Kinda fed up with all this "Go Proto or Go Home" nonsense. Rattati, since the hotfixes have started when you crippled the Cloak field into 0/5/10% dampening progression but kept that 10% a necessary aspect for 3 of the 4 scouts to participate in stealth, have only continuously moved the divide between new players and Vets. This bandwidth is nonsense really only drives that home.

Kinda fed up with all this "Go Proto or Go Home" nonsense. Rattati, since the hotfixes have started when you crippled the Cloak field into 0/5/10% dampening progression but kept that 10% a necessary aspect for 3 of the 4 scouts to participate in stealth, have only continuously moved the divide between new players and Vets. This bandwidth is nonsense really only drives that home.

Dear Players

Based on a lot of feedback, both from CPM, Community and previous CCP designs, one of the things we are able to conjure up is the much wanted Equipment Bandwidth feature.

* We want to fix Equipment spam to increase framerate
* We want Quality over Quantity Equipment gameplay
* We want a solid Logistics progression at using Equipment
* We want Logistics to excel at using Equipment, and other roles less so
* We want Equipment diversity

Now, we want to get your feedback as early as possible, so chime in. But here are some clarifications of intent.

Equipment Limit
The main design is primarily based off of Drones in EVE.

Every dropsuit has a built-in Equipment Controller, which has a certain Bandwidth Capacity (in MHz). That Controller Bandwidth is used to manage deployed Equipment through constant signaling.

Each piece of deployed Equipment has a different Bandwidth Cost (or Usage). Note that all Equipment still has the same current limitations of GÇPdeployed per typeGÇ£.

Obviously Logistics are made for this purpose, and some Logistics more than others.

In the case of deployed Equipment Bandwidth exceeding the Players current Bandwidth, deployed Equipment self-destructs instantly, in the sequence it was deployed. In the attached spreadsheet, we show an example of such a scenario.

This feature will allow proper Logistics to excel at their deployment role, while keeping Assaults & Commandos relatively useful and Scouts will be diminished in capability as they were never meant to be a king of deployables, the additional slot was added for the Cloak Field.

Quality over Quantity
We want players to use the best Equipment they have at their disposal. ThatGÇÖs why Bandwidth will not increase with item tiers. We also have the capability and intent to reduce Scan Profile with tiers, so Advanced and Complex gear is not as easy to scan. However, this also allows us to increase the carried amount, for rapid redeployment. Spawn first Nanohive and Drop Uplink at point A, redeploy to Objective B, spawn second Nanohive and Drop Uplink, and so on. Stay out of trouble and you wonGÇÖt need to switch or restock for quite some time.

Progression
Logistics will have the, by far, the highest Bandwidth, with Caldari and Amarr the highest. We may need to reword or change some of their role bonuses. Bandwith progression will follow the Equipment slot progression so a Logistics player can almost always use their full allotment of deployable Equipment.

Logistics vs other Dropsuits
One of the key aspects of this proposal is that all Equipment is tied to the active Dropsuit of the Player. Switch from a suit with a high Bandwidth to another suit with lower Bandwidth, and the signal is lost. This means that starting as a Logistics dropsuit, throw down as much cheap Equipment as possible, then switch into another Logistics dropsuit at a Supply Depot, repeat and then finally switch into another role, Sentinel, Scout, Assault or Commando, will not be possible anymore.

Diversity
We can now influence players to use more Proximity Mines for example, as Scan Profile will allow them to be hidden from low Precision Vehicle Players, as well as having a lower Bandwidth Cost, allowing more at the same time, without allowing more Uplinks and Nanohives. Extra damage wouldnGÇÖt hurt either.

Now, to the numbers found in this spreadsheet. Please remember that these numbers are placeholders, and are definitely up for debate so form your arguments for changes into clear and concise statements.

Please read the Example as well, it should explain the whole design clearly.

Again, your feedback and input is appreciated.

Personally I think bandwidth should be set based on dropsuit class, not based upon tier.

Make them all capable of running the same number of deployables.

Just make it so each stack of deployables they carry can fill that BW. So if you carry three types of hives, one STD, ADV and PRO make it so you can drop enough to eat the BW. So you can carry boat tons of crappy fire and forget trash that won't last long... or you can carry a few quality pieces.

But if you throw all of your STD hives you're using all of the bandwidth till they pop.

Tiering is fine for modules and weapons. It allows player who have crappy skills to have options.

But tiering dropsuits has always caused more problems than it solved.

That is one way to exploit BW system, those 8 uplinks mean a lot on public matches, especially if they are placed on rooftops. Bigger thing that consort me is that player may come back to base to switch Logistics suit to one that have just bpo weapon(to lower his loses in case shot-off) and stay for entire match in vehicle - HAV, ADS or any other - players doing so will perform more roles then they should, and because of it I think that vehicle BW need to be included in this changes; player BW need drop at least to 4 when they enter any vehicle to finely end with rooftops-uplink-spam nonsense.

When this changes will be deploy players will be able to deploy 8 of 9 uplinks with something like this:

Logistics mk.0(660HP)

- Combat Rifle
- Flux Grenade

- Vizam Gauged Drop Uplink
- Vizam Flux Drop Uplink
- Vizam Quantum Drop Uplink
- Vizam Stable Drop Uplink

- 3x Complex Shield Extender
- Complex Shield Energizer
- Complex Armor Plate
- Enhanced CPU Upgrade
- 2x Complex Profile Dampener

Then switch to Amarr Logistics(because of sidearm and extra BW) that instead of Uplinks have Repair Tool, Active Scanner and good quality nano with he will be able to drop because of extra bandwidth.

That is one way to exploit BW system, those 8 uplinks mean a lot on public matches, especially if they are placed on rooftops. Bigger thing that consort me is that player may come back to base to switch Logistics suit to one that have just bpo weapon(to lower his loses in case shot-off) and stay for entire match in vehicle - HAV, ADS or any other - players doing so will perform more roles then they should, and because of it I think that vehicle BW need to be included in this changes; player BW need drop at least to 4 when they enter any vehicle to finely end with rooftops-uplink-spam nonsense.

First:
Scouts are for CQC AV.
Assault/Commando only get close enough to toss an AV grenade.
Logi don't usually put RE on thanks. They do AV with Proxies & Remote traps on the road.
Sentinels are for long range AV.

Second:
In WWII many people soloed Tanks. They would dig a shallow trench narrower than the tank tread and lay in it holding a magnetic tank mine on their chest. When the tank rolled over them they would reach up and place the mine on the belly of the tank. Then the guy would have to prey the tank kept going as you don't want to be under a tank mine when it blows up.

Third:
It is not so much that no tank should be solo-able, as no tank should be solo-able with only one weapon. To solo a Tank a Scout has to use Remote Explosives, AV Grenades, and a Swarm Launcher or Plasma Cannon. Without the Remote Explosives there chances of getting a kill without help are very low.

Keep in mind that to use Remote Explosives a Scout has to get close enough to the Tank to risk getting run over, or squished against a wall.

I like the idea of cutting down equipment spam and buffing the logi role of equipment but BW seems necessarily complicated. Lots of coding for all equipment and each suit. Lots for players to keep track of.

A simpler system:
Calculate the max number of deployables per player in a match allowable while keeping performance. Take that average and set a hard cap per player (or suit type). [example] If the average is 3 you could allow 1 for heavies, 4 for logis and 2 for all other suits. If you want to keep 4 pieces of equipment on the map you stay as a logi. If you switch to a heavy you lose all but one piece of equipment on the field.

REs and proxies might require a separate counter?

We all know something needs to be done about spam, however the BW idea is bad.

Lets say as a logi I drop triage hives, uplinks, and PEs all in perfect spots.

In the new meta when I die I can help the team much more by being afk in the redline

than going to another role and having all that work disappear. The BW idea encourages afking.


Now to my idea.

have a 40 meter "red zone" around supply depots where equipment may

not be dropped. I am positive this will get rid of nearly 90% of spam.

Simple and effective!


On a sidenote I believe the lag is somehow caused by the pulsing of lots of uplinks/nanos.

This is effectively the same as the bandwidth change. Honestly they had this exact same issue in EVE with drones that were deployed from ships. They were causing so much lag that the servers would crash. So they came up with a bandwidth nerf that worked. They are only applying the same fix to this game and I have to say that I agree with it, but only if they fix the respawning causing stuff to disappear issue first.

One suggestion to avoid a catastrophic, potentially game-breaking equipment nerf: don't destroy equipment whenever bandwidth is too low; merely deacivate it, then allow it to reactivate if/when bandwidth is restored.

SO, new idea.

I am already a declared fan of Cross' proposed equipment revamp, the one Shayz is talking about, I see it reinforcing Logistics (rightfully) as THE equipment use role and while it will have some adverse effects on certain playstyles it doesn't outright nullify others the way BW does.

I am against BW in its entirety, because at it's core it address SPAM (very worthwhile endeavour) but as a collateral cost it also completely eliminates certain Combat Logistics gameplay (which I oppose).


SO, since SPAM is the problem AND evidently switching usage of a Logi suit is the method, why not institute some code that tracks the SPAMming actions themselves and once the algorithm recognizes the spammer it a) kicks their ass out of the match completely b) insta-pops ALL equipment they've deployed c) deducts fully from their wallet all associated suit and fitting costs including the frame they were attampting to switch into and d) ALSO calculates up to that point in the match how many SP they would have received and deducts it from their current available SP pool! If their current available is 0 or less than what they would have gotten then they go negative until they generate proper WP to balance the deficit.


SO, we already know CCP is more than capable to track player action vs. game result (FW friendlyfire negative points, vehicle driving and acceleration cues moving vehicles around etc.) and script appropriate reponses for the cues.
Script a piece of code that when it sees [drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-SWITCH OR SUICIDE-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-SWITCH] all in one particular area it frikin' kicks that ass to the curb and leaves a nice fat CCP bootprint on it.

CCP Glinda, now that she's no longer in denial about equipment spamming and the inherent lag it produces, can track and calculate roughly how much equipment it takes, set a worthwhile time limit to the "drop drop drop" element and quantify the algorithm/coding so it can't be broken by [drop-drop-drop-drop-(x action, say squatting down or firing a weapon)-SWITCH-drop-drop...] but still allows for active LOGISTICS which can be very much drop-drop-drop sometimes.

Playtesting would be required. Analytics on existing and predicted Logistics use play metrics would be required. Coding would be required. BUT, this is the **** being done anyway to institute BW already and if composed correctly PENALIZES SPAMMERS without victimizing gameplayers.

I'm all for growth, balancing and improvement and neccessary changes, especially those that cut down or eliminate exploitation. I'm not for the monthly Calvin and Hobbes comicstrip "New Rule!" method of addressing issues.



btw, I am at work again (if I'm going to spend time doing game design, I'm getting paid dude) so if it takes me a bit to respond to responses that's what's up.

*douses self in gasoline*
Flame On!

CCP Rattati what about proximity mines? if I throw them out (lets say 10 total-3 basic, 3 adv, 4 proto) and change off my logi to an Minnie assault to protect an objective near my prox mines.. what happens to them?

Several things seem to be important to think of right now.

Why do dedicated support player like myself switch suits after they deployed equipment?

My reason for that is simple. After Tank 514 hit us hard, I was fed up with OP Vehicles and skilled into AV stuff. First it was just remotes/proxies, later when the MinCommando came out I skilled that to 5 instantly and swarms to 5 as well (P5 now).
I switch regularly to my minmando just to support my team, since tanks and DS on rampage hurt my team a lot.

*snip*

Third why are Logis running Scouts instead of a logi?
This is very simple to explain, it's also for team support. If you run a logi, you are worth ****, since if you make a support suit, you have no health to survive a single shotgun blast. So since a smart scout will allways go for the logi first, you die a lot.
This however is no fun at all (and a liability in PC), and I can understand every Logi that puts a Amarr scout with lots of Scans and hp on to prevent his squad from being backstabbed.

PT2



Verdict
These changes will do nothing but punishing Logi players who adapt to the battlefield. Spammers will spam as much as before.

The proposed Orbital changes will have a much greater impact on spam, since you have to spread the equipment for that it's not popped wit a single EMP OB. But when you have to spread it, it's more work and not as attractive.
I urge you Rattati, wait with these (BW) changes, until we see what happens with those new tools, try to code simple stuff like no hives in the resupply radius of a supply depot. It can't be, that implementation of something simple as this is more complicated then the mess you are about to dump on us!

Take the time to rethink the whole thing. A simpler solution, like a hardcap of Active and inactive equipment per class, would be much simpler and more easy to understand for newer players.

Last (and this is very IMPORTANT):

Make deployed equipment disappear from the assets of the player. Meaning, if you spam equipment you have to pay in isk.
Right now, it is basically absolutely free. If you switch back to a different suit you will not loose those hives and links. This is wrong. Everything deployed should be paid for by the person who put's it down, since you will be paid back in wp/isk! If you go back to a supply to restock your hives, one of each should be taken from your assets!!!

THIS CHANGE WOULD HURT MOSTLY THE SPAMMERS

It wouldn't hurt dedicated support logis, since they often enough pay with their suits when they intentionally suicide to get back with more gear.

Also Logis that run with their squads, usually try to keep their stuff on the suit, until it's needed.

This needs to go in line with slightly more WP for higher tiers of equipment. Otherwise everybody would just spam cheaper stuff...

Oh and don't nerf the suit's ability to carry equipment, just introduce a team quota on equipment like vehicles.

My solution is just one of many that are presented by people, who spend waaay more time on the forums than I. CCP should really do some investigation and talk to a variaty of players before they try to fix a problem that should not be fixed before other issues and once they have a ranked list of issues then seek solutions from the members for the best fix vs developments fix which is usually wrong.

I am not trashing CCP for they have done some good things lately, it just seams they are out of contact with the player base and listen to a few forum warriors that don't represent the player base.

They all go away except for the ones that you new suit (the assault) can handle. Your example is exactly the type of spamming that they are trying to remove from the game.