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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 9 post(s)
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 475	Posted - 2014.12.01 14:20:00 - [511] - Quote Regarding changing suits killin eq., my opinion is already clear, but BW is happening whether I or anyone else likes it or not. Being the selfish guy I am, I can give feed back based on the suits/fits i run the most regarding equipment, the Caldari and Amarr adv logi. Amarr Logi: Bandwidth 28 - Vizaim Flux uplink 2 x 4= 8 BW: - Viziam Stable uplink 2 x 4= 8 BW: - BDR-8 rep tool 0 BW Total: 16 BW 12 BW to spare. Caldari Logi: 28BW - K2 nano hive 2x4=8 BW: - Allotek 2x4=8 BW - Wyrikomi nanite injector 0 BW Total: 16bw, 12 BW to spare If I change out to an assault i still keep 3 links or hives active. If I change to an Commando i keep 3 links or hives active If I change to a scout: I keep 2 links or hives active Heavy gets nothing. Basically drop the least valuable links first, and then the good ones might stick around in your other suits as long as you dont need more ammo. My assault suits generally carries scanners so i wont be affected too much. Swarm commandos still get to camp rooftops. (deploy two proto links, respawn with 1 proto hive) Logis can still swtich to any suit EXCEPT a heavy and still keep most of thier deployed equipment. Heavies are going to be even more dependent on their logi brothers. All in all, on paper it actualy looks okay. Also, +1 on vehicle scans going up in scan precision per tier. Also a big - 90000 to the merc who suggested reptools and scanners should cost bandwidth. I'll give Ratatti credit on killing that proposal dead. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 9248	Posted - 2014.12.01 14:56:00 - [512] - Quote I'm still very confused why dedicated logis would be upset with this. Especially changing suits. Isn't changing suits to say a sentinel a fair trade off to having all your deployed equipment on the field? Why is it that players think there should be no trade off? And if there isn't, like it is now, that just opens the door to anyone with a lot of skill points to skill into logis simply to spam equipment then switch. So you have all these non logi players doing the role of a logi, whereas with this change only the dedicated logis get to logi. You'd think people would be happy about that, except the people who abused the no trade off system. Also being a dedicated logi doesn't mean baby sitting a sentinel. Last I checked not fitting a repair tool doesn't make the fit invalid. Amarr are the good guys Join "PIE Ground Control" for secure Amarr FW syncing and orbital support
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1340	Posted - 2014.12.01 15:34:00 - [513] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Dear community We have painstakingly gone through the 25 pages, collected feedback and adjusted the proposal, Cross and the rest of the CPM have also reviewed and given their feedback. Please find the updated numbers here and note that almost every unique comment is addressed on the right hand side: Final Proposal Please give your feedback, clear and concise. Thanks! Dear Rattati, as a long time Logi player (not so much since survivability is down the drain), I do not approve these changes. 1. You make it much harder to be effective as a logi without running proto. 2. You make it impossible for a logi to adapt to the situation by changing Roles, this is a major nerf to game fun for strategic gameplay. (Not all logis prefer to run leashing a heavy) 3. You still leave the possibility to spam equipment for the rest of the roles. 4. You do not adress more important stuff like the possibility to drop EQ around supply depots, which shouldn't be possible in the first place. 5. You do not adress the isk cost of Equipment, meaning why can anybody resupply EQ at a supply depot without ISK cost? Charging ISK for EQ/Suit change at Depot would solve more problems than this mediocre change to EQ... I will play logi even less, since it would just be a waste of game time and a liability to the team. Commandos and Assaults will do the logying from now! If you introduce this crap without any buff to the survivability to the logi, it won't be worth to run the class anymore. Cheers And yet there are threads dedicated to addressing the logistics survivability issues in a clear and constructive manner with proposals in play. You really think cross would have bothered wasting the effort if Rattati had said "LOLno logis are fine?" Breakin, Cross and IWS both confirmed that this change was likely to go in without any further upgrades or reworks to the logi suits for a while. They did say the logi update was definetly still on the radar though which is good but very concerning. BLUF: I do not feel that this change is on solid foundation without updates to the class most effected by it. You'll also notice in the spread sheet the number of "yes, later" answers on some of the communities concerns...this feels like how CCP used to do things with the "lets get it out there and see what happens" mentality. When this comes out it needs to be close to spot on...it's too big a potential negative shift if it's not. So if I hadn't gone through 25 pages, picked every noticeable morsel of feedback, considered and commented specially on each one, then that would have been better? Not sure where you are coming from on this. My point is that I think you've done an outstanding job of cataloging many of the player concerns and there seems to be some areas that could continue to be matured a little longer. I never indicated that it wasn't a good thing the way you captured and adjusted your BW concept based on some players feedback. It definitetly better than the original. Still not a fan of it per se but that ship has sailed and I want to focus on making it as good of a mechanic as possible. My bigger concern is the BW changes being done in isolation from adjustments to the Logisitcs class that seriously needs a refresh. Would you be willing to implement the logi refresh in conjunction with implementing the BW mechanic? "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Terry Webber Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 512	Posted - 2014.12.01 15:34:00 - [514] - Quote As a logi that doesn't usually carry uplinks or deploy nanohives, I don't think this change will affect me. I usually use a scanner or a reptool.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 12515	Posted - 2014.12.01 15:42:00 - [515] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Dear community We have painstakingly gone through the 25 pages, collected feedback and adjusted the proposal, Cross and the rest of the CPM have also reviewed and given their feedback. Please find the updated numbers here and note that almost every unique comment is addressed on the right hand side: Final Proposal Please give your feedback, clear and concise. Thanks! Dear Rattati, as a long time Logi player (not so much since survivability is down the drain), I do not approve these changes. 1. You make it much harder to be effective as a logi without running proto. 2. You make it impossible for a logi to adapt to the situation by changing Roles, this is a major nerf to game fun for strategic gameplay. (Not all logis prefer to run leashing a heavy) 3. You still leave the possibility to spam equipment for the rest of the roles. 4. You do not adress more important stuff like the possibility to drop EQ around supply depots, which shouldn't be possible in the first place. 5. You do not adress the isk cost of Equipment, meaning why can anybody resupply EQ at a supply depot without ISK cost? Charging ISK for EQ/Suit change at Depot would solve more problems than this mediocre change to EQ... I will play logi even less, since it would just be a waste of game time and a liability to the team. Commandos and Assaults will do the logying from now! If you introduce this crap without any buff to the survivability to the logi, it won't be worth to run the class anymore. Cheers And yet there are threads dedicated to addressing the logistics survivability issues in a clear and constructive manner with proposals in play. You really think cross would have bothered wasting the effort if Rattati had said "LOLno logis are fine?" Breakin, Cross and IWS both confirmed that this change was likely to go in without any further upgrades or reworks to the logi suits for a while. They did say the logi update was definetly still on the radar though which is good but very concerning. BLUF: I do not feel that this change is on solid foundation without updates to the class most effected by it. You'll also notice in the spread sheet the number of "yes, later" answers on some of the communities concerns...this feels like how CCP used to do things with the "lets get it out there and see what happens" mentality. When this comes out it needs to be close to spot on...it's too big a potential negative shift if it's not. So if I hadn't gone through 25 pages, picked every noticeable morsel of feedback, considered and commented specially on each one, then that would have been better? Not sure where you are coming from on this. My point is that I think you've done an outstanding job of cataloging many of the player concerns and there seems to be some areas that could continue to be matured a little longer. I never indicated that it wasn't a good thing the way you captured and adjusted your BW concept based on some players feedback. It definitetly better than the original. Still not a fan of it per se but that ship has sailed and I want to focus on making it as good of a mechanic as possible. My bigger concern are the BW changes being done in isolation from adjustments to the Logisitcs class that seriously needs a refresh. Would you be willing to implement the logi refresh in conjunction with implementing the BW mechanic? "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 366	Posted - 2014.12.01 15:45:00 - [516] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Dear community We have painstakingly gone through the 25 pages, collected feedback and adjusted the proposal, Cross and the rest of the CPM have also reviewed and given their feedback. Please find the updated numbers here and note that almost every unique comment is addressed on the right hand side: Final Proposal Please give your feedback, clear and concise. Thanks! Dear Rattati, as a long time Logi player (not so much since survivability is down the drain), I do not approve these changes. 1. You make it much harder to be effective as a logi without running proto. 2. You make it impossible for a logi to adapt to the situation by changing Roles, this is a major nerf to game fun for strategic gameplay. (Not all logis prefer to run leashing a heavy) 3. You still leave the possibility to spam equipment for the rest of the roles. 4. You do not adress more important stuff like the possibility to drop EQ around supply depots, which shouldn't be possible in the first place. 5. You do not adress the isk cost of Equipment, meaning why can anybody resupply EQ at a supply depot without ISK cost? Charging ISK for EQ/Suit change at Depot would solve more problems than this mediocre change to EQ... I will play logi even less, since it would just be a waste of game time and a liability to the team. Commandos and Assaults will do the logying from now! If you introduce this crap without any buff to the survivability to the logi, it won't be worth to run the class anymore. Cheers And yet there are threads dedicated to addressing the logistics survivability issues in a clear and constructive manner with proposals in play. You really think cross would have bothered wasting the effort if Rattati had said "LOLno logis are fine?" Breakin, Cross and IWS both confirmed that this change was likely to go in without any further upgrades or reworks to the logi suits for a while. They did say the logi update was definetly still on the radar though which is good but very concerning. BLUF: I do not feel that this change is on solid foundation without updates to the class most effected by it. You'll also notice in the spread sheet the number of "yes, later" answers on some of the communities concerns...this feels like how CCP used to do things with the "lets get it out there and see what happens" mentality. When this comes out it needs to be close to spot on...it's too big a potential negative shift if it's not. So if I hadn't gone through 25 pages, picked every noticeable morsel of feedback, considered and commented specially on each one, then that would have been better? Hey Rattati, just to be clear. I appreciate all your hard work so far on improving the dust experience. But seriously, this change will punish all players who have skilled into logi without regarding themselves as Pure logis (i.e. never using other frames). I could live with those changes, if EQ below BW would not be DESTROYED but DEACTIVATED, until a suit with enough BW is spawned again. This would allow Logis to change into another role without sacrificing all the strategic work he did before. This is very important for every player who places EQ strategically instead of just at the nearest supply depot! That all ASSault players and lol scouts ignore this fact is part of the "He's a logi, so he better bring our stuff and get out of the way!" attitude of the general populae in DUST. So the only ones dependent on Logis will be heavies... and even they will be fine if the stuff get's dropped by assaults instead... I think if you keep the changes, at least make all repping EQ (hives and repper) Logi only. So that not everybody and his mom can do the stuff the logis are supposed to do. Cheers Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 13477	Posted - 2014.12.01 15:54:00 - [517] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: Hey Rattati, just to be clear. I appreciate all your hard work so far on improving the dust experience. But seriously, this change will punish all players who have skilled into logi without regarding themselves as Pure logis (i.e. never using other frames). I could live with those changes, if EQ below BW would not be DESTROYED but DEACTIVATED, until a suit with enough BW is spawned again. This would allow Logis to change into another role without sacrificing all the strategic work he did before. This is very important for every player who places EQ strategically instead of just at the nearest supply depot! That all ASSault players and lol scouts ignore this fact is part of the "He's a logi, so he better bring our stuff and get out of the way!" attitude of the general populae in DUST. So the only ones dependent on Logis will be heavies... and even they will be fine if the stuff get's dropped by assaults instead... I think if you keep the changes, at least make all repping EQ (hives and repper) Logi only. So that not everybody and his mom can do the stuff the logis are supposed to do. Cheers So, do you also expect an Assault to keep the two light weapons when he switches from a Commando? Or maybe the HMG when he switches from a Sentinel? Hmm, why not the cloak too when switching from the Scout? Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5567	Posted - 2014.12.01 15:54:00 - [518] - Quote It will reinforce each suit having advantages and disadvantages. Players bypass logi weaknesses by changing suits while enjoying the benefit of equipment spam. It makes dedicated logis utterly unnecessary and largely superfluous. This needs to change. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1341	Posted - 2014.12.01 16:16:00 - [519] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: You'll also notice in the spread sheet the number of "yes, later" answers on some of the communities concerns...this feels like how CCP used to do things with the "lets get it out there and see what happens" mentality. So if I hadn't gone through 25 pages, picked every noticeable morsel of feedback, considered and commented specially on each one, then that would have been better? Not sure where you are coming from on this. I'll admit it, I felt this was unfair criticism, the "Yes, later" referred to mostly tangential extra designs, but anyway. Cross, our resident CPM Logi was more than happy to play the wait and see card, especially since Logis may have a new role with EWAR changes. I also believe that everyone got a fair chance and this proposal has overwhelming support, from what we can see. Apologies if I wasn't clear with the "yes, later" post. I know that you are looking for additional feedback to the spreadsheet and as noted elsewhere I appreciate the chance to provide feedback. Reference Cross advocating to hold off on updating support roles....he is a friend and i often run with him, however, he is not nearly the total of the logi community. I susepct if you asked the logi community would they rather have their suit updated now and incremented on later or wait for down the road changes after two potentially huge shifts (BW & EWAR) go into place I think they would like refreshed suits / roles with tweaks based on BW & EWAR. My frustration is that there is no path or objective we see you driving at with roles/classes/ect. I suspect you have that pathway and probably have shared it with some of the CPM. The rest of the player community can only react to individual pieces in isolation and speculate at best on the synchronicity or connectivity to both announced much less unknown goals. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 366	Posted - 2014.12.01 16:16:00 - [520] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: Hey Rattati, just to be clear. I appreciate all your hard work so far on improving the dust experience. But seriously, this change will punish all players who have skilled into logi without regarding themselves as Pure logis (i.e. never using other frames). I could live with those changes, if EQ below BW would not be DESTROYED but DEACTIVATED, until a suit with enough BW is spawned again. This would allow Logis to change into another role without sacrificing all the strategic work he did before. This is very important for every player who places EQ strategically instead of just at the nearest supply depot! That all ASSault players and lol scouts ignore this fact is part of the "He's a logi, so he better bring our stuff and get out of the way!" attitude of the general populae in DUST. So the only ones dependent on Logis will be heavies... and even they will be fine if the stuff get's dropped by assaults instead... I think if you keep the changes, at least make all repping EQ (hives and repper) Logi only. So that not everybody and his mom can do the stuff the logis are supposed to do. Cheers So, do you also expect an Assault to keep the two light weapons when he switches from a Commando? Or maybe the HMG when he switches from a Sentinel? Hmm, why not the cloak too when switching from the Scout? No I don't, but I also do not expect that all kills you did with that HMG get taken from the board. Fact is, that if you play a logi as battlefield manager (deploying links in strategic positions which can take quite some time on certain maps) your effort gets taken away by one suit change into another class. If the Uplinks would be just DEACTIVATED instead of DESTROYED, I would have the possibility to go back to said logi suits and not have my work from the start of the game wasted. I agree that you should not change suits roles without cost, but so far the only ones who lose earlier efforts, are the logis. Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...

Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 366	Posted - 2014.12.01 16:19:00 - [521] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: It will reinforce each suit having advantages and disadvantages. Players bypass logi weaknesses by changing suits while enjoying the benefit of equipment spam. It makes dedicated logis utterly unnecessary and largely superfluous. This needs to change. Dedicated logis will still be pathetically weak. The result will probs be the following, deploy EQ suit, put stuff down, change to slayer logi with basic stuff on as backup... Well if that's what everybody wants, great MISSION ACCOMPLISHED Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5568	Posted - 2014.12.01 16:20:00 - [522] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: Hey Rattati, just to be clear. I appreciate all your hard work so far on improving the dust experience. But seriously, this change will punish all players who have skilled into logi without regarding themselves as Pure logis (i.e. never using other frames). I could live with those changes, if EQ below BW would not be DESTROYED but DEACTIVATED, until a suit with enough BW is spawned again. This would allow Logis to change into another role without sacrificing all the strategic work he did before. This is very important for every player who places EQ strategically instead of just at the nearest supply depot! That all ASSault players and lol scouts ignore this fact is part of the "He's a logi, so he better bring our stuff and get out of the way!" attitude of the general populae in DUST. So the only ones dependent on Logis will be heavies... and even they will be fine if the stuff get's dropped by assaults instead... I think if you keep the changes, at least make all repping EQ (hives and repper) Logi only. So that not everybody and his mom can do the stuff the logis are supposed to do. Cheers So, do you also expect an Assault to keep the two light weapons when he switches from a Commando? Or maybe the HMG when he switches from a Sentinel? Hmm, why not the cloak too when switching from the Scout? No I don't, but I also do not expect that all kills you did with that HMG get taken from the board. Fact is, that if you play a logi as battlefield manager (deploying links in strategic positions which can take quite some time on certain maps) your effort gets taken away by one suit change into another class. If the Uplinks would be just DEACTIVATED instead of DESTROYED, I would have the possibility to go back to said logi suits and not have my work from the start of the game wasted. I agree that you should not change suits roles without cost, but so far the only ones who lose earlier efforts, are the logis. Fine, if I kill you, you should have to respawn in a different match. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 12519	Posted - 2014.12.01 16:20:00 - [523] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: You'll also notice in the spread sheet the number of "yes, later" answers on some of the communities concerns...this feels like how CCP used to do things with the "lets get it out there and see what happens" mentality. So if I hadn't gone through 25 pages, picked every noticeable morsel of feedback, considered and commented specially on each one, then that would have been better? Not sure where you are coming from on this. I'll admit it, I felt this was unfair criticism, the "Yes, later" referred to mostly tangential extra designs, but anyway. Cross, our resident CPM Logi was more than happy to play the wait and see card, especially since Logis may have a new role with EWAR changes. I also believe that everyone got a fair chance and this proposal has overwhelming support, from what we can see. Apologies if I wasn't clear with the "yes, later" post. I know that you are looking for additional feedback to the spreadsheet and as noted elsewhere I appreciate the chance to provide feedback. Reference Cross advocating to hold off on updating support roles....he is a friend and i often run with him, however, he is not nearly the total of the logi community. I susepct if you asked the logi community would they rather have their suit updated now and incremented on later or wait for down the road changes after two potentially huge shifts (BW & EWAR) go into place I think they would like refreshed suits / roles with tweaks based on BW & EWAR. My frustration is that there is no path or objective we see you driving at with roles/classes/ect. I suspect you have that pathway and probably have shared it with some of the CPM. The rest of the player community can only react to individual pieces in isolation and speculate at best on the synchronicity or connectivity to both announced much less unknown goals. That's it, this is not a logi balance pass, it's an equipment pass and one of the benefits is to strengthen the logi and make it more unique, not an afterthought you shed after 1 minute of spamming. Equipment Bandwidth is for the good of the game, and for Logis, in that order. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 367	Posted - 2014.12.01 16:29:00 - [524] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Fine, if I kill you, you should have to respawn in a different match. Meaning what? Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5568	Posted - 2014.12.01 16:32:00 - [525] - Quote read your first line in the previous post and figure it out. If you're going to say something inane and ridiculous, expect an inane and ridiculous response. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1342	Posted - 2014.12.01 16:43:00 - [526] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: That's it, this is not a logi balance pass, it's an equipment pass and one of the benefits is to strengthen the logi and make it more unique, not an afterthought you shed after 1 minute of spamming. Equipment Bandwidth is for the good of the game, and for Logis, in that order. Agreed not a logi balance pass but it is one that greatly effects them. How you implement it will determine the assesment of positive or negative and your track record is for the most part pretty good in this regard. I like the idea of increaseing the value of support players obviously. I would also offer that if some of our logi suits game worthiness weren't weighted entirely on deployable equipment this would be a lot smoother to work with. Balancing the equipment and the logi's inconjunction wtih each other is similar to why cloak and scouts need to get looked at together. I do like the BW bump to Amarr and Cal logi you noted in the spreadsheet and it clearly helps the two races that are heavily dependant on deployable bonuses. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 367	Posted - 2014.12.01 16:49:00 - [527] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: read your first line in the previous post and figure it out. If you're going to say something inane and ridiculous, expect an inane and ridiculous response. Whatever... Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...
Stile451 Red Star. EoN. 372	Posted - 2014.12.01 16:50:00 - [528] - Quote What is CCPs stance on deactivation vs destruction? Have you done any tests to check on the performance impact(which from what I understand is the main reason to implement bandwidth)?
Greiv Rabbah 13Art of War13 20	Posted - 2014.12.01 17:34:00 - [529] - Quote Stile451 wrote: What is CCPs stance on deactivation vs destruction? Have you done any tests to check on the performance impact(which from what I understand is the main reason to implement bandwidth)? I think they're going with destruction. Would free up resources and help deal with ppl lagging maps
Greiv Rabbah 13Art of War13 20	Posted - 2014.12.01 17:50:00 - [530] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: You'll also notice in the spread sheet the number of "yes, later" answers on some of the communities concerns...this feels like how CCP used to do things with the "lets get it out there and see what happens" mentality. So if I hadn't gone through 25 pages, picked every noticeable morsel of feedback, considered and commented specially on each one, then that would have been better? Not sure where you are coming from on this. I'll admit it, I felt this was unfair criticism, the "Yes, later" referred to mostly tangential extra designs, but anyway. Cross, our resident CPM Logi was more than happy to play the wait and see card, especially since Logis may have a new role with EWAR changes. I also believe that everyone got a fair chance and this proposal has overwhelming support, from what we can see. This may be unfair criticism... Some people can only say bad things about dust no matter what changes are made. Whether they get what they want, its "CCP screwed up". Id try not to take it personally, many of us who have been here more than a year have gotten burned pretty bad amd have some very valid trust issues with ccp

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5568	Posted - 2014.12.01 17:59:00 - [531] - Quote Greiv Rabbah wrote: This may be unfair criticism... Some people can only say bad things about dust no matter what changes are made. Whether they get what they want, its "CCP screwed up". Id try not to take it personally, many of us who have been here more than a year have gotten burned pretty bad amd have some very valid trust issues with ccp None of which have come from Rattati. He actually listens to us, I think it's only fair that the reverse should be true more than it often is. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Dubya Guy Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 50	Posted - 2014.12.01 18:57:00 - [532] - Quote Thank you CCP. Thank you for all of the efforts recently to change and improve the game. As someone who is NOT a GÇ£closed beta vetGÇ¥, and therefore perhaps not as jaded as some others, I have to say I am impressed with the amount of effort being made to improve the game. Successful or not, you ARE trying. Do I agree that Equipment Bandwidth was the best way to achieve your stated goals (5 bullets esp. fixing spam) from the original post? No. But thanks to some helpful comments by others early on I came to realize that different methods for obtaining those goals were never on the table via this thread. This thread was not for the purpose of debating alternatives, or even the relative merits of Equipment Bandwidth. That ship had already sailed (floated as early as Dec 2013)...and I missed it. Bandwidth was the (somehow) selected solution. This thread was always about tweaking the numbers for Bandwidth. Although I and others were resistant to accepting that reality , I have a greater understanding now for the process. Thank you CCP Rattati for reading through all 25+ pages of angst and frustration to glean the few tidbits that actually addressed the point of your posting...to come up with numerical baselines for the Bandwidth project. I am sorry I was slow in realizing the place in this plan you were already at, and for contributing to the unhelpful and off-task portions of the thread. Please keep making changes and do not be discouraged. Sincerely, A dedicated, 100% of the time Logi, who has never had more than 2 active uplinks and 2 active hives on a map. FPS = First Person Support. Kills win battles but it's kinda hard to kill if you're dead and out of ammo.
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 868	Posted - 2014.12.01 19:58:00 - [533] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: The result will probs be the following, deploy EQ suit, put stuff down, change to slayer logi with basic stuff on as backup... This appears like a valid concern. You don't in fact have to equip a deployable item to keep it on the field. A 950 ehp slayer-logi will do that just fine (as just configured at protofits.com). That's definitely a weakness of the current design proposal. ... Of course that is a weakness it shares with the currently implemented design, but a weakness still. The much simpler "if you don't have it equipped on your suit it goes pop"-rule would solve that and the EQ-spam without the whole EQ bandwidth design...
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5574	Posted - 2014.12.01 20:02:00 - [534] - Quote 950 HP slayer logi is still pretty crappy compared to a solid assault fit. You're going to move slower than a fatsuit. Plus a sentinel or scout will fart and kill you in less than 1.5 seconds. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4767	Posted - 2014.12.01 20:07:00 - [535] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: That's it, this is not a logi balance pass, it's an equipment pass and one of the benefits is to strengthen the logi and make it more unique, not an afterthought you shed after 1 minute of spamming. Equipment Bandwidth is for the good of the game, and for Logis, in that order. Agreed not a logi balance pass but it is one that greatly effects them. How you implement it will determine the assesment of positive or negative and your track record is for the most part pretty good in this regard. I like the idea of increaseing the value of support players obviously. I would also offer that if some of our logi suits game worthiness weren't weighted entirely on deployable equipment this would be a lot smoother to work with. Balancing the equipment and the logi's inconjunction wtih each other is similar to why cloak and scouts need to get looked at together. I do like the BW bump to Amarr and Cal logi you noted in the spreadsheet and it clearly helps the two races that are heavily dependant on deployable bonuses. It's no secret I've been a fan of the BW mechanic all along, even as someone heavily dependant on deployable EQ. That said, I have to agree with Jaysyn to an extent. My concern, Rattati, is in terms of timing and GÇ£qualityGÇ¥ (for lack of a better word) of the forthcoming logi balance pass. By timing, I mean that one, hopefully it actually happens, and two, concern that the implementation of BW might delay it some, which also brings me to the point of quality. Assuming this change works as intended/hoped, we will see more logi suits in the field as people who migrated away to scouts (even I did, to a limited extent) come back. My concern is that the proliferation of logi suits might make them seem more effective than they really are. Your use of statistics, like with the RR for example, is commendable for its transparency and, for the most part, solidly drawn conclusions, unlike some of your predecessors. But, as someone who deals with experimental data frequently, I know all too well that it is subject to not only manipulation, which I donGÇÖt think would really be the case here, but also to less sinister problems like misapplication or misinterpretation (which would not be unprecedented here). I fear that if more people start using logi suits, they will appear more effective than they really are and this will adversely affect any true balance pass that comes later (dare I say, soonGäó). Some have suggested the opposite may happen, with more people using them, the liabilities will be that much more obvious and this will speed things up. That would obviously be fine with me but I have learned not to be that optimistic when it comes to Dust balancing. TL;DR: I fully support BW and have no problem with the current proposal. Just donGÇÖt delay or forget about the logi suits themselves. WeGÇÖve been slowly dying for reasons totally unrelated to GÇ£suit touristsGÇ¥ or EQ spam for some time now. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4767	Posted - 2014.12.01 20:11:00 - [536] - Quote Stefan Stahl wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: The result will probs be the following, deploy EQ suit, put stuff down, change to slayer logi with basic stuff on as backup... This appears like a valid concern. You don't in fact have to equip a deployable item to keep it on the field. A 950 ehp slayer-logi will do that just fine (as just configured at protofits.com). That's definitely a weakness of the current design proposal. ... Of course that is a weakness it shares with the currently implemented design, but a weakness still. The much simpler "if you don't have it equipped on your suit it goes pop"-rule would solve that and the EQ-spam without the whole EQ bandwidth design... That would be entirely too restrictive. And expensive. And disproportionately hammer the Caldari and Amarr logi's. Not totally sure it would be that much "simpler" either, considering bandwidth is something the servers already know how to deal with. People throw terms like "easier" and "simpler" around way too often around here.... (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 483	Posted - 2014.12.01 20:14:00 - [537] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: It will reinforce each suit having advantages and disadvantages. Players bypass logi weaknesses by changing suits while enjoying the benefit of equipment spam. It makes dedicated logis utterly unnecessary and largely superfluous. This needs to change. I completley disagree with you here. Hives and uplinks are only two of the 4 things a logi takes responsibility for. Though i use the amarr and cal logi for deployables, I carry other equipment on them because the suits need staying power beyond just drop and forget. The "weakness" may be in direct 1 v 1 combat, but if that's your primary usage of a logi then you're doing it wrong. There has never been a match where a dedicated logi was made superflous by equipment spammed around a supply depot. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5576	Posted - 2014.12.01 20:22:00 - [538] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: It will reinforce each suit having advantages and disadvantages. Players bypass logi weaknesses by changing suits while enjoying the benefit of equipment spam. It makes dedicated logis utterly unnecessary and largely superfluous. This needs to change. I completley disagree with you here. Hives and uplinks are only two of the 4 things a logi takes responsibility for. Though i use the amarr and cal logi for deployables, I carry other equipment on them because the suits need staying power beyond just drop and forget. The "weakness" may be in direct 1 v 1 combat, but if that's your primary usage of a logi then you're doing it wrong. There has never been a match where a dedicated logi was made superflous by equipment spammed around a supply depot. the point. It has flown over your head. Warpoint spam from uplinks and hives IS a benefit from logi suits. crap them out, swap suits, trash stays, warpoints free of effort or concern flow in. No risk, since you swapped back, you're in no danger of losing an expensive logistics fit. and since you can drop asstons of hives, why not make two fits? one to spam hives, another to cover 75% of your team's uplink limit by yourself, then swap to a useful suit and go kill people? THAT'S what I'm talking about when I say bypassing logi weaknesses. It's not tactical flexibility. it's farming. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4767	Posted - 2014.12.01 20:37:00 - [539] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: It will reinforce each suit having advantages and disadvantages. Players bypass logi weaknesses by changing suits while enjoying the benefit of equipment spam. It makes dedicated logis utterly unnecessary and largely superfluous. This needs to change. I completley disagree with you here. Hives and uplinks are only two of the 4 things a logi takes responsibility for. Though i use the amarr and cal logi for deployables, I carry other equipment on them because the suits need staying power beyond just drop and forget. The "weakness" may be in direct 1 v 1 combat, but if that's your primary usage of a logi then you're doing it wrong. There has never been a match where a dedicated logi was made superflous by equipment spammed around a supply depot. the point. It has flown over your head. Warpoint spam from uplinks and hives IS a benefit from logi suits. crap them out, swap suits, trash stays, warpoints free of effort or concern flow in. No risk, since you swapped back, you're in no danger of losing an expensive logistics fit. and since you can drop asstons of hives, why not make two fits? one to spam hives, another to cover 75% of your team's uplink limit by yourself, then swap to a useful suit and go kill people? THAT'S what I'm talking about when I say bypassing logi weaknesses. It's not tactical flexibility. it's farming. Also, EQ being spammed around supply depots is only part of the problem. They give cheap WP to the spammers but don't actively steal any from me, unlike the asshats who like to spawn in on my carefully positioned uplink and drop two of their own on top of it. The 30 spawns on that bonused quantum uplink are very unlikely to get used up, so that's not tactical either, it's pure douchbaggery. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 483	Posted - 2014.12.01 21:35:00 - [540] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: It will reinforce each suit having advantages and disadvantages. Players bypass logi weaknesses by changing suits while enjoying the benefit of equipment spam. It makes dedicated logis utterly unnecessary and largely superfluous. This needs to change. I completley disagree with you here. Hives and uplinks are only two of the 4 things a logi takes responsibility for. Though i use the amarr and cal logi for deployables, I carry other equipment on them because the suits need staying power beyond just drop and forget. The "weakness" may be in direct 1 v 1 combat, but if that's your primary usage of a logi then you're doing it wrong. There has never been a match where a dedicated logi was made superflous by equipment spammed around a supply depot. the point. It has flown over your head. Warpoint spam from uplinks and hives IS a benefit from logi suits. crap them out, swap suits, trash stays, warpoints free of effort or concern flow in. No risk, since you swapped back, you're in no danger of losing an expensive logistics fit. and since you can drop asstons of hives, why not make two fits? one to spam hives, another to cover 75% of your team's uplink limit by yourself, then swap to a useful suit and go kill people? THAT'S what I'm talking about when I say bypassing logi weaknesses. It's not tactical flexibility. it's farming. Your reflexes were too slow. All I said was equipment spam does not make dedicated logis superflous as you claimed. The entire scenario you bring up relies solely on control of the supply depot. You have proto forge guns, exactly what stopping you from popping that supply depot? The only one out of reach from ranged weapons in all of dust is the gallente research facillity, where this entire spam, lagfest, fiasco started. PC corps figured they could break the game doing it and here we are today. And even in there, without a dedicated logi keeping those heavies standing its extremely difficult to hold. You're a dedicated heavy, do you always ask for nanohive "trash", uplinks "spam" from logis that you don't bring in, pay for or invest SP into? I'm sure out of principle you walk from the redline rather than to spawn in on that garbage. I am equally sure you call in a lav and drive to nearest supply depot rather than touch a spammers nanohive. Be sure not to after this drops, make sure you don't help those guys farm WP. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.



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