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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 9 post(s) |
Dubya Guy
Abandoned Privilege Top Men.
19
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Posted - 2014.11.18 19:21:00 -
[1] - Quote
I have given my opinions elsewhere that switching roles should have a cost. This encourages preparation, planning, specialization, and team coordination. I know not everyone shares this opinion. I can appreciate that, and all I can say is I think it would make the game a bit more GÇ£cerebralGÇ¥ and enjoyable for me.
The evolving BW proposal has it that if you start out as a role that deploys equipment, and then switch to one that doesnGÇÖt, you lose some/all of that equipment. It has been argued that this will reduce role-switching. But largely this is a cost to the TEAM, not a cost to the individual, and in most cases, it will be an anonymous cost. If I switch out of logi gear for some sneaky knife-slaying, whoGÇÖs gonna know that my uplinks and hives disappeared because I made the switch versus being fluxed/expended? Am I going to spend the time to think back about WHICH hives and links are going to pop and whether those specific ones are too valuable for me to take a temporary detour into Anti-vehicle? The loss of a couple of pieces of equipment is a very small disincentive to role-switching, particularly when it is just as easy to switch right back and deploy them again.
I am actually a fan of carefully placed uplinks in hard-to-find or eliminate places. Having links that go pop when you switch suits on respawn or supply-depot-switch, reduces the value of this tactic.
Is equipment spamming a problem? I definitely think so. But I donGÇÖt think the suit-based shifting Bandwidth solution is the best solution because it also adds unreliability to a teamGÇÖs dropped equipment while not really discouraging role-switching.
But...It seems like the conversation has already evolved beyond GÇ£ifGÇ¥ to GÇ£how muchGÇ¥.
FPS = First Person Support. Kills win battles but it's kinda hard to kill if you're dead and out of ammo.
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Dubya Guy
Abandoned Privilege Top Men.
21
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Posted - 2014.11.19 17:24:00 -
[2] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:Fox Gaden wrote:
What was not made clear in the original post is that this change is intended to deal with multiple issues: 1)Decrease Equipment Spam 2)Discourage Role Switching. Increase the commitment to the role you spawn into. 3)Nerf Scouts who act as fast Logi. 4)Nerf Sentinels who try to get around their lack of an equipment slot. 5)Buff Caldari/Amarr Logi, provided they stick to their role.
I can see how it might be problematic in that sticking to roles ultimately requires people to be grouped and communicating to be an effective team. The fact that heavies don't have a slot has always suggested to me that they're meant to have logistics backup for full efficacy. That people don't always play as a team and vets can one-man-army using multiple roles is sort of a separate issue. The only real issue to me is that the role exclusion is ultimately a logi-specific thing here. Going from logi to blank - you're punished with equipment lost. Go from heavy to scout, scout to assault, etc. it doesn't matter because the only real role restriction is equipment-based.
I agree Zeylon Rho. If you want to buff Logi's, buff Logi's. If you want to discourage role-tourism, there are more straightforward ways that involve applying the "cost" to the player at the supply depot, rather than a "cost" to the team when some blueberry switches and randomly pops that well-placed uplink you thought your squad could use. There is little accountability in the role-switching aspect of this, and it really only encourages Logi's to persist and not other roles.
There are numerous threads about problems with the supply depot. I think adding a 30 second delay to suit switching at depots, or possibly even costing a clone, would be role-neutral, player-costing alternatives that don't require a whole new game mechanic.
Please, buff Logi's. But don't pretend this equipment-popping, bandwidth idea is a good way to address role-switching.
FPS = First Person Support. Kills win battles but it's kinda hard to kill if you're dead and out of ammo.
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Dubya Guy
Abandoned Privilege Top Men.
21
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Posted - 2014.11.19 17:47:00 -
[3] - Quote
lee corwood wrote:John Demonsbane wrote:
There's plenty of logi-buffing discussion in Cross' thread, this is a separate but related issue. This should be seen as a 'fix' to EQ spam, particularly by non-logis, not a specific nerf to scouts or the only or even primary means by which to buff logi's.
I agree. Keeping this thread on task for reducing EQ spam should be the center point. I've seen every suit/role imaginable spamming EQ and that's what we hope to stop. If I could team kill every bb I saw throwing down 12 nanohives around a supply depot...
My apologies. I had no intention of moving off task. I was only responding to Cross's pointer to this thread in the referenced Logi-buff thread, and him indicating they were intricately tied together.
Forget I said "Buff Logi's".
Forget I suggested this is an unfair solution to "role-switching".
Yes, it will limit equipment spam. Yea!! I think it carries a lot of baggage in order to do so. Boo!! I think there are better ways to limit equipment spam, but this thread is about this one idea which seems to be a done deal, so since I can't seem to get on board with it enough to debate the specific numbers, and discussing its overall shortcomings is off-task, I'll leave off.
FPS = First Person Support. Kills win battles but it's kinda hard to kill if you're dead and out of ammo.
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Dubya Guy
Abandoned Privilege Top Men.
21
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Posted - 2014.11.19 19:12:00 -
[4] - Quote
dreth longbow wrote:I did not read all the responses, so forgive me if this was talked about.
This may be and issue, but not as much as other stuff that should be fixed first. The list is to long for this area but you know what I mean.
OP why wast time and resources on this? It is not that big of a problem, it has its up and downs and yes the more noobs that come in cause the issues, but as past history has shown it resolves itself. Remember this went away and has just now come back as an irritant.
The proposal is flawed. Basically the op wants to punish those who use links/nano especially if the switch suits, but does not do the same for all other classes. Keeping the theme lets prevent those start with proto and then when the team is losing want to switch to basic from doing that or in other words prevent other classes from switching up or down in suits or even between clases like scout then logi then assualt.
No one wants that, but some want to limit what equipment I can run or how much I can drop? What about how many times I can call in a lav or tank?
Instead of the op's proposal their should be a more elegant solution or one that is not as restrictive.
1) teak software and pay more for band width and problem goes away (this has been discussed in great detail in the past and has the community support by CCP does not want to spend money on buying band width)
2) allow equipment to stay even when switch to other suit and allow oh say (3 eqpmnt slots x2 units each x2 different logi suits =) 12 combo's of links/nanos to be deployed and stay in game through switching suits.
3) do not allow drops to be put within x meters of another drop (average room size/4) 4) nano's should be 1/4 distance because fighters need to resupply
Just some thoughts
I like most of your thoughts, particularly #3. Unfortunately, John Demonsbane says that the Devs told him that it was not easy to do. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2438711#post2438711
I know, it seems like it could be combined with code from flux grenades, but...
Anyway this thread is not about alternatives to Equipment Bandwidth as a means to solve problems. It is about the specifics of Equipment Bandwidth. Equipment Bandwidth is going to happen. It has been determined to be an ingenious idea. We should stay on task and only talk about how much bandwidth different suits will get.
FPS = First Person Support. Kills win battles but it's kinda hard to kill if you're dead and out of ammo.
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Dubya Guy
Abandoned Privilege Top Men.
27
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Posted - 2014.11.20 17:30:00 -
[5] - Quote
Mister Goo wrote:After reading this thread I have determined 2 things.
1. Scouts think they should have the capability to do everything with the same suit SOLO. They are not OP and should not be forced to change how they play, everybody else should have to.
2. The players who truly play a logi are going to suffer from this, because the tourists who insist on vomiting equipment just for WP.
Equipment spam is the problem that BW is supposed to fix. I think BW is NOT the answer, there are much better ways to do this and the ideas in Cross's Logistics thread are the most solid I have seen. I know that there are no comments by a dev there, but I also know that you have been reading it.
It is very seldom when running with a squad that I need more than what my suit can put out at one time. But a player should not be punished for using multiple suits to change with the situation. The problem is not that one player uses multiple types of equipment it is that currently they are allowed to put large amounts of the same type of equipment in one place, mostly around supply depots. The fix to this is to put a non deployable radius around equipment of the same types. Granted one problem is repair hives with nano hives needing to be close for repair and resupply not a bad thing.
Uplinks are the exceptions if you want good fall back points you need to put out some well placed uplinks. Not 5 in a line out in the open on the way to the objectives. WP whores know what I am talking about.
There should not be any need to put hives anywhere near a supply depot. For that matter no equipment should be allowed within a determined radius of said depot. Drop links included, your better off putting them in a better location so your team can spawn in and retake the depot.
My last is RE Spam:
RE's are equipment, they are not grenades, as such they should not be resupplied by nano hives. It is a broken mechanic that you need to fix. RE's are a valuable resource that are overly abused, and the proposed BW is not going to fix them. RE frisbee throwers, yes I am pointing directly at you mister scout, only use one at a time. Throw, detonate, resupply, rinse and repeat until hive is extinguished. If you can not breach the area with 3 RE's then it is time to try another tactic, or use both your EQ slots for RE's and have six, but no cloak or hive.
^ This. All of this. Spot-on Goo. But too late. Bandwidth is going to happen. Devs don't put something out like this unless their going to do it. Am afraid all they will listen to is how to tweak the numbers on Bandwidth.
FPS = First Person Support. Kills win battles but it's kinda hard to kill if you're dead and out of ammo.
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Dubya Guy
Abandoned Privilege Top Men.
46
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Posted - 2014.11.26 19:00:00 -
[6] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:NextDark Knight wrote:
I just think this entire idea takes away freedom for a player so it can nicely fit into some predefined idea that some one else ahs on how the battles should unfold.
Unfortunately easily exploitive behavior eradication and overall game balance needs to take precedence. On the less objective note, I think the whole "Drop equipment and swap suits" Bypasses one of the wewaknesses of a non-logi suit and diminishes the value of said logistics in the field. I firmly believe that that kind of play hurts the dedicated logistics role more than it helps.
And a good way to discourage this is to apply a cost to swapping suits, particularly via supply depots:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2482098#post2482098
FPS = First Person Support. Kills win battles but it's kinda hard to kill if you're dead and out of ammo.
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Dubya Guy
Abandoned Privilege Top Men.
50
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Posted - 2014.12.01 18:57:00 -
[7] - Quote
Thank you CCP.
Thank you for all of the efforts recently to change and improve the game. As someone who is NOT a GÇ£closed beta vetGÇ¥, and therefore perhaps not as jaded as some others, I have to say I am impressed with the amount of effort being made to improve the game. Successful or not, you ARE trying.
Do I agree that Equipment Bandwidth was the best way to achieve your stated goals (5 bullets esp. fixing spam) from the original post? No. But thanks to some helpful comments by others early on I came to realize that different methods for obtaining those goals were never on the table via this thread. This thread was not for the purpose of debating alternatives, or even the relative merits of Equipment Bandwidth. That ship had already sailed (floated as early as Dec 2013)...and I missed it. Bandwidth was the (somehow) selected solution. This thread was always about tweaking the numbers for Bandwidth. Although I and others were resistant to accepting that reality , I have a greater understanding now for the process.
Thank you CCP Rattati for reading through all 25+ pages of angst and frustration to glean the few tidbits that actually addressed the point of your posting...to come up with numerical baselines for the Bandwidth project. I am sorry I was slow in realizing the place in this plan you were already at, and for contributing to the unhelpful and off-task portions of the thread.
Please keep making changes and do not be discouraged.
Sincerely, A dedicated, 100% of the time Logi, who has never had more than 2 active uplinks and 2 active hives on a map.
FPS = First Person Support. Kills win battles but it's kinda hard to kill if you're dead and out of ammo.
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