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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 9 post(s) |
Lonewolf Heavy
Chaotic Company
143
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Posted - 2014.11.18 19:15:00 -
[1] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Himiko Kuronaga wrote:HMG's kill at the appropriate rate inside of their cone of death, Aeon. You run into a heavy, you're supposed to die. Period. You nerf the HMG, and it will either change this situation or it won't. Changing the situation is unacceptable, because then the HMG fails in its role as a "Wrong time wrong place mother f***er" style of weapon.
If a person can run from an HMG, then the heavy has effectively lost the long-term fight. He can now be flanked and has no means of chasing the enemy. It is absolutely imperative the heavy has enough DPS to slaughter anyone who runs into him the first time it happens.
The HMG is the hard counter to impatient planning and stupidity. It is not the hard counter to high ground, cover, long range attacks, or mass driver shelling.
There is therefore no need to nerf it and doing so would destroy the heavy suit. And that's -exactly- the point. If a player can out-maneuver the heavy he's -supposed to die- and they have no problem with that because we ditched slower turn speeds (justifiably so) a long time ago. A Heavy can whip around just as fast as anyone else and they have enough defense to be able to react whilst getting shot at but not only that they can apply so much DPS that they can often kill the person shooting them before they go down. And yes, the HMG is a counter to mass driver shelling -because they receive a splash damage reduction-. Cover doesn't matter within optimal range because they just can hold down the trigger and walk over to you. Long range is about the only one that makes sense in that list but sentinels also have damage resistance bonuses so only a handful of weapons really apply there and it's entirely circumstantial. EVEN STILL, it's just the -one- heavy we're talking about, not a group. Let me ask you this; what is the ideal weapon a player is supposed to counter an HMG with in the short-to-mid range? Another HMG?
Shotguns, combat rifles, MDs (If you are brave or skilled), most ARs, PCs, any assault variant of a weapon, maybe even ScRs if you are against Cal sentinels. I can honestly keep going on that. Almost any weapon works against a sentinel in short-to-mid range. Short range is NOT the same as CQC however. CQC is specific to tight corridors and limited space.
in CQC you are highly limited. As a heavy, I've learned to avoid PCs, MDs, Shotguns, and Assault variants in CQC because I have no space to avoid the splash of the first 2 as well as the fact they have higher chance to hit me directly with the limited space (Which would be fatal for most heavies). As for shotguns and Assault variants (Including ARs), Those are weapons built for CQC and even though they may not always win the fight, they have a higher chance then basic variants.
Sentinel/Commando
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Lonewolf Heavy
Chaotic Company
143
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Posted - 2014.11.18 19:24:00 -
[2] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Cross Atu wrote:Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:
ps...I would like to see how this works with Logi suit / role updates that may be coming up. Bandwidth, equip slots, suit specs, and role/racial bonus all starts to connect in this discussion.
SOONtm  No, seriously I'm working on this actively right now (first day off in awhile) and hope to have something more meaningful in the near term. Taking into account both the eWar changes and the BW system has given me a bit to adapt too when collating current community feedback on the subject. Shame we don't have someone so adamant about Assaults and Commandos x3
It honestly shouldn't be a problem for commandos. Most commandos I see use handheld tools (e.g. Active scanners, repair tools, etc.) or only drop 1 or 2 different types of equipment. The only problem a commando will have is if they bounce between their Sentinels and Commandos (If they are dual Spec'ed like me). Personally, I won't have any problems with the BW because I don't really bounce much between my Commandos and Sentinels in a match. Most of the time I'll stay as either one or the other and the only equipment I deploy is limited to nanohives. Also seeing Commandos will have a decent BW and only have 1 equipment slot, as long as you aren't deploying higher level hives or uplinks on a basic commando you should be fine.
Can't really comment on assaults, I've never really gone in depth with one.
Sentinel/Commando
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Lonewolf Heavy
Chaotic Company
144
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Posted - 2014.11.18 19:39:00 -
[3] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:Cross Atu wrote:Fox Gaden wrote:Can the Sentinel be given the same band width as an Assault, even though the Sentinel does not have an equipment slot?
In Pub matches were no one is dropping Uplinks, I am sometimes forced to switch to another fit to place some uplinks. Once that is done I spawn in again in my preferred Sentinel fit after dying or finding a Supply Depot.
If the Sentinel has no bandwidth I will be stuck playing a suit that has bandwidth in these situations, because my team needs an uplink or they will be red-lined.
With respect Fox being suck playing a suit with bandwidth if you want to have equipment deployed at any given level is exactly the point. There has been a lot of talk about a nerf to heavies, hmgs, or both, because of "heavy spam". However it is the current game and map meta not the class balance which feeds this proliferation of heavies. The Sentinel frame has zero equipment slots using depot/spawn swap as is currently possible gets around one of the fundamental drawbacks built into the frame and adds to the excessive proliferation of Sentinels on the field because if you can provide your own deployable support, gain scout level eWar from a friendly scout on the field, and use a LAV or DS for mobility the question effectively becomes why not use a Sentinel?The context which creates that last question needs addressed both for diversity of game play and for the preservation of the Sentinel role itself. 0.02 ISK Cross Meaning in a public match where no one is placing Drop Uplinks I canGÇÖt in good contentious play a Sentinel. Are you going to take away my ability to hack objectives next?
Don't go jumping the gun now Fox. Cross has a point on that exploit. I see this happening all the time in a battle, especially when I'm in my commando hunting logis so my buddy can go hunting in his scout safely. I'll start firing on the logi and they will drop hives behind a depot where they change to a heavy fit while still taking full advantage of their hives.
All of the other things Cross is mentioning, like taking advantage of scout ewar thanks to friendlies and using vehicles for mobility, are intended features. However, being able to change suits and deploy equipment then change back into a heavy is an exploit to bypass the sentinel's weakness of having no equipment.
Sentinel/Commando
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Lonewolf Heavy
Chaotic Company
144
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Posted - 2014.11.18 19:48:00 -
[4] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Cross Atu wrote:Fox Gaden wrote:Can the Sentinel be given the same band width as an Assault, even though the Sentinel does not have an equipment slot?
In Pub matches were no one is dropping Uplinks, I am sometimes forced to switch to another fit to place some uplinks. Once that is done I spawn in again in my preferred Sentinel fit after dying or finding a Supply Depot.
If the Sentinel has no bandwidth I will be stuck playing a suit that has bandwidth in these situations, because my team needs an uplink or they will be red-lined.
With respect Fox being suck playing a suit with bandwidth if you want to have equipment deployed at any given level is exactly the point. There has been a lot of talk about a nerf to heavies, hmgs, or both, because of "heavy spam". However it is the current game and map meta not the class balance which feeds this proliferation of heavies. The Sentinel frame has zero equipment slots using depot/spawn swap as is currently possible gets around one of the fundamental drawbacks built into the frame and adds to the excessive proliferation of Sentinels on the field because if you can provide your own deployable support, gain scout level eWar from a friendly scout on the field, and use a LAV or DS for mobility the question effectively becomes why not use a Sentinel?The context which creates that last question needs addressed both for diversity of game play and for the preservation of the Sentinel role itself. 0.02 ISK Cross On the contrary, Heavy proliferation started when they got an inadvertent buff in 1.8 when all weapons -besides- HMGs received a 10% damage nerf and Proficiency was changed. The HMG had a really good balance in 1.7 due to the implementation of proper spread and increased rate-of-fire (which sky rocketed it's DPS) but that balance was upset when it's DPS was left alone by comparison of it's competition. Scouts as well are remarkable counters toward Heavy spam because of their low profile and incredibly high alpha damage between Shotguns and Nova Knives. This, bearing in mind that shotguns haven't changed much, Scouts did. If HMGs received a DPS nerf to compensate for what the rest of us are dealing with, I think it'd establish a good balance. More-so then heat mitigation gameplay ever will. Talking 5%, 10% at most. It's not something we couldn't undo if it wound up being problematic either but experimenting with heat mitigation every hotfix clearly isn't warranting enough of an impact. Again, as previously stated elsewhere, the problem isn't so much the one heavy as ten heavies stacking on top of one another. That is something heat mitigation will never fix. In the run-up to 1.8 I stated that the HMG should get the same damage nerf that the other Automatic weapons got. I had forgotten about that, but having been reminded of the 1.8 automatic weapon nerfs, I totally agree that an equivalent small DPS nerf to the HMG is warranted. I still think the heat changes are a good thing. The Assault role should be easy, with bonuses that make the Infantry Rifles easier to use. Every other role, including HMG sentinel, should require some player skill to master.
I personally am nervous about another HMG damage nerf. Since closed beta I have seen the HMG go through so many changes, and I remember when the HMG went from being OP with sharpshooter allowing you to fire halfway across a map, to day one of uprising when we were nerfed so hard I almost gave up on being a heavy. A dev said something about wanting to avoid damage changes to the HMG to keep it as intended, which was why they did the Heat buildup change, to force more players to have more skill to use the HMG.
Sentinel/Commando
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