, the additional slot was added for the Cloak Field. Quality over Quantity We want players to use the best Equipment they have at their disposal. ThatGÇÖs why Bandwidth will not increase with item tiers. We also have the capability and intent to reduce Scan Profile with tiers, so Advanced and Complex gear is not as easy to scan. However, this also allows us to increase the carried amount, for rapid redeployment. Spawn first Nanohive and Drop Uplink at point A, redeploy to Objective B, spawn second Nanohive and Drop Uplink, and so on. Stay out of trouble and you wonGÇÖt need to switch or restock for quite some time. Progression Logistics will have the, by far, the highest Bandwidth, with Caldari and Amarr the highest. We may need to reword or change some of their role bonuses. Bandwith progression will follow the Equipment slot progression so a Logistics player can almost always use their full allotment of deployable Equipment. Logistics vs other Dropsuits One of the key aspects of this proposal is that all Equipment is tied to the active Dropsuit of the Player. Switch from a suit with a high Bandwidth to another suit with lower Bandwidth, and the signal is lost. This means that starting as a Logistics dropsuit, throw down as much cheap Equipment as possible, then switch into another Logistics dropsuit at a Supply Depot, repeat and then finally switch into another role, Sentinel, Scout, Assault or Commando, will not be possible anymore. Diversity We can now influence players to use more Proximity Mines for example, as Scan Profile will allow them to be hidden from low Precision Vehicle Players, as well as having a lower Bandwidth Cost, allowing more at the same time, without allowing more Uplinks and Nanohives. Extra damage wouldnGÇÖt hurt either. Now, to the numbers found in this spreadsheet. Please remember that these numbers are placeholders, and are definitely up for debate so form your arguments for changes into clear and concise statements. Please read the Example as well, it should explain the whole design clearly. Again, your feedback and input is appreciated. couldnt you just simply remove the "max carried" from equipment (except RE) and tweek equipment so you cannot flood the map with varients and just be limited to 1-3 max active (depending on meta/varient) this woudl also help improve logis by prox of being able to carry unlimieted ammo packs in a way which still need to be dropped and then wait as ammo resupplies. one problem could be equipment boosting.. so maybe give equipment a cooldown time like active scanners before you can place any more then the current max active, of which older equipment would pop thus NOT having more then your allocated limit of ammo. now.. i can imagine cal logi with triage hives.. he or she gets to point a.. drops one or two.. then untill he or she goes and changes suit at a depo or dies and respawns they have no real way to pick them up and move them.. so my idea of SELF REPLICATING EQUIPMENT comes into play... new cal logi, drops triage hive for an engagment.. moves on.. drops triage hive for 2nd engagment moves on, drops a 3rd.. first one pops.. moves on.. and so on.. this is the kind of buff we need to equipment.. including prox mines(the most underused equipment in game) [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 1 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7

Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 1965	Posted - 2014.11.18 16:36:00 - [61] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: John Psi wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: [quote=John Psi]Your suggested solution of having equipment die when the person who places them dies will mean that every member of the team will have to quip Uplinks all the time, just to insure there are always uplinks up. No one would play logi, because the only effective way to keep your Uplinks up after you placed them would be to withdraw from the fight. No team wants to be down a man, so Logi would be useless in PC. Absolutley correct. Logi has no place in combat, since losing the efficiency over for asault/scout/etc. Nobody wants to lose better fighter in pursuit of efficiency, it makes logi stupid suit for battlefield preparation. You can remove his rifle - he does not need. Once equpment drop - play Mario. Yeah no, I disagree...but if you go spawn in as a heavy..yeah all dat logi equipment say bye bye. this dosnt matter.. its just stupid... if equipment were to expire when a logi died (which is goddamned often due to being slow/low ehp/yellow will just make EVERYONE persecute logi even more meaning NO ONE even die hard logi like myself would want to play logi anymore. [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 1 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 13274	Posted - 2014.11.18 16:37:00 - [62] - Quote We would need clear UI to tell us bandwidth information. It needs to not clutter our screen, so only make it active when we have equipment out, and it should tell us these things: Total bandwidth on the suit Bandwidth currently used List of equipment deployed, the bottom equipment being destroyed in the case of bandwidth overload Currently held equipment How much the currently held equipment will take from said bar I have made an illustration of what I mean (Excuse my very basic knowledge of photoshop): http://i.imgur.com/l4n5ef9.jpg - Enough bandwidth to drop equipment http://i.imgur.com/XmeNLg5.jpg - Not enough bandwidth to drop equipment In the equipment list, green is the item not yet deployed, blue are the deployed items, and red is the item that will be destroyed upon deployment of green. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Minime Al Alteredgenetic 29	Posted - 2014.11.18 16:38:00 - [63] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Bethhy wrote: First off, Put the proper time and effort into Fixing Needles. You have effectively killed it and removed an entire part of the game that could of been great. I Have spent two years posting about Needles. I Have posts with thousands of likes regarding -1 death from needle use. Logis are fine with a WP cap over time for reviving, everyone is fine with it. Removing an entire part of the game instead of building and adding to it... IS going backwards. I Hate "I Told you So's" But there are hundreds of times now that I have given CCP plenty of forward warning about purposed changes that will hurt the game and they went ahead and screwed themselves anyway. IS there a point to feedback if a Developers mind is already closed? Fixing needles? what's wrong with them? In team they ok. Solo - they useless.
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4673	Posted - 2014.11.18 16:41:00 - [64] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Yeah no, I disagree...but if you go spawn in as a heavy..yeah all dat logi equipment say bye bye. this dosnt matter.. its just stupid... if equipment were to expire when a logi died (which is goddamned often due to being slow/low ehp/yellow will just make EVERYONE persecute logi even more meaning NO ONE even die hard logi like myself would want to play logi anymore.[/quote] If you spawn back in a logi suit...your equipment should persist from the previous life. if you spawn in an assault...equipment from your previous logi life should pop until you get down to your current suits allotted bandwidth. B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 401	Posted - 2014.11.18 16:46:00 - [65] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Yes, you made a decision to sacrifice one advantage for another, or you can choose to not do that. That's kind of the point. For a scout yes, its which peice of quipment do i carry while i'm slaying. A scouts bonus isn't tied to equippment save a cloak. For any player running a logi, you have to sacrifice every other suit your specced into just to keep uplinks/nanohives up. The changes drastically restrict anybody running a logi to one suit. Any player not running deployables can switch between a scout, heavy, logi, assault, commando. Any amarr logi can only run amarr logi, and lose everything if he spawns anything other but an amarr logi. What has been taken into consideration to negate this? Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4673	Posted - 2014.11.18 16:46:00 - [66] - Quote Minime Al wrote: In team they ok. Solo - they useless. Why? People don't wait for them? People don't use them? I mean...there's plenty of things that are going to get used less in pubs vs a team environment. (you know how often i notice a person with hack modules on?) B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 13274	Posted - 2014.11.18 16:48:00 - [67] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Yes, you made a decision to sacrifice one advantage for another, or you can choose to not do that. That's kind of the point. For a scout yes, its which peice of quipment do i carry while i'm slaying. A scouts bonus isn't tied to equippment save a cloak. For any player running a logi, you have to sacrifice every other suit your specced into just to keep uplinks/nanohives up. The changes drastically restrict anybody running a logi to one suit. Any player not running deployables can switch between a scout, heavy, logi, assault, commando. Any amarr logi can only run amarr logi, and lose everything if he spawns anything other but an amarr logi. What has been taken into consideration to negate this? We can switch to a scout, heavy, log, assault and commando while giving up the strengths and weaknesses of our previous suit for the strengths and weaknesses of a new suit. Logis are no different, their strength being a lot of equipment, weakness being general combat ability. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4883	Posted - 2014.11.18 16:50:00 - [68] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: We would need clear UI to tell us bandwidth information. It needs to not clutter our screen, so only make it active when we have equipment out, and it should tell us these things: Total bandwidth on the suit Bandwidth currently used List of equipment deployed, the bottom equipment being destroyed in the case of bandwidth overload Currently held equipment How much the currently held equipment will take from said bar I have made an illustration of what I mean (Excuse my very basic knowledge of photoshop): http://i.imgur.com/l4n5ef9.jpg - Enough bandwidth to drop equipment http://i.imgur.com/XmeNLg5.jpg - Not enough bandwidth to drop equipment In the equipment list, green is the item not yet deployed, blue are the deployed items, and red is the item that will be destroyed upon deployment of green. Nice mock-up. That would be very helpful. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4673	Posted - 2014.11.18 16:52:00 - [69] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: A couple points about some of this. Scouts with two slots aka the scout logi: This is rarely used to deploy equipment at logistic levels. They will still use a rep tool and needles just as well as any non minmatar logi, or the same with uplinks with any non amarr logi. I don't see any change here. The only deployable they spam are R.Es, which has its own major issues. Quality: Then there must be a decrease in high tier equipment prices. Proto equiment, especially nano hives are tremendously expensive both in terms of PG/CPU and isk. In PC it's much more conducive to run a scout with 2 links than a logi because scanning immunity means you can operate unimpeded and you're much quicker about it. Scouts are the logi's of the competitive scene. The barbershop often says a scanned scout is a dead scout In PC...a scanned anything is a dead anything unless you're a blob or a heavy I seriously believe ether logi's should just get another 25% buff to fitting equipment. Equipment fitting costs should be one of the incentives to running a logi suit. B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Raffael-Puma Austria Storm.Fighters E.B.O.L.A. 0	Posted - 2014.11.18 17:02:00 - [70] - Quote Don't change anything! CCP what is wrong with you ??? Never touch a running system!!!!! The havys need 25.000-50.000HP and the logi 15.000 or 40.000HP, i know it looks very crazy and stupid but CCP you have the same stupid ideas like me! The logistic suites should have 12-15slots and not 8! And more equipment slots, because the scout have 2 and the logi ony 4, logis should have 8 equipment slots on pro or better in a officer suite for 250-500.000 isk per suite! I hate Update 1.9 and RailRifle fix! Only selfrepair is cool, but havy need more HP/s

Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4883	Posted - 2014.11.18 17:06:00 - [71] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Yes, you made a decision to sacrifice one advantage for another, or you can choose to not do that. That's kind of the point. For a scout yes, its which peice of quipment do i carry while i'm slaying. A scouts bonus isn't tied to equippment save a cloak. For any player running a logi, you have to sacrifice every other suit your specced into just to keep uplinks/nanohives up. The changes drastically restrict anybody running a logi to one suit. Any player not running deployables can switch between a scout, heavy, logi, assault, commando. Any amarr logi can only run amarr logi, and lose everything if he spawns anything other but an amarr logi. What has been taken into consideration to negate this? It would be a question of whether keeping the first two (or 3) pieces of equipment you dropped is more important than changing roles to react to a new situation. Maybe it would be better to change from a Rifle Logi fit to a Mass Driver Logi fit, rather than switching to a Sentinel? Maybe it is worth sacrificing some equipment to bring an HMG Sentinel in for point defence. Remember, the last couple of equipment you deployed will still be active (provided they give the Sentinel some Bandwidth). I see your point and partially agree with you, but I also think that Logi bonuses should only be available to Logi suits. I am all for switching fits to match the situation, but there has to be a limit to how many roles you can play at one time. It is not like ALL the Logi equipment will pop, just the some of it. In the current game, if I am running an Assault suit and placing Remote Explosives to guard objectives, and then I decide I need to place an Uplink, I have to sacrifice the ability to detonate the Remote Explosives to do so. It is a tactical decision over what is more useful to the team at that time. Sacrifices must sometimes be made. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4883	Posted - 2014.11.18 17:08:00 - [72] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Yes, you made a decision to sacrifice one advantage for another, or you can choose to not do that. That's kind of the point. For a scout yes, its which peice of quipment do i carry while i'm slaying. A scouts bonus isn't tied to equippment save a cloak. For any player running a logi, you have to sacrifice every other suit your specced into just to keep uplinks/nanohives up. The changes drastically restrict anybody running a logi to one suit. Any player not running deployables can switch between a scout, heavy, logi, assault, commando. Any amarr logi can only run amarr logi, and lose everything if he spawns anything other but an amarr logi. What has been taken into consideration to negate this? We can switch to a scout, heavy, log, assault and commando while giving up the strengths and weaknesses of our previous suit for the strengths and weaknesses of a new suit. Logis are no different, their strength being a lot of equipment, weakness being general combat ability. Sometimes you are more eloquent and concise than I am. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Llast 326 An Arkhos 5457	Posted - 2014.11.18 17:13:00 - [73] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: WouldnGÇÖt giving them the SAME Bandwidth as a suit with only 1 equipment slot already do that? Why make Bandwidth complicated for non-logi? Not really, we have more bandwidth than we actually need for one equipment. Giving scouts the same amount would make them slightly too free with equipment, at least in my opinion. Then have Bandwidth apply to all equipment, not just deployables. Have the Scout CPU/PG reduction bonus to fitting the Cloak also apply to Cloaking Device Bandwidth. Why run a cloak then, just double down on REGÇª That won't really be a positive thing judging by peoples vitriol for REs MOAR Ladders
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2588	Posted - 2014.11.18 17:15:00 - [74] - Quote Could we also get some sort of indication or HUD icon that displays how much bandwidth is left? Would also be good to see when links or hives have been destroyed. Dust is there! I was real! Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 1903	Posted - 2014.11.18 17:16:00 - [75] - Quote +1 very good General thoughts: We need actual numbers instead of placeholders to identify the problems. The mechanics behind your thinking are great, but we really need the BW data to determine if its fair to all roles. Some of the equipment BW cost is too similar, they need to vary by function and use, as usual uplinks should cost the most BW. Note: cost of the compact is too high. BW allotment should not scale quite so high IMO. I think all the prototype allotments are TOO high. There needs to be a decision making process on which equipment should go out. Currently at prototype tier there is still the ability to spam all your equipment. Commando and Assault should not have same allotment, progression is stated below in "other frames" @Scout A scout with 4 bandwidth doesn't seem all too bad IMO. I'm looking forward to the change in tactics (spawn in as speed tank scout with two uplinks, then switch to combat fit at depot) You mention that one slot is designated for cloak, but scouts can hardly fit cloak until they hit racial 5. This is something that needs to be addressed; please make the cloak fitting a role bonus. @Other frames I think your basic premise is solid. Support players should remain support if they want to leave their "support" oriented deployable on the field, awesome. The progression I see for BW amount is Sentinel->Scout->Commando->Assault->>Logi. I think 8 deployed items is still a ton of EQ on the field. That is too much and still elicits spam, we need them to make a choice. Should I toss down this repping nanohive, because it will cost me an uplink etc. There are multiple items in each stack of EQ, so losing an uplink to an important nanohive shouldn't be a problem. Needs We absolutely need a UI system to notify the players of their allotment. This allotment should also be shown on the fitting screen so we can judge how many of each equipped deployable we can place out. TL:DR Great start, needs further refinement, too much allotment, more variety of BW cost, needs UI. My Youtube Biomassed Podcast
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3896	Posted - 2014.11.18 17:16:00 - [76] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: Second thought: can we have drones pleaseeeeeee, legit question is it possible to implement personal drones? Overall I like this idea, +1 Last I heard drones have a performance cost equal to that of players in game so they are not really a viable option (over all a higher baseline performance and beyond that potentially more players per team would both be higher priorities I believe) See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
shaman oga The Dunwich Horror 3224	Posted - 2014.11.18 17:17:00 - [77] - Quote This change seem good, you choose one role for the match, you keep that role or you sacrify your deployable. I would like to point some things: 1) VERY IMPORTANT - remeber to show all the stats in game 2) If you will pass over your bandwith with the next equipment, can you show it in a different color in the radial menu? e.g. You have Proxy mines (2) and links (4), your limit is 16, you have deployed 3 hives (12) and 1 proxy (2), total is 14, can you show the next hive in yellow? 3) Will RE finally be treated like other equipments and not like ammo? If so, will we have the same number of active and carried equipment? Will not ask anything about logi slot progression.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 401	Posted - 2014.11.18 17:35:00 - [78] - Quote Quote: Zatara Rought wrote: Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Yeah no, I disagree...but if you go spawn in as a heavy..yeah all dat logi equipment say bye bye. this dosnt matter.. its just stupid... if equipment were to expire when a logi died (which is goddamned often due to being slow/low ehp/yellow will just make EVERYONE persecute logi even more meaning NO ONE even die hard logi like myself would want to play logi anymore. If you spawn back in a logi suit...your equipment should persist from the previous life. if you spawn in an assault...equipment from your previous logi life should pop until you get down to your current suits allotted bandwidth. What this proposal is designed to make pretty much the same as losing equipment when you die, except the small caveat that if you stick with a logi suit no matter what they stay alive. It give Logistic players a false choice between remaining in the same suit no matter what is happening or adapting to the battle and throw everything they brought with them in garbage. Scouts, assaults, commandos and heavies aren't being presented with this dilemma, so all they see it as is an over all reduction in equipment that they don't deploy or bring with them for individual use I see it as inflicting a severe penalty on logis or anyone who doesn't have just one suit, and finally rendering the amarrand caldari logi in thier current state as obsolete. Kill all the amarr/caldari logis when they finally change into a slayer fit to deal with heavies scouts assaults and commandos, all the equipment on the map dies with them. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Llast 326 An Arkhos 5457	Posted - 2014.11.18 17:40:00 - [79] - Quote I really think Proxies are going to need a serious looking at after this changeGÇª Pretty rare to see them used right now. When they are in competition with Uplinks and HivesGÇª they will become rare indeed. MOAR Ladders
dwater General Tso's Alliance 79	Posted - 2014.11.18 17:42:00 - [80] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: What this proposal is designed to make pretty much the same as losing equipment when you die, except the small caveat that if you stick with a logi suit no matter what they stay alive. It give Logistic players a false choice between remaining in the same suit no matter what is happening or adapting to the battle and throw everything they brought with them in garbage. Scouts, assaults, commandos and heavies aren't being presented with this dilemma, so all they see it as is an over all reduction in equipment that they don't deploy or bring with them for individual use I see it as inflicting a severe penalty on logis or anyone who doesn't have just one suit, and finally rendering the amarrand caldari logi in thier current state as obsolete. Kill all the amarr/caldari logis when they finally change into a slayer fit to deal with heavies scouts assaults and commandos, all the equipment on the map dies with them. I have cal logi and i don't see this problem the way you see it. If anything, in order to keep my equipment up I'd just swap to a slayer fit callogi and slay if the battle conditions as you call them change to try and deal with heavies and other stuff Sadly the reality is that NOTHING can deal with heavies and scouts except MORE heavies and scouts

Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 8508	Posted - 2014.11.18 17:46:00 - [81] - Quote This is some really great stuff. One question that's slightly off topic. DUST 514 does not have drones, obviously that would take too much work but what about deployable small sentry turrets? Have it be equipment and all the module does is allow you to place a defensive (or suppressive) equipment turret (small blaster, small missile, small rail) in an area of your choice and it guards the area within x meters. DUST used to have small turrets but I'm not sure what happened to them. This could be great and it seems more plausible than self thinking non static drones. Diversity = Healthy CCP holds the Caldari's hand so this doesn't happen again.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3896	Posted - 2014.11.18 17:49:00 - [82] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: +1 very good General thoughts: We need actual numbers instead of placeholders to identify the problems. The mechanics behind your thinking are great, but we really need the BW data to determine if its fair to all roles. Some of the equipment BW cost is too similar, they need to vary by function and use, as usual uplinks should cost the most BW. Note: cost of the compact is too high. BW allotment should not scale quite so high IMO. I think all the prototype allotments are TOO high. There needs to be a decision making process on which equipment should go out. Currently at prototype tier there is still the ability to spam all your equipment. Commando and Assault should not have same allotment, progression is stated below in "other frames" {Snip} @Other frames I think your basic premise is solid. Support players should remain support if they want to leave their "support" oriented deployable on the field, awesome. The progression I see for BW allotment is Sentinel->Scout->Commando->Assault->>Logi. I think 8 deployed items is still a ton of EQ on the field. That is too much and still elicits spam, we need them to make a choice. Should I toss down this repping nanohive, because it will cost me an uplink etc. There are multiple items in each stack of EQ, so losing an uplink to an important nanohive shouldn't be a problem. I have to vigorously disagree with this notion. The Logistics class is defined by it's ability to use equipment, both its suit stats and it's skill bonuses (racial and role) are devoted to this throttling the use of equipment for support players such that they are unable to employ all of their slots and skill buffs - if they have already made the sacrifices in fittings to have all of those present - is a further nerf to support play which is, bluntly, already in a sub-optimal state (especially the Cal and Amarr Logistics who would be hurt most severely by the alteration you propose). I also have to further disagree with your assessment of the compact hive, it is a 'one stop shop' for personal support and as such should not be an inexpensive bandwidth option, 3 for such a hive seems entirely reasonable within the context of the placeholder numbers I have seen. IgniteableAura wrote: Needs We absolutely need a UI system to notify the players of their allotment. This allotment should also be shown on the fitting screen (as well as in battle) so we can judge how many of each equipped deployable we can place out. This I unreservedly agree with, a UI for providing feedback to the players about their bandwidth status would be ideal. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
ContraBanJoe GOAT FLOCK YOURSELF FACTION WARFARE ALLIANCE 405	Posted - 2014.11.18 17:50:00 - [83] - Quote I notice there is a column in the spreadsheet beside the equipment called "Full". Can somebody explain what that represents? Overall (as a huge spam logi), I like the proposed changes, and will figure out how to adapt. FACTION WARFARE ALLIANCE PXRXO / FWARM / TTOTS / MXOXD / GFYOU DOUBLE FIST
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3896	Posted - 2014.11.18 17:53:00 - [84] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: This is awesome. Keep the stuff coming Rattati! Will this mean that equipment wont use CPU/PG anymore, or is BW another parameter on top of CPU/PG? BW is a new stat relevant to in match play, CPU/PG are out of match stats relevant to the building of fittings and the mechanics of their function will not be altered by the BW system. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Minime Al Alteredgenetic 29	Posted - 2014.11.18 17:57:00 - [85] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Minime Al wrote: In team they ok. Solo - they useless. Why? People don't wait for them? People don't use them? I mean...there's plenty of things that are going to get used less in pubs vs a team environment. (you know how often i notice a person with hack modules on?) My exemple. After changes I play some matches and no one ask for help. My action. ? Why I must spend equipment slot for nothing. I change it on RE, nano hives etc. In team - players discuss situation (revive or not) and do it right. Not everyone want win. Many just want WP. More WP. Other want be revived by profi, not by noob.... And ------- They just die. Many want good K/D. Maybe this is a problem. This must be reworked.
Jadek Menaheim Xer Cloud Consortium 4285	Posted - 2014.11.18 17:59:00 - [86] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Flexibility will be fine for any other suit, switching an assault to a commando, a scout to heavy, etc. The only suit/players to be penalized for being flexible are amarr and caldari logis to a large extent, to a lessre extent any other logi. The message to them is "you had better not change suits or else your bonus, isk, and SP investment = zero". This only really effects Amarr and Caldari logis if we're looking at it strictly from current racial bonuses. Gallente and Minmatar aren't tied to deployables. The mater becomes how do we address this possible sense of inflexibility of Amarr and Caldari logi player being locked into their suits to remain viable to the team. Try the new Planetary Conquest Mode!
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4974	Posted - 2014.11.18 18:01:00 - [87] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Can the Sentinel be given the same band width as an Assault, even though the Sentinel does not have an equipment slot? In Pub matches were no one is dropping Uplinks, I am sometimes forced to switch to another fit to place some uplinks. Once that is done I spawn in again in my preferred Sentinel fit after dying or finding a Supply Depot. If the Sentinel has no bandwidth I will be stuck playing a suit that has bandwidth in these situations, because my team needs an uplink or they will be red-lined. Exactly. The idea that if you want uplinks or ammo around "not only you must be a amarr or caldari Logi, you must only be these logis and anytime you are not one of these logis all of your stuff will die" Why would i want to restrict myself to just these suits every match? The example given only works out in the Gal facility, otherwise i do want my friend who threw down some uplinks to change suits to fight at the point because we need him there. I do want to be flexible enough to say "right, we formed a good battle line with hives and links but the red are pushing, i'll repawn as a heavy to hold tight, or an assualt/commando to hit em from range, or a scout to flank" without having to choose between perma running one suit to have any sort of equipment available to the team. Because do your job. It's my fault FA exists. Direct your rage to me.
matsumoto yuichi san The Elite Few Inc. The Methodical Alliance 84	Posted - 2014.11.18 18:01:00 - [88] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: John Psi wrote: It's very simple - the equipment running from any suit should not live longer this suit. Suit die or refitted - equipment DOWN. So the roll of a Logi should be to cower in a corner once all their equipment is deployed? Nono, as long as you respawn in a Logi again, they stay up. Rattati...quick point on this. It does limit the tactical flexibility players have when they get painted into a corner (i.e. perhaps too steep a cost for switching roles in the match). The ability to adapt mid-game between suits / fits ect is at least for me a major positive of the game and this may induce too steep a penalty. Consider this...quite a few dedicated Logi players also play Sentinel as well. Imagine dropping a couple uplinks and seeding your nanohives and if it looks like the enemy push is gaining momentum you switch to your heavy hmg and poof...the hardpoint you had set up to support your team is gone. Yes, you made a decision to sacrifice one advantage for another, or you can choose to not do that. That's kind of the point. you tell em ratatti, support via hmg sent OR via logi, can't get both, if you need a different logi fit, fine too, so long as BW on that fit is the same.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3897	Posted - 2014.11.18 18:06:00 - [89] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Quality: Then there must be a decrease in high tier equipment prices. Proto equiment, especially nano hives are tremendously expensive both in terms of PG/CPU and isk. Agreed that ISK prices on equipment should come down across the boards, strongly disagree that CPU/PG should be decreased. Tesfa Alem wrote: Logis vs other suits/ bandwidth: Be carefull of shoehorning players specced into logis into one single role. If i say deploy with my amarr logi and put down links, get killed, and my buddy's crying for backup. If i choose anything other than an amarr logi, I lose all of the equipment i spent a good deal of time and isk to deploy and put down, and now we look at at redeploying from the redline. Heaven forbid you switch out to a heavy, all the equipment brought dissapears. Equipment spam isn't cheap equippment being thrown down, its about lots of high tier equipment and suits being switched out at a supply depot. If you are playing a Heavy (either mando or sent) and swap to another suit you no longer have a heavy weapon or 2x light weapons, if you are playing a scout and swap to another suit you no longer have top flight mobility and eWar, if you are playing an assault and swap to a new frame you lose the bonus to racial weapons and weapons fittings. Now if you are playing a logi and you swap into another role so you are no longer playing a logi you no longer provide that support to your squad this appropriately will include equipment deployed beyond the BW of the new role you have chosen to play at that time. This is not shoehorning players into anything, this is applying an opportunity cost. Tesfa Alem wrote: MUST List bandwidth in fittings screen No point in fitting something i cannot deploy. Completely agree that BW should be listed prominently, however it should be on the equipment itself. The fittings screen cannot accurately display BW as the BW mechanic itself hinges on deployed equipment which is a variable effect, we need an in match UI for that purpose. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3897	Posted - 2014.11.18 18:07:00 - [90] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: I think it is very important to somehow show the bandwidth of current deployed equiment in the "spawn in" screen UI, and also to show "current selected dropsuit bandwidth" in order to be able to compare these two and make the right decision on the battlefield. Agreed. +1 See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)

Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2188	Posted - 2014.11.18 18:09:00 - [91] - Quote One issue I see: Cal/Amarr have the highest bandwidth but only 3 slots with which to fill it? Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3897	Posted - 2014.11.18 18:17:00 - [92] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Can the Sentinel be given the same band width as an Assault, even though the Sentinel does not have an equipment slot? In Pub matches were no one is dropping Uplinks, I am sometimes forced to switch to another fit to place some uplinks. Once that is done I spawn in again in my preferred Sentinel fit after dying or finding a Supply Depot. If the Sentinel has no bandwidth I will be stuck playing a suit that has bandwidth in these situations, because my team needs an uplink or they will be red-lined. With respect Fox being suck playing a suit with bandwidth if you want to have equipment deployed at any given level is exactly the point. There has been a lot of talk about a nerf to heavies, hmgs, or both, because of "heavy spam". However it is the current game and map meta not the class balance which feeds this proliferation of heavies. The Sentinel frame has zero equipment slots using depot/spawn swap as is currently possible gets around one of the fundamental drawbacks built into the frame and adds to the excessive proliferation of Sentinels on the field because if you can provide your own deployable support, gain scout level eWar from a friendly scout on the field, and use a LAV or DS for mobility the question effectively becomes why not use a Sentinel? The context which creates that last question needs addressed both for diversity of game play and for the preservation of the Sentinel role itself. 0.02 ISK Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
shaman oga The Dunwich Horror 3224	Posted - 2014.11.18 18:20:00 - [93] - Quote ContraBanJoe wrote: I notice there is a column in the spreadsheet beside the equipment called "Full". Can somebody explain what that represents? Overall (as a huge spam logi), I like the proposed changes, and will figure out how to adapt. It's BW cost* active basically the max equipment spam per type.
Nonoriri ko Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 8	Posted - 2014.11.18 18:24:00 - [94] - Quote I would like to see more hive types than just health and ammo. A hive that scans its area(inside the bubble) and relays to team. Great for choke points or objectives. A hive that allows a certain number of suit changes, like a supply depot. Best for last, a hive that links to another hive, when players on your team click on it or step on it, they teleport to the other hive. Like a "press circle to confirm" button.
Jadek Menaheim Xer Cloud Consortium 4285	Posted - 2014.11.18 18:27:00 - [95] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: With respect Fox being suck playing a suit with bandwidth if you want to have equipment deployed at any given level is exactly the point. My concerns cross is the frustration factor of having bandwidth combined with the personal orbital suggestion Rattati gave. Again, this is a nerf to logis that have a role bonus tied to deployables. Amarr isn't bad in terms of fitting diversity with the additional sidearm, however that's not the case for the Caldari Logi. If anything I would suggest adding a side arm to caldari logis to help improve gameplay experience/variety for being locked into a role in order to maintain your equipment. Try the new Planetary Conquest Mode!
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 7258	Posted - 2014.11.18 18:31:00 - [96] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: Second thought: can we have drones pleaseeeeeee, legit question is it possible to implement personal drones? Overall I like this idea, +1 Last I heard drones have a performance cost equal to that of players in game so they are not really a viable option (over all a higher baseline performance and beyond that potentially more players per team would both be higher priorities I believe) Maybe take away from installations or the vehicle cap if they're deployed and just give them stupidly high PG/CPU costs..? I think an anti-personnel drone in/near an objective is a lot more effective than an installation that gets blown up at the start of the match for free points. Long-Term Roadmap This Player is Against Proto BPOs
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 7258	Posted - 2014.11.18 18:36:00 - [97] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Can the Sentinel be given the same band width as an Assault, even though the Sentinel does not have an equipment slot? In Pub matches were no one is dropping Uplinks, I am sometimes forced to switch to another fit to place some uplinks. Once that is done I spawn in again in my preferred Sentinel fit after dying or finding a Supply Depot. If the Sentinel has no bandwidth I will be stuck playing a suit that has bandwidth in these situations, because my team needs an uplink or they will be red-lined. With respect Fox being suck playing a suit with bandwidth if you want to have equipment deployed at any given level is exactly the point. There has been a lot of talk about a nerf to heavies, hmgs, or both, because of "heavy spam". However it is the current game and map meta not the class balance which feeds this proliferation of heavies. The Sentinel frame has zero equipment slots using depot/spawn swap as is currently possible gets around one of the fundamental drawbacks built into the frame and adds to the excessive proliferation of Sentinels on the field because if you can provide your own deployable support, gain scout level eWar from a friendly scout on the field, and use a LAV or DS for mobility the question effectively becomes why not use a Sentinel? The context which creates that last question needs addressed both for diversity of game play and for the preservation of the Sentinel role itself. 0.02 ISK Cross On the contrary, Heavy proliferation started when they got an inadvertent buff in 1.8 when all weapons -besides- HMGs received a 10% damage nerf and Proficiency was changed. The HMG had a really good balance in 1.7 due to the implementation of proper spread and increased rate-of-fire (which sky rocketed it's DPS) but that balance was upset when it's DPS was left alone by comparison of it's competition. Scouts as well are remarkable counters toward Heavy spam because of their low profile and incredibly high alpha damage between Shotguns and Nova Knives. This, bearing in mind that shotguns haven't changed much, Scouts did. If HMGs received a DPS nerf to compensate for what the rest of us are dealing with, I think it'd establish a good balance. More-so then heat mitigation gameplay ever will. Talking 5%, 10% at most. It's not something we couldn't undo if it wound up being problematic either but experimenting with heat mitigation every hotfix clearly isn't warranting enough of an impact. Again, as previously stated elsewhere, the problem isn't so much the one heavy as ten heavies stacking on top of one another. That is something heat mitigation will never fix. Long-Term Roadmap This Player is Against Proto BPOs
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3155	Posted - 2014.11.18 18:42:00 - [98] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: DUST used to have small turrets but I'm not sure what happened to them. Gief small turrets!! We have a good platform to test them for potential use in Legion at least. Would really add another layer to the battlefield. EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet".
MrShooter01 Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 1070	Posted - 2014.11.18 18:44:00 - [99] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Logistics vs other Dropsuits One of the key aspects of this proposal is that all Equipment is tied to the active Dropsuit of the Player. Switch from a suit with a high Bandwidth to another suit with lower Bandwidth, and the signal is lost. This means that starting as a Logistics dropsuit, throw down as much cheap Equipment as possible, then switch into another Logistics dropsuit at a Supply Depot, repeat and then finally switch into another role, Sentinel, Scout, Assault or Commando, will not be possible anymore. One thing I'd like to point out here is that currently, equipment bonuses seem to disappear when you die. This is most noticeable as the Amarr logi, if you try to respawn on your own links you will see the spawn timer is the base length of the drop uplink without the amarr logi bonus. This change might have the unintended effect of destroying some (all?) of the logi's equipment when they die, regardless of if they respawn in the same suit Just want to make sure you tested this to make sure suit bandwidth actually persists while respawning since the amarr logi bonus doesn't Now, about scouts: If I'm reading the spreadsheet right, I can only toss one RE at the standard tier? That kinda sucks for vehicle hunting It'd take a lot more work to blow a tank with one RE at a time! Could I talk you into say giving the standard scouts 6 bandwidth and reducing RE cost to 2, allowing a scout to place 3 remotes while still not being able to place more than one piece of other equipment? Or perhaps RE cost to 3 and ADV scout bandwidth to 9? Throw me an explosive bone here!
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4975	Posted - 2014.11.18 18:45:00 - [100] - Quote HMG's kill at the appropriate rate inside of their cone of death, Aeon. You run into a heavy, you're supposed to die. Period. You nerf the HMG, and it will either change this situation or it won't. Changing the situation is unacceptable, because then the HMG fails in its role as a "Wrong time wrong place mother f***er" style of weapon. If a person can run from an HMG, then the heavy has effectively lost the long-term fight. He can now be flanked and has no means of chasing the enemy. It is absolutely imperative the heavy has enough DPS to slaughter anyone who runs into him the first time it happens. The HMG is the hard counter to impatient planning and stupidity. It is not the hard counter to high ground, cover, long range attacks, or mass driver shelling. There is therefore no need to nerf it and doing so would destroy the heavy suit. It's my fault FA exists. Direct your rage to me.

Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3155	Posted - 2014.11.18 18:45:00 - [101] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: This is awesome. Keep the stuff coming Rattati! Will this mean that equipment wont use CPU/PG anymore, or is BW another parameter on top of CPU/PG? BW is a new stat relevant to in match play, CPU/PG are out of match stats relevant to the building of fittings and the mechanics of their function will not be altered by the BW system. Ok, thanks for clarifying. EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet".
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 17746	Posted - 2014.11.18 18:48:00 - [102] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: John Psi wrote: It's very simple - the equipment running from any suit should not live longer this suit. Suit die or refitted - equipment DOWN. So the roll of a Logi should be to cower in a corner once all their equipment is deployed? Nono, as long as you respawn in a Logi again, they stay up. This right here is a massive problem. If i want to redploy i can only choose a logi suit, or be penalized for bringing ina logi suit in the first place. Scenario: Run in with amarr logi. Drop links. Fight some more killed by heavy. I cannot pick a Scout to out flank it, or a min scout to run around and hack. Can't pick another heavy to defend the spawn area. Can't pick assault or commando to push onward. My uplinks will be destroyed if I spawn in anything but a logi, thus defeating the initial purpose of bringing uplinks to begin with, so i can respawn with my squad in a good, safe location. Flexibility will be fine for any other suit, switching an assault to a commando, a scout to heavy, etc. The only suit/players to be penalized for being flexible are amarr and caldari logis to a large extent, to a lessre extent any other logi. The message to them is "you had better not change suits or else your bonus, isk, and SP investment = zero". As an omni swapping suits is a conscious choice, are going to that choice because the situation needs far heavily outweigh your current setup to deal with. Having Tank Problems? Swap to Forge give up anti infantry capabilities, speed, or stealth. Having ADS problems? Swap to Swarms or Forge and give up anti infantry capabilities. Having lots of infantry problems swap to HMG give up AV ability, mobility, and stealth. The point is you are generally always giving something up when you swap into a suit to be better at something else as no suit in this game can do everything as you clearly pointed out and never should they. Swapping suits has always been about deciding what to lose out on. If you think this is hurting you that bad maybe you should suggestion as bandwidth+ module. CPM 1 Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= Prototype Forge Gun=// Unlocked
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4888	Posted - 2014.11.18 18:50:00 - [103] - Quote Llast 326 wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: WouldnGÇÖt giving them the SAME Bandwidth as a suit with only 1 equipment slot already do that? Why make Bandwidth complicated for non-logi? Not really, we have more bandwidth than we actually need for one equipment. Giving scouts the same amount would make them slightly too free with equipment, at least in my opinion. Then have Bandwidth apply to all equipment, not just deployables. Have the Scout CPU/PG reduction bonus to fitting the Cloak also apply to Cloaking Device Bandwidth. Why run a cloak then, just double down on REGÇª That won't really be a positive thing judging by peoples vitriol for REs Most of the complaints about Scouts using Remote Explosives come from their use in combat, and in such situations Scouts usually only have 1 or 2 Remotes active at a time. So no matter which scenario you consider, it will not stop Scouts from using RE in that manner. Besides, my suggestion goes hand in hand with giving Scouts the same Bandwidth and a suit with only 1 equipment slot, so Scouts would not be able to place any more RE than an Assault suit. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Brush Master Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1330	Posted - 2014.11.18 18:53:00 - [104] - Quote My biggest concern with this proposal is the level of complexity that you are adding to an already complex system. We have CPU/PG which limits the level of equipment, you have how many you carry vs deployed and now a third bandwidth? I can see vets having a hard enough time figuring this out, not to mention you will need to make very clear visuals / displays on why something is happening. I think I would prefer a simpler approach to equipment spam. Making it a global limit per equipment type based on the last piece deployed. So you can only lay down one type of each equipment and not each type at each tier. That would massively hit the equipment spam problem and not require a new set of attributes to balance against. The one thing I do like is if you switch to a suit that no longer has that equipment, it should lose the link and auto-destruct. Also the increase in proxies is needed. Dust Veteran. June 2012 - ? True Logi. Flying DS from the start. @dustreports
Varoth Drac Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 367	Posted - 2014.11.18 18:54:00 - [105] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Only problem I have is the scout restrictions. Generally spawn in an advanced scout with cloak and drop 2 flux uplinks. Then on next spawn I spawn with an adv scout with remotes and cloak. Now, I am ok with a nerf where I can't run around covering loads of objectives with remotes with my uplinks still up. But I think it is too much of a nerf not being able to use remotes at all with a couple of uplinks running. Give scouts the same bandwidth as assaults and there will be no problems as far I'm concerned. Scouts shouldn't be the kings of deployables, I agree, but they are a central part of our battlefield role. 2 uplinks and a remote isn't spam or game breaking in my opinion. Meh, I personally disagree. I could understand having two low profile uplinks deployed behind enemy lines to give your team an advantage but having the ability to remote an objective (or god forbid start blowing up entire squads) on top of that, as well as all the inherent bonuses that a Scout gets to general combat as it is... Doesn't seem very fair. Personally, I think Scouts need to have more of a hard-chosen fitting scheme where they have to consider their options -before- spawning and I think having reduced equipment slots would be a good way of doing that. I advocated, back in 1.8, that Scouts have two equipment just to try it out. I even said, "They've been under powered for so long, let them be OP for a month". It's been over a year now, so I think it's time we try looking at other avenues to bring them back down in balance. I tend to agree, Scouts have been doing everything well for some time now. I have been doing this since chromasome. This has nothing to do with have two equipment slots. The fact is, deployable equipment is an important part of being a scout as it goes well with stealth and mobility. It is a major reason why the extra slot was given for the cloak. I'm not asking for more bandwidth than an assault. If you want to nerf scouts can we please focus on what is causing the problems rather than throwing the nerf bat around willy nilly. I've accepted the idea of being nerfed to only one RE plus links. I think that's enough.
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 7258	Posted - 2014.11.18 18:56:00 - [106] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: HMG's kill at the appropriate rate inside of their cone of death, Aeon. You run into a heavy, you're supposed to die. Period. You nerf the HMG, and it will either change this situation or it won't. Changing the situation is unacceptable, because then the HMG fails in its role as a "Wrong time wrong place mother f***er" style of weapon. If a person can run from an HMG, then the heavy has effectively lost the long-term fight. He can now be flanked and has no means of chasing the enemy. It is absolutely imperative the heavy has enough DPS to slaughter anyone who runs into him the first time it happens. The HMG is the hard counter to impatient planning and stupidity. It is not the hard counter to high ground, cover, long range attacks, or mass driver shelling. There is therefore no need to nerf it and doing so would destroy the heavy suit. And that's -exactly- the point. If a player can out-maneuver the heavy he's -supposed to die- and they have no problem with that because we ditched slower turn speeds (justifiably so) a long time ago. A Heavy can whip around just as fast as anyone else. And yes, the HMG is a counter to mass driver shelling -because they receive a splash damage reduction-. Cover doesn't matter within optimal range because they just can hold down the trigger and walk over to you. Long range is about the only one that makes sense in that list but sentinels also have damage resistance bonuses so only a handful of weapons really apply there. Let me ask you this; what is the ideal weapon a player is supposed to counter an HMG with in the short-to-mid range? Another HMG? Long-Term Roadmap This Player is Against Proto BPOs
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3901	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:01:00 - [107] - Quote John Psi wrote: Guys, Ratatti, let me explain what is happening now. In serious fights we have the following scenario: 1. At the beginning of battle HALF fighters planted in logi. 2. Equipment spam, die or refit to assaults/scouts/etc 3. No logi in a fight. Equipment Bandwidth did not save us from the problems, scenario would be: 1. At the beginning of battle ALL fighters planted with equipment fit variant. 2. Equipment spam, die or refit to simular Bandwidth suit (battle fit variant). 3. No logi in a fight. I understand that the current scenario is simple and effective. Just want to remind you that we wanna play not a Mario style game. This is why the logistics fits need a tone down in CPU/PG and a large buff in their role reduction to Equipment fittings costs. Thus no logistics fits with empty slots fit purely for combat and used only to keep their BW value high. Support logistics could use a meaningful buff, but "slayer logi" can stay dead. 0.02 ISK Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 7258	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:03:00 - [108] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: Logis vs other suits/ bandwidth: Be carefull of shoehorning players specced into logis into one single role. If i say deploy with my amarr logi and put down links, get killed, and my buddy's crying for backup. If i choose anything other than an amarr logi, I lose all of the equipment i spent a good deal of time and isk to deploy and put down, and now we look at at redeploying from the redline. Heaven forbid you switch out to a heavy, all the equipment brought dissapears. Equipment spam isn't cheap equippment being thrown down, its about lots of high tier equipment and suits being switched out at a supply depot. If you are playing a Heavy (either mando or sent) and swap to another suit you no longer have a heavy weapon or 2x light weapons, if you are playing a scout and swap to another suit you no longer have top flight mobility and eWar, if you are playing an assault and swap to a new frame you lose the bonus to racial weapons and weapons fittings. Now if you are playing a logi and you swap into another role so you are no longer playing a logi you no longer provide that support to your squad this appropriately will include equipment deployed beyond the BW of the new role you have chosen to play at that time. This is not shoehorning players into anything, this is applying an opportunity cost. LOL I could almost sense a begrudging feeling when you punched in 'lose the bonus to racial weapons and fittings'. S'like, "Ahhh hell, man, that's really not that big of a loss from switching to something else..." Long-Term Roadmap This Player is Against Proto BPOs
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3901	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:07:00 - [109] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: ps...I would like to see how this works with Logi suit / role updates that may be coming up. Bandwidth, equip slots, suit specs, and role/racial bonus all starts to connect in this discussion. SOONtm No, seriously I'm working on this actively right now (first day off in awhile) and hope to have something more meaningful in the near term. Taking into account both the eWar changes and the BW system has given me a bit to adapt too when collating current community feedback on the subject. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 1982	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:13:00 - [110] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear Players Based on a lot of feedback, both from CPM, Community and previous CCP designs, one of the things we are able to conjure up is the much wanted Equipment Bandwidth feature. * We want to fix Equipment spam to increase framerate * We want Quality over Quantity Equipment gameplay * We want a solid Logistics progression at using Equipment * We want Logistics to excel at using Equipment, and other roles less so * We want Equipment diversity Now, we want to get your feedback as early as possible, so chime in. But here are some clarifications of intent. Equipment Limit The main design is primarily based off of Drones in EVE. Every dropsuit has a built-in Equipment Controller, which has a certain Bandwidth Capacity (in MHz). That Controller Bandwidth is used to manage deployed Equipment through constant signaling. Each piece of deployed Equipment has a different Bandwidth Cost (or Usage). Note that all Equipment still has the same current limitations of GÇPdeployed per typeGÇ£. Obviously Logistics are made for this purpose, and some Logistics more than others. In the case of deployed Equipment Bandwidth exceeding the Players current Bandwidth, deployed Equipment self-destructs instantly, in the sequence it was deployed. In the attached spreadsheet, we show an example of such a scenario. This feature will allow proper Logistics to excel at their deployment role, while keeping Assaults & Commandos relatively useful and Scouts will be diminished in capability as they were never meant to be a king of deployables, the additional slot was added for the Cloak Field. Quality over Quantity We want players to use the best Equipment they have at their disposal. ThatGÇÖs why Bandwidth will not increase with item tiers. We also have the capability and intent to reduce Scan Profile with tiers, so Advanced and Complex gear is not as easy to scan. However, this also allows us to increase the carried amount, for rapid redeployment. Spawn first Nanohive and Drop Uplink at point A, redeploy to Objective B, spawn second Nanohive and Drop Uplink, and so on. Stay out of trouble and you wonGÇÖt need to switch or restock for quite some time. Progression Logistics will have the, by far, the highest Bandwidth, with Caldari and Amarr the highest. We may need to reword or change some of their role bonuses. Bandwith progression will follow the Equipment slot progression so a Logistics player can almost always use their full allotment of deployable Equipment. Logistics vs other Dropsuits One of the key aspects of this proposal is that all Equipment is tied to the active Dropsuit of the Player. Switch from a suit with a high Bandwidth to another suit with lower Bandwidth, and the signal is lost. This means that starting as a Logistics dropsuit, throw down as much cheap Equipment as possible, then switch into another Logistics dropsuit at a Supply Depot, repeat and then finally switch into another role, Sentinel, Scout, Assault or Commando, will not be possible anymore. Diversity We can now influence players to use more Proximity Mines for example, as Scan Profile will allow them to be hidden from low Precision Vehicle Players, as well as having a lower Bandwidth Cost, allowing more at the same time, without allowing more Uplinks and Nanohives. Extra damage wouldnGÇÖt hurt either. Now, to the numbers found in this spreadsheet. Please remember that these numbers are placeholders, and are definitely up for debate so form your arguments for changes into clear and concise statements. Please read the Example as well, it should explain the whole design clearly. Again, your feedback and input is appreciated. aweful idea.. it only works for drones because they are simple and 1 role..attack.. adding bandwidth to Dust/equipment creates more work for die hard logistics players.. as it makes us have to Micro-manage even more then we already have to!.. [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 1 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7

Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 7258	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:13:00 - [111] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: ps...I would like to see how this works with Logi suit / role updates that may be coming up. Bandwidth, equip slots, suit specs, and role/racial bonus all starts to connect in this discussion. SOONtm No, seriously I'm working on this actively right now (first day off in awhile) and hope to have something more meaningful in the near term. Taking into account both the eWar changes and the BW system has given me a bit to adapt too when collating current community feedback on the subject. Shame we don't have someone so adamant about Assaults and Commandos x3 Long-Term Roadmap This Player is Against Proto BPOs
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2189	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:14:00 - [112] - Quote I am against the idea of bandwidth. Not only does it limit what suits I can use, but it hurts Cal and Amarr logos harder since they focus on deployables. Why not just decrease uplink spawn count and increase amount carried? This means you can spam them as long as you are constantly deploying them since they'll run out much faster. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Lonewolf Heavy Chaotic Company 143	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:15:00 - [113] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: HMG's kill at the appropriate rate inside of their cone of death, Aeon. You run into a heavy, you're supposed to die. Period. You nerf the HMG, and it will either change this situation or it won't. Changing the situation is unacceptable, because then the HMG fails in its role as a "Wrong time wrong place mother f***er" style of weapon. If a person can run from an HMG, then the heavy has effectively lost the long-term fight. He can now be flanked and has no means of chasing the enemy. It is absolutely imperative the heavy has enough DPS to slaughter anyone who runs into him the first time it happens. The HMG is the hard counter to impatient planning and stupidity. It is not the hard counter to high ground, cover, long range attacks, or mass driver shelling. There is therefore no need to nerf it and doing so would destroy the heavy suit. And that's -exactly- the point. If a player can out-maneuver the heavy he's -supposed to die- and they have no problem with that because we ditched slower turn speeds (justifiably so) a long time ago. A Heavy can whip around just as fast as anyone else and they have enough defense to be able to react whilst getting shot at but not only that they can apply so much DPS that they can often kill the person shooting them before they go down. And yes, the HMG is a counter to mass driver shelling -because they receive a splash damage reduction-. Cover doesn't matter within optimal range because they just can hold down the trigger and walk over to you. Long range is about the only one that makes sense in that list but sentinels also have damage resistance bonuses so only a handful of weapons really apply there and it's entirely circumstantial. EVEN STILL, it's just the -one- heavy we're talking about, not a group. Let me ask you this; what is the ideal weapon a player is supposed to counter an HMG with in the short-to-mid range? Another HMG? Shotguns, combat rifles, MDs (If you are brave or skilled), most ARs, PCs, any assault variant of a weapon, maybe even ScRs if you are against Cal sentinels. I can honestly keep going on that. Almost any weapon works against a sentinel in short-to-mid range. Short range is NOT the same as CQC however. CQC is specific to tight corridors and limited space. in CQC you are highly limited. As a heavy, I've learned to avoid PCs, MDs, Shotguns, and Assault variants in CQC because I have no space to avoid the splash of the first 2 as well as the fact they have higher chance to hit me directly with the limited space (Which would be fatal for most heavies). As for shotguns and Assault variants (Including ARs), Those are weapons built for CQC and even though they may not always win the fight, they have a higher chance then basic variants. Sentinel/Commando
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 1982	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:17:00 - [114] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: John Psi wrote: Guys, Ratatti, let me explain what is happening now. In serious fights we have the following scenario: 1. At the beginning of battle HALF fighters planted in logi. 2. Equipment spam, die or refit to assaults/scouts/etc 3. No logi in a fight. Equipment Bandwidth did not save us from the problems, scenario would be: 1. At the beginning of battle ALL fighters planted with equipment fit variant. 2. Equipment spam, die or refit to simular Bandwidth suit (battle fit variant). 3. No logi in a fight. I understand that the current scenario is simple and effective. Just want to remind you that we wanna play not a Mario style game. This is why the logistics fits need a tone down in CPU/PG and a large buff in their role reduction to Equipment fittings costs. Thus no logistics fits with empty slots fit purely for combat and used only to keep their BW value high. Support logistics could use a meaningful buff, but "slayer logi" can stay dead. 0.02 ISK Cross no its not.. logi can hardly fit 3/5th proto equipment/moduals where scouts/sents/assaults can easly fit like 90% + proto what you would be doing is essentially nerfing logi EHP even further then it already is.. and as a min logi being the lowest ehp of them all having like 300+ ehp less then an assault and being stupidly slow because we fit ehp just leaves us to be cannon fodder for anyone adn everyone with MLT or higher gear.. and im sick of it. do you even logi? i doubt it. try being a logi for a year and just see your chosen roll receive nerf after nerf after proxy-nerf... and not recive a single godamned buff at all! [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 1 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 403	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:18:00 - [115] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Yes, you made a decision to sacrifice one advantage for another, or you can choose to not do that. That's kind of the point. For a scout yes, its which peice of quipment do i carry while i'm slaying. A scouts bonus isn't tied to equippment save a cloak. For any player running a logi, you have to sacrifice every other suit your specced into just to keep uplinks/nanohives up. The changes drastically restrict anybody running a logi to one suit. Any player not running deployables can switch between a scout, heavy, logi, assault, commando. Any amarr logi can only run amarr logi, and lose everything if he spawns anything other but an amarr logi. What has been taken into consideration to negate this? We can switch to a scout, heavy, log, assault and commando while giving up the strengths and weaknesses of our previous suit for the strengths and weaknesses of a new suit. Logis are no different, their strength being a lot of equipment, weakness being general combat ability. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Dubya Guy Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 19	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:21:00 - [116] - Quote I have given my opinions elsewhere that switching roles should have a cost. This encourages preparation, planning, specialization, and team coordination. I know not everyone shares this opinion. I can appreciate that, and all I can say is I think it would make the game a bit more GÇ£cerebralGÇ¥ and enjoyable for me. The evolving BW proposal has it that if you start out as a role that deploys equipment, and then switch to one that doesnGÇÖt, you lose some/all of that equipment. It has been argued that this will reduce role-switching. But largely this is a cost to the TEAM, not a cost to the individual, and in most cases, it will be an anonymous cost. If I switch out of logi gear for some sneaky knife-slaying, whoGÇÖs gonna know that my uplinks and hives disappeared because I made the switch versus being fluxed/expended? Am I going to spend the time to think back about WHICH hives and links are going to pop and whether those specific ones are too valuable for me to take a temporary detour into Anti-vehicle? The loss of a couple of pieces of equipment is a very small disincentive to role-switching, particularly when it is just as easy to switch right back and deploy them again. I am actually a fan of carefully placed uplinks in hard-to-find or eliminate places. Having links that go pop when you switch suits on respawn or supply-depot-switch, reduces the value of this tactic. Is equipment spamming a problem? I definitely think so. But I donGÇÖt think the suit-based shifting Bandwidth solution is the best solution because it also adds unreliability to a teamGÇÖs dropped equipment while not really discouraging role-switching. But...It seems like the conversation has already evolved beyond GÇ£ifGÇ¥ to GÇ£how muchGÇ¥. FPS = First Person Support. Kills win battles but it's kinda hard to kill if you're dead and out of ammo.
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 1984	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:23:00 - [117] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: I am against the idea of bandwidth. Not only does it limit what suits I can use, but it hurts Cal and Amarr logos harder since they focus on deployables. Why not just decrease uplink spawn count and increase amount carried? This means you can spam them as long as you are constantly deploying them since they'll run out much faster. when i run proto i have reptool and injector but also uplinks (max of 3 active) and hives (max of 3 active) but yes like you said.. for cal and amarr it would basically kill the caldari logi once and for all.. where as amarr logis only redemption is sidearm and highest ehp of the 4 races logi suits. proto cal logi would mostly be injector-hive-hive.. now the hives coudl be the varients whcihc get up to 4 active.. they need the ammo.. they need the triage.. with out all those hives on their suit they are done for.. for amarr.. injector uplinks uplinks.. its not the logi role or the equipments fault.. its the fault of stupid goddamned equipment spammers who spam equipment at supply depos and then switch to their chosen slayer suits.. (usually 50% scouts and 30% sentinels 15% assault 5% logi) BANDWIDTH LIMITS WILL KILL LOGISTICS! [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 1 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 1984	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:24:00 - [118] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: ps...I would like to see how this works with Logi suit / role updates that may be coming up. Bandwidth, equip slots, suit specs, and role/racial bonus all starts to connect in this discussion. SOONtm No, seriously I'm working on this actively right now (first day off in awhile) and hope to have something more meaningful in the near term. Taking into account both the eWar changes and the BW system has given me a bit to adapt too when collating current community feedback on the subject. Shame we don't have someone so adamant about Assaults and Commandos x3 assaults are in a good place.. commandos need some love.. scouts need a goddamned nerf bat to the face.. [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 1 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
Lonewolf Heavy Chaotic Company 143	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:24:00 - [119] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: ps...I would like to see how this works with Logi suit / role updates that may be coming up. Bandwidth, equip slots, suit specs, and role/racial bonus all starts to connect in this discussion. SOONtm No, seriously I'm working on this actively right now (first day off in awhile) and hope to have something more meaningful in the near term. Taking into account both the eWar changes and the BW system has given me a bit to adapt too when collating current community feedback on the subject. Shame we don't have someone so adamant about Assaults and Commandos x3 It honestly shouldn't be a problem for commandos. Most commandos I see use handheld tools (e.g. Active scanners, repair tools, etc.) or only drop 1 or 2 different types of equipment. The only problem a commando will have is if they bounce between their Sentinels and Commandos (If they are dual Spec'ed like me). Personally, I won't have any problems with the BW because I don't really bounce much between my Commandos and Sentinels in a match. Most of the time I'll stay as either one or the other and the only equipment I deploy is limited to nanohives. Also seeing Commandos will have a decent BW and only have 1 equipment slot, as long as you aren't deploying higher level hives or uplinks on a basic commando you should be fine. Can't really comment on assaults, I've never really gone in depth with one. Sentinel/Commando
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4891	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:27:00 - [120] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Can the Sentinel be given the same band width as an Assault, even though the Sentinel does not have an equipment slot? In Pub matches were no one is dropping Uplinks, I am sometimes forced to switch to another fit to place some uplinks. Once that is done I spawn in again in my preferred Sentinel fit after dying or finding a Supply Depot. If the Sentinel has no bandwidth I will be stuck playing a suit that has bandwidth in these situations, because my team needs an uplink or they will be red-lined. With respect Fox being suck playing a suit with bandwidth if you want to have equipment deployed at any given level is exactly the point. There has been a lot of talk about a nerf to heavies, hmgs, or both, because of "heavy spam". However it is the current game and map meta not the class balance which feeds this proliferation of heavies. The Sentinel frame has zero equipment slots using depot/spawn swap as is currently possible gets around one of the fundamental drawbacks built into the frame and adds to the excessive proliferation of Sentinels on the field because if you can provide your own deployable support, gain scout level eWar from a friendly scout on the field, and use a LAV or DS for mobility the question effectively becomes why not use a Sentinel? The context which creates that last question needs addressed both for diversity of game play and for the preservation of the Sentinel role itself. 0.02 ISK Cross Meaning in a public match where no one is placing Drop Uplinks I canGÇÖt in good contentious play a Sentinel. Are you going to take away my ability to hack objectives next? Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.

Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 1986	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:27:00 - [121] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: John Psi wrote: Guys, Ratatti, let me explain what is happening now. In serious fights we have the following scenario: 1. At the beginning of battle HALF fighters planted in logi. 2. Equipment spam, die or refit to assaults/scouts/etc 3. No logi in a fight. Equipment Bandwidth did not save us from the problems, scenario would be: 1. At the beginning of battle ALL fighters planted with equipment fit variant. 2. Equipment spam, die or refit to simular Bandwidth suit (battle fit variant). 3. No logi in a fight. I understand that the current scenario is simple and effective. Just want to remind you that we wanna play not a Mario style game. This is why the logistics fits need a tone down in CPU/PG and a large buff in their role reduction to Equipment fittings costs. Thus no logistics fits with empty slots fit purely for combat and used only to keep their BW value high. Support logistics could use a meaningful buff, but "slayer logi" can stay dead. 0.02 ISK Cross no logi need less cost for equipment and NO NERF TO FITTINGS.. cause maybe then we can actually fit more then 4 proto tank moduals as we eat too much pg and cpu just to carry equipment.. i chalenge you to try fit as much proto on a logi suit as you can on assault or scout.. it just dosnt happen.. hell i have to use advanced on some parts just to make everything fit. [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 1 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 1904	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:30:00 - [122] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: I have to vigorously disagree with this notion. The Logistics class is defined by it's ability to use equipment, both its suit stats and it's skill bonuses (racial and role) are devoted to this throttling the use of equipment for support players such that they are unable to employ all of their slots and skill buffs - if they have already made the sacrifices in fittings to have all of those present - is a further nerf to support play which is, bluntly, already in a sub-optimal state (especially the Cal and Amarr Logistics who would be hurt most severely by the alteration you propose). I also have to further disagree with your assessment of the compact hive, it is a 'one stop shop' for personal support and as such should not be an inexpensive bandwidth option, 3 for such a hive seems entirely reasonable within the context of the placeholder numbers I have seen. I understood the issue being, too much EQ spam and improving frame rates. Limiting the amount of EQ except on logistics suits doesn't fix the spam problem. It only makes it so other suits can't utilize EQ as well as logi suits. Thats fine, logi suits need a buff. But it won't fix the spam problem. If logi can still spam the entire breadth of their EQ arsenal, then we haven't fixed any frame rate issues. The current proposal would highlight the NEED for logi support as people won't be able to spam EQ at the start and maintain that level through most of the battle. But it won't improve frame rates if we keep the current allotment. You can only carry a single compact hive, which usually provides a single "refill". Its chief utility is to the lone wolf who does not have the option/luxury of support in the heat of battle. You could make it 4 BW and it wouldn't honestly matter that much in your "one stop shop scenario". You can only have one down anyway, and it doesn't last more than about 20 seconds on most occasions. The point I didn't fully illustrate however is that I don't think its fair to lose your nanohive on a std suit if you need to throw a mine as you are refilling. You wont be able to utilize remotes nor proxy very well aka: they have more that can be placed than the stack & good luck killing anything with less than 3 proxy (the amount you start with) I understand scouts are only supposed to have "a single equipment" but that's just not the case or norm. Its impossible to fit a cloak on a std scout, so they will be using two eq. My Youtube Biomassed Podcast
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4891	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:32:00 - [123] - Quote Nonoriri ko wrote: I would like to see more hive types than just health and ammo. A hive that scans its area(inside the bubble) and relays to team. Great for choke points or objectives. A hive that allows a certain number of suit changes, like a supply depot. Best for last, a hive that links to another hive, when players on your team click on it or step on it, they teleport to the other hive. Like a "press circle to confirm" button. I think that last one would be an Uplink variant, not a Hive. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4581	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:38:00 - [124] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: its not the logi role or the equipments fault.. its the fault of stupid goddamned equipment spammers who spam equipment at supply depos and then switch to their chosen slayer suits.. (usually 50% scouts and 30% sentinels 15% assault 5% logi) BANDWIDTH LIMITS WILL KILL LOGISTICS! Do you even realize how you just contradicted yourself? This bandwidth thing has exactly one purpose: Get rid of equipment that some spammed crapped out on the way to a supply depot to switch into their sentinel suit so they can get some free WP from uplinks while having 1200 HP and an HMG. If you stay in your logi suit, your equipment stays. Switch to a sentinel it goes away. How does limiting me to LESS equipment (with the idiotic hard cap of one EQ per type) than this proposal help me in my Amarr logi suit? (p.s. Just like Cross, I've been playing logi for much longer than one year so don't bother asking) (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Lonewolf Heavy Chaotic Company 144	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:39:00 - [125] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Can the Sentinel be given the same band width as an Assault, even though the Sentinel does not have an equipment slot? In Pub matches were no one is dropping Uplinks, I am sometimes forced to switch to another fit to place some uplinks. Once that is done I spawn in again in my preferred Sentinel fit after dying or finding a Supply Depot. If the Sentinel has no bandwidth I will be stuck playing a suit that has bandwidth in these situations, because my team needs an uplink or they will be red-lined. With respect Fox being suck playing a suit with bandwidth if you want to have equipment deployed at any given level is exactly the point. There has been a lot of talk about a nerf to heavies, hmgs, or both, because of "heavy spam". However it is the current game and map meta not the class balance which feeds this proliferation of heavies. The Sentinel frame has zero equipment slots using depot/spawn swap as is currently possible gets around one of the fundamental drawbacks built into the frame and adds to the excessive proliferation of Sentinels on the field because if you can provide your own deployable support, gain scout level eWar from a friendly scout on the field, and use a LAV or DS for mobility the question effectively becomes why not use a Sentinel? The context which creates that last question needs addressed both for diversity of game play and for the preservation of the Sentinel role itself. 0.02 ISK Cross Meaning in a public match where no one is placing Drop Uplinks I canGÇÖt in good contentious play a Sentinel. Are you going to take away my ability to hack objectives next? Don't go jumping the gun now Fox. Cross has a point on that exploit. I see this happening all the time in a battle, especially when I'm in my commando hunting logis so my buddy can go hunting in his scout safely. I'll start firing on the logi and they will drop hives behind a depot where they change to a heavy fit while still taking full advantage of their hives. All of the other things Cross is mentioning, like taking advantage of scout ewar thanks to friendlies and using vehicles for mobility, are intended features. However, being able to change suits and deploy equipment then change back into a heavy is an exploit to bypass the sentinel's weakness of having no equipment. Sentinel/Commando
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4892	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:40:00 - [126] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Can the Sentinel be given the same band width as an Assault, even though the Sentinel does not have an equipment slot? In Pub matches were no one is dropping Uplinks, I am sometimes forced to switch to another fit to place some uplinks. Once that is done I spawn in again in my preferred Sentinel fit after dying or finding a Supply Depot. If the Sentinel has no bandwidth I will be stuck playing a suit that has bandwidth in these situations, because my team needs an uplink or they will be red-lined. With respect Fox being suck playing a suit with bandwidth if you want to have equipment deployed at any given level is exactly the point. There has been a lot of talk about a nerf to heavies, hmgs, or both, because of "heavy spam". However it is the current game and map meta not the class balance which feeds this proliferation of heavies. The Sentinel frame has zero equipment slots using depot/spawn swap as is currently possible gets around one of the fundamental drawbacks built into the frame and adds to the excessive proliferation of Sentinels on the field because if you can provide your own deployable support, gain scout level eWar from a friendly scout on the field, and use a LAV or DS for mobility the question effectively becomes why not use a Sentinel? The context which creates that last question needs addressed both for diversity of game play and for the preservation of the Sentinel role itself. 0.02 ISK Cross On the contrary, Heavy proliferation started when they got an inadvertent buff in 1.8 when all weapons -besides- HMGs received a 10% damage nerf and Proficiency was changed. The HMG had a really good balance in 1.7 due to the implementation of proper spread and increased rate-of-fire (which sky rocketed it's DPS) but that balance was upset when it's DPS was left alone by comparison of it's competition. Scouts as well are remarkable counters toward Heavy spam because of their low profile and incredibly high alpha damage between Shotguns and Nova Knives. This, bearing in mind that shotguns haven't changed much, Scouts did. If HMGs received a DPS nerf to compensate for what the rest of us are dealing with, I think it'd establish a good balance. More-so then heat mitigation gameplay ever will. Talking 5%, 10% at most. It's not something we couldn't undo if it wound up being problematic either but experimenting with heat mitigation every hotfix clearly isn't warranting enough of an impact. Again, as previously stated elsewhere, the problem isn't so much the one heavy as ten heavies stacking on top of one another. That is something heat mitigation will never fix. In the run-up to 1.8 I stated that the HMG should get the same damage nerf that the other Automatic weapons got. I had forgotten about that, but having been reminded of the 1.8 automatic weapon nerfs, I totally agree that an equivalent small DPS nerf to the HMG is warranted. I still think the heat changes are a good thing. The Assault role should be easy, with bonuses that make the Infantry Rifles easier to use. Every other role, including HMG sentinel, should require some player skill to master. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4892	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:46:00 - [127] - Quote Just for clarification, this change is meant to: -Nerf equipment spam. -Nerf Scouts. -Nerf Sentinels. -Nerf/Buff Amarr/Caldari Logi? Did I miss anything? How many birds are we trying to hit with this stone? Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Lonewolf Heavy Chaotic Company 144	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:48:00 - [128] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Can the Sentinel be given the same band width as an Assault, even though the Sentinel does not have an equipment slot? In Pub matches were no one is dropping Uplinks, I am sometimes forced to switch to another fit to place some uplinks. Once that is done I spawn in again in my preferred Sentinel fit after dying or finding a Supply Depot. If the Sentinel has no bandwidth I will be stuck playing a suit that has bandwidth in these situations, because my team needs an uplink or they will be red-lined. With respect Fox being suck playing a suit with bandwidth if you want to have equipment deployed at any given level is exactly the point. There has been a lot of talk about a nerf to heavies, hmgs, or both, because of "heavy spam". However it is the current game and map meta not the class balance which feeds this proliferation of heavies. The Sentinel frame has zero equipment slots using depot/spawn swap as is currently possible gets around one of the fundamental drawbacks built into the frame and adds to the excessive proliferation of Sentinels on the field because if you can provide your own deployable support, gain scout level eWar from a friendly scout on the field, and use a LAV or DS for mobility the question effectively becomes why not use a Sentinel? The context which creates that last question needs addressed both for diversity of game play and for the preservation of the Sentinel role itself. 0.02 ISK Cross On the contrary, Heavy proliferation started when they got an inadvertent buff in 1.8 when all weapons -besides- HMGs received a 10% damage nerf and Proficiency was changed. The HMG had a really good balance in 1.7 due to the implementation of proper spread and increased rate-of-fire (which sky rocketed it's DPS) but that balance was upset when it's DPS was left alone by comparison of it's competition. Scouts as well are remarkable counters toward Heavy spam because of their low profile and incredibly high alpha damage between Shotguns and Nova Knives. This, bearing in mind that shotguns haven't changed much, Scouts did. If HMGs received a DPS nerf to compensate for what the rest of us are dealing with, I think it'd establish a good balance. More-so then heat mitigation gameplay ever will. Talking 5%, 10% at most. It's not something we couldn't undo if it wound up being problematic either but experimenting with heat mitigation every hotfix clearly isn't warranting enough of an impact. Again, as previously stated elsewhere, the problem isn't so much the one heavy as ten heavies stacking on top of one another. That is something heat mitigation will never fix. In the run-up to 1.8 I stated that the HMG should get the same damage nerf that the other Automatic weapons got. I had forgotten about that, but having been reminded of the 1.8 automatic weapon nerfs, I totally agree that an equivalent small DPS nerf to the HMG is warranted. I still think the heat changes are a good thing. The Assault role should be easy, with bonuses that make the Infantry Rifles easier to use. Every other role, including HMG sentinel, should require some player skill to master. I personally am nervous about another HMG damage nerf. Since closed beta I have seen the HMG go through so many changes, and I remember when the HMG went from being OP with sharpshooter allowing you to fire halfway across a map, to day one of uprising when we were nerfed so hard I almost gave up on being a heavy. A dev said something about wanting to avoid damage changes to the HMG to keep it as intended, which was why they did the Heat buildup change, to force more players to have more skill to use the HMG. Sentinel/Commando
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 7259	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:51:00 - [129] - Quote Lonewolf Heavy wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Can the Sentinel be given the same band width as an Assault, even though the Sentinel does not have an equipment slot? In Pub matches were no one is dropping Uplinks, I am sometimes forced to switch to another fit to place some uplinks. Once that is done I spawn in again in my preferred Sentinel fit after dying or finding a Supply Depot. If the Sentinel has no bandwidth I will be stuck playing a suit that has bandwidth in these situations, because my team needs an uplink or they will be red-lined. With respect Fox being suck playing a suit with bandwidth if you want to have equipment deployed at any given level is exactly the point. There has been a lot of talk about a nerf to heavies, hmgs, or both, because of "heavy spam". However it is the current game and map meta not the class balance which feeds this proliferation of heavies. The Sentinel frame has zero equipment slots using depot/spawn swap as is currently possible gets around one of the fundamental drawbacks built into the frame and adds to the excessive proliferation of Sentinels on the field because if you can provide your own deployable support, gain scout level eWar from a friendly scout on the field, and use a LAV or DS for mobility the question effectively becomes why not use a Sentinel? The context which creates that last question needs addressed both for diversity of game play and for the preservation of the Sentinel role itself. 0.02 ISK Cross On the contrary, Heavy proliferation started when they got an inadvertent buff in 1.8 when all weapons -besides- HMGs received a 10% damage nerf and Proficiency was changed. The HMG had a really good balance in 1.7 due to the implementation of proper spread and increased rate-of-fire (which sky rocketed it's DPS) but that balance was upset when it's DPS was left alone by comparison of it's competition. Scouts as well are remarkable counters toward Heavy spam because of their low profile and incredibly high alpha damage between Shotguns and Nova Knives. This, bearing in mind that shotguns haven't changed much, Scouts did. If HMGs received a DPS nerf to compensate for what the rest of us are dealing with, I think it'd establish a good balance. More-so then heat mitigation gameplay ever will. Talking 5%, 10% at most. It's not something we couldn't undo if it wound up being problematic either but experimenting with heat mitigation every hotfix clearly isn't warranting enough of an impact. Again, as previously stated elsewhere, the problem isn't so much the one heavy as ten heavies stacking on top of one another. That is something heat mitigation will never fix. In the run-up to 1.8 I stated that the HMG should get the same damage nerf that the other Automatic weapons got. I had forgotten about that, but having been reminded of the 1.8 automatic weapon nerfs, I totally agree that an equivalent small DPS nerf to the HMG is warranted. I still think the heat changes are a good thing. The Assault role should be easy, with bonuses that make the Infantry Rifles easier to use. Every other role, including HMG sentinel, should require some player skill to master. I personally am nervous about another HMG damage nerf. Since closed beta I have seen the HMG go through so many changes, and I remember when the HMG went from being OP with sharpshooter allowing you to fire halfway across a map, to day one of uprising when we were nerfed so hard I almost gave up on being a heavy. A dev said something about wanting to avoid damage changes to the HMG to keep it as intended, which was why they did the Heat buildup change, to force more players to have more skill to use the HMG. S'why we're only seeing one or two heavies in the Gallente Research Facility sockets x3 /sarcasm Long-Term Roadmap This Player is Against Proto BPOs
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4892	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:52:00 - [130] - Quote MrShooter01 wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Logistics vs other Dropsuits One of the key aspects of this proposal is that all Equipment is tied to the active Dropsuit of the Player. Switch from a suit with a high Bandwidth to another suit with lower Bandwidth, and the signal is lost. This means that starting as a Logistics dropsuit, throw down as much cheap Equipment as possible, then switch into another Logistics dropsuit at a Supply Depot, repeat and then finally switch into another role, Sentinel, Scout, Assault or Commando, will not be possible anymore. One thing I'd like to point out here is that currently, equipment bonuses seem to disappear when you die. This is most noticeable as the Amarr logi, if you try to respawn on your own links you will see the spawn timer is the base length of the drop uplink without the amarr logi bonus. This change might have the unintended effect of destroying some (all?) of the logi's equipment when they die, regardless of if they respawn in the same suit Just want to make sure you tested this to make sure suit bandwidth actually persists while respawning since the amarr logi bonus doesn't If that happens it would happen to every suit, not just the one with the Bandwidth bonus. So I am sure testing will catch it. MrShooter01 wrote: Now, about scouts: If I'm reading the spreadsheet right, I can only toss one RE at the standard tier? That kinda sucks for vehicle hunting It'd take a lot more work to blow a tank with one RE at a time! Could I talk you into say giving the standard scouts 6 bandwidth and reducing RE cost to 2, allowing a scout to place 3 remotes while still not being able to place more than one piece of other equipment? Or perhaps RE cost to 3 and ADV scout bandwidth to 9? Throw me an explosive bone here! A very good point! If a Scout can't deploy 3 Remote Explosives at the same time that is a major AV nerf! Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.

Ku Shala The Generals 1018	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:56:00 - [131] - Quote -1 poor idea this will kill an already dead role unless you are going to increase the base hp and give all logis a sidearm. I can barley afford to run advanced assaults in pubs right now and you want a ( cal logi) 70K suit with no sidearm with scout like base stats to bring expensive equipment that explodes when I change class? wow talk about taking what was once the best suit in the game and making it 100% usless. Once a proud logi thats lost millions of isk to save stupid BB's ......... now the only way to logi is to attach a repair tool to a heavys azz or spam equipment because the most expensive suit in the game has crap stat. before all roles were introduced the logisuit was abused because it had the most slots. R.I.P Logibruz if you dont press x I cannot save you on a side note couldnt you exploit this method to maker slayer logis again....LogiCK-0 equipment fit,Logi CK-0 slayer fit same bandwidth? *-¦a+ó a+ú-Æa+äla+ä (Caldari Specialist)* Caldari Loyalist *Assault -Logistics-Sentinal-Scout-Commando Allround CK-0
Syeven Reed T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 992	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:58:00 - [132] - Quote Great change, something thats has been needed for a long time. My one grief though is that AV is going to become increasingly hard. Reasoning follows, Many people, myself included carry remotes around to kill vehicles at least 2 for an LAV and 3 for a badly tanked tank. We won't be able to do this anymore as we are going to have to detonate after the first drop, alerting the tank before we can get off the other 2. I know we have proxies but there really not that good and I'm not in that much control of the situation when using them. I have a solution which may or may not be possible (I will leave this up to your brain). Could it be like this, Assuming I'm a scout (because I always am). We can place however many remotes we like but only retaining control over one. Meaning that chain reactions would work but not separate remotes placed in separate areas. TL;DR I don't want to loose the ability to place all remotes in a bunch together. SCAN ATTEMPT PREVENTED EvE - 21 Day Trial
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3903	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:59:00 - [133] - Quote Llast 326 wrote: I really think Proxies are going to need a serious looking at after this changeGÇª Pretty rare to see them used right now. When they are in competition with Uplinks and HivesGÇª they will become rare indeed. Agree they will need to finally get their long awaited balance pass so that they can be pulled from relative obscurity. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4894	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:01:00 - [134] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Only problem I have is the scout restrictions. Generally spawn in an advanced scout with cloak and drop 2 flux uplinks. Then on next spawn I spawn with an adv scout with remotes and cloak. Now, I am ok with a nerf where I can't run around covering loads of objectives with remotes with my uplinks still up. But I think it is too much of a nerf not being able to use remotes at all with a couple of uplinks running. Give scouts the same bandwidth as assaults and there will be no problems as far I'm concerned. Scouts shouldn't be the kings of deployables, I agree, but they are a central part of our battlefield role. 2 uplinks and a remote isn't spam or game breaking in my opinion. Meh, I personally disagree. I could understand having two low profile uplinks deployed behind enemy lines to give your team an advantage but having the ability to remote an objective (or god forbid start blowing up entire squads) on top of that, as well as all the inherent bonuses that a Scout gets to general combat as it is... Doesn't seem very fair. Personally, I think Scouts need to have more of a hard-chosen fitting scheme where they have to consider their options -before- spawning and I think having reduced equipment slots would be a good way of doing that. I advocated, back in 1.8, that Scouts have two equipment just to try it out. I even said, "They've been under powered for so long, let them be OP for a month". It's been over a year now, so I think it's time we try looking at other avenues to bring them back down in balance. I tend to agree, Scouts have been doing everything well for some time now. I have been doing this since chromosome. This has nothing to do with having two equipment slots or 1.8. The fact is, deployable equipment is an important part of being a scout as it goes well with stealth and mobility. It is a major reason why the extra slot was given for the cloak. I'm not asking for more bandwidth than an assault. If you want to nerf scouts can we please focus on what is causing the problems rather than throwing the nerf bat around willy nilly. I've accepted the idea of being nerfed to only one RE plus links. I think that's enough. I agree. Placing uplinks behind enemy lines I believe is one of the ScoutGÇÖs primary roles. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4977	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:03:00 - [135] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: HMG's kill at the appropriate rate inside of their cone of death, Aeon. You run into a heavy, you're supposed to die. Period. You nerf the HMG, and it will either change this situation or it won't. Changing the situation is unacceptable, because then the HMG fails in its role as a "Wrong time wrong place mother f***er" style of weapon. If a person can run from an HMG, then the heavy has effectively lost the long-term fight. He can now be flanked and has no means of chasing the enemy. It is absolutely imperative the heavy has enough DPS to slaughter anyone who runs into him the first time it happens. The HMG is the hard counter to impatient planning and stupidity. It is not the hard counter to high ground, cover, long range attacks, or mass driver shelling. There is therefore no need to nerf it and doing so would destroy the heavy suit. And that's -exactly- the point. If a player can out-maneuver the heavy he's -supposed to die- and they have no problem with that because we ditched slower turn speeds (justifiably so) a long time ago. A Heavy can whip around just as fast as anyone else and they have enough defense to be able to react whilst getting shot at but not only that they can apply so much DPS that they can often kill the person shooting them before they go down. And yes, the HMG is a counter to mass driver shelling -because they receive a splash damage reduction-. Cover doesn't matter within optimal range because they just can hold down the trigger and walk over to you. Long range is about the only one that makes sense in that list but sentinels also have damage resistance bonuses so only a handful of weapons really apply there and it's entirely circumstantial. EVEN STILL, it's just the -one- heavy we're talking about, not a group. Let me ask you this; what is the ideal weapon a player is supposed to counter an HMG with in the short-to-mid range? Another HMG? A heavy can survive longer against mass driver shelling. That doesn't make him a hard counter to it. He still can't actually do anything about it. That would require climbing out of his hole and getting into the mass driver guys face -- something he isn't capable of without exposing himself. The HMG has no counter at short to mid range apart from a scout applying stealth and going for an instant kill with NK or a breach shotgun to the head or something. And it shouldnt have a counter, either. Most of the HMG balance lies in the suit, not the weapon. If a lighter suit had a weapon that could counter such an overwhelming DPS force at that range in a straight up fight, then why would you deal with the drawbacks of the heavy suit? It's my fault FA exists. Direct your rage to me.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3903	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:07:00 - [136] - Quote Jadek Menaheim wrote: Cross Atu wrote: With respect Fox being suck playing a suit with bandwidth if you want to have equipment deployed at any given level is exactly the point. My concerns cross is the frustration factor of having bandwidth combined with the personal orbital suggestion Rattati gave. Again, this is a nerf to logis that have a role bonus tied to deployables. Amarr isn't bad in terms of fitting diversity with the additional sidearm, however that's not the case for the Caldari Logi. If anything I would suggest adding a side arm to caldari logis to help improve gameplay experience/variety for being locked into a role in order to maintain your equipment. If the BW changes were to take effect on the current baseline with no intent to buff the logi races or consider their frames/role then I would completely agree this could be a grave issue, let me reaffirm however that a rework of the logistics/support role is actively in process and BW as well as the proposed eWar changes etc are being considered in that effort. Please feel free to drop by the thread for that and contribute o7 See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Booby Tuesdays Tuesdays With Boobies 986	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:07:00 - [137] - Quote I'm liking what I see thus far. These numbers will have little effect on how I play my roles, I will just need to be more careful when switching to my AV fit to avoid losing a key uplink or remote from my Logi fit. As far as how I play my Logi, the only suit that will be effected is my Sever Uplink Spam fit. The only folks I see QQing so far seem to be equipment spammers. I need to run some more numbers, but so far so good. If this is the case, what is to stop a player from switching between all four Logi suits to spam gear? Is this limit suit based, or player based? If it is suit based, then I could still spam all the live long day if I wanted to. Question for Rattati, do we have evidence that limiting the spam will actually increase frame rate and overall game performance? No Shave November Applies To Your Face Only!!!
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3903	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:09:00 - [138] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: Second thought: can we have drones pleaseeeeeee, legit question is it possible to implement personal drones? Overall I like this idea, +1 Last I heard drones have a performance cost equal to that of players in game so they are not really a viable option (over all a higher baseline performance and beyond that potentially more players per team would both be higher priorities I believe) Maybe take away from installations or the vehicle cap if they're deployed and just give them stupidly high PG/CPU costs..? I think an anti-personnel drone in/near an objective is a lot more effective than an installation that gets blown up at the start of the match for free points. I'm speaking of in game performance costs to the engine/PS3 hardware load, not costs such as ISK or CPU/PG. As I understand it, currently drones as an in match asset are simply not very feasible within Dusts iteration of the UE3 engine. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4896	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:09:00 - [139] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: And that's -exactly- the point. If a player can out-maneuver the heavy he's -supposed to die- and they have no problem with that because we ditched slower turn speeds (justifiably so) a long time ago. A Heavy can whip around just as fast as anyone else and they have enough defense to be able to react whilst getting shot at but not only that they can apply so much DPS that they can often kill the person shooting them before they go down. Actually the HMG has a slower turn speed than any other weapon. It was the reduced turn speed on the suit that was removed. If a Sentinel switches from his HMG to his sidearm he can both turn and sprint faster. That being said, the turn speed on an HMG is only slightly slower than the turn speed on a Shotgun. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 404	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:10:00 - [140] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: With respect Fox being suck playing a suit with bandwidth if you want to have equipment deployed at any given level is exactly the point. I understand that this is the,entire point, i'm just explaining why i believe its a bad point to make. To me, its akin to either deleting every fit in my inventory to run unplinks and hives, or deleteing all my uplinks and hives suits to run the other fits in my inventory. Cross your a Logi, i invite you and everyone else who are so inclined to play test it in Faction Warefare. Bring out your equipment, and every time you want to change suit types, put down equipment , or respawn in different type go back and shoot each and every uplink and hive you put down. Great tactical value i'm sure. I can imagine the coms now "why don't we have uplinks at the point? Did you spawn in a heavy" "sorry dude they were rushing the point so i ju-" "Never mind! Jesus, okay regroup at the redline. Next time just stay in you amarr logi suit. One more thing" "what?" "dont drop nano hives again. Just come back in with a rep tool and an injector, don't bother with anything else;" Sounds like fun....at least i can always fall back on being pilot....oh wait. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.

Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4692	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:11:00 - [141] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: With respect Fox being suck playing a suit with bandwidth if you want to have equipment deployed at any given level is exactly the point. There has been a lot of talk about a nerf to heavies, hmgs, or both, because of "heavy spam". However it is the current game and map meta not the class balance which feeds this proliferation of heavies. The Sentinel frame has zero equipment slots using depot/spawn swap as is currently possible gets around one of the fundamental drawbacks built into the frame and adds to the excessive proliferation of Sentinels on the field because if you can provide your own deployable support, gain scout level eWar from a friendly scout on the field, and use a LAV or DS for mobility the question effectively becomes why not use a Sentinel? The context which creates that last question needs addressed both for diversity of game play and for the preservation of the Sentinel role itself. 0.02 ISK Cross On the contrary, Heavy proliferation started when they got an inadvertent buff in 1.8 when all weapons -besides- HMGs received a 10% damage nerf and Proficiency was changed. The HMG had a really good balance in 1.7 due to the implementation of proper spread and increased rate-of-fire (which sky rocketed it's DPS) but that balance was upset when it's DPS was left alone by comparison of it's competition. If HMGs received a DPS nerf to compensate for what the rest of us are dealing with, I think it'd establish a good balance. More-so then heat mitigation gameplay ever will. Talking 5%, 10% at most. It's not something we couldn't undo if it wound up being problematic either but experimenting with heat mitigation every hotfix clearly isn't warranting enough of an impact. Again, as previously stated elsewhere, the problem isn't so much the one heavy as ten heavies stacking on top of one another. That is something heat mitigation will never fix. THIS HMG's were much more balanced in 1.7 because of damage mods...proficiency...and the increased damage rifles did. We NEED to nerf the HMG back a bit. B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3906	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:19:00 - [142] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: ps...I would like to see how this works with Logi suit / role updates that may be coming up. Bandwidth, equip slots, suit specs, and role/racial bonus all starts to connect in this discussion. SOONtm No, seriously I'm working on this actively right now (first day off in awhile) and hope to have something more meaningful in the near term. Taking into account both the eWar changes and the BW system has given me a bit to adapt too when collating current community feedback on the subject. Shame we don't have someone so adamant about Assaults and Commandos x3 I'm trying to work on those too! But my time is somewhat finite and my knowledge of both of those roles (tho I do dabble) is more limited in scope. Relying heavily on the community to really step up on those threads (which has been happening esp for the commando) so that something valuable can be delivered. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3156	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:20:00 - [143] - Quote The bandwidth upgrade module should exist under Dropsuit Electronics skill. EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet".
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3906	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:21:00 - [144] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: I am against the idea of bandwidth. Not only does it limit what suits I can use, but it hurts Cal and Amarr logos harder since they focus on deployables. They will certainly need a rework, but they already do and it is in process so this will simply be another aspect to consider in that effort. Alena Ventrallis wrote: Why not just decrease uplink spawn count and increase amount carried? This means you can spam them as long as you are constantly deploying them since they'll run out much faster. Actually the CPM has been in favor of this idea for a long time and hopes to still see it in game one way or the other regardless of what happens with the BW system. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 7261	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:22:00 - [145] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: A heavy can survive longer against mass driver shelling. That doesn't make him a hard counter to it. He still can't actually do anything about it. That would require climbing out of his hole and getting into the mass driver guys face -- something he isn't capable of without exposing himself. The HMG has no counter at short to mid range apart from a scout applying stealth and going for an instant kill with NK or a breach shotgun to the head or something. And it shouldnt have a counter, either. Most of the HMG balance lies in the suit, not the weapon. If a lighter suit had a weapon that could counter such an overwhelming DPS force at that range in a straight up fight, then why would you deal with the drawbacks of the heavy suit? Ah yes, the age old "It shouldn't have a counter because = HMG". That logic got us into this mess in the first place. How do you counter five heavies chilling on an objective that can't be orbital'd? BY DEPLOYING FIVE HEAVIES YOURSELF! =D Seriously, this is -not- fun gameplay and it never was. I'll counter your logic with reverse psychology: If a lighter suit -can't- deal overwhelming DPS force at that range in a straight up fight, then why would you use anything OTHER than a heavy? Cross Atu wrote: I'm speaking of in game performance costs to the engine/PS3 hardware load, not costs such as ISK or CPU/PG. As I understand it, currently drones as an in match asset are simply not very feasible within Dusts iteration of the UE3 engine. That's what I was saying as well, though. I'm not talking about ISK or Fitting costs I'm talking about removing some of the more useless aspects of the game (certain installations within/near the redline) to free up performance but it doesn't really matter, I didn't expect that Drones would ever become a thing in Dust anyway. Long-Term Roadmap This Player is Against Proto BPOs
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4897	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:24:00 - [146] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: I am against the idea of bandwidth. Not only does it limit what suits I can use, but it hurts Cal and Amarr logos harder since they focus on deployables. Why not just decrease uplink spawn count and increase amount carried? This means you can spam them as long as you are constantly deploying them since they'll run out much faster. when i run proto i have reptool and injector but also uplinks (max of 3 active) and hives (max of 3 active) but yes like you said.. for cal and amarr it would basically kill the caldari logi once and for all.. where as amarr logis only redemption is sidearm and highest ehp of the 4 races logi suits. proto cal logi would mostly be injector-hive-hive.. now the hives coudl be the varients whcihc get up to 4 active.. they need the ammo.. they need the triage.. with out all those hives on their suit they are done for.. for amarr.. injector uplinks uplinks.. its not the logi role or the equipments fault.. its the fault of stupid goddamned equipment spammers who spam equipment at supply depos and then switch to their chosen slayer suits.. (usually 50% scouts and 30% sentinels 15% assault 5% logi) BANDWIDTH LIMITS WILL KILL LOGISTICS! I believe that the idea was to increase the amount carried and the amount deployable for higher tier equipment, and having Bandwidth control how many you can deploy. So Amarr Logi could go with Injector, Repair Tool, Uplink, and use all their Bandwidth deploying that one type of Uplink. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3906	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:31:00 - [147] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Cross Atu wrote: John Psi wrote: Guys, Ratatti, let me explain what is happening now. In serious fights we have the following scenario: 1. At the beginning of battle HALF fighters planted in logi. 2. Equipment spam, die or refit to assaults/scouts/etc 3. No logi in a fight. Equipment Bandwidth did not save us from the problems, scenario would be: 1. At the beginning of battle ALL fighters planted with equipment fit variant. 2. Equipment spam, die or refit to simular Bandwidth suit (battle fit variant). 3. No logi in a fight. I understand that the current scenario is simple and effective. Just want to remind you that we wanna play not a Mario style game. This is why the logistics fits need a tone down in CPU/PG and a large buff in their role reduction to Equipment fittings costs. Thus no logistics fits with empty slots fit purely for combat and used only to keep their BW value high. Support logistics could use a meaningful buff, but "slayer logi" can stay dead. 0.02 ISK Cross no its not.. logi can hardly fit 3/5th proto equipment/moduals where scouts/sents/assaults can easly fit like 90% + proto what you would be doing is essentially nerfing logi EHP even further then it already is.. and as a min logi being the lowest ehp of them all having like 300+ ehp less then an assault and being stupidly slow because we fit ehp just leaves us to be cannon fodder for anyone adn everyone with MLT or higher gear.. and im sick of it. do you even logi? i doubt it. try being a logi for a year and just see your chosen roll receive nerf after nerf after proxy-nerf... and not recive a single godamned buff at all! Do I even logi? I have been a logi as my main role since closed beta, check the posting history if you'd like. I was one of the guys who still used Repair Tools for my team when they were giving zero War Points. I have been a logi player for years now (oh wow, have I really played Dust for years, I may have an issue... lol) and I have max skills in every bit of equipment, support skill and logistics suit of every race so yes I know what it is like to run a logistics suit, I have around 20 fits for them saved right now Also, as I have stated repeatedly here and elsewhere the role needs an overall buff, I stand by that, just as I stand by the idea that these buffs come in a form which does not contribute to people using the logi frame as an "assault lite" by running it 'naked' of equipment. Should a logi be able to survive in battle? Of course because anyone who is always dead contributes nothing, but should there be pure combat fits being deployed via logi frames just so someone can exploit their way into FotM "greatness" Of course NOT. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4978	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:33:00 - [148] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: THIS HMG's were much more balanced in 1.7 because of damage mods...proficiency...and the increased damage rifles did. We NEED to nerf the HMG back a bit. No, we dont. If they did any less they would be pointless. Aeon Amadi wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: A heavy can survive longer against mass driver shelling. That doesn't make him a hard counter to it. He still can't actually do anything about it. That would require climbing out of his hole and getting into the mass driver guys face -- something he isn't capable of without exposing himself. The HMG has no counter at short to mid range apart from a scout applying stealth and going for an instant kill with NK or a breach shotgun to the head or something. And it shouldnt have a counter, either. Most of the HMG balance lies in the suit, not the weapon. If a lighter suit had a weapon that could counter such an overwhelming DPS force at that range in a straight up fight, then why would you deal with the drawbacks of the heavy suit? Ah yes, the age old "It shouldn't have a counter because = HMG". That logic got us into this mess in the first place. How do you counter five heavies chilling on an objective that can't be orbital'd? BY DEPLOYING FIVE HEAVIES YOURSELF! =D Seriously, this is -not- fun gameplay and it never was. I'll counter your logic with reverse psychology: If a lighter suit -can't- deal overwhelming DPS force at that range in a straight up fight, then why would you use anything OTHER than a heavy? Cross Atu wrote: I'm speaking of in game performance costs to the engine/PS3 hardware load, not costs such as ISK or CPU/PG. As I understand it, currently drones as an in match asset are simply not very feasible within Dusts iteration of the UE3 engine. That's what I was saying as well, though. I'm not talking about ISK or Fitting costs I'm talking about removing some of the more useless aspects of the game (certain installations within/near the redline) to free up performance but it doesn't really matter, I didn't expect that Drones would ever become a thing in Dust anyway. I don't consider what we're in to be a mess. HMG's are doing exactly what they need to be doing. They have weaknesses which are not based around specific weaponry. Types of cover render them worthless (plated guard rails for example). High ground renders them useless. Distance renders them useless. Surprise attacks with high alpha weaponry renders them useless. There are a lot of ways to counter the HMG that are not based around weaponry rock-paper-scissors. Thats low level thinking and bad game design. It's my fault FA exists. Direct your rage to me.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2191	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:34:00 - [149] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: I am against the idea of bandwidth. Not only does it limit what suits I can use, but it hurts Cal and Amarr logos harder since they focus on deployables. They will certainly need a rework, but they already do and it is in process so this will simply be another aspect to consider in that effort. Alena Ventrallis wrote: Why not just decrease uplink spawn count and increase amount carried? This means you can spam them as long as you are constantly deploying them since they'll run out much faster. Actually the CPM has been in favor of this idea for a long time and hopes to still see it in game one way or the other regardless of what happens with the BW system. Here's an idea. Suppose we have a bandwidth of 10. Each uplink and nanohive costs 1 bandwidth. I can carry buttons of each. Why can't I pick and choose how to deploy my equipment? I can do 10 hives, or 10 links. Or 5 hives and 5 links. Or 7 hives and 3 links. Or 4 hives and 6 links. So instead of a hard cap on uplinks and a separate hard cap on hives, let bandwidth be the ONLY hard cap, and we as logis decide how we fill up that bandwidth. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
shaman oga The Dunwich Horror 3228	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:38:00 - [150] - Quote Another thing i would like, even if heavies do not have equipments they should have a bandwidth of 4 on all tiers. Maybe consider giving triage hives more bandwidth like 5 instead of 4, drop a hive for some ammo is more than legit, punish this behaviour would be too much imo.

Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4979	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:40:00 - [151] - Quote Aeon, a lighter suit can use its mobility and radar superiority to achieve the correct geographical or position based advantage required to beat a heavy. The reality is that most people in lighter suits do not. They want to run and gun, oblivious to their surroundings and twitch shoot their way to the top of the killboard like a 13 year old on redbull. Heavies stop them from doing that, and there are a lot of people with the mentality that it should be both allowed, and promoted. It rewards physical reflexes more than the use of human intelligence. I do not find that to be good gameplay. You clearly do. What more can be said? It's my fault FA exists. Direct your rage to me.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3906	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:55:00 - [152] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Can the Sentinel be given the same band width as an Assault, even though the Sentinel does not have an equipment slot? In Pub matches were no one is dropping Uplinks, I am sometimes forced to switch to another fit to place some uplinks. Once that is done I spawn in again in my preferred Sentinel fit after dying or finding a Supply Depot. If the Sentinel has no bandwidth I will be stuck playing a suit that has bandwidth in these situations, because my team needs an uplink or they will be red-lined. With respect Fox being suck playing a suit with bandwidth if you want to have equipment deployed at any given level is exactly the point. There has been a lot of talk about a nerf to heavies, hmgs, or both, because of "heavy spam". However it is the current game and map meta not the class balance which feeds this proliferation of heavies. The Sentinel frame has zero equipment slots using depot/spawn swap as is currently possible gets around one of the fundamental drawbacks built into the frame and adds to the excessive proliferation of Sentinels on the field because if you can provide your own deployable support, gain scout level eWar from a friendly scout on the field, and use a LAV or DS for mobility the question effectively becomes why not use a Sentinel? The context which creates that last question needs addressed both for diversity of game play and for the preservation of the Sentinel role itself. 0.02 ISK Cross Meaning in a public match where no one is placing Drop Uplinks I canGÇÖt in good contentious play a Sentinel. Are you going to take away my ability to hack objectives next? Honestly that's a false corollary, hacking is not a role just as the ability to kill at all is not a role. One cannot balance a team game around always providing for solo player utility within a totally disorganized team. A meaningful role cannot be based on something everyone in every fit can do. If every fit had 4 equip slots, an heavy weapon, 2x LW, a racial LW buff and eWar to the gills there would be no diversity, no choice, no specialization. These changes do not in any way take away your ability to do more than one thing in a match, they just reduce your ability to do more than one thing at the same time. So a proper corollary would be taking away your ability to hack while shooting red dots at the same time and if that were in question - rather than the current baseline - yes I would support that as a change also. There are many metrics showing a trend towards over proliferation of heavy use and thus cries for a nerf are steadily increasing, I for one would much rather see heavies not be able to 'self logi' than see their role as point defense crippled. And I say this as someone who as proto in all four Sentinel suits. This will meaningfully effect how I play the game at present, especially those days when I'm running solo, but that challenge for me does not mean it's a bad change for the health of the game. 0.02 ISK Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Funkmaster Whale Whale Pod 2495	Posted - 2014.11.18 21:00:00 - [153] - Quote Great idea. Shame it took so long to finally balance equipment spam. Follow me on Twitch.tv!
IZI doro Terminal Courtesy Proficiency V. 6	Posted - 2014.11.18 21:14:00 - [154] - Quote My simplified understanding on the proposed "Equipment Bandwidth" premise: Limit equipment deployment to a "per character" instead of "per suit" game model. (effectively mitigating equipment spam) Increase battlefield impact of specialized logistics suits Decrease battlefield impact of "non-logistics" suits My feedback: BW Costs should have odd numbered costs (3/5 progression) BW Capacities should remain even, but only Medium Suits (Basic, Assault, and Logistics) receive a significant* bandwidth progression BW Skill and modules should be included to offer "non-logistic" suits deployment flexibility. (Dropsuit Core Upgrades > Dropsuit Engineering > Bandwidth Boosting; +1 BW per skill level; 2/3/4 BW per module) ________________ BW Cost example:* Proximity Mines: 3 BW Remote Mines: 5 BW Drop Uplinks: 5 BW Nanohives: 5 BW ________________ BW Capacities: Logistics: 16/24/32 (original) ; 21/29/37 ("boosted") Basic/Assault: 8/12/16 (original) ; 13/17/21 ("boosted") Scouts: 6/8/10 (new) ; 11/13/15 (new + "boosted") Commandos: 4/6/8 (new) ; 9/11/13 (new + "boosted") Sentinels: 0/0/0 (original) ; 5/5/5 ("boosted") ________________ In theory, medium suits share similiar hardware capacities, just different software, modules and protocol applications. The logistics suit will still be the main avenue of battlefield support, but by incorporating the "Bandwidth Booster" skill, there exists the ability to "maintain" a portion of that support. If one wants to swap out suits, one can, but at the cost of logistical support. Choose to go sentinel, kiss your gear goodbye. Choose to go assault, kiss those uplinks from earlier in the game goodbye. Choose to go scout, do you want uplinks or do you need to be cloaked? If you want to cloak, then your focus shifted from logistics to something else. ________________ Alternative:Team Bandwidth Set the MCC to have a "Field Asset Controller" that automatically monitors and manages the deployment of assets, much like RDV requests for vehicles. Every battle is a battle of attrition for me. 100hp in 5 seconds helps though
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 451	Posted - 2014.11.18 21:26:00 - [155] - Quote Excellent news +1 A few Points: UI: I agree with Cat Merc and everybody else in this thread that we need to have a clear and functional way of tracking current BW usage. Both in game and switching suites. Switching Suites: I would also like to have a short (30-60sec) timespan before the equipment is destroyed when spawning in / switching suites. This will enable players to spawn on their own uplinks (once), even if they spawn in a lower BW suite. It would also allow you to quickly correct a mistake when switching to the incorrect suite at a supply depot. The UI should reflect this "overloading" and warn of impending destruction. Skills: I would also link available BW to the logistics skill instead of STD, ADV and PRO suites. The suites themselves should have a standard value based on frame, regardless if they are Standard or Proto. Apart from the Dropsuite logistic skill, a new skill can be created under "Engineering" (which is feeling very lonely compared to Electronics), called "Bandwidth Modulation" (or something), which can increase the available BW for all suites and frames, including of course Logistics. This will have several benefits: - Level 2 and 4 of Logistic class will progress your Logistic role further, even if you can't fit Proto yet. - Since no other suite apart from Logistics increases Equipment slots per tier, there is no logic in increasing BW per tier for those suites. - More skills to dump SP in. - It will allow a support minded players (with "Bandwidth Modulation" 5) to not kill of all their equipment even if they choose to spawn in a BPO, Basic suite or even a Sentinel. I am not advocating that a Scout can take a Logistic role full time since the base value for Light frames should be low (as you suggest). Even at max skill, other suites should not match a level 1 Logistic player without any points in "Bandwidth Modulation".
Benjamin Ciscko Fatal Absolution 3477	Posted - 2014.11.18 21:35:00 - [156] - Quote How do you expect to have quality uplinks if they are quick deploy? They should be low profile, quick spawning, high hp with intensive CPU and PG costs as well as spam limitations To limit equipment spam: All equipment of a certain type will "pop" the original one after 5 (The number is debatable) If 2 of the same equipment are in the same 5?, 10? meter radius a 3rd cannot be deployed Fatal Absolution Director
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 1994	Posted - 2014.11.18 21:39:00 - [157] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear Players Based on a lot of feedback, both from CPM, Community and previous CCP designs, one of the things we are able to conjure up is the much wanted Equipment Bandwidth feature. * We want to fix Equipment spam to increase framerate * We want Quality over Quantity Equipment gameplay * We want a solid Logistics progression at using Equipment * We want Logistics to excel at using Equipment, and other roles less so * We want Equipment diversity Now, we want to get your feedback as early as possible, so chime in. But here are some clarifications of intent. Equipment Limit The main design is primarily based off of Drones in EVE. Every dropsuit has a built-in Equipment Controller, which has a certain Bandwidth Capacity (in MHz). That Controller Bandwidth is used to manage deployed Equipment through constant signaling. Each piece of deployed Equipment has a different Bandwidth Cost (or Usage). Note that all Equipment still has the same current limitations of GÇPdeployed per typeGÇ£. Obviously Logistics are made for this purpose, and some Logistics more than others. In the case of deployed Equipment Bandwidth exceeding the Players current Bandwidth, deployed Equipment self-destructs instantly, in the sequence it was deployed. In the attached spreadsheet, we show an example of such a scenario. This feature will allow proper Logistics to excel at their deployment role, while keeping Assaults & Commandos relatively useful and Scouts will be diminished in capability as they were never meant to be a king of deployables, the additional slot was added for the Cloak Field. Quality over Quantity We want players to use the best Equipment they have at their disposal. ThatGÇÖs why Bandwidth will not increase with item tiers. We also have the capability and intent to reduce Scan Profile with tiers, so Advanced and Complex gear is not as easy to scan. However, this also allows us to increase the carried amount, for rapid redeployment. Spawn first Nanohive and Drop Uplink at point A, redeploy to Objective B, spawn second Nanohive and Drop Uplink, and so on. Stay out of trouble and you wonGÇÖt need to switch or restock for quite some time. Progression Logistics will have the, by far, the highest Bandwidth, with Caldari and Amarr the highest. We may need to reword or change some of their role bonuses. Bandwith progression will follow the Equipment slot progression so a Logistics player can almost always use their full allotment of deployable Equipment. Logistics vs other Dropsuits One of the key aspects of this proposal is that all Equipment is tied to the active Dropsuit of the Player. Switch from a suit with a high Bandwidth to another suit with lower Bandwidth, and the signal is lost. This means that starting as a Logistics dropsuit, throw down as much cheap Equipment as possible, then switch into another Logistics dropsuit at a Supply Depot, repeat and then finally switch into another role, Sentinel, Scout, Assault or Commando, will not be possible anymore. Diversity We can now influence players to use more Proximity Mines for example, as Scan Profile will allow them to be hidden from low Precision Vehicle Players, as well as having a lower Bandwidth Cost, allowing more at the same time, without allowing more Uplinks and Nanohives. Extra damage wouldnGÇÖt hurt either. Now, to the numbers found in this spreadsheet. Please remember that these numbers are placeholders, and are definitely up for debate so form your arguments for changes into clear and concise statements. Please read the Example as well, it should explain the whole design clearly. Again, your feedback and input is appreciated. aweful idea.. as a logi i already micro manage alot.. and sometimes i even have to flip to an AV role cause other scrubs are too slow and stupid to do so and i should not be penalized for doing this! how about this Rattatti.. dont even touch equipment yet.. but give the "new orbitals" a chance to see if they balance the problem out or not, got it?! [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 1 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4980	Posted - 2014.11.18 21:42:00 - [158] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Dear Players Based on a lot of feedback, both from CPM, Community and previous CCP designs, one of the things we are able to conjure up is the much wanted Equipment Bandwidth feature. * We want to fix Equipment spam to increase framerate * We want Quality over Quantity Equipment gameplay * We want a solid Logistics progression at using Equipment * We want Logistics to excel at using Equipment, and other roles less so * We want Equipment diversity Now, we want to get your feedback as early as possible, so chime in. But here are some clarifications of intent. Equipment Limit The main design is primarily based off of Drones in EVE. Every dropsuit has a built-in Equipment Controller, which has a certain Bandwidth Capacity (in MHz). That Controller Bandwidth is used to manage deployed Equipment through constant signaling. Each piece of deployed Equipment has a different Bandwidth Cost (or Usage). Note that all Equipment still has the same current limitations of GÇPdeployed per typeGÇ£. Obviously Logistics are made for this purpose, and some Logistics more than others. In the case of deployed Equipment Bandwidth exceeding the Players current Bandwidth, deployed Equipment self-destructs instantly, in the sequence it was deployed. In the attached spreadsheet, we show an example of such a scenario. This feature will allow proper Logistics to excel at their deployment role, while keeping Assaults & Commandos relatively useful and Scouts will be diminished in capability as they were never meant to be a king of deployables, the additional slot was added for the Cloak Field. Quality over Quantity We want players to use the best Equipment they have at their disposal. ThatGÇÖs why Bandwidth will not increase with item tiers. We also have the capability and intent to reduce Scan Profile with tiers, so Advanced and Complex gear is not as easy to scan. However, this also allows us to increase the carried amount, for rapid redeployment. Spawn first Nanohive and Drop Uplink at point A, redeploy to Objective B, spawn second Nanohive and Drop Uplink, and so on. Stay out of trouble and you wonGÇÖt need to switch or restock for quite some time. Progression Logistics will have the, by far, the highest Bandwidth, with Caldari and Amarr the highest. We may need to reword or change some of their role bonuses. Bandwith progression will follow the Equipment slot progression so a Logistics player can almost always use their full allotment of deployable Equipment. Logistics vs other Dropsuits One of the key aspects of this proposal is that all Equipment is tied to the active Dropsuit of the Player. Switch from a suit with a high Bandwidth to another suit with lower Bandwidth, and the signal is lost. This means that starting as a Logistics dropsuit, throw down as much cheap Equipment as possible, then switch into another Logistics dropsuit at a Supply Depot, repeat and then finally switch into another role, Sentinel, Scout, Assault or Commando, will not be possible anymore. Diversity We can now influence players to use more Proximity Mines for example, as Scan Profile will allow them to be hidden from low Precision Vehicle Players, as well as having a lower Bandwidth Cost, allowing more at the same time, without allowing more Uplinks and Nanohives. Extra damage wouldnGÇÖt hurt either. Now, to the numbers found in this spreadsheet. Please remember that these numbers are placeholders, and are definitely up for debate so form your arguments for changes into clear and concise statements. Please read the Example as well, it should explain the whole design clearly. Again, your feedback and input is appreciated. aweful idea.. as a logi i already micro manage alot.. and sometimes i even have to flip to an AV role cause other scrubs are too slow and stupid to do so and i should not be penalized for doing this! how about this Rattatti.. dont even touch equipment yet.. but give the "new orbitals" a chance to see if they balance the problem out or not, got it?! No. Stick to your job and quit trying to solve every problem at once. If your team is ass, then that's the end of it. It's my fault FA exists. Direct your rage to me.
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 1994	Posted - 2014.11.18 21:42:00 - [159] - Quote Regis Blackbird wrote: Excellent news +1 A few Points: UI: I agree with Cat Merc and everybody else in this thread that we need to have a clear and functional way of tracking current BW usage. Both in game and switching suites. Switching Suites: I would also like to have a short (30-60sec) timespan before the equipment is destroyed when spawning in / switching suites. This will enable players to spawn on their own uplinks (once), even if they spawn in a lower BW suite. It would also allow you to quickly correct a mistake when switching to the incorrect suite at a supply depot. The UI should reflect this "overloading" and warn of impending destruction. Skills: I would also link available BW to the logistics skill instead of STD, ADV and PRO suites. The suites themselves should have a standard value based on frame, regardless if they are Standard or Proto. Apart from the Dropsuite logistic skill, a new skill can be created under "Engineering" (which is feeling very lonely compared to Electronics), called "Bandwidth Modulation" (or something), which can increase the available BW for all suites and frames, including of course Logistics. This will have several benefits: - Level 2 and 4 of Logistic class will progress your Logistic role further, even if you can't fit Proto yet. - Since no other suite apart from Logistics increases Equipment slots per tier, there is no logic in increasing BW per tier for those suites. - More skills to dump SP in. - It will allow a support minded players (with "Bandwidth Modulation" 5) to not kill of all their equipment even if they choose to spawn in a BPO, Basic suite or even a Sentinel. I am not advocating that a Scout can take a Logistic role full time since the base value for Light frames should be low (as you suggest). Even at max skill, other suites should not match a level 1 Logistic player without any points in "Bandwidth Modulation". equipment bandwidth is a bad idea.. i as a logi will not be able to use a supply depo to switch to an AV role combat a target then switch back if all my equipment down to a certain level goes BOOM. it will be the final nail in the coffin for logi [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 1 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
Doshneil Antaro Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 295	Posted - 2014.11.18 21:43:00 - [160] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: HMG's kill at the appropriate rate inside of their cone of death, Aeon. You run into a heavy, you're supposed to die. Period. You nerf the HMG, and it will either change this situation or it won't. Changing the situation is unacceptable, because then the HMG fails in its role as a "Wrong time wrong place mother f***er" style of weapon. If a person can run from an HMG, then the heavy has effectively lost the long-term fight. He can now be flanked and has no means of chasing the enemy. It is absolutely imperative the heavy has enough DPS to slaughter anyone who runs into him the first time it happens. The HMG is the hard counter to impatient planning and stupidity. It is not the hard counter to high ground, cover, long range attacks, or mass driver shelling. There is therefore no need to nerf it and doing so would destroy the heavy suit. And that's -exactly- the point. If a player can out-maneuver the heavy he's -supposed to die- and they have no problem with that because we ditched slower turn speeds (justifiably so) a long time ago. A Heavy can whip around just as fast as anyone else and they have enough defense to be able to react whilst getting shot at but not only that they can apply so much DPS that they can often kill the person shooting them before they go down. And yes, the HMG is a counter to mass driver shelling -because they receive a splash damage reduction-. Cover doesn't matter within optimal range because they just can hold down the trigger and walk over to you. Long range is about the only one that makes sense in that list but sentinels also have damage resistance bonuses so only a handful of weapons really apply there and it's entirely circumstantial. EVEN STILL, it's just the -one- heavy we're talking about, not a group. Let me ask you this; what is the ideal weapon a player is supposed to counter an HMG with in the short-to-mid range? Another HMG? justnerf heavies resistances They have the high hp and do justifiable dps with the heavies limitations , just they don't receive enough damage at he same time to ever cause a heavy to ever feel fear. Sage /thread

Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 1994	Posted - 2014.11.18 21:47:00 - [161] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Apothecary Za'ki wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Dear Players Based on a lot of feedback, both from CPM, Community and previous CCP designs, one of the things we are able to conjure up is the much wanted Equipment Bandwidth feature. * We want to fix Equipment spam to increase framerate * We want Quality over Quantity Equipment gameplay * We want a solid Logistics progression at using Equipment * We want Logistics to excel at using Equipment, and other roles less so * We want Equipment diversity Now, we want to get your feedback as early as possible, so chime in. But here are some clarifications of intent. Equipment Limit The main design is primarily based off of Drones in EVE. Every dropsuit has a built-in Equipment Controller, which has a certain Bandwidth Capacity (in MHz). That Controller Bandwidth is used to manage deployed Equipment through constant signaling. Each piece of deployed Equipment has a different Bandwidth Cost (or Usage). Note that all Equipment still has the same current limitations of GÇPdeployed per typeGÇ£. Obviously Logistics are made for this purpose, and some Logistics more than others. In the case of deployed Equipment Bandwidth exceeding the Players current Bandwidth, deployed Equipment self-destructs instantly, in the sequence it was deployed. In the attached spreadsheet, we show an example of such a scenario. This feature will allow proper Logistics to excel at their deployment role, while keeping Assaults & Commandos relatively useful and Scouts will be diminished in capability as they were never meant to be a king of deployables, the additional slot was added for the Cloak Field. Quality over Quantity We want players to use the best Equipment they have at their disposal. ThatGÇÖs why Bandwidth will not increase with item tiers. We also have the capability and intent to reduce Scan Profile with tiers, so Advanced and Complex gear is not as easy to scan. However, this also allows us to increase the carried amount, for rapid redeployment. Spawn first Nanohive and Drop Uplink at point A, redeploy to Objective B, spawn second Nanohive and Drop Uplink, and so on. Stay out of trouble and you wonGÇÖt need to switch or restock for quite some time. Progression Logistics will have the, by far, the highest Bandwidth, with Caldari and Amarr the highest. We may need to reword or change some of their role bonuses. Bandwith progression will follow the Equipment slot progression so a Logistics player can almost always use their full allotment of deployable Equipment. Logistics vs other Dropsuits One of the key aspects of this proposal is that all Equipment is tied to the active Dropsuit of the Player. Switch from a suit with a high Bandwidth to another suit with lower Bandwidth, and the signal is lost. This means that starting as a Logistics dropsuit, throw down as much cheap Equipment as possible, then switch into another Logistics dropsuit at a Supply Depot, repeat and then finally switch into another role, Sentinel, Scout, Assault or Commando, will not be possible anymore. Diversity We can now influence players to use more Proximity Mines for example, as Scan Profile will allow them to be hidden from low Precision Vehicle Players, as well as having a lower Bandwidth Cost, allowing more at the same time, without allowing more Uplinks and Nanohives. Extra damage wouldnGÇÖt hurt either. Now, to the numbers found in this spreadsheet. Please remember that these numbers are placeholders, and are definitely up for debate so form your arguments for changes into clear and concise statements. Please read the Example as well, it should explain the whole design clearly. Again, your feedback and input is appreciated. aweful idea.. as a logi i already micro manage alot.. and sometimes i even have to flip to an AV role cause other scrubs are too slow and stupid to do so and i should not be penalized for doing this! how about this Rattatti.. dont even touch equipment yet.. but give the "new orbitals" a chance to see if they balance the problem out or not, got it?! No. Stick to your job and quit trying to solve every problem at once. If your team is ass, then that's the end of it. trust such an indepth and informed rebutted form an elitist piece of filth from THAT corp/alliance... the supply depos are there for a reason.. if they introduce bandwidth then they need to remove suit changing from supply depos but this just puts even more pressure on logi anyway.. as for my team.. iv seen it in FW from members in decent corps too they are far too slow on the threat level present on the field. dust and eve are about PLAYING HOW WE WANT.. yet they are wanting to take away the ability to flip form your main role into secondary and back to main with out having to then re-drop all equipment? its obsurd.. it will only make equipment spam around supply depos worse! [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 1 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4981	Posted - 2014.11.18 21:50:00 - [162] - Quote You're trying to do every job at once. You deserve to fail spectacularly, and I'm happy that you will. It's my fault FA exists. Direct your rage to me.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3911	Posted - 2014.11.18 21:51:00 - [163] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: I'm liking what I see thus far. These numbers will have little effect on how I play my roles, I will just need to be more careful when switching to my AV fit to avoid losing a key uplink or remote from my Logi fit. As far as how I play my Logi, the only suit that will be effected is my Sever Uplink Spam fit. The only folks I see QQing so far seem to be equipment spammers. I need to run some more numbers, but so far so good. If this is the case, what is to stop a player from switching between all four Logi suits to spam gear? Is this limit suit based, or player based? If it is suit based, then I could still spam all the live long day if I wanted to. Question for Rattati, do we have evidence that limiting the spam will actually increase frame rate and overall game performance? It is a suit based maximum limit, so if you swap from one 24 BW proto logi to another 24 BW proto logi you will still only have a max BW total of 24, if you spawn anything less than a proto logi your max BW will drop and your deployed equipment will be removed accordingly. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4901	Posted - 2014.11.18 21:51:00 - [164] - Quote No Bandwidth for Sentinels: After thinking about this long and hard I have come to grudgingly accept this. If it reduces the number of casual Sentinels then that would be a good thing. However, in a match where non of the Blueberries are placing Uplinks, I am still not sure whether this means I can say GÇ£thatGÇÖs not my jobGÇ¥, or whether it will mean I will have to give up playing Sentinel for the remainder of the match? That is my ethical dilemma. Scouts having Crap Bandwidth: 1)If a Scout canGÇÖt place 3 Remote explosives, then that is a major nerf to AV. I am not OK with that. 2)I still believe that placing Uplinks behind enemy lines is as much a core part of the ScoutGÇÖs Role as hacking behind enemy lines is. Suggestion: Give Minmatar and Amarr Scouts more Bandwidth. The Caldair and Gallente Scouts can be the Anti Infantry Scouts, and the Minmatar and Amarr can be the Tactical/AV Scouts. Complicated system with each suit having a different Bandwidth: I suppose I am ok with this as long as the interface is well done and provides the information we need to make decisions. I donGÇÖt want to have to do complicated math every time I select a fit. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Vicious Minotaur 1352	Posted - 2014.11.18 21:54:00 - [165] - Quote Is there a reason to further the already massive disparity between Standard -> Prototype? They already have more fitting resources, customization, better HP/EWAR potential, etc. Now, (or soon) they will have BW advantages and as a result, even better WP-making potential due to equipment advantages (on top of the inherently better potential conferred by proto weapons/mods/suits). As if proto needed any more advantages. Can we at least get matchmaking so I don't have to deal with this awful disparity that hurts my ability to enjoy this game? Or tiericide? Something? Please? I am a minotaur.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1309	Posted - 2014.11.18 22:03:00 - [166] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear Players Based on a lot of feedback, both from CPM, Community and previous CCP designs, one of the things we are able to conjure up is the much wanted Equipment Bandwidth feature. * We want to fix Equipment spam to increase framerate * We want Quality over Quantity Equipment gameplay * We want a solid Logistics progression at using Equipment * We want Logistics to excel at using Equipment, and other roles less so * We want Equipment diversity Now, we want to get your feedback as early as possible, so chime in. But here are some clarifications of intent. Equipment Limit The main design is primarily based off of Drones in EVE. Every dropsuit has a built-in Equipment Controller, which has a certain Bandwidth Capacity (in MHz). That Controller Bandwidth is used to manage deployed Equipment through constant signaling. Each piece of deployed Equipment has a different Bandwidth Cost (or Usage). Note that all Equipment still has the same current limitations of GÇPdeployed per typeGÇ£. Obviously Logistics are made for this purpose, and some Logistics more than others. In the case of deployed Equipment Bandwidth exceeding the Players current Bandwidth, deployed Equipment self-destructs instantly, in the sequence it was deployed. In the attached spreadsheet, we show an example of such a scenario. This feature will allow proper Logistics to excel at their deployment role, while keeping Assaults & Commandos relatively useful and Scouts will be diminished in capability as they were never meant to be a king of deployables, the additional slot was added for the Cloak Field. Quality over Quantity We want players to use the best Equipment they have at their disposal. ThatGÇÖs why Bandwidth will not increase with item tiers. We also have the capability and intent to reduce Scan Profile with tiers, so Advanced and Complex gear is not as easy to scan. However, this also allows us to increase the carried amount, for rapid redeployment. Spawn first Nanohive and Drop Uplink at point A, redeploy to Objective B, spawn second Nanohive and Drop Uplink, and so on. Stay out of trouble and you wonGÇÖt need to switch or restock for quite some time. Progression Logistics will have the, by far, the highest Bandwidth, with Caldari and Amarr the highest. We may need to reword or change some of their role bonuses. Bandwith progression will follow the Equipment slot progression so a Logistics player can almost always use their full allotment of deployable Equipment. Logistics vs other Dropsuits One of the key aspects of this proposal is that all Equipment is tied to the active Dropsuit of the Player. Switch from a suit with a high Bandwidth to another suit with lower Bandwidth, and the signal is lost. This means that starting as a Logistics dropsuit, throw down as much cheap Equipment as possible, then switch into another Logistics dropsuit at a Supply Depot, repeat and then finally switch into another role, Sentinel, Scout, Assault or Commando, will not be possible anymore. Diversity We can now influence players to use more Proximity Mines for example, as Scan Profile will allow them to be hidden from low Precision Vehicle Players, as well as having a lower Bandwidth Cost, allowing more at the same time, without allowing more Uplinks and Nanohives. Extra damage wouldnGÇÖt hurt either. Now, to the numbers found in this spreadsheet. Please remember that these numbers are placeholders, and are definitely up for debate so form your arguments for changes into clear and concise statements. Please read the Example as well, it should explain the whole design clearly. Again, your feedback and input is appreciated. +1 looks good. As a pure logistics player this will have 0 negative effect on me. The equipment spammers however will try to find ways to get the BW on their suits buffed to keep equipment spam possible.(BW buff skill,BW buff module) These suggestions should obviously be ignored. 5 hives and 3 links are plenty. But,as for the underlined parts... Are you saying logistics will be getting a +1 deployables per level bonus? Or will it be an equipment bonus (on the equipment itself) instead? Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 453	Posted - 2014.11.18 22:18:00 - [167] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Regis Blackbird wrote: Excellent news +1 A few Points: UI: I agree with Cat Merc and everybody else in this thread that we need to have a clear and functional way of tracking current BW usage. Both in game and switching suites. Switching Suites: I would also like to have a short (30-60sec) timespan before the equipment is destroyed when spawning in / switching suites. This will enable players to spawn on their own uplinks (once), even if they spawn in a lower BW suite. It would also allow you to quickly correct a mistake when switching to the incorrect suite at a supply depot. The UI should reflect this "overloading" and warn of impending destruction. Skills: I would also link available BW to the logistics skill instead of STD, ADV and PRO suites. The suites themselves should have a standard value based on frame, regardless if they are Standard or Proto. Apart from the Dropsuite logistic skill, a new skill can be created under "Engineering" (which is feeling very lonely compared to Electronics), called "Bandwidth Modulation" (or something), which can increase the available BW for all suites and frames, including of course Logistics. This will have several benefits: - Level 2 and 4 of Logistic class will progress your Logistic role further, even if you can't fit Proto yet. - Since no other suite apart from Logistics increases Equipment slots per tier, there is no logic in increasing BW per tier for those suites. - More skills to dump SP in. - It will allow a support minded players (with "Bandwidth Modulation" 5) to not kill of all their equipment even if they choose to spawn in a BPO, Basic suite or even a Sentinel. I am not advocating that a Scout can take a Logistic role full time since the base value for Light frames should be low (as you suggest). Even at max skill, other suites should not match a level 1 Logistic player without any points in "Bandwidth Modulation". equipment bandwidth is a bad idea.. i as a logi will not be able to use a supply depo to switch to an AV role combat a target then switch back if all my equipment down to a certain level goes BOOM. it will be the final nail in the coffin for logi I disagree it will be the end of Logi. With a skill which is separate from frame tier, you will at least not be penalised if you choose to switch to a STD suite instead of PRO. I also think that the destroyed equipment should be based on tier instead of placement times (STD uplink is always destroyed before a PRO). The absolutely best option would be if we can somehow choose which equipment is destroyed and which survives within the "overload phase" (provided we are within available bandwidth), but that might get tricky UI wise and produce a lot of micromanaging. With that said, I think that the current Logistics bonuses need some rework, or other modifications to not hamper Amaar and Caldari too much.
RedPencil Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 125	Posted - 2014.11.18 22:23:00 - [168] - Quote I gonna miss my scout jihad jeep...... Since you are going to fix equip spam, why don't you add repair overheat to fix WP farm at the same time? Beware Paper cut M[;..;]M
PLAYSTTION GamersForChrist 336	Posted - 2014.11.18 22:26:00 - [169] - Quote At first i thought this would be bad, read it and its genius. Assaults can carry 1 nano hive and resupply themselves and logis can drop a bunch. But does this stop people from having 6 nano hives on 3 suits and placing 18 down? Gallente Assault-Caldari Logistics `- Open Beta Vet - 31mil sp - - Join the LFSquad chat -`
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3914	Posted - 2014.11.18 23:06:00 - [170] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Cross Atu wrote: With respect Fox being suck playing a suit with bandwidth if you want to have equipment deployed at any given level is exactly the point. I understand that this is the,entire point, i'm just explaining why i believe its a bad point to make. To me, its akin to either deleting every fit in my inventory to run unplinks and hives, or deleteing all my uplinks and hives suits to run the other fits in my inventory. Cross your a Logi, i invite you and everyone else who are so inclined to play test it in Faction Warefare. Bring out your equipment, and every time you want to change suit types, put down equipment , or respawn in different type go back and shoot each and every uplink and hive you put down. Great tactical value i'm sure. I can imagine the coms now "why don't we have uplinks at the point? Did you spawn in a heavy" "sorry dude they were rushing the point so i ju-" "Never mind! Jesus, okay regroup at the redline. Next time just stay in you amarr logi suit. One more thing" "what?" "dont drop nano hives again. Just come back in with a rep tool and an injector, don't bother with anything else;" Sounds like fun....at least i can always fall back on being pilot....oh wait. Well, a few things about that, first the direct method described is stacked rather than objective. In the game under a BW mechanic you would not need to take the time to destroy those deployed items nor would you be facing a team free of the same mechanical constraints you are operating under. Leaving that aside what you describe is frankly non-problematic, those players in as logi stay as logi and actually play the role as opposed to the current method of spawn once, deploy everything ditch the logi suit and play only heavy on that point defense throughout the match from then on, because really once you have already self logi'ed rep hives and uplinks why *wouldn't* you just play heavy on that point? And if the best way to run logi is often to not even be in logi suit for the majority of the match then what is the value/point of the suit/role? See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3916	Posted - 2014.11.18 23:15:00 - [171] - Quote Regis Blackbird wrote: With that said, I think that the current Logistics bonuses need some rework, or other modifications to not hamper Amaar and Caldari too much. That is being discussed, feel free to chime in. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Funkmaster Whale Whale Pod 2495	Posted - 2014.11.18 23:16:00 - [172] - Quote One thing that this will greatly diminish as well is rooftop camping. I've set up rooftop nests before for Forging by switching between suits and this will make it no longer possible. I'm totally fine with that. In fact, the more we get this game focused around gunplay and tactics and less spammy cheese nonsense the better. Follow me on Twitch.tv!
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 7264	Posted - 2014.11.18 23:17:00 - [173] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Aeon, a lighter suit can use its mobility and radar superiority to achieve the correct geographical or position based advantage required to beat a heavy. The reality is that most people in lighter suits do not. They want to run and gun, oblivious to their surroundings and twitch shoot their way to the top of the killboard like a 13 year old on redbull. Heavies stop them from doing that, and there are a lot of people with the mentality that it should be both allowed, and promoted. It rewards physical reflexes more than the use of human intelligence. I do not find that to be good gameplay. You clearly do. What more can be said? Every time you argue against something, be it heavies, tanks or whatever over-powered thing it is you use at the time, you always bring up the same thing: "People just don't want to do it". Really waters down anything you have to say. Long-Term Roadmap This Player is Against Proto BPOs
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3916	Posted - 2014.11.18 23:18:00 - [174] - Quote PLAYSTTION wrote: At first i thought this would be bad, read it and its genius. Assaults can carry 1 nano hive and resupply themselves and logis can drop a bunch. But does this stop people from having 6 nano hives on 3 suits and placing 18 down? Yes it does, the BW limitation is defined by the suit as a maximum value there for swapping suits will NOT increase your available BW unless you are moving from a suit with a low max value to a suit with a high max value, but even in that case the two values will not stack. For example someone like myself who has all four racial logis at max will not be able to get any more than 24 BW worth of equipment deployed in any context, the same amount as a player with a single proto logi, and both of us will lose some/all of that deployed equipment if we transition into a non-logi suit. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Booby Tuesdays Tuesdays With Boobies 989	Posted - 2014.11.18 23:22:00 - [175] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: I'm liking what I see thus far. These numbers will have little effect on how I play my roles, I will just need to be more careful when switching to my AV fit to avoid losing a key uplink or remote from my Logi fit. As far as how I play my Logi, the only suit that will be effected is my Sever Uplink Spam fit. The only folks I see QQing so far seem to be equipment spammers. I need to run some more numbers, but so far so good. If this is the case, what is to stop a player from switching between all four Logi suits to spam gear? Is this limit suit based, or player based? If it is suit based, then I could still spam all the live long day if I wanted to. Question for Rattati, do we have evidence that limiting the spam will actually increase frame rate and overall game performance? It is a suit based maximum limit, so if you swap from one 24 BW proto logi to another 24 BW proto logi you will still only have a max BW total of 24, if you spawn anything less than a proto logi your max BW will drop and your deployed equipment will be removed accordingly. I guess I'm still unclear as to how this works. If you are saying it is Dropsuit based, then it's bandwidth per dropsuit? As in, Spawn Amarr logi, spam uplinks, then spawn Cal Logi and spam hives because I have another 24 BW? This is how it all works now. Or is it bandwidth per person, no matter what race or dropsuit you spawn? As in I spawn Amarr Logi, spam uplinks, then spawn in Cal Logi and spam hives, but all my Amarr Logi uplinks pop. I'm thinking this is how it will work, which is awesome. No Shave November Applies To Your Face Only!!!
Kaeru Nayiri OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 186	Posted - 2014.11.18 23:27:00 - [176] - Quote Can we also make equipment hackable in the same update? Please ?? :3
Llast 326 An Arkhos 5461	Posted - 2014.11.18 23:28:00 - [177] - Quote Quick question That may have been addressed already: Where do the non role specific suits fit in the BW plan? MOAR Ladders
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2312	Posted - 2014.11.18 23:37:00 - [178] - Quote Firstly, +1 on this proposal, looks well thought out and it is a relief to see equipment spam finally addressed. Secondly, ARRRGHHHH!!!! Rattati you have too many balls in the air. I want to give this topic the long thinking, but...... Scout role is still unresolved. We have yet to see the effects of personal orbitals on equipment spam. We have yet to experience the reality of the proposed ewar system/equipment sig profile. Logi racial/role skills still need another pass. Logi native repair still unresolved. Logi ewar stats still unresolved. There are hints of module efficacy-based bonuses coming up in your ewar proposals - heavily pertinent to logis, no? Basic frames still need looking at - an equipment advantage has been proposed for the basics so pertinent itt also. Anything any of us propose in this thread without having numbers/experience with the above factors is boolshitting. I love to bs as much as the next merc, but we're trying to get good gamplay out of this so wingin' it prolly ain't the answer. Also we can see a lot of reasoning itt predicated on 'the scout is too good'....or 'heavy spam'. Absolutely the wrong way to design a system but all those unfinished systems and unresolved issues are increasingly affecting every conversation we have. If we keep theorycrafting based on mushy, half finished systems we might as well start philosophizing on religion or economics. Speaking in terms of very general gameplay, a few things stand out: Player Engagement Avoid hard limits on role restriction, allow peeps to play the game the way they want. Allow mercs to contribute to their teams as they see fit based on their assessment of strategic and tactical needs. Would accomplish this in two ways: Give heavies a minimum bandwidth(say 4 or 8) and allow modest bandwidth increases through a module. If a player judges that the correct decision for the team is to swap out their uplink scout for a heavy to defend of the initial point they can do so without depriving the team of the one or two uplinks they laid down on the way in. This allows the player to feel more engaged and connected to the welfare of the team. What does the gameplay gain by hard-restricting the contributions of anybody who swaps to heavy? I say it loses. Player Decisions and Consequences The BW limit is interesting gameplay. The complaints itt that logis won't be able to keep all their equipment deployed all the time if they swap to other frames is off the mark. It would result in trivial, meaningless decision-making. BW limits result in interesting decision making. A logi who deploys lots of high BW equipment and then who is forced by the flow of battle to switch to another suit won't loose all of their equipment, and the rule of thumb will be: deploy the important stuff(i.e. uplinks) first and don't deploy any more than you need too. Plan ahead in your deployment pattern so that if you need to swap out of logi, you still have a viable equipment slot/BW capacity on you scout or assault. Fitting Screen and UI Must be intuitive and interactive. This **** is getting complicated, even for seasoned old mercs. Must be paralyzing for new peeps. I'd say pure visual infographics, masterfully done, were a bare minimum requirement for accessibility and player engagement. PSN: RationalSpark
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3919	Posted - 2014.11.18 23:47:00 - [179] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: I'm liking what I see thus far. These numbers will have little effect on how I play my roles, I will just need to be more careful when switching to my AV fit to avoid losing a key uplink or remote from my Logi fit. As far as how I play my Logi, the only suit that will be effected is my Sever Uplink Spam fit. The only folks I see QQing so far seem to be equipment spammers. I need to run some more numbers, but so far so good. If this is the case, what is to stop a player from switching between all four Logi suits to spam gear? Is this limit suit based, or player based? If it is suit based, then I could still spam all the live long day if I wanted to. Question for Rattati, do we have evidence that limiting the spam will actually increase frame rate and overall game performance? It is a suit based maximum limit, so if you swap from one 24 BW proto logi to another 24 BW proto logi you will still only have a max BW total of 24, if you spawn anything less than a proto logi your max BW will drop and your deployed equipment will be removed accordingly. I guess I'm still unclear as to how this works. If you are saying it is Dropsuit based, then it's bandwidth per dropsuit? As in, Spawn Amarr logi, spam uplinks, then spawn Cal Logi and spam hives because I have another 24 BW? This is how it all works now. Or is it bandwidth per person, no matter what race or dropsuit you spawn? As in I spawn Amarr Logi, spam uplinks, then spawn in Cal Logi and spam hives, but all my Amarr Logi uplinks pop. I'm thinking this is how it will work, which is awesome. Let me see if I can make it more clear All proto logi will have - for example - 24 BW max. Any time you spawn in your max suit BW is checked against your BW used by currently deployed gear. If that gear exceeds the max BW of your suit you will lose gear, starting from the oldest, until you are no longer over your current max value. If you go from a Logi to a scout you lose BW so may lose deployed equipment. If you go from one Logi to another (at the same meta level) you maintain BW so do not lose deployed gear. ^However that maintained level is already consumed by the gear you have out (assuming you deployed to your max on the prior suit) and as such you cannot deploy any more with a depot swap or re-spawn; until/unless some of the current gear is destroyed. TL;DR So yes you are correct, if you deployed a full BW of uplinks as an Amarr you and then swapped to Cal and deployed a full BW worth of hives you would lose all the links. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4586	Posted - 2014.11.18 23:47:00 - [180] - Quote Realistically, for the people worried about scouts and proxies/RE's, can't we just make it so they are less BW? As in, one RE is nowhere near as useful as 1 uplink, so it should have less bandwidth. I see no reason why every single individual deployed item should have the same exact bandwidth. Same with compact nanohives, why not make them 1/2 the BW of a X-2, for example? Finally, as for those confused about the mechanic, I'll give an example. I'll make the math easy and not representative of what's in the spreadsheet. Scenario 1: Start battle in an Amarr Logi suit which has enough BW to drop 6 uplinks or hives. I drop 4 uplinks and 2 hives. I switch to a different logi suit for whatever reason. It has the same amount of BW, 6 pieces. I already have 6 out so if I drop another, the "oldest" one I have from before "pops". I don't make new BW out of thin air because I switched suits. The amount of equipment you can have out at any time is based on the suit you are in at that moment. Scenario 2: I'm a spam monkey. I start the match in a min logi suit, which has the BW for 6 uplinks. I drop them all and then hit the supply depot to move on to my l33t cloaked shotty scout. It has enough BW for 3 uplinks. oops! The first 3 uplinks I deployed 'pop'. My delicious slayer scout tears flow onto the forums where actual logis feed on them. (The godfather of tactical logistics)

Iron Toast Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 17	Posted - 2014.11.19 00:42:00 - [181] - Quote I propose that basic light frames and medium frames have a higher bandwidth than the assault and scout suits. The bandwidth should be similar to a std logi. New players often rely on equipment WP while they develop their role.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4985	Posted - 2014.11.19 00:52:00 - [182] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Aeon, a lighter suit can use its mobility and radar superiority to achieve the correct geographical or position based advantage required to beat a heavy. The reality is that most people in lighter suits do not. They want to run and gun, oblivious to their surroundings and twitch shoot their way to the top of the killboard like a 13 year old on redbull. Heavies stop them from doing that, and there are a lot of people with the mentality that it should be both allowed, and promoted. It rewards physical reflexes more than the use of human intelligence. I do not find that to be good gameplay. You clearly do. What more can be said? Every time you argue against something, be it heavies, tanks or whatever over-powered thing it is you use at the time, you always bring up the same thing: "People just don't want to do it". Really waters down anything you have to say. What you fail to realize is that 1. People are stupid, therefore I'm usually right. 2. I use everything, and quite often the stuff I advocate for is what I use the least. For example, I use Minmando, Galmando, Amarr Scout, Amarr Logi, Gal Sent, Amarr Sent, Amarr Assault. I use tanks and the occasional ADS. I am quite proficient in many playstyles and enjoy varying my time spent in the game, because bouncing between roles is quite literally the only thing keeping me interested in what is otherwise a mechanically poor shooter. So truthfully, I have no bias towards any role. I want to see them all do their job spectacularly. What it seems you want, on the other hand, is for everyone to play like an assault. If that's the case, I recommend Halo as a far better shooter. Everything is equal there. It's my fault FA exists. Direct your rage to me.
NextDark Knight Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 613	Posted - 2014.11.19 00:55:00 - [183] - Quote What benefit will it give the game overall to put in a bandwidth for equipment? You take the time and effort away from killing people to setup equipment so it can be removed from the game? I'm not sure I'm understanding how this helps Dust or is it just a change you want to make for the sack of changing something. Over 60+ Million SP and full proto in all Caldari Suits. Dust just won't die on PS3/Xbox. Dustin since 6/29/2012
SponkSponkSponk WarRavens Capital Punishment. 1101	Posted - 2014.11.19 00:57:00 - [184] - Quote I have read the spreadsheet, and these are my suggestions: 1. I strongly suggest that bandwidth stay the same between suit tiers. Proto suits already have extra slots and fitting for; they don't need another multiplicative buff to their usefulness. I suggest the BW be 24 Logi, 12 everything else. There needs to be some actual constraints, and I believe the Proto BW is too high at present. Even 12BW means a 2x uplinks (i.e. an entire proto uplink) + 1 nano hive at a time, which is a fair amount of utility for a non-logistics suit. 2. Prox mines should be 1BW because you need to deploy so many, and they need to persist so long before getting a kill. Remotes should be 2BW because you need to spam them, but their active lifetime is lower in general. All rep hives should be 5BW to further discourage spamming them (and because see below) 3. Sentinels should have 4BW; enough for one item of equipment to stay around, but not able to sit on their own pre-dropped rep hives. 4. Please consider tweaking max-active vs max-carried for equipment - an elegant solution would be to remove max-active entirely and relying on max-carried+BW as the limiter. Yes, there might be edge cases like standard uplinks, but I don't think that's really an issue considering how much better higher-tier eq is, compared to lower. Dust/Eve transfers
Ekrano Fergus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 65	Posted - 2014.11.19 01:05:00 - [185] - Quote Could the bandwidth be expressed in Mb instead of MHz. An amount of data makes a bit more sense than the frequency it would be transmitted on when discussing limits. /)_/) ( . .) C(") (")
NextDark Knight Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 613	Posted - 2014.11.19 01:07:00 - [186] - Quote BTW, Will the Cal Logi be able to move his hives around the field? After they are placed be able to pick them up and move them.. or get some kind of bonus to carried nanos. Sorry btw, this bandwith thing is a pretty crappy idea. Over 60+ Million SP and full proto in all Caldari Suits. Dust just won't die on PS3/Xbox. Dustin since 6/29/2012
Piercing Serenity PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies 700	Posted - 2014.11.19 01:09:00 - [187] - Quote I still have five more pages of this thread to get through, but I wanted to reiterate a point that I noticed was getting looked over multiple times. Many people have incorrectly assumed that this proposal will shoe-horn people who like to use equipment into Logistic roles under the following premise: "If I die and switch to a different suit, all of my equipment is destroyed. The only way I can use equipment is to deploy it as a Logi and hide from the battle. Thus, I am forced to either pick one suit class for a whole battle. Why CCP?!" According to my understanding of the system, the statement above is false. In actuality, ifI start the match as a Logi with 24Bw (For the sake of argument) and use up all of my bandwidth to put down equipment in the order - Flux Uplink Gauged Uplink Triage Nanohive Remote explosive - then when I switch suits, my equipment will be destroyed in reverse order until I reach my new suit's bandwidth. That is to say that I would still have an active Flux and Gauged uplink on the field, but no nanohive or remote explosive. Thus, no one is being "shoe-horned" into a role. If you plan on making dynamic changes to your loadout, then plan your equipment deployment carefully. For the sake of opening more options, I could agree with a module that increases a suits Bw (up to a maximum suit value of 24) so that players who wish to sacrifice something to keep their equipment alive in a different suit would also have recourse to do so Closed Beta Vet (E3 Build), Former PFBHz Best Corps Battled (Personally): Imperfects, TeamPlayers, Hellstorm
medomai grey WarRavens Capital Punishment. 1093	Posted - 2014.11.19 01:46:00 - [188] - Quote The proposed plan looks good. How to balance cloaks.
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 127	Posted - 2014.11.19 01:52:00 - [189] - Quote So, here's my initial feedback: General Bandwidth Thoughts I love it. It's awesome, and I really feel like this will do a lot to counteract the rampant equipment spam that happens in anywhere from 30-70% of pub/FW matches, with FW matches trending towards higher instances of equip spam, in my experience. That said, I do think that certain equipment options should cost less bandwidth- Compact nanos, for example, should cost very little bandwidth. Proxies, even under the likely mechanics proposed in Cross Atu's Logi thread, would probably still require a reduced bandwidth value. Stable variants of deployable equipment (mostly thinking of Stable links) should also have a reduced BW requirement, in addition to their reduced PG/CPU needs, but be penalized in other ways. Using Stable links as an example, having an increased spawn delay or a decreased number of links carried/spawns per link would be a could mechanic. Stable links also need a little work anyways, as the only drawback of most of the Stable variant equipment in general tends to mean that the lower-tier version is only a usable option if you're ISK-pinching. Bandwidth Tieri(ciding) Simply put, hell no to getting more BW at higher suit tiers. The disparity between proto-grade and basic level suits is already quite hefty when fully fit, even when considering identical SP investment into a given role, and this would simply widen the gap. Moreover, I'm sure that there's a few logis that would agree with me that this overly penalizes new players, and further makes lower-end, lower-cost logi rigs even more unattractive to use. I would also like to see the following: Scouts at a universal 8 or 12. My gut feeling is that we start low, at 8, and then iterate from there if necessary. This is especially important at the low end, because due to the mechanics of the Amarr Logi bonuses, it has been in my experience a highly common use case to start in a scout suit, drop some links in a good preliminary spot, and then either end up needing to respawn or finding a supply depot to swap to an Amarr Logi fit. Because "presto!" my previously deployed links that I set up on using a scout suit are now made ultra-awesome by my logi rig. IMO, this aspect of the sandbox should be retained- I really do feel like I should still be able to do this. For the record, such an action is to compensate for the slowness of the Amarr Logi, by making use of the mobility of scout suits to get links into good spots quickly, before actually using the AmLogi suit to make the links awesome. Sentinel Bandwidth I would argue that a Sentinel suit should have a small amount of bandwidth. In this case, I would also recommend the opposite direction of iteration that I recommend for scout BW- start off with 8 BW across all Sentinel suits, and then see if it's too much. If it is, then reduce it to 4 BW, at which point a heavy could still help his team by having a link set out, or a nanohive set up for himself, but it's of very limited utility. Other Assorted Thoughts I'm not sure that assaults and commandos need more BW than scouts. Part of this has to do with the fact that scouts tend to have an- at least intended- role that is more equipment-centric, but also because equipment selection for assaults and commandos tends to, at least in my experience both seeing and using these suits, be more self-benefit rather than team-benefit in terms of choice. That's not to say that these classes never carry things like needles, links, or rep tools; rather, it is more likely that dedicated assault and commando players tend to prefer nanos or scanners. There's a few that do favor RE's as well, but they tend to be a minority in my experience. This being said, the more defensive/supportive nature of commandos does lead to them, at least IMO, be more likely to select things like dedicated triage or rep/resupply hives, so giving commandos a slightly higher BW value than assaults and scouts is a potential way to not only differentiate the former from the latter two, but also to maybe help define the commando role slightly better. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4731	Posted - 2014.11.19 01:56:00 - [190] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: According to my understanding of the system, the statement above is false. In actuality, ifI start the match as a Logi with 24Bw (For the sake of argument) and use up all of my bandwidth to put down equipment in the order - Flux Uplink Gauged Uplink Triage Nanohive Remote explosive - then when I switch suits, my equipment will be destroyed in reverse order until I reach my new suit's bandwidth. That is to say that I would still have an active Flux and Gauged uplink on the field, but no nanohive or remote explosive. Thus, no one is being "shoe-horned" into a role. If you plan on making dynamic changes to your loadout, then plan your equipment deployment carefully. For the sake of opening more options, I could agree with a module that increases a suits Bw (up to a maximum suit value of 24) so that players who wish to sacrifice something to keep their equipment alive in a different suit would also have recourse to do so Except it'd be oldest equipment popping first. B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought

PLAYSTTION GamersForChrist 338	Posted - 2014.11.19 02:20:00 - [191] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: PLAYSTTION wrote: At first i thought this would be bad, read it and its genius. Assaults can carry 1 nano hive and resupply themselves and logis can drop a bunch. But does this stop people from having 6 nano hives on 3 suits and placing 18 down? Yes it does, the BW limitation is defined by the suit as a maximum value there for swapping suits will NOT increase your available BW unless you are moving from a suit with a low max value to a suit with a high max value, but even in that case the two values will not stack. For example someone like myself who has all four racial logis at max will not be able to get any more than 24 BW worth of equipment deployed in any context, the same amount as a player with a single proto logi, and both of us will lose some/all of that deployed equipment if we transition into a non-logi suit. What about logis with racial bonuses to equipment? Will they have an advantage like X% BW boost per level to make them have an bonus? they already have an advantage but this would make nonohives and uplinks more role specific. A cal logi can place both quality and a higher quality hives due to bonuses, but a Gallente logi would have to choose quality over quantity. Gallente Assault-Caldari Logistics `- Open Beta Vet - 31mil sp - - Join the LFSquad chat -`
S-PANZA Expert Intervention Caldari State 93	Posted - 2014.11.19 02:23:00 - [192] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: Firstly, +1 on this proposal, looks well thought out and it is a relief to see equipment spam finally addressed. Secondly, ARRRGHHHH!!!! Rattati you have too many balls in the air. I want to give this topic the long thinking, but...... Scout role is still unresolved. We have yet to see the effects of personal orbitals on equipment spam. We have yet to experience the reality of the proposed ewar system/equipment sig profile. Logi racial/role skills still need another pass. Logi native repair still unresolved. Logi ewar stats still unresolved. There are hints of module efficacy-based bonuses coming up in your ewar proposals - heavily pertinent to logis, no? Basic frames still need looking at - an equipment advantage has been proposed for the basics so pertinent itt also. Anything any of us propose in this thread without having numbers/experience with the above factors is boolshitting. I love to bs as much as the next merc, but we're trying to get good gamplay out of this so wingin' it prolly ain't the answer. Also we can see a lot of reasoning itt predicated on 'the scout is too good'....or 'heavy spam'. Absolutely the wrong way to design a system but all those unfinished systems and unresolved issues are increasingly affecting every conversation we have. If we keep theorycrafting based on mushy, half finished systems we might as well start philosophizing on religion or economics. Speaking in terms of very general gameplay, a few things stand out: Player Engagement Avoid hard limits on role restriction, allow peeps to play the game the way they want. Allow mercs to contribute to their teams as they see fit based on their assessment of strategic and tactical needs. Would accomplish this in two ways: Give heavies a minimum bandwidth(say 4 or 8) and allow modest bandwidth increases through a module. If a player judges that the correct decision for the team is to swap out their uplink scout for a heavy to defend the initial point they can do so without depriving the team of the one or two uplinks they laid down on the way in. This allows the player to feel more engaged and connected to the welfare of the team. What does the gameplay gain by hard-restricting the contributions of anybody who swaps to heavy? I say it loses. Player Decisions and Consequences The BW limit is interesting gameplay. The complaints itt that logis won't be able to keep all their equipment deployed all the time if they swap to other frames is off the mark. It would result in trivial, meaningless decision-making. BW limits result in interesting decision making. A logi who deploys lots of high BW equipment and then who is forced by the flow of battle to switch to another suit won't loose all of their equipment, and the rule of thumb will be: deploy the important stuff(i.e. uplinks) first and don't deploy any more than you need too. Plan ahead in your deployment pattern so that if you need to swap out of logi, you still have a viable equipment slot/BW capacity on you scout or assault. Fitting Screen and UI Must be intuitive and interactive. This **** is getting complicated, even for seasoned old mercs. Must be paralyzing for new peeps. I'd say pure visual infographics, masterfully done, were a bare minimum requirement for accessibility and player engagement. Very much this ^. Thanks for typing what I was thinking and too lazy to type.
RedPencil Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 125	Posted - 2014.11.19 02:34:00 - [193] - Quote RE and Prox BW are too high. - Low down the RE BW to 2 - Low down Prox BW to 1 Beware Paper cut M[;..;]M
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 171	Posted - 2014.11.19 02:40:00 - [194] - Quote Scouts have a lot of advantages at the moment so I would advocate a lower bandwidth than all other suits on the condition a new scoutly uplink is created that has a low bandwidth/spawn count/scan profile/timer to establish forward positions that logis and heavies can then strengthen
Chimichanga66605 Vader's Taco Shack 229	Posted - 2014.11.19 03:04:00 - [195] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Realistically, for the people worried about scouts and proxies/RE's, can't we just make it so they are less BW? As in, one RE is nowhere near as useful as 1 uplink, so it should have less bandwidth. I see no reason why every single individual deployed item should have the same exact bandwidth. Same with compact nanohives, why not make them 1/2 the BW of a X-2, for example? Finally, as for those confused about the mechanic, I'll give an example. I'll make the math easy and not representative of what's in the spreadsheet. Scenario 1: Start battle in an Amarr Logi suit which has enough BW to drop 6 uplinks or hives. I drop 4 uplinks and 2 hives. I switch to a different logi suit for whatever reason. It has the same amount of BW, 6 pieces. I already have 6 out so if I drop another, the "oldest" one I have from before "pops". I don't make new BW out of thin air because I switched suits. The amount of equipment you can have out at any time is based on the suit you are in at that moment. Scenario 2: I'm a spam monkey. I start the match in a min logi suit, which has the BW for 6 uplinks. I drop them all and then hit the supply depot to move on to my l33t cloaked shotty scout. It has enough BW for 3 uplinks. oops! The first 3 uplinks I deployed 'pop'. My delicious slayer scout tears flow onto the forums where actual logis feed on them. Ok, I've read every post leading up this trying to get a full grasp on this BW thing. Possibly the longest grind I've ever done in Dust514....if I only could've read the spreadsheet (Smartphones my Matari ASS). Anyways, thank you John for running it down like this, I finally get it. This is a borderline genius idea, & I fully support it. Now, if you'll excuse me I'm gonna go get drunk while you much smarter Mercenaries work out the best idea since the Assault Combat Rifle. -Chimi out, o7 Mk.0 Specialist, Republic Loyalist "Badassery is not born, but often thrust upon you." -Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2315	Posted - 2014.11.19 03:05:00 - [196] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: I still have five more pages of this thread to get through, but I wanted to reiterate a point that I noticed was getting looked over multiple times. Many people have incorrectly assumed that this proposal will shoe-horn people who like to use equipment into Logistic roles under the following premise: "If I die and switch to a different suit, all of my equipment is destroyed. The only way I can use equipment is to deploy it as a Logi and hide from the battle. Thus, I am forced to either pick one suit class for a whole battle. Why CCP?!" According to my understanding of the system, the statement above is false. In actuality, ifI start the match as a Logi with 24Bw (For the sake of argument) and use up all of my bandwidth to put down equipment in the order - Flux Uplink Gauged Uplink Triage Nanohive Remote explosive - then when I switch suits, my equipment will be destroyed in reverse order until I reach my new suit's bandwidth. That is to say that I would still have an active Flux and Gauged uplink on the field, but no nanohive or remote explosive. Thus, no one is being "shoe-horned" into a role. If you plan on making dynamic changes to your loadout, then plan your equipment deployment carefully. For the sake of opening more options, I could agree with a module that increases a suits Bw (up to a maximum suit value of 24) so that players who wish to sacrifice something to keep their equipment alive in a different suit would also have recourse to do so +1 Agree with your interpretation. PSN: RationalSpark
Kain Spero Goonfeet 3843	Posted - 2014.11.19 03:48:00 - [197] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear Players Based on a lot of feedback, both from CPM, Community and previous CCP designs, one of the things we are able to conjure up is the much wanted Equipment Bandwidth feature. This has been a long time coming and it's great to finally see that it's going to be implemented. I actually think the limited bandwidth on scouts and heavies will bring some much needed change to the meta. Not to mention finally addressing the status quo of spam and switch. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Doshneil Antaro Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 296	Posted - 2014.11.19 04:04:00 - [198] - Quote RedPencil wrote: RE and Prox BW are too high. - Low down the RE BW to 2 - Low down Prox BW to 1 I agree with proxis to 1, but reducing REs is a bad idea. The point to BW is to reduce equipment spam and RE's is a persistent isue vs infantry players and is part of the spam issue. I still say (like I have since REs were introduced ) that the RE and proxy damage profiles need to be flipped. Proxis are anti-vehicle so need to hit harder than the triggered counter parts that target infantry more often than not. Sage /thread
lee corwood Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 1056	Posted - 2014.11.19 04:57:00 - [199] - Quote Sorry if this was already asked, too many pages in, but does that mean: -I spawn Suit A and lay down 2 uplinks of type X. -In combat I die. -To counter what I'm fighting (say, I'm getting killed by a RR from far distance but I only have limited range weapon on Suit A), I spawn in with Suit B which also has uplinks of type X. Does that mean my uplinks stay? Or do they die with me and I'd have to deploy yet again? I see this causing a few problems simply for the delay. When testing the bonuses that logi's give to EQ, if I switched from an Amarr Logi to a Min Logi, it took quite a few minutes before the bonus was removed from my uplinks. I assume that checksum on what suit and what I'm holding against what is deployed would have a similar delay. Knights of Ender Director Logi 4 Life \| Youtube Vids
Samki Licui Eternal Beings Dark Taboo 0	Posted - 2014.11.19 05:25:00 - [200] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Every dropsuit has a built-in Equipment Controller, which has a certain Bandwidth Capacity (in MHz). Shouldn't units of bandwidth capacity be in bits per second (Kbps, Mbps, Gbps, etc) instead of cycles per second? My first thought when I see "MHz" is to think "which frequency" or "which channel", instead of "amount of data transfer capacity". On another note, I have one suggestion on the implementation of the equipment destruction mechanism: - If the respawned suit has sufficient bandwidth, preserve all dropped equipment on battlefield - If the respawned suit does NOT have sufficient bandwidth, then destroy equipment in the following order until sufficient bandwidth is available for remaining equipment: ---- 1. equipment for which the respawned suit lacks modules ---- 2. equipment for which the respawned suit has at least one corresponding module, beginning with the least recently placed equipment The intention of the above suggestion is to allow a player to switch from a logistics suit to a different suit type but being able to prioritize which equipment is preserved and which equipment is destroyed according to the current tactical situation. My suggestion will also require players to prepare suits that have the modules they wish to preserve when exiting logistics suit. Let me illustrate my intention with an example: - The player spawns with a scout suit equipped with a droplink - The player places 3 droplinks - The player fights enemy players until she dies. - The player respawns with a logistics suit equipped with a needle, nanohive, repair tool, and remote explosives. - The player drops 1 nanohive - The player drops 1 remote explosive - The player drops 1 more nanohive ---- The 2 nanohives, 1 remote explosive, and 3 droplinks are preserved if her new logistics suit has sufficient bandwidth for all 5 equipments ---- If her logistics suit has insufficient bandwidth, then the oldest droplink is destroyed since she lacks a droplink module ---- Let's assume her logistics suit has sufficient bandwidth for all 3 droplinks, 2 nanohives, and the 1 remote explosive. - The player dies - The player respawns with an assault suit equipped with only a droplink module ---- the assault suit has insufficient bandwidth to support all dropped equipment ---- the first dropped nanohive is destroyed since the assault suit lacks a nanohive module ---- the assault suit still has insufficient bandwidth to support remaining dropped equipment ---- the remote explosive is destroyed since the assault suit lacks a remote explosive module ---- the assault suit still has insufficient bandwidth to support the remaining dropped equipment ---- the second dropped nanohive is destroyed since the assault suit lacks a nanohive module ---- the assault suit now has sufficient bandwidth to support the remaining dropped equipment ---- the remaining 3 droplinks are preserved In this example, the player was able to preserve the droplinks she laid early in the game by making sure all her subsequent suits either A) had excess bandwidth or B) had the droplink module equipped. She made a conscious decision to sacrifice her nanohives and remote explosive in order to prioritize her team's ability to spawn at her droplinks. I think giving players the ability to doggedly preserve some dropped equipment at the expense of future suit versatility makes the destruction of equipment (due to low bandwidth) meaningful.

SponkSponkSponk WarRavens Capital Punishment. 1105	Posted - 2014.11.19 05:38:00 - [201] - Quote Samki Licui wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Every dropsuit has a built-in Equipment Controller, which has a certain Bandwidth Capacity (in MHz). Shouldn't units of bandwidth capacity be in bits per second (Kbps, Mbps, Gbps, etc) instead of cycles per second? My first thought when I see "MHz" is to think "which frequency" or "which channel", instead of "amount of data transfer capacity". Bandwidth in Eve is measured in Mbit/sec (an encrypted control channel between the ship and each drone) Dust/Eve transfers
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3947	Posted - 2014.11.19 05:56:00 - [202] - Quote This is an interesting idea. I think Prox mines need to have a boost to damage commiserate with the inability to spam. This is ultimately a good thing, since it was always silly to need to pack three different tiers of prox mines to realistically destroy a vehicle. Other than that, I think it could ultimately be a positive change. The Amarr/Caldari bonuses for having fewer equip slots at the end are also good, so long as they can provide a functional advantage across the range of equipment. Dren&Templar Tragedy.
Stile451 Red Star. EoN. 368	Posted - 2014.11.19 06:12:00 - [203] - Quote Having read the thread and grasped the idea I have to say I see promise but I don't like it in it's current incarnation. I would want to see a few changes happen before I actually liked it. I would love to hear your opinions on it. 1: The first would be that the amount of active deployed equipment would be based on an equipment type hard cap per player(any equipment dropped beyond the hard cap causes the first to self destruct). This will help with performance/spam issues. 2: The second would be that equipment wouldn't self destruct but would rather deactivate if you don't have the bandwidth on your current suit(disabling visuals - no uplink light, no hive bubble). If the newest deployed equipment is destroyed or depleted the next newest would become active after a short waiting period(lets say 10 seconds). This should still help with performance issues(I believe it's caused by the concurrent VFX), and equipment spammers will think twice about spamming useless equipment. This should also allow a logistics player to switch out to another role for a short time as needed without being harshly penalized. 3: Proposed hard caps: Uplinks: 6-7 deployed - the Amarr logistics only has 3 equipment slots at proto level. Nanohives: 6-7 deployed - ditto but for Caldari logistics. Remote Explosives: None - limited by bandwidth. Proximity Explosives: None - limited by bandwidth. 4: I propose removing the bandwidth tiers and giving these bandwidth limits: Logistics: 24 Assault, Commando, Scout: 6(because the selfish among us only need 1 active equipment) Sentinal: 3(so they don't feel left out) 5: I suggest lowering proximity mine bandwidth cost to 1 Here are a few examples: Example 1: I drop 6 uplinks in a logistics suit, then need to swap to AV for a second and take out my Minmatar Commando at a supply depot. The uplinks would become inactive except the last one I dropped. I drop a nanohive causing the last uplink to deactivate, finish with my AV suit and swap back to my logi fit. The uplinks I previously dropped except the first one I dropped would all become active again. Example 2: I drop 6 uplinks in a logistics suit but this time I die. I decide to respawn as a scout with REs. All but that last deployed uplink become inactive. I hack a point and place my RE on the panel and the last uplink deactivates(due to bandwidth restraints). Some silly person doesn't check the panel before counter hacking and I get a free kill. The latest uplink reactivates(the first five are still inactive). Example 3: I drop 6 uplinks, swap to scout with links and all but the last deactivate. I drop another uplink and the previous uplink deactivates, the new one activates, but the first uplink that I dropped self destructs keeping the hard cap at 6. If the new uplink becomes depleted(or destroyed) the next newest uplink activates(and so on while I'm in a lower bandwidth suit). Example 4: I spawn as a scout with 2 sets of remote explosives to go tank hunting. I find an inattentive tank and place all of the REs on it's weak point. Only the last RE is still active. I detonate and the tank is destroyed due to the damage the other REs being detonated by the active RE(while the other REs aren't being actively detonated by me they are still armed and are activated by the damage caused by the one I detonated). Example 5: Again I spawn as a scout with remote explosives but have a different idea in mind. I place REs on 3 objective panels(A, then B, then C). B is being hacked by the enemy and I detonate the active RE(on point C) and get nothing, the RE on point B begins it's activation countdown. B is successfully hacked before the remote on B is active. I detonate anyway but get nothing. The remote on A now becomes active.
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 171	Posted - 2014.11.19 06:13:00 - [204] - Quote Doshneil Antaro wrote: RedPencil wrote: RE and Prox BW are too high. - Low down the RE BW to 2 - Low down Prox BW to 1 I agree with proxis to 1, but reducing REs is a bad idea. The point to BW is to reduce equipment spam and RE's is a persistent isue vs infantry players and is part of the spam issue. I still say (like I have since REs were introduced ) that the RE and proxy damage profiles need to be flipped. Proxis are anti-vehicle so need to hit harder than the triggered counter parts that target infantry more often than not. But the RE frisbee technique is throw then detonate, rinse and repeat. BW wouldn't affect it Whereas it would mean it'd be very difficult to take on tanks (which is fun)
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 410	Posted - 2014.11.19 06:30:00 - [205] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Well, a few things about that, first the direct method described is stacked rather than objective. In the game under a BW mechanic you would not need to take the time to destroy those deployed items nor would you be facing a team free of the same mechanical constraints you are operating under. Leaving that aside what you describe is frankly non-problematic, those players in as logi stay as logi and actually play the role as opposed to the current method of spawn once, deploy everything ditch the logi suit and play only heavy on that point defense throughout the match from then on, because really once you have already self logi'ed rep hives and uplinks why *wouldn't* you just play heavy on that point? And if the best way to run logi is often to not even be in logi suit for the majority of the match then what is the value/point of the suit/role? Because i usually am the Logi. If i'm not flying, i'm droping links, resuplying ammo, and providing reps and scans. Each time I die I redploy in the suit that will give the biggest advantage for what the team needs now. And i do mean die, because switching out at supply depots kills the bonus for my cal and amarr suits. I'm no talking about just perma running heavy after droping a few links, its choosing the right suit for the right situation. Typical example of a match when i'm ground pounding: Do we need links? Amarr logi: At the start to push the point and keep the best uplink spawn timers up as long as i can. Usually have to revert back to this as the match goes on and uplinks invariably gets popped. If there my uplinks are still up and close to the point but its covered in red Heavy Do we have a lot of heavies at the point? Does my squad need reps? (as any logi knows the answer is invariably yes) Winmatar logi Do we need to hit the CRU or flank? Winmatar or gallente assault, winmatar or gallente scout Does my squad need ammo? Cal logi Do we need scans? Gal logi, or gal scout with range amps and dampeners Need to fight a vehicle on the ground? Cal heavy forge, but most likely winmatar commando with swarms Area denial? Winmando with an Mass driver, Amarr assault lazoor, or cal assault rail rifle To some it seems extreme, but I'm not exaggerating, I'll link up a vid of my fittings screen/sp tree later. At each point in the match i need a well placed uplink, and i don't have to sacrifice the entire teams tactical advantages i paid for with my own isk and sp investment to play the game as freely as I want. On certain points Cross i do agre with you. Yes there is a need to cut back on spam and run "logis." I don't like that anymore than, well, anyone. However I can't get around the idea of restricting myself to one suit. I've given it some thought, and along with some feedback i've seen here about REs. there are a some positives. No more jihad jeeps (this is a godsend), no more rooftop forge camping, and yes i admit spam will be cut down drastically. The change is already coming, and if theres anything i've learned as a Pilot, is that if an idea is dropped in a feedback nothing short of a full blown riot (and for Pilots even in case of one) will prevent the changes from being made. The Amarr and caldari bonus will need a complete rework, not connected to either bandwidth or deploying equippment Forget the hives and links, if i'm going to carry both on one sut so i don't pop everything i drop, i wont have any need for a suit that specializes in either. Just a proto win logi so i can keep my reps, needle, and deploy links and hives with out the nano hives or uplinks cancelling each other out. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 128	Posted - 2014.11.19 06:35:00 - [206] - Quote Samki Licui wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Every dropsuit has a built-in Equipment Controller, which has a certain Bandwidth Capacity (in MHz). Shouldn't units of bandwidth capacity be in bits per second (Kbps, Mbps, Gbps, etc) instead of cycles per second? My first thought when I see "MHz" is to think "which frequency" or "which channel", instead of "amount of data transfer capacity". As someone who is currently pursuing an IT networking certification, I can confidently say that bandwidth is in fact expressed on multiples of Hz, rather than bits. From a technical perspective, bandwidth refers to the width of the channel that is used for data transmission; it's also used to refer to the frequency used by wireless transmission technologies. Bitrates are used to express throughput, which is the appropriate term for data transfer rates. Actual "capacity" isn't actually relevant for networking technologies- any limitation on total download/upload is purely a case of economics. SponkSponkSponk wrote: Bandwidth in Eve is measured in Mbit/sec (an encrypted control channel between the ship and each drone) I believe that this is correct as to the intended representation that EVE is using. However, from a purely technical standpoint, it's incorrect, as I outlined above. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
Ghural WarRavens Capital Punishment. 332	Posted - 2014.11.19 06:38:00 - [207] - Quote I don't know if if's already been suggested. But it would be useful to have some sort of visual feedback for how much bandwidth is in use, and when your equipment has been destroyed.
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 1296	Posted - 2014.11.19 07:01:00 - [208] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Can the Sentinel be given the same band width as an Assault, even though the Sentinel does not have an equipment slot? In Pub matches were no one is dropping Uplinks, I am sometimes forced to switch to another fit to place some uplinks. Once that is done I spawn in again in my preferred Sentinel fit after dying or finding a Supply Depot. If the Sentinel has no bandwidth I will be stuck playing a suit that has bandwidth in these situations, because my team needs an uplink or they will be red-lined. This is what this change is designed to prevent. Because, that's why.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 404	Posted - 2014.11.19 07:16:00 - [209] - Quote I like the idea a lot -- just lookin at the numbers: Say you have a BW of 32 (for some Pro logis). That means about 8 pieces of equipment (extremely simplified). Is that what ya'll envision in terms of quantity? Seems just a tad high to me -- but I'm not a logi so I really don't know.
RedPencil Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 128	Posted - 2014.11.19 08:34:00 - [210] - Quote Doshneil Antaro wrote: RedPencil wrote: RE and Prox BW are too high. - Low down the RE BW to 2 - Low down Prox BW to 1 I agree with proxis to 1, but reducing REs is a bad idea. The point to BW is to reduce equipment spam and RE's is a persistent isue vs infantry players and is part of the spam issue. I still say (like I have since REs were introduced ) that the RE and proxy damage profiles need to be flipped. Proxis are anti-vehicle so need to hit harder than the triggered counter parts that target infantry more often than not. Like Juno Tristan said " RE frisbee technique is throw then detonate, rinse and repeat. ", also the current RE already need 4 second to detonate, so I don't think RE spam is a big issue. But the 4bw for each RE will limit the AV potential, and forget about jihad. Even with 2bw, no one has enough bw to stack 7 RE except logi. Beware Paper cut M[;..;]M

Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 414	Posted - 2014.11.19 08:45:00 - [211] - Quote RedPencil wrote: Doshneil Antaro wrote: RedPencil wrote: RE and Prox BW are too high. - Low down the RE BW to 2 - Low down Prox BW to 1 I agree with proxis to 1, but reducing REs is a bad idea. The point to BW is to reduce equipment spam and RE's is a persistent isue vs infantry players and is part of the spam issue. I still say (like I have since REs were introduced ) that the RE and proxy damage profiles need to be flipped. Proxis are anti-vehicle so need to hit harder than the triggered counter parts that target infantry more often than not. Like Juno Tristan said " RE frisbee technique is throw then detonate, rinse and repeat. ", also the current RE already need 4 second to detonate, so I don't think RE spam is a big issue. But the 4bw for each RE will limit the AV potential, and forget about jihad. Even with 2bw, no one has enough bw to stack 7 RE except logi. I take back what i said befoore about BW killing the the jihad jeep, If you have a BPO logi or even a cheaply fit one then you can jihad jeep. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1309	Posted - 2014.11.19 09:21:00 - [212] - Quote So,to sum up most of these replies. Someone and their various alt's:"Sents should get bandwith to keep equipment out." -No,this is designed to negate that very thing. "Logis have too much BW". -god forbid an equipment based suit should accel at using equipment. "basics should rival logistics in BW" -no,equipment spammers would then spam them,seeing as they have better base stats. "BW should have a module" -No,see reason 1. "REs should have lower BW to accomidate scouts". -No,scouts aren't supposed to be the equipment king,logistics is. -And it should be assaults not scouts doing AV. Regardless of any excuses,only equipment spammers will try to find ways to wriggle free of this new idea. If you want to run equipment,you're going to have to run logistics i'm afraid. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
korrah silain True Illuminate 1	Posted - 2014.11.19 10:22:00 - [213] - Quote I'm afraid I'm not up to speed on etiquette in this situation but I posted this in a thread that seemed to be addressing this one. It may be a simpler solution that eliminates the problem. korrah silain wrote: Quick idea just to toss out, but if the goal is to stop logis deploying passive support items and then swapping suits why not make the equipment pop if they spawn in in a suit that doesn't have a copy of the equipment? Then maybe find a way to limit the amount deployable per suit, maybe according to the highest "level" (not meta level, but standard/militia get one copy, adv gets 2 proto gets 3) So for example a suit decides to equip an advanced uplink and a militia uplink would still be limited to two deployable at a time due to adv being his highest level, make the same rules with the hives, maybe allow double the number for Rex's... Heck maybe you could switch the caldari and amarr bonus to possibly add a flat 1 activatable bonus at levels 1, 3, and 5 as well as the existing bonuses to further inscentivise their use... Sorry if any of this is a retread... As an example I also posted this:quote=korrah silain]= For example you are a proto amarr logi and have 3 uplinks out, and having only skilled nanohives to adv you only have two of those out. you need to drive off a dropship, so you switch to a premade av fram the uplinks would only pop if you had either and advanced or lower uplink, or no uplink in the equipment slot. In the case of only an adv or std or militia uplink fitted their you would lose only 1(adv) or two(std/mlt) as well as your hives. Once you switch back you can redeploy hives. If you are complaining about not being able to drive off infantry, well my understanding is that the logos gave up fire power for support. The numbers I gave out were purely hypothetical of course I haven't done math this is all off the cuff, Again I apologize if this either was bad etiquette, or is incomprhensable due to me butchering my quotes
shaman oga The Dunwich Horror 3236	Posted - 2014.11.19 10:35:00 - [214] - Quote I initially thought that it was a good idea, but now i realize this will create more problems than opportunities. With current design you can't: Place a hive for the ammo and swap to heavy. Attach 3 RE (minimun required to destroy a tank) without a PRO scout. Place a decent proxy mine field and change suit, even if it only takes 2 BW, you have to place at least 8-10 mines to create a DECENT mine field, but then even if you swap to another logi, you can't drop nothing or it will make disappear your mine field. This thing of BW can be good for EVE drones in a point and click game, but it should not be in a FPS where you need to take fast decision in a short time, it will add a stress element to a game which is already stressful by nature. A solution to equipment spam? Give to the logi a bonus on carried equipment, at the same time reduce active equipment limit on some equipments. Make it so equipment of the same tier can't be active at the same time (eg. 1 STD link will destroy 1 stable link). Add a timer to the supply depot, so one can't insta-swap suit. Logi will have more equipments when they need them, but on the ground there will be what you need, when you need it, not more. Other classes will not suffer of a excessive nerf.
John Psi Vacuum Cleaner. LLC Steel Balls Alliance 1026	Posted - 2014.11.19 11:13:00 - [215] - Quote Damn, guys... I always thought that mmoRPG (shooter) is Role Play Game. If you choose a role - play it! If you see that your role is useless - select another, but you should lose the results of the previous role! Warlock appeared, cursed all, and then he appeared as a barbarian and hit damned people heads with an ax. And, yes, before hit he stepped on his own blessed nanohive!!! If this continues, abbreviation mmoRPG needs to be changed to Change Ur Pants As Soon As Possible! CHUPASAP!!! Please support fair play!
Syeven Reed T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 995	Posted - 2014.11.19 11:42:00 - [216] - Quote Ekrano Fergus wrote: Could the bandwidth be expressed in Mb instead of MHz. An amount of data makes a bit more sense than the frequency it would be transmitted on when discussing limits. When it talks about frequency it means to total range available. ;) SCAN ATTEMPT PREVENTED EvE - 21 Day Trial
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1309	Posted - 2014.11.19 12:01:00 - [217] - Quote Rattati i hope you are paying attention to the underlying reason(s) players are against this. Players are willing to lose 7 uplinks to run 1 with a sent. Players want BW reduced on REs and proxies for scouts. Can you guess why players are so willing to run less equipment? Survival. Read through several posts and multiple imply being 'trapped' in a logistics suit AKA a death trap. If logistics had some advantage in terms of survival (like speed) then fewer players would be against this. They even say 'switch to support other suits'. Consider that for a second,switching from the master support suit (logistics) because it can't support as well as another can. There are many underlying problems with the suit itself. #1 being survivability Btw,240 eHP and slower than an assault with 400eHP base is stupidly broken.(for example) Or 240 eHP on a medium frame. (example #2) Players can see logistics is a walking coffin,gimped beyond belief 'because it has to be'. Imagine if scouts were slowed to sent speed,this is how logistics appears to anyone with a brain. That is why players don't like the BW idea,and will (attempt to) fight it tooth and nail. And TBH i don't blame them. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 2225	Posted - 2014.11.19 13:34:00 - [218] - Quote Questions for CCP Rattati: 1) Will bandwidth be displayed in the UI? Something like a little bar somewhere that fills up as you deploy equipment is how I picture it. 2) Since equipment will now be functioning as a receiver for a signal from our dropsuits; what is the possibility for us to be able to hack equipment so that it responds to our bandwidth rather than the bandwidth it was deployed on? Gò¡Gê¬Gò«(Gùú_Gùó)Gò¡Gê¬Gò«
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4595	Posted - 2014.11.19 13:48:00 - [219] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: I like the idea a lot -- just lookin at the numbers: Say you have a BW of 32 (for some Pro logis). That means about 8 pieces of equipment (extremely simplified). Is that what ya'll envision in terms of quantity? Seems just a tad high to me -- but I'm not a logi so I really don't know. In an average match, if you include uplinks (usually 4, up to 6, esp. if no-one else is placing them), nanohives (2-4, pretty disposable, I'd likely pop those all the time) and RE's (3) it's not in any way unusual for me to have that much out. To keep the objectives in managable striking distance on a 5 point map you need a minimum of 3 uplinks, and that's if they are very well and centrally positioned, with none as fallback points. Under the premise that as an Amarr logi it's my job to keep the map under control like this, 8 is pretty reasonable, though I'm not that fond of having to run proto all the time to do it. It's expensive enough as it is being a logi.... (The godfather of tactical logistics)
nicholas73 Glitched Connection 285	Posted - 2014.11.19 14:15:00 - [220] - Quote My thoughts: Proxies should cost less; the cost should be 1. Setting up a net of proxies for a tank would easily take 20 bandwidth which is well more than what the standard logi has. Love how restricted the scouts with low bandwidth. The nanohive cost should be lowered to 3, nanohives are rarely used for resupplying in the battlefield; the triage nanohives (except the compact) should maintain the current cost of 4 (or can be increased to 5) to prevent their spam. Remotes should cost 5 or 6 considering how they are spammed and such; most people tend to blow it up right after they throw them anyway. Proud member of Glitched Connection "Only idiots start a fight they can't win" - Sora (No Game No Life)

Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4927	Posted - 2014.11.19 14:34:00 - [221] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: With respect Fox being stuck playing a suit with bandwidth if you want to have equipment deployed at any given level is exactly the point. With respect Cross, when I made my earlier posts I was working off the assumption that the sole purpose of this change was to reduce Equipment Spam by not allowing Logi to drop more than one suitGÇÖs worth of equipment, and to prevent Logi from switching to other classes while maintaining a full Logi load out of deployed equipment. What was not made clear in the original post is that this change is intended to deal with multiple issues: 1)Decrease Equipment Spam 2)Discourage Role Switching. Increase the commitment to the role you spawn into. 3)Nerf Scouts who act as fast Logi. 4)Nerf Sentinels who try to get around their lack of an equipment slot. 5)Buff Caldari/Amarr Logi, provided they stick to their role. It was not clear initially in RattatiGÇÖs post that discouraging Role Switching was an intended consequence of the introduction of Bandwidth. In a way this will help new players who only have the skill points to specialize in one role, as it will be easier for them to compete against Vets who have mastered multiple roles if the game discourages role switching during matches. It will be an adjustment, but I can accept the Sentinel not having any Bandwidth. What I still have a concern with: I am concerned about the Bandwidth nerf to Scouts. First, I think that Scouts are out of Balance because they can be made to be too robust without major drawbacks, and because the Assault suit, which is supposed to act as the Counter to Scouts, does not have the tools to counter Scouts. Second, I fell these Bandwidth changes are trying to nerf some of the ScoutGÇÖs Core Role, which is operating and insertion behind enemy lines, and CQC AV work. Placing Drop Uplinks behind enemy lines is part of the ScoutGÇÖs Core Role! Placing Remote Explosives on tanks is one of the ScoutGÇÖs Core Roles. (Before sticky Remotes, the Remotes were placed on the road and the Scout hid and activated the Remotes when the tank rolled past, to begin their ambush.) Scouts also have to operate independently. While an Assault suit can rely on equipment provided by other members of their squad, a Scout operates independently much of the time. Having two slots gives a Scout more resources to work with, having the Bandwidth of a suit with only one equipment slot would give a Scout the equipment abilities of one half of two Assault suits. (2/1=1) I think that is reasonable. Having the Band width of a suit with only one equipment slot would also define the difference between the Scout and the Logi. A logi can deploy all their equipment at the same time, while a Scout would have to choose between one type at full deployment capacity, or two different types of equipment at half deployment capacity. Nerfing the Scout to have less than a single equipment slot suit is unwarranted. It is not an appropriate way to nerf Scouts. The difference between Scouts and Logi, besides Logi being able to deploy more equipment, is that Scouts are supposed to be more fragile than Logi and not appropriate for use on the front line in head to head combat situations. The fact is that Scouts are not as Fragile as they are supposed to be. Or more accurately, Armour Plate stacking Scouts have more survivability than Logi, and have therefore supplanted Logi in the Logi role on the front lines. Having Armour Plate reduce strafe speed is the type of nerf we need to balance Scouts, not limiting their Bandwidth! And to be clear, I donGÇÖt play Scout. (I would like to, but I suck at it for many reasons.) So I am looking at this from a wider game perspective. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3949	Posted - 2014.11.19 15:00:00 - [222] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: What was not made clear in the original post is that this change is intended to deal with multiple issues: 1)Decrease Equipment Spam 2)Discourage Role Switching. Increase the commitment to the role you spawn into. 3)Nerf Scouts who act as fast Logi. 4)Nerf Sentinels who try to get around their lack of an equipment slot. 5)Buff Caldari/Amarr Logi, provided they stick to their role. I'd add to that needing to bring multiple tiers of equipment to accomplish a single objective (proxies, maybe hives) is ideally also being targeted here. These are ultimately positives I think. I say that as someone that's done the: switch to logi, spam; switch to heavy and forge-gun; switch to whatever scout and run a link... If a heavy has enough bandwidth to support a single hive or a link or something (considering commandos have an equip slot), then that's one thing. However, you can do that one-man-army schtick and have a heavy sit on sea of rep hives, etc. as-is. Similarly, demolitions types can spam proxies in three flavors with a logi across some choke point then return to being a scout. I can see how it might be problematic in that sticking to roles ultimately requires people to be grouped and communicating to be an effective team. The fact that heavies don't have a slot has always suggested to me that they're meant to have logistics backup for full efficacy. That people don't always play as a team and vets can one-man-army using multiple roles is sort of a separate issue. The only real issue to me is that the role exclusion is ultimately a logi-specific thing here. Going from logi to blank - you're punished with equipment lost. Go from heavy to scout, scout to assault, etc. it doesn't matter because the only real role restriction is equipment-based. Dren&Templar Tragedy.
Doshneil Antaro Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 297	Posted - 2014.11.19 15:15:00 - [223] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Cross Atu wrote: With respect Fox being stuck playing a suit with bandwidth if you want to have equipment deployed at any given level is exactly the point. With respect Cross, when I made my earlier posts I was working off the assumption that the sole purpose of this change was to reduce Equipment Spam by not allowing Logi to drop more than one suitGÇÖs worth of equipment, and to prevent Logi from switching to other classes while maintaining a full Logi load out of deployed equipment. What was not made clear in the original post is that this change is intended to deal with multiple issues: 1)Decrease Equipment Spam 2)Discourage Role Switching. Increase the commitment to the role you spawn into. 3)Nerf Scouts who act as fast Logi. 4)Nerf Sentinels who try to get around their lack of an equipment slot. 5)Buff Caldari/Amarr Logi, provided they stick to their role. It was not clear initially in RattatiGÇÖs post that discouraging Role Switching was an intended consequence of the introduction of Bandwidth. In a way this will help new players who only have the skill points to specialize in one role, as it will be easier for them to compete against Vets who have mastered multiple roles if the game discourages role switching during matches. It will be an adjustment, but I can accept the Sentinel not having any Bandwidth. What I still have a concern with: I am concerned about the Bandwidth nerf to Scouts. First, I think that Scouts are out of Balance because they can be made to be too robust without major drawbacks, and because the Assault suit, which is supposed to act as the Counter to Scouts, does not have the tools to counter Scouts. Second, I fell these Bandwidth changes are trying to nerf some of the ScoutGÇÖs Core Role, which is operating and insertion behind enemy lines, and CQC AV work. Placing Drop Uplinks behind enemy lines is part of the ScoutGÇÖs Core Role! Placing Remote Explosives on tanks is one of the ScoutGÇÖs Core Roles. (Before sticky Remotes, the Remotes were placed on the road and the Scout hid and activated the Remotes when the tank rolled past, to begin their ambush.) Scouts also have to operate independently. While an Assault suit can rely on equipment provided by other members of their squad, a Scout operates independently much of the time. Having two slots gives a Scout more resources to work with, having the Bandwidth of a suit with only one equipment slot would give a Scout the equipment abilities of one half of two Assault suits. (2/1=1) I think that is reasonable. Having the Band width of a suit with only one equipment slot would also define the difference between the Scout and the Logi. A logi can deploy all their equipment at the same time, while a Scout would have to choose between one type at full deployment capacity, or two different types of equipment at half deployment capacity. Nerfing the Scout to have less than a single equipment slot suit is unwarranted. It is not an appropriate way to nerf Scouts. The difference between Scouts and Logi, besides Logi being able to deploy more equipment, is that Scouts are supposed to be more fragile than Logi and not appropriate for use on the front line in head to head combat situations. The fact is that Scouts are not as Fragile as they are supposed to be. Or more accurately, Armour Plate stacking Scouts have more survivability than Logi, and have therefore supplanted Logi in the Logi role on the front lines. Having Armour Plate reduce strafe speed is the type of nerf we need to balance Scouts, not limiting their Bandwidth! And to be clear, I donGÇÖt play Scout. (I would like to, but I suck at it for many reasons.) So I am looking at this from a wider game perspective. First off scouts "ScoutGÇÖs Core Role" is not nor ever intended to be AV. This was just a mere side effect of them getting the extra equipment slot. They got this slot so they could fit a cloak, place an uplink, or whip out the scanner to light up the area for the squad. Then they also got all the ewar as well and their passive scans made the active scanner pointless for a scout to carry. edit with the recent/soon cloak fixws will see less desirability of the cloak. I do agree with everything else you posted and really agree with plates reducing strafe speed is needed as a small step to unfucking the battlefield balance. Strafing across the field needs serious work period. Scout speed tanking should be viable but this matrix bullet dodging and hopping above a grenade/MD rounds needs to be brought down some. Sage /thread
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4927	Posted - 2014.11.19 15:19:00 - [224] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Aeon, a lighter suit can use its mobility and radar superiority to achieve the correct geographical or position based advantage required to beat a heavy. The reality is that most people in lighter suits do not. They want to run and gun, oblivious to their surroundings and twitch shoot their way to the top of the killboard like a 13 year old on redbull. Heavies stop them from doing that, and there are a lot of people with the mentality that it should be both allowed, and promoted. Although I feel that you and Aeon both swing too far on your respective sides of the pendulum when it comes to HMG Sentinels discussions, I do fully agree with this. Something that might help: Can we have Frame Size indicated for dots shown on the Radar? Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 2227	Posted - 2014.11.19 15:29:00 - [225] - Quote Doshneil Antaro wrote: First off scouts "ScoutGÇÖs Core Role" is not nor ever intended to be AV. This was just a mere side effect of them getting the extra equipment slot. They got this slot so they could fit a cloak, place an uplink, or whip out the scanner to light up the area for the squad. Then they also got all the ewar as well and their passive scans made the active scanner pointless for a scout to carry. edit with the recent/soon cloak fixes will see less desirability of the cloak. I do agree with everything else you posted and really agree with plates reducing strafe speed is needed as a small step to unf*****g the battlefield balance. Strafing across the field needs serious work period. Scout speed tanking should be viable but this matrix bullet dodging and hopping above a grenade/MD rounds needs to be brought down some. I have used Scouts for AV long before they had a second equipment slot. Low profile = less chance you get scanned by the HAV = higher probability of a kill Gò¡Gê¬Gò«(Gùú_Gùó)Gò¡Gê¬Gò«
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4927	Posted - 2014.11.19 15:37:00 - [226] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Can the Sentinel be given the same band width as an Assault, even though the Sentinel does not have an equipment slot? In Pub matches were no one is dropping Uplinks, I am sometimes forced to switch to another fit to place some uplinks. Once that is done I spawn in again in my preferred Sentinel fit after dying or finding a Supply Depot. If the Sentinel has no bandwidth I will be stuck playing a suit that has bandwidth in these situations, because my team needs an uplink or they will be red-lined. With respect Fox being suck playing a suit with bandwidth if you want to have equipment deployed at any given level is exactly the point. There has been a lot of talk about a nerf to heavies, hmgs, or both, because of "heavy spam". However it is the current game and map meta not the class balance which feeds this proliferation of heavies. The Sentinel frame has zero equipment slots using depot/spawn swap as is currently possible gets around one of the fundamental drawbacks built into the frame and adds to the excessive proliferation of Sentinels on the field because if you can provide your own deployable support, gain scout level eWar from a friendly scout on the field, and use a LAV or DS for mobility the question effectively becomes why not use a Sentinel? The context which creates that last question needs addressed both for diversity of game play and for the preservation of the Sentinel role itself. 0.02 ISK Cross Meaning in a public match where no one is placing Drop Uplinks I canGÇÖt in good contentious play a Sentinel. Are you going to take away my ability to hack objectives next? Honestly that's a false corollary, hacking is not a role just as the ability to kill at all is not a role. One cannot balance a team game around always providing for solo player utility within a totally disorganized team. A meaningful role cannot be based on something everyone in every fit can do. If every fit had 4 equip slots, an heavy weapon, 2x LW, a racial LW buff and eWar to the gills there would be no diversity, no choice, no specialization. These changes do not in any way take away your ability to do more than one thing in a match, they just reduce your ability to do more than one thing at the same time. So a proper corollary would be taking away your ability to hack while shooting red dots at the same time and if that were in question - rather than the current baseline - yes I would support that as a change also. There are many metrics showing a trend towards over proliferation of heavy use and thus cries for a nerf are steadily increasing, I for one would much rather see heavies not be able to 'self logi' than see their role as point defense crippled. And I say this as someone who as proto in all four Sentinel suits. This will meaningfully effect how I play the game at present, especially those days when I'm running solo, but that challenge for me does not mean it's a bad change for the health of the game. 0.02 ISK Cross Cross, my second comment was a bit obtuse, but what I was getting at was that Sentinels not being able to use equipment limits their ability to earn War Points compared to every other class, and then on top of that CCP Z mentioned at Fan Fest that they were thinking of taking away the SentinelGÇÖs ability to Hack Objectives in Legion, which would leave Killing as the only way for HMG Sentinels to earn WP. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 320	Posted - 2014.11.19 15:46:00 - [227] - Quote Stile451[u wrote: 2:[/u] The second would be that equipment wouldn't self destruct but would rather deactivate if you don't have the bandwidth on your current suit(disabling visuals - no uplink light, no hive bubble). If the newest deployed equipment is destroyed or depleted the next newest would become active after a short waiting period(lets say 10 seconds). This should still help with performance issues(I believe it's caused by the concurrent VFX), and equipment spammers will think twice about spamming useless equipment. This should also allow a logistics player to switch out to another role for a short time as needed without being harshly penalized. +1 for this adjustment! Please do not pop deployed equipment when we change suits. Just deactivate it. My proposal to simplify the whole thing would be 10 deployables hard cap for all suits. 10 Active for Logi 4 Active for Assault and Commando 2 Active for Scouts 1 Active for Sentinels If you deploy more then 10, the first gets destroyed. If you change suits, stuff gets deactivated, if you change back, it get's reactivated. RE's + Proxies count as 1/3rd equipment. Max 6 each. Also Max 6 uplinks (8 for Amarr logi) and max 6 Hives (8 for Caldari Logi). This would help much more with spam than anything else. It's usually just one or two players who spam the hell out of everything in a match. We would need a deployed equipment counter, to keep track of destroyed equipment. (Since we don't see the deactivated stuff on the map anymore)... On the spawn screen, we should be able to see stuff popping up and away, when we change suits in the selector. This would allow to go for a Logi, if we need to reactivate a certain uplink, that would not be available with another suit. With these adjustments, I would still be able to plant strategic uplinks. Without loosing most of them with a suit change. If the active ones get destroyed, the ones deployed before them get reactivated. Also deactivated equipment would have a scan profile as remotes and proxies, making them harder to find. I love this game because of the customization of the fits, If I have to play logi all the time just to keep my stuff in the game, I would probably play logi even less, than after the last nerfs to the class. This game is about adjustment to the battlefield, making logis not able to adapt is a bad move, because all other roles can switch without consequences. Cheers Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing...
Doshneil Antaro Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 297	Posted - 2014.11.19 15:52:00 - [228] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: Doshneil Antaro wrote: First off scouts "ScoutGÇÖs Core Role" is not nor ever intended to be AV. This was just a mere side effect of them getting the extra equipment slot. They got this slot so they could fit a cloak, place an uplink, or whip out the scanner to light up the area for the squad. Then they also got all the ewar as well and their passive scans made the active scanner pointless for a scout to carry. edit with the recent/soon cloak fixes will see less desirability of the cloak. I do agree with everything else you posted and really agree with plates reducing strafe speed is needed as a small step to unf*****g the battlefield balance. Strafing across the field needs serious work period. Scout speed tanking should be viable but this matrix bullet dodging and hopping above a grenade/MD rounds needs to be brought down some. I have used Scouts for AV long before they had a second equipment slot. Low profile = less chance you get scanned by the HAV = higher probability of a kill What you say is true. It just not a core responsibility of the scout frame. The core of the scout is to infiltrate, set up a backdoor for the team, provide intel of the enemy, and then assasinate/disrupt enemy lines until others can reinforce. Scouts are great at other things and can be used in any matter, but those things are not at the core, just a nice side effect. Sage /thread
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4928	Posted - 2014.11.19 15:55:00 - [229] - Quote PLAYSTTION wrote: At first i thought this would be bad, read it and its genius. Assaults can carry 1 nano hive and resupply themselves and logis can drop a bunch. But does this stop people from having 6 nano hives on 3 suits and placing 18 down? If your last suit only has the Bandwidth for 1 Nanohives, then the other 17 Nanohives will go "POP". If your last suit only has the Bandwidth for 6 Nanohives, then the other 12 Nanohives will go "POP". Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Doshneil Antaro Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 297	Posted - 2014.11.19 16:01:00 - [230] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: Stile451[u wrote: 2:[/u] The second would be that equipment wouldn't self destruct but would rather deactivate if you don't have the bandwidth on your current suit(disabling visuals - no uplink light, no hive bubble). If the newest deployed equipment is destroyed or depleted the next newest would become active after a short waiting period(lets say 10 seconds). This should still help with performance issues(I believe it's caused by the concurrent VFX), and equipment spammers will think twice about spamming useless equipment. This should also allow a logistics player to switch out to another role for a short time as needed without being harshly penalized. +1 for this adjustment! Please do not pop deployed equipment when we change suits. Just deactivate it. My proposal to simplify the whole thing would be 10 deployables hard cap for all suits. 10 Active for Logi 3 Active for Assault and Commando 2 Active for Scouts 1 Active for Sentinels If you deploy more then 10, the first gets destroyed. If you change suits, stuff gets deactivated, if you change back, it get's reactivated. RE's + Proxies count as 1/3rd equipment. Max 6 each. Also Max 6 uplinks (8 for Amarr logi) and max 6 Hives (8 for Caldari Logi). This would help much more with spam than anything else. It's usually just one or two players who spam the hell out of everything in a match. We would need a deployed equipment counter, to keep track of destroyed equipment. (Since we don't see the deactivated stuff on the map anymore)... On the spawn screen, we should be able to see stuff popping up and away, when we change suits in the selector. This would allow to go for a Logi, if we need to reactivate a certain uplink, that would not be available with another suit. With these adjustments, we would still be able to plant strategic uplinks. Without loosing most of them with a suit change. If the active ones get destroyed, the ones deployed before them get reactivated. Also deactivated equipment would have a scan profile as remotes and proxies, making them harder to find. I love this game because of the customization of the fits, If I have to play logi all the time just to keep my stuff in the game, I would probably play logi even less, than after the last nerfs to the class. This game is about adjustment to the battlefield, making logis not able to adapt is a bad move, because all other roles can switch without consequences. Cheers Although I love this idea, the bw pop is necessary. The reason it pops is as much for frame rate as well as game immersion. Ever suit picked, every equipment placed need to be well thought out and serve a purpose. Spam, switch, and forget is not a purpose, but rather abuse. Your fix would be ideal if not for the frame rate issue would still be present. Sage /thread

Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4928	Posted - 2014.11.19 16:02:00 - [231] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: Stuff Well, a few things about that, first the direct method described is stacked rather than objective. In the game under a BW mechanic you would not need to take the time to destroy those deployed items nor would you be facing a team free of the same mechanical constraints you are operating under. Leaving that aside what you describe is frankly non-problematic, those players in as logi stay as logi and actually play the role as opposed to the current method of spawn once, deploy everything ditch the logi suit and play only heavy on that point defense throughout the match from then on, because really once you have already self logi'ed rep hives and uplinks why *wouldn't* you just play heavy on that point? And if the best way to run logi is often to not even be in logi suit for the majority of the match then what is the value/point of the suit/role? If this results in a large number of HMG Sentinels switching to playing Logi only, that would make me very happy. If this results in a large number of Logi/HMG Sentinels switching to playing Assault because they can no longer have the best of both worldsGÇª That too would make me very happy! Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4928	Posted - 2014.11.19 16:08:00 - [232] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: I guess I'm still unclear as to how this works. If you are saying it is Dropsuit based, then it's bandwidth per dropsuit? As in, Spawn Amarr logi, spam uplinks, then spawn Cal Logi and spam hives because I have another 24 BW? This is how it all works now. Or is it bandwidth per person, no matter what race or dropsuit you spawn? As in I spawn Amarr Logi, spam uplinks, then spawn in Cal Logi and spam hives, but all my Amarr Logi uplinks pop. I'm thinking this is how it will work, which is awesome. Second scenario sort of. When you switch to your Cal Logi, every time you toss out a Hive, one of your earlier Uplinks would "POP". Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4928	Posted - 2014.11.19 16:09:00 - [233] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: Can we also make equipment hackable in the same update? Please ?? :3 I play Sentinel... if I hack it, it would go "POP". ... unless it was like a hacked vehicle, and still belonged to the person who spawned it, using some Red Dot's Bandwidth until they used their Bandwidth for something else... If I could hack an enemy NanoHive to replenish my Burst HMG that would be splendid! ... Of course a Sentinel is at its most vulnerable when hacking. Even when they stop hacking there is a short delay before they can shoot. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 320	Posted - 2014.11.19 16:19:00 - [234] - Quote Doshneil Antaro wrote: Although I love this idea, the bw pop is necessary. The reason it pops is as much for frame rate as well as game immersion. Ever suit picked, every equipment placed need to be well thought out and serve a purpose. Spam, switch, and forget is not a purpose, but rather abuse. Your fix would be ideal if not for the frame rate issue would still be present. I beg to differ, the framerates should go up, because deactivated stuff has no sound FX and no visual FX. So much less stuff to render and calculate. If this is not enough, I would go so far as to restrain The max amount per player even further. The point is, if the stuff pops, the logi would be the only suit that might do stuff for nothing. If a scout gets kills or intel and switches later no punishment. Same for Assault and Heavies. But if a logi tries to prepare the pattlefield, and is pushed into a different suit because the battle demands it, he sacrifices his former efforts. I would completely stop logying just for this reason. It's not fair. If we can go back to the logi suit later, to get the stuff reactivated, the shoehorning for the logis wouldn't be so bad. The changes as they are laid out, sound like punishment for logis by people who just slay and don't adapt to the battlefield. Funnyly those are usually the ones who complain first when stuff isn't delivered to them by their logi peons... Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...
Stile451 Red Star. EoN. 369	Posted - 2014.11.19 16:24:00 - [235] - Quote Doshneil Antaro wrote: Although I love this idea, the bw pop is necessary. The reason it pops is as much for frame rate as well as game immersion. Ever suit picked, every equipment placed need to be well thought out and serve a purpose. Spam, switch, and forget is not a purpose, but rather abuse. Your fix would be ideal if not for the frame rate issue would still be present. I'm not sure about that. Disabling the FX for dormant equipment should give a big performance improvement. Do you lose performance when you see a mine field? If yes then dormant equipment would affect performance, if no then it will not.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5154	Posted - 2014.11.19 16:30:00 - [236] - Quote Please set Sentinel Bandwidth to Zero. Never raise it. If you can't carry equipment then you don't need bandwidth. You are a murder gorilla, not a logistical hardpoint. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Kain Spero Goonfeet 3847	Posted - 2014.11.19 16:32:00 - [237] - Quote Going through the spreadsheet I really think that all suits in a class (Logi, Assault, Scout) should have the same BW regardless of tier. Tieracide has always been a big sticking point for a lot of people myself included. No reason to go in and add more tiering. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4928	Posted - 2014.11.19 16:44:00 - [238] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: I still have five more pages of this thread to get through, but I wanted to reiterate a point that I noticed was getting looked over multiple times. Many people have incorrectly assumed that this proposal will shoe-horn people who like to use equipment into Logistic roles under the following premise: "If I die and switch to a different suit, all of my equipment is destroyed. The only way I can use equipment is to deploy it as a Logi and hide from the battle. Thus, I am forced to either pick one suit class for a whole battle. Why CCP?!" According to my understanding of the system, the statement above is false. In actuality, ifI start the match as a Logi with 24Bw (For the sake of argument) and use up all of my bandwidth to put down equipment in the order - Flux Uplink Gauged Uplink Triage Nanohive Remote explosive - then when I switch suits, my equipment will be destroyed in reverse order until I reach my new suit's bandwidth. That is to say that I would still have an active Flux and Gauged uplink on the field, but no nanohive or remote explosive. Thus, no one is being "shoe-horned" into a role. If you plan on making dynamic changes to your loadout, then plan your equipment deployment carefully. For the sake of opening more options, I could agree with a module that increases a suits Bw (up to a maximum suit value of 24) so that players who wish to sacrifice something to keep their equipment alive in a different suit would also have recourse to do so Close, but it would be the first and second pieces of equipment you placed (the Flux Uplink and Gauged Uplink) that would "POP", not the two most recently placed pieces of equipment. Think of it this way. You spawn in at the beginning of the match with a Logi suit. You get to the Large Socket and place an Uplink just outside the wall. Then you get within 40m of an Objective and you place a second Uplink. Finally you get to the Objective and place a third Uplink close by. When you die you respawn in an Assault suit with less Bandwidth. It would be that first Uplink outside of the Large Socket that would "POP", not the one you placed last by the Objective. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4930	Posted - 2014.11.19 16:58:00 - [239] - Quote Juno Tristan wrote: Scouts have a lot of advantages at the moment so I would advocate a lower bandwidth than all other suits on the condition a new scoutly uplink is created that has a low bandwidth/spawn count/scan profile/timer to establish forward positions that logis and heavies can then strengthen Bandwidth is not the way to nerf Scouts! EWar Scouts are not the problem. Plate Stacking Scouts are the ones that are impinging on the Assault and Logi roles. Having Plate reduce the Strafe speed of Light Frame suits is a better approach to balancing Scouts. Nerfing Scout Bandwidth is a direct attack on the core infiltration and insertion role of the Scout. If your team is Redlined, you don't use a Logi suit to try to get an Uplink into the middle of the map! That is the Scout's job! Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Doshneil Antaro Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 298	Posted - 2014.11.19 17:06:00 - [240] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Juno Tristan wrote: Scouts have a lot of advantages at the moment so I would advocate a lower bandwidth than all other suits on the condition a new scoutly uplink is created that has a low bandwidth/spawn count/scan profile/timer to establish forward positions that logis and heavies can then strengthen Bandwidth is not the way to nerf Scouts! EWar Scouts are not the problem. Plate Stacking Scouts are the ones that are impinging on the Assault and Logi roles. Having Plate reduce the Strafe speed of Light Frame suits is a better approach to balancing Scouts. Nerfing Scout Bandwidth is a direct attack on the core infiltration and insertion role of the Scout. If your team is Redlined, you don't use a Logi suit to try to get an Uplink into the middle of the map! That is the Scout's job! I agree Sage /thread

Jadd Hatchen KILL-EM-QUICK 646	Posted - 2014.11.19 17:08:00 - [241] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: This feature will allow proper Logistics to excel at their deployment role, while keeping Assaults & Commandos relatively useful and Scouts will be diminished in capability as they were never meant to be a king of deployables, the additional slot was added for the Cloak Field. First good on you guys for finally coming up with a solution that actually fixes a problem correctly!!! Yay! But my main point is: Ok so you finally admit it! You f'ed up when you left scouts OP with the currently layout!!!! Honesltly scouts are able to do TOO MUCH. I can understand versatility, but the more versatility should come at a COST! As they are now, a scout can fit to be a decent logi, a decent assault, a more than decent scout, etc. They have too many role-specific slots!!! Hell you removed the sidearm from some logi's to represent the COST of being a logi! But for scouts you ADDED a slot instead? How dumb is that? So the point I'm making is that Scouts should either have one less equipment slot or have no sidearm slot.. You can still fit a sidearm in a light weapon slot, but now you only get one weapon instead of two. Or better yet! Let the players decide which they prefer! On two of the races, (let's say Minmatar and Caldari) you get to have two equipment slots and no sidearm slot. But on the other two races (Amarr and Galente) you get to have the sidearm slot as well as the light weapon slot, but only one equipment slot. The specific races don't matter, but the point is that there is one too many slots on the scout suits as they are now. Please fix it!
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3951	Posted - 2014.11.19 17:10:00 - [242] - Quote Might make sense to swap the Commando and Scout BW. For Sentinels in particular, maybe give them a fixed 4 BW that doesn't rise with tier. That'd allow at most one placement to carry over for them (single droplink, single hive). Though I can relate to the sentiment of a "zero" just the force the role, I still think the fact that other roles won't have this sort of enforcement is an issue. Dren&Templar Tragedy.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4930	Posted - 2014.11.19 17:13:00 - [243] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: P.S. Was thinking about how to explain this. It's actually a 'stack' in computing lingo. Another way to remember how equipment destruction works in Rattati's proposal is FILO: First In, Last Out(i.e. the first piece of equipment you lay down will be the last one destroyed as you lay down more equipment or change suits). You got it backwards. It is not a 'stack'. Bandwidth is First in First out. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Dubya Guy Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 21	Posted - 2014.11.19 17:24:00 - [244] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: What was not made clear in the original post is that this change is intended to deal with multiple issues: 1)Decrease Equipment Spam 2)Discourage Role Switching. Increase the commitment to the role you spawn into. 3)Nerf Scouts who act as fast Logi. 4)Nerf Sentinels who try to get around their lack of an equipment slot. 5)Buff Caldari/Amarr Logi, provided they stick to their role. I can see how it might be problematic in that sticking to roles ultimately requires people to be grouped and communicating to be an effective team. The fact that heavies don't have a slot has always suggested to me that they're meant to have logistics backup for full efficacy. That people don't always play as a team and vets can one-man-army using multiple roles is sort of a separate issue. The only real issue to me is that the role exclusion is ultimately a logi-specific thing here. Going from logi to blank - you're punished with equipment lost. Go from heavy to scout, scout to assault, etc. it doesn't matter because the only real role restriction is equipment-based. I agree Zeylon Rho. If you want to buff Logi's, buff Logi's. If you want to discourage role-tourism, there are more straightforward ways that involve applying the "cost" to the player at the supply depot, rather than a "cost" to the team when some blueberry switches and randomly pops that well-placed uplink you thought your squad could use. There is little accountability in the role-switching aspect of this, and it really only encourages Logi's to persist and not other roles. There are numerous threads about problems with the supply depot. I think adding a 30 second delay to suit switching at depots, or possibly even costing a clone, would be role-neutral, player-costing alternatives that don't require a whole new game mechanic. Please, buff Logi's. But don't pretend this equipment-popping, bandwidth idea is a good way to address role-switching. FPS = First Person Support. Kills win battles but it's kinda hard to kill if you're dead and out of ammo.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4598	Posted - 2014.11.19 17:27:00 - [245] - Quote Dubya Guy wrote: Zeylon Rho wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: What was not made clear in the original post is that this change is intended to deal with multiple issues: 1)Decrease Equipment Spam 2)Discourage Role Switching. Increase the commitment to the role you spawn into. 3)Nerf Scouts who act as fast Logi. 4)Nerf Sentinels who try to get around their lack of an equipment slot. 5)Buff Caldari/Amarr Logi, provided they stick to their role. I can see how it might be problematic in that sticking to roles ultimately requires people to be grouped and communicating to be an effective team. The fact that heavies don't have a slot has always suggested to me that they're meant to have logistics backup for full efficacy. That people don't always play as a team and vets can one-man-army using multiple roles is sort of a separate issue. The only real issue to me is that the role exclusion is ultimately a logi-specific thing here. Going from logi to blank - you're punished with equipment lost. Go from heavy to scout, scout to assault, etc. it doesn't matter because the only real role restriction is equipment-based. I agree Zeylon Rho. If you want to buff Logi's, buff Logi's. If you want to discourage role-tourism, there are more straightforward ways that involve applying the "cost" to the player at the supply depot, rather than a "cost" to the team when some blueberry switches and randomly pops that well-placed uplink you thought your squad could use. There is little accountability in the role-switching aspect of this, and it really only encourages Logi's to persist and not other roles. There are numerous threads about problems with the supply depot. I think adding a 30 second delay to suit switching at depots, or possibly even costing a clone, would be role-neutral, player-costing alternatives that don't require a whole new game mechanic. Please, buff Logi's. But don't pretend this equipment-popping, bandwidth idea is a good way to address role-switching. There's plenty of logi-buffing discussion in Cross' thread, this is a separate but related issue. This should be seen as a 'fix' to EQ spam, particularly by non-logis, not a specific nerf to scouts or the only or even primary means by which to buff logi's. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
lee corwood Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 1056	Posted - 2014.11.19 17:31:00 - [246] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Dubya Guy wrote: Zeylon Rho wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: What was not made clear in the original post is that this change is intended to deal with multiple issues: 1)Decrease Equipment Spam 2)Discourage Role Switching. Increase the commitment to the role you spawn into. 3)Nerf Scouts who act as fast Logi. 4)Nerf Sentinels who try to get around their lack of an equipment slot. 5)Buff Caldari/Amarr Logi, provided they stick to their role. I can see how it might be problematic in that sticking to roles ultimately requires people to be grouped and communicating to be an effective team. The fact that heavies don't have a slot has always suggested to me that they're meant to have logistics backup for full efficacy. That people don't always play as a team and vets can one-man-army using multiple roles is sort of a separate issue. The only real issue to me is that the role exclusion is ultimately a logi-specific thing here. Going from logi to blank - you're punished with equipment lost. Go from heavy to scout, scout to assault, etc. it doesn't matter because the only real role restriction is equipment-based. I agree Zeylon Rho. If you want to buff Logi's, buff Logi's. If you want to discourage role-tourism, there are more straightforward ways that involve applying the "cost" to the player at the supply depot, rather than a "cost" to the team when some blueberry switches and randomly pops that well-placed uplink you thought your squad could use. There is little accountability in the role-switching aspect of this, and it really only encourages Logi's to persist and not other roles. There are numerous threads about problems with the supply depot. I think adding a 30 second delay to suit switching at depots, or possibly even costing a clone, would be role-neutral, player-costing alternatives that don't require a whole new game mechanic. Please, buff Logi's. But don't pretend this equipment-popping, bandwidth idea is a good way to address role-switching. There's plenty of logi-buffing discussion in Cross' thread, this is a separate but related issue. This should be seen as a 'fix' to EQ spam, particularly by non-logis, not a specific nerf to scouts or the only or even primary means by which to buff logi's. I agree. Keeping this thread on task for reducing EQ spam should be the center point. I've seen every suit/role imaginable spamming EQ and that's what we hope to stop. If I could team kill every bb I saw throwing down 12 nanohives around a supply depot... Knights of Ender Director Logi 4 Life \| Youtube Vids
Dubya Guy Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 21	Posted - 2014.11.19 17:47:00 - [247] - Quote lee corwood wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: There's plenty of logi-buffing discussion in Cross' thread, this is a separate but related issue. This should be seen as a 'fix' to EQ spam, particularly by non-logis, not a specific nerf to scouts or the only or even primary means by which to buff logi's. I agree. Keeping this thread on task for reducing EQ spam should be the center point. I've seen every suit/role imaginable spamming EQ and that's what we hope to stop. If I could team kill every bb I saw throwing down 12 nanohives around a supply depot... My apologies. I had no intention of moving off task. I was only responding to Cross's pointer to this thread in the referenced Logi-buff thread, and him indicating they were intricately tied together. Forget I said "Buff Logi's". Forget I suggested this is an unfair solution to "role-switching". Yes, it will limit equipment spam. Yea!! I think it carries a lot of baggage in order to do so. Boo!! I think there are better ways to limit equipment spam, but this thread is about this one idea which seems to be a done deal, so since I can't seem to get on board with it enough to debate the specific numbers, and discussing its overall shortcomings is off-task, I'll leave off. FPS = First Person Support. Kills win battles but it's kinda hard to kill if you're dead and out of ammo.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4599	Posted - 2014.11.19 17:54:00 - [248] - Quote Dubya Guy wrote: lee corwood wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: There's plenty of logi-buffing discussion in Cross' thread, this is a separate but related issue. This should be seen as a 'fix' to EQ spam, particularly by non-logis, not a specific nerf to scouts or the only or even primary means by which to buff logi's. I agree. Keeping this thread on task for reducing EQ spam should be the center point. I've seen every suit/role imaginable spamming EQ and that's what we hope to stop. If I could team kill every bb I saw throwing down 12 nanohives around a supply depot... My apologies. I had no intention of moving off task. I was only responding to Cross's pointer to this thread in the referenced Logi-buff thread, and him indicating they were intricately tied together. Forget I said "Buff Logi's". Forget I suggested this is an unfair solution to "role-switching". Yes, it will limit equipment spam. Yea!! I think it carries a lot of baggage in order to do so. Boo!! I think there are better ways to limit equipment spam, but this thread is about this one idea which seems to be a done deal, so since I can't seem to get on board with it enough to debate the specific numbers, and discussing its overall shortcomings is off-task, I'll leave off. You hardly need to to that, there are plenty of things to discuss, but specifically to your statement of "If you want to buff logi's, butf logi's", implying that is the primary goal, or that we should be doing that instead of this red herring of EQ spam is not completely on topic. Nor would discussing other ways to buff logis be, not that you did that. Ultimately, IMO, if you try to buff logis without addressing other things (such as EQ spam), the inherent irrational backlash against logi's on the forums, whether it be outdated concerns about slayer logis or misplaced blame for EQ spam, is going to hamper those efforts. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
RedPencil Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 131	Posted - 2014.11.19 17:56:00 - [249] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: This feature will allow proper Logistics to excel at their deployment role, while keeping Assaults & Commandos relatively useful and Scouts will be diminished in capability as they were never meant to be a king of deployables, the additional slot was added for the Cloak Field. First good on you guys for finally coming up with a solution that actually fixes a problem correctly!!! Yay! But my main point is: Ok so you finally admit it! You f'ed up when you left scouts OP with the currently layout!!!! Honesltly scouts are able to do TOO MUCH. I can understand versatility, but the more versatility should come at a COST! As they are now, a scout can fit to be a decent logi, a decent assault, a more than decent scout, etc. They have too many role-specific slots!!! Hell you removed the sidearm from some logi's to represent the COST of being a logi! But for scouts you ADDED a slot instead? How dumb is that? So the point I'm making is that Scouts should either have one less equipment slot or have no sidearm slot.. You can still fit a sidearm in a light weapon slot, but now you only get one weapon instead of two. Or better yet! Let the players decide which they prefer! On two of the races, (let's say Minmatar and Caldari) you get to have two equipment slots and no sidearm slot. But on the other two races (Amarr and Galente) you get to have the sidearm slot as well as the light weapon slot, but only one equipment slot. The specific races don't matter, but the point is that there is one too many slots on the scout suits as they are now. Please fix it! Once upon a time, I told CCP Rattati to remove scout's sidearm slot. He reply me with only one word " NO ". Beware Paper cut M[;..;]M
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4601	Posted - 2014.11.19 18:00:00 - [250] - Quote RedPencil wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: This feature will allow proper Logistics to excel at their deployment role, while keeping Assaults & Commandos relatively useful and Scouts will be diminished in capability as they were never meant to be a king of deployables, the additional slot was added for the Cloak Field. First good on you guys for finally coming up with a solution that actually fixes a problem correctly!!! Yay! But my main point is: Ok so you finally admit it! You f'ed up when you left scouts OP with the currently layout!!!! Honesltly scouts are able to do TOO MUCH. I can understand versatility, but the more versatility should come at a COST! As they are now, a scout can fit to be a decent logi, a decent assault, a more than decent scout, etc. They have too many role-specific slots!!! Hell you removed the sidearm from some logi's to represent the COST of being a logi! But for scouts you ADDED a slot instead? How dumb is that? So the point I'm making is that Scouts should either have one less equipment slot or have no sidearm slot.. You can still fit a sidearm in a light weapon slot, but now you only get one weapon instead of two. Or better yet! Let the players decide which they prefer! On two of the races, (let's say Minmatar and Caldari) you get to have two equipment slots and no sidearm slot. But on the other two races (Amarr and Galente) you get to have the sidearm slot as well as the light weapon slot, but only one equipment slot. The specific races don't matter, but the point is that there is one too many slots on the scout suits as they are now. Please fix it! Once upon a time, I told CCP Rattati to remove scout's sidearm slot. He reply me with only one word " NO ". Because that's not a good solution. Rather than take away the 2nd EQ slot entirely, this sorta "forces" it to be used for a cloak, as was intended. You won't be able to deploy 2 full slots worth of ADV or PRO EQ so it's not as useful for deployables. (The godfather of tactical logistics)

Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4938	Posted - 2014.11.19 18:03:00 - [251] - Quote Nothing Certain wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Can the Sentinel be given the same band width as an Assault, even though the Sentinel does not have an equipment slot? In Pub matches were no one is dropping Uplinks, I am sometimes forced to switch to another fit to place some uplinks. Once that is done I spawn in again in my preferred Sentinel fit after dying or finding a Supply Depot. If the Sentinel has no bandwidth I will be stuck playing a suit that has bandwidth in these situations, because my team needs an uplink or they will be red-lined. This is what this change is designed to prevent. I had originally thought that it was to prevent a team from having 30 Drop Uplinks deployed, rather than to prevent a team from having 3 uplinks deployed. I had thought that Logi were the cause of the Uplink Spam. However, I have learned from reading this thread that those Logi who cause Equipment Spam all switch to HMG Sentinels after they have deployed 2 or 3 Logi suits worth of equipment, which explains where all the extra HMG Sentinels came from. As a dedicated Sentinel since 1.3 I always looked at it as a sacrifice to have to spawn in a different fit to help the team when no one was placing Uplinks. Instead I learn that many people do this as an exploit. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
lee corwood Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 1057	Posted - 2014.11.19 18:04:00 - [252] - Quote Dubya Guy wrote: lee corwood wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: There's plenty of logi-buffing discussion in Cross' thread, this is a separate but related issue. This should be seen as a 'fix' to EQ spam, particularly by non-logis, not a specific nerf to scouts or the only or even primary means by which to buff logi's. I agree. Keeping this thread on task for reducing EQ spam should be the center point. I've seen every suit/role imaginable spamming EQ and that's what we hope to stop. If I could team kill every bb I saw throwing down 12 nanohives around a supply depot... My apologies. I had no intention of moving off task. I was only responding to Cross's pointer to this thread in the referenced Logi-buff thread, and him indicating they were intricately tied together. Forget I said "Buff Logi's". Forget I suggested this is an unfair solution to "role-switching". Yes, it will limit equipment spam. Yea!! I think it carries a lot of baggage in order to do so. Boo!! I think there are better ways to limit equipment spam, but this thread is about this one idea which seems to be a done deal, so since I can't seem to get on board with it enough to debate the specific numbers, and discussing its overall shortcomings is off-task, I'll leave off. No worries, Dubya. I also think this needs a good bit of review. As a logi 98% of the time, I don't see this affecting my role as much. But a buff isn't going to help. We take this casual conversations (not you specifically, just the forum in general) of how it would 'devastate' a role and 'at least' give role A a buff to this or that or that role will be 'destroyed'. This kind of meddling before it can be actually implemented is what causes such sway to begin with. I think its been stated that logi should excel as the EQ of all the roles, so that's already great. My understanding that the BW we have dictates what we can lay down, not tied down to suit or numbers. This is also great. I start every match as a scout laying down 3 uplinks and then switch to logi support with nanohives. I only drop a nanohive when my squad asks for one. Therefore, the impact here isn't keeping me specifically from doing my support role. -However, I do see that having a great impact on the Scout role (no more fast logis). -I see this impacting my AV Sentinel suit depending on how limited the BW is -I definitely see this impacting my Proxie suit given how many I need to deal with a tank And in general, I disagree with someone's statement on not increasing BW benefits to prototype tiers. I think that would actually encourage more people to run them and boost the economy. We claim its unfair to newer players, and as a long time advocate for newer players, I don't think you should penalized veteran specialization either. Protostomping already exists. EQ Spamming already exists. The proposed changes would actually limit what they do already today. There are many other areas where NPE could be improved. And if this BW does get implemented, a BW meter should be mandatory. Doing that math midst combat would not be fun. I realize I run a logistics class but we don't have slots for calculators. Knights of Ender Director Logi 4 Life \| Youtube Vids
RedPencil Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 132	Posted - 2014.11.19 18:08:00 - [253] - Quote Meee One wrote: "REs should have lower BW to accomidate scouts". -No,scouts aren't supposed to be the equipment king,logistics is. -And it should be assaults not scouts doing AV. Prove me wrong - reduce RE bw isn't equal increase scout bw. Scout still has the lowest ability to deploy equipment. - AV is for every suit. AV RE is suit scout because it require low profile and ability to run fast. - I dare you run assault to stack 3 RE on a proper tank without him notice and run away. Beware Paper cut M[;..;]M
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4601	Posted - 2014.11.19 18:11:00 - [254] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Nothing Certain wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Can the Sentinel be given the same band width as an Assault, even though the Sentinel does not have an equipment slot? In Pub matches were no one is dropping Uplinks, I am sometimes forced to switch to another fit to place some uplinks. Once that is done I spawn in again in my preferred Sentinel fit after dying or finding a Supply Depot. If the Sentinel has no bandwidth I will be stuck playing a suit that has bandwidth in these situations, because my team needs an uplink or they will be red-lined. This is what this change is designed to prevent. I had thought that Logi were the cause of the Uplink Spam. However, I have learned from reading this thread that those "Logi"* who cause Equipment Spam all switch to HMG Sentinels after they have deployed 2 or 3 Logi suits worth of equipment, which explains where all the extra HMG Sentinels came from. As a dedicated Sentinel since 1.3 I always looked at it as a sacrifice to have to spawn in a different fit to help the team when no one was placing Uplinks. Instead I learn that many people do this as an exploit. Oh Fox, you poor idealist. Always trying to find the best in people. That is a tall order in New Eden. Probably illegal in some sectors as well. (*Also, FTFY) (The godfather of tactical logistics)
RedPencil Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 133	Posted - 2014.11.19 18:25:00 - [255] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: RedPencil wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: So the point I'm making is that Scouts should either have one less equipment slot or have no sidearm slot.. You can still fit a sidearm in a light weapon slot, but now you only get one weapon instead of two. Or better yet! Let the players decide which they prefer! On two of the races, (let's say Minmatar and Caldari) you get to have two equipment slots and no sidearm slot. But on the other two races (Amarr and Galente) you get to have the sidearm slot as well as the light weapon slot, but only one equipment slot. The specific races don't matter, but the point is that there is one too many slots on the scout suits as they are now. Please fix it! Once upon a time, I told CCP Rattati to remove scout's sidearm slot. He reply me with only one word " NO ". Because that's not a good solution. Rather than take away the 2nd EQ slot entirely, this sorta "forces" it to be used for a cloak, as was intended. You won't be able to deploy 2 full slots worth of ADV or PRO EQ so it's not as useful for deployables. Why did you say "not a good solution" when you are the one who brought up "Scouts should either have one less equipment slot or have no sidearm slot." ? I don't object against low bw on scout, but I urge CCP to reconsider RE and Prox bw. The ability to stick 3 - 4 RE on a tank should be fare on every suit. Beware Paper cut M[;..;]M
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4943	Posted - 2014.11.19 18:30:00 - [256] - Quote Meee One wrote: "REs should have lower BW to accomidate scouts". -No,scouts aren't supposed to be the equipment king,logistics is. -And it should be assaults not scouts doing AV. Medium frame suits don't run fast enough to get in close to Tanks without being slaughtered. They can do it sometimes, but not as reliably as Scouts can. Placing REs on Tanks is really not an Assault or Logi role. Meee One wrote: Regardless of any excuses,only equipment spammers will try to find ways to wriggle free of this new idea. If you want to run equipment,you're going to have to run logistics i'm afraid. By saying this you are simply dismissing every concern about Bandwidth as just Spammer QQ. If we assume out of hand that there are no problems at all with the Bandwidth proposal, and it requires no critical examination or discussion, then what was the point of Rattati posting it on the Forums in the first place? Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 417	Posted - 2014.11.19 18:32:00 - [257] - Quote I made this vid to clarify what i mean by heavily restricting players to one suit. These are all the fits i have unlocked and i'll use several combinations of suit types as the match goes on. Using one role and only role IMO, is being one - dimensional. There's nothing wrong in specializing, as long as your happy doing one thing day in day out who am I to judge? Run the same fit over and over again if thats your thing bro. Being required to run only one type of suit fit to use your own equipment that you invested your own SP and isk into once this goes live, anyway you cut it, it sucks. Having to convince someone to only run links or else, sucks. The idea of relying on blueberries to not change suits and kill links, man if all i ever ran was heavy that would suck. Your gonna have a lot of fun slow jogging in from the redline, because I will quite happily destroy any red CRU I see on the field. Since my ADS is an uplink killer you had better glitch them into a wall or something. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4602	Posted - 2014.11.19 18:36:00 - [258] - Quote RedPencil wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: RedPencil wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: So the point I'm making is that Scouts should either have one less equipment slot or have no sidearm slot.. You can still fit a sidearm in a light weapon slot, but now you only get one weapon instead of two. Or better yet! Let the players decide which they prefer! On two of the races, (let's say Minmatar and Caldari) you get to have two equipment slots and no sidearm slot. But on the other two races (Amarr and Galente) you get to have the sidearm slot as well as the light weapon slot, but only one equipment slot. The specific races don't matter, but the point is that there is one too many slots on the scout suits as they are now. Please fix it! Once upon a time, I told CCP Rattati to remove scout's sidearm slot. He reply me with only one word " NO ". Because that's not a good solution. Rather than take away the 2nd EQ slot entirely, this sorta "forces" it to be used for a cloak, as was intended. You won't be able to deploy 2 full slots worth of ADV or PRO EQ so it's not as useful for deployables. Why did you say "not a good solution" when you are the one who brought up "Scouts should either have one less equipment slot or have no sidearm slot." ? I don't object against low bw on scout, but I urge CCP to reconsider RE and Prox bw. The ability to stick 3 - 4 RE on a tank should be fare on every suit. I can assure you I never brought the sidearm idea up as a preferred solution or in a serious manner. Also: It would be easy to miss given all the replies but I already mentioned I am down with reducing the BW cost of RE's. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4943	Posted - 2014.11.19 18:47:00 - [259] - Quote shaman oga wrote: I initially thought that it was a good idea, but now i realize this will create more problems than opportunities. With current design you can't: Place a hive for the ammo and swap to heavy. Attach 3 RE (minimun required to destroy a tank) without a PRO scout. Place a decent proxy mine field and change suit, even if it only takes 2 BW, you have to place at least 8-10 mines to create a DECENT mine field, but then even if you swap to another logi, you can't drop nothing or it will make disappear your mine field. This thing of BW can be good for EVE drones in a point and click game, but it should not be in a FPS where you need to take fast decision in a short time, it will add a stress element to a game which is already stressful by nature. [1] Place a hive for the ammo and swap to heavy. Apparently that is part of the intent. It makes Sentinel's more dependent on Logi. It also kills the solo Sniper Sentinel, which I do not think is a bad thing. (That is a Commando role.) Sniper Sentinels and Forge Gun Sentinels will need a Logi friend to set them up with Nano Hive and Uplink, which encourages cooperative game play. [2] Attach 3 RE (minimun required to destroy a tank) without a PRO scout. I fully agree that a Standard Scout needs to be able to place 3 Remote Explosives. I favor giving the same BW to Standard, Advanced, and Proto suits. Logit should have BW increase tied to their Logi suit skill, not the suit tier. [3] Place a decent proxy mine field and change suit, even if it only takes 2 BW, you have to place at least 8-10 mines to create a DECENT mine field, but then even if you swap to another logi, you can't drop nothing or it will make disappear your mine field. Proxy mines need to be buffed so that one type of Proxy mine is enough to kill something, without having to lay out multiple types. They said that Proxy mines would be looked at. [4] This thing of BW can be good for EVE drones in a point and click game, but it should not be in a FPS where you need to take fast decision in a short time, it will add a stress element to a game which is already stressful by nature. A proper UI that gives you the information you need will allow it to work fine in an FPS. Cat Merc explains how it should work here. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
DarK KNigHT007 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2014.11.19 18:54:00 - [260] - Quote Well........It takes out the flexibility u have been offered in this game.Now this makes heavies rely almost 90% on team members as they cant place an uplink on a desired place . So if u have a team of noobs then the match is dead. Now all u can do is either play a slayer logi(difficult to) or dont use logi suits at all....bcoz if u use once in a game then to make advantage of it u shud wear it throught the game irrespective of circumstances..

dreth longbow Bank of DUST 514 55	Posted - 2014.11.19 18:54:00 - [261] - Quote I did not read all the responses, so forgive me if this was talked about. This may be and issue, but not as much as other stuff that should be fixed first. The list is to long for this area but you know what I mean. OP why wast time and resources on this? It is not that big of a problem, it has its up and downs and yes the more noobs that come in cause the issues, but as past history has shown it resolves itself. Remember this went away and has just now come back as an irritant. The proposal is flawed. Basically the op wants to punish those who use links/nano especially if the switch suits, but does not do the same for all other classes. Keeping the theme lets prevent those start with proto and then when the team is losing want to switch to basic from doing that or in other words prevent other classes from switching up or down in suits or even between clases like scout then logi then assualt. No one wants that, but some want to limit what equipment I can run or how much I can drop? What about how many times I can call in a lav or tank? Instead of the op's proposal their should be a more elegant solution or one that is not as restrictive. 1) teak software and pay more for band width and problem goes away (this has been discussed in great detail in the past and has the community support by CCP does not want to spend money on buying band width) 2) allow equipment to stay even when switch to other suit and allow oh say (3 eqpmnt slots x2 units each x2 different logi suits =) 12 combo's of links/nanos to be deployed and stay in game through switching suits. 3) do not allow drops to be put within x meters of another drop (average room size/4) 4) nano's should be 1/4 distance because fighters need to resupply Just some thoughts
RedPencil Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 134	Posted - 2014.11.19 19:00:00 - [262] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: I can assure you I never brought the sidearm idea up as a preferred solution or in a serious manner. Also: It would be easy to miss given all the replies but I already mentioned I am down with reducing the BW cost of RE's. Forgive me, I already cross the sentient out. Beware Paper cut M[;..;]M
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4943	Posted - 2014.11.19 19:08:00 - [263] - Quote Doshneil Antaro wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Cross Atu wrote: With respect Fox being stuck playing a suit with bandwidth if you want to have equipment deployed at any given level is exactly the point. With respect Cross, when I made my earlier posts I was working off the assumption that the sole purpose of this change was to reduce Equipment Spam by not allowing Logi to drop more than one suitGÇÖs worth of equipment, and to prevent Logi from switching to other classes while maintaining a full Logi load out of deployed equipment. What was not made clear in the original post is that this change is intended to deal with multiple issues: 1)Decrease Equipment Spam 2)Discourage Role Switching. Increase the commitment to the role you spawn into. 3)Nerf Scouts who act as fast Logi. 4)Nerf Sentinels who try to get around their lack of an equipment slot. 5)Buff Caldari/Amarr Logi, provided they stick to their role. It was not clear initially in RattatiGÇÖs post that discouraging Role Switching was an intended consequence of the introduction of Bandwidth. In a way this will help new players who only have the skill points to specialize in one role, as it will be easier for them to compete against Vets who have mastered multiple roles if the game discourages role switching during matches. It will be an adjustment, but I can accept the Sentinel not having any Bandwidth. What I still have a concern with: I am concerned about the Bandwidth nerf to Scouts. First, I think that Scouts are out of Balance because they can be made to be too robust without major drawbacks, and because the Assault suit, which is supposed to act as the Counter to Scouts, does not have the tools to counter Scouts. Second, I fell these Bandwidth changes are trying to nerf some of the ScoutGÇÖs Core Role, which is operating and insertion behind enemy lines, and CQC AV work. Placing Drop Uplinks behind enemy lines is part of the ScoutGÇÖs Core Role! Placing Remote Explosives on tanks is one of the ScoutGÇÖs Core Roles. (Before sticky Remotes, the Remotes were placed on the road and the Scout hid and activated the Remotes when the tank rolled past, to begin their ambush.) Scouts also have to operate independently. While an Assault suit can rely on equipment provided by other members of their squad, a Scout operates independently much of the time. Having two slots gives a Scout more resources to work with, having the Bandwidth of a suit with only one equipment slot would give a Scout the equipment abilities of one half of two Assault suits. (2/1=1) I think that is reasonable. Having the Band width of a suit with only one equipment slot would also define the difference between the Scout and the Logi. A logi can deploy all their equipment at the same time, while a Scout would have to choose between one type at full deployment capacity, or two different types of equipment at half deployment capacity. Nerfing the Scout to have less than a single equipment slot suit is unwarranted. It is not an appropriate way to nerf Scouts. The difference between Scouts and Logi, besides Logi being able to deploy more equipment, is that Scouts are supposed to be more fragile than Logi and not appropriate for use on the front line in head to head combat situations. The fact is that Scouts are not as Fragile as they are supposed to be. Or more accurately, Armour Plate stacking Scouts have more survivability than Logi, and have therefore supplanted Logi in the Logi role on the front lines. Having Armour Plate reduce strafe speed is the type of nerf we need to balance Scouts, not limiting their Bandwidth! And to be clear, I donGÇÖt play Scout. (I would like to, but I suck at it for many reasons.) So I am looking at this from a wider game perspective. First off scouts "ScoutGÇÖs Core Role" is not nor ever intended to be AV. This was just a mere side effect of them getting the extra equipment slot. They got this slot so they could fit a cloak, place an uplink, or whip out the scanner to light up the area for the squad. Then they also got all the ewar as well and their passive scans made the active scanner pointless for a scout to carry. edit with the recent/soon cloak fixes will see less desirability of the cloak. I do agree with everything else you posted and really agree with plates reducing strafe speed is needed as a small step to unf*****g the battlefield balance. Strafing across the field needs serious work period. Scout speed tanking should be viable but this matrix bullet dodging and hopping above a grenade/MD rounds needs to be brought down some. When I last ran a Tank Hunting Scout with RE, AV Grenade, and Swarm Launcher the Scout only had 1 equipment slot. So no, Scout AV did not start with the introduction of the second Equipment Slot. I still think that low HP scouts should be able to speed tank effectively, as if they make a mistake they die instantly. That is why I like having a Strafe penalty attached to Armor Plate modules rather than the Scout suit. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Dusters Blog Galactic News Network 764	Posted - 2014.11.19 19:09:00 - [264] - Quote anything that reduces equip spam (specifically drop uplinks) will only increase the quality of the game. that it helps framerate as well is just a cherry on top. The PS2 Whiteboard Project https://docs.google.com/document/d/14yCg0oUUyqJUTCSzIRx4z_dhS1aXHbubI0Hb3H6x5Is/edit
Dubya Guy Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 21	Posted - 2014.11.19 19:12:00 - [265] - Quote dreth longbow wrote: I did not read all the responses, so forgive me if this was talked about. This may be and issue, but not as much as other stuff that should be fixed first. The list is to long for this area but you know what I mean. OP why wast time and resources on this? It is not that big of a problem, it has its up and downs and yes the more noobs that come in cause the issues, but as past history has shown it resolves itself. Remember this went away and has just now come back as an irritant. The proposal is flawed. Basically the op wants to punish those who use links/nano especially if the switch suits, but does not do the same for all other classes. Keeping the theme lets prevent those start with proto and then when the team is losing want to switch to basic from doing that or in other words prevent other classes from switching up or down in suits or even between clases like scout then logi then assualt. No one wants that, but some want to limit what equipment I can run or how much I can drop? What about how many times I can call in a lav or tank? Instead of the op's proposal their should be a more elegant solution or one that is not as restrictive. 1) teak software and pay more for band width and problem goes away (this has been discussed in great detail in the past and has the community support by CCP does not want to spend money on buying band width) 2) allow equipment to stay even when switch to other suit and allow oh say (3 eqpmnt slots x2 units each x2 different logi suits =) 12 combo's of links/nanos to be deployed and stay in game through switching suits. 3) do not allow drops to be put within x meters of another drop (average room size/4) 4) nano's should be 1/4 distance because fighters need to resupply Just some thoughts I like most of your thoughts, particularly #3. Unfortunately, John Demonsbane says that the Devs told him that it was not easy to do. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2438711#post2438711 I know, it seems like it could be combined with code from flux grenades, but... Anyway this thread is not about alternatives to Equipment Bandwidth as a means to solve problems. It is about the specifics of Equipment Bandwidth. Equipment Bandwidth is going to happen. It has been determined to be an ingenious idea. We should stay on task and only talk about how much bandwidth different suits will get. FPS = First Person Support. Kills win battles but it's kinda hard to kill if you're dead and out of ammo.
I-Shayz-I I----------I 5116	Posted - 2014.11.19 19:21:00 - [266] - Quote https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_ytb13XWe3th0KUWFdNJD5NS_0Pqv5U8acUmhPxh6Ss/edit?usp=sharing I'll just leave this here. I propose a few extra changes to equipment and isk prices for equipment. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4944	Posted - 2014.11.19 19:43:00 - [267] - Quote lee corwood wrote: And in general, I disagree with someone's statement on not increasing BW benefits to prototype tiers. I think that would actually encourage more people to run them and boost the economy. We claim its unfair to newer players, and as a long time advocate for newer players, I don't think you should penalized veteran specialization either. Protostomping already exists. EQ Spamming already exists. The proposed changes would actually limit what they do already today. There are many other areas where NPE could be improved. I have played DUST since Closed Beta and I have only used Proto suits in about 6 matches in all that time. Why? Because I canGÇÖt afford to. Thankfully I donGÇÖt normally play Logi, because if BW is tied to suit tier, then only rich players will be affective at playing logi. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4945	Posted - 2014.11.19 19:49:00 - [268] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Nothing Certain wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Can the Sentinel be given the same band width as an Assault, even though the Sentinel does not have an equipment slot? In Pub matches were no one is dropping Uplinks, I am sometimes forced to switch to another fit to place some uplinks. Once that is done I spawn in again in my preferred Sentinel fit after dying or finding a Supply Depot. If the Sentinel has no bandwidth I will be stuck playing a suit that has bandwidth in these situations, because my team needs an uplink or they will be red-lined. This is what this change is designed to prevent. I had thought that Logi were the cause of the Uplink Spam. However, I have learned from reading this thread that those "Logi"* who cause Equipment Spam all switch to HMG Sentinels after they have deployed 2 or 3 Logi suits worth of equipment, which explains where all the extra HMG Sentinels came from. As a dedicated Sentinel since 1.3 I always looked at it as a sacrifice to have to spawn in a different fit to help the team when no one was placing Uplinks. Instead I learn that many people do this as an exploit. Oh Fox, you poor idealist. Always trying to find the best in people. That is a tall order in New Eden. Probably illegal in some sectors as well. (*Also, FTFY) I know... I shouldnGÇÖt base my assumptions about other people on my own motivations. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Xocoyol Zaraoul Superior Genetics 2756	Posted - 2014.11.19 20:05:00 - [269] - Quote I have to say I'm unhappy with this, as I regularly deposit the maxmimum of all 15 Proximity Explosives, and your spreadsheet says the max deployed under proto logi is 8.... Just... Really unhappy with this eliminating minefields. It seems like because everyone is abusing nanos and uplinks, I'm having my proximity REs being hit with a nerf bat. I *need* to spam them, and they don't reduce framerate like nano/links do as the bloody things are both silent and static. "You see those red dots over there? Go and shoot them until you see a +50 on the screen" - Arkena Wyrnspire
Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1010	Posted - 2014.11.19 20:15:00 - [270] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Doshneil Antaro wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Cross Atu wrote: With respect Fox being stuck playing a suit with bandwidth if you want to have equipment deployed at any given level is exactly the point. With respect Cross, when I made my earlier posts I was working off the assumption that the sole purpose of this change was to reduce Equipment Spam by not allowing Logi to drop more than one suitGÇÖs worth of equipment, and to prevent Logi from switching to other classes while maintaining a full Logi load out of deployed equipment. What was not made clear in the original post is that this change is intended to deal with multiple issues: 1)Decrease Equipment Spam 2)Discourage Role Switching. Increase the commitment to the role you spawn into. 3)Nerf Scouts who act as fast Logi. 4)Nerf Sentinels who try to get around their lack of an equipment slot. 5)Buff Caldari/Amarr Logi, provided they stick to their role. It was not clear initially in RattatiGÇÖs post that discouraging Role Switching was an intended consequence of the introduction of Bandwidth. In a way this will help new players who only have the skill points to specialize in one role, as it will be easier for them to compete against Vets who have mastered multiple roles if the game discourages role switching during matches. It will be an adjustment, but I can accept the Sentinel not having any Bandwidth. What I still have a concern with: I am concerned about the Bandwidth nerf to Scouts. First, I think that Scouts are out of Balance because they can be made to be too robust without major drawbacks, and because the Assault suit, which is supposed to act as the Counter to Scouts, does not have the tools to counter Scouts. Second, I fell these Bandwidth changes are trying to nerf some of the ScoutGÇÖs Core Role, which is operating and insertion behind enemy lines, and CQC AV work. Placing Drop Uplinks behind enemy lines is part of the ScoutGÇÖs Core Role! Placing Remote Explosives on tanks is one of the ScoutGÇÖs Core Roles. (Before sticky Remotes, the Remotes were placed on the road and the Scout hid and activated the Remotes when the tank rolled past, to begin their ambush.) Scouts also have to operate independently. While an Assault suit can rely on equipment provided by other members of their squad, a Scout operates independently much of the time. Having two slots gives a Scout more resources to work with, having the Bandwidth of a suit with only one equipment slot would give a Scout the equipment abilities of one half of two Assault suits. (2/1=1) I think that is reasonable. Having the Band width of a suit with only one equipment slot would also define the difference between the Scout and the Logi. A logi can deploy all their equipment at the same time, while a Scout would have to choose between one type at full deployment capacity, or two different types of equipment at half deployment capacity. Nerfing the Scout to have less than a single equipment slot suit is unwarranted. It is not an appropriate way to nerf Scouts. The difference between Scouts and Logi, besides Logi being able to deploy more equipment, is that Scouts are supposed to be more fragile than Logi and not appropriate for use on the front line in head to head combat situations. The fact is that Scouts are not as Fragile as they are supposed to be. Or more accurately, Armour Plate stacking Scouts have more survivability than Logi, and have therefore supplanted Logi in the Logi role on the front lines. Having Armour Plate reduce strafe speed is the type of nerf we need to balance Scouts, not limiting their Bandwidth! And to be clear, I donGÇÖt play Scout. (I would like to, but I suck at it for many reasons.) So I am looking at this from a wider game perspective. First off scouts "ScoutGÇÖs Core Role" is not nor ever intended to be AV. This was just a mere side effect of them getting the extra equipment slot. They got this slot so they could fit a cloak, place an uplink, or whip out the scanner to light up the area for the squad. Then they also got all the ewar as well and their passive scans made the active scanner pointless for a scout to carry. edit with the recent/soon cloak fixes will see less desirability of the cloak. I do agree with everything else you posted and really agree with plates reducing strafe speed is needed as a small step to unf*****g the battlefield balance. Strafing across the field needs serious work period. Scout speed tanking should be viable but this matrix bullet dodging and hopping above a grenade/MD rounds needs to be brought down some. When I last ran a Tank Hunting Scout with RE, AV Grenade, and Swarm Launcher the Scout only had 1 equipment slot. So no, Scout AV did not start with the introduction of the second Equipment Slot. I still think that low HP scouts should be able to speed tank effectively, as if they make a mistake they die instantly. That is why I like having a Strafe penalty attached to Armor Plate modules rather than the Scout suit. Back when AV was broken beyond imagining and the only thing that could destroy a tank we're RE's I made a standard suit with a RR (to stop infantry from murdering me from far away before i reached the tank - pre cloak) and RE's and some AV grenades. I still lost a LOT of these fits (hence the standard suit usage). You definitely need to ensure a scout of any level can deploy 3 RE's in order to break a tank. I think i support all levels of suits having the same BW. Regarding the amount of BW on each type of suit, I think it should be the same for the Scout/Assault/Commando with only Logi's having more. I believe limiting by equipment type instead of BW would have been a simpler fix, but whatever. i.e. max 3 uplinks deployed at once regardless of type. Overlord of Broman

Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1316	Posted - 2014.11.19 20:29:00 - [271] - Quote RedPencil wrote: Prove me wrong - reduce RE bw isn't equal increase scout bw. Scout still has the lowest ability to deploy equipment. - AV is for every suit. AV RE is suit scout because it require low profile and ability to run fast. - I dare you run assault to stack 3 RE on a proper tank without him notice and run away. -reduced BW is like a fitting reduction to equipment,even though you have less you can do more with it. -umm no,REs were meant to be used as traps not makeshift AV grenades -assaults speed tanked can do it,plus vehicle users deserve the right to try to save their investment,also re-read my second reason Fox Gaden wrote: Meee One wrote: "REs should have lower BW to accomidate scouts". -No,scouts aren't supposed to be the equipment king,logistics is. -And it should be assaults not scouts doing AV. 1.Medium frame suits don't run fast enough to get in close to Tanks without being slaughtered. They can do it sometimes, but not as reliably as Scouts can. Placing REs on Tanks is really not an Assault or Logi role. Meee One wrote: Regardless of any excuses,only equipment spammers will try to find ways to wriggle free of this new idea. If you want to run equipment,you're going to have to run logistics i'm afraid. 2.By saying this you are simply dismissing every concern about Bandwidth as just Spammer QQ. If we assume out of hand that there are no problems at all with the Bandwidth proposal, and it requires no critical examination or discussion, then what was the point of Rattati posting it on the Forums in the first place? 1.REs are supposed to be traps not makeshift AV grenades. 2.To judge wether players would be honest about equipment spam,and obviously they aren't. Coming up with every reason in the book as to why their particular suit should keep spammed eq. DarK KNigHT007 wrote: Well........It takes out the flexibility u have been offered in this game.Now this makes heavies rely almost 90% on team members as they cant place an uplink on a desired place . So if u have a team of noobs then the match is dead. Now all u can do is either play a slayer logi(difficult to) or dont use logi suits at all....bcoz if u use once in a game then to make advantage of it u shud wear it throught the game irrespective of circumstances.. "this will force players to use teamwork" And that's bad how? Logis that are true logis won't be effected by this,eq spammers however will be castrated. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1316	Posted - 2014.11.19 20:35:00 - [272] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: I still think that low HP scouts should be able to speed tank effectively, as if they make a mistake they die instantly. That is why I like having a Strafe penalty attached to Armor Plate modules rather than the Scout suit. Then scouts would spam ferros because they have no penalty. Logis have between 240-300 eHP,and the fastest logi strafes at 4.5m (the one that required to be closest to combat ironically). This would only gimp logistics even further,as well as any armor tanked suit (assaults,i feel i have to mention assaults because if i don't it'll happen.) Penalties should be light suit exclusive. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 499	Posted - 2014.11.19 20:37:00 - [273] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear Players Based on a lot of feedback, both from CPM, Community and previous CCP designs, one of the things we are able to conjure up is the much wanted Equipment Bandwidth feature. * We want to fix Equipment spam to increase framerate * We want Quality over Quantity Equipment gameplay * We want a solid Logistics progression at using Equipment * We want Logistics to excel at using Equipment, and other roles less so * We want Equipment diversity Now, we want to get your feedback as early as possible, so chime in. But here are some clarifications of intent. Equipment Limit The main design is primarily based off of Drones in EVE. Every dropsuit has a built-in Equipment Controller, which has a certain Bandwidth Capacity (in MHz). That Controller Bandwidth is used to manage deployed Equipment through constant signaling. Each piece of deployed Equipment has a different Bandwidth Cost (or Usage). Note that all Equipment still has the same current limitations of GÇPdeployed per typeGÇ£. Obviously Logistics are made for this purpose, and some Logistics more than others. In the case of deployed Equipment Bandwidth exceeding the Players current Bandwidth, deployed Equipment self-destructs instantly, in the sequence it was deployed. In the attached spreadsheet, we show an example of such a scenario. This feature will allow proper Logistics to excel at their deployment role, while keeping Assaults & Commandos relatively useful and Scouts will be diminished in capability as they were never meant to be a king of deployables, the additional slot was added for the Cloak Field. Quality over Quantity We want players to use the best Equipment they have at their disposal. ThatGÇÖs why Bandwidth will not increase with item tiers. We also have the capability and intent to reduce Scan Profile with tiers, so Advanced and Complex gear is not as easy to scan. However, this also allows us to increase the carried amount, for rapid redeployment. Spawn first Nanohive and Drop Uplink at point A, redeploy to Objective B, spawn second Nanohive and Drop Uplink, and so on. Stay out of trouble and you wonGÇÖt need to switch or restock for quite some time. Progression Logistics will have the, by far, the highest Bandwidth, with Caldari and Amarr the highest. We may need to reword or change some of their role bonuses. Bandwith progression will follow the Equipment slot progression so a Logistics player can almost always use their full allotment of deployable Equipment. Logistics vs other Dropsuits One of the key aspects of this proposal is that all Equipment is tied to the active Dropsuit of the Player. Switch from a suit with a high Bandwidth to another suit with lower Bandwidth, and the signal is lost. This means that starting as a Logistics dropsuit, throw down as much cheap Equipment as possible, then switch into another Logistics dropsuit at a Supply Depot, repeat and then finally switch into another role, Sentinel, Scout, Assault or Commando, will not be possible anymore. Diversity We can now influence players to use more Proximity Mines for example, as Scan Profile will allow them to be hidden from low Precision Vehicle Players, as well as having a lower Bandwidth Cost, allowing more at the same time, without allowing more Uplinks and Nanohives. Extra damage wouldnGÇÖt hurt either. Now, to the numbers found in this spreadsheet. Please remember that these numbers are placeholders, and are definitely up for debate so form your arguments for changes into clear and concise statements. Please read the Example as well, it should explain the whole design clearly. Again, your feedback and input is appreciated. -1 I, as an open-beta logistics vet, am completely and totally opposed to this idea. This is a real bad idea which doesn't do enough to limit equipment use by other frames outside of logistics while simultaneously re-invents slayerlogis. There are many other, simpler ways to address the game issues that this idea is aimed at, most of which will significantly lower learning curves, allow for more tactical battlefields and do not limit player creativity as much. This idea I have trouble imagining as being born by the dev who's given the game much of it's needed recent balance and can only imagine it was designed by from the perspective of a players scorn versus from a players interest in balance. Rattati, that this idea has progressed this far leads me to conclude your effectiveness has begun to wane overall and perhaps a return to your cubicle in the pre-FanFest 2014 marketing department is in order. Sorry, bro. Thank You for you Hard Work, I do truly appreciate the effort. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Mister Goo Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 65	Posted - 2014.11.19 20:40:00 - [274] - Quote Now that your doing something with equipment fix the Remote Explosives. They are equipment, not ammunition, stop letting them be resupplied at a nano hive. If they use the ones they are carrying then they need go to a supply depot and change suits. Currently why stock grenades when you can throw RE's and do twice the damage and still restock in the nano hive. Stop the Flying Frisbees of death Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
S-PANZA Expert Intervention Caldari State 94	Posted - 2014.11.19 21:02:00 - [275] - Quote Solution to BW restrictions: - Run speed scout and drop some drop uplinks + RE's. - Switch to either logi slayer, logi AV, logi logi or logi sniper. - Shelf all other suits until next tree shake-up.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 500	Posted - 2014.11.19 21:05:00 - [276] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: If we keep theorycrafting based on mushy, half finished systems we might as well start philosophizing on religion or economics. ^ THIS Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 500	Posted - 2014.11.19 21:06:00 - [277] - Quote S-PANZA wrote: Solution to BW restrictions: - Run speed scout and drop some drop uplinks + RE's. - Switch to either logi slayer, logi AV, logi logi or logi sniper. - Shelf all other suits until next tree shake-up. ^ THIS EDIT: not edited, changes redacted. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
S-PANZA Expert Intervention Caldari State 94	Posted - 2014.11.19 21:42:00 - [278] - Quote S-PANZA wrote: Solution to BW restrictions: - Run speed scout and drop some drop uplinks + RE's. - Switch to either logi slayer, logi AV, logi logi or logi sniper. - Shelf all other suits until next tree shake-up. Another option is to substitute the first step (speed scout making drops) to logi spamming equipment....then switching to the other logi suits.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 500	Posted - 2014.11.19 21:54:00 - [279] - Quote Meee One wrote: Rattati i hope you are paying attention to the underlying reason(s) players are against this. Players are willing to lose 7 uplinks to run 1 with a sent. Players want BW reduced on REs and proxies for scouts. Can you guess why players are so willing to run less equipment? Survival. Read through several posts and multiple imply being 'trapped' in a logistics suit AKA a death trap. If logistics had some advantage in terms of survival (like speed) then fewer players would be against this. They even say 'switch to support other suits'. Consider that for a second,switching from the master support suit (logistics) because it can't support as well as another can. There are many underlying problems with the suit itself. #1 being survivability Btw,240 eHP and slower than an assault with 400eHP base is stupidly broken.(for example) Or 240 eHP on a medium frame. (example #2) Players can see logistics is a walking coffin,gimped beyond belief 'because it has to be'. Imagine if scouts were slowed to sent speed,this is how logistics appears to anyone with a brain. That is why players don't like the BW idea,and will (attempt to) fight it tooth and nail. And TBH i don't blame them. ^THIS Excellent way of putting this, Meeee. I often don't agree with you, not even about this BW topic (!) but the point you're making here really hits it out of the park. There is other work to be done which should be PRIORITIZED FOR COMPLETION BEFORE completely rewriting the mechanics behind equipment. ESPECIALLY since other options would glean better results at addressing spam without introducing multiple new opportunities for imbalances and exploits. BALANCE WHAT WE HAVE. THEN ADD. "Problems never solved, just rearranged" Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 500	Posted - 2014.11.19 21:54:00 - [280] - Quote S-PANZA wrote: S-PANZA wrote: Solution to BW restrictions: - Run speed scout and drop some drop uplinks + RE's. - Switch to either logi slayer, logi AV, logi logi or logi sniper. - Shelf all other suits until next tree shake-up. Another option is to substitute the first step (speed scout making drops) to logi spamming equipment....then switching to slayer logi suits. FTFY Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4610	Posted - 2014.11.19 22:24:00 - [281] - Quote Uhh... are you guys on crack? Have fun running a good old fashioned "slayer logi" with the current state of logi suits compared to the rest. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP 1148	Posted - 2014.11.19 22:25:00 - [282] - Quote I am liking the idea but I would propose a tier based eq bandwidth use amount. Militia having the highest bandwidth and proto having the lowest bandwidth. Basically this would allow for slightly more spam if using all higher tier equipment as well as less nerf to the guys spending 100s of ks on logi suits to help the team. If you are fielding a 200-300k logi suit various times to assist the team you should be able to really get the best rewards. Only having a couple of proto hives and a couple of proto links is bad for the team and bad for the guy risking more on one suit than everyone else is risking in the whole match.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 500	Posted - 2014.11.19 22:52:00 - [283] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: This game is about adjustment to the battlefield, making logis not able to adapt is a bad move, because all other roles can switch without consequences. ^THIS And I've read the responses to this sentiment and want to emphasize something so the non-logis recognize it: The work of Logistics is exactly that, Logistics. "Support" is only a part of it. Sometimes, yeah, its following around a heavy or five and keeping them repped and resupplied. Others its moving (or trying to) with Assaults or scouts running scans. Sometimes tho, it is reinforcing areas as fallbacks OR creating advanced fortifications for striking groups to deploy from. At any point in any of this the occasion will often arise where the best thing for the group is for the Logi to flip frames into something actually combat-appropriate (since Logis now and by all available proposals are absolutely not and won't be) to address an issue or 16. These changes, as proposed will render the work the Logi has done up to that point largely null and void. The responses so far have centered on the idea that, 'Well if I go from HMG to guard a corridor to scout to run invisi-shotgun I don't get to keep my Heavy HP' etc. Which on the surface is true but really isn't applicable as an arguement because when you used that HMG in the corridor you defended that corridor ie. used the tools to do the work and afterwards benefitted from the results, a clear corridor freeing you to then go scoutie shotgun, kills made in your pocket and corridor defense complete. YOU GET TO KEEP WHAT YOU MADE. Logis will be denied this, this tactical flexibility which makes our battlefields as engaging as they are, as well as limiting FC ability to predictively and preemptively create staging area to fall to or from! The effect, while worst to Logis, ripples through all tactical predictively reasoned equipment use from ANY frame. Whats the point in a scout, any scout, placing a link somewhere to be used as needed if it'll pop the first time he's forced into pull a different fit to address an issue? Or an Assault? I, as much as anyone, despise equipment spamming and see scout frames as imbalanced versus the rest of the field. But changing DUST from Chess into Checkers is NOT the solution ! If anything, this idea dumbs down the tactical side of the gameplay, taking much of the overall field strategy elements ala Command and Conquer out in favor of the remaining low-denominator squad interplay ala SOCOM campaign mission aspects. The game becomes very 2D like this, and fundamentally less engaging, appealing or interesting. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 500	Posted - 2014.11.19 22:56:00 - [284] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: S-PANZA wrote: S-PANZA wrote: Solution to BW restrictions: - Run speed scout and drop some drop uplinks + RE's. - Switch to either logi slayer, logi AV, logi logi or logi sniper. - Shelf all other suits until next tree shake-up. Another option is to substitute the first step (speed scout making drops) to logi spamming equipment....then switching to slayer logi suits. FTFY Uhh... are you guys on crack? Have fun running a good old fashioned "slayer logi" with the current state of logi suits compared to the rest. No, I'm not on crack. I am High On Frustration with this proposal however, and if my lack of running full proto in pubs OR running slayerlogi TGS builds has taught me anything in the last 2 years its that IF I do, I can be reeeaal good at it. This **** nerfs us even more dude. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 500	Posted - 2014.11.19 23:00:00 - [285] - Quote There are other, better, solutions for the problems this is meant to address. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4613	Posted - 2014.11.19 23:07:00 - [286] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: S-PANZA wrote: Another option is to substitute the first step (speed scout making drops) to logi spamming equipment....then switching to slayer logi suits. FTFY Uhh... are you guys on crack? Have fun running a good old fashioned "slayer logi" with the current state of logi suits compared to the rest. No, I'm not on crack. I am High On Frustration with this proposal however, and if my lack of running full proto in pubs OR running slayerlogi TGS builds has taught me anything in the last 2 years its that IF I do, I can be reeeaal good at it. This ** nerfs us even more dude. But you just said.... el OPERATOR wrote:** the best thing for the group is for the Logi to flip frames into something actually combat-appropriate (since Logis now and by all available proposals are absolutely not and won't be) ??? (The godfather of tactical logistics)
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4617	Posted - 2014.11.19 23:12:00 - [287] - Quote Any why does the equipment pop if the scout has to switch fits, unless its to a sentinel? Or anyone else to switch fits for that matter? Everyone else can have some equipment out. It's not like the uplink pops every time you switch suits no matter what, or even when you switch to a suit that doesn't have it equipped. It only pops if you run out of BW. Scout drops uplink.... uh oh, I need to use a commando for AV or something... the uplink stays exactly where it is. Unless you want to drop a bunch of triage hives to stand on, in which case you have to think about if you really need all of them at once. Logi drops all 8 pieces of EQ. Switches to different logi suit with scanner/rep tool/needle. EQ stays right where it is. I don't see where the "zero" flexibility comes from. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 500	Posted - 2014.11.19 23:17:00 - [288] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: This feature will allow proper Logistics to excel at their deployment role, while keeping Assaults & Commandos relatively useful and Scouts will be diminished in capability as they were never meant to be a king of deployables, the additional slot was added for the Cloak Field. First good on you guys for finally coming up with a solution that actually fixes a problem correctly!!! Yay! But my main point is: Ok so you finally admit it! You f'ed up when you left scouts OP with the currently layout!!!! Honesltly scouts are able to do TOO MUCH. I can understand versatility, but the more versatility should come at a COST! As they are now, a scout can fit to be a decent logi, a decent assault, a more than decent scout, etc. They have too many role-specific slots!!! Hell you removed the sidearm from some logi's to represent the COST of being a logi! But for scouts you ADDED a slot instead? How dumb is that? So the point I'm making is that Scouts should either have one less equipment slot or have no sidearm slot.. You can still fit a sidearm in a light weapon slot, but now you only get one weapon instead of two. Or better yet! Let the players decide which they prefer! On two of the races, (let's say Minmatar and Caldari) you get to have two equipment slots and no sidearm slot. But on the other two races (Amarr and Galente) you get to have the sidearm slot as well as the light weapon slot, but only one equipment slot. The specific races don't matter, but the point is that there is one too many slots on the scout suits as they are now. Please fix it! ^THIS 100k times over! First things first! Fix the broken, then balance the fixed, then add in the new. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Jadd Hatchen KILL-EM-QUICK 647	Posted - 2014.11.19 23:19:00 - [289] - Quote RedPencil wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: This feature will allow proper Logistics to excel at their deployment role, while keeping Assaults & Commandos relatively useful and Scouts will be diminished in capability as they were never meant to be a king of deployables, the additional slot was added for the Cloak Field. First good on you guys for finally coming up with a solution that actually fixes a problem correctly!!! Yay! But my main point is: Ok so you finally admit it! You f'ed up when you left scouts OP with the currently layout!!!! Honesltly scouts are able to do TOO MUCH. I can understand versatility, but the more versatility should come at a COST! As they are now, a scout can fit to be a decent logi, a decent assault, a more than decent scout, etc. They have too many role-specific slots!!! Hell you removed the sidearm from some logi's to represent the COST of being a logi! But for scouts you ADDED a slot instead? How dumb is that? So the point I'm making is that Scouts should either have one less equipment slot or have no sidearm slot.. You can still fit a sidearm in a light weapon slot, but now you only get one weapon instead of two. Or better yet! Let the players decide which they prefer! On two of the races, (let's say Minmatar and Caldari) you get to have two equipment slots and no sidearm slot. But on the other two races (Amarr and Galente) you get to have the sidearm slot as well as the light weapon slot, but only one equipment slot. The specific races don't matter, but the point is that there is one too many slots on the scout suits as they are now. Please fix it! Once upon a time, I told CCP Rattati to remove scout's sidearm slot. He reply me with only one word " NO ". Well CCP Rattati I'm calling you out!!! Please explain yourself! Why is it fair for a logistics dropsuit to have no sidearm slot and it's somehow fair for a scout to have the second most equipment slots AND still have the sidearm slot?!? How is this fair by any stretch of game theory and mechanics? I demand you explain you and your teams' logic on this one or forever be shamed and owe me a drink at next year's EVE Vegas event. 8)
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 500	Posted - 2014.11.19 23:22:00 - [290] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Uhh... are you guys on crack? Have fun running a good old fashioned "slayer logi" with the current state of logi suits compared to the rest. No, I'm not on crack. I am High On Frustration with this proposal however, and if my lack of running full proto in pubs OR running slayerlogi TGS builds has taught me anything in the last 2 years its that IF I do, I can be reeeaal good at it. This **** nerfs us even more dude. But you just said.... [quote=el OPERATOR]the best thing for the group is for the Logi to flip frames into something actually combat-appropriate (since Logis now and by all available proposals are absolutely not and won't be) ??? Ahh, but that flip isn't into a slayerlogi, its into another combat frame. What will happen tho will be that the flip IS into a slayerlogi. Which is NOT how I prefer to spend my time. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

Jadd Hatchen KILL-EM-QUICK 647	Posted - 2014.11.19 23:24:00 - [291] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: RedPencil wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: This feature will allow proper Logistics to excel at their deployment role, while keeping Assaults & Commandos relatively useful and Scouts will be diminished in capability as they were never meant to be a king of deployables, the additional slot was added for the Cloak Field. First good on you guys for finally coming up with a solution that actually fixes a problem correctly!!! Yay! But my main point is: Ok so you finally admit it! You f'ed up when you left scouts OP with the currently layout!!!! Honesltly scouts are able to do TOO MUCH. I can understand versatility, but the more versatility should come at a COST! As they are now, a scout can fit to be a decent logi, a decent assault, a more than decent scout, etc. They have too many role-specific slots!!! Hell you removed the sidearm from some logi's to represent the COST of being a logi! But for scouts you ADDED a slot instead? How dumb is that? So the point I'm making is that Scouts should either have one less equipment slot or have no sidearm slot.. You can still fit a sidearm in a light weapon slot, but now you only get one weapon instead of two. Or better yet! Let the players decide which they prefer! On two of the races, (let's say Minmatar and Caldari) you get to have two equipment slots and no sidearm slot. But on the other two races (Amarr and Galente) you get to have the sidearm slot as well as the light weapon slot, but only one equipment slot. The specific races don't matter, but the point is that there is one too many slots on the scout suits as they are now. Please fix it! Once upon a time, I told CCP Rattati to remove scout's sidearm slot. He reply me with only one word " NO ". Because that's not a good solution. Rather than take away the 2nd EQ slot entirely, this sorta "forces" it to be used for a cloak, as was intended. You won't be able to deploy 2 full slots worth of ADV or PRO EQ so it's not as useful for deployables. But there are valid cases for having a scout that can sneak (ie cloak) and still deploy RE's. This would require 2 EQ slots, but that sort of play should come at a cost like loosing the sidearm slot. That's why I suggested that having a sidearm slot should get rid of the second EQ slot on 2 of the races' scout dropsuits and vice versa on the other 2 races' scout dropsuits. Kinda like they did with the logistics dropsuits where the ones with the sidearm still on them, have one less EQ slot (3 insted of 4) and the ones that don't have a sidearm slot have all four EQ slots. This is the best of both worlds then. Players can pick and choose which style of play they want to skill into and build upon and balance is maintained in either case.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 500	Posted - 2014.11.19 23:27:00 - [292] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: RedPencil wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: This feature will allow proper Logistics to excel at their deployment role, while keeping Assaults & Commandos relatively useful and Scouts will be diminished in capability as they were never meant to be a king of deployables, the additional slot was added for the Cloak Field. First good on you guys for finally coming up with a solution that actually fixes a problem correctly!!! Yay! But my main point is: Ok so you finally admit it! You f'ed up when you left scouts OP with the currently layout!!!! Honesltly scouts are able to do TOO MUCH. I can understand versatility, but the more versatility should come at a COST! As they are now, a scout can fit to be a decent logi, a decent assault, a more than decent scout, etc. They have too many role-specific slots!!! Hell you removed the sidearm from some logi's to represent the COST of being a logi! But for scouts you ADDED a slot instead? How dumb is that? So the point I'm making is that Scouts should either have one less equipment slot or have no sidearm slot.. You can still fit a sidearm in a light weapon slot, but now you only get one weapon instead of two. Or better yet! Let the players decide which they prefer! On two of the races, (let's say Minmatar and Caldari) you get to have two equipment slots and no sidearm slot. But on the other two races (Amarr and Galente) you get to have the sidearm slot as well as the light weapon slot, but only one equipment slot. The specific races don't matter, but the point is that there is one too many slots on the scout suits as they are now. Please fix it! Once upon a time, I told CCP Rattati to remove scout's sidearm slot. He reply me with only one word " NO ". Well CCP Rattati I'm calling you out!!! Please explain yourself! Why is it fair for a logistics dropsuit to have no sidearm slot and it's somehow fair for a scout to have the second most equipment slots AND still have the sidearm slot?!? How is this fair by any stretch of game theory and mechanics? I demand you explain you and your teams' logic on this one or forever be shamed and owe me a drink at next year's EVE Vegas event. 8) It isn't fair. But BFD about fair or not fair, IMHO. It isn't balanced. And THAT is a major issue. Unfortunately, its an issue that instead of having just been addressed from the outset instead has been essentially ignored but for the slightest sort of peripheral adjustments at the expense of the greater game and its gameplay as a whole. Which is where the start and stop of my problem with it is. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Jadd Hatchen KILL-EM-QUICK 647	Posted - 2014.11.19 23:30:00 - [293] - Quote So the whole thing in this thread about people swapping roles after deploying equipment got me to thinking... If they make it so that the bandwidth of the currently equipped dropsuit is used for the max deployables possible, how will they actually get that code to work? I mean currently they can't even get the Amarr Logistics Dropsuit bonus to work right so how is CCP gonna get this change to even reliably work?!?!?!?!?! What am I talking about? Right now an Amarr Logi suit is supposed to decrease deployment time on uplinks that they deploy. However if they swap suits, then that bonus goes away. Ok that part works well and good... But if you die and come back in the same suit, your bonuses are STILL GONE!!!!! So what do I foresee happening? I foresee a world with deployable bandwidth where a logi suit deploys its maximum bandwidth of equipment, dies and then comes back into game with the same suit and all of its extra bandwidth of previously deployed goodies ALL GONE!!! Because before CCP can even do anything like this they need to fix the code that is already broken for this aspect of play!!!!!
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2195	Posted - 2014.11.19 23:33:00 - [294] - Quote Here's a suggestion. Let's suppose a given logi have a bandwidth of 100Mbits. Nanohives take up 10Mbits each, and uplinks take up 15Mbits each. Why not 1. Remove the hard cap on deployed equipment (ie: you can theoretically deploy an infinite number of links and hives) 2. Vastly increase the amount of hives and links carried. Randomly choosing 20 links and 20 hives to perform this exercise. Number can be raised or lowered. This allows me to pick and choose how to deploy my links and hives. LEt's run through some possible combinations I can deploy. Remember, I have 100Mbits of bandwidth. 1st example: I deploy 6 uplinks (15Mbits each) which eats up 90Mbits total, and 1 hive (10Mbits each) to fill out my total bandwidth. 2nd: I deploy 4 links (60Mbits total) and 4 hives (40Mbits) to fill out my bandwidth. 3rd: 2 links (30Mbits) and 7 hives (70Mbits) to fill out my bandwidth. In essence, I can deploy as much equipment as my bandwidth allows, and I get to choose how to fill up that bandwidth. Whether I deploy a bunch up hives, a bunch of links, or any combination of these, my only limiting factor should be my bandwidth and the number I currently am carrying (which again, would in this model be vastly increased.) Have links and hives refill at supply depots, and now I as a logi can more easily adapt to the battlefield, by not having multiple hard limits on what I can bring to the fight. Now, I can spam links easier, but if I switch suits to one of a lower bandwidth, all those links go pop. If I decide to toss out hives, then my links start popping in the order I deployed them (1st link deployed pops 1st, etc.) meaning there is a hard limit on the amount of support one logi can bring. This has multiple effects. 1. While not directly reducing spam, it means that in order to spam a logi must stay in his suit, meaning one less HMG in the fight. This punishes "tourist logis) who only use the logi suits to spam equipment then pull out their slayer suit. Now they must stay in a logi to keep their equipment out. 2. It gives logis more tactical flexibility, which makes staying in a logi suit more desirable. Now, I can spam links to get my team dug in and set, then pull out my hives and toss down a bunch of hives up to my bandwidth limit (which pops my links as I deploy hives) and can then redeploy links if we start losing our ground (which pops the hives as I deploy links) all without switching suits. Now I can remain a logi suit and not worry so much about fitting suits with only links and suits with only hives. Now I can carry both, plus a needle and rep tool, and not need to run to a supply depot to constantly switch to whatever needs to be deployed. 3. It limits spam by limiting how much a single CHARACTER can deploy, regardless of how much deployables he brings. It doesn't matter if I fill all my equipment slots with 100 links, if my bandwidth limits me to 6 links, all I can have out is 6 links. Carrying all those links only means I have more spares than someone who carries a variety of equipment. This not only limits spam, but also makes it worthwhile to stay logi, since I don't have to be near a supply depot at all times to refill my hives/links by switching out. By carrying 20 of each, and having bandwidth as my hard cap, I can now place down whatever is needed at the moment, and then easily switch to the other when needed, while having other equipment besides. My idea stops tourist logis, buffs dedicated logis, and forces logis to stay logi in order to keep their equipment alive, which means one less heavy or scout in the fight. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Imp Smash molon labe. General Tso's Alliance 405	Posted - 2014.11.19 23:34:00 - [295] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Imp Smash wrote: I like the idea a lot -- just lookin at the numbers: Say you have a BW of 32 (for some Pro logis). That means about 8 pieces of equipment (extremely simplified). Is that what ya'll envision in terms of quantity? Seems just a tad high to me -- but I'm not a logi so I really don't know. In an average match, if you include uplinks (usually 4, up to 6, esp. if no-one else is placing them), nanohives (2-4, pretty disposable, I'd likely pop those all the time) and RE's (3) it's not in any way unusual for me to have that much out. To keep the objectives in managable striking distance on a 5 point map you need a minimum of 3 uplinks, and that's if they are very well and centrally positioned, with none as fallback points. Under the premise that as an Amarr logi it's my job to keep the map under control like this, 8 is pretty reasonable, though I'm not that fond of having to run proto all the time to do it. It's expensive enough as it is being a logi.... Well that's the thing -- you do this currently. And currently we have equipment spam which will require an entire new mechanic introduced to combat. Ergo -- doing this is bad. You probably shouldn't have 4 to 6 uplinks. You probably shouldn't have 2-4 nanohives. Probably shouldn't have 3 REs. Assaults have an equipment slot. Commandos have an equipment slot. Scouts have TWO! So have them share the load with nanohives and uplinks. Squad up with people in an organized manner. Defend your uplinks. Stop RE frisbee'ing. Don't throw out all your deployables RIGHT away. Drop a nanohive. When it pops drop another. You don't HAVE to carpet bomb them so that ammo is pretty much a non issue. Supply depots moving up in value to be similar to a CRU would be cool. Like I said -- 8 seems like a lot o.O It would seem to me this equipment limiting will only be a good thing as we will see less heavy spam, more tactical engagement/organization, and less resource eating spam.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4621	Posted - 2014.11.19 23:36:00 - [296] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: So the whole thing in this thread about people swapping roles after deploying equipment got me to thinking... If they make it so that the bandwidth of the currently equipped dropsuit is used for the max deployables possible, how will they actually get that code to work? I mean currently they can't even get the Amarr Logistics Dropsuit bonus to work right so how is CCP gonna get this change to even reliably work?!?!?!?!?! What am I talking about? Right now an Amarr Logi suit is supposed to decrease deployment time on uplinks that they deploy. However if they swap suits, then that bonus goes away. Ok that part works well and good... But if you die and come back in the same suit, your bonuses are STILL GONE!!!!! So what do I foresee happening? I foresee a world with deployable bandwidth where a logi suit deploys its maximum bandwidth of equipment, dies and then comes back into game with the same suit and all of its extra bandwidth of previously deployed goodies ALL GONE!!! Because before CCP can even do anything like this they need to fix the code that is already broken for this aspect of play!!!!! It comes back once you are back on the field, but unfortunately, yes, it's usually not possible for you to take advantage of your own bonus when respawning. No question that's lame, but allegedly a lot of that code got fixed with 1.9 (believe it when we see it, I know).\ The mechanic should be that the bonus disappears (or BW changes) only when you spawn in a new suit, not on death. The assumption, again, for what it's worth, is that this will be the case. Otherwise, yes, chaos and ragequtting will be the order of the day. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4621	Posted - 2014.11.19 23:39:00 - [297] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Imp Smash wrote: I like the idea a lot -- just lookin at the numbers: Say you have a BW of 32 (for some Pro logis). That means about 8 pieces of equipment (extremely simplified). Is that what ya'll envision in terms of quantity? Seems just a tad high to me -- but I'm not a logi so I really don't know. In an average match, if you include uplinks (usually 4, up to 6, esp. if no-one else is placing them), nanohives (2-4, pretty disposable, I'd likely pop those all the time) and RE's (3) it's not in any way unusual for me to have that much out. To keep the objectives in managable striking distance on a 5 point map you need a minimum of 3 uplinks, and that's if they are very well and centrally positioned, with none as fallback points. Under the premise that as an Amarr logi it's my job to keep the map under control like this, 8 is pretty reasonable, though I'm not that fond of having to run proto all the time to do it. It's expensive enough as it is being a logi.... Well that's the thing -- you do this currently. And currently we have equipment spam which will require an entire new mechanic introduced to combat. Ergo -- doing this is bad. You probably shouldn't have 4 to 6 uplinks. You probably shouldn't have 2-4 nanohives. Probably shouldn't have 3 REs. Assaults have an equipment slot. Commandos have an equipment slot. Scouts have TWO! So have them share the load with nanohives and uplinks. Squad up with people in an organized manner. Defend your uplinks. Stop RE frisbee'ing. Don't throw out all your deployables RIGHT away. Drop a nanohive. When it pops drop another. You don't HAVE to carpet bomb them so that ammo is pretty much a non issue. Supply depots moving up in value to be similar to a CRU would be cool. Like I said -- 8 seems like a lot o.O It would seem to me this equipment limiting will only be a good thing as we will see less heavy spam, more tactical engagement/organization, and less resource eating spam. 8 is not a lot only because I am an Amarr logi and that's my role. I've been doing this since beta. I didn't suddenly become the source of spam. Spam occurs because currently it's everyones role. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Imp Smash molon labe. General Tso's Alliance 405	Posted - 2014.11.19 23:50:00 - [298] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: 8 is not a lot only because I am an Amarr logi and that's my role. I've been doing this since beta. I didn't suddenly become the source of massive carpet-bombing spam. Spam occurs because currently it's everyones role. (wasn't done editing my post :P) But that's a fair point too. The fact everyone can drop a ton of equipment is also a huge issue. So what would you say -- as a logi you think you need a fair chunk of bandwidth. But Assaults, scouts, and commandos should only have enough to drop 1 piece of gear about? Am I wrong thinking 1 logi should not be able to set up coverage for a 5 point map alone? Or did I misunderstand your post. Honestly the idea of an assault, scout, or commando being able to have only 1 piece of gear (or 2/3 if they are explosive in nature) doesn't bother me as an assault. Nor would the idea of a logi going up in equipment to compensate that limit bother me much. I'm just not quite sure what would be optimum while not 'overly easy to break with tons of stuff that the enemy can't reasonably clear out thereby reducing tactics.'
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3552	Posted - 2014.11.19 23:57:00 - [299] - Quote I am absolutely loving this idea. A very elegant way of dealing with the spam situation. However I would say that 1 or 2 of the numbers need tweaking. Scouts: They should only drop one compliments worth of equipment at PRO level. STD: 4 ADV:6 PRO:8 (ADV, has no effect unless you introduce a passive skill, hint hint) Nanohives: Triage Hives should have a bandwidth cost of 6 in order to reduce their spam further. Repair Hives (A+T) should have a bandwith cost of 8, this adds another level of depth to hive choice. In addition it reduces Ant's nesting considerably. Ant's nesting is the act of filling a room with triage hives, logis with tools and scanners and sentinels with the maximum achieable tank. Uplinks bandwidth cost should be inversely proportional to their spawn modifier, with ones with penalties taking 3BW and one's with bonuses taking 5-6BW. Other than that seems pretty good, once again a very elegant solution. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
S-PANZA Expert Intervention Caldari State 94	Posted - 2014.11.19 23:59:00 - [300] - Quote Scouts having a second EQ slot isnt creating equipment spam. Logi suits fitted for the purpose of spamming equipment are the main source of the spam.

RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 694	Posted - 2014.11.20 00:09:00 - [301] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: There's plenty of logi-buffing discussion in Cross' thread, this is a separate but related issue. This should be seen as a 'fix' to EQ spam, particularly by non-logis, not a specific nerf to scouts or the only or even primary means by which to buff logi's. Well said. There are side effects, but let us focus on the goal of fix itself. There are discussions going to fix the other issues, but I am pleased to see so many hashing out the ramifications of such a change. I support this change. I do believe that some values for EQ BW use need adusting. But I am still on unsure about the scouts having too much bandwidth that I am not ready to make an adjustment there yet. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower Trust CROSS
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4632	Posted - 2014.11.20 00:18:00 - [302] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: 8 is not a lot only because I am an Amarr logi and that's my role. I've been doing this since beta. I didn't suddenly become the source of massive carpet-bombing spam. Spam occurs because currently it's everyones role. (wasn't done editing my post :P) But that's a fair point too. The fact everyone can drop a ton of equipment is also a huge issue. So what would you say -- as a logi you think you need a fair chunk of bandwidth. But Assaults, scouts, and commandos should only have enough to drop 1 piece of gear about? Am I wrong thinking 1 logi should not be able to set up coverage for a 5 point map alone? Or did I misunderstand your post. Honestly the idea of an assault, scout, or commando being able to have only 1 piece of gear (or 2/3 if they are explosive in nature) doesn't bother me as an assault. Nor would the idea of a logi going up in equipment to compensate that limit bother me much. I'm just not quite sure what would be optimum while not 'overly easy to break with tons of stuff that the enemy can't reasonably clear out thereby reducing tactics.' To your first point, I don't think that and I wouldn't. As proposed, assaults /commandos can have 4 EQ at proto, scouts 3. The second: maybe I should be able to as an Amarr logi, maybe not. But if I do, that's pretty much all the EQ I can use so someone else (cal logi) will need to bring the nanohives. This will probably need tweaking and iteration, for sure, but the overall premise is quite good. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 157	Posted - 2014.11.20 00:28:00 - [303] - Quote I had to read it all twice and chill a sec to soak it up. Bottom line; Newbros can toss their only link and go medic or assault and still nab some teamspawn. The STD logi can drop his 3 links and go swap to rep, earn his sp and support his team. Guys like me with a one link scout for initial rush then assault for the fray won't be hurt. If I'm forced into my six link suit chances are I'll be stuck in it refreshing links anyway. TRUE logi's will be singing praise since now their equip will linger and not be covered by a stable link from a depot spammer. Once they drop links they obviously will change into another logi suit to continue being a logibro. No, the only people this hurts are the ones who spam equip, then swap to a suit who should not benefit from such a belch of equipment. Yes you 7 repair hives for your thale commando, yes you rooftop forge-gunner with 2 2 second links and 5 hives, yes you 15 links then off to my shotgun scout, yes you burst HMG with 7 repair hives. Make a friend Hmm well I guess the 1% is the dedicated heavy with equip skills who happens to be the only blue who even tries to swap roles and drop a flank... If someone else drops a link from yours, bite the bullet and go heavy again. If not, see my third point lol. TL,DR - Equip BW makes everything better, much like mayonnaise. "Tossin uplinks and runnin fer my life" ~ Gunny blownapart "Lets group up and push an objective" ~ No blueberry ever
Imp Smash molon labe. General Tso's Alliance 406	Posted - 2014.11.20 00:31:00 - [304] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Imp Smash wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: 8 is not a lot only because I am an Amarr logi and that's my role. I've been doing this since beta. I didn't suddenly become the source of massive carpet-bombing spam. Spam occurs because currently it's everyones role. (wasn't done editing my post :P) But that's a fair point too. The fact everyone can drop a ton of equipment is also a huge issue. So what would you say -- as a logi you think you need a fair chunk of bandwidth. But Assaults, scouts, and commandos should only have enough to drop 1 piece of gear about? Am I wrong thinking 1 logi should not be able to set up coverage for a 5 point map alone? Or did I misunderstand your post. Honestly the idea of an assault, scout, or commando being able to have only 1 piece of gear (or 2/3 if they are explosive in nature) doesn't bother me as an assault. Nor would the idea of a logi going up in equipment to compensate that limit bother me much. I'm just not quite sure what would be optimum while not 'overly easy to break with tons of stuff that the enemy can't reasonably clear out thereby reducing tactics.' To your first point, I don't think that and I wouldn't. As proposed, assaults /commandos can have 4 EQ at proto, scouts 3. The second: maybe I should be able to as an Amarr logi, maybe not. But if I do, that's pretty much all the EQ I can use so someone else (cal logi) will need to bring the nanohives. This will probably need tweaking and iteration, for sure, but the overall premise is quite good. To the first: well, I am fine (as an assault) having 4 pieces of EQ. I'm just also saying I could live off of 1 or 2. It might even be a good idea for me just to be able to deploy 2. To the second: Ah, i understand. You are saying 1 logi could cover uplinks on a 5 point map, but uplinks ONLY. That's a bit more reasonable that i had it pictured. Or 1 logi could cover the uplinks and hives for 1 or 2 points on a map. TBH though -- it stil sounds like a lot of deployables max. Maybe Commandos/assaults SHOULD only get enough bandwidth for 2 pieces of EQ and scouts 1 while Logis have 8 (or a tad more) Basically anything that forces tactical play and thinking and limits zerging/spamming.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 504	Posted - 2014.11.20 00:32:00 - [305] - Quote S-PANZA wrote: Scouts having a second EQ slot isnt creating equipment spam. Logi suits fitted for the purpose of spamming equipment are the main source of the spam. No, a playerbase hell-bent on exploiting any possible angle of advantage under the umbrella excuse of "Well, this works so it must be intended so it must be working as intended" is the source of the spam. -Limits could be placed on logi suit entry, THAT would limit spam without turning DUSTs logistical side into PaperBoy514. -Access denial for equipment deployment in certain areas, like say surrounding supply depots, THAT would limit spam without turning DUSTs flexible side into a no returns/refunds/exchanges or warranties scenario. -Equipment deployment caps based on quantities deployed could be used that wouldn't turn DUSTs tactical reinforcement side into a constant shell-game of Robbing Peter to Pay Paul. -Equipment usage timers could be enacted so if those links/hives that got placed out aren't used within an acceptable time-period their internal battery expires and they "pop", neccessitating resupply or placement without penalizing forward-thinking field strategy or current condition flexibility Players are always looking to exploit and take advantage. THAT'S why it should be Mission#1 to ensure existing game elements are balanced in and of themselves BEFORE looking to rewrite fundamentals hoping to achieve balance afterwards. To not just adds opportunity for more imbalance, worse overall gameplay and compounds the difficulty in trying to fix the elements which were flawed in the first place. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP 1149	Posted - 2014.11.20 00:34:00 - [306] - Quote We do not have enough people per match to start locking people into set roles. only 16 players means you need to be able to switch to the role that is needed. The only reason I support this is because it somewhat nerfs scout logis but it does not address the issue of scout medics who are keeping everyone alive as well as lighting up the entire enemy team. TL;DR The real issue is at best partially getting fixed so I am done even trying to give input that will never be seen. Fix scout logis before you try to nerf already ** logi suits. @CCP STOP LISTENING TO THE DAMN FORUMS. You can join any channel and there will be plenty of players there to give you issues and ideas. This would go much further as half the forum trolls dont play more than one match a week anyway. How much AUR does a dev token cost? I would be glad to pay for his 2 hours of time to sit in one of our channels with a few selected players to give an informed opinion of ** in this game.
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 694	Posted - 2014.11.20 00:39:00 - [307] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: So the whole thing in this thread about people swapping roles after deploying equipment got me to thinking... If they make it so that the bandwidth of the currently equipped dropsuit is used for the max deployables possible, how will they actually get that code to work? I mean currently they can't even get the Amarr Logistics Dropsuit bonus to work right so how is CCP gonna get this change to even reliably work?!?!?!?!?! What am I talking about? Right now an Amarr Logi suit is supposed to decrease deployment time on uplinks that they deploy. However if they swap suits, then that bonus goes away. Ok that part works well and good... But if you die and come back in the same suit, your bonuses are STILL GONE!!!!! So what do I foresee happening? I foresee a world with deployable bandwidth where a logi suit deploys its maximum bandwidth of equipment, dies and then comes back into game with the same suit and all of its extra bandwidth of previously deployed goodies ALL GONE!!! Because before CCP can even do anything like this they need to fix the code that is already broken for this aspect of play!!!!! It comes back once you are back on the field, but unfortunately, yes, it's usually not possible for you to take advantage of your own bonus when respawning. No question that's lame, but allegedly a lot of that code got fixed with 1.9 (believe it when we see it, I know).\ The mechanic should be that the bonus disappears (or BW changes) only when you spawn in a new suit, not on death. The assumption, again, for what it's worth, is that this will be the case. Otherwise, yes, chaos and ragequtting will be the order of the day. I agree. And as of two days ago when I last played my Holy Amarr Templar Logi the bonus did not work when I was waiting in the heavens to spawn anew. So, It still looks broke to me. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower Trust CROSS
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 506	Posted - 2014.11.20 00:40:00 - [308] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Any why does the equipment pop if the scout has to switch fits, unless its to a sentinel? Or anyone else to switch fits for that matter? Everyone else can have some equipment out. It's not like the uplink pops every time you switch suits no matter what, or even when you switch to a suit that doesn't have it equipped. It only pops if you run out of BW. Scout drops uplink.... uh oh, I need to use a commando for AV or something... the uplink stays exactly where it is. Unless you want to drop a bunch of triage hives to stand on, in which case you have to think about if you really need all of them at once. Logi drops all 8 pieces of EQ. Switches to different logi suit with scanner/rep tool/needle. EQ stays right where it is. I don't see where the "zero" flexibility comes from. If you pull have to pull a frame whose equipment you're going to use will exceed your BW you'll have wasted your time doing whatever you were doing with the first one. I understand, people have been and are starting to play from the I see you there and raise you here method, I'm talking about playing from the I see you there and raise you not just here to address you there but here and here and here because if you're there then you can't be here or here or here. Good chess is 7 moves ahead, for every piece. Not one move ahead for the last piece that just moved. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 506	Posted - 2014.11.20 00:42:00 - [309] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: So the whole thing in this thread about people swapping roles after deploying equipment got me to thinking... If they make it so that the bandwidth of the currently equipped dropsuit is used for the max deployables possible, how will they actually get that code to work? I mean currently they can't even get the Amarr Logistics Dropsuit bonus to work right so how is CCP gonna get this change to even reliably work?!?!?!?!?! What am I talking about? Right now an Amarr Logi suit is supposed to decrease deployment time on uplinks that they deploy. However if they swap suits, then that bonus goes away. Ok that part works well and good... But if you die and come back in the same suit, your bonuses are STILL GONE!!!!! So what do I foresee happening? I foresee a world with deployable bandwidth where a logi suit deploys its maximum bandwidth of equipment, dies and then comes back into game with the same suit and all of its extra bandwidth of previously deployed goodies ALL GONE!!! Because before CCP can even do anything like this they need to fix the code that is already broken for this aspect of play!!!!! It comes back once you are back on the field, but unfortunately, yes, it's usually not possible for you to take advantage of your own bonus when respawning. No question that's lame, but allegedly a lot of that code got fixed with 1.9 (believe it when we see it, I know).\ The mechanic should be that the bonus disappears (or BW changes) only when you spawn in a new suit, not on death. The assumption, again, for what it's worth, is that this will be the case. Otherwise, yes, chaos and ragequtting will be the order of the day. I agree. And as of two days ago when I last played my Holy Amarr Templar Logi the bonus did not work when I was waiting in the heavens to spawn anew. So, It still looks broke to me. Absolutely it is still broken. Like many things also broken or still long imbalanced. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Henchmen21 Planet Express LLC 1117	Posted - 2014.11.20 00:48:00 - [310] - Quote So any chances of Logis not dieing when sneezed at if we are to be forced to stay in the expensive suits? Your game f'ing sucks, but I'll still play it, damn you! Turns out I wont.

One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6011	Posted - 2014.11.20 00:51:00 - [311] - Quote So I read through the thread and looked at the spreadsheet, and I don't know if I fully understand how this works. REs are set at 4, with a standard scout at 4. If I lay out one RE, does that equal 4 and laying out another would negate the first? Or, because they are both the same piece of EQ, would I be able to lay out the rest? I am fine for not letting scouts infringe on Logi territory, but if I can't lay out 3 std REs on a Std or Adv scout, that is going to be a problem. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 506	Posted - 2014.11.20 00:51:00 - [312] - Quote Henchmen21 wrote: So any chances of Logis not dieing when sneezed at if we are to be forced to stay in the expensive suits? Nope, and current stat tweak projections actually have us being even easier to kill. smh Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 506	Posted - 2014.11.20 00:54:00 - [313] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: So I read through the thread and looked at the spreadsheet, and I don't know if I fully understand how this works. REs are set at 4, with a standard scout at 4. If I lay out one RE, does that equal 4 and laying out another would negate the first? Or, because they are both the same piece of EQ, would I be able to lay out the rest? I am fine for not letting scouts infringe on Logi territory, but if I can't lay out 3 std REs on a Std or Adv scout, that is going to be a problem. So go tell the Barbershop to accept a ***** nerf, an actual *** nerf, OR to quit fighting other frames getting actual ***** buffs so we can get some damm balance already AND then see wtf is up. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 2232	Posted - 2014.11.20 00:54:00 - [314] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: We do not have enough people per match to start locking people into set roles. only 16 players means you need to be able to switch to the role that is needed. The only reason I support this is because it somewhat nerfs scout logis but it does not address the issue of scout medics who are keeping everyone alive as well as lighting up the entire enemy team. TL;DR The real issue is at best partially getting fixed so I am done even trying to give input that will never be seen. Fix scout logis before you try to nerf already ** logi suits. @CCP STOP LISTENING TO THE DAMN FORUMS. You can join any channel and there will be plenty of players there to give you issues and ideas. This would go much further as half the forum trolls dont play more than one match a week anyway. How much AUR does a dev token cost? I would be glad to pay for his 2 hours of time to sit in one of our channels with a few selected players to give an informed opinion of ** in this game. lol, asking to buy a Dev so you can pump him full of trash and a biased POV Gò¡Gê¬Gò«(Gùú_Gùó)Gò¡Gê¬Gò«
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP 1150	Posted - 2014.11.20 00:56:00 - [315] - Quote There is a big problem here. Both uplinks and nanohives can have the full bandwidth use filled using only ADV variants. Currently over 50% of the proto equipment you see on the field is so that more total can be spammed. This is going to lead to a serious change in the flow of battle for the worst. If nothing else you need to significantly reduce the price of proto equipment so that people see the risk as being worth it for that little bit of help to the team.
Imp Smash molon labe. General Tso's Alliance 409	Posted - 2014.11.20 01:01:00 - [316] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: So I read through the thread and looked at the spreadsheet, and I don't know if I fully understand how this works. REs are set at 4, with a standard scout at 4. If I lay out one RE, does that equal 4 and laying out another would negate the first? Or, because they are both the same piece of EQ, would I be able to lay out the rest? I am fine for not letting scouts infringe on Logi territory, but if I can't lay out 3 std REs on a Std or Adv scout, that is going to be a problem. Every RE you place counts as 4 BW. So if you place 2 REs you have 8 spent. Say you have 16 BW. You can spend 8 more. Any spent after that will cause the first RE placed (I think) to go pop. Although come to think of it, if you could throw REs REALLy fast, you could throw 5 REs, into a crowd causing the first RE you threw to pop before the 4 second timer on REs has expired and blow them early! o.O MUAHAHAHHAHA All joking aside, why would it be a problem if scouts can only lay 1 or 2 REs?
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 506	Posted - 2014.11.20 01:02:00 - [317] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: deezy dabest wrote: We do not have enough people per match to start locking people into set roles. only 16 players means you need to be able to switch to the role that is needed. The only reason I support this is because it somewhat nerfs scout logis but it does not address the issue of scout medics who are keeping everyone alive as well as lighting up the entire enemy team. TL;DR The real issue is at best partially getting fixed so I am done even trying to give input that will never be seen. Fix scout logis before you try to nerf already ** logi suits. @CCP STOP LISTENING TO THE DAMN FORUMS. You can join any channel and there will be plenty of players there to give you issues and ideas. This would go much further as half the forum trolls dont play more than one match a week anyway. How much AUR does a dev token cost? I would be glad to pay for his 2 hours of time to sit in one of our channels with a few selected players to give an informed opinion of ** in this game. lol, asking to buy a Dev so you can pump him full of trash and a biased POV This has already happened, and the proof is in the rampant imbalances allowed to persist continually with little to no improvement that doesn't simultaneously degrade other game elements. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6011	Posted - 2014.11.20 01:02:00 - [318] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: One Eyed King wrote: So I read through the thread and looked at the spreadsheet, and I don't know if I fully understand how this works. REs are set at 4, with a standard scout at 4. If I lay out one RE, does that equal 4 and laying out another would negate the first? Or, because they are both the same piece of EQ, would I be able to lay out the rest? I am fine for not letting scouts infringe on Logi territory, but if I can't lay out 3 std REs on a Std or Adv scout, that is going to be a problem. So go tell the Barbershop to accept a ***** nerf, an actual *** nerf, OR to quit fighting other frames getting actual ***** buffs so we can get some damm balance already AND then see wtf is up. We have suggested MANY nerfs. With particular regard to EQ, I have suggested reducing all carried inventory by 1 and giving Logis the bonus of carrying one more. We have for a very long time advocated for a shift of dampening and other bonuses towards and increased speed penalties for just scouts on armor plates. That cloak range nerf (that I have loathed since it was brought up), was from the Barbershop. I suggest getting your facts straight before making claiming that the Barbershop doesn't ask for balance. In order to get balance, you have to identify the problem and directly fix the problem, not work your way around it while fixing nothing and reducing the viability of scouts roles that are not overperforming. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
Llast 326 An Arkhos 5498	Posted - 2014.11.20 01:04:00 - [319] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: One Eyed King wrote: So I read through the thread and looked at the spreadsheet, and I don't know if I fully understand how this works. REs are set at 4, with a standard scout at 4. If I lay out one RE, does that equal 4 and laying out another would negate the first? Or, because they are both the same piece of EQ, would I be able to lay out the rest? I am fine for not letting scouts infringe on Logi territory, but if I can't lay out 3 std REs on a Std or Adv scout, that is going to be a problem. Every RE you place counts as 4 BW. So if you place 2 REs you have 8 spent. Say you have 16 BW. You can spend 8 more. Any spent after that will cause the first RE placed (I think) to go pop. Although come to think of it, if you could throw REs REALLy fast, you could throw 5 REs, into a crowd causing the first RE you threw to pop before the 4 second timer on REs has expired and blow them early! o.O MUAHAHAHHAHA All joking aside, why would it be a problem if scouts can only lay 1 or 2 REs? Because it takes Three to take out a HAVGÇª And it is not an easy task to do. If a scout can only lay one or two, then it is only encouraging their use as an anti Infantry weapon. MOAR Ladders
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6011	Posted - 2014.11.20 01:07:00 - [320] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: One Eyed King wrote: So I read through the thread and looked at the spreadsheet, and I don't know if I fully understand how this works. REs are set at 4, with a standard scout at 4. If I lay out one RE, does that equal 4 and laying out another would negate the first? Or, because they are both the same piece of EQ, would I be able to lay out the rest? I am fine for not letting scouts infringe on Logi territory, but if I can't lay out 3 std REs on a Std or Adv scout, that is going to be a problem. Every RE you place counts as 4 BW. So if you place 2 REs you have 8 spent. Say you have 16 BW. You can spend 8 more. Any spent after that will cause the first RE placed (I think) to go pop. Although come to think of it, if you could throw REs REALLy fast, you could throw 5 REs, into a crowd causing the first RE you threw to pop before the 4 second timer on REs has expired and blow them early! o.O MUAHAHAHHAHA All joking aside, why would it be a problem if scouts can only lay 1 or 2 REs? Yes. 1) Tanks don't explode with 1 RE. Neither does an LAV. 2) We use them for point defense. Often cover multiple objectives with them. The catch being if I detonate upon seeing an objective hacked, I blow ALL the REs. Even if that objective were fluxed first. Its a reasonable trade off. 3) This still doesn't fix the problem of Frisbee REs. Most complaints arise from this tactic. I don't see how nerfing people who use multiple REs as intended, while not fixing the Frisbee RE thrower complaints, and reducing the AV capacity of scouts effectively nerfs Slayer Scouts. In the end, that mentality only increases the viability of that play style vs more legitimate scout roles. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 506	Posted - 2014.11.20 01:07:00 - [321] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: One Eyed King wrote: So I read through the thread and looked at the spreadsheet, and I don't know if I fully understand how this works. REs are set at 4, with a standard scout at 4. If I lay out one RE, does that equal 4 and laying out another would negate the first? Or, because they are both the same piece of EQ, would I be able to lay out the rest? I am fine for not letting scouts infringe on Logi territory, but if I can't lay out 3 std REs on a Std or Adv scout, that is going to be a problem. So go tell the Barbershop to accept a ***** nerf, an actual *** nerf, OR to quit fighting other frames getting actual ***** buffs so we can get some damm balance already AND then see wtf is up. We have suggested MANY nerfs. With particular regard to EQ, I have suggested reducing all carried inventory by 1 and giving Logis the bonus of carrying one more. We have for a very long time advocated for a shift of dampening and other bonuses towards and increased speed penalties for just scouts on armor plates. That cloak range nerf (that I have loathed since it was brought up), was from the Barbershop. I suggest getting your facts straight before making claiming that the Barbershop doesn't ask for balance. In order to get balance, you have to identify the problem and directly fix the problem, not work your way around it while fixing nothing and reducing the viability of scouts roles that are not overperforming. Funny, since all I've seen in any other thread on the topic are your reps claiming any infringement into ewar as rendering scouts "useless", red-herring evidence arguements, and protracted claims to entitlement of elements you were endowed with in 1.8 but never entitled to. EDIT: keep your " roles" but recognize your base stats AS the problem and accept direct fixes there so all this "work around while fixing nothing business" can be done. At least until the next garbo idea gets patched in. But at least infantry can be balanced in the meantime. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Llast 326 An Arkhos 5498	Posted - 2014.11.20 01:11:00 - [322] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: One Eyed King wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: One Eyed King wrote: So I read through the thread and looked at the spreadsheet, and I don't know if I fully understand how this works. REs are set at 4, with a standard scout at 4. If I lay out one RE, does that equal 4 and laying out another would negate the first? Or, because they are both the same piece of EQ, would I be able to lay out the rest? I am fine for not letting scouts infringe on Logi territory, but if I can't lay out 3 std REs on a Std or Adv scout, that is going to be a problem. So go tell the Barbershop to accept a ***** nerf, an actual *** nerf, OR to quit fighting other frames getting actual ***** buffs so we can get some damm balance already AND then see wtf is up. We have suggested MANY nerfs. With particular regard to EQ, I have suggested reducing all carried inventory by 1 and giving Logis the bonus of carrying one more. We have for a very long time advocated for a shift of dampening and other bonuses towards and increased speed penalties for just scouts on armor plates. That cloak range nerf (that I have loathed since it was brought up), was from the Barbershop. I suggest getting your facts straight before making claiming that the Barbershop doesn't ask for balance. In order to get balance, you have to identify the problem and directly fix the problem, not work your way around it while fixing nothing and reducing the viability of scouts roles that are not overperforming. Funny, since all I've seen in any other thread on the topic are your reps claiming any infringement into ewar as rendering scouts "useless", red-herring evidence arguements, and protracted claims to entitlement of elements you were endowed with in 1.8 but never entitled to. Could you take this to GD or War Room or something. Not really staying on topic here. MOAR Ladders
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 506	Posted - 2014.11.20 01:14:00 - [323] - Quote Llast 326 wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: One Eyed King wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: One Eyed King wrote: So I read through the thread and looked at the spreadsheet, and I don't know if I fully understand how this works. REs are set at 4, with a standard scout at 4. If I lay out one RE, does that equal 4 and laying out another would negate the first? Or, because they are both the same piece of EQ, would I be able to lay out the rest? I am fine for not letting scouts infringe on Logi territory, but if I can't lay out 3 std REs on a Std or Adv scout, that is going to be a problem. So go tell the Barbershop to accept a ***** nerf, an actual *** nerf, OR to quit fighting other frames getting actual *** buffs so we can get some damm balance already AND then see wtf is up. We have suggested MANY nerfs. With particular regard to EQ, I have suggested reducing all carried inventory by 1 and giving Logis the bonus of carrying one more. We have for a very long time advocated for a shift of dampening and other bonuses towards and increased speed penalties for just scouts on armor plates. That cloak range nerf (that I have loathed since it was brought up), was from the Barbershop. I suggest getting your facts straight before making claiming that the Barbershop doesn't ask for balance. In order to get balance, you have to identify the problem and directly fix the problem, not work your way around it while fixing nothing and reducing the viability of scouts roles that are not overperforming. Funny, since all I've seen in any other thread on the topic are your reps claiming any infringement into ewar as rendering scouts "useless", red-herring evidence arguements, and protracted claims to entitlement of elements you were endowed with in 1.8 but never entitled to. Could you take this to GD or War Room or something. Not really staying on topic here. Meh, it is related and is part of my feedback : FIX broken ** FIRST, then use a different idea for spam because BW as proposed will SUCK. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Imp Smash molon labe. General Tso's Alliance 410	Posted - 2014.11.20 01:20:00 - [324] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Imp Smash wrote: One Eyed King wrote: So I read through the thread and looked at the spreadsheet, and I don't know if I fully understand how this works. REs are set at 4, with a standard scout at 4. If I lay out one RE, does that equal 4 and laying out another would negate the first? Or, because they are both the same piece of EQ, would I be able to lay out the rest? I am fine for not letting scouts infringe on Logi territory, but if I can't lay out 3 std REs on a Std or Adv scout, that is going to be a problem. Every RE you place counts as 4 BW. So if you place 2 REs you have 8 spent. Say you have 16 BW. You can spend 8 more. Any spent after that will cause the first RE placed (I think) to go pop. Although come to think of it, if you could throw REs REALLy fast, you could throw 5 REs, into a crowd causing the first RE you threw to pop before the 4 second timer on REs has expired and blow them early! o.O MUAHAHAHHAHA All joking aside, why would it be a problem if scouts can only lay 1 or 2 REs? Yes. 1) Tanks don't explode with 1 RE. Neither does an LAV. 2) We use them for point defense. Often cover multiple objectives with them. The catch being if I detonate upon seeing an objective hacked, I blow ALL the REs. Even if that objective were fluxed first. Its a reasonable trade off. 3) This still doesn't fix the problem of Frisbee REs. Most complaints arise from this tactic. I don't see how nerfing people who use multiple REs as intended, while not fixing the Frisbee RE thrower complaints, and reducing the AV capacity of scouts effectively nerfs Slayer Scouts. In the end, that mentality only increases the viability of that play style vs more legitimate scout roles. Ah. Fair enough.
S-PANZA Expert Intervention Caldari State 94	Posted - 2014.11.20 01:29:00 - [325] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: S-PANZA wrote: Scouts having a second EQ slot isnt creating equipment spam. Logi suits fitted for the purpose of spamming equipment are the main source of the spam. No, a playerbase hell-bent on exploiting any possible angle of advantage under the umbrella excuse of "Well, this works so it must be intended so it must be working as intended" is the source of the spam. -Limits could be placed on logi suit entry, THAT would limit spam without turning DUSTs logistical side into PaperBoy514. -Access denial for equipment deployment in certain areas, like say surrounding supply depots, THAT would limit spam without turning DUSTs flexible side into a no returns/refunds/exchanges or warranties scenario. -Equipment deployment caps based on quantities deployed could be used that wouldn't turn DUSTs tactical reinforcement side into a constant shell-game of Robbing Peter to Pay Paul. -Equipment usage timers could be enacted so if those links/hives that got placed out aren't used within an acceptable time-period their internal battery expires and they "pop", neccessitating resupply or placement without penalizing forward-thinking field strategy or current condition flexibility Players are always looking to exploit and take advantage. THAT'S why it should be Mission#1 to ensure existing game elements are balanced in and of themselves BEFORE looking to rewrite fundamentals hoping to achieve balance afterwards. To not just adds opportunity for more imbalance, worse overall gameplay and compounds the difficulty in trying to fix the elements which were flawed in the first place. I agree.
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 2233	Posted - 2014.11.20 02:20:00 - [326] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: deezy dabest wrote: We do not have enough people per match to start locking people into set roles. only 16 players means you need to be able to switch to the role that is needed. The only reason I support this is because it somewhat nerfs scout logis but it does not address the issue of scout medics who are keeping everyone alive as well as lighting up the entire enemy team. TL;DR The real issue is at best partially getting fixed so I am done even trying to give input that will never be seen. Fix scout logis before you try to nerf already ** logi suits. @CCP STOP LISTENING TO THE DAMN FORUMS. You can join any channel and there will be plenty of players there to give you issues and ideas. This would go much further as half the forum trolls dont play more than one match a week anyway. How much AUR does a dev token cost? I would be glad to pay for his 2 hours of time to sit in one of our channels with a few selected players to give an informed opinion of ** in this game. lol, asking to buy a Dev so you can pump him full of trash and a biased POV This has already happened, and the proof is in the rampant imbalances allowed to persist continually with little to no improvement that doesn't simultaneously degrade other game elements. IRC is bad m'kay? If it has happened before why allow it to happen again? history repeating itself and whatnot.... Gò¡Gê¬Gò«(Gùú_Gùó)Gò¡Gê¬Gò«
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 547	Posted - 2014.11.20 02:26:00 - [327] - Quote I see you want that logis are acually forced to play logi and not just dump tons of stuff on the map and change to heavy/scout after they are done with it. However this eliminates the role for multi purpose players who like to switch out to different suits to adapt to the situation. For PC matches not much will change cause most players who play competetive allready carry drop uplinks on their suit. So lets look on it how your proposed change would work out if there would be 16 assaults playing in a PC match: -16 assaults, each got 16bandwith. - ishukone gauged drop uplink= 12 bandwith when all 3 uplinks are out So lets recap this: 16X3= 48 So your team could still clusterfuck the whole map with uplinks with zero to little effort. And thats what people allready do and they will continue with that no matter what. The only problem comes into play when you have scrubs in pub matches throwing tons of stuff around a supply depot. For PC matches those changes will be meaningless cause as it stands for now the #1 question when you want to play PC is "do you have proto links"? Bright is the opposite of dark! Who would have thought of that?!
GLOBAL fils'de RAGE Consolidated Dust 47	Posted - 2014.11.20 04:09:00 - [328] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear Players Based on a lot of feedback, both from CPM, Community and previous CCP designs, one of the things we are able to conjure up is the much wanted Equipment Bandwidth feature. * We want to fix Equipment spam to increase framerate * We want Quality over Quantity Equipment gameplay * We want a solid Logistics progression at using Equipment * We want Logistics to excel at using Equipment, and other roles less so * We want Equipment diversity Now, we want to get your feedback as early as possible, so chime in. But here are some clarifications of intent. Equipment Limit The main design is primarily based off of Drones in EVE. Every dropsuit has a built-in Equipment Controller, which has a certain Bandwidth Capacity (in MHz). That Controller Bandwidth is used to manage deployed Equipment through constant signaling. Each piece of deployed Equipment has a different Bandwidth Cost (or Usage). Note that all Equipment still has the same current limitations of GÇPdeployed per typeGÇ£. Obviously Logistics are made for this purpose, and some Logistics more than others. In the case of deployed Equipment Bandwidth exceeding the Players current Bandwidth, deployed Equipment self-destructs instantly, in the sequence it was deployed. In the attached spreadsheet, we show an example of such a scenario. This feature will allow proper Logistics to excel at their deployment role, while keeping Assaults & Commandos relatively useful and Scouts will be diminished in capability as they were never meant to be a king of deployables, the additional slot was added for the Cloak Field. Quality over Quantity We want players to use the best Equipment they have at their disposal. ThatGÇÖs why Bandwidth will not increase with item tiers. We also have the capability and intent to reduce Scan Profile with tiers, so Advanced and Complex gear is not as easy to scan. However, this also allows us to increase the carried amount, for rapid redeployment. Spawn first Nanohive and Drop Uplink at point A, redeploy to Objective B, spawn second Nanohive and Drop Uplink, and so on. Stay out of trouble and you wonGÇÖt need to switch or restock for quite some time. Progression Logistics will have the, by far, the highest Bandwidth, with Caldari and Amarr the highest. We may need to reword or change some of their role bonuses. Bandwith progression will follow the Equipment slot progression so a Logistics player can almost always use their full allotment of deployable Equipment. Logistics vs other Dropsuits One of the key aspects of this proposal is that all Equipment is tied to the active Dropsuit of the Player. Switch from a suit with a high Bandwidth to another suit with lower Bandwidth, and the signal is lost. This means that starting as a Logistics dropsuit, throw down as much cheap Equipment as possible, then switch into another Logistics dropsuit at a Supply Depot, repeat and then finally switch into another role, Sentinel, Scout, Assault or Commando, will not be possible anymore. Diversity We can now influence players to use more Proximity Mines for example, as Scan Profile will allow them to be hidden from low Precision Vehicle Players, as well as having a lower Bandwidth Cost, allowing more at the same time, without allowing more Uplinks and Nanohives. Extra damage wouldnGÇÖt hurt either. Now, to the numbers found in this spreadsheet. Please remember that these numbers are placeholders, and are definitely up for debate so form your arguments for changes into clear and concise statements. Please read the Example as well, it should explain the whole design clearly. Again, your feedback and input is appreciated. WOW! This one no matter how good nor how bad, implemented or received is GREAT news for DUST, because all of the strategies we have developed will have to be thrown out and re-thought! LOVE IT!
LAVALLOIS Nash QcGOLD 290	Posted - 2014.11.20 05:15:00 - [329] - Quote Almost all the gameplayI do is logi. And I think this change will impact me negatively. Please hear me out: I understand that there are concerns about "equipment spam". By this, im sure they mean when people put down 50 nanohives around a supply depot. But thats not where I get any WP from because I dont do that. Here is what I do when im playing Dust: I spawn in, I have to get out and get my uplinks out fast. If its Line Harvest, I got to go and place uplinks on the roofs so that if my team suffers a bunch of setbacks, we have a place outside of the redline that is safe to regroup and relaunch from. It allows a outmatched team to keep trying instead of being redlined and waiting out the clock. If its Fracture Road then I prefer to have one on the pipes, as well as at locations I-7 and C-7. This creates a "flexible front line" and allows a team to reground and encircle an enemy who has the objective in Domination. I need more that just 1 uplink, and I always place a Remote Mine on my uplink after I plant it as a trap to any shotgun eager scouts. Heck, sometimes when I know my team is about to be driven from an area, ill plant some nanohives with Remote Mines on top as we retreat, knowing that victorious squads get careless sometimes. Ive taken out entire squads with this kind of trickery. Im a player who plays 99% solo, i been playing for almost a year........this is going to curtail my creativity. So far ive been doing well because Ive had the flexibility to. Even LAVs, every time I use one, place some REs on the seat beside me, so if it gets captured I can get revenge on whoever killed me and stole it. Which brings me to my next point: Proximity mines: Yeah, I use them. I should mention i have mines Lv5. I can slow down, scare, or destroy heavy or light vehicles. This is part of my job. I supply the frontline. In order for me to do that, its preferable if I can prevent an enemy vehicle assault on my teams rear or flank. I cant have the same suit with 3 sets of mines that I have for my 2 sets of uplinks and 1 set of RE. I need two different suits. Its not "throwing down cheap equipment either". My proto proxymine fit costs something like 70,000SIK. And I dont always get to get away with it either. Sometimes an enemy tank or a scout with an early start catches me. Plus after all the equipment is down, then what do I do? I no longer have a role. Right now I can take a dropship, land in a hotzone, throw down some triage nanohvives, and then blast off. For player who play in squads, its more feasible to follow someone with a repair tool or revive team mates. I cant always do that. Im always a solo player. When my job is to supply, I need to be able to deliver all these resources on time without compromising the rest of my supply chain. There have been times when im the only logi on a 16 man team. Imagine how much worse it would be with limits. If you want to say that "if you deploy stuff in a logi suit you cant use anything else except a "logistics" suit," then I would accept. How about before everything gets changed, try a few small hotfixes: -Prevent equipment from being deployed within a certain radius of a supply depot. A large enough one because the supply depot provides nanites so there is no need for equipment near it. -Increase the range and radius of flux grenades so that they can be thrown into high places -Increase the hitbox vertically to 0.3M on equipment so it can be targeted easier (exception: proxy mines) -Introduce a mass driver that fires flux rounds (ok maybe thats not a hotfix) Thankyou for considering my concerns.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5164	Posted - 2014.11.20 08:54:00 - [330] - Quote Equipment spam is primarily refer to vomiting uplinks and hives all over then swapping suits to kill. If you play logi, you drop your gear then swap to your needle/rep/scanner/sparelinks fit your equipment will remain. if you go dump your wad and swap to a sentinel all your gear goes away. Thus making rooftop camping forge fatties harder. And eliminating pre staging four triage hives at a chokepoint and standing in it with an HMG. If you swap to assault you only lose most of your spam. But this change will increase the importance of having a dedicated logi in play rather than allowing sentinel players to use equipment spam as a substitution for battlefield tactics. Flying in a vehicle won't affect your equipment. You're still in a logi suit. But this is a direct nerf to tourists who want the benefits of logistics capability without actually playing the role. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.

Xatha De'Agelle Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 33	Posted - 2014.11.20 09:43:00 - [331] - Quote I love what you do Rattati! I like this with one addendum based on !!!the complaint about tank fighting further below!!!; if you do this where RE's are that difficult to deploy by scouts: Options: 1a) Set RE's at a BW of 2. It'll interrupt uplinks, but allow the allotment of RE's to be available. 1b) Make RE's tap shields and armor at the same time. 2) Make anti-tank RE's, so that one or two are devastation, but poor against infantry. 3) Provide some version of alpha damage against tanks. (Point blank anti-tank that isn't suicide-knifing with nova's) I understand that changes have a lot of other considerations, like proxies, Uplinks, and making equipment more scalable on radar... One complaint as a scout: RE's costing 4 per a unit And STD scouts being 4 BW. I thought these changes with BW were to stop equipment spam? Well, Uplinks are the spam, not RE's. I'm a hateful Anti-vehicle scout with RE's. Please don't make it this difficult for STD to take out a tank like this. Few but a cloaked scout can get close enough to tanks to RE them. It takes at least 2 Basic RE's and a flux grenade to significantly wound(read: almost destroy) a milita/basic fit tank. That entails sneaking up inside of a constantly shifting target window, throwing the RE's, fluxing the shields off and detonating. One RE is going to tickle and then they drive off(Or backup and kill you.) Taking out careless tanks with RE's will be very hard unless you are running a protoscout, which sets the curve very high against STD scouts in turn because Proto-scouts have fitting room for proto-RE's anyway of which their 12 BW can deploy them all too. They would just gun it forward or back up and gun you down if you're caught.
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 174	Posted - 2014.11.20 12:29:00 - [332] - Quote I've now had chance to look at the spreadsheet and Rattati!!! These figures are way too low! Can we halve the bw requirement or double the suit capacity and see how it goes? This seems like a massive swing in the other direction ala team scans and I think a gradual implementation might be better alternatively I would suggest a bw based on per equipment type, 2 links, 2 hives etc. I think there should also be a blueberry "here's how you drop uplinks" educational video added to the EULA agreement screen
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4642	Posted - 2014.11.20 12:32:00 - [333] - Quote LAVALLOIS Nash wrote: Almost all the gameplayI do is logi. And I think this change will impact me negatively. Please hear me out: I understand that there are concerns about "equipment spam". By this, im sure they mean when people put down 50 nanohives around a supply depot. But thats not where I get any WP from because I dont do that. Here is what I do when im playing Dust: I spawn in, I have to get out and get my uplinks out fast. If its Line Harvest, I got to go and place uplinks on the roofs so that if my team suffers a bunch of setbacks, we have a place outside of the redline that is safe to regroup and relaunch from. It allows a outmatched team to keep trying instead of being redlined and waiting out the clock. If its Fracture Road then I prefer to have one on the pipes, as well as at locations I-7 and C-7. This creates a "flexible front line" and allows a team to reground and encircle an enemy who has the objective in Domination. I need more that just 1 uplink, and I always place a Remote Mine on my uplink after I plant it as a trap to any shotgun eager scouts. Heck, sometimes when I know my team is about to be driven from an area, ill plant some nanohives with Remote Mines on top as we retreat, knowing that victorious squads get careless sometimes. Ive taken out entire squads with this kind of trickery. Im a player who plays 99% solo, i been playing for almost a year........this is going to curtail my creativity. So far ive been doing well because Ive had the flexibility to. Even LAVs, every time I use one, place some REs on the seat beside me, so if it gets captured I can get revenge on whoever killed me and stole it. Which brings me to my next point: Proximity mines: Yeah, I use them. I should mention i have mines Lv5. I can slow down, scare, or destroy heavy or light vehicles. This is part of my job. I supply the frontline. In order for me to do that, its preferable if I can prevent an enemy vehicle assault on my teams rear or flank. I cant have the same suit with 3 sets of mines that I have for my 2 sets of uplinks and 1 set of RE. I need two different suits. Its not "throwing down cheap equipment either". My proto proxymine fit costs something like 70,000SIK. And I dont always get to get away with it either. Sometimes an enemy tank or a scout with an early start catches me. Plus after all the equipment is down, then what do I do? I no longer have a role. Right now I can take a dropship, land in a hotzone, throw down some triage nanohvives, and then blast off. For player who play in squads, its more feasible to follow someone with a repair tool or revive team mates. I cant always do that. Im always a solo player. When my job is to supply, I need to be able to deliver all these resources on time without compromising the rest of my supply chain. There have been times when im the only logi on a 16 man team. Imagine how much worse it would be with limits. If you want to say that "if you deploy stuff in a logi suit you cant use anything else except a "logistics" suit," then I would accept. How about before everything gets changed, try a few small hotfixes: -Prevent equipment from being deployed within a certain radius of a supply depot. A large enough one because the supply depot provides nanites so there is no need for equipment near it. -Increase the range and radius of flux grenades so that they can be thrown into high places -Increase the hitbox vertically to 0.3M on equipment so it can be targeted easier (exception: proxy mines) -Introduce a mass driver that fires flux rounds (ok maybe thats not a hotfix) Thankyou for considering my concerns. Those types of radii would be great, but from what Rattati has told me, not something they are able to do... although that was pre-1.9, so maybe the new code allows it. If it did, yes, that would be great, too. The complaints about RE's and proxies make a lot of sense, so I would propose the folllowing change Rattati: 1) Proxy BW = 1, RE BW =2 or 2) Give scouts a 50% reduction to RE/prox BW so they get the above values (For those who hate the frisbee scout RE's, this doesn't affect it either way, that only takes 1. ) (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Happy Violentime OMFGZOMBIESRUN 896	Posted - 2014.11.20 13:34:00 - [334] - Quote Just want to add, from the perspective of someone who uses re's on a scout to take out vehicles, I generally find most HAV's need 4 re's to make certain they pop.
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 2237	Posted - 2014.11.20 13:58:00 - [335] - Quote Happy Violentime wrote: Just want to add, from the perspective of someone who uses re's on a scout to take out vehicles, I generally find most HAV's need 4 re's to make certain they pop. I too have found this, though that problem is mitigated by AV/Flux grenades as well as patience ("snipe" the HAV if you will by detonating after he's been engaged by someone else whether another HAV or an AVer) Gò¡Gê¬Gò«(Gùú_Gùó)Gò¡Gê¬Gò«
Buwaro Draemon WarRavens Capital Punishment. 443	Posted - 2014.11.20 14:06:00 - [336] - Quote All I see and hear from the whiners is that they won't be able to be in the front lines anymore because they will have to keep their equipment in tact. If that's what you are thinking then simple. Do not RUN Logi Their mentally serves to prove the only reason they specced into logi was to spam equipment and then switch to scout/sentinel/assault and slay. A dedicated a logi is a dedicated logi. He will know his place in the battlefield and he knows his place isn't in the frontlines. So it is nice to see all these fake logi's cry Been here since Mordus Private Trials Closed Beta Vet under 30 million SP ;-;
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4644	Posted - 2014.11.20 14:31:00 - [337] - Quote Juno Tristan wrote: I think there should also be a blueberry "here's how you drop uplinks" educational video added to the EULA agreement screen I don't have a recording card (might get one, we'll see) but they could always start here. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Jadd Hatchen KILL-EM-QUICK 654	Posted - 2014.11.20 15:20:00 - [338] - Quote Llast 326 wrote: Imp Smash wrote: One Eyed King wrote: So I read through the thread and looked at the spreadsheet, and I don't know if I fully understand how this works. REs are set at 4, with a standard scout at 4. If I lay out one RE, does that equal 4 and laying out another would negate the first? Or, because they are both the same piece of EQ, would I be able to lay out the rest? I am fine for not letting scouts infringe on Logi territory, but if I can't lay out 3 std REs on a Std or Adv scout, that is going to be a problem. Every RE you place counts as 4 BW. So if you place 2 REs you have 8 spent. Say you have 16 BW. You can spend 8 more. Any spent after that will cause the first RE placed (I think) to go pop. Although come to think of it, if you could throw REs REALLy fast, you could throw 5 REs, into a crowd causing the first RE you threw to pop before the 4 second timer on REs has expired and blow them early! o.O MUAHAHAHHAHA All joking aside, why would it be a problem if scouts can only lay 1 or 2 REs? Because it takes Three to take out a HAVGÇª And it is not an easy task to do. If a scout can only lay one or two, then it is only encouraging their use as an anti Infantry weapon. Just work in pairs then... job done. Seriously, how in the world is it reasonable for a freaking SOLO puny scout to take out a freaking super-powered tanks with high tech nanites and shields anyways? Instead having an assault or logi distract the tank with some swarms/plasma while a scout sneaks in to place an RE or two would be the perfect teamwork/gameplay goal IMO.
Jadd Hatchen KILL-EM-QUICK 654	Posted - 2014.11.20 15:23:00 - [339] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Imp Smash wrote: One Eyed King wrote: So I read through the thread and looked at the spreadsheet, and I don't know if I fully understand how this works. REs are set at 4, with a standard scout at 4. If I lay out one RE, does that equal 4 and laying out another would negate the first? Or, because they are both the same piece of EQ, would I be able to lay out the rest? I am fine for not letting scouts infringe on Logi territory, but if I can't lay out 3 std REs on a Std or Adv scout, that is going to be a problem. Every RE you place counts as 4 BW. So if you place 2 REs you have 8 spent. Say you have 16 BW. You can spend 8 more. Any spent after that will cause the first RE placed (I think) to go pop. Although come to think of it, if you could throw REs REALLy fast, you could throw 5 REs, into a crowd causing the first RE you threw to pop before the 4 second timer on REs has expired and blow them early! o.O MUAHAHAHHAHA All joking aside, why would it be a problem if scouts can only lay 1 or 2 REs? Yes. 1) Tanks don't explode with 1 RE. Neither does an LAV. 2) We use them for point defense. Often cover multiple objectives with them. The catch being if I detonate upon seeing an objective hacked, I blow ALL the REs. Even if that objective were fluxed first. Its a reasonable trade off. 3) This still doesn't fix the problem of Frisbee REs. Most complaints arise from this tactic. I don't see how nerfing people who use multiple REs as intended, while not fixing the Frisbee RE thrower complaints, and reducing the AV capacity of scouts effectively nerfs Slayer Scouts. In the end, that mentality only increases the viability of that play style vs more legitimate scout roles. I totally agree thet FRISBEE REMOTE EXPLOSIVES is a BROKEN F*#CKING MECHANIC that CCP needs to fix ASAP!!!!!! However a tank should never be killable by one scout either IMO. It should be a pair of scouts or a scout working in conjunction with a heavy or other AV type to do it.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4646	Posted - 2014.11.20 15:32:00 - [340] - Quote IDK, I mean, if the HAV pilot is dumb enough to let a scout come up and drop 4 RE's right on his a$$, he probably should get blowed up. That sh*t is not easy to do! (The godfather of tactical logistics)

Jadd Hatchen KILL-EM-QUICK 655	Posted - 2014.11.20 15:36:00 - [341] - Quote Xatha De'Agelle wrote: I love what you do Rattati! I like this with one addendum based on !!!the complaint about tank fighting further below!!!; if you do this where RE's are that difficult to deploy by scouts: Options: 1a) Set RE's at a BW of 2. It'll interrupt uplinks, but allow the allotment of RE's to be available. 1b) Make RE's tap shields and armor at the same time. 2) Make anti-tank RE's, so that one or two are devastation, but poor against infantry. 3) Provide some version of alpha damage against tanks. (Point blank anti-tank that isn't suicide-knifing with nova's) I understand that changes have a lot of other considerations, like proxies, Uplinks, and making equipment more scalable on radar... One complaint as a scout: RE's costing 4 per a unit And STD scouts being 4 BW. I thought these changes with BW were to stop equipment spam? Well, Uplinks are the spam, not RE's. I'm a hateful Anti-vehicle scout with RE's. Please don't make it this difficult for STD to take out a tank like this. Few but a cloaked scout can get close enough to tanks to RE them. It takes at least 2 Basic RE's and a flux grenade to significantly wound(read: almost destroy) a milita/basic fit tank. That entails sneaking up inside of a constantly shifting target window, throwing the RE's, fluxing the shields off and detonating. One RE is going to tickle and then they drive off(Or backup and kill you.) Taking out careless tanks with RE's will be very hard unless you are running a protoscout, which sets the curve very high against STD scouts in turn because Proto-scouts have fitting room for proto-RE's anyway of which their 12 BW can deploy them all too. They would just gun it forward or back up and gun you down if you're caught. Stop this... Stop saying that scouts main role in life is to be anti-vehicle... it takes taht role away from the heavies and the assaults and the logis who are supposed to be doing this stuff. Second no tank should be a solo-able thing!!! Why do you all insist that the lightest dropsuit class in the game should be able to destroy the most heavy vehicle inthe game, BY ITSELF? This makes no logical sense whatsoever. That's like trying to claim that a frigate should have enough guns and firepower to solo kill a dreadnaught in EVE... It's not gonna happen. Third, you don't just have freaking REs as a scout!!! If you truly wanna go tank hunting in a scout, then ONE RE + proto-AV nades + skilled up PLASMA CANNON or SWARM LAUNCHER still gets you a very decen chance to kill a tank!!! Whining about the RE thing is just plain dumb as you have so many other tools to use in the toolbox!!!!
Jadd Hatchen KILL-EM-QUICK 655	Posted - 2014.11.20 15:41:00 - [342] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: LAVALLOIS Nash wrote: Almost all the gameplayI do is logi. And I think this change will impact me negatively. Please hear me out: I understand that there are concerns about "equipment spam". By this, im sure they mean when people put down 50 nanohives around a supply depot. But thats not where I get any WP from because I dont do that. Here is what I do when im playing Dust: I spawn in, I have to get out and get my uplinks out fast. If its Line Harvest, I got to go and place uplinks on the roofs so that if my team suffers a bunch of setbacks, we have a place outside of the redline that is safe to regroup and relaunch from. It allows a outmatched team to keep trying instead of being redlined and waiting out the clock. If its Fracture Road then I prefer to have one on the pipes, as well as at locations I-7 and C-7. This creates a "flexible front line" and allows a team to reground and encircle an enemy who has the objective in Domination. I need more that just 1 uplink, and I always place a Remote Mine on my uplink after I plant it as a trap to any shotgun eager scouts. Heck, sometimes when I know my team is about to be driven from an area, ill plant some nanohives with Remote Mines on top as we retreat, knowing that victorious squads get careless sometimes. Ive taken out entire squads with this kind of trickery. Im a player who plays 99% solo, i been playing for almost a year........this is going to curtail my creativity. So far ive been doing well because Ive had the flexibility to. Even LAVs, every time I use one, place some REs on the seat beside me, so if it gets captured I can get revenge on whoever killed me and stole it. Which brings me to my next point: Proximity mines: Yeah, I use them. I should mention i have mines Lv5. I can slow down, scare, or destroy heavy or light vehicles. This is part of my job. I supply the frontline. In order for me to do that, its preferable if I can prevent an enemy vehicle assault on my teams rear or flank. I cant have the same suit with 3 sets of mines that I have for my 2 sets of uplinks and 1 set of RE. I need two different suits. Its not "throwing down cheap equipment either". My proto proxymine fit costs something like 70,000SIK. And I dont always get to get away with it either. Sometimes an enemy tank or a scout with an early start catches me. Plus after all the equipment is down, then what do I do? I no longer have a role. Right now I can take a dropship, land in a hotzone, throw down some triage nanohvives, and then blast off. For player who play in squads, its more feasible to follow someone with a repair tool or revive team mates. I cant always do that. Im always a solo player. When my job is to supply, I need to be able to deliver all these resources on time without compromising the rest of my supply chain. There have been times when im the only logi on a 16 man team. Imagine how much worse it would be with limits. If you want to say that "if you deploy stuff in a logi suit you cant use anything else except a "logistics" suit," then I would accept. How about before everything gets changed, try a few small hotfixes: -Prevent equipment from being deployed within a certain radius of a supply depot. A large enough one because the supply depot provides nanites so there is no need for equipment near it. -Increase the range and radius of flux grenades so that they can be thrown into high places -Increase the hitbox vertically to 0.3M on equipment so it can be targeted easier (exception: proxy mines) -Introduce a mass driver that fires flux rounds (ok maybe thats not a hotfix) Thankyou for considering my concerns. Those types of radii would be great, but from what Rattati has told me, not something they are able to do... although that was pre-1.9, so maybe the new code allows it. If it did, yes, that would be great, too. The complaints about RE's and proxies make a lot of sense, so I would propose the folllowing change Rattati: 1) Proxy BW = 1, RE BW =2 or 2) Give scouts a 50% reduction to RE/prox BW so they get the above values (For those who hate the frisbee scout RE's, this doesn't affect it either way, that only takes 1. ) Again, why does everyone keep insisting that a scout must have the ability to kill a tank with RE's ONLY? You can use an RE, AV nades, and a swarm launcher... Oh wait that would cut into you ability to face shotgun people and otherwise kill infantry as a scout? Guess what you can't and shouldn't be able to do EVERYTHING in one suit like that. That's why there are so many scouts and scouts are so OP right now. They can do everything in one setup if skilled up right and that is counter to encouraging teamwork in the game. Seriously, if you want to take out a tank, then you should be doing that, but if you want to kill infantry, then you should have a DIFFERENT setup for that, not the same one.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5177	Posted - 2014.11.20 15:52:00 - [343] - Quote Most scouts fail to understand the joy of PLC in the back of the head. They are too afraid of missing. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Sylwester Dziewiecki Interregnum. 431	Posted - 2014.11.20 16:36:00 - [344] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Diversity We can now influence players to use more Proximity Mines for example, as Scan Profile will allow them to be hidden from low Precision Vehicle Players, as well as having a lower Bandwidth Cost, allowing more at the same time, without allowing more Uplinks and Nanohives. Extra damage wouldnGÇÖt hurt either. (Sorry, but your proposed numbers do not even scratch the problem.. ) I use Proximity Mines for a while, and I don't want be able to use more Proximity Mines - I want to be able to use them less with better or much better results. Placing mins is painful and it's not paying back(not because it's signature but because you are force by mechanic to place them a lot, and when you do so they are visual for everyone, they also maybe kill something). When you nerfed FF so that Proximity Mines blast radius no longer activate Remote Explosive, usefulness of PM drop dramatically. I want for example: Anti-HAV PM that cost a lot CPU/PG, and you are limited to carry 1, but it do 10x~ dmg or something like that. Gallente Speed Scout. EVE side of me: Nosum Hseebnrido
Mister Goo Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 68	Posted - 2014.11.20 17:25:00 - [345] - Quote After reading this thread I have determined 2 things. 1. Scouts think they should have the capability to do everything with the same suit SOLO. They are not OP and should not be forced to change how they play, everybody else should have to. 2. The players who truly play a logi are going to suffer from this, because the tourists who insist on vomiting equipment just for WP. Equipment spam is the problem that BW is supposed to fix. I think BW is NOT the answer, there are much better ways to do this and the ideas in Cross's Logistics thread are the most solid I have seen. I know that there are no comments by a dev there, but I also know that you have been reading it. It is very seldom when running with a squad that I need more than what my suit can put out at one time. But a player should not be punished for using multiple suits to change with the situation. The problem is not that one player uses multiple types of equipment it is that currently they are allowed to put large amounts of the same type of equipment in one place, mostly around supply depots. The fix to this is to put a non deployable radius around equipment of the same types. Granted one problem is repair hives with nano hives needing to be close for repair and resupply not a bad thing. Uplinks are the exceptions if you want good fall back points you need to put out some well placed uplinks. Not 5 in a line out in the open on the way to the objectives. WP whores know what I am talking about. There should not be any need to put hives anywhere near a supply depot. For that matter no equipment should be allowed within a determined radius of said depot. Drop links included, your better off putting them in a better location so your team can spawn in and retake the depot. My last is RE Spam: RE's are equipment, they are not grenades, as such they should not be resupplied by nano hives. It is a broken mechanic that you need to fix. RE's are a valuable resource that are overly abused, and the proposed BW is not going to fix them. RE frisbee throwers, yes I am pointing directly at you mister scout, only use one at a time. Throw, detonate, resupply, rinse and repeat until hive is extinguished. If you can not breach the area with 3 RE's then it is time to try another tactic, or use both your EQ slots for RE's and have six, but no cloak or hive. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Dubya Guy Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 27	Posted - 2014.11.20 17:30:00 - [346] - Quote Mister Goo wrote: After reading this thread I have determined 2 things. 1. Scouts think they should have the capability to do everything with the same suit SOLO. They are not OP and should not be forced to change how they play, everybody else should have to. 2. The players who truly play a logi are going to suffer from this, because the tourists who insist on vomiting equipment just for WP. Equipment spam is the problem that BW is supposed to fix. I think BW is NOT the answer, there are much better ways to do this and the ideas in Cross's Logistics thread are the most solid I have seen. I know that there are no comments by a dev there, but I also know that you have been reading it. It is very seldom when running with a squad that I need more than what my suit can put out at one time. But a player should not be punished for using multiple suits to change with the situation. The problem is not that one player uses multiple types of equipment it is that currently they are allowed to put large amounts of the same type of equipment in one place, mostly around supply depots. The fix to this is to put a non deployable radius around equipment of the same types. Granted one problem is repair hives with nano hives needing to be close for repair and resupply not a bad thing. Uplinks are the exceptions if you want good fall back points you need to put out some well placed uplinks. Not 5 in a line out in the open on the way to the objectives. WP whores know what I am talking about. There should not be any need to put hives anywhere near a supply depot. For that matter no equipment should be allowed within a determined radius of said depot. Drop links included, your better off putting them in a better location so your team can spawn in and retake the depot. My last is RE Spam: RE's are equipment, they are not grenades, as such they should not be resupplied by nano hives. It is a broken mechanic that you need to fix. RE's are a valuable resource that are overly abused, and the proposed BW is not going to fix them. RE frisbee throwers, yes I am pointing directly at you mister scout, only use one at a time. Throw, detonate, resupply, rinse and repeat until hive is extinguished. If you can not breach the area with 3 RE's then it is time to try another tactic, or use both your EQ slots for RE's and have six, but no cloak or hive. ^ This. All of this. Spot-on Goo. But too late. Bandwidth is going to happen. Devs don't put something out like this unless their going to do it. Am afraid all they will listen to is how to tweak the numbers on Bandwidth. FPS = First Person Support. Kills win battles but it's kinda hard to kill if you're dead and out of ammo.
Mister Goo Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 69	Posted - 2014.11.20 17:33:00 - [347] - Quote Dubya Guy wrote: ^ This. All of this. Spot-on Goo. But too late. Bandwidth is going to happen. Devs don't put something out like this unless their going to do it. Am afraid all they will listen to is how to tweak the numbers on Bandwidth. I have seen them change things based on discussion threads before it was implemented, but alas I think your right. I, being the optimist that I am hope that maybe they will see the light. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4648	Posted - 2014.11.20 17:34:00 - [348] - Quote Mister Goo wrote: After reading this thread I have determined 2 things. 1. Scouts think they should have the capability to do everything with the same suit SOLO. They are not OP and should not be forced to change how they play, everybody else should have to. 2. The players who truly play a logi are going to suffer from this, because the tourists who insist on vomiting equipment just for WP. Equipment spam is the problem that BW is supposed to fix. I think BW is NOT the answer, there are much better ways to do this and the ideas in Cross's Logistics thread are the most solid I have seen. I know that there are no comments by a dev there, but I also know that you have been reading it. It is very seldom when running with a squad that I need more than what my suit can put out at one time. But a player should not be punished for using multiple suits to change with the situation. The problem is not that one player uses multiple types of equipment it is that currently they are allowed to put large amounts of the same type of equipment in one place, mostly around supply depots. The fix to this is to put a non deployable radius around equipment of the same types. Granted one problem is repair hives with nano hives needing to be close for repair and resupply not a bad thing. Uplinks are the exceptions if you want good fall back points you need to put out some well placed uplinks. Not 5 in a line out in the open on the way to the objectives. WP whores know what I am talking about. There should not be any need to put hives anywhere near a supply depot. For that matter no equipment should be allowed within a determined radius of said depot. Drop links included, your better off putting them in a better location so your team can spawn in and retake the depot. . The "inactive radius" thing has already been suggested (by me at least 15 times, by others at least as many). Per Rattati it is not something they can do with the game's code. Great idea, but not technically feasible, unfortunately. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 515	Posted - 2014.11.20 17:36:00 - [349] - Quote Mister Goo wrote: Equipment spam is the problem that BW is supposed to fix. I think BW is NOT the answer, there are much better ways to do this and the ideas in Cross's Logistics thread are the most solid I have seen. I know that there are no comments by a dev there, but I also know that you have been reading it. OMG, YES! I totally forgot about Cross's equipment revamp yesterday! THAT idea works without unduly penalizing tactical play! wtf, Rat? Why the push for BW, but not even a COMMENT about the other? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 515	Posted - 2014.11.20 17:38:00 - [350] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Mister Goo wrote: After reading this thread I have determined 2 things. 1. Scouts think they should have the capability to do everything with the same suit SOLO. They are not OP and should not be forced to change how they play, everybody else should have to. 2. The players who truly play a logi are going to suffer from this, because the tourists who insist on vomiting equipment just for WP. Equipment spam is the problem that BW is supposed to fix. I think BW is NOT the answer, there are much better ways to do this and the ideas in Cross's Logistics thread are the most solid I have seen. I know that there are no comments by a dev there, but I also know that you have been reading it. It is very seldom when running with a squad that I need more than what my suit can put out at one time. But a player should not be punished for using multiple suits to change with the situation. The problem is not that one player uses multiple types of equipment it is that currently they are allowed to put large amounts of the same type of equipment in one place, mostly around supply depots. The fix to this is to put a non deployable radius around equipment of the same types. Granted one problem is repair hives with nano hives needing to be close for repair and resupply not a bad thing. Uplinks are the exceptions if you want good fall back points you need to put out some well placed uplinks. Not 5 in a line out in the open on the way to the objectives. WP whores know what I am talking about. There should not be any need to put hives anywhere near a supply depot. For that matter no equipment should be allowed within a determined radius of said depot. Drop links included, your better off putting them in a better location so your team can spawn in and retake the depot. . The "inactive radius" thing has already been suggested (by me at least 15 times, by others at least as many). Per Rattati it is not something they can do with the game's code. Great idea, but not technically feasible, unfortunately. BS. If they can code in the inability to deploy a vehicle into an open area of a city socket, they can code in the inability to deploy equipment around a supply depot. Period. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

dreth longbow Bank of DUST 514 57	Posted - 2014.11.20 17:43:00 - [351] - Quote Dubya Guy wrote: dreth longbow wrote: I did not read all the responses, so forgive me if this was talked about. This may be and issue, but not as much as other stuff that should be fixed first. The list is to long for this area but you know what I mean. OP why wast time and resources on this? It is not that big of a problem, it has its up and downs and yes the more noobs that come in cause the issues, but as past history has shown it resolves itself. Remember this went away and has just now come back as an irritant. The proposal is flawed. Basically the op wants to punish those who use links/nano especially if the switch suits, but does not do the same for all other classes. Keeping the theme lets prevent those start with proto and then when the team is losing want to switch to basic from doing that or in other words prevent other classes from switching up or down in suits or even between clases like scout then logi then assualt. No one wants that, but some want to limit what equipment I can run or how much I can drop? What about how many times I can call in a lav or tank? Instead of the op's proposal their should be a more elegant solution or one that is not as restrictive. 1) teak software and pay more for band width and problem goes away (this has been discussed in great detail in the past and has the community support by CCP does not want to spend money on buying band width) 2) allow equipment to stay even when switch to other suit and allow oh say (3 eqpmnt slots x2 units each x2 different logi suits =) 12 combo's of links/nanos to be deployed and stay in game through switching suits. 3) do not allow drops to be put within x meters of another drop (average room size/4) 4) nano's should be 1/4 distance because fighters need to resupply Just some thoughts I like most of your thoughts, particularly #3. Unfortunately, John Demonsbane says that the Devs told him that it was not easy to do. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2438711#post2438711 I know, it seems like it could be combined with code from flux grenades, but... Anyway this thread is not about alternatives to Equipment Bandwidth as a means to solve problems. It is about the specifics of Equipment Bandwidth. Equipment Bandwidth is going to happen. It has been determined to be an ingenious idea. We should stay on task and only talk about how much bandwidth different suits will get. I did not know that bandwidth was guaranteed to happen since I rarely look here, I just saw a post about it and was interested in what it was. Just for the record bandwidth as explained in OP seems like a bad and ineloquent "fix" for a small problem when their are so many other issues that would make the game so much better. CCP should prioritize issues based on severity not whims and OP should play more to be able to rate them better! I do not know why this has gotten traction but think about all the other things that ccp should be fixing instead that are easy.
dreth longbow Bank of DUST 514 57	Posted - 2014.11.20 17:51:00 - [352] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Mister Goo wrote: After reading this thread I have determined 2 things. 1. Scouts think they should have the capability to do everything with the same suit SOLO. They are not OP and should not be forced to change how they play, everybody else should have to. 2. The players who truly play a logi are going to suffer from this, because the tourists who insist on vomiting equipment just for WP. Equipment spam is the problem that BW is supposed to fix. I think BW is NOT the answer, there are much better ways to do this and the ideas in Cross's Logistics thread are the most solid I have seen. I know that there are no comments by a dev there, but I also know that you have been reading it. It is very seldom when running with a squad that I need more than what my suit can put out at one time. But a player should not be punished for using multiple suits to change with the situation. The problem is not that one player uses multiple types of equipment it is that currently they are allowed to put large amounts of the same type of equipment in one place, mostly around supply depots. The fix to this is to put a non deployable radius around equipment of the same types. Granted one problem is repair hives with nano hives needing to be close for repair and resupply not a bad thing. Uplinks are the exceptions if you want good fall back points you need to put out some well placed uplinks. Not 5 in a line out in the open on the way to the objectives. WP whores know what I am talking about. There should not be any need to put hives anywhere near a supply depot. For that matter no equipment should be allowed within a determined radius of said depot. Drop links included, your better off putting them in a better location so your team can spawn in and retake the depot. . The "inactive radius" thing has already been suggested (by me at least 15 times, by others at least as many). Per Rattati it is not something they can do with the game's code. Great idea, but not technically feasible, unfortunately. BS. If they can code in the inability to deploy a vehicle into an open area of a city socket, they can code in the inability to deploy equipment around a supply depot. Period. agreed Lets just look at a simply solution, each nano has a field of light that pulses, this is already coded. So use that as a limiter to other nano's. simple. As a programmer/designer of software years ago I know that development is talking out of their Xss, anything can be coded if they understand the issue and have someone who knows what they are doing plan it and submit to programmers to code it. The problem is ccp has very bad, yes very bad development/coders/testers and has since I started playing this game. The game could be so much better if they would get people in management who know how to handle development/coders. The time it takes to implement the current solution is more time than it would take to implement a simpler more reasonable solution not fix.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 515	Posted - 2014.11.20 18:00:00 - [353] - Quote dreth longbow wrote: Dubya Guy wrote: dreth longbow wrote: I did not read all the responses, so forgive me if this was talked about. This may be and issue, but not as much as other stuff that should be fixed first. The list is to long for this area but you know what I mean. OP why wast time and resources on this? It is not that big of a problem, it has its up and downs and yes the more noobs that come in cause the issues, but as past history has shown it resolves itself. Remember this went away and has just now come back as an irritant. The proposal is flawed. Basically the op wants to punish those who use links/nano especially if the switch suits, but does not do the same for all other classes. Keeping the theme lets prevent those start with proto and then when the team is losing want to switch to basic from doing that or in other words prevent other classes from switching up or down in suits or even between clases like scout then logi then assualt. No one wants that, but some want to limit what equipment I can run or how much I can drop? What about how many times I can call in a lav or tank? Instead of the op's proposal their should be a more elegant solution or one that is not as restrictive. 1) teak software and pay more for band width and problem goes away (this has been discussed in great detail in the past and has the community support by CCP does not want to spend money on buying band width) 2) allow equipment to stay even when switch to other suit and allow oh say (3 eqpmnt slots x2 units each x2 different logi suits =) 12 combo's of links/nanos to be deployed and stay in game through switching suits. 3) do not allow drops to be put within x meters of another drop (average room size/4) 4) nano's should be 1/4 distance because fighters need to resupply Just some thoughts I like most of your thoughts, particularly #3. Unfortunately, John Demonsbane says that the Devs told him that it was not easy to do. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2438711#post2438711 I know, it seems like it could be combined with code from flux grenades, but... Anyway this thread is not about alternatives to Equipment Bandwidth as a means to solve problems. It is about the specifics of Equipment Bandwidth. Equipment Bandwidth is going to happen. It has been determined to be an ingenious idea. We should stay on task and only talk about how much bandwidth different suits will get. I did not know that bandwidth was guaranteed to happen since I rarely look here, I just saw a post about it and was interested in what it was. Just for the record bandwidth as explained in OP seems like a bad and ineloquent "fix" for a small problem when their are so many other issues that would make the game so much better. CCP should prioritize issues based on severity not whims and OP should play more to be able to rate them better! I do not know why this has gotten traction but think about all the other things that ccp should be fixing instead that are easy. The idea has traction because noone except the WP whores and intentional lag inducers like spam AND because the impact of this on Logistics overall is being ignored in favor of input from minority Logis and NON-Logis. There are MANY other options to mitigate or solve the issue and MANY far greater issues needing attention priority but those are being rescheduled to ram this one through instead. Just read the commentary from the scout community (the brokenest suit in the game for what? 10 months running now?) worried about not being able to RE solo tanks and adamantly tweaking the numbers to keep that ability. What part of Recon/Speed Hacks/Assassination= Solo Tank Artist? But they're A-OK with this otherwise because it nerfs everyone else and afterwards keeps them in place, broken and OP. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5183	Posted - 2014.11.20 18:04:00 - [354] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Mister Goo wrote: Equipment spam is the problem that BW is supposed to fix. I think BW is NOT the answer, there are much better ways to do this and the ideas in Cross's Logistics thread are the most solid I have seen. I know that there are no comments by a dev there, but I also know that you have been reading it. OMG, YES! I totally forgot about Cross's equipment revamp yesterday! THAT idea works without unduly penalizing tactical play! wtf, Rat? Why the push for BW, but not even a COMMENT about the other? Because Cross' logi revamps are compatible with BW changes and BW can be adjusted up or down to allow logis greater play and flexibility without indirectly buffing other suits since BW is a suit-specific stat. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 515	Posted - 2014.11.20 18:13:00 - [355] - Quote dreth longbow wrote: The time it takes to implement the current solution is more time than it would take to implement a simpler more reasonable solution not fix. 90% of my issue with this. I PC'd last night (Rings, 3 in 2 out) and we had a scout dash in on us at the southern terminal in the city (below the rings themselves) and drop an OB in the street from just behind the null cannon. I know he was there because I could SEE him. The OB wiped me (thats fine, I was in the street) wiped my heavy (he was in cover behind a southmost wall) but the scout did the OB strafe-dance, STRAFED THROUGH THE OB AND LIVED. And then speed-hacked the point. This has been like this for MONTHS, first time I saw it done was easily 6 months ago, in PC, when my group dropped an OB atop a sandcrawler structure and I watched a scout do the OB dance on my passives (I was under the crawler) and LIVE. For MONTHS this has been like this. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 515	Posted - 2014.11.20 18:14:00 - [356] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Mister Goo wrote: Equipment spam is the problem that BW is supposed to fix. I think BW is NOT the answer, there are much better ways to do this and the ideas in Cross's Logistics thread are the most solid I have seen. I know that there are no comments by a dev there, but I also know that you have been reading it. OMG, YES! I totally forgot about Cross's equipment revamp yesterday! THAT idea works without unduly penalizing tactical play! wtf, Rat? Why the push for BW, but not even a COMMENT about the other? Because Cross' logi revamps are compatible with BW changes and BW can be adjusted up or down to allow logis greater play and flexibility without indirectly buffing other suits since BW is a suit-specific stat. With appropriate dialing of the numbers in Cross' idea, BW and its inherent limitations to gameplay outside of equipment are not neccessary. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Syeven Reed T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 998	Posted - 2014.11.20 18:19:00 - [357] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Mister Goo wrote: Equipment spam is the problem that BW is supposed to fix. I think BW is NOT the answer, there are much better ways to do this and the ideas in Cross's Logistics thread are the most solid I have seen. I know that there are no comments by a dev there, but I also know that you have been reading it. OMG, YES! I totally forgot about Cross's equipment revamp yesterday! THAT idea works without unduly penalizing tactical play! wtf, Rat? Why the push for BW, but not even a COMMENT about the other? Because Cross' logi revamps are compatible with BW changes and BW can be adjusted up or down to allow logis greater play and flexibility without indirectly buffing other suits since BW is a suit-specific stat. Exactly, BW is less binary than "let's stop stuff being placed here". SCAN ATTEMPT PREVENTED EvE - 21 Day Trial
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 515	Posted - 2014.11.20 18:30:00 - [358] - Quote Syeven Reed wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Mister Goo wrote: Equipment spam is the problem that BW is supposed to fix. I think BW is NOT the answer, there are much better ways to do this and the ideas in Cross's Logistics thread are the most solid I have seen. I know that there are no comments by a dev there, but I also know that you have been reading it. OMG, YES! I totally forgot about Cross's equipment revamp yesterday! THAT idea works without unduly penalizing tactical play! wtf, Rat? Why the push for BW, but not even a COMMENT about the other? Because Cross' logi revamps are compatible with BW changes and BW can be adjusted up or down to allow logis greater play and flexibility without indirectly buffing other suits since BW is a suit-specific stat. Exactly, BW is less binary than "let's stop stuff being placed here". wtf does " binary" have to do with it? Except that BW WON'T stop or limit bitches from dropping equipment all over supply depots to initiate lag? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 336	Posted - 2014.11.20 18:57:00 - [359] - Quote Since bandwith seems to be already the way things are going, please DO NOT DESTROY EQUIPMENT below the switched in suits bandwith, but DEACTIVATE IT Making it possible to REACTIVATE IT when switching to a Logi suit again. This would be the only way to give the logi a chance to switch to a different role when needed without destroying all efforts before that. If the deployed equipment is lost, it would be a severe punishment for the flexibility of a single role. Nobody else is tied to stayin one role for the whole match, so should the logis! Even with this bandwith change, you will still have equipment spam. The spammers just need to stay in their logi suit, which they usually do anyway, to keep their farming pile of crap running. I propose again, a hardcap for every player of 10 pieces of gear on the ground, after which the first will be destroyed. Remotes/proxies count as 1/3rd piece. Only Logi suits would keep everything active Logi 10 all others less Assault 4 Commando 3 Scout 2 Heavy 1 or 0 This would be much simpler and much fairer than what you plan right now. Also no hives around depots (max 2 uplinks) and no equipment whatsoever around CRU's. Done you may thank me later for saving you time to code all this chaos. Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...
XxGhazbaranxX Endless Hatred 1882	Posted - 2014.11.20 21:22:00 - [360] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear Players Based on a lot of feedback, both from CPM, Community and previous CCP designs, one of the things we are able to conjure up is the much wanted Equipment Bandwidth feature. Quality over Quantity We want players to use the best Equipment they have at their disposal. ThatGÇÖs why Bandwidth will not increase with item tiers. LOGISTICS SHOULD BE THE ONLY ONES CAPABLE OF WIELDING SPECIALIZED EQUIPMENT I have been playing eve for 5 years and am currently retired. In eve, The bandwidth of the drones increased based on their size. Ships specialized in drones had bigger drone bays and more bandwidth. Now I see you have done this part by giving logistics suits more bandwith to play with but; we also have to understand that there are at least 4 types of proto equipment for each equipment type. The specialized equipment, like the wyrkomi triage and and the allotek nanohive should cost more bandwidth snce these come with extra abilities, hence the increase in fitting requirements they currently. This will make logistics suits more desireable for being able to use specialized equipment like core focused and six kin repair tools, allotek and wyrkomi triage hives and all the other "specialized" equipment types because of their roles as support. This will also promote the usage of logistics suits and we will see less scouts wielding or other suits wielding these powerful variants of equipment. Stting the true and dedicated logi aside from the rest. Plasma Cannon Advocate [SUPPORT BREACH SHTGUN CHANGES][2]

John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4654	Posted - 2014.11.20 23:23:00 - [361] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Mister Goo wrote: Equipment spam is the problem that BW is supposed to fix. I think BW is NOT the answer, there are much better ways to do this and the ideas in Cross's Logistics thread are the most solid I have seen. I know that there are no comments by a dev there, but I also know that you have been reading it. OMG, YES! I totally forgot about Cross's equipment revamp yesterday! THAT idea works without unduly penalizing tactical play! wtf, Rat? Why the push for BW, but not even a COMMENT about the other? Because Cross' logi revamps are compatible with BW changes and BW can be adjusted up or down to allow logis greater play and flexibility without indirectly buffing other suits since BW is a suit-specific stat. With appropriate dialing of the numbers in Cross' idea, BW and its inherent limitations to gameplay outside of equipment are not neccessary. That is an odd statement considering Cross is in favor of BW... (The godfather of tactical logistics)
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 519	Posted - 2014.11.20 23:56:00 - [362] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Mister Goo wrote: Equipment spam is the problem that BW is supposed to fix. I think BW is NOT the answer, there are much better ways to do this and the ideas in Cross's Logistics thread are the most solid I have seen. I know that there are no comments by a dev there, but I also know that you have been reading it. OMG, YES! I totally forgot about Cross's equipment revamp yesterday! THAT idea works without unduly penalizing tactical play! wtf, Rat? Why the push for BW, but not even a COMMENT about the other? Because Cross' logi revamps are compatible with BW changes and BW can be adjusted up or down to allow logis greater play and flexibility without indirectly buffing other suits since BW is a suit-specific stat. With appropriate dialing of the numbers in Cross' idea, BW and its inherent limitations to gameplay outside of equipment are not neccessary. That is an odd statement considering Cross is in favor of BW... Having both would be an odd scenario, and having both imposed would be hyper-redundant. Either one seems to fit his idea of an addressing of spam, but that doesn't mean one isn't better than the other when negative side-effects get weighed in. Good to know you're Cross' voice-piece now, he's been having trouble speaking for himself. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4654	Posted - 2014.11.21 00:14:00 - [363] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: OMG, YES! I totally forgot about Cross's equipment revamp yesterday! THAT idea works without unduly penalizing tactical play! wtf, Rat? Why the push for BW, but not even a COMMENT about the other? Because Cross' logi revamps are compatible with BW changes and BW can be adjusted up or down to allow logis greater play and flexibility without indirectly buffing other suits since BW is a suit-specific stat. With appropriate dialing of the numbers in Cross' idea, BW and its inherent limitations to gameplay outside of equipment are not neccessary. That is an odd statement considering Cross is in favor of BW... Having both would be an odd scenario, and having both imposed would be hyper-redundant. Either one seems to fit his idea of an addressing of spam, but that doesn't mean one isn't better than the other when negative side-effects get weighed in. Good to know you're Cross' voice-piece now, he's been having trouble speaking for himself. shrugs Just a statement of fact. It can be reasonably inferred from his reposting of my explanation of BW that our opinions are similar. However, I am in no way a spokesman for Cross. It's becoming readily apparent that engaging you in any sort of discussion is not worth the effort.... (The godfather of tactical logistics)
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 524	Posted - 2014.11.21 00:42:00 - [364] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: With appropriate dialing of the numbers in Cross' idea, BW and its inherent limitations to gameplay outside of equipment are not neccessary. That is an odd statement considering Cross is in favor of BW... Having both would be an odd scenario, and having both imposed would be hyper-redundant. Either one seems to fit his idea of an addressing of spam, but that doesn't mean one isn't better than the other when negative side-effects get weighed in. Good to know you're Cross' voice-piece now, he's been having trouble speaking for himself. shrugs Just a statement of fact. It can be reasonably inferred from his reposting of my explanation of BW that our opinions are similar. However, I am in no way a spokesman for Cross. It's becoming readily apparent that engaging you in any sort of discussion is not worth the effort.... If all you're into is trying to snipe at my comments or opinions then, yeah, don't bother and save yourself getting LOGIc-bombed. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Happy Violentime OMFGZOMBIESRUN 898	Posted - 2014.11.21 02:35:00 - [365] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: Llast 326 wrote: Imp Smash wrote: One Eyed King wrote: So I read through the thread and looked at the spreadsheet, and I don't know if I fully understand how this works. REs are set at 4, with a standard scout at 4. If I lay out one RE, does that equal 4 and laying out another would negate the first? Or, because they are both the same piece of EQ, would I be able to lay out the rest? I am fine for not letting scouts infringe on Logi territory, but if I can't lay out 3 std REs on a Std or Adv scout, that is going to be a problem. Every RE you place counts as 4 BW. So if you place 2 REs you have 8 spent. Say you have 16 BW. You can spend 8 more. Any spent after that will cause the first RE placed (I think) to go pop. Although come to think of it, if you could throw REs REALLy fast, you could throw 5 REs, into a crowd causing the first RE you threw to pop before the 4 second timer on REs has expired and blow them early! o.O MUAHAHAHHAHA All joking aside, why would it be a problem if scouts can only lay 1 or 2 REs? Because it takes Three to take out a HAVGÇª And it is not an easy task to do. If a scout can only lay one or two, then it is only encouraging their use as an anti Infantry weapon. Just work in pairs then... job done. Seriously, how in the world is it reasonable for a freaking SOLO puny scout to take out a freaking super-powered tanks with high tech nanites and shields anyways? Instead having an assault or logi distract the tank with some swarms/plasma while a scout sneaks in to place an RE or two would be the perfect teamwork/gameplay goal IMO. Its not down to the suit, the suit just allows you to be sneaky and fast ever see a logi try to re a tank?
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 137	Posted - 2014.11.21 02:50:00 - [366] - Quote I believe the main point is "solo" scout. While I would contend that it's reasonable to expect a single AV-weapon (IE, swarms, PLC, forge) user to be able to kill a tank on their own, I think it may be unreasonable to expect a scout to solo remote-bomb a tank. Primarily because it involves very little actual sacrifice on the scout's part. As in, it requires very little sacrifice of anti-infantry armament (or mobility, in the case of commando suits). So, that could be just a little bit problematic. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
Happy Violentime OMFGZOMBIESRUN 898	Posted - 2014.11.21 02:52:00 - [367] - Quote So I guess once the gal logis have dropped their deployables they'll be swapping out for their quad scanner suit?
Happy Violentime OMFGZOMBIESRUN 898	Posted - 2014.11.21 03:01:00 - [368] - Quote Victor Moody Stahl wrote: I believe the main point is "solo" scout. While I would contend that it's reasonable to expect a single AV-weapon (IE, swarms, PLC, forge) user to be able to kill a tank on their own, I think it may be unreasonable to expect a scout to solo remote-bomb a tank. Primarily because it involves very little actual sacrifice on the scout's part. As in, it requires very little sacrifice of anti-infantry armament (or mobility, in the case of commando suits). So, that could be just a little bit problematic. I would imagine if it was a 'problem' the forums would be full of tanker QQ.
Iron Toast Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 20	Posted - 2014.11.21 03:08:00 - [369] - Quote I would prefer that there not be tiers to bandwidth. However, if there need to be tiers it would be better to have better equipment use less bandwidth than to have each level of suit have more bandwidth. This allows a logo to always use their best equipment even if they aren't running a proto suit.
GLOBAL fils'de RAGE Consolidated Dust 50	Posted - 2014.11.21 04:24:00 - [370] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: John Psi wrote: It's very simple - the equipment running from any suit should not live longer this suit. Suit die or refitted - equipment DOWN. So the roll of a Logi should be to cower in a corner once all their equipment is deployed? Nono, as long as you respawn in a Logi again, they stay up. Rattati...quick point on this. It does limit the tactical flexibility players have when they get painted into a corner (i.e. perhaps too steep a cost for switching roles in the match). The ability to adapt mid-game between suits / fits ect is at least for me a major positive of the game and this may induce too steep a penalty. Consider this...quite a few dedicated Logi players also play Sentinel as well. Imagine dropping a couple uplinks and seeding your nanohives and if it looks like the enemy push is gaining momentum you switch to your heavy hmg and poof...the hardpoint you had set up to support your team is gone. That said, I do generally like the idea of bandwidth and the thought process of deriving it from EVE. I think it's also key to remember that in EVE you don't die (i.e. lose ships) nearly on the same scale as Dust. Also, when you die in EVE the drones still stay in space and don't die with you. I think with perhaps some tweaks this system could work in Dust but I'm not sure quite how to implement it at the moment. How's JBLM? Tampa's chilly. I agree our nests will suffer, but with all the HMG hate maybe turning objectives over at a faster rate will add to our mayhem quota..lol Gonna sound like an NFL owners meeting with talk of more offence and less defence-ever see a 300lb running back with an HMG?

GLOBAL fils'de RAGE Consolidated Dust 50	Posted - 2014.11.21 04:28:00 - [371] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: John Psi wrote: It's very simple - the equipment running from any suit should not live longer this suit. Suit die or refitted - equipment DOWN. So the roll of a Logi should be to cower in a corner once all their equipment is deployed? Nono, as long as you respawn in a Logi again, they stay up. Rattati...quick point on this. It does limit the tactical flexibility players have when they get painted into a corner (i.e. perhaps too steep a cost for switching roles in the match). The ability to adapt mid-game between suits / fits ect is at least for me a major positive of the game and this may induce too steep a penalty. Consider this...quite a few dedicated Logi players also play Sentinel as well. Imagine dropping a couple uplinks and seeding your nanohives and if it looks like the enemy push is gaining momentum you switch to your heavy hmg and poof...the hardpoint you had set up to support your team is gone. Yes, you made a decision to sacrifice one advantage for another, or you can choose to not do that. That's kind of the point. Sentinels should have BW for at least 1 biscuit.
lee corwood Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 1059	Posted - 2014.11.21 10:07:00 - [372] - Quote Happy Violentime wrote: So I guess once the gal logis have dropped their deployables they'll be swapping out for their quad scanner suit? scanner plus injector and rep tool with a back up nanohive in a pinch, but likely hoarding and never using. EDIT: regardless of race, I don't see the rep tool being given up by any logi, unless they aren't actually a logi Knights of Ender Director Logi 4 Life \| Youtube Vids
Syeven Reed T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 1002	Posted - 2014.11.21 10:18:00 - [373] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Syeven Reed wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Mister Goo wrote: Equipment spam is the problem that BW is supposed to fix. I think BW is NOT the answer, there are much better ways to do this and the ideas in Cross's Logistics thread are the most solid I have seen. I know that there are no comments by a dev there, but I also know that you have been reading it. OMG, YES! I totally forgot about Cross's equipment revamp yesterday! THAT idea works without unduly penalizing tactical play! wtf, Rat? Why the push for BW, but not even a COMMENT about the other? Because Cross' logi revamps are compatible with BW changes and BW can be adjusted up or down to allow logis greater play and flexibility without indirectly buffing other suits since BW is a suit-specific stat. Exactly, BW is less binary than "let's stop stuff being placed here". wtf does " binary" have to do with it? Except that BW WON'T stop or limit bitches from dropping equipment all over supply depots to initiate lag? Binary - Yes or No, 1 or 0, True or False. Your right it won't stop them, thats the point. However when they move to a different suit the equipment is going to go poof. SCAN ATTEMPT PREVENTED EvE - 21 Day Trial
lee corwood Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 1059	Posted - 2014.11.21 10:20:00 - [374] - Quote Happy Violentime wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: Llast 326 wrote: Imp Smash wrote: One Eyed King wrote: So I read through the thread and looked at the spreadsheet, and I don't know if I fully understand how this works. REs are set at 4, with a standard scout at 4. If I lay out one RE, does that equal 4 and laying out another would negate the first? Or, because they are both the same piece of EQ, would I be able to lay out the rest? I am fine for not letting scouts infringe on Logi territory, but if I can't lay out 3 std REs on a Std or Adv scout, that is going to be a problem. Every RE you place counts as 4 BW. So if you place 2 REs you have 8 spent. Say you have 16 BW. You can spend 8 more. Any spent after that will cause the first RE placed (I think) to go pop. Although come to think of it, if you could throw REs REALLy fast, you could throw 5 REs, into a crowd causing the first RE you threw to pop before the 4 second timer on REs has expired and blow them early! o.O MUAHAHAHHAHA All joking aside, why would it be a problem if scouts can only lay 1 or 2 REs? Because it takes Three to take out a HAVGÇª And it is not an easy task to do. If a scout can only lay one or two, then it is only encouraging their use as an anti Infantry weapon. Just work in pairs then... job done. Seriously, how in the world is it reasonable for a freaking SOLO puny scout to take out a freaking super-powered tanks with high tech nanites and shields anyways? Instead having an assault or logi distract the tank with some swarms/plasma while a scout sneaks in to place an RE or two would be the perfect teamwork/gameplay goal IMO. Its not down to the suit, the suit just allows you to be sneaky and fast ever see a logi try to re a tank? Yep. Seen it and I've done it. I found it has absolutely nothing to do with the suit and everything to do with the tanker. 8 out of 10 tankers I encounter have really poor situational awareness. I usually don't even consider remoting a tank until I've first encountered it on the map and it let me get right next to it. But that aside, even as a proto swarmer, unless the tank driver panics and gets stuck on terrain, I normally don't solo tanks. I do aid in finishing the job, definitely. Maybe I'm just lucky because I hear all these horror stories about tanks and yet in almost every match I've played, I wasn't the only one who brought out AV to deal with it. I have had a few matches in the past where I was most definitely alone. He was demolishing our clones and we couldn't bring in a tank without him blowing it up before the RDV let go. I had to lay out mine traps and use my swarms to trick him into running them over. Took me 540K to do it, but worth it. With the proposed changes however, that won't be possible, but again, that specific situation was a LONG time ago. Knights of Ender Director Logi 4 Life \| Youtube Vids
lee corwood Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 1059	Posted - 2014.11.21 10:25:00 - [375] - Quote Syeven Reed wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Syeven Reed wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: OMG, YES! I totally forgot about Cross's equipment revamp yesterday! THAT idea works without unduly penalizing tactical play! wtf, Rat? Why the push for BW, but not even a COMMENT about the other? Because Cross' logi revamps are compatible with BW changes and BW can be adjusted up or down to allow logis greater play and flexibility without indirectly buffing other suits since BW is a suit-specific stat. Exactly, BW is less binary than "let's stop stuff being placed here". wtf does " binary" have to do with it? Except that BW WON'T stop or limit bitches from dropping equipment all over supply depots to initiate lag? Binary - Yes or No, 1 or 0, True or False. Your right it won't stop them, thats the point. However when they move to a different suit the equipment is going to go poof. ONLY if that different suit has lower BW than the previous, at which point it would 'poof' the EQ that is OVER the new suits BW in the queue order it was laid. There is nothing to stop multiple players from coming together and laying down 1-2 nanohives each to try and initiate this, but that sounds like a lot of effort. Knights of Ender Director Logi 4 Life \| Youtube Vids
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5218	Posted - 2014.11.21 10:42:00 - [376] - Quote GLOBAL fils'de RAGE wrote: Sentinels should have BW for at least 1 biscuit. That skill is called "ammo capacity" Donuts and pizza pockets don't carry themselves. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5218	Posted - 2014.11.21 10:47:00 - [377] - Quote lee corwood wrote: ONLY if that different suit has lower BW than the previous, at which point it would 'poof' the EQ that is OVER the new suits BW in the queue order it was laid. There is nothing to stop multiple players from coming together and laying down 1-2 nanohives each to try and initiate this, but that sounds like a lot of effort. Almost no one who drops hives around depots plays dedicated logi. That's a lazy tourist thing that bandwidth is intended to fix. There is nothing broken about forcing people to be smarter about the position and timing of deployables. The fact that you can currently drop eight hives/uplinks in a cluster then swap to an HMG fatty is pretty stupid. If you want to swap to AV and keep equipment? Last I checked, PLC/swarms fit on a logistics suit. Coincidence? I think not. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 2259	Posted - 2014.11.21 13:38:00 - [378] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: John Psi wrote: It's very simple - the equipment running from any suit should not live longer this suit. Suit die or refitted - equipment DOWN. So the roll of a Logi should be to cower in a corner once all their equipment is deployed? Nono, as long as you respawn in a Logi again, they stay up. Rattati...quick point on this. It does limit the tactical flexibility players have when they get painted into a corner (i.e. perhaps too steep a cost for switching roles in the match). The ability to adapt mid-game between suits / fits ect is at least for me a major positive of the game and this may induce too steep a penalty. Consider this...quite a few dedicated Logi players also play Sentinel as well. Imagine dropping a couple uplinks and seeding your nanohives and if it looks like the enemy push is gaining momentum you switch to your heavy hmg and poof...the hardpoint you had set up to support your team is gone. That said, I do generally like the idea of bandwidth and the thought process of deriving it from EVE. I think it's also key to remember that in EVE you don't die (i.e. lose ships) nearly on the same scale as Dust. Also, when you die in EVE the drones still stay in space and don't die with you. I think with perhaps some tweaks this system could work in Dust but I'm not sure quite how to implement it at the moment. Why not allow dropsuits to overload their bandwidth at the expense of their Shields? Still can't carry more equipment, but you could field more equipment by diverting power from your shields to the transmitter that keeps the equipment "alive" Maybe every BW point overloaded costs you 10 shield HP, 5 regen/sec and adds 1 sec to your delays? Gò¡Gê¬Gò«(Gùú_Gùó)Gò¡Gê¬Gò«
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 529	Posted - 2014.11.21 16:07:00 - [379] - Quote Syeven Reed wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Syeven Reed wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Because Cross' logi revamps are compatible with BW changes and BW can be adjusted up or down to allow logis greater play and flexibility without indirectly buffing other suits since BW is a suit-specific stat. Exactly, BW is less binary than "let's stop stuff being placed here". wtf does " binary" have to do with it? Except that BW WON'T stop or limit bitches from dropping equipment all over supply depots to initiate lag? Binary - Yes or No, 1 or 0, True or False. Your right it won't stop them, thats the point. However when they move to a different suit the equipment is going to go poof. THANK YOU, that is my point. That and that for a completely convoluted "solution", which adds multiple layers of complexity botu for balancing and gameplay AND essentially negates productive Logistical gameplay we DON'T solve the problem, completely or absolutely when it could and should be . As well as adding those balance complexity layers ATOP already persistently imbalanced gameplay/game functionality. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Nirwanda Vaughns 957	Posted - 2014.11.21 16:57:00 - [380] - Quote with the changes, seeing as the amount of prox mines dropped is limited could we perhaps have them magnetized in teh same way as AV nades with say a 5 or 10m seek range? it'd make them so much more usefull and mixed with the lower sig radius of a proto one then at least passive scans wont just light them up all time because as it is prox mines are pointless. every tank ont he map can see em from a mile off Never argue with an idiot. they bring you down to their level and beat you through experience proud C-II bpo owner

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 529	Posted - 2014.11.21 18:18:00 - [381] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: lee corwood wrote: ONLY if that different suit has lower BW than the previous, at which point it would 'poof' the EQ that is OVER the new suits BW in the queue order it was laid. There is nothing to stop multiple players from coming together and laying down 1-2 nanohives each to try and initiate this, but that sounds like a lot of effort. Almost no one who drops hives around depots plays dedicated logi. That's a lazy tourist thing that bandwidth is intended to fix. There is nothing broken about forcing people to be smarter about the position and timing of deployables. The fact that you can currently drop eight hives/uplinks in a cluster then swap to an HMG fatty is pretty stupid. If you want to swap to AV and keep equipment? Last I checked, PLC/swarms fit on a logistics suit. Coincidence? I think not. However, building a minefield thats actually going to be worthwhile AND being able to use support deployables with the squad you're with? That'll be gone. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 529	Posted - 2014.11.21 18:19:00 - [382] - Quote lee corwood wrote: Happy Violentime wrote: So I guess once the gal logis have dropped their deployables they'll be swapping out for their quad scanner suit? scanner plus injector and rep tool with a back up nanohive in a pinch, but likely hoarding and never using. EDIT: regardless of race, I don't see the rep tool being given up by any logi, unless they aren't actually a logi Combat Logistics is NOT always centered on the leash. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 529	Posted - 2014.11.21 18:21:00 - [383] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: John Psi wrote: It's very simple - the equipment running from any suit should not live longer this suit. Suit die or refitted - equipment DOWN. So the roll of a Logi should be to cower in a corner once all their equipment is deployed? Nono, as long as you respawn in a Logi again, they stay up. Rattati...quick point on this. It does limit the tactical flexibility players have when they get painted into a corner (i.e. perhaps too steep a cost for switching roles in the match). The ability to adapt mid-game between suits / fits ect is at least for me a major positive of the game and this may induce too steep a penalty. Consider this...quite a few dedicated Logi players also play Sentinel as well. Imagine dropping a couple uplinks and seeding your nanohives and if it looks like the enemy push is gaining momentum you switch to your heavy hmg and poof...the hardpoint you had set up to support your team is gone. That said, I do generally like the idea of bandwidth and the thought process of deriving it from EVE. I think it's also key to remember that in EVE you don't die (i.e. lose ships) nearly on the same scale as Dust. Also, when you die in EVE the drones still stay in space and don't die with you. I think with perhaps some tweaks this system could work in Dust but I'm not sure quite how to implement it at the moment. Why not allow dropsuits to overload their bandwidth at the expense of their Shields? Still can't carry more equipment, but you could field more equipment by diverting power from your shields to the transmitter that keeps the equipment "alive" Maybe every BW point overloaded costs you 10 shield HP, 5 regen/sec and adds 1 sec to your delays? Maybe for the frames that have combat efficient base stats to start with, but for the Logistics class, who don't, that won't help enough. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 529	Posted - 2014.11.21 18:25:00 - [384] - Quote Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: with the changes, seeing as the amount of prox mines dropped is limited could we perhaps have them magnetized in teh same way as AV nades with say a 5 or 10m seek range? it'd make them so much more usefull and mixed with the lower sig radius of a proto one then at least passive scans wont just light them up all time because as it is prox mines are pointless. every tank ont he map can see em from a mile off PEs as a group are LONG overdue for a rewrite, even if it's just a name change from Proximity Explosive to AV Contact Explosive since that's what they actually are, AV explosives that vehicles need to touch to detonate, not be in proximity of. Changing the name to Don't Forget to Pad With REs would be acceptable IMO also. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 2263	Posted - 2014.11.21 19:06:00 - [385] - Quote Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: with the changes, seeing as the amount of prox mines dropped is limited could we perhaps have them magnetized in teh same way as AV nades with say a 5 or 10m seek range? it'd make them so much more usefull and mixed with the lower sig radius of a proto one then at least passive scans wont just light them up all time because as it is prox mines are pointless. every tank ont he map can see em from a mile off Which is why you use them as a trap and then drive them into it via AV nades/Forge/Swarms. You chase them off into your field which is what kills the softened vehicle (if they even need softened). Gò¡Gê¬Gò«(Gùú_Gùó)Gò¡Gê¬Gò«
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5236	Posted - 2014.11.21 19:58:00 - [386] - Quote Bluntly this needs to happen. Equipment substitutions and lemming rushes via uplink replace real tactics and a need for thought in DUST. People claim tthat this limits tactical options but the current meta is you spam or you lose. There is no tactical flexibility. There is room for only one tactic. For every advantage on the field you must make a sacrifice. The current equipment rules require players to sacrifice nothing. Bandwidth will force a meta change. In my opinion that alone is more than compensation for every drawback. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 5026	Posted - 2014.11.21 20:35:00 - [387] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: Stop this... Stop saying that scouts main role in life is to be anti-vehicle... it takes taht role away from the heavies and the assaults and the logis who are supposed to be doing this stuff. Second no tank should be a solo-able thing!!! Why do you all insist that the lightest dropsuit class in the game should be able to destroy the most heavy vehicle inthe game, BY ITSELF? This makes no logical sense whatsoever. That's like trying to claim that a frigate should have enough guns and firepower to solo kill a dreadnaught in EVE... It's not gonna happen. Third, you don't just have freaking REs as a scout!!! If you truly wanna go tank hunting in a scout, then ONE RE + proto-AV nades + skilled up PLASMA CANNON or SWARM LAUNCHER still gets you a very decen chance to kill a tank!!! Whining about the RE thing is just plain dumb as you have so many other tools to use in the toolbox!!!! First: Scouts are for CQC AV. Assault/Commando only get close enough to toss an AV grenade. Logi don't usually put RE on thanks. They do AV with Proxies & Remote traps on the road. Sentinels are for long range AV. Second: In WWII many people soloed Tanks. They would dig a shallow trench narrower than the tank tread and lay in it holding a magnetic tank mine on their chest. When the tank rolled over them they would reach up and place the mine on the belly of the tank. Then the guy would have to prey the tank kept going as you don't want to be under a tank mine when it blows up. Third: It is not so much that no tank should be solo-able, as no tank should be solo-able with only one weapon. To solo a Tank a Scout has to use Remote Explosives, AV Grenades, and a Swarm Launcher or Plasma Cannon. Without the Remote Explosives there chances of getting a kill without help are very low. Keep in mind that to use Remote Explosives a Scout has to get close enough to the Tank to risk getting run over, or squished against a wall. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 532	Posted - 2014.11.21 20:45:00 - [388] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Bluntly this needs to happen. Equipment substitutions and lemming rushes via uplink replace real tactics and a need for thought in DUST. People claim tthat this limits tactical options but the current meta is you spam or you lose. There is no tactical flexibility. There is room for only one tactic. For every advantage on the field you must make a sacrifice. The current equipment rules require players to sacrifice nothing. Bandwidth will force a meta change. In my opinion that alone is more than compensation for every drawback. Well, yeah, but thats largely because you in your regularly stated gameplay style (Heavy, some scout, some AV, maybe a tank iirc) don't actually perform much of an aspect in the role aside from benefitting from the support you receive. For us over here who do the regular daily work of Logistics (and hate the frikin spamming whores as much as anyone else) and do see the downsides to this understand the gameplay it will create. Blobbing. Lots of it. Then, more QQing about Heavy/Logi blobbing. Then followthrough nerfs on Logis, Heavies, blobbing and blobbing gameplay. While scouts run off into the night imbalanced as ever. Blobbing has a place in gameplay here. But it shouldn't be the veritable only option of gameplay for the gimpiest class with the highest amount of investment both in SP and ISK. And it really shouldn't be the predominant gameplay no matter how cursory a nod it is to TEAMWORK. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 532	Posted - 2014.11.21 20:53:00 - [389] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: Stop this... Stop saying that scouts main role in life is to be anti-vehicle... it takes taht role away from the heavies and the assaults and the logis who are supposed to be doing this stuff. Second no tank should be a solo-able thing!!! Why do you all insist that the lightest dropsuit class in the game should be able to destroy the most heavy vehicle inthe game, BY ITSELF? This makes no logical sense whatsoever. That's like trying to claim that a frigate should have enough guns and firepower to solo kill a dreadnaught in EVE... It's not gonna happen. Third, you don't just have freaking REs as a scout!!! If you truly wanna go tank hunting in a scout, then ONE RE + proto-AV nades + skilled up PLASMA CANNON or SWARM LAUNCHER still gets you a very decen chance to kill a tank!!! Whining about the RE thing is just plain dumb as you have so many other tools to use in the toolbox!!!! First: Scouts are for CQC AV. Assault/Commando only get close enough to toss an AV grenade. Logi don't usually put RE on thanks. They do AV with Proxies & Remote traps on the road. Sentinels are for long range AV. Second: In WWII many people soloed Tanks. They would dig a shallow trench narrower than the tank tread and lay in it holding a magnetic tank mine on their chest. When the tank rolled over them they would reach up and place the mine on the belly of the tank. Then the guy would have to prey the tank kept going as you don't want to be under a tank mine when it blows up. Third: It is not so much that no tank should be solo-able, as no tank should be solo-able with only one weapon. To solo a Tank a Scout has to use Remote Explosives, AV Grenades, and a Swarm Launcher or Plasma Cannon. Without the Remote Explosives there chances of getting a kill without help are very low. Keep in mind that to use Remote Explosives a Scout has to get close enough to the Tank to risk getting run over, or squished against a wall. Sorry Fox, and I hate to disagree with you on fundamentals since I recognize you as representing one of DUSTs few actual educational institutions but scouts are not "for" CQC AV. They are "for" Recon, Advance Insertion and Flanking manuevers. Scouts, by the grace of the lopsided portfolio of base stats they were granted in 1.8 just happen to be currently the best out of the box base equipped suit to do CQC AV by RE. The imbalance in that is verifiable by their ability to do both CQC AV by RE AND CQC AV by swarm or PLC and AV nade WITH THE SAME SUIT FITTING. Simultaneous. Yes, I can AV from my Logi with a swarm/plc and nade or PE's OR I can speed+damp tank and run in REs. But its TWO seperate suits, two different fits. Because Logi base stats suck, and scout base stats are imbalanced. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5238	Posted - 2014.11.21 20:56:00 - [390] - Quote No dude. Heavies will eat a nerf before they touch logis after this. I think that's the misunderstanding. You can't touch logis much anymore given their fragility and weakness in combat. If anything bandwidth allows CCP wiggle room to boost a lot of logi aspects and it might come to pass that logis join commando suits as the kings of regen if that change happens. There's a lot of assumption going on here. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 532	Posted - 2014.11.21 21:20:00 - [391] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: No dude. Heavies will eat a nerf before they touch logis after this. I think that's the misunderstanding. You can't touch logis much anymore given their fragility and weakness in combat. If anything bandwidth allows CCP wiggle room to boost a lot of logi aspects and it might come to pass that logis join commando suits as the kings of regen if that change happens. There's a lot of assumption going on here. Finally my gameplay doesn't involve SOME AV. I spend more time running AV than anything else. Everything else is a sideline. lol, I know you've been in our "buffing" thread and there ain't nuthin' in there, proposed or accepted, that's going to take the venom out of what BW is going to do us. We should have worthwhile regen abilities already (not this 3 hp bs) and don't. And by all projections won't. All other projected or accepted stats are the same, terribly gimped, right down the list- profile, precision, speed, HP, weapons- all of it. Thats not an assumption, thats whats on the table. I understand we can only theorize which cards are left in the deck, but based whats out already we know which ones aren't. And of what could be left, BW limits kills what the class could do. Kill SPAM. Kill it dead, to borrow a phrase, by fire. But don't kill DUSTs Tactical Logistics side with it! There are other ways. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 532	Posted - 2014.11.21 21:21:00 - [392] - Quote And AV as a primary forte is an admirable, noble and worthwhile cause, but recognize its a narrow discipline. Combat Logistics has way more moving parts. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1297	Posted - 2014.11.21 22:56:00 - [393] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Bluntly this needs to happen. Equipment substitutions and lemming rushes via uplink replace real tactics and a need for thought in DUST. People claim tthat this limits tactical options but the current meta is you spam or you lose. There is no tactical flexibility. There is room for only one tactic. For every advantage on the field you must make a sacrifice. The current equipment rules require players to sacrifice nothing. Bandwidth will force a meta change. In my opinion that alone is more than compensation for every drawback. Bluntly change needs to happen but that doesn't mean this change. I would also point out that it's pretty easy to establish a position that the potential meta change is "more than compensation for every drawback" when you aren't the one being directly effected. That said, I am willing to keep an open mind on this and would like to see what logi suit / role reworks are developing as well and how this might tie in. The bandwidth concept as currently described would would achieve the lower equipment level deployed per match...however, it would potentailly cripple the Logi's that make support play daily business and often find themselves relying on multiple equipment passes and specialized suit fits to carry the day for their squad or team. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Yonkou Ifrit A.G.E.N.T.S. O.F. S.M.I.T.H. 247	Posted - 2014.11.21 23:03:00 - [394] - Quote Maybe is time to leave the game, with this changes play this game is like kill myself, CCP you going to loose a lot of people with this changes. ¿Quieres ser un A.G.E.N.T.? Lee la descripción de mi corporación.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 536	Posted - 2014.11.21 23:12:00 - [395] - Quote Yonkou Ifrit wrote: Maybe is time to leave the game, with this changes play this game is like kill myself, CCP you going to loose a lot of people with this changes. Maaan, I am NOT ready to go that far. YET. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Moonracer2000 Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 833	Posted - 2014.11.22 07:36:00 - [396] - Quote I like the idea of cutting down equipment spam and buffing the logi role of equipment but BW seems necessarily complicated. Lots of coding for all equipment and each suit. Lots for players to keep track of. A simpler system: Calculate the max number of deployables per player in a match allowable while keeping performance. Take that average and set a hard cap per player (or suit type). [example] If the average is 3 you could allow 1 for heavies, 4 for logis and 2 for all other suits. If you want to keep 4 pieces of equipment on the map you stay as a logi. If you switch to a heavy you lose all but one piece of equipment on the field. REs and proxies might require a separate counter? Change Equipment: Another though I had is that it might make sense to change how deployable equipment works to make it less attractive to spam. Currently uplinks and hives favor defensive rather than offensive tactics. Right now I can spam uplinks at the beginning of a match and rake in quite a few WPs without maintaining them at all. Uplinks: reduce the number of spawns and number that can be deployed at once but greatly increase how many are carried. Now they allow the logi to better support an offensive squad. I can only put down one at a time but I can do so repeatedly with one suit and move across the map (much more fun/fewer undefended uplinks). [] Nanohives*: pretty much the same thing. Make repping hives more like a big stack of compact hives and you have a quick supply of health and ammo that you can only drop one at a time.
Kaze Eyrou Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 978	Posted - 2014.11.22 07:49:00 - [397] - Quote Loving the changes as teams become reliant on Logistics players to give them support instead of allowing them to spam equipment everywhere, as well as preventing "Logi Bombs" (so to speak) in city nodes, which have been blamed for frame rate and fun reduction. I have a question regarding equipment BW vs Max Active that you don't cover in your example. I'll attempt to make my own example: A)Spawn in Standard Logi Bandwidth Capacity 16 Equipment Slots123 EquipmentUplinkNanohiveNanohive To get an understanding, I'll explain the equipment. 1) R-9 Uplink 2) X-3 Quantum Nanohives 3) X-3 Quantum Nanohives Yes, this is not an ideal setup, but it's just to explain my example. Deployment Sequence1234 Deployed EquipmentR-9R-9X-3X-3 So far, the Logistics player has used up 4 equipment with 2 left on his person. As we know, X-3s have a Max Active of 2. However, the Bandwidth Limit has also already been reached too. So what happens when... Deployment Sequence5? Deployed EquipmentAttempt to deploy X-3 Logically, we know only 2 X-3s can be active at the same time, so it would be feasible for the 1st X-3 to pop, given the Max Active Limit was reached first. The R-9 Uplinks remain untouched, the 2nd X-3 stays, and the 3rd X-3 actives and rainbows and unicorns appear. My fear is that they don't appear and the system checks the Bandwidth Limit first... Deployment Sequence12345 Deployed Equipment~~R-9~~R-9~~X-3~~X-3X-3 Resulting in the above. Can you shed some light on this Rattati? Rainbows and unicorns or will Logistics players have to extreme micromanage to a level beyond OCD? EDIT: BLEH! Time to clean this up. Need to remember to preview before posting... CB Vet // Logi Bro // @KazeEyrou CIO ("Proto Forum Warrior") Learning Coalition & RTG
bwd23 S.A.L.U.K.I. Capital Punishment. 0	Posted - 2014.11.22 11:33:00 - [398] - Quote We all know something needs to be done about spam, however the BW idea is bad. Lets say as a logi I drop triage hives, uplinks, and PEs all in perfect spots. In the new meta when I die I can help the team much more by being afk in the redline than going to another role and having all that work disappear. The BW idea encourages afking. Now to my idea. have a 40 meter "red zone" around supply depots where equipment may not be dropped. I am positive this will get rid of nearly 90% of spam. Simple and effective! On a sidenote I believe the lag is somehow caused by the pulsing of lots of uplinks/nanos.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4681	Posted - 2014.11.22 12:36:00 - [399] - Quote Kaze Eyrou wrote: Loving the changes as teams become reliant on Logistics players to give them support instead of allowing them to spam equipment everywhere, as well as preventing "Logi Bombs" (so to speak) in city nodes, which have been blamed for frame rate and fun reduction. I have a question regarding equipment BW vs Max Active that you don't cover in your example. I'll attempt to make my own example: Quote: A) Spawn in Standard Logi Bandwidth Capacity: 16 Equipment Slots: 1 2 3 Equipment: 1) Uplink 2) Nanohive 3)Nanohive To get an understanding, I'll explain the equipment. 1) R-9 Uplink 2) X-3 Quantum Nanohives 3) X-3 Quantum Nanohives Yes, this is not an ideal setup, but it's just to explain my example. Quote: Deployment Sequence: 1 2 3 4 Deployed Equipment: (1) R-9 (2) R-9 (3) X-3 (4) X-3 So far, the Logistics player has used up 4 equipment with 2 left on his person. As we know, X-3s have a Max Active of 2. However, the Bandwidth Limit has also already been reached too. So what happens when... Quote: Deployment Sequence: 5? Deployed Equipment: Attempt to deploy X-3 Logically, we know only 2 X-3s can be active at the same time, so it would be feasible for the 1st X-3 to pop, given the Max Active Limit was reached first. The R-9 Uplinks remain untouched, the 2nd X-3 stays, and the 3rd X-3 actives and rainbows and unicorns appear. My fear is that they don't appear and the system checks the Bandwidth Limit first... Quote: Deployment Sequence: 1 2 3 4 5 Deployed Equipment ~~(1) R-9~~ (2) R-9 ~~(3)X-3~~ (4)X-3 (5)X-3 Resulting in the above. Can you shed some light on this Rattati? Rainbows and unicorns or will Logistics players have to extreme micromanage to a level beyond OCD? EDIT: Cleaned-up/formatting. Furthermore, the Logistics role in your spreadsheet show Equipment Slots as having 2 for Standard, 3 for Advanced, and 4 for Prototype. I will put my tinfoil hat on when I say this but, are we to believe that the Logistics class will follow that format across all racial logistics dropsuits for the upcoming rollout of Equipment Bandwidth? Hm. Interesting. Would definitely have to have the algorithm check in the proper order. What might be even better is if we could make it so it popped EQ of the same type if it could. So, if I dropped 3 links, then 3 hives, and wanted to drop another hive, it would preferentially pop the first hive and not the first uplink. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5242	Posted - 2014.11.22 13:05:00 - [400] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: And AV as a primary forte is an admirable, noble and worthwhile cause, but recognize its a narrow discipline. Combat Logistics has way more moving parts. I run everything. Dont mistake my preference for vehicle destruction for exclusion. I started DUST playing logi. I still maintain logistics fits and periodically play logi to keep on top of the changes to the role and how things work. The only thing in DUST I don't run is dropships, solely due to my inability to not crash. I suck at them. But I do my homework. And I never make serious posts without familiarizing myself with the meta behind usage and a clear understanding of how they work. These changes will make dedicated logis who know what they are doing pure gold and more valuable than any other battlefield class while marginalizing people who use tge logi suit solely to make their game less risky or hard. Logistics players are currently not a critical resource. With changes to bandwidth, logis who can think, plan and react will be more valuable to a team than any number of sentinels or scouts. Logis should be the fulcrum which makes the team work, not the role that drops equipment then shoves a rep leash up a fat man's ass. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.

I-Shayz-I I----------I 5147	Posted - 2014.11.22 14:30:00 - [401] - Quote Why is this such an issue for people? Here's the better solution for how to fix equipment spam in combination with bandwidth in order to make everyone happy: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=181929&find=unread 7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 2265	Posted - 2014.11.22 15:48:00 - [402] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: Why not allow dropsuits to overload their bandwidth at the expense of their Shields? Still can't carry more equipment, but you could field more equipment by diverting power from your shields to the transmitter that keeps the equipment "alive" Maybe every BW point overloaded costs you 10 shield HP, 5 regen/sec and adds 1 sec to your delays? Maybe for the frames that have combat efficient base stats to start with, but for the Logistics class, who don't, that won't help enough. IDK how I missed this. What won't this help and why isn't it enough for logi? Logi don't have the combat stats to do the trade off, though they shouldn't need to do the trade off. If people start running in coordinated squads (which is really what should be encouraged), the logi won't need to support more BW than he can carry. I don't really understand your problem with the idea. Gò¡Gê¬Gò«(Gùú_Gùó)Gò¡Gê¬Gò«
S0Lid 5N4K3 Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 0	Posted - 2014.11.22 18:41:00 - [403] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear Players Based on a lot of feedback, both from CPM, Community and previous CCP designs, one of the things we are able to conjure up is the much wanted Equipment Bandwidth feature. * We want to fix Equipment spam to increase framerate * We want Quality over Quantity Equipment gameplay * We want a solid Logistics progression at using Equipment * We want Logistics to excel at using Equipment, and other roles less so * We want Equipment diversity Now, we want to get your feedback as early as possible, so chime in. But here are some clarifications of intent. Equipment Limit The main design is primarily based off of Drones in EVE. Every dropsuit has a built-in Equipment Controller, which has a certain Bandwidth Capacity (in MHz). That Controller Bandwidth is used to manage deployed Equipment through constant signaling. Each piece of deployed Equipment has a different Bandwidth Cost (or Usage). Note that all Equipment still has the same current limitations of GÇPdeployed per typeGÇ£. Obviously Logistics are made for this purpose, and some Logistics more than others. In the case of deployed Equipment Bandwidth exceeding the Players current Bandwidth, deployed Equipment self-destructs instantly, in the sequence it was deployed. In the attached spreadsheet, we show an example of such a scenario. This feature will allow proper Logistics to excel at their deployment role, while keeping Assaults & Commandos relatively useful and Scouts will be diminished in capability as they were never meant to be a king of deployables, the additional slot was added for the Cloak Field. Quality over Quantity We want players to use the best Equipment they have at their disposal. ThatGÇÖs why Bandwidth will not increase with item tiers. We also have the capability and intent to reduce Scan Profile with tiers, so Advanced and Complex gear is not as easy to scan. However, this also allows us to increase the carried amount, for rapid redeployment. Spawn first Nanohive and Drop Uplink at point A, redeploy to Objective B, spawn second Nanohive and Drop Uplink, and so on. Stay out of trouble and you wonGÇÖt need to switch or restock for quite some time. Progression Logistics will have the, by far, the highest Bandwidth, with Caldari and Amarr the highest. We may need to reword or change some of their role bonuses. Bandwith progression will follow the Equipment slot progression so a Logistics player can almost always use their full allotment of deployable Equipment. Logistics vs other Dropsuits One of the key aspects of this proposal is that all Equipment is tied to the active Dropsuit of the Player. Switch from a suit with a high Bandwidth to another suit with lower Bandwidth, and the signal is lost. This means that starting as a Logistics dropsuit, throw down as much cheap Equipment as possible, then switch into another Logistics dropsuit at a Supply Depot, repeat and then finally switch into another role, Sentinel, Scout, Assault or Commando, will not be possible anymore. Diversity We can now influence players to use more Proximity Mines for example, as Scan Profile will allow them to be hidden from low Precision Vehicle Players, as well as having a lower Bandwidth Cost, allowing more at the same time, without allowing more Uplinks and Nanohives. Extra damage wouldnGÇÖt hurt either. Now, to the numbers found in this spreadsheet. Please remember that these numbers are placeholders, and are definitely up for debate so form your arguments for changes into clear and concise statements. Please read the Example as well, it should explain the whole design clearly. Again, your feedback and input is appreciated. One suggestion to avoid a catastrophic, potentially game-breaking equipment nerf: don't destroy equipment whenever bandwidth is too low; merely deacivate it, then allow it to reactivate if/when bandwidth is restored.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 543	Posted - 2014.11.22 21:01:00 - [404] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: Why not allow dropsuits to overload their bandwidth at the expense of their Shields? Still can't carry more equipment, but you could field more equipment by diverting power from your shields to the transmitter that keeps the equipment "alive" Maybe every BW point overloaded costs you 10 shield HP, 5 regen/sec and adds 1 sec to your delays? Maybe for the frames that have combat efficient base stats to start with, but for the Logistics class, who don't, that won't help enough. IDK how I missed this. What won't this help and why isn't it enough for logi? Logi don't have the combat stats to do the trade off, though they shouldn't need to do the trade off. If people start running in coordinated squads (which is really what should be encouraged), the logi won't need to support more BW than he can carry. I don't really understand your problem with the idea. The idea (yours) as proposed saps HP from suits already gimped HP side, with no equitable buffs to ewar, movement or weapons use. TLDR: We're already sitting ducks largely, with little to no offensive or defensive capabilities and to equip BW mods will inhibit our ability to make our already meager for expected conditions base stats better even more limited. BW will be of critical concern especially for Logis since ALL of our gameactions within our "maximized" discipline (support) will be constantly under the throttling of BW limits, as the BW idea as proposed stands. Except the ones who live inside the rears of heavies. Those guys dgaf. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 543	Posted - 2014.11.22 21:38:00 - [405] - Quote SO, new idea. I am already a declared fan of Cross' proposed equipment revamp, the one Shayz is talking about, I see it reinforcing Logistics (rightfully) as THE equipment use role and while it will have some adverse effects on certain playstyles it doesn't outright nullify others the way BW does. I am against BW in its entirety, because at it's core it address SPAM (very worthwhile endeavour) but as a collateral cost it also completely eliminates certain Combat Logistics gameplay (which I oppose). SO, since SPAM is the problem AND evidently switching usage of a Logi suit is the method, why not institute some code that tracks the SPAMming actions themselves and once the algorithm recognizes the spammer it a) kicks their ass out of the match completely b) insta-pops ALL equipment they've deployed c) deducts fully from their wallet all associated suit and fitting costs including the frame they were attampting to switch into and d) ALSO calculates up to that point in the match how many SP they would have received and deducts it from their current available SP pool! If their current available is 0 or less than what they would have gotten then they go negative until they generate proper WP to balance the deficit. SO, we already know CCP is more than capable to track player action vs. game result (FW friendlyfire negative points, vehicle driving and acceleration cues moving vehicles around etc.) and script appropriate reponses for the cues. Script a piece of code that when it sees [drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-SWITCH OR SUICIDE-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-SWITCH] all in one particular area it frikin' kicks that ass to the curb and leaves a nice fat CCP bootprint on it. CCP Glinda, now that she's no longer in denial about equipment spamming and the inherent lag it produces, can track and calculate roughly how much equipment it takes, set a worthwhile time limit to the "drop drop drop" element and quantify the algorithm/coding so it can't be broken by [drop-drop-drop-drop-(x action, say squatting down or firing a weapon)-SWITCH-drop-drop...] but still allows for active LOGISTICS which can be very much drop-drop-drop sometimes. Playtesting would be required. Analytics on existing and predicted Logistics use play metrics would be required. Coding would be required. BUT, this is the **** being done anyway to institute BW already and if composed correctly PENALIZES SPAMMERS without victimizing gameplayers. I'm all for growth, balancing and improvement and neccessary changes, especially those that cut down or eliminate exploitation. I'm not for the monthly Calvin and Hobbes comicstrip "New Rule!" method of addressing issues. btw, I am at work again (if I'm going to spend time doing game design, I'm getting paid dude) so if it takes me a bit to respond to responses that's what's up. douses self in gasoline Flame On! Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Syeven Reed T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 1010	Posted - 2014.11.22 21:54:00 - [406] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: SO, new idea. I am already a declared fan of Cross' proposed equipment revamp, the one Shayz is talking about, I see it reinforcing Logistics (rightfully) as THE equipment use role and while it will have some adverse effects on certain playstyles it doesn't outright nullify others the way BW does. I am against BW in its entirety, because at it's core it address SPAM (very worthwhile endeavour) but as a collateral cost it also completely eliminates certain Combat Logistics gameplay (which I oppose). SO, since SPAM is the problem AND evidently switching usage of a Logi suit is the method, why not institute some code that tracks the SPAMming actions themselves and once the algorithm recognizes the spammer it a) kicks their ass out of the match completely b) insta-pops ALL equipment they've deployed c) deducts fully from their wallet all associated suit and fitting costs including the frame they were attampting to switch into and d) ALSO calculates up to that point in the match how many SP they would have received and deducts it from their current available SP pool! If their current available is 0 or less than what they would have gotten then they go negative until they generate proper WP to balance the deficit. SO, we already know CCP is more than capable to track player action vs. game result (FW friendlyfire negative points, vehicle driving and acceleration cues moving vehicles around etc.) and script appropriate reponses for the cues. Script a piece of code that when it sees [drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-SWITCH OR SUICIDE-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-SWITCH] all in one particular area it frikin' kicks that ass to the curb and leaves a nice fat CCP bootprint on it. CCP Glinda, now that she's no longer in denial about equipment spamming and the inherent lag it produces, can track and calculate roughly how much equipment it takes, set a worthwhile time limit to the "drop drop drop" element and quantify the algorithm/coding so it can't be broken by [drop-drop-drop-drop-(x action, say squatting down or firing a weapon)-SWITCH-drop-drop...] but still allows for active LOGISTICS which can be very much drop-drop-drop sometimes. Playtesting would be required. Analytics on existing and predicted Logistics use play metrics would be required. Coding would be required. BUT, this is the **** being done anyway to institute BW already and if composed correctly PENALIZES SPAMMERS without victimizing gameplayers. I'm all for growth, balancing and improvement and neccessary changes, especially those that cut down or eliminate exploitation. I'm not for the monthly Calvin and Hobbes comicstrip "New Rule!" method of addressing issues. btw, I am at work again (if I'm going to spend time doing game design, I'm getting paid dude) so if it takes me a bit to respond to responses that's what's up. douses self in gasoline Flame On! I'm sorry, I don't know how else to put across my feelings towards this so don't take this the wrong way. This idea is stupid. I'll follow this reasoning up. Create a code that tracks spammers and kicks them from matches? Do you have any idea how much trial and error would be involved in doing this? This would create so many more problems than solve them. Aside from that the amount of effort required on what I asume is a very small team would be astronomical. BW is happening, no matter what people have to say about it, so let's leave the new crazy workload ideas out and try to build on what's there lol SCAN ATTEMPT PREVENTED EvE - 21 Day Trial
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 543	Posted - 2014.11.22 22:22:00 - [407] - Quote How much trial and error is involved in ANY aspect of game design? That it's needed (though worthwhile metrics analytics reduces it significantly) isn't justification for immediate proposal dismissal. And, done properly which is completely within CCP devteam/codeing capability, what other issues does it create? And for whom, exactly? Logis? We're already getting the screwjob-hammer under BW as it is. I for one will be way more tolerant of a reasonable time period of "working out the kinks" on something like this since once those kinks are gone, the SPAM problem is handled AND legit gameplay overall isn't affected. Unlike BW, which will require the same trial-and-error-kink-fixing and once it's done, completely negates certain worthwhile gameplay. EDIT: LOL, Hell, under BW EVERYBODY is getting the screwjob-hammer. All fits, all frames, all styles. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5254	Posted - 2014.11.22 22:25:00 - [408] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: How much trial and error is involved in ANY aspect of game design? That it's needed (though worthwhile metrics analytics reduces it significantly) isn't justification for immediate proposal dismissal. And, done properly which is completely within CCP devteam/codeing capability, what other issues does it create? And for whom, exactly? Logis? We're already getting the screwjob-hammer under BW as it is. I for one will be way more tolerant of a reasonable time period of "working out the kinks" on something like this since once those kinks are gone, the SPAM problem is handled AND legit gameplay overall isn't affected. Unlike BW, which will require the same trial-and-error-kink-fixing and once it's done, completely negates certain worthwhile gameplay. Which worthwhile gameplay, specifically, are you speaking of? EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 543	Posted - 2014.11.22 22:29:00 - [409] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: How much trial and error is involved in ANY aspect of game design? That it's needed (though worthwhile metrics analytics reduces it significantly) isn't justification for immediate proposal dismissal. And, done properly which is completely within CCP devteam/codeing capability, what other issues does it create? And for whom, exactly? Logis? We're already getting the screwjob-hammer under BW as it is. I for one will be way more tolerant of a reasonable time period of "working out the kinks" on something like this since once those kinks are gone, the SPAM problem is handled AND legit gameplay overall isn't affected. Unlike BW, which will require the same trial-and-error-kink-fixing and once it's done, completely negates certain worthwhile gameplay. Which worthwhile gameplay, specifically, are you speaking of? Position creation and reinforcement concurrent with active squad supply and replenishment, both for Anti-Infantry and Anti-Vehicle contexts. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5254	Posted - 2014.11.22 22:35:00 - [410] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: How much trial and error is involved in ANY aspect of game design? That it's needed (though worthwhile metrics analytics reduces it significantly) isn't justification for immediate proposal dismissal. And, done properly which is completely within CCP devteam/codeing capability, what other issues does it create? And for whom, exactly? Logis? We're already getting the screwjob-hammer under BW as it is. I for one will be way more tolerant of a reasonable time period of "working out the kinks" on something like this since once those kinks are gone, the SPAM problem is handled AND legit gameplay overall isn't affected. Unlike BW, which will require the same trial-and-error-kink-fixing and once it's done, completely negates certain worthwhile gameplay. Which worthwhile gameplay, specifically, are you speaking of? Position creation and reinforcement concurrent with active squad supply and replenishment, both for Anti-Infantry and Anti-Vehicle contexts. Please clarify without the buzzwords. With examples. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 543	Posted - 2014.11.22 22:48:00 - [411] - Quote Okay, this is part of a reponse to more or less the same question I answered last night. Like I said before, I'm at work so cant compose a whole new explanation but this will help. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=181517&find=unread Don't judge, it's not my thread and I entered to respond to some responses in it and a convo grew from there. el OPERATOR wrote: I will add a 4th too, about Logistics play. There is a rampant school of thought that Logis belong anchored to heavies keeping beams on them, feeding them ammo and when they die, if they ask, reviving them. I do not attend this school. I am very effective at its techniques, top-caliber PC proven against PC teams NO ONE wanted to challenge, but do not come from that school. I am an understudy of Sun Tzu's School of Upholstery. Specifically a student and practitioner of "Holding Down the Pillow". Here, in DUST, that means that while yes, I am absolutley committed to supporting my corpmate fatties and everyone else in my squad and team, I also am constantly engaged in Logistically ensuring that squad and team can keep control of the areas we want. Sometimes that does mean leaving my heavies with some hives to keep them warm, and trotting off to plant a minefield so tanks don't just barrell right in on us or another squad, setting a link/hive set for another group to spawn etc. This sort of thing is Team Support facilitated by Map Control through Tactical Combat Logistics work . It isn't easy, or a huge WP farm which is why not too many people do it. And the particulars of it change every match, depending on what sorts of opposition we face. And as the enemies adapt to overcome, I adapt to overcome. This methodology is why I am one of the few people rarely trapped behind a redline, and when the random skirm I'm in has my blueberries trapped I can get them out (sometimes. It is warfare after all, and there's little accounting for classic lack of wherewithal, mine or the blues) This methodology, while as adaptable as I am and am willing to be, will be seriously negatively impacted by BW limitations. That seriously negatively impacts what drew me HARD to this game in the first place, the Field Strategy aspect and the available tools to execute. I'm all for limiting SPAM, I hate to limit playstyle too, yes, admittedly, especially, part of mine . EDITS complete Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4687	Posted - 2014.11.22 23:20:00 - [412] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: SO, new idea. I am already a declared fan of Cross' proposed equipment revamp, the one Shayz is talking about, I see it reinforcing Logistics (rightfully) as THE equipment use role and while it will have some adverse effects on certain playstyles it doesn't outright nullify others the way BW does. I am against BW in its entirety, because at it's core it address SPAM (very worthwhile endeavour) but as a collateral cost it also completely eliminates certain Combat Logistics gameplay (which I oppose). SO, since SPAM is the problem AND evidently switching usage of a Logi suit is the method, why not institute some code that tracks the SPAMming actions themselves and once the algorithm recognizes the spammer it a) kicks their ass out of the match completely b) insta-pops ALL equipment they've deployed c) deducts fully from their wallet all associated suit and fitting costs including the frame they were attampting to switch into and d) ALSO calculates up to that point in the match how many SP they would have received and deducts it from their current available SP pool! If their current available is 0 or less than what they would have gotten then they go negative until they generate proper WP to balance the deficit. SO, we already know CCP is more than capable to track player action vs. game result (FW friendlyfire negative points, vehicle driving and acceleration cues moving vehicles around etc.) and script appropriate reponses for the cues. Script a piece of code that when it sees [drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-SWITCH OR SUICIDE-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-SWITCH] all in one particular area it frikin' kicks that ass to the curb and leaves a nice fat CCP bootprint on it. CCP Glinda, now that she's no longer in denial about equipment spamming and the inherent lag it produces, can track and calculate roughly how much equipment it takes, set a worthwhile time limit to the "drop drop drop" element and quantify the algorithm/coding so it can't be broken by [drop-drop-drop-drop-(x action, say squatting down or firing a weapon)-SWITCH-drop-drop...] but still allows for active LOGISTICS which can be very much drop-drop-drop sometimes. Playtesting would be required. Analytics on existing and predicted Logistics use play metrics would be required. Coding would be required. BUT, this is the **** being done anyway to institute BW already and if composed correctly PENALIZES SPAMMERS without victimizing gameplayers. I'm all for growth, balancing and improvement and neccessary changes, especially those that cut down or eliminate exploitation. I'm not for the monthly Calvin and Hobbes comicstrip "New Rule!" method of addressing issues. btw, I am at work again (if I'm going to spend time doing game design, I'm getting paid dude) so if it takes me a bit to respond to responses that's what's up. douses self in gasoline Flame On! Glad to see CCP Glinda getting some mileage, but this is obviously crazy talk. Got at least one person to go for it tho... (The godfather of tactical logistics)
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 543	Posted - 2014.11.22 23:25:00 - [413] - Quote There's no place like Logic , John, so yeah, CCP Glinda's going on tour. And to paraphrase someone, somewhere, just dismissing an idea outright without saying why or showing how it's otherwise unreasonable or unworkable really just makes the dissmisser appear....dumb or something.... Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 2267	Posted - 2014.11.22 23:32:00 - [414] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: Why not allow dropsuits to overload their bandwidth at the expense of their Shields? Still can't carry more equipment, but you could field more equipment by diverting power from your shields to the transmitter that keeps the equipment "alive" Maybe every BW point overloaded costs you 10 shield HP, 5 regen/sec and adds 1 sec to your delays? Maybe for the frames that have combat efficient base stats to start with, but for the Logistics class, who don't, that won't help enough. IDK how I missed this. What won't this help and why isn't it enough for logi? Logi don't have the combat stats to do the trade off, though they shouldn't need to do the trade off. If people start running in coordinated squads (which is really what should be encouraged), the logi won't need to support more BW than he can carry. I don't really understand your problem with the idea. The idea (yours) as proposed saps HP from suits already gimped HP side, with no equitable buffs to ewar, movement or weapons use. TLDR: We're already sitting ducks largely, with little to no offensive or defensive capabilities and to equip BW mods will inhibit our ability to make our already meager for expected conditions base stats better even more limited. BW will be of critical concern especially for Logis since ALL of our gameactions within our "maximized" discipline (support) will be constantly under the throttling of BW limits, as the BW idea as proposed stands. Except the ones who live inside the rears of heavies. Those guys dgaf. So even though I specifically state that "Logis shouldn't need to do the trade off" you're still saying that they should? I mean, really? Your opposition to this makes me think that you're an equipment spammer yourself. The idea I proposed is a workaround for non-Logis to have the option to field more equipment at the expense of tank, it isn't intended to be something to allow Logis to uberspam equipment. Those that do choose to make that decision, well, they can suffer with the abysmal tank then. Gò¡Gê¬Gò«(Gùú_Gùó)Gò¡Gê¬Gò«
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 543	Posted - 2014.11.23 00:15:00 - [415] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: Why not allow dropsuits to overload their bandwidth at the expense of their Shields? Still can't carry more equipment, but you could field more equipment by diverting power from your shields to the transmitter that keeps the equipment "alive" Maybe every BW point overloaded costs you 10 shield HP, 5 regen/sec and adds 1 sec to your delays? Maybe for the frames that have combat efficient base stats to start with, but for the Logistics class, who don't, that won't help enough. IDK how I missed this. What won't this help and why isn't it enough for logi? Logi don't have the combat stats to do the trade off, though they shouldn't need to do the trade off. If people start running in coordinated squads (which is really what should be encouraged), the logi won't need to support more BW than he can carry. I don't really understand your problem with the idea. The idea (yours) as proposed saps HP from suits already gimped HP side, with no equitable buffs to ewar, movement or weapons use. TLDR: We're already sitting ducks largely, with little to no offensive or defensive capabilities and to equip BW mods will inhibit our ability to make our already meager for expected conditions base stats better even more limited. BW will be of critical concern especially for Logis since ALL of our gameactions within our "maximized" discipline (support) will be constantly under the throttling of BW limits, as the BW idea as proposed stands. Except the ones who live inside the rears of heavies. Those guys dgaf. So even though I specifically state that "Logis shouldn't need to do the trade off" you're still saying that they should? I mean, really? Your opposition to this makes me think that you're an equipment spammer yourself. The idea I proposed is a workaround for non-Logis to have the option to field more equipment at the expense of tank, it isn't intended to be something to allow Logis to uberspam equipment. Those that do choose to make that decision, well, they can suffer with the abysmal tank then. I'm saying that to facilitate actual Combat Logistics we will. And no, I'm not a spammer. I'm a fully invested, 100% DS Upgrades fully protoed in 3 of the 4 Logistics suits, with my 4th not far off, PC vetted, open-beta vet LOGI. A Logi who understands Strategically what it takes to take, hold and reinforce the MAP, not just feed ammo and lash on a heavy. My tank is abysmal (like most Logis) already especially my fits for PC (usually in the 4-500 total hp range. Which is where BW extension as a module doesn't sit well with me. You know who would like that? The spammer looking to spam, switch, and never switch back. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
jace silencerww D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 96	Posted - 2014.11.23 01:09:00 - [416] - Quote CCP Rattati what about proximity mines? if I throw them out (lets say 10 total-3 basic, 3 adv, 4 proto) and change off my logi to an Minnie assault to protect an objective near my prox mines.. what happens to them?
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 2267	Posted - 2014.11.23 01:30:00 - [417] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: I'm saying that to facilitate actual Combat Logistics we will. And no, I'm not a spammer. I'm a fully invested, 100% DS Upgrades fully protoed in 3 of the 4 Logistics suits, with my 4th not far off, PC vetted, open-beta vet LOGI. A Logi who understands Strategically what it takes to take, hold and reinforce the MAP, not just feed ammo and lash on a heavy. My tank is abysmal (like most Logis) already especially my fits for PC (usually in the 4-500 total hp range. Which is where BW extension as a module doesn't sit well with me. You know who would like that? The spammer looking to spam, switch, and never switch back. Alright so you're superlogi? Is that what you're saying? You want the ability to OMA all of your teams logi abilities? I've been a logi since my day one (Mordus), I know what it takes to support my squad and what you're describing is not that. You're describing someone who wants to be superlogi, responsible for all of the equipment for your entire team. Where did I say it would be a module? I never said that, I was proposing that it be possible to trade tank for added bandwidth. The idea as proposed would allow for someone to swap for a spawn to another dropsuit while allowing their equipment to remain (so it didn't hobble their team). Also, I'm curious, did you really take Dropsuit Upgrades to 5? Gò¡Gê¬Gò«(Gùú_Gùó)Gò¡Gê¬Gò«
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 543	Posted - 2014.11.23 02:16:00 - [418] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: I'm saying that to facilitate actual Combat Logistics we will. And no, I'm not a spammer. I'm a fully invested, 100% DS Upgrades fully protoed in 3 of the 4 Logistics suits, with my 4th not far off, PC vetted, open-beta vet LOGI. A Logi who understands Strategically what it takes to take, hold and reinforce the MAP, not just feed ammo and lash on a heavy. My tank is abysmal (like most Logis) already especially my fits for PC (usually in the 4-500 total hp range. Which is where BW extension as a module doesn't sit well with me. You know who would like that? The spammer looking to spam, switch, and never switch back. Alright so you're superlogi? Is that what you're saying? You want the ability to OMA all of your teams logi abilities? I've been a logi since my day one (Mordus), I know what it takes to support my squad and what you're describing is not that. You're describing someone who wants to be superlogi, responsible for all of the equipment for your entire team. Where did I say it would be a module? I never said that, I was proposing that it be possible to trade tank for added bandwidth. The idea as proposed would allow for someone to swap for a spawn to another dropsuit while allowing their equipment to remain (so it didn't hobble their team). Also, I'm curious, did you really take Dropsuit Upgrades to 5? What you described was a module, one for the other. I guess it could be an always on passive thing but with the lowering of HP I don't think I was unreasonable in concluding you were proposing a module. Its not about superlogi, its about specific suit bonuses being tied to specific equipment types so to get full usage of all available tools as conditions dictate. I use all the items across all the fits but in those times and places where the best possible is really what's needed I actually have those to draw from as well. Yes, Dropsuit Upgrades skilltree 100%. I don't alt, or use a training character. Not for forums either. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4687	Posted - 2014.11.23 03:27:00 - [419] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: There's no place like Logic , John, so yeah, CCP Glinda's going on tour. And to paraphrase someone, somewhere, just dismissing an idea outright without saying why or showing how it's otherwise unreasonable or unworkable really just makes the dissmisser appear....dumb or something.... Hmmm.... (The godfather of tactical logistics)
jace silencerww D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 96	Posted - 2014.11.23 06:12:00 - [420] - Quote CCP Rattati I looked but could not find it if you covered it already but can you answer this please what about proximity mines? if I throw them out (lets say 10 total-3 basic, 3 adv, 4 proto) and change off my logi to an Minnie assault to protect an objective where my prox mines are deployed.... what happens to them with this bandwidth bit?

Cass Caul 1709	Posted - 2014.11.23 08:14:00 - [421] - Quote Kinda fed up with all this "Go Proto or Go Home" nonsense. Rattati, since the hotfixes have started when you crippled the Cloak field into 0/5/10% dampening progression but kept that 10% a necessary aspect for 3 of the 4 scouts to participate in stealth, have only continuously moved the divide between new players and Vets. This bandwidth is nonsense really only drives that home.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4691	Posted - 2014.11.23 12:26:00 - [422] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: Kinda fed up with all this "Go Proto or Go Home" nonsense. Rattati, since the hotfixes have started when you crippled the Cloak field into 0/5/10% dampening progression but kept that 10% a necessary aspect for 3 of the 4 scouts to participate in stealth, have only continuously moved the divide between new players and Vets. This bandwidth is nonsense really only drives that home. I'd agree in that this is easily the biggest problem with the proposal. It incentivizes the use of proto way too much. Why not make it a part of the dropsuit command skill instead, Rattati? I almost suggested that we at least do that for logi suits, but I'm not interested In gettig Into any major class warfare here, so make it for everyone. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Haerr 1987	Posted - 2014.11.23 14:30:00 - [423] - Quote is there a specific reason to why suits do not have normalised eq slots and bandwidth? fighter jets
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6126	Posted - 2014.11.23 18:31:00 - [424] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: Kinda fed up with all this "Go Proto or Go Home" nonsense. Rattati, since the hotfixes have started when you crippled the Cloak field into 0/5/10% dampening progression but kept that 10% a necessary aspect for 3 of the 4 scouts to participate in stealth, have only continuously moved the divide between new players and Vets. This bandwidth is nonsense really only drives that home. I would have to agree with this. Proto weapons/modules are really the only viable ones. There is zero point to basic dampeners and precesion enhancers. Zero point in standard shield extenders and damage mods. The great majority of standard level items provide no benefit other than being cheaper with reduced PG/CPU. I can understand wanting to encourage proto use, but there is a difference between encouraging it, and making it the only viable option. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5277	Posted - 2014.11.24 11:19:00 - [425] - Quote Personally I think bandwidth should be set based on dropsuit class, not based upon tier. Make them all capable of running the same number of deployables. Just make it so each stack of deployables they carry can fill that BW. So if you carry three types of hives, one STD, ADV and PRO make it so you can drop enough to eat the BW. So you can carry boat tons of crappy fire and forget trash that won't last long... or you can carry a few quality pieces. But if you throw all of your STD hives you're using all of the bandwidth till they pop. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 343	Posted - 2014.11.24 16:28:00 - [426] - Quote Several things seem to be important to think of right now. Why do dedicated support player like myself switch suits after they deployed equipment? My reason for that is simple. After Tank 514 hit us hard, I was fed up with OP Vehicles and skilled into AV stuff. First it was just remotes/proxies, later when the MinCommando came out I skilled that to 5 instantly and swarms to 5 as well (P5 now). I switch regularly to my minmando just to support my team, since tanks and DS on rampage hurt my team a lot. Second is the fact, that when I run Logi without a squad, survivability is exactly ZERO, if you don't tank that suit into oblivion, and dump most equipment, at which point it makes more sense to run commando in the first place. So that's what I do (in pubs): I run a Sever with 3 different links for starters, and Minmando with MD SW or CR MD combo. I still suport my team with hives, if I have the feeling peeps around are desperate for Ammo I give away one of my hives. When I see my strategic links go down I suicide very often to get those links up again. This is all support play and not bloody equipment spam! Third why are Logis running Scouts instead of a logi? This is very simple to explain, it's also for team support. If you run a logi, you are worth ****, since if you make a support suit, you have no health to survive a single shotgun blast. So since a smart scout will allways go for the logi first, you die a lot. This however is no fun at all (and a liability in PC), and I can understand every Logi that puts a Amarr scout with lots of Scans and hp on to prevent his squad from being backstabbed. Fourth I only play leash logi in pubs, when in a squad with at least one or two needles and another logi. The reason for that is again survivability. If your suit costs 60-100K isk, you don't want to loose more than 2-3 or you don't make any money. So as soon as I run without a squad that backs me up, playing logi (with a decent suit) is out of the question. To the changes. Reducing spawns per Link and having more links on the suit This will lead to the following scenario. In PC, everybody and his mom will bring Links (it's already pretty much like that as far as I know) When you spawn on a link, you will put down another one in that place, or close to it, because otherwise you risk loosing that spawn place shortly. We will see piles of links just because of that. Also we will not see links in the rear (strategic ones) as much anymore, because if they get drained in 5 spawns, it's not worth the hassle. What I'm saying, is instead of less, you will see a lot more stuff being dumped, because it's just necessary. Even in Pub games you will see people spawning with links and dropping them all over the place, since after the first game with no uplinker you will start to think about bringing them yourself (whatever the role). The other stategy (or lack of) in pubs will be link supported ZERGING. Meaning, everybody will zerg in on the links supplied by the blop, and we can keep everything nice and tidy. Also very Boring. Since links are instantly exhausted, you will only be able to spawn in near the ZergBlop on freshly put down links. Popping equipment that is below the current suits bandwith This denies a support player to play another important support role, which is AV. If you now say, just pop a SL or PC on your suit, than I must say that's not very realistic. My minlogi has no sidearm, so Swarms are pretty much a nogo, and PLC will also get you killed in most curcumstances. Against dropships, you need the extra damage from the commando anyway, if you want to make an impression on the pilot. For Sentinels the usual drill is anyway, to deliver them to the rooftop with a logi, to build a nest, so that's not a real issue, only in pubs will those self sufficient Forgers suffer. But on the other hand, if logis need to manage their bandwith, the forger on the roof might see his hives and links go pop for no apparent reason (logi has put something down elsewhere and stetched his BW too thin). If that's a good or a bad thing, I don't know, It won't change anything though, since it won't prevent rooftop camping for dedicated campers... END PT1 Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 343	Posted - 2014.11.24 16:29:00 - [427] - Quote PT2 Verdict These changes will do nothing but punishing Logi players who adapt to the battlefield. Spammers will spam as much as before. The proposed Orbital changes will have a much greater impact on spam, since you have to spread the equipment for that it's not popped wit a single EMP OB. But when you have to spread it, it's more work and not as attractive. I urge you Rattati, wait with these (BW) changes, until we see what happens with those new tools, try to code simple stuff like no hives in the resupply radius of a supply depot. It can't be, that implementation of something simple as this is more complicated then the mess you are about to dump on us! Take the time to rethink the whole thing a simpler solution, like a hardcap of Active and inactive equipment per class, would be much simpler and more easy to understand for newer players. Last (and this is very IMPORTANT): Make deployed equipment disappear from the assets of the player. Meaning, if you spam equipment you have to pay in isk. Right now, it is basically absolutely free. If you switch back to a different suit you will not loose those hives and links. This is wrong. Everything deployed should be paid for by the person who put's it down, since you will be paid back in wp/isk! If you go back to a supply to restock your hives, one of each will be taken from your assets!!! THIS CHANGE WOULD HURT MOSTLY THE SPAMMERS It wouldn't hurt dedicated support logis, since they often enough pay with their suits when they intentionally suicide to get back with more gear. Since Logis that run with their squads, usually try to keep their stuff on the suit, until it's needed. This needs to go in line with slightly more WP for higher tiers of equipment. Otherwise everybody would just spam cheaper stuff... Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...
Greiv Rabbah KiLo. 16	Posted - 2014.11.24 17:59:00 - [428] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear Players Based on a lot of feedback, both from CPM, Community and previous CCP designs, one of the things we are able to conjure up is the much wanted Equipment Bandwidth feature. * We want to fix Equipment spam to increase framerate * We want Quality over Quantity Equipment gameplay * We want a solid Logistics progression at using Equipment * We want Logistics to excel at using Equipment, and other roles less so * We want Equipment diversity Now, we want to get your feedback as early as possible, so chime in. But here are some clarifications of intent. Equipment Limit The main design is primarily based off of Drones in EVE. Every dropsuit has a built-in Equipment Controller, which has a certain Bandwidth Capacity (in MHz). That Controller Bandwidth is used to manage deployed Equipment through constant signaling. Each piece of deployed Equipment has a different Bandwidth Cost (or Usage). Note that all Equipment still has the same current limitations of GÇPdeployed per typeGÇ£. Obviously Logistics are made for this purpose, and some Logistics more than others. In the case of deployed Equipment Bandwidth exceeding the Players current Bandwidth, deployed Equipment self-destructs instantly, in the sequence it was deployed. In the attached spreadsheet, we show an example of such a scenario. This feature will allow proper Logistics to excel at their deployment role, while keeping Assaults & Commandos relatively useful and Scouts will be diminished in capability as they were never meant to be a king of deployables, the additional slot was added for the Cloak Field. Quality over Quantity We want players to use the best Equipment they have at their disposal. ThatGÇÖs why Bandwidth will not increase with item tiers. We also have the capability and intent to reduce Scan Profile with tiers, so Advanced and Complex gear is not as easy to scan. However, this also allows us to increase the carried amount, for rapid redeployment. Spawn first Nanohive and Drop Uplink at point A, redeploy to Objective B, spawn second Nanohive and Drop Uplink, and so on. Stay out of trouble and you wonGÇÖt need to switch or restock for quite some time. Progression Logistics will have the, by far, the highest Bandwidth, with Caldari and Amarr the highest. We may need to reword or change some of their role bonuses. Bandwith progression will follow the Equipment slot progression so a Logistics player can almost always use their full allotment of deployable Equipment. Logistics vs other Dropsuits One of the key aspects of this proposal is that all Equipment is tied to the active Dropsuit of the Player. Switch from a suit with a high Bandwidth to another suit with lower Bandwidth, and the signal is lost. This means that starting as a Logistics dropsuit, throw down as much cheap Equipment as possible, then switch into another Logistics dropsuit at a Supply Depot, repeat and then finally switch into another role, Sentinel, Scout, Assault or Commando, will not be possible anymore. Diversity We can now influence players to use more Proximity Mines for example, as Scan Profile will allow them to be hidden from low Precision Vehicle Players, as well as having a lower Bandwidth Cost, allowing more at the same time, without allowing more Uplinks and Nanohives. Extra damage wouldnGÇÖt hurt either. Now, to the numbers found in this spreadsheet. Please remember that these numbers are placeholders, and are definitely up for debate so form your arguments for changes into clear and concise statements. Please read the Example as well, it should explain the whole design clearly. Again, your feedback and input is appreciated. I mostly really like this, and I can see how this relates well with drones in eve. A couple thoughts I'd like to throw out there: first, you have uplinks and remotes at the same bandwidth and I think this may be really bad; while caldari and gallente have nk and shotguns, the only real minmatar scout weapons are bombs of various sorts. Thukkers as well as other locus grenades have been killed so bad that the tiger scout even carries gallente grenades, so remotes are our best racial weapon for a stealth kill. Even then, most heavies can shrug off a remote, and it takes all 3 remotes most times to blow up even a lav, while the mass driver is horrendously underpowered as an av weapon. Too much demolitions nerfing has been detrimental to the minmatar, I think, and while I agree that scouts shouldn't be the kings of equipment I feel that limiting our remotes this way would be the last nail in the coffin for demolitions weapons. Another thing I'd like to say since you mentioned drones and equipment is that since gallente currently only have scanners, and you're talking about bandwidth to limit deployment spam and make logistics more effective with equipment, is what about letting logis use an equipment slot to deploy drones in order to better defend themselves? They could be a gallente equipment with similar ai to turrets that floats around you like the tk-70 personal drone does on psHome. In this way a gallogi could support a heavy by providing scans and supplementing the heavy's firepower. Potential variants could be defense drones that attack anything that shoots at you and attack drones that attack what's been scanned. Something like this would need another patch I would imagine, but I'dbe interested to see it happen so perhaps something to consider for another update? One last question, is a portable salvage tool ever a possibility? Could reward 15 points and some of the enemy's gear, but only usable on enemies who are bleeding out
Cass Caul 1724	Posted - 2014.11.24 19:12:00 - [429] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Personally I think bandwidth should be set based on dropsuit class, not based upon tier. Make them all capable of running the same number of deployables. Just make it so each stack of deployables they carry can fill that BW. So if you carry three types of hives, one STD, ADV and PRO make it so you can drop enough to eat the BW. So you can carry boat tons of crappy fire and forget trash that won't last long... or you can carry a few quality pieces. But if you throw all of your STD hives you're using all of the bandwidth till they pop. Tiering is fine for modules and weapons. It allows player who have crappy skills to have options. But tiering dropsuits has always caused more problems than it solved. Actually, I take it all back. This bandwidth idea is a great thing. We should really be looking forward to a tiered progression. Maybe we can even use this as a platform to re-introduce tiered HP. STD dropsuits shouldn't be allowed to have the same base HP as ADV and PRO suits. It gives STD suits an unfair advantage because they don't have to fit modules to match higher tiers.
Pvt Numnutz Prophets of the Velocirapture 1998	Posted - 2014.11.25 06:45:00 - [430] - Quote Awesome. Giving the logi its role beyond a quick drop of equipment. +1 Master Skyshark rider Kaalaka dakka tamer

Sylwester Dziewiecki Interregnum. 441	Posted - 2014.11.25 08:37:00 - [431] - Quote When this changes will be deploy players will be able to deploy 8 of 9 uplinks with something like this: Logistics mk.0(660HP) - Combat Rifle - Flux Grenade - Vizam Gauged Drop Uplink - Vizam Flux Drop Uplink - Vizam Quantum Drop Uplink - Vizam Stable Drop Uplink - 3x Complex Shield Extender - Complex Shield Energizer - Complex Armor Plate - Enhanced CPU Upgrade - 2x Complex Profile Dampener Then switch to Amarr Logistics(because of sidearm and extra BW) that instead of Uplinks have Repair Tool, Active Scanner and good quality nano with he will be able to drop because of extra bandwidth. That is one way to exploit BW system, those 8 uplinks mean a lot on public matches, especially if they are placed on rooftops. Bigger thing that consort me is that player may come back to base to switch Logistics suit to one that have just bpo weapon(to lower his loses in case shot-off) and stay for entire match in vehicle - HAV, ADS or any other - players doing so will perform more roles then they should, and because of it I think that vehicle BW need to be included in this changes; player BW need drop at least to 4 when they enter any vehicle to finely end with rooftops-uplink-spam nonsense. Gallente Speed Scout. EVE side of me: Nosum Hseebnrido
Haerr 2008	Posted - 2014.11.25 11:40:00 - [432] - Quote You can fix the problem of RE+LAVs if you make a separate bandwidth system for REs. Edit: or at least make it so that it would require two (logis) players in order to put enough REs on a LAV to alpha a tank. fighter jets
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 345	Posted - 2014.11.25 11:40:00 - [433] - Quote Sylwester Dziewiecki wrote: That is one way to exploit BW system, those 8 uplinks mean a lot on public matches, especially if they are placed on rooftops. Bigger thing that consort me is that player may come back to base to switch Logistics suit to one that have just bpo weapon(to lower his loses in case shot-off) and stay for entire match in vehicle - HAV, ADS or any other - players doing so will perform more roles then they should, and because of it I think that vehicle BW need to be included in this changes; player BW need drop at least to 4 when they enter any vehicle to finely end with rooftops-uplink-spam nonsense. Rooftop spam will still be possible, since you have to stay with the links (swarm in hand) to protect said uplinks against destruction by pesky enemy DS... No change to spam at all inbound with those BW changes!!! Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4713	Posted - 2014.11.25 12:39:00 - [434] - Quote Sylwester Dziewiecki wrote: When this changes will be deploy players will be able to deploy 8 of 9 uplinks with something like this: Logistics mk.0(660HP) - Combat Rifle - Flux Grenade - Vizam Gauged Drop Uplink - Vizam Flux Drop Uplink - Vizam Quantum Drop Uplink - Vizam Stable Drop Uplink - 3x Complex Shield Extender - Complex Shield Energizer - Complex Armor Plate - Enhanced CPU Upgrade - 2x Complex Profile Dampener Then switch to Amarr Logistics(because of sidearm and extra BW) that instead of Uplinks have Repair Tool, Active Scanner and good quality nano with he will be able to drop because of extra bandwidth. That is one way to exploit BW system, those 8 uplinks mean a lot on public matches, especially if they are placed on rooftops. Bigger thing that consort me is that player may come back to base to switch Logistics suit to one that have just bpo weapon(to lower his loses in case shot-off) and stay for entire match in vehicle - HAV, ADS or any other - players doing so will perform more roles then they should, and because of it I think that vehicle BW need to be included in this changes; player BW need drop at least to 4 when they enter any vehicle to finely end with rooftops-uplink-spam nonsense. So, one, you can already do this. In fact, you can do it better by switching to a cal or gal scout (or a sentinel) instead of the Amarr logi. Two, you won't be able to do it with BW, because no suit has enough BW to drop 9 links, much less 9 links plus a bunch of nanohives. This is, in fact, what BW is specifcally intended to prevent. It remains miind boggling how poorly understood this is! To your point about BW and vehicles, I see your concern about exploiting the system, but hat seems unnecessarily harsh. It's one thing not to be able to switch suits, but now I can't even jump into an LAV or DS to get somewhere quickly? (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Jadd Hatchen KILL-EM-QUICK 683	Posted - 2014.11.25 15:12:00 - [435] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: Stop this... Stop saying that scouts main role in life is to be anti-vehicle... it takes taht role away from the heavies and the assaults and the logis who are supposed to be doing this stuff. Second no tank should be a solo-able thing!!! Why do you all insist that the lightest dropsuit class in the game should be able to destroy the most heavy vehicle inthe game, BY ITSELF? This makes no logical sense whatsoever. That's like trying to claim that a frigate should have enough guns and firepower to solo kill a dreadnaught in EVE... It's not gonna happen. Third, you don't just have freaking REs as a scout!!! If you truly wanna go tank hunting in a scout, then ONE RE + proto-AV nades + skilled up PLASMA CANNON or SWARM LAUNCHER still gets you a very decen chance to kill a tank!!! Whining about the RE thing is just plain dumb as you have so many other tools to use in the toolbox!!!! First: Scouts are for CQC AV. Assault/Commando only get close enough to toss an AV grenade. Logi don't usually put RE on thanks. They do AV with Proxies & Remote traps on the road. Sentinels are for long range AV. Second: In WWII many people soloed Tanks. They would dig a shallow trench narrower than the tank tread and lay in it holding a magnetic tank mine on their chest. When the tank rolled over them they would reach up and place the mine on the belly of the tank. Then the guy would have to prey the tank kept going as you don't want to be under a tank mine when it blows up. Third: It is not so much that no tank should be solo-able, as no tank should be solo-able with only one weapon. To solo a Tank a Scout has to use Remote Explosives, AV Grenades, and a Swarm Launcher or Plasma Cannon. Without the Remote Explosives there chances of getting a kill without help are very low. Keep in mind that to use Remote Explosives a Scout has to get close enough to the Tank to risk getting run over, or squished against a wall. First: No scouts, as the English word implies, are there to do scouting first and foremost. They provide recon and intel. Only in FPS's this is a boring and unwanted task. So in many FPS's they combined the scout role with sniping. In other FPS's they combined the scout role with CQC. Only in DUST they have given the scout the OPTION to choose to be many things. BUT, one has to keep in mind that if you choose one of those things (CQC, recon, sniping, AV, forward logistics, etc.) then you should NOT expect to do the other things at the SAME TIME. If you kit out for AV as a scout, then you should NOT also be able to be an unstoppable slayer that can provide advanced intel to your squad. For game balance purposes, you should have to CHOOSE to do one thing with one particular loadout. Switching to a different suit with a different loadout for a different situation is ok. Second: I would be all for your WWII example, except that no one would play and FPS where they sit in one place for the entire match and do nothing and hope for a tank to run over them like that even if it did mean that they guaranteed the kill of that tank. No scout in this game is that patient and most squads would kick them for being too inactive. If we are going to use real world examples, how about that of a demolitions expert like EOD or similar? At what point do they frisbee remote explosives? NO? They set charges.. SET THEM CAREFULLY to aim the blast in a directed way. The shape the battlefield by removing obstacles or removing paths the enemy may use. They may even set up an occasional trap, but there's that patience thing again that most of the currently caffeine frenzied scouts in DUST would never go for. Third: I agree, if you kit out a scout like that so that they are gimped to hell in all other things other than killing tanks, then go for it. However that's not currently the case as you still get that pesky extra sidearm slot that should not be there. I know, one of my scout setups actually is what you called out for an AV scout. Also, keep in mind that you never have to go anywhere near a tank to use an RE on it!!! You forget that its original intent (before they could be frisbeed) was to set it on a known location where people or vehicles will go! Set it up on a road or pass or entry to a city module where you KNOW a vehicle will have to pass through. Then sit off to the side somewhere and wait. (Oh hell that pesky waiting thing again that scouts don't want to do.) Then you open up with a multiple RE explosion on the vehicle as they pass over your RE's (hey kinda like your WWII example, go figure) and then follow up with AV nades. This will get the tank running, and as they run away you swarm them and boom! Dead tank. Same effect and no risk of getting squished.
Jadd Hatchen KILL-EM-QUICK 683	Posted - 2014.11.25 15:16:00 - [436] - Quote Moonracer2000 wrote: I like the idea of cutting down equipment spam and buffing the logi role of equipment but BW seems necessarily complicated. Lots of coding for all equipment and each suit. Lots for players to keep track of. A simpler system: Calculate the max number of deployables per player in a match allowable while keeping performance. Take that average and set a hard cap per player (or suit type). [example] If the average is 3 you could allow 1 for heavies, 4 for logis and 2 for all other suits. If you want to keep 4 pieces of equipment on the map you stay as a logi. If you switch to a heavy you lose all but one piece of equipment on the field. REs and proxies might require a separate counter? This is effectively the same as the bandwidth change. Honestly they had this exact same issue in EVE with drones that were deployed from ships. They were causing so much lag that the servers would crash. So they came up with a bandwidth nerf that worked. They are only applying the same fix to this game and I have to say that I agree with it, but only if they fix the respawning causing stuff to disappear issue first.
Jadd Hatchen KILL-EM-QUICK 683	Posted - 2014.11.25 15:22:00 - [437] - Quote bwd23 wrote: We all know something needs to be done about spam, however the BW idea is bad. Lets say as a logi I drop triage hives, uplinks, and PEs all in perfect spots. In the new meta when I die I can help the team much more by being afk in the redline than going to another role and having all that work disappear. The BW idea encourages afking. Now to my idea. have a 40 meter "red zone" around supply depots where equipment may not be dropped. I am positive this will get rid of nearly 90% of spam. Simple and effective! On a sidenote I believe the lag is somehow caused by the pulsing of lots of uplinks/nanos. The "redzone" won't fix it. I never deploy that close when I can help it as one good flux will take out all my work. Instead I spread it around, but still spam it everywhere. Then switch suits. As for your AFK concern, why is that so bad? In real life logistics stay in the rear or they get dead. Isn't that the point? You support from the rear, you guard the rear objectives. HELL this is the perfect setup now. Example: I pull out my logi in the initial rush, and deploy all my stuffs in forward locations. Then I run back to the home/rear most objective and guard it from scouts as I would also have some scanning arrays/modules running. Perfect style of play. I get to support the front with equipment while still guarding the rear with scans and a rifle. Also this is just one example. As with everything in EVE it's all up to you to decide to use it. But there would still be "tanked" logis with rep tools following heavies around on the frontlines stabbing downed comrades with needles. It would just be a different style of logi role.
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1297	Posted - 2014.11.25 15:24:00 - [438] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: Moonracer2000 wrote: I like the idea of cutting down equipment spam and buffing the logi role of equipment but BW seems necessarily complicated. Lots of coding for all equipment and each suit. Lots for players to keep track of. A simpler system: Calculate the max number of deployables per player in a match allowable while keeping performance. Take that average and set a hard cap per player (or suit type). [example] If the average is 3 you could allow 1 for heavies, 4 for logis and 2 for all other suits. If you want to keep 4 pieces of equipment on the map you stay as a logi. If you switch to a heavy you lose all but one piece of equipment on the field. REs and proxies might require a separate counter? This is effectively the same as the bandwidth change. Honestly they had this exact same issue in EVE with drones that were deployed from ships. They were causing so much lag that the servers would crash. So they came up with a bandwidth nerf that worked. They are only applying the same fix to this game and I have to say that I agree with it, but only if they fix the respawning causing stuff to disappear issue first. EVE also cut down the number of drones available to some ships as well. We could make the equipment more powerful and buff its HP to make it more survivable but make them very expensive Cpu/PG costs for non-logi suits to use anything but standard level kit. Edit...yeah, I know it doesn't fix the first guy in dropping tons of uplinks but then switching to scout. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Jadd Hatchen KILL-EM-QUICK 683	Posted - 2014.11.25 15:26:00 - [439] - Quote S0Lid 5N4K3 wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Dear Players Based on a lot of feedback, both from CPM, Community and previous CCP designs, one of the things we are able to conjure up is the much wanted Equipment Bandwidth feature. * We want to fix Equipment spam to increase framerate * We want Quality over Quantity Equipment gameplay * We want a solid Logistics progression at using Equipment * We want Logistics to excel at using Equipment, and other roles less so * We want Equipment diversity Now, we want to get your feedback as early as possible, so chime in. But here are some clarifications of intent. Equipment Limit The main design is primarily based off of Drones in EVE. Every dropsuit has a built-in Equipment Controller, which has a certain Bandwidth Capacity (in MHz). That Controller Bandwidth is used to manage deployed Equipment through constant signaling. Each piece of deployed Equipment has a different Bandwidth Cost (or Usage). Note that all Equipment still has the same current limitations of GÇPdeployed per typeGÇ£. Obviously Logistics are made for this purpose, and some Logistics more than others. In the case of deployed Equipment Bandwidth exceeding the Players current Bandwidth, deployed Equipment self-destructs instantly, in the sequence it was deployed. In the attached spreadsheet, we show an example of such a scenario. This feature will allow proper Logistics to excel at their deployment role, while keeping Assaults & Commandos relatively useful and Scouts will be diminished in capability as they were never meant to be a king of deployables, the additional slot was added for the Cloak Field. Quality over Quantity We want players to use the best Equipment they have at their disposal. ThatGÇÖs why Bandwidth will not increase with item tiers. We also have the capability and intent to reduce Scan Profile with tiers, so Advanced and Complex gear is not as easy to scan. However, this also allows us to increase the carried amount, for rapid redeployment. Spawn first Nanohive and Drop Uplink at point A, redeploy to Objective B, spawn second Nanohive and Drop Uplink, and so on. Stay out of trouble and you wonGÇÖt need to switch or restock for quite some time. Progression Logistics will have the, by far, the highest Bandwidth, with Caldari and Amarr the highest. We may need to reword or change some of their role bonuses. Bandwith progression will follow the Equipment slot progression so a Logistics player can almost always use their full allotment of deployable Equipment. Logistics vs other Dropsuits One of the key aspects of this proposal is that all Equipment is tied to the active Dropsuit of the Player. Switch from a suit with a high Bandwidth to another suit with lower Bandwidth, and the signal is lost. This means that starting as a Logistics dropsuit, throw down as much cheap Equipment as possible, then switch into another Logistics dropsuit at a Supply Depot, repeat and then finally switch into another role, Sentinel, Scout, Assault or Commando, will not be possible anymore. Diversity We can now influence players to use more Proximity Mines for example, as Scan Profile will allow them to be hidden from low Precision Vehicle Players, as well as having a lower Bandwidth Cost, allowing more at the same time, without allowing more Uplinks and Nanohives. Extra damage wouldnGÇÖt hurt either. Now, to the numbers found in this spreadsheet. Please remember that these numbers are placeholders, and are definitely up for debate so form your arguments for changes into clear and concise statements. Please read the Example as well, it should explain the whole design clearly. Again, your feedback and input is appreciated. One suggestion to avoid a catastrophic, potentially game-breaking equipment nerf: don't destroy equipment whenever bandwidth is too low; merely deacivate it, then allow it to reactivate if/when bandwidth is restored. While this is a cool and novel idea, it won't fix the lag issue which is the heart of the problem. Inert equipment is still taking up CPU time.
Jadd Hatchen KILL-EM-QUICK 683	Posted - 2014.11.25 15:32:00 - [440] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: SO, new idea. I am already a declared fan of Cross' proposed equipment revamp, the one Shayz is talking about, I see it reinforcing Logistics (rightfully) as THE equipment use role and while it will have some adverse effects on certain playstyles it doesn't outright nullify others the way BW does. I am against BW in its entirety, because at it's core it address SPAM (very worthwhile endeavour) but as a collateral cost it also completely eliminates certain Combat Logistics gameplay (which I oppose). SO, since SPAM is the problem AND evidently switching usage of a Logi suit is the method, why not institute some code that tracks the SPAMming actions themselves and once the algorithm recognizes the spammer it a) kicks their ass out of the match completely b) insta-pops ALL equipment they've deployed c) deducts fully from their wallet all associated suit and fitting costs including the frame they were attampting to switch into and d) ALSO calculates up to that point in the match how many SP they would have received and deducts it from their current available SP pool! If their current available is 0 or less than what they would have gotten then they go negative until they generate proper WP to balance the deficit. SO, we already know CCP is more than capable to track player action vs. game result (FW friendlyfire negative points, vehicle driving and acceleration cues moving vehicles around etc.) and script appropriate reponses for the cues. Script a piece of code that when it sees [drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-SWITCH OR SUICIDE-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-SWITCH] all in one particular area it frikin' kicks that ass to the curb and leaves a nice fat CCP bootprint on it. CCP Glinda, now that she's no longer in denial about equipment spamming and the inherent lag it produces, can track and calculate roughly how much equipment it takes, set a worthwhile time limit to the "drop drop drop" element and quantify the algorithm/coding so it can't be broken by [drop-drop-drop-drop-(x action, say squatting down or firing a weapon)-SWITCH-drop-drop...] but still allows for active LOGISTICS which can be very much drop-drop-drop sometimes. Playtesting would be required. Analytics on existing and predicted Logistics use play metrics would be required. Coding would be required. BUT, this is the **** being done anyway to institute BW already and if composed correctly PENALIZES SPAMMERS without victimizing gameplayers. I'm all for growth, balancing and improvement and neccessary changes, especially those that cut down or eliminate exploitation. I'm not for the monthly Calvin and Hobbes comicstrip "New Rule!" method of addressing issues. btw, I am at work again (if I'm going to spend time doing game design, I'm getting paid dude) so if it takes me a bit to respond to responses that's what's up. douses self in gasoline Flame On! It wouldn't stop me... I would find a way to beat your "drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-SWITCH OR SUICIDE-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-SWITCH" algorithm by doing something like: drop-shoot gun-drop-jump-drop-shoot gun-drop-jump-drop-shoot gun-drop-jump-drop-shoot gun-drop-jump-drop-shoot gun-drop-jump-you get the idea... Players are ingenious like that when it comes to circumventing the system. Also what about the legitimate cases where people would do actions that required a conscious choice to switch from a logi to a heavy in a last ditch attempt at holding an objective? What then? Punish them for trying to play differently?

Jadd Hatchen KILL-EM-QUICK 684	Posted - 2014.11.25 15:35:00 - [441] - Quote jace silencerww wrote: CCP Rattati what about proximity mines? if I throw them out (lets say 10 total-3 basic, 3 adv, 4 proto) and change off my logi to an Minnie assault to protect an objective near my prox mines.. what happens to them? They all go away except for the ones that you new suit (the assault) can handle. Your example is exactly the type of spamming that they are trying to remove from the game.
Jadd Hatchen KILL-EM-QUICK 684	Posted - 2014.11.25 15:45:00 - [442] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: Several things seem to be important to think of right now. Why do dedicated support player like myself switch suits after they deployed equipment? My reason for that is simple. After Tank 514 hit us hard, I was fed up with OP Vehicles and skilled into AV stuff. First it was just remotes/proxies, later when the MinCommando came out I skilled that to 5 instantly and swarms to 5 as well (P5 now). I switch regularly to my minmando just to support my team, since tanks and DS on rampage hurt my team a lot. snip Third why are Logis running Scouts instead of a logi? This is very simple to explain, it's also for team support. If you run a logi, you are worth ****, since if you make a support suit, you have no health to survive a single shotgun blast. So since a smart scout will allways go for the logi first, you die a lot. This however is no fun at all (and a liability in PC), and I can understand every Logi that puts a Amarr scout with lots of Scans and hp on to prevent his squad from being backstabbed. You are wrong. Yes supporting for AV is good, but It's really the domain of the Commando and the Assault for a reason. However if you want to still do it as a logi, it is possible. Just skill into the Amar Logi suit and carry your swarms with a sidearm and still have plenty of equipment slots... There done. Logi's are not used right now because SCOUTS are able to be slayers, assault, AND logis too with their second equipment slot. By adding a limited bandwidth to the scout, you effectively remove them from the logi role without having to remove that extra pesky equipment slot. BW will only make logi's more valued and prized and once players realize that, they will also start PROTECTING THEIR LOGI'S!!!! Hell I can see non-logis like assaults or commandos even carrying a needle just so that they can ensure that their logi can get back up and continue to support the squad. Cuz', you know, that scout's gonna kill that logi with a shotgun in two hits, but then die to the rest of the squad and then the rest of the squad revives the logi and problem solved...
Jadd Hatchen KILL-EM-QUICK 684	Posted - 2014.11.25 15:49:00 - [443] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: PT2 Verdict These changes will do nothing but punishing Logi players who adapt to the battlefield. Spammers will spam as much as before. The proposed Orbital changes will have a much greater impact on spam, since you have to spread the equipment for that it's not popped wit a single EMP OB. But when you have to spread it, it's more work and not as attractive. I urge you Rattati, wait with these (BW) changes, until we see what happens with those new tools, try to code simple stuff like no hives in the resupply radius of a supply depot. It can't be, that implementation of something simple as this is more complicated then the mess you are about to dump on us! Take the time to rethink the whole thing. A simpler solution, like a hardcap of Active and inactive equipment per class, would be much simpler and more easy to understand for newer players. Last (and this is very IMPORTANT): Make deployed equipment disappear from the assets of the player. Meaning, if you spam equipment you have to pay in isk. Right now, it is basically absolutely free. If you switch back to a different suit you will not loose those hives and links. This is wrong. Everything deployed should be paid for by the person who put's it down, since you will be paid back in wp/isk! If you go back to a supply to restock your hives, one of each should be taken from your assets!!! THIS CHANGE WOULD HURT MOSTLY THE SPAMMERS It wouldn't hurt dedicated support logis, since they often enough pay with their suits when they intentionally suicide to get back with more gear. Also Logis that run with their squads, usually try to keep their stuff on the suit, until it's needed. This needs to go in line with slightly more WP for higher tiers of equipment. Otherwise everybody would just spam cheaper stuff... Your verdict is flawed and incorrect. The BW changes will only make the logis more valuable. I agree the miniature OB's are a dumb idea that will only hurt the game. A hard cap is the same as the BW idea. BW IS a hardcap already, just based upon suit type. I like the idea of making deployed assets disappear from inventory once used. This is the only idea you've come up with so far that has any real merit.
dreth longbow Bank of DUST 514 61	Posted - 2014.11.25 18:19:00 - [444] - Quote My solution is just one of many that are presented by people, who spend waaay more time on the forums than I. CCP should really do some investigation and talk to a variaty of players before they try to fix a problem that should not be fixed before other issues and once they have a ranked list of issues then seek solutions from the members for the best fix vs developments fix which is usually wrong. I am not trashing CCP for they have done some good things lately, it just seams they are out of contact with the player base and listen to a few forum warriors that don't represent the player base.
CrotchGrab 360 Yon Hyaku Nijuu Moyase 1528	Posted - 2014.11.25 19:42:00 - [445] - Quote This may be a really simple thing to say but, the sound effects are eating a lot of memory too! Perhaps look at those too! It's also very annoying and distracting having to hear the hum of 50 nanohives and uplinks. DUST VIDEOS
CrotchGrab 360 Yon Hyaku Nijuu Moyase 1528	Posted - 2014.11.25 19:43:00 - [446] - Quote Oh and don't nerf the suit's ability to carry equipment, just introduce a team quota on equipment like vehicles. DUST VIDEOS
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4718	Posted - 2014.11.25 21:43:00 - [447] - Quote CrotchGrab 360 wrote: Oh and don't nerf the suit's ability to carry equipment, just introduce a team quota on equipment like vehicles. Worst. Idea. Ever. Will be so awesome when you can't deploy a single piece of equipment after some awoxer or AFK farmer drops 18 uplinks/hives in the MCC or redline. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4718	Posted - 2014.11.25 21:45:00 - [448] - Quote dreth longbow wrote: My solution is just one of many that are presented by people, who spend waaay more time on the forums than I. CCP should really do some investigation and talk to a variaty of players before they try to fix a problem that should not be fixed before other issues and once they have a ranked list of issues then seek solutions from the members for the best fix vs developments fix which is usually wrong. I am not trashing CCP for they have done some good things lately, it just seams they are out of contact with the player base and listen to a few forum warriors that don't represent the player base. So, I think that's what this thread is for, and equipment spam has been on the top of the list of complaints for over a year afaik. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
NextDark Knight Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 638	Posted - 2014.11.26 00:58:00 - [449] - Quote Dust 514 v1.9 - Rant on Solo Gameplay: http://youtu.be/eNqtvTc1_UE I won't be able to play like this with equipment bandwidth Over 60+ Million SP and full proto in all Caldari Suits. Dust just won't die on PS3/Xbox. Dustin since 6/29/2012
jace silencerww D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 97	Posted - 2014.11.26 10:20:00 - [450] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: jace silencerww wrote: CCP Rattati what about proximity mines? if I throw them out (lets say 10 total-3 basic, 3 adv, 4 proto) and change off my logi to an Minnie assault to protect an objective near my prox mines.. what happens to them? They all go away except for the ones that you new suit (the assault) can handle. Your example is exactly the type of spamming that they are trying to remove from the game. really?! is prox spamming that bad it lags the game? I put down 10 proxs and defend that point. lol I dont think prox spam is the reason it lags. I don't normally spam uplinks or hives unless my side needs them.

iWanderer PT-BR 11	Posted - 2014.11.26 10:27:00 - [451] - Quote Rattati If Caldari Logi get wp points from team+squad for hives and Amarr Logi get wp points from team+squad for uplinks and Min Logi get wp from repairing (team+squad), then why Gal Logi get wp ONLY from squad kills. Everybody on the team sees them on Tacnet, just like hives and uplinks and even a repper in the heat of battle. You dont need much, 2 pt for equipment destroyed, 5 for team kill assist to 10 for squad kill assist, 20 to 35pts for confirmed kill. Say 20 for team kill, 35 for squad kill. I-¦m referring this in this thread because of possible changes in Logi suits/bonus and ewar changes also for Logis. Should I start a new one with this only topic?
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5348	Posted - 2014.11.26 10:29:00 - [452] - Quote It means if you want to play mine tender do it in a logi suit. Logis as disposable hero suits that exist only to carry your deployables and then get put back in the closet are a problem If you want to play gear nerd learn to shoot people in the gear nerd suit. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 350	Posted - 2014.11.26 15:50:00 - [453] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: You are wrong. Yes supporting for AV is good, but It's really the domain of the Commando and the Assault for a reason. However if you want to still do it as a logi, it is possible. Just skill into the Amar Logi suit and carry your swarms with a sidearm and still have plenty of equipment slots... There done. Logi's are not used right now because SCOUTS are able to be slayers, assault, AND logis too with their second equipment slot. By adding a limited bandwidth to the scout, you effectively remove them from the logi role without having to remove that extra pesky equipment slot. BW will only make logi's more valued and prized and once players realize that, they will also start PROTECTING THEIR LOGI'S!!!! Hell I can see non-logis like assaults or commandos even carrying a needle just so that they can ensure that their logi can get back up and continue to support the squad. Cuz', you know, that scout's gonna kill that logi with a shotgun in two hits, but then die to the rest of the squad and then the rest of the squad revives the logi and problem solved... I'm saying it again, I'm not against Bandwith, I'm against the destruction of stuff that is deployed. If it gets deactivated, so that I can go back in a logi suit after the Vehicle threat is removed from Battlefield, I'm fine with the general Idea of BW! What you say about Assault protecting the logis is wishful thinking, it won't happen. Even with a squad, the best thing you can hope for is that somebody carries a needle. When I play against squads with logis, I make sure the logi is not rezzable. This behaviour will be common sense with all non noob players. What we will see in the future, is assaults, scouts and commandos dominating everything. There might be some full time logis who will stick to the role, but all the players who love the adaptability of role change will not bother to deploy stuff above their suit with the least bandwith, since it's to unpredictable if the stuff stays on the field. So better calculate with less stuff from the start. I do love this game for the possibility to adapt to the battle, if that's taken away from the logi, it would take away a lot of the fun for me... But hey, this is a good reason to skill into that Shaman BPO, so I don't need to waste money when I run logi... BTW, that you propose to skill into the suits of the slavers is beyond me... It's no option for a true Matar! Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1298	Posted - 2014.11.26 16:12:00 - [454] - Quote NextDark Knight wrote: Dust 514 v1.9 - Rant on Solo Gameplay: http://youtu.be/eNqtvTc1_UE I won't be able to play like this with equipment bandwidth From another thread that echos some of your sentiments I think... #252Posted: 2014.11.26 16:04 \| Report \| Edited by: Jaysyn Larrisen i think there are several areas that need to be addressed with the logi role and the racial suits. Removing tactical flexibility and adaptability...two of the few shining areas of positive play in Dust in an attempt to attack the singular problem of equipment spam is just not a well thought out idea at this point. As i've noted in other places, I'm reserving my final judgement until I can see how ALL the overlapping factors are coming together. My opinions are based on what CCP has commented on or posted to publicly since all else is speculation by players. I maybe wrong but many of those it seems many loudly arguing for the bandwidth concept aren't those that will be impacted in the most meaningful way, i.e. dedicated support players. The bandwidth idea does quite directly address "One Suit Wonders" at the same time as putting professional logis at another potential disadvantage. I admit that I may not see the whole picture. That said, I also know that I'm looking at this from the perspective and experience level of someone that has been running logi 80% of the time for a couple years with some AV and Heavy mixed into the minority percentage. When you run logi but the tanks and ADS are overwhelming you then switch to AV and back to logi; when the hives are down and you and partner need to hold the last objective for another couple minutes to secure victory you can switch to heavy. The bandwidth concept takes that level of play away for logi players. Scouts can swap to a heavy suit and break defenses and switch back to scout with no penalty...assaults can switch to scouts and cloak/shotty then to AV suit with no penalty. With the bandwidth idea and your team is getting hammered by vehicles and you switch to AV you can instantly erase 90% of your equipment no matter how thoughtfully placed and tactically valuable to your team. No other role will make that trade off in this concept. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Aidualc LATINOS KILLERS CORP Dark Taboo 9	Posted - 2014.11.26 16:47:00 - [455] - Quote Oxford Dictionary.- Logistic: the branch of military science relating to procuring, maintaining and transporting material, personnel and facilities. Maybe if any Logi dropsuit have bonus in Transport (dropships-LAV), deployment (droplinks) and supply (nanohives) could be a REAL logistic rol. Let the scouts, assault and commands the Scan,Nanite Injectors, Rep tools, and remotes... and you will se more logis in a battle. ;)
NextDark Knight Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 639	Posted - 2014.11.26 17:46:00 - [456] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: From another thread that echos some of your sentiments I think... #252Posted: 2014.11.26 16:04 \| Report \| Edited by: Jaysyn Larrisen i think there are several areas that need to be addressed with the logi role and the racial suits. Removing tactical flexibility and adaptability...two of the few shining areas of positive play in Dust in an attempt to attack the singular problem of equipment spam is just not a well thought out idea at this point. . Thanks for the constructive feedback... So far your one of few people that didn't instantly stop me and tell me I'm wrong before I even explain what my concerns are.. I wanted to make a video out of frustration from how one sided the community can be but my video editing skills are poor at best. If Equipment Bandwdith must be a necceary evil that is put into the game it should be at least limited to how much bandwidth a squad can support. That way as a solo player I can deploy enough equipment to support a squad of blue berries that I'm trying to support as a solo player. Some of you might try to argue that this is crazy but one downside to this is I won't be gaining enough points fast enough to provide orbital support to the battle running solo. Yet, this is only idea I have that would be the best of both worlds. I'm against the entire bandwidth idea because once I spawn in to deploy mines for AV I will be complete restricted in spawning in a heavy suit to take infantry or god forbid forge gun. Or if we are redlined I can't spawn in uplinks then go help take a point cause I am now being FORCED to play a role. I just think this entire idea takes away freedom for a player so it can nicely fit into some predefined idea that some one else ahs on how the battles should unfold. Over 60+ Million SP and full proto in all Caldari Suits. Dust just won't die on PS3/Xbox. Dustin since 6/29/2012
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5359	Posted - 2014.11.26 18:23:00 - [457] - Quote NextDark Knight wrote: I just think this entire idea takes away freedom for a player so it can nicely fit into some predefined idea that some one else ahs on how the battles should unfold. Unfortunately easily exploitive behavior eradication and overall game balance needs to take precedence. On the less objective note, I think the whole "Drop equipment and swap suits" Bypasses one of the wewaknesses of a non-logi suit and diminishes the value of said logistics in the field. I firmly believe that that kind of play hurts the dedicated logistics role more than it helps. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Dubya Guy Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 46	Posted - 2014.11.26 19:00:00 - [458] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: NextDark Knight wrote: I just think this entire idea takes away freedom for a player so it can nicely fit into some predefined idea that some one else ahs on how the battles should unfold. Unfortunately easily exploitive behavior eradication and overall game balance needs to take precedence. On the less objective note, I think the whole "Drop equipment and swap suits" Bypasses one of the wewaknesses of a non-logi suit and diminishes the value of said logistics in the field. I firmly believe that that kind of play hurts the dedicated logistics role more than it helps. And a good way to discourage this is to apply a cost to swapping suits, particularly via supply depots: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2482098#post2482098 FPS = First Person Support. Kills win battles but it's kinda hard to kill if you're dead and out of ammo.
NextDark Knight Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 639	Posted - 2014.11.26 19:33:00 - [459] - Quote For your Information Breakin, Jet Canning was considered at one time to be a exploit. It was proposed for removal. Some of my logi suits cost upwards for 100k a spawn in and get killed off very easily. Also I pay the price of not having my heavy pushing objectives and slaying on the field. Just seams like a case where people are looking to hard to fix something for the sake of fixing something. Over 60+ Million SP and full proto in all Caldari Suits. Dust just won't die on PS3/Xbox. Dustin since 6/29/2012
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 351	Posted - 2014.11.26 21:07:00 - [460] - Quote The proposal to charge people for equipment spam is the most just in my opinion. Since a single flux on a pile of EQ, can wipeout quite a lot of ISK, it would hurt those who just set the crap up for farming around supply depots. The flux OB's would also lead people to keep the stuff on their suits, since it won't be destroyed there. I hope the devs take a serious look at this, since BANDWITH WILL NOT END SPAM Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...

Cass Caul 1747	Posted - 2014.11.26 21:20:00 - [461] - Quote NextDark Knight wrote: Dust 514 v1.9 - Rant on Solo Gameplay: http://youtu.be/eNqtvTc1_UE I won't be able to play like this with equipment bandwidth Part way through you swapped out of the Cal-Sent and went to something with REs I THink that that's probably the major change here: You can't use Uplinks and REs at the same time, which is a terrible idea. I really love the lack of foresight with this bandwidth idea. Instead of having 1 person drop a lot of hives you'll now have to plan out for your whole team to spam uplinks instead. Virutally keeping Uplinks out of Logistics player's hand because everyone else should be fitting them and throwing them down instead. Let the logi or force the logi into carrying REs and Nanohives because that's the best way to play the game if this terrible idea is implemented. This doesn't fix EQ spam, it just makes it a team effort to spam EQ across the map.
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 701	Posted - 2014.11.26 22:02:00 - [462] - Quote I am liking the input for more of a tiercide in relation to the BW and possibly a skill that adds a small amount to the total possible, regardless of class. I don't think that the skill or module is a good idea unless they are very weak, even at the proto level. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower Trust CROSS
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5374	Posted - 2014.11.26 22:08:00 - [463] - Quote NextDark Knight wrote: For your Information Breakin, Jet Canning was considered at one time to be a exploit. It was proposed for removal. Some of my logi suits cost upwards for 100k a spawn in and get killed off very easily. Also I pay the price of not having my heavy pushing objectives and slaying on the field. Just seams like a case where people are looking to hard to fix something for the sake of fixing something. Jet canning has no relevance here. Jet canning doesn't allow you to artificially inflate your combat capacity with no need to risk your mining ship EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 562	Posted - 2014.11.26 23:32:00 - [464] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: NextDark Knight wrote: I just think this entire idea takes away freedom for a player so it can nicely fit into some predefined idea that some one else ahs on how the battles should unfold. Unfortunately easily exploitive behavior eradication and overall game balance needs to take precedence. On the less objective note, I think the whole "Drop equipment and swap suits" Bypasses one of the wewaknesses of a non-logi suit and diminishes the value of said logistics in the field. I firmly believe that that kind of play hurts the dedicated logistics role more than it helps. No one is arguing against exploitative behavior eradication. Your logic on swapping suits to bypass weaknesses tho is applicable to all suit swaps and many in-game actions such as Heavies using LAVs to bypass their mobility weaknesses. Snipers being at long ranges to bypass their short range weaknesses. Scouts being in close ranges to bypass their long range weaknesses etc. Do those player actions also diminish their relative field values? If no OR if yes then why are those acceptable but on the part of logis its a major issue requiring massive dev and coder rewriting of underlying gameplay fundamentals? Especially in light of the fact that the rewriting is intended to stop spammers and the logi switch limitations are a collateral effect? Especially since other methods could be applied that would have the desired effect of limiting the spam without gimping the gameplay? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1344	Posted - 2014.11.27 01:36:00 - [465] - Quote What i'm hoping ultimately comes from all this a change of thought from. Now:"Ergads,any buffs will bring back slayer logistics!!" To: "Holy crap,logistics has been this bad the whole time? Let's improve them." I do still find it funny players admit ITT that logistics is expensive and dies too easily. Yet,they come up for no improvements for the logistics suit. They just go "lol,logis deserve it". And instead try to get (insert class here) buffed to use equipment better. I'm still liking this idea,it makes me giggle to see logi-haters squirm. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Joel II X Bacon with a bottle of Quafe 4806	Posted - 2014.11.27 02:29:00 - [466] - Quote What does it mean for the Proximity Mine Fields? Or a net consisting of both Proxies and REs?
Z3dog BIG BAD W0LVES 16	Posted - 2014.11.27 04:58:00 - [467] - Quote Z3dog wrote: Equipment spam is a necessary evil and it isn't as common as other exploits. Move the supply depot at the gallente research facilty and BAM, 90% of all cases of equipment spam are gone. The gallente lag facility is the only place i consistently see people do this. Meanwhile I see frisbee REs all the time. cloaked shotgun scouts literally every match. Suit switching at supply depots frequently. and Spawn camping. All of these could be fixed. We even had a client side update in which none of these things where fixed, in fact the things that where supposed to be fixed weren't fixed! Anyway, particularly with uplinks quantity is far superior to quality. Here is why: 1. scouts infest the map: there are no clear battle lines because scouts can be invisible on the radar of most suits permanently and relatively unnoticeable due to cloaks (especially in the heat of battle with visible enemies) for extended periods of time. They sneak and destroy equipment that would otherwise survive. The most undetectable suits in the game are also the fastest, equipment is easy to see and easy to scan. All it takes is a single melee hit to destroy it. 2. Logi suits suck to the point they cannot defend their own equipment. If by some miracle a logi wins a fight in which they cannot run away and likely had to reload their gun all that their opponent needs to do is throw a grenade or RE and the equipment is indefensible. So really an enemy hardly needs to engage a logi at all if their goal is only to destroy equipment. 3. Large quantities of uplinks are the only way for a logi prevent a speedy redline if your team isn't as capable competitively. You like the sort of matches where neither team can gain any ground on the other and everyone fights really hard? Thank equipment spam for that. Keeping player's ammo full and allowing a team to respawn in time that all the links aren't destroyed. Really if one wants to reduce the necessity of uplink spam, reduce spawn time. also equipment spam doesn't cause lag, so can someone answer? What is the reason to implement this? Just cuz? The maps too blue for people? Do scouts need another edge over logistics suits? Did someone put an uplink by Rattati's uplink while he was shotgun scouting? What is it? Dust 5/14
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5378	Posted - 2014.11.27 07:59:00 - [468] - Quote Heavies im LAVS are an annoyance that just bug people. Legit reasons but they're more likely to just aggravate you than affect the battle more than marginally. Unrestricted equipment spam has encouraged certain obnoxious behavior that doesn't assist the team (hives on a depot), forces atype of play (spawn as many uplinks on the objective as possible and then everyone spawn heavy or scout), and it diminishes dedicated logi players because once the spam is in place the only reason to get In a logi suit is to... Re-drop lost equipment. Then swap back to a slayer. The only other reason to deploy a logi is so you can polin a rep tool on the fatty. Bandwidth should have been a thing from release. People don't need to think about how they are using equipment right now and that is a major problem. Uplink spam substitutes for tactics. Hive spam substitutes for ammo conservation via good aim. The only ones whi I feel might have a legit gripe are people doing combat engineer things like mines but you can guard those in a logi suit. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Nirwanda Vaughns 998	Posted - 2014.11.27 12:46:00 - [469] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: with the changes, seeing as the amount of prox mines dropped is limited could we perhaps have them magnetized in teh same way as AV nades with say a 5 or 10m seek range? it'd make them so much more usefull and mixed with the lower sig radius of a proto one then at least passive scans wont just light them up all time because as it is prox mines are pointless. every tank ont he map can see em from a mile off Which is why you use them as a trap and then drive them into it via AV nades/Forge/Swarms. You chase them off into your field which is what kills the softened vehicle (if they even need softened). as they are now they're useless cos every scout picks them up. with a lower profile they'll be a little better but majority of times when you're going us vs a gunloggi you can have the full 15 out and half won't even detonate, same with saga, i've lined a brindge with a full set of prox's and a saga will speed tank them, one or two may get set off but their activation range/delay makes them pretty s*t compared to AV nades. our main trick atm is to have a forge gunner shoot the tank and have prox's laid behind it and hope it reverses back over them but again, against shield tanks they don't do enough damage or even activate Never argue with an idiot. they bring you down to their level and beat you through experience proud C-II bpo owner*
Kash Tellan Murphys-Law General Tso's Alliance 40	Posted - 2014.11.27 13:40:00 - [470] - Quote I'm not sure if this was brought up in this thread before, but... Will these changes be followed by additions to the HUD? I'd like to be notified on screen about pieces of my deployed equipment popping due to lack of bandwidth. Anything easy would suffice. Perhaps something like this: +50 Kill Viziam Flux Uplink (1 of 2) offline +25 Assist You get the idea. meh

Catgirl White Mage Nekomimi Paradise 19	Posted - 2014.11.27 21:02:00 - [471] - Quote EQ slots are a consistent among Tiers for dropsuit except Logi (Which should also be consistently 4) EQ slots and EQ Bandwidth should disregard Tier. The number of EQ slots you get is a suit role and balancing point, just like Shield and Armor HP, Recharge Delay, Move Speed, et cetera.
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1313	Posted - 2014.11.28 00:52:00 - [472] - Quote #63Posted: 2014.11.27 21:43 \| Report True Adamance wrote: However you have yet to suggest why the logistics player should gain the benefit of using their suit, switching to another, and continuing to have personal and team wide benefits despite being a completely different role. My response: Every suit has this ability to varying degrees already...the uplinks you placed in the perfect spot as a scout remain, correct? Even with bandwidth applied those uplinks will likely still be active when that scout switches to his Six Kin HMG fit then back to his cloak shotgunner fit a few minutes later. Effectively every suit can enjoy the benefits you describe while being in a different role and switch roles with near impunity. I for one actually think that is a strength of the game. The issue is the scale or capacity for spam that logi suits have seem to be the point of contention you bring up. There is no way to impact that without a negative impact on Logi suits short of a dramatic revision of how equipment works in the game. Perhaps the idea of squad bandwidth might level things out...it's honestly difficult to tell. There are numerous variables that are difficult to sort through to try and find an optimal solution in regards to equipment spam. Logi suits desperately need significant redesign already and perhaps bandwidth can be a positive factor but it can't simply be another constraint that they carry the lionshare of the consequences on. One thing i do know about Dust is that nothing scales well. Two scouts add flavor and variety to a team and added tactical challenge to an opponent but 13 of them on one team is broken. The same can be said for heavies, vehicles, and apparently equipment. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Z3dog BIG BAD W0LVES 17	Posted - 2014.11.28 17:36:00 - [473] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: #63Posted: 2014.11.27 21:43 \| Report True Adamance wrote: However you have yet to suggest why the logistics player should gain the benefit of using their suit, switching to another, and continuing to have personal and team wide benefits despite being a completely different role. My response: Every suit has this ability to varying degrees already...the uplinks you placed in the perfect spot as a scout remain, correct? Even with bandwidth applied those uplinks will likely still be active when that scout switches to his Six Kin HMG fit then back to his cloak shotgunner fit a few minutes later. Effectively every suit can enjoy the benefits you describe while being in a different role and switch roles with near impunity. I for one actually think that is a strength of the game. The issue is the scale or capacity for spam that logi suits have seem to be the point of contention you bring up. There is no way to impact that without a negative impact on Logi suits short of a dramatic revision of how equipment works in the game. Perhaps the idea of squad bandwidth might level things out...it's honestly difficult to tell. There are numerous variables that are difficult to sort through to try and find an optimal solution in regards to equipment spam. Logi suits desperately need significant redesign already and perhaps bandwidth can be a positive factor but it can't simply be another constraint that they carry the lionshare of the consequences on. One thing i do know about Dust is that nothing scales well. Two scouts add flavor and variety to a team and added tactical challenge to an opponent but 13 of them on one team is broken. The same can be said for heavies, vehicles, and apparently equipment. This Rattati. This. Dust 5/14
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5524	Posted - 2014.11.29 10:38:00 - [474] - Quote Switching to a suit with no equipment slots should not allow you to retain equipment. Sentinel bandwidth should be zero. Squad bandwidth makes no sense. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1326	Posted - 2014.11.29 14:56:00 - [475] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Switching to a suit with no equipment slots should not allow you to retain equipment. Sentinel bandwidth should be zero. Squad bandwidth makes no sense. 1. Agreed...but you can keep your deployables if you do have bandwidth right? One or two slots worth depending on suit. The cost of switching to suits is exorbitantly higher for the logi with no upside. Losing one or two ammo hives does not in anyway equate to losing a full rack of proto uplinks, ammo hives and triage hives. 2. Agreed. 3. Never said that it did. I heard some folks kicking that around as an alternative and mentioned it, thats all. Also, there is no getting around that if you want to address equipment spam you have to apply hard nerfs to logi suits....which then further undercut a role already being left behind in the dust. My biggest concern is that BW width will go in and we still won't have a rework for the logi suits in hand. If BW (which i still think is a poor idea) goes in...or rather when it goes in, it MUST be either after the logi suit rework or in conjunction with it. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5531	Posted - 2014.11.29 15:17:00 - [476] - Quote Yes if you swap to a suit with bandwidth you lose the equipment that goes over your limit from the oldest (and likely most depleted) to newest in that order. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
dreth longbow Bank of DUST 514 67	Posted - 2014.11.29 17:44:00 - [477] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Heavies im LAVS are an annoyance that just bug people. Legit reasons but they're more likely to just aggravate you than affect the battle more than marginally. Unrestricted equipment spam has encouraged certain obnoxious behavior that doesn't assist the team (hives on a depot), forces atype of play (spawn as many uplinks on the objective as possible and then everyone spawn heavy or scout), and it diminishes dedicated logi players because once the spam is in place the only reason to get In a logi suit is to... Re-drop lost equipment. Then swap back to a slayer. The only other reason to deploy a logi is so you can polin a rep tool on the fatty. Bandwidth should have been a thing from release. People don't need to think about how they are using equipment right now and that is a major problem. Uplink spam substitutes for tactics. Hive spam substitutes for ammo conservation via good aim. The only ones whi I feel might have a legit gripe are people doing combat engineer things like mines but you can guard those in a logi suit. I do not agree with this. BW Their are better solutions to an almost non-existence problem. I for one when I am defending a point by myself go in with a scout take the objective, switch to a logi and lay out drops and nanos ( yes even next to the depot) then switch to a heavy and hope someone comes and helps. Why the drops? to get people to the objective faster so they can spawn more than one every 5 seconds. Why the nano's? Have you ever needed a nade when holding a point and the depot is out of supplies and makes you wait and you die? With nano's and drops one person can take and hold a point until reinforcements arrive, BW would prevent this and it would be a game of rolling taking-moving-taking/losing previous point, wash repeat. not fun!
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5532	Posted - 2014.11.29 20:16:00 - [478] - Quote that kind of solo play needs to be killed with fire. There's already poor incentive to join corps or squad up. being able to do that just lessens any need to do so atrociously EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1350	Posted - 2014.11.29 21:00:00 - [479] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Switching to a suit with no equipment slots should not allow you to retain equipment. Sentinel bandwidth should be zero. Squad bandwidth makes no sense. 1. Agreed...but you can keep your deployables if you do have bandwidth right? One or two slots worth depending on suit. The cost of switching to suits is exorbitantly higher for the logi with no upside. Losing one or two ammo hives does not in anyway equate to losing a full rack of proto uplinks, ammo hives and triage hives. 2. Agreed. 3. Never said that it did. I heard some folks kicking that around as an alternative and mentioned it, thats all. Also, there is no getting around that if you want to address equipment spam you have to apply hard nerfs to logi suits....which then further undercut a role already being left behind in the dust. My biggest concern is that BW width will go in and we still won't have a rework for the logi suits in hand. If BW (which i still think is a poor idea) goes in...or rather when it goes in, it MUST be either after the logi suit rework or in conjunction with it. Nerf? What nerf? As a pure logistics player i actually consider this a major buff,and a big FU to omni soldiers. This will in no way negatively effect dedicated logistics players. It will however destroy those that spam equipment just to switch suits. This IMHO will actually add value to those dedicated logistics players,seeing as how everyone can see how much of a death trap the suit is. They wouldn't want to run the suit themselves (because they'll die easier) so they might actually start covering those brave enough to do so. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5535	Posted - 2014.11.29 21:28:00 - [480] - Quote Meee One wrote: Nerf? What nerf? As a pure logistics player i actually consider this a major buff,and a big FU to omni soldiers. This will in no way negatively effect dedicated logistics players. It will however destroy those that spam equipment just to switch suits. This IMHO will actually add value to those dedicated logistics players,seeing as how everyone can see how much of a death trap the suit is. They wouldn't want to run the suit themselves (because they'll die easier) so they might actually start covering those brave enough to do so. Came to this post intending to troll. Found someone who gets it. Idiocy search parameters re-engaged. Moving along. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.

Stile451 Red Star. EoN. 371	Posted - 2014.11.30 01:04:00 - [481] - Quote With no dev feedback for over 10 days I'm guessing they're not interested in community responses or ideas that aren't in line with the original post.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1351	Posted - 2014.11.30 06:53:00 - [482] - Quote Stile451 wrote: With no dev feedback for over 10 days I'm guessing they're not interested in community responses or ideas that aren't in line with the original post. Well,if the responses consisted of more than BW work around suggestions (BW modules,BW skill,BW on sents),then maybe they would. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4756	Posted - 2014.11.30 13:16:00 - [483] - Quote Meee One wrote: Stile451 wrote: With no dev feedback for over 10 days I'm guessing they're not interested in community responses or ideas that aren't in line with the original post. Well,if the responses consisted of more than BW work around suggestions (BW modules,BW skill,BW on sents),then maybe they would. Or "this sux because I don't understand it and change is scary" (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1334	Posted - 2014.11.30 16:42:00 - [484] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Meee One wrote: Stile451 wrote: With no dev feedback for over 10 days I'm guessing they're not interested in community responses or ideas that aren't in line with the original post. Well,if the responses consisted of more than BW work around suggestions (BW modules,BW skill,BW on sents),then maybe they would. Or "this sux because I don't understand it and change is scary" Or that some of us have legitimate concerns about the implementation of something this radical with little understanding of what other factors may be in play. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5548	Posted - 2014.11.30 16:52:00 - [485] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Meee One wrote: Stile451 wrote: With no dev feedback for over 10 days I'm guessing they're not interested in community responses or ideas that aren't in line with the original post. Well,if the responses consisted of more than BW work around suggestions (BW modules,BW skill,BW on sents),then maybe they would. Or "this sux because I don't understand it and change is scary" Or that some of us have legitimate concerns about the implementation of something this radical with little understanding of what other factors may be in play. And I find your fear not only hilarious, but profitable! EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1334	Posted - 2014.11.30 17:20:00 - [486] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Meee One wrote: Stile451 wrote: With no dev feedback for over 10 days I'm guessing they're not interested in community responses or ideas that aren't in line with the original post. Well,if the responses consisted of more than BW work around suggestions (BW modules,BW skill,BW on sents),then maybe they would. Or "this sux because I don't understand it and change is scary" Or that some of us have legitimate concerns about the implementation of something this radical with little understanding of what other factors may be in play. And I find your fear not only hilarious, but profitable! lol..ok, Breakin, let me know how you profit from it! I might start running low in isk in a couple years and need to pad the wallet. Seriously, though...bandwidth maybe a net positive for the game, however they're are (or were really) other steps they could have taken ro address the issue incrementally. Either way it's not going to stop me from playing logi, far from it. To me the bigger issue is that BW needs to be implemented in conjunction with or after the logi suit update that we are past due for. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
dreth longbow Bank of DUST 514 70	Posted - 2014.11.30 17:41:00 - [487] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: that kind of solo play needs to be killed with fire. There's already poor incentive to join corps or squad up. being able to do that just lessens any need to do so atrociously Why? Should not people be allowed to play how they want? or do you think you should control what is fun and they are playing and paying for?
dreth longbow Bank of DUST 514 70	Posted - 2014.11.30 17:51:00 - [488] - Quote Meee One wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Switching to a suit with no equipment slots should not allow you to retain equipment. Sentinel bandwidth should be zero. Squad bandwidth makes no sense. 1. Agreed...but you can keep your deployables if you do have bandwidth right? One or two slots worth depending on suit. The cost of switching to suits is exorbitantly higher for the logi with no upside. Losing one or two ammo hives does not in anyway equate to losing a full rack of proto uplinks, ammo hives and triage hives. 2. Agreed. 3. Never said that it did. I heard some folks kicking that around as an alternative and mentioned it, thats all. Also, there is no getting around that if you want to address equipment spam you have to apply hard nerfs to logi suits....which then further undercut a role already being left behind in the dust. My biggest concern is that BW width will go in and we still won't have a rework for the logi suits in hand. If BW (which i still think is a poor idea) goes in...or rather when it goes in, it MUST be either after the logi suit rework or in conjunction with it. Nerf? What nerf? As a pure logistics player i actually consider this a major buff,and a big FU to omni soldiers. This will in no way negatively effect dedicated logistics players. It will however destroy those that spam equipment just to switch suits. This IMHO will actually add value to those dedicated logistics players,seeing as how everyone can see how much of a death trap the suit is. They wouldn't want to run the suit themselves (because they'll die easier) so they might actually start covering those brave enough to do so. ummm Why do you have to be a dedicated type player like logi or scout? What about situational awareness? I have spent untold hours developing skill in playing and skill books to have a diversified play style of different types. What type I use depends on the game situation: if my team is fighting and has no spawn points then I give them spawn points to keep fighting for the objective. If my team is getting killed by tanks or DS I try and deal with that with a tank or swarm or DS If my team needs is losing clones and holding an objective then I give them nanos and reps. if my team is pushed to redline then I give them spawn points up high only reached by DS or CRU in my DS over objectives. If my team is noobs and can't get it together then I put on a heavy and assualt the point to show them what they need to do. If all points are red then I put on a scout and run around and hack points to disrupt the enemy and allow a break out. Soooo why should you say I only need to play one type of role?
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4756	Posted - 2014.11.30 18:25:00 - [489] - Quote dreth longbow wrote: Meee One wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Switching to a suit with no equipment slots should not allow you to retain equipment. Sentinel bandwidth should be zero. Squad bandwidth makes no sense. 1. Agreed...but you can keep your deployables if you do have bandwidth right? One or two slots worth depending on suit. The cost of switching to suits is exorbitantly higher for the logi with no upside. Losing one or two ammo hives does not in anyway equate to losing a full rack of proto uplinks, ammo hives and triage hives. 2. Agreed. 3. Never said that it did. I heard some folks kicking that around as an alternative and mentioned it, thats all. Also, there is no getting around that if you want to address equipment spam you have to apply hard nerfs to logi suits....which then further undercut a role already being left behind in the dust. My biggest concern is that BW width will go in and we still won't have a rework for the logi suits in hand. If BW (which i still think is a poor idea) goes in...or rather when it goes in, it MUST be either after the logi suit rework or in conjunction with it. Nerf? What nerf? As a pure logistics player i actually consider this a major buff,and a big FU to omni soldiers. This will in no way negatively effect dedicated logistics players. It will however destroy those that spam equipment just to switch suits. This IMHO will actually add value to those dedicated logistics players,seeing as how everyone can see how much of a death trap the suit is. They wouldn't want to run the suit themselves (because they'll die easier) so they might actually start covering those brave enough to do so. ummm Why do you have to be a dedicated type player like logi or scout? What about situational awareness? I have spent untold hours developing skill in playing and skill books to have a diversified play style of different types. What type I use depends on the game situation: if my team is fighting and has no spawn points then I give them spawn points to keep fighting for the objective. If my team is getting killed by tanks or DS I try and deal with that with a tank or swarm or DS If my team needs is losing clones and holding an objective then I give them nanos and reps. if my team is pushed to redline then I give them spawn points up high only reached by DS or CRU in my DS over objectives. If my team is noobs and can't get it together then I put on a heavy and assualt the point to show them what they need to do. If all points are red then I put on a scout and run around and hack points to disrupt the enemy and allow a break out. Soooo why should you say I only need to play one type of role? Play any role you want, but only one at a time. Not that hard to understand. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5548	Posted - 2014.11.30 19:17:00 - [490] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Play any role you want, but only one at a time. Not that hard to understand. Is this really THAT difficult to comprehend? EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.

Z3dog BIG BAD W0LVES 22	Posted - 2014.11.30 19:31:00 - [491] - Quote The notion that this will eliminate the omni soldier is flawed. There is nothing preventing a scout to spawn at the beginning of a game drop an uplink or two (actually 3, with invisibility) then switch to a logi suit. The difference with BW is that it would only go one way. All in all its just another buff to scout suits. You think they're common at the beginning of matches now? Just wait. Dust 5/14
Z3dog BIG BAD W0LVES 22	Posted - 2014.11.30 19:34:00 - [492] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Play any role you want, but only one at a time. Not that hard to understand. Is this really THAT difficult to comprehend? With bandwidth other suits can still do logistics things. "one at a time" BS. Dust 5/14
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1336	Posted - 2014.11.30 19:47:00 - [493] - Quote I don't mind the "one role at a time" concept at all...it's understandable. The part I do mind is that the penalty for switching roles is dramatically different for logi players vs. any other role. There's not a lot of ways to cut back on the ability to put out high levels of equipment without directly impacting logi suits. I would honestly like them to roll out the update to the support suits before introducing BW. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5549	Posted - 2014.11.30 20:19:00 - [494] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: I don't mind the "one role at a time" concept at all...it's understandable. The part I do mind is that the penalty for switching roles is dramatically different for logi players vs. any other role. There's not a lot of ways to cut back on the ability to put out high levels of equipment without directly impacting logi suits. I would honestly like them to roll out the update to the support suits before introducing BW. Most logi players don't swap roles mid fight. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1336	Posted - 2014.11.30 20:23:00 - [495] - Quote I think that depends on the tactical situation. Switching to once or twice...pretty common; switching to other roles is usually a function of how many other folks you are running with. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4758	Posted - 2014.11.30 20:24:00 - [496] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: I don't mind the "one role at a time" concept at all...it's understandable. The part I do mind is that the penalty for switching roles is dramatically different for logi players vs. any other role. There's not a lot of ways to cut back on the ability to put out high levels of equipment without directly impacting logi suits. I would honestly like them to roll out the update to the support suits before introducing BW. I'm OK with them doing both at once, but agree that doing BW without updating the suits would be a bad idea. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Stile451 Red Star. EoN. 372	Posted - 2014.12.01 03:11:00 - [497] - Quote Meee One wrote: Stile451 wrote: With no dev feedback for over 10 days I'm guessing they're not interested in community responses or ideas that aren't in line with the original post. Well,if the responses consisted of more than BW work around suggestions (BW modules,BW skill,BW on sents),then maybe they would. Dev feedback stopped when people started making suggestions of which many don't address the main issue of performance problems due to spam and instead push personal wants without understanding the main reason behind the need for something like this. Fixing a performance issue is the goal of this change, not forcing a specific group of players into a specific role for the entire match or permanently punishing them if they change roles. There are ways to reach this goal without permanently punishing players.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 12494	Posted - 2014.12.01 09:20:00 - [498] - Quote Dear community We have painstakingly gone through the 25 pages, collected feedback and adjusted the proposal, Cross and the rest of the CPM have also reviewed and given their feedback. Please find the updated numbers here and note that almost every unique comment is addressed on the right hand side: Final Proposal Please give your feedback, clear and concise. Thanks! "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

RedPencil Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 150	Posted - 2014.12.01 10:14:00 - [499] - Quote Thank you for special change for RE, but..... new equipment precision is going to kill RE trap anyway. Beware Paper cut M[;..;]M
nicholas73 Glitched Connection 308	Posted - 2014.12.01 11:00:00 - [500] - Quote So the proxies still remain at 2; they're hardly used anyway, and won't be used at all then. Proud member of Glitched Connection "Only idiots start a fight they can't win" - Sora (No Game No Life)

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5556	Posted - 2014.12.01 11:03:00 - [501] - Quote nicholas73 wrote: So the proxies still remain at 2; they're hardly used anyway, and won't be used at all then. At 32 BW you could lay out 16 proxies at a time. How does this translate to them being discarded? EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Greiv Rabbah 13Art of War13 20	Posted - 2014.12.01 11:08:00 - [502] - Quote I like this
james selim brownstein Zion's Elite 34	Posted - 2014.12.01 11:15:00 - [503] - Quote This may be a stupid question but, will the APEX/FACTION BPO's be categorized under PROTO or BASIC ?
Kain Spero Goonfeet 3879	Posted - 2014.12.01 11:16:00 - [504] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear community We have painstakingly gone through the 25 pages, collected feedback and adjusted the proposal, Cross and the rest of the CPM have also reviewed and given their feedback. Please find the updated numbers here and note that almost every unique comment is addressed on the right hand side: Final Proposal Please give your feedback, clear and concise. Thanks! I like the flat bonus for the Amarr and Caldari logi dropsuits for bandwidth. I think leaving REs at 4 bandwidth would have been better though. Putting Sentinels at 0 BW is good and much needed. I'm really looking forward to seeing this implemented and seeing how it changes how the game is played. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 198	Posted - 2014.12.01 11:40:00 - [505] - Quote FYI the proto "Allotek Nanohive (R) - Armour repair and ammo resupply." is given a BW of 4 whereas the advanced "K17/D Nanohive (R) - Armour repair and ammo resupply." has a higher value of 6
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 365	Posted - 2014.12.01 11:54:00 - [506] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear community We have painstakingly gone through the 25 pages, collected feedback and adjusted the proposal, Cross and the rest of the CPM have also reviewed and given their feedback. Please find the updated numbers here and note that almost every unique comment is addressed on the right hand side: Final Proposal Please give your feedback, clear and concise. Thanks! Dear Rattati, as a long time Logi player (not so much since survivability is down the drain), I do not approve these changes. 1. You make it much harder to be effective as a logi without running proto. 2. You make it impossible for a logi to adapt to the situation by changing Roles, this is a major nerf to game fun for strategic gameplay. (Not all logis prefer to run leashing a heavy) 3. You still leave the possibility to spam equipment for the rest of the roles. 4. You do not adress more importatns stuff like the possibility to drop EQ around supply depots, which shouldn't be possible in the first place. 5. You do not adress the isk cost of Equipment, meaning why can anybody resupply EQ at a supply depot without ISK cost? Charging ISK for EQ/Suit change at Depot would solve more problems than this mediocre change to EQ... I will play logi even less, since it would just be a waste of game time and a liability to the team. Commandos and Assaults will do the logying from now! If you introduce this crap without any buff to the survivability to the logi, it won't be worth to run the class anymore. Cheers Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5556	Posted - 2014.12.01 12:32:00 - [507] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Dear community We have painstakingly gone through the 25 pages, collected feedback and adjusted the proposal, Cross and the rest of the CPM have also reviewed and given their feedback. Please find the updated numbers here and note that almost every unique comment is addressed on the right hand side: Final Proposal Please give your feedback, clear and concise. Thanks! Dear Rattati, as a long time Logi player (not so much since survivability is down the drain), I do not approve these changes. 1. You make it much harder to be effective as a logi without running proto. 2. You make it impossible for a logi to adapt to the situation by changing Roles, this is a major nerf to game fun for strategic gameplay. (Not all logis prefer to run leashing a heavy) 3. You still leave the possibility to spam equipment for the rest of the roles. 4. You do not adress more important stuff like the possibility to drop EQ around supply depots, which shouldn't be possible in the first place. 5. You do not adress the isk cost of Equipment, meaning why can anybody resupply EQ at a supply depot without ISK cost? Charging ISK for EQ/Suit change at Depot would solve more problems than this mediocre change to EQ... I will play logi even less, since it would just be a waste of game time and a liability to the team. Commandos and Assaults will do the logying from now! If you introduce this crap without any buff to the survivability to the logi, it won't be worth to run the class anymore. Cheers And yet there are threads dedicated to addressing the logistics survivability issues in a clear and constructive manner with proposals in play. You really think cross would have bothered wasting the effort if Rattati had said "LOLno logis are fine?" EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4766	Posted - 2014.12.01 12:50:00 - [508] - Quote james selim brownstein wrote: This may be a stupid question but, will the APEX/FACTION BPO's be categorized under PROTO or BASIC ? Actually a good question. I have assumed that they would be counted as pro, would certainly be a good way to keep costs down as a logi. Best to get dev clarification though. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1338	Posted - 2014.12.01 14:01:00 - [509] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Dear community We have painstakingly gone through the 25 pages, collected feedback and adjusted the proposal, Cross and the rest of the CPM have also reviewed and given their feedback. Please find the updated numbers here and note that almost every unique comment is addressed on the right hand side: Final Proposal Please give your feedback, clear and concise. Thanks! Dear Rattati, as a long time Logi player (not so much since survivability is down the drain), I do not approve these changes. 1. You make it much harder to be effective as a logi without running proto. 2. You make it impossible for a logi to adapt to the situation by changing Roles, this is a major nerf to game fun for strategic gameplay. (Not all logis prefer to run leashing a heavy) 3. You still leave the possibility to spam equipment for the rest of the roles. 4. You do not adress more important stuff like the possibility to drop EQ around supply depots, which shouldn't be possible in the first place. 5. You do not adress the isk cost of Equipment, meaning why can anybody resupply EQ at a supply depot without ISK cost? Charging ISK for EQ/Suit change at Depot would solve more problems than this mediocre change to EQ... I will play logi even less, since it would just be a waste of game time and a liability to the team. Commandos and Assaults will do the logying from now! If you introduce this crap without any buff to the survivability to the logi, it won't be worth to run the class anymore. Cheers And yet there are threads dedicated to addressing the logistics survivability issues in a clear and constructive manner with proposals in play. You really think cross would have bothered wasting the effort if Rattati had said "LOLno logis are fine?" Breakin, Cross and IWS both confirmed that this change was likely to go in without any further upgrades or reworks to the logi suits for a while. They did say the logi update was definetly still on the radar though which is good but very concerning. BLUF: I do not feel that this change is on solid foundation without updates to the class most effected by it. You'll also notice in the spread sheet the number of "yes, later" answers on some of the communities concerns...this feels like how CCP used to do things with the "lets get it out there and see what happens" mentality. When this comes out it needs to be close to spot on...it's too big a potential negative shift if it's not. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 12512	Posted - 2014.12.01 14:10:00 - [510] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Dear community We have painstakingly gone through the 25 pages, collected feedback and adjusted the proposal, Cross and the rest of the CPM have also reviewed and given their feedback. Please find the updated numbers here and note that almost every unique comment is addressed on the right hand side: Final Proposal Please give your feedback, clear and concise. Thanks! Dear Rattati, as a long time Logi player (not so much since survivability is down the drain), I do not approve these changes. 1. You make it much harder to be effective as a logi without running proto. 2. You make it impossible for a logi to adapt to the situation by changing Roles, this is a major nerf to game fun for strategic gameplay. (Not all logis prefer to run leashing a heavy) 3. You still leave the possibility to spam equipment for the rest of the roles. 4. You do not adress more important stuff like the possibility to drop EQ around supply depots, which shouldn't be possible in the first place. 5. You do not adress the isk cost of Equipment, meaning why can anybody resupply EQ at a supply depot without ISK cost? Charging ISK for EQ/Suit change at Depot would solve more problems than this mediocre change to EQ... I will play logi even less, since it would just be a waste of game time and a liability to the team. Commandos and Assaults will do the logying from now! If you introduce this crap without any buff to the survivability to the logi, it won't be worth to run the class anymore. Cheers And yet there are threads dedicated to addressing the logistics survivability issues in a clear and constructive manner with proposals in play. You really think cross would have bothered wasting the effort if Rattati had said "LOLno logis are fine?" Breakin, Cross and IWS both confirmed that this change was likely to go in without any further upgrades or reworks to the logi suits for a while. They did say the logi update was definetly still on the radar though which is good but very concerning. BLUF: I do not feel that this change is on solid foundation without updates to the class most effected by it. You'll also notice in the spread sheet the number of "yes, later" answers on some of the communities concerns...this feels like how CCP used to do things with the "lets get it out there and see what happens" mentality. When this comes out it needs to be close to spot on...it's too big a potential negative shift if it's not. So if I hadn't gone through 25 pages, picked every noticeable morsel of feedback, considered and commented specially on each one, then that would have been better? "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 475	Posted - 2014.12.01 14:20:00 - [511] - Quote Regarding changing suits killin eq., my opinion is already clear, but BW is happening whether I or anyone else likes it or not. Being the selfish guy I am, I can give feed back based on the suits/fits i run the most regarding equipment, the Caldari and Amarr adv logi. Amarr Logi: Bandwidth 28 - Vizaim Flux uplink 2 x 4= 8 BW: - Viziam Stable uplink 2 x 4= 8 BW: - BDR-8 rep tool 0 BW Total: 16 BW 12 BW to spare. Caldari Logi: 28BW - K2 nano hive 2x4=8 BW: - Allotek 2x4=8 BW - Wyrikomi nanite injector 0 BW Total: 16bw, 12 BW to spare If I change out to an assault i still keep 3 links or hives active. If I change to an Commando i keep 3 links or hives active If I change to a scout: I keep 2 links or hives active Heavy gets nothing. Basically drop the least valuable links first, and then the good ones might stick around in your other suits as long as you dont need more ammo. My assault suits generally carries scanners so i wont be affected too much. Swarm commandos still get to camp rooftops. (deploy two proto links, respawn with 1 proto hive) Logis can still swtich to any suit EXCEPT a heavy and still keep most of thier deployed equipment. Heavies are going to be even more dependent on their logi brothers. All in all, on paper it actualy looks okay. Also, +1 on vehicle scans going up in scan precision per tier. Also a big - 90000 to the merc who suggested reptools and scanners should cost bandwidth. I'll give Ratatti credit on killing that proposal dead. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 9248	Posted - 2014.12.01 14:56:00 - [512] - Quote I'm still very confused why dedicated logis would be upset with this. Especially changing suits. Isn't changing suits to say a sentinel a fair trade off to having all your deployed equipment on the field? Why is it that players think there should be no trade off? And if there isn't, like it is now, that just opens the door to anyone with a lot of skill points to skill into logis simply to spam equipment then switch. So you have all these non logi players doing the role of a logi, whereas with this change only the dedicated logis get to logi. You'd think people would be happy about that, except the people who abused the no trade off system. Also being a dedicated logi doesn't mean baby sitting a sentinel. Last I checked not fitting a repair tool doesn't make the fit invalid. Amarr are the good guys Join "PIE Ground Control" for secure Amarr FW syncing and orbital support
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1340	Posted - 2014.12.01 15:34:00 - [513] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Dear community We have painstakingly gone through the 25 pages, collected feedback and adjusted the proposal, Cross and the rest of the CPM have also reviewed and given their feedback. Please find the updated numbers here and note that almost every unique comment is addressed on the right hand side: Final Proposal Please give your feedback, clear and concise. Thanks! Dear Rattati, as a long time Logi player (not so much since survivability is down the drain), I do not approve these changes. 1. You make it much harder to be effective as a logi without running proto. 2. You make it impossible for a logi to adapt to the situation by changing Roles, this is a major nerf to game fun for strategic gameplay. (Not all logis prefer to run leashing a heavy) 3. You still leave the possibility to spam equipment for the rest of the roles. 4. You do not adress more important stuff like the possibility to drop EQ around supply depots, which shouldn't be possible in the first place. 5. You do not adress the isk cost of Equipment, meaning why can anybody resupply EQ at a supply depot without ISK cost? Charging ISK for EQ/Suit change at Depot would solve more problems than this mediocre change to EQ... I will play logi even less, since it would just be a waste of game time and a liability to the team. Commandos and Assaults will do the logying from now! If you introduce this crap without any buff to the survivability to the logi, it won't be worth to run the class anymore. Cheers And yet there are threads dedicated to addressing the logistics survivability issues in a clear and constructive manner with proposals in play. You really think cross would have bothered wasting the effort if Rattati had said "LOLno logis are fine?" Breakin, Cross and IWS both confirmed that this change was likely to go in without any further upgrades or reworks to the logi suits for a while. They did say the logi update was definetly still on the radar though which is good but very concerning. BLUF: I do not feel that this change is on solid foundation without updates to the class most effected by it. You'll also notice in the spread sheet the number of "yes, later" answers on some of the communities concerns...this feels like how CCP used to do things with the "lets get it out there and see what happens" mentality. When this comes out it needs to be close to spot on...it's too big a potential negative shift if it's not. So if I hadn't gone through 25 pages, picked every noticeable morsel of feedback, considered and commented specially on each one, then that would have been better? Not sure where you are coming from on this. My point is that I think you've done an outstanding job of cataloging many of the player concerns and there seems to be some areas that could continue to be matured a little longer. I never indicated that it wasn't a good thing the way you captured and adjusted your BW concept based on some players feedback. It definitetly better than the original. Still not a fan of it per se but that ship has sailed and I want to focus on making it as good of a mechanic as possible. My bigger concern is the BW changes being done in isolation from adjustments to the Logisitcs class that seriously needs a refresh. Would you be willing to implement the logi refresh in conjunction with implementing the BW mechanic? "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Terry Webber Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 512	Posted - 2014.12.01 15:34:00 - [514] - Quote As a logi that doesn't usually carry uplinks or deploy nanohives, I don't think this change will affect me. I usually use a scanner or a reptool.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 12515	Posted - 2014.12.01 15:42:00 - [515] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Dear community We have painstakingly gone through the 25 pages, collected feedback and adjusted the proposal, Cross and the rest of the CPM have also reviewed and given their feedback. Please find the updated numbers here and note that almost every unique comment is addressed on the right hand side: Final Proposal Please give your feedback, clear and concise. Thanks! Dear Rattati, as a long time Logi player (not so much since survivability is down the drain), I do not approve these changes. 1. You make it much harder to be effective as a logi without running proto. 2. You make it impossible for a logi to adapt to the situation by changing Roles, this is a major nerf to game fun for strategic gameplay. (Not all logis prefer to run leashing a heavy) 3. You still leave the possibility to spam equipment for the rest of the roles. 4. You do not adress more important stuff like the possibility to drop EQ around supply depots, which shouldn't be possible in the first place. 5. You do not adress the isk cost of Equipment, meaning why can anybody resupply EQ at a supply depot without ISK cost? Charging ISK for EQ/Suit change at Depot would solve more problems than this mediocre change to EQ... I will play logi even less, since it would just be a waste of game time and a liability to the team. Commandos and Assaults will do the logying from now! If you introduce this crap without any buff to the survivability to the logi, it won't be worth to run the class anymore. Cheers And yet there are threads dedicated to addressing the logistics survivability issues in a clear and constructive manner with proposals in play. You really think cross would have bothered wasting the effort if Rattati had said "LOLno logis are fine?" Breakin, Cross and IWS both confirmed that this change was likely to go in without any further upgrades or reworks to the logi suits for a while. They did say the logi update was definetly still on the radar though which is good but very concerning. BLUF: I do not feel that this change is on solid foundation without updates to the class most effected by it. You'll also notice in the spread sheet the number of "yes, later" answers on some of the communities concerns...this feels like how CCP used to do things with the "lets get it out there and see what happens" mentality. When this comes out it needs to be close to spot on...it's too big a potential negative shift if it's not. So if I hadn't gone through 25 pages, picked every noticeable morsel of feedback, considered and commented specially on each one, then that would have been better? Not sure where you are coming from on this. My point is that I think you've done an outstanding job of cataloging many of the player concerns and there seems to be some areas that could continue to be matured a little longer. I never indicated that it wasn't a good thing the way you captured and adjusted your BW concept based on some players feedback. It definitetly better than the original. Still not a fan of it per se but that ship has sailed and I want to focus on making it as good of a mechanic as possible. My bigger concern are the BW changes being done in isolation from adjustments to the Logisitcs class that seriously needs a refresh. Would you be willing to implement the logi refresh in conjunction with implementing the BW mechanic? "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 366	Posted - 2014.12.01 15:45:00 - [516] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Dear community We have painstakingly gone through the 25 pages, collected feedback and adjusted the proposal, Cross and the rest of the CPM have also reviewed and given their feedback. Please find the updated numbers here and note that almost every unique comment is addressed on the right hand side: Final Proposal Please give your feedback, clear and concise. Thanks! Dear Rattati, as a long time Logi player (not so much since survivability is down the drain), I do not approve these changes. 1. You make it much harder to be effective as a logi without running proto. 2. You make it impossible for a logi to adapt to the situation by changing Roles, this is a major nerf to game fun for strategic gameplay. (Not all logis prefer to run leashing a heavy) 3. You still leave the possibility to spam equipment for the rest of the roles. 4. You do not adress more important stuff like the possibility to drop EQ around supply depots, which shouldn't be possible in the first place. 5. You do not adress the isk cost of Equipment, meaning why can anybody resupply EQ at a supply depot without ISK cost? Charging ISK for EQ/Suit change at Depot would solve more problems than this mediocre change to EQ... I will play logi even less, since it would just be a waste of game time and a liability to the team. Commandos and Assaults will do the logying from now! If you introduce this crap without any buff to the survivability to the logi, it won't be worth to run the class anymore. Cheers And yet there are threads dedicated to addressing the logistics survivability issues in a clear and constructive manner with proposals in play. You really think cross would have bothered wasting the effort if Rattati had said "LOLno logis are fine?" Breakin, Cross and IWS both confirmed that this change was likely to go in without any further upgrades or reworks to the logi suits for a while. They did say the logi update was definetly still on the radar though which is good but very concerning. BLUF: I do not feel that this change is on solid foundation without updates to the class most effected by it. You'll also notice in the spread sheet the number of "yes, later" answers on some of the communities concerns...this feels like how CCP used to do things with the "lets get it out there and see what happens" mentality. When this comes out it needs to be close to spot on...it's too big a potential negative shift if it's not. So if I hadn't gone through 25 pages, picked every noticeable morsel of feedback, considered and commented specially on each one, then that would have been better? Hey Rattati, just to be clear. I appreciate all your hard work so far on improving the dust experience. But seriously, this change will punish all players who have skilled into logi without regarding themselves as Pure logis (i.e. never using other frames). I could live with those changes, if EQ below BW would not be DESTROYED but DEACTIVATED, until a suit with enough BW is spawned again. This would allow Logis to change into another role without sacrificing all the strategic work he did before. This is very important for every player who places EQ strategically instead of just at the nearest supply depot! That all ASSault players and lol scouts ignore this fact is part of the "He's a logi, so he better bring our stuff and get out of the way!" attitude of the general populae in DUST. So the only ones dependent on Logis will be heavies... and even they will be fine if the stuff get's dropped by assaults instead... I think if you keep the changes, at least make all repping EQ (hives and repper) Logi only. So that not everybody and his mom can do the stuff the logis are supposed to do. Cheers Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 13477	Posted - 2014.12.01 15:54:00 - [517] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: Hey Rattati, just to be clear. I appreciate all your hard work so far on improving the dust experience. But seriously, this change will punish all players who have skilled into logi without regarding themselves as Pure logis (i.e. never using other frames). I could live with those changes, if EQ below BW would not be DESTROYED but DEACTIVATED, until a suit with enough BW is spawned again. This would allow Logis to change into another role without sacrificing all the strategic work he did before. This is very important for every player who places EQ strategically instead of just at the nearest supply depot! That all ASSault players and lol scouts ignore this fact is part of the "He's a logi, so he better bring our stuff and get out of the way!" attitude of the general populae in DUST. So the only ones dependent on Logis will be heavies... and even they will be fine if the stuff get's dropped by assaults instead... I think if you keep the changes, at least make all repping EQ (hives and repper) Logi only. So that not everybody and his mom can do the stuff the logis are supposed to do. Cheers So, do you also expect an Assault to keep the two light weapons when he switches from a Commando? Or maybe the HMG when he switches from a Sentinel? Hmm, why not the cloak too when switching from the Scout? Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5567	Posted - 2014.12.01 15:54:00 - [518] - Quote It will reinforce each suit having advantages and disadvantages. Players bypass logi weaknesses by changing suits while enjoying the benefit of equipment spam. It makes dedicated logis utterly unnecessary and largely superfluous. This needs to change. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1341	Posted - 2014.12.01 16:16:00 - [519] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: You'll also notice in the spread sheet the number of "yes, later" answers on some of the communities concerns...this feels like how CCP used to do things with the "lets get it out there and see what happens" mentality. So if I hadn't gone through 25 pages, picked every noticeable morsel of feedback, considered and commented specially on each one, then that would have been better? Not sure where you are coming from on this. I'll admit it, I felt this was unfair criticism, the "Yes, later" referred to mostly tangential extra designs, but anyway. Cross, our resident CPM Logi was more than happy to play the wait and see card, especially since Logis may have a new role with EWAR changes. I also believe that everyone got a fair chance and this proposal has overwhelming support, from what we can see. Apologies if I wasn't clear with the "yes, later" post. I know that you are looking for additional feedback to the spreadsheet and as noted elsewhere I appreciate the chance to provide feedback. Reference Cross advocating to hold off on updating support roles....he is a friend and i often run with him, however, he is not nearly the total of the logi community. I susepct if you asked the logi community would they rather have their suit updated now and incremented on later or wait for down the road changes after two potentially huge shifts (BW & EWAR) go into place I think they would like refreshed suits / roles with tweaks based on BW & EWAR. My frustration is that there is no path or objective we see you driving at with roles/classes/ect. I suspect you have that pathway and probably have shared it with some of the CPM. The rest of the player community can only react to individual pieces in isolation and speculate at best on the synchronicity or connectivity to both announced much less unknown goals. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 366	Posted - 2014.12.01 16:16:00 - [520] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: Hey Rattati, just to be clear. I appreciate all your hard work so far on improving the dust experience. But seriously, this change will punish all players who have skilled into logi without regarding themselves as Pure logis (i.e. never using other frames). I could live with those changes, if EQ below BW would not be DESTROYED but DEACTIVATED, until a suit with enough BW is spawned again. This would allow Logis to change into another role without sacrificing all the strategic work he did before. This is very important for every player who places EQ strategically instead of just at the nearest supply depot! That all ASSault players and lol scouts ignore this fact is part of the "He's a logi, so he better bring our stuff and get out of the way!" attitude of the general populae in DUST. So the only ones dependent on Logis will be heavies... and even they will be fine if the stuff get's dropped by assaults instead... I think if you keep the changes, at least make all repping EQ (hives and repper) Logi only. So that not everybody and his mom can do the stuff the logis are supposed to do. Cheers So, do you also expect an Assault to keep the two light weapons when he switches from a Commando? Or maybe the HMG when he switches from a Sentinel? Hmm, why not the cloak too when switching from the Scout? No I don't, but I also do not expect that all kills you did with that HMG get taken from the board. Fact is, that if you play a logi as battlefield manager (deploying links in strategic positions which can take quite some time on certain maps) your effort gets taken away by one suit change into another class. If the Uplinks would be just DEACTIVATED instead of DESTROYED, I would have the possibility to go back to said logi suits and not have my work from the start of the game wasted. I agree that you should not change suits roles without cost, but so far the only ones who lose earlier efforts, are the logis. Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...

Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 366	Posted - 2014.12.01 16:19:00 - [521] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: It will reinforce each suit having advantages and disadvantages. Players bypass logi weaknesses by changing suits while enjoying the benefit of equipment spam. It makes dedicated logis utterly unnecessary and largely superfluous. This needs to change. Dedicated logis will still be pathetically weak. The result will probs be the following, deploy EQ suit, put stuff down, change to slayer logi with basic stuff on as backup... Well if that's what everybody wants, great MISSION ACCOMPLISHED Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5568	Posted - 2014.12.01 16:20:00 - [522] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: Hey Rattati, just to be clear. I appreciate all your hard work so far on improving the dust experience. But seriously, this change will punish all players who have skilled into logi without regarding themselves as Pure logis (i.e. never using other frames). I could live with those changes, if EQ below BW would not be DESTROYED but DEACTIVATED, until a suit with enough BW is spawned again. This would allow Logis to change into another role without sacrificing all the strategic work he did before. This is very important for every player who places EQ strategically instead of just at the nearest supply depot! That all ASSault players and lol scouts ignore this fact is part of the "He's a logi, so he better bring our stuff and get out of the way!" attitude of the general populae in DUST. So the only ones dependent on Logis will be heavies... and even they will be fine if the stuff get's dropped by assaults instead... I think if you keep the changes, at least make all repping EQ (hives and repper) Logi only. So that not everybody and his mom can do the stuff the logis are supposed to do. Cheers So, do you also expect an Assault to keep the two light weapons when he switches from a Commando? Or maybe the HMG when he switches from a Sentinel? Hmm, why not the cloak too when switching from the Scout? No I don't, but I also do not expect that all kills you did with that HMG get taken from the board. Fact is, that if you play a logi as battlefield manager (deploying links in strategic positions which can take quite some time on certain maps) your effort gets taken away by one suit change into another class. If the Uplinks would be just DEACTIVATED instead of DESTROYED, I would have the possibility to go back to said logi suits and not have my work from the start of the game wasted. I agree that you should not change suits roles without cost, but so far the only ones who lose earlier efforts, are the logis. Fine, if I kill you, you should have to respawn in a different match. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 12519	Posted - 2014.12.01 16:20:00 - [523] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: You'll also notice in the spread sheet the number of "yes, later" answers on some of the communities concerns...this feels like how CCP used to do things with the "lets get it out there and see what happens" mentality. So if I hadn't gone through 25 pages, picked every noticeable morsel of feedback, considered and commented specially on each one, then that would have been better? Not sure where you are coming from on this. I'll admit it, I felt this was unfair criticism, the "Yes, later" referred to mostly tangential extra designs, but anyway. Cross, our resident CPM Logi was more than happy to play the wait and see card, especially since Logis may have a new role with EWAR changes. I also believe that everyone got a fair chance and this proposal has overwhelming support, from what we can see. Apologies if I wasn't clear with the "yes, later" post. I know that you are looking for additional feedback to the spreadsheet and as noted elsewhere I appreciate the chance to provide feedback. Reference Cross advocating to hold off on updating support roles....he is a friend and i often run with him, however, he is not nearly the total of the logi community. I susepct if you asked the logi community would they rather have their suit updated now and incremented on later or wait for down the road changes after two potentially huge shifts (BW & EWAR) go into place I think they would like refreshed suits / roles with tweaks based on BW & EWAR. My frustration is that there is no path or objective we see you driving at with roles/classes/ect. I suspect you have that pathway and probably have shared it with some of the CPM. The rest of the player community can only react to individual pieces in isolation and speculate at best on the synchronicity or connectivity to both announced much less unknown goals. That's it, this is not a logi balance pass, it's an equipment pass and one of the benefits is to strengthen the logi and make it more unique, not an afterthought you shed after 1 minute of spamming. Equipment Bandwidth is for the good of the game, and for Logis, in that order. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 367	Posted - 2014.12.01 16:29:00 - [524] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Fine, if I kill you, you should have to respawn in a different match. Meaning what? Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5568	Posted - 2014.12.01 16:32:00 - [525] - Quote read your first line in the previous post and figure it out. If you're going to say something inane and ridiculous, expect an inane and ridiculous response. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1342	Posted - 2014.12.01 16:43:00 - [526] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: That's it, this is not a logi balance pass, it's an equipment pass and one of the benefits is to strengthen the logi and make it more unique, not an afterthought you shed after 1 minute of spamming. Equipment Bandwidth is for the good of the game, and for Logis, in that order. Agreed not a logi balance pass but it is one that greatly effects them. How you implement it will determine the assesment of positive or negative and your track record is for the most part pretty good in this regard. I like the idea of increaseing the value of support players obviously. I would also offer that if some of our logi suits game worthiness weren't weighted entirely on deployable equipment this would be a lot smoother to work with. Balancing the equipment and the logi's inconjunction wtih each other is similar to why cloak and scouts need to get looked at together. I do like the BW bump to Amarr and Cal logi you noted in the spreadsheet and it clearly helps the two races that are heavily dependant on deployable bonuses. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 367	Posted - 2014.12.01 16:49:00 - [527] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: read your first line in the previous post and figure it out. If you're going to say something inane and ridiculous, expect an inane and ridiculous response. Whatever... Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...
Stile451 Red Star. EoN. 372	Posted - 2014.12.01 16:50:00 - [528] - Quote What is CCPs stance on deactivation vs destruction? Have you done any tests to check on the performance impact(which from what I understand is the main reason to implement bandwidth)?
Greiv Rabbah 13Art of War13 20	Posted - 2014.12.01 17:34:00 - [529] - Quote Stile451 wrote: What is CCPs stance on deactivation vs destruction? Have you done any tests to check on the performance impact(which from what I understand is the main reason to implement bandwidth)? I think they're going with destruction. Would free up resources and help deal with ppl lagging maps
Greiv Rabbah 13Art of War13 20	Posted - 2014.12.01 17:50:00 - [530] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: You'll also notice in the spread sheet the number of "yes, later" answers on some of the communities concerns...this feels like how CCP used to do things with the "lets get it out there and see what happens" mentality. So if I hadn't gone through 25 pages, picked every noticeable morsel of feedback, considered and commented specially on each one, then that would have been better? Not sure where you are coming from on this. I'll admit it, I felt this was unfair criticism, the "Yes, later" referred to mostly tangential extra designs, but anyway. Cross, our resident CPM Logi was more than happy to play the wait and see card, especially since Logis may have a new role with EWAR changes. I also believe that everyone got a fair chance and this proposal has overwhelming support, from what we can see. This may be unfair criticism... Some people can only say bad things about dust no matter what changes are made. Whether they get what they want, its "CCP screwed up". Id try not to take it personally, many of us who have been here more than a year have gotten burned pretty bad amd have some very valid trust issues with ccp

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5568	Posted - 2014.12.01 17:59:00 - [531] - Quote Greiv Rabbah wrote: This may be unfair criticism... Some people can only say bad things about dust no matter what changes are made. Whether they get what they want, its "CCP screwed up". Id try not to take it personally, many of us who have been here more than a year have gotten burned pretty bad amd have some very valid trust issues with ccp None of which have come from Rattati. He actually listens to us, I think it's only fair that the reverse should be true more than it often is. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Dubya Guy Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 50	Posted - 2014.12.01 18:57:00 - [532] - Quote Thank you CCP. Thank you for all of the efforts recently to change and improve the game. As someone who is NOT a GÇ£closed beta vetGÇ¥, and therefore perhaps not as jaded as some others, I have to say I am impressed with the amount of effort being made to improve the game. Successful or not, you ARE trying. Do I agree that Equipment Bandwidth was the best way to achieve your stated goals (5 bullets esp. fixing spam) from the original post? No. But thanks to some helpful comments by others early on I came to realize that different methods for obtaining those goals were never on the table via this thread. This thread was not for the purpose of debating alternatives, or even the relative merits of Equipment Bandwidth. That ship had already sailed (floated as early as Dec 2013)...and I missed it. Bandwidth was the (somehow) selected solution. This thread was always about tweaking the numbers for Bandwidth. Although I and others were resistant to accepting that reality , I have a greater understanding now for the process. Thank you CCP Rattati for reading through all 25+ pages of angst and frustration to glean the few tidbits that actually addressed the point of your posting...to come up with numerical baselines for the Bandwidth project. I am sorry I was slow in realizing the place in this plan you were already at, and for contributing to the unhelpful and off-task portions of the thread. Please keep making changes and do not be discouraged. Sincerely, A dedicated, 100% of the time Logi, who has never had more than 2 active uplinks and 2 active hives on a map. FPS = First Person Support. Kills win battles but it's kinda hard to kill if you're dead and out of ammo.
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 868	Posted - 2014.12.01 19:58:00 - [533] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: The result will probs be the following, deploy EQ suit, put stuff down, change to slayer logi with basic stuff on as backup... This appears like a valid concern. You don't in fact have to equip a deployable item to keep it on the field. A 950 ehp slayer-logi will do that just fine (as just configured at protofits.com). That's definitely a weakness of the current design proposal. ... Of course that is a weakness it shares with the currently implemented design, but a weakness still. The much simpler "if you don't have it equipped on your suit it goes pop"-rule would solve that and the EQ-spam without the whole EQ bandwidth design...
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5574	Posted - 2014.12.01 20:02:00 - [534] - Quote 950 HP slayer logi is still pretty crappy compared to a solid assault fit. You're going to move slower than a fatsuit. Plus a sentinel or scout will fart and kill you in less than 1.5 seconds. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4767	Posted - 2014.12.01 20:07:00 - [535] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: That's it, this is not a logi balance pass, it's an equipment pass and one of the benefits is to strengthen the logi and make it more unique, not an afterthought you shed after 1 minute of spamming. Equipment Bandwidth is for the good of the game, and for Logis, in that order. Agreed not a logi balance pass but it is one that greatly effects them. How you implement it will determine the assesment of positive or negative and your track record is for the most part pretty good in this regard. I like the idea of increaseing the value of support players obviously. I would also offer that if some of our logi suits game worthiness weren't weighted entirely on deployable equipment this would be a lot smoother to work with. Balancing the equipment and the logi's inconjunction wtih each other is similar to why cloak and scouts need to get looked at together. I do like the BW bump to Amarr and Cal logi you noted in the spreadsheet and it clearly helps the two races that are heavily dependant on deployable bonuses. It's no secret I've been a fan of the BW mechanic all along, even as someone heavily dependant on deployable EQ. That said, I have to agree with Jaysyn to an extent. My concern, Rattati, is in terms of timing and GÇ£qualityGÇ¥ (for lack of a better word) of the forthcoming logi balance pass. By timing, I mean that one, hopefully it actually happens, and two, concern that the implementation of BW might delay it some, which also brings me to the point of quality. Assuming this change works as intended/hoped, we will see more logi suits in the field as people who migrated away to scouts (even I did, to a limited extent) come back. My concern is that the proliferation of logi suits might make them seem more effective than they really are. Your use of statistics, like with the RR for example, is commendable for its transparency and, for the most part, solidly drawn conclusions, unlike some of your predecessors. But, as someone who deals with experimental data frequently, I know all too well that it is subject to not only manipulation, which I donGÇÖt think would really be the case here, but also to less sinister problems like misapplication or misinterpretation (which would not be unprecedented here). I fear that if more people start using logi suits, they will appear more effective than they really are and this will adversely affect any true balance pass that comes later (dare I say, soonGäó). Some have suggested the opposite may happen, with more people using them, the liabilities will be that much more obvious and this will speed things up. That would obviously be fine with me but I have learned not to be that optimistic when it comes to Dust balancing. TL;DR: I fully support BW and have no problem with the current proposal. Just donGÇÖt delay or forget about the logi suits themselves. WeGÇÖve been slowly dying for reasons totally unrelated to GÇ£suit touristsGÇ¥ or EQ spam for some time now. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4767	Posted - 2014.12.01 20:11:00 - [536] - Quote Stefan Stahl wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: The result will probs be the following, deploy EQ suit, put stuff down, change to slayer logi with basic stuff on as backup... This appears like a valid concern. You don't in fact have to equip a deployable item to keep it on the field. A 950 ehp slayer-logi will do that just fine (as just configured at protofits.com). That's definitely a weakness of the current design proposal. ... Of course that is a weakness it shares with the currently implemented design, but a weakness still. The much simpler "if you don't have it equipped on your suit it goes pop"-rule would solve that and the EQ-spam without the whole EQ bandwidth design... That would be entirely too restrictive. And expensive. And disproportionately hammer the Caldari and Amarr logi's. Not totally sure it would be that much "simpler" either, considering bandwidth is something the servers already know how to deal with. People throw terms like "easier" and "simpler" around way too often around here.... (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 483	Posted - 2014.12.01 20:14:00 - [537] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: It will reinforce each suit having advantages and disadvantages. Players bypass logi weaknesses by changing suits while enjoying the benefit of equipment spam. It makes dedicated logis utterly unnecessary and largely superfluous. This needs to change. I completley disagree with you here. Hives and uplinks are only two of the 4 things a logi takes responsibility for. Though i use the amarr and cal logi for deployables, I carry other equipment on them because the suits need staying power beyond just drop and forget. The "weakness" may be in direct 1 v 1 combat, but if that's your primary usage of a logi then you're doing it wrong. There has never been a match where a dedicated logi was made superflous by equipment spammed around a supply depot. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5576	Posted - 2014.12.01 20:22:00 - [538] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: It will reinforce each suit having advantages and disadvantages. Players bypass logi weaknesses by changing suits while enjoying the benefit of equipment spam. It makes dedicated logis utterly unnecessary and largely superfluous. This needs to change. I completley disagree with you here. Hives and uplinks are only two of the 4 things a logi takes responsibility for. Though i use the amarr and cal logi for deployables, I carry other equipment on them because the suits need staying power beyond just drop and forget. The "weakness" may be in direct 1 v 1 combat, but if that's your primary usage of a logi then you're doing it wrong. There has never been a match where a dedicated logi was made superflous by equipment spammed around a supply depot. the point. It has flown over your head. Warpoint spam from uplinks and hives IS a benefit from logi suits. crap them out, swap suits, trash stays, warpoints free of effort or concern flow in. No risk, since you swapped back, you're in no danger of losing an expensive logistics fit. and since you can drop asstons of hives, why not make two fits? one to spam hives, another to cover 75% of your team's uplink limit by yourself, then swap to a useful suit and go kill people? THAT'S what I'm talking about when I say bypassing logi weaknesses. It's not tactical flexibility. it's farming. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4767	Posted - 2014.12.01 20:37:00 - [539] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: It will reinforce each suit having advantages and disadvantages. Players bypass logi weaknesses by changing suits while enjoying the benefit of equipment spam. It makes dedicated logis utterly unnecessary and largely superfluous. This needs to change. I completley disagree with you here. Hives and uplinks are only two of the 4 things a logi takes responsibility for. Though i use the amarr and cal logi for deployables, I carry other equipment on them because the suits need staying power beyond just drop and forget. The "weakness" may be in direct 1 v 1 combat, but if that's your primary usage of a logi then you're doing it wrong. There has never been a match where a dedicated logi was made superflous by equipment spammed around a supply depot. the point. It has flown over your head. Warpoint spam from uplinks and hives IS a benefit from logi suits. crap them out, swap suits, trash stays, warpoints free of effort or concern flow in. No risk, since you swapped back, you're in no danger of losing an expensive logistics fit. and since you can drop asstons of hives, why not make two fits? one to spam hives, another to cover 75% of your team's uplink limit by yourself, then swap to a useful suit and go kill people? THAT'S what I'm talking about when I say bypassing logi weaknesses. It's not tactical flexibility. it's farming. Also, EQ being spammed around supply depots is only part of the problem. They give cheap WP to the spammers but don't actively steal any from me, unlike the asshats who like to spawn in on my carefully positioned uplink and drop two of their own on top of it. The 30 spawns on that bonused quantum uplink are very unlikely to get used up, so that's not tactical either, it's pure douchbaggery. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 483	Posted - 2014.12.01 21:35:00 - [540] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: It will reinforce each suit having advantages and disadvantages. Players bypass logi weaknesses by changing suits while enjoying the benefit of equipment spam. It makes dedicated logis utterly unnecessary and largely superfluous. This needs to change. I completley disagree with you here. Hives and uplinks are only two of the 4 things a logi takes responsibility for. Though i use the amarr and cal logi for deployables, I carry other equipment on them because the suits need staying power beyond just drop and forget. The "weakness" may be in direct 1 v 1 combat, but if that's your primary usage of a logi then you're doing it wrong. There has never been a match where a dedicated logi was made superflous by equipment spammed around a supply depot. the point. It has flown over your head. Warpoint spam from uplinks and hives IS a benefit from logi suits. crap them out, swap suits, trash stays, warpoints free of effort or concern flow in. No risk, since you swapped back, you're in no danger of losing an expensive logistics fit. and since you can drop asstons of hives, why not make two fits? one to spam hives, another to cover 75% of your team's uplink limit by yourself, then swap to a useful suit and go kill people? THAT'S what I'm talking about when I say bypassing logi weaknesses. It's not tactical flexibility. it's farming. Your reflexes were too slow. All I said was equipment spam does not make dedicated logis superflous as you claimed. The entire scenario you bring up relies solely on control of the supply depot. You have proto forge guns, exactly what stopping you from popping that supply depot? The only one out of reach from ranged weapons in all of dust is the gallente research facillity, where this entire spam, lagfest, fiasco started. PC corps figured they could break the game doing it and here we are today. And even in there, without a dedicated logi keeping those heavies standing its extremely difficult to hold. You're a dedicated heavy, do you always ask for nanohive "trash", uplinks "spam" from logis that you don't bring in, pay for or invest SP into? I'm sure out of principle you walk from the redline rather than to spawn in on that garbage. I am equally sure you call in a lav and drive to nearest supply depot rather than touch a spammers nanohive. Be sure not to after this drops, make sure you don't help those guys farm WP. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.

iKILLu osborne Titans of Phoenix 495	Posted - 2014.12.02 00:27:00 - [541] - Quote hmm i approve, this will definitely change the pc landscape if you shoot me from the redline i will ensure your death will be a swift one
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 367	Posted - 2014.12.02 01:11:00 - [542] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Stefan Stahl wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: The result will probs be the following, deploy EQ suit, put stuff down, change to slayer logi with basic stuff on as backup... This appears like a valid concern. You don't in fact have to equip a deployable item to keep it on the field. A 950 ehp slayer-logi will do that just fine (as just configured at protofits.com). That's definitely a weakness of the current design proposal. ... Of course that is a weakness it shares with the currently implemented design, but a weakness still. The much simpler "if you don't have it equipped on your suit it goes pop"-rule would solve that and the EQ-spam without the whole EQ bandwidth design... That would be entirely too restrictive. And expensive. And disproportionately hammer the Caldari and Amarr logi's. Not totally sure it would be that much "simpler" either, considering bandwidth is something the servers already know how to deal with. People throw terms like "easier" and "simpler" around way too often around here.... The simple version would have been, to charge everyone for switching suits or loadouts. So as soon as you switch suits, everything that's not part of the new loadout gets dropped on the Battlefield and is taken from your assets. EQ Spam would still be possible but at a price in isk. To prevent role switching, just treat every role change at supply depot as suicide. I would be perfectly fine with that, but every spammer would not! Cheers Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4772	Posted - 2014.12.02 03:42:00 - [543] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Stefan Stahl wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: The result will probs be the following, deploy EQ suit, put stuff down, change to slayer logi with basic stuff on as backup... This appears like a valid concern. You don't in fact have to equip a deployable item to keep it on the field. A 950 ehp slayer-logi will do that just fine (as just configured at protofits.com). That's definitely a weakness of the current design proposal. ... Of course that is a weakness it shares with the currently implemented design, but a weakness still. The much simpler "if you don't have it equipped on your suit it goes pop"-rule would solve that and the EQ-spam without the whole EQ bandwidth design... That would be entirely too restrictive. And expensive. And disproportionately hammer the Caldari and Amarr logi's. Not totally sure it would be that much "simpler" either, considering bandwidth is something the servers already know how to deal with. People throw terms like "easier" and "simpler" around way too often around here.... The simple version would have been, to charge everyone for switching suits or loadouts. So as soon as you switch suits, everything that's not part of the new loadout gets dropped on the Battlefield and is taken from your assets. EQ Spam would still be possible but at a price in isk. To prevent role switching, just treat every role change at supply depot as suicide. I would be perfectly fine with that, but every ~~spammer~~Amarr and Caldari logi would not! Cheers FTFY (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5581	Posted - 2014.12.02 05:21:00 - [544] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: It will reinforce each suit having advantages and disadvantages. Players bypass logi weaknesses by changing suits while enjoying the benefit of equipment spam. It makes dedicated logis utterly unnecessary and largely superfluous. This needs to change. I completley disagree with you here. Hives and uplinks are only two of the 4 things a logi takes responsibility for. Though i use the amarr and cal logi for deployables, I carry other equipment on them because the suits need staying power beyond just drop and forget. The "weakness" may be in direct 1 v 1 combat, but if that's your primary usage of a logi then you're doing it wrong. There has never been a match where a dedicated logi was made superflous by equipment spammed around a supply depot. the point. It has flown over your head. Warpoint spam from uplinks and hives IS a benefit from logi suits. crap them out, swap suits, trash stays, warpoints free of effort or concern flow in. No risk, since you swapped back, you're in no danger of losing an expensive logistics fit. and since you can drop asstons of hives, why not make two fits? one to spam hives, another to cover 75% of your team's uplink limit by yourself, then swap to a useful suit and go kill people? THAT'S what I'm talking about when I say bypassing logi weaknesses. It's not tactical flexibility. it's farming. Your reflexes were too slow. All I said was equipment spam does not make dedicated logis superflous as you claimed. The entire scenario you bring up relies solely on control of the supply depot. You have proto forge guns, exactly what stopping you from popping that supply depot? The only one out of reach from ranged weapons in all of dust is the gallente research facillity, where this entire spam, lagfest, fiasco started. PC corps figured they could break the game doing it and here we are today. And even in there, without a dedicated logi keeping those heavies standing its extremely difficult to hold. You're a dedicated heavy, do you always ask for nanohive "trash", uplinks "spam" from logis that you don't bring in, pay for or invest SP into? I'm sure out of principle you walk from the redline rather than to spawn in on that garbage. I am equally sure you call in a lav and drive to nearest supply depot rather than touch a spammers nanohive. Be sure not to after this drops, make sure you don't help those guys farm WP. You make an incredible number of assumptions about how I play. Supply depots on the enemy team are beneath my notice except as a target. Lack of hives and uplinks has never decided whether I achieve an objective. That is determined by the fact that I'm relentless, not risk averse, and while I am dedicated heavy, I am not above swapping into another role as needed. Including swapping to logistics to help resupply. My favorite role is blowing up your tank. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 12547	Posted - 2014.12.02 05:41:00 - [545] - Quote Thanks everyone, this was quite a ride. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Kaze Eyrou Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1036	Posted - 2014.12.02 05:57:00 - [546] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks everyone, this was quite a ride. CB Vet // Logi Bro // @KazeEyrou CIO ("Proto Forum Warrior") Learning Coalition & RTG


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