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CCP Rattati wrote:

Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:

Breakin Stuff wrote:

Mad Syringe wrote:

CCP Rattati wrote:

Dear community

We have painstakingly gone through the 25 pages, collected feedback and adjusted the proposal, Cross and the rest of the CPM have also reviewed and given their feedback. Please find the updated numbers here and note that almost every unique comment is addressed on the right hand side:

Final Proposal

Please give your feedback, clear and concise. Thanks!

Dear Rattati,

as a long time Logi player (not so much since survivability is down the drain), I do not approve these changes.

1. You make it much harder to be effective as a logi without running proto.
2. You make it impossible for a logi to adapt to the situation by changing Roles, this is a major nerf to game fun for strategic gameplay. (Not all logis prefer to run leashing a heavy)
3. You still leave the possibility to spam equipment for the rest of the roles.
4. You do not adress more important stuff like the possibility to drop EQ around supply depots, which shouldn't be possible in the first place.
5. You do not adress the isk cost of Equipment, meaning why can anybody resupply EQ at a supply depot without ISK cost? Charging ISK for EQ/Suit change at Depot would solve more problems than this mediocre change to EQ...

I will play logi even less, since it would just be a waste of game time and a liability to the team.

Commandos and Assaults will do the logying from now!

If you introduce this crap without any buff to the survivability to the logi, it won't be worth to run the class anymore.

Cheers

And yet there are threads dedicated to addressing the logistics survivability issues in a clear and constructive manner with proposals in play.

You really think cross would have bothered wasting the effort if Rattati had said "LOLno logis are fine?"

Breakin, Cross and IWS both confirmed that this change was likely to go in without any further upgrades or reworks to the logi suits for a while. They did say the logi update was definetly still on the radar though which is good but very concerning.

BLUF: I do not feel that this change is on solid foundation without updates to the class most effected by it. You'll also notice in the spread sheet the number of "yes, later" answers on some of the communities concerns...this feels like how CCP used to do things with the "lets get it out there and see what happens" mentality. When this comes out it needs to be close to spot on...it's too big a potential negative shift if it's not.

So if I hadn't gone through 25 pages, picked every noticeable morsel of feedback, considered and commented specially on each one, then that would have been better?

Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 9 post(s)
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 320	Posted - 2014.11.19 15:46:00 - [1] - Quote Stile451[u wrote: 2:[/u] The second would be that equipment wouldn't self destruct but would rather deactivate if you don't have the bandwidth on your current suit(disabling visuals - no uplink light, no hive bubble). If the newest deployed equipment is destroyed or depleted the next newest would become active after a short waiting period(lets say 10 seconds). This should still help with performance issues(I believe it's caused by the concurrent VFX), and equipment spammers will think twice about spamming useless equipment. This should also allow a logistics player to switch out to another role for a short time as needed without being harshly penalized. +1 for this adjustment! Please do not pop deployed equipment when we change suits. Just deactivate it. My proposal to simplify the whole thing would be 10 deployables hard cap for all suits. 10 Active for Logi 4 Active for Assault and Commando 2 Active for Scouts 1 Active for Sentinels If you deploy more then 10, the first gets destroyed. If you change suits, stuff gets deactivated, if you change back, it get's reactivated. RE's + Proxies count as 1/3rd equipment. Max 6 each. Also Max 6 uplinks (8 for Amarr logi) and max 6 Hives (8 for Caldari Logi). This would help much more with spam than anything else. It's usually just one or two players who spam the hell out of everything in a match. We would need a deployed equipment counter, to keep track of destroyed equipment. (Since we don't see the deactivated stuff on the map anymore)... On the spawn screen, we should be able to see stuff popping up and away, when we change suits in the selector. This would allow to go for a Logi, if we need to reactivate a certain uplink, that would not be available with another suit. With these adjustments, I would still be able to plant strategic uplinks. Without loosing most of them with a suit change. If the active ones get destroyed, the ones deployed before them get reactivated. Also deactivated equipment would have a scan profile as remotes and proxies, making them harder to find. I love this game because of the customization of the fits, If I have to play logi all the time just to keep my stuff in the game, I would probably play logi even less, than after the last nerfs to the class. This game is about adjustment to the battlefield, making logis not able to adapt is a bad move, because all other roles can switch without consequences. Cheers Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing...
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 320	Posted - 2014.11.19 16:19:00 - [2] - Quote Doshneil Antaro wrote: Although I love this idea, the bw pop is necessary. The reason it pops is as much for frame rate as well as game immersion. Ever suit picked, every equipment placed need to be well thought out and serve a purpose. Spam, switch, and forget is not a purpose, but rather abuse. Your fix would be ideal if not for the frame rate issue would still be present. I beg to differ, the framerates should go up, because deactivated stuff has no sound FX and no visual FX. So much less stuff to render and calculate. If this is not enough, I would go so far as to restrain The max amount per player even further. The point is, if the stuff pops, the logi would be the only suit that might do stuff for nothing. If a scout gets kills or intel and switches later no punishment. Same for Assault and Heavies. But if a logi tries to prepare the pattlefield, and is pushed into a different suit because the battle demands it, he sacrifices his former efforts. I would completely stop logying just for this reason. It's not fair. If we can go back to the logi suit later, to get the stuff reactivated, the shoehorning for the logis wouldn't be so bad. The changes as they are laid out, sound like punishment for logis by people who just slay and don't adapt to the battlefield. Funnyly those are usually the ones who complain first when stuff isn't delivered to them by their logi peons... Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 336	Posted - 2014.11.20 18:57:00 - [3] - Quote Since bandwith seems to be already the way things are going, please DO NOT DESTROY EQUIPMENT below the switched in suits bandwith, but DEACTIVATE IT Making it possible to REACTIVATE IT when switching to a Logi suit again. This would be the only way to give the logi a chance to switch to a different role when needed without destroying all efforts before that. If the deployed equipment is lost, it would be a severe punishment for the flexibility of a single role. Nobody else is tied to stayin one role for the whole match, so should the logis! Even with this bandwith change, you will still have equipment spam. The spammers just need to stay in their logi suit, which they usually do anyway, to keep their farming pile of crap running. I propose again, a hardcap for every player of 10 pieces of gear on the ground, after which the first will be destroyed. Remotes/proxies count as 1/3rd piece. Only Logi suits would keep everything active Logi 10 all others less Assault 4 Commando 3 Scout 2 Heavy 1 or 0 This would be much simpler and much fairer than what you plan right now. Also no hives around depots (max 2 uplinks) and no equipment whatsoever around CRU's. Done you may thank me later for saving you time to code all this chaos. Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 343	Posted - 2014.11.24 16:28:00 - [4] - Quote Several things seem to be important to think of right now. Why do dedicated support player like myself switch suits after they deployed equipment? My reason for that is simple. After Tank 514 hit us hard, I was fed up with OP Vehicles and skilled into AV stuff. First it was just remotes/proxies, later when the MinCommando came out I skilled that to 5 instantly and swarms to 5 as well (P5 now). I switch regularly to my minmando just to support my team, since tanks and DS on rampage hurt my team a lot. Second is the fact, that when I run Logi without a squad, survivability is exactly ZERO, if you don't tank that suit into oblivion, and dump most equipment, at which point it makes more sense to run commando in the first place. So that's what I do (in pubs): I run a Sever with 3 different links for starters, and Minmando with MD SW or CR MD combo. I still suport my team with hives, if I have the feeling peeps around are desperate for Ammo I give away one of my hives. When I see my strategic links go down I suicide very often to get those links up again. This is all support play and not bloody equipment spam! Third why are Logis running Scouts instead of a logi? This is very simple to explain, it's also for team support. If you run a logi, you are worth ****, since if you make a support suit, you have no health to survive a single shotgun blast. So since a smart scout will allways go for the logi first, you die a lot. This however is no fun at all (and a liability in PC), and I can understand every Logi that puts a Amarr scout with lots of Scans and hp on to prevent his squad from being backstabbed. Fourth I only play leash logi in pubs, when in a squad with at least one or two needles and another logi. The reason for that is again survivability. If your suit costs 60-100K isk, you don't want to loose more than 2-3 or you don't make any money. So as soon as I run without a squad that backs me up, playing logi (with a decent suit) is out of the question. To the changes. Reducing spawns per Link and having more links on the suit This will lead to the following scenario. In PC, everybody and his mom will bring Links (it's already pretty much like that as far as I know) When you spawn on a link, you will put down another one in that place, or close to it, because otherwise you risk loosing that spawn place shortly. We will see piles of links just because of that. Also we will not see links in the rear (strategic ones) as much anymore, because if they get drained in 5 spawns, it's not worth the hassle. What I'm saying, is instead of less, you will see a lot more stuff being dumped, because it's just necessary. Even in Pub games you will see people spawning with links and dropping them all over the place, since after the first game with no uplinker you will start to think about bringing them yourself (whatever the role). The other stategy (or lack of) in pubs will be link supported ZERGING. Meaning, everybody will zerg in on the links supplied by the blop, and we can keep everything nice and tidy. Also very Boring. Since links are instantly exhausted, you will only be able to spawn in near the ZergBlop on freshly put down links. Popping equipment that is below the current suits bandwith This denies a support player to play another important support role, which is AV. If you now say, just pop a SL or PC on your suit, than I must say that's not very realistic. My minlogi has no sidearm, so Swarms are pretty much a nogo, and PLC will also get you killed in most curcumstances. Against dropships, you need the extra damage from the commando anyway, if you want to make an impression on the pilot. For Sentinels the usual drill is anyway, to deliver them to the rooftop with a logi, to build a nest, so that's not a real issue, only in pubs will those self sufficient Forgers suffer. But on the other hand, if logis need to manage their bandwith, the forger on the roof might see his hives and links go pop for no apparent reason (logi has put something down elsewhere and stetched his BW too thin). If that's a good or a bad thing, I don't know, It won't change anything though, since it won't prevent rooftop camping for dedicated campers... END PT1 Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 343	Posted - 2014.11.24 16:29:00 - [5] - Quote PT2 Verdict These changes will do nothing but punishing Logi players who adapt to the battlefield. Spammers will spam as much as before. The proposed Orbital changes will have a much greater impact on spam, since you have to spread the equipment for that it's not popped wit a single EMP OB. But when you have to spread it, it's more work and not as attractive. I urge you Rattati, wait with these (BW) changes, until we see what happens with those new tools, try to code simple stuff like no hives in the resupply radius of a supply depot. It can't be, that implementation of something simple as this is more complicated then the mess you are about to dump on us! Take the time to rethink the whole thing a simpler solution, like a hardcap of Active and inactive equipment per class, would be much simpler and more easy to understand for newer players. Last (and this is very IMPORTANT): Make deployed equipment disappear from the assets of the player. Meaning, if you spam equipment you have to pay in isk. Right now, it is basically absolutely free. If you switch back to a different suit you will not loose those hives and links. This is wrong. Everything deployed should be paid for by the person who put's it down, since you will be paid back in wp/isk! If you go back to a supply to restock your hives, one of each will be taken from your assets!!! THIS CHANGE WOULD HURT MOSTLY THE SPAMMERS It wouldn't hurt dedicated support logis, since they often enough pay with their suits when they intentionally suicide to get back with more gear. Since Logis that run with their squads, usually try to keep their stuff on the suit, until it's needed. This needs to go in line with slightly more WP for higher tiers of equipment. Otherwise everybody would just spam cheaper stuff... Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 345	Posted - 2014.11.25 11:40:00 - [6] - Quote Sylwester Dziewiecki wrote: That is one way to exploit BW system, those 8 uplinks mean a lot on public matches, especially if they are placed on rooftops. Bigger thing that consort me is that player may come back to base to switch Logistics suit to one that have just bpo weapon(to lower his loses in case shot-off) and stay for entire match in vehicle - HAV, ADS or any other - players doing so will perform more roles then they should, and because of it I think that vehicle BW need to be included in this changes; player BW need drop at least to 4 when they enter any vehicle to finely end with rooftops-uplink-spam nonsense. Rooftop spam will still be possible, since you have to stay with the links (swarm in hand) to protect said uplinks against destruction by pesky enemy DS... No change to spam at all inbound with those BW changes!!! Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 350	Posted - 2014.11.26 15:50:00 - [7] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: You are wrong. Yes supporting for AV is good, but It's really the domain of the Commando and the Assault for a reason. However if you want to still do it as a logi, it is possible. Just skill into the Amar Logi suit and carry your swarms with a sidearm and still have plenty of equipment slots... There done. Logi's are not used right now because SCOUTS are able to be slayers, assault, AND logis too with their second equipment slot. By adding a limited bandwidth to the scout, you effectively remove them from the logi role without having to remove that extra pesky equipment slot. BW will only make logi's more valued and prized and once players realize that, they will also start PROTECTING THEIR LOGI'S!!!! Hell I can see non-logis like assaults or commandos even carrying a needle just so that they can ensure that their logi can get back up and continue to support the squad. Cuz', you know, that scout's gonna kill that logi with a shotgun in two hits, but then die to the rest of the squad and then the rest of the squad revives the logi and problem solved... I'm saying it again, I'm not against Bandwith, I'm against the destruction of stuff that is deployed. If it gets deactivated, so that I can go back in a logi suit after the Vehicle threat is removed from Battlefield, I'm fine with the general Idea of BW! What you say about Assault protecting the logis is wishful thinking, it won't happen. Even with a squad, the best thing you can hope for is that somebody carries a needle. When I play against squads with logis, I make sure the logi is not rezzable. This behaviour will be common sense with all non noob players. What we will see in the future, is assaults, scouts and commandos dominating everything. There might be some full time logis who will stick to the role, but all the players who love the adaptability of role change will not bother to deploy stuff above their suit with the least bandwith, since it's to unpredictable if the stuff stays on the field. So better calculate with less stuff from the start. I do love this game for the possibility to adapt to the battle, if that's taken away from the logi, it would take away a lot of the fun for me... But hey, this is a good reason to skill into that Shaman BPO, so I don't need to waste money when I run logi... BTW, that you propose to skill into the suits of the slavers is beyond me... It's no option for a true Matar! Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 351	Posted - 2014.11.26 21:07:00 - [8] - Quote The proposal to charge people for equipment spam is the most just in my opinion. Since a single flux on a pile of EQ, can wipeout quite a lot of ISK, it would hurt those who just set the crap up for farming around supply depots. The flux OB's would also lead people to keep the stuff on their suits, since it won't be destroyed there. I hope the devs take a serious look at this, since BANDWITH WILL NOT END SPAM Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 365	Posted - 2014.12.01 11:54:00 - [9] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear community We have painstakingly gone through the 25 pages, collected feedback and adjusted the proposal, Cross and the rest of the CPM have also reviewed and given their feedback. Please find the updated numbers here and note that almost every unique comment is addressed on the right hand side: Final Proposal Please give your feedback, clear and concise. Thanks! Dear Rattati, as a long time Logi player (not so much since survivability is down the drain), I do not approve these changes. 1. You make it much harder to be effective as a logi without running proto. 2. You make it impossible for a logi to adapt to the situation by changing Roles, this is a major nerf to game fun for strategic gameplay. (Not all logis prefer to run leashing a heavy) 3. You still leave the possibility to spam equipment for the rest of the roles. 4. You do not adress more importatns stuff like the possibility to drop EQ around supply depots, which shouldn't be possible in the first place. 5. You do not adress the isk cost of Equipment, meaning why can anybody resupply EQ at a supply depot without ISK cost? Charging ISK for EQ/Suit change at Depot would solve more problems than this mediocre change to EQ... I will play logi even less, since it would just be a waste of game time and a liability to the team. Commandos and Assaults will do the logying from now! If you introduce this crap without any buff to the survivability to the logi, it won't be worth to run the class anymore. Cheers Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 366	Posted - 2014.12.01 15:45:00 - [10] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Dear community We have painstakingly gone through the 25 pages, collected feedback and adjusted the proposal, Cross and the rest of the CPM have also reviewed and given their feedback. Please find the updated numbers here and note that almost every unique comment is addressed on the right hand side: Final Proposal Please give your feedback, clear and concise. Thanks! Dear Rattati, as a long time Logi player (not so much since survivability is down the drain), I do not approve these changes. 1. You make it much harder to be effective as a logi without running proto. 2. You make it impossible for a logi to adapt to the situation by changing Roles, this is a major nerf to game fun for strategic gameplay. (Not all logis prefer to run leashing a heavy) 3. You still leave the possibility to spam equipment for the rest of the roles. 4. You do not adress more important stuff like the possibility to drop EQ around supply depots, which shouldn't be possible in the first place. 5. You do not adress the isk cost of Equipment, meaning why can anybody resupply EQ at a supply depot without ISK cost? Charging ISK for EQ/Suit change at Depot would solve more problems than this mediocre change to EQ... I will play logi even less, since it would just be a waste of game time and a liability to the team. Commandos and Assaults will do the logying from now! If you introduce this crap without any buff to the survivability to the logi, it won't be worth to run the class anymore. Cheers And yet there are threads dedicated to addressing the logistics survivability issues in a clear and constructive manner with proposals in play. You really think cross would have bothered wasting the effort if Rattati had said "LOLno logis are fine?" Breakin, Cross and IWS both confirmed that this change was likely to go in without any further upgrades or reworks to the logi suits for a while. They did say the logi update was definetly still on the radar though which is good but very concerning. BLUF: I do not feel that this change is on solid foundation without updates to the class most effected by it. You'll also notice in the spread sheet the number of "yes, later" answers on some of the communities concerns...this feels like how CCP used to do things with the "lets get it out there and see what happens" mentality. When this comes out it needs to be close to spot on...it's too big a potential negative shift if it's not. So if I hadn't gone through 25 pages, picked every noticeable morsel of feedback, considered and commented specially on each one, then that would have been better? Hey Rattati, just to be clear. I appreciate all your hard work so far on improving the dust experience. But seriously, this change will punish all players who have skilled into logi without regarding themselves as Pure logis (i.e. never using other frames). I could live with those changes, if EQ below BW would not be DESTROYED but DEACTIVATED, until a suit with enough BW is spawned again. This would allow Logis to change into another role without sacrificing all the strategic work he did before. This is very important for every player who places EQ strategically instead of just at the nearest supply depot! That all ASSault players and lol scouts ignore this fact is part of the "He's a logi, so he better bring our stuff and get out of the way!" attitude of the general populae in DUST. So the only ones dependent on Logis will be heavies... and even they will be fine if the stuff get's dropped by assaults instead... I think if you keep the changes, at least make all repping EQ (hives and repper) Logi only. So that not everybody and his mom can do the stuff the logis are supposed to do. Cheers Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...

Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 366	Posted - 2014.12.01 16:16:00 - [11] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: Hey Rattati, just to be clear. I appreciate all your hard work so far on improving the dust experience. But seriously, this change will punish all players who have skilled into logi without regarding themselves as Pure logis (i.e. never using other frames). I could live with those changes, if EQ below BW would not be DESTROYED but DEACTIVATED, until a suit with enough BW is spawned again. This would allow Logis to change into another role without sacrificing all the strategic work he did before. This is very important for every player who places EQ strategically instead of just at the nearest supply depot! That all ASSault players and lol scouts ignore this fact is part of the "He's a logi, so he better bring our stuff and get out of the way!" attitude of the general populae in DUST. So the only ones dependent on Logis will be heavies... and even they will be fine if the stuff get's dropped by assaults instead... I think if you keep the changes, at least make all repping EQ (hives and repper) Logi only. So that not everybody and his mom can do the stuff the logis are supposed to do. Cheers So, do you also expect an Assault to keep the two light weapons when he switches from a Commando? Or maybe the HMG when he switches from a Sentinel? Hmm, why not the cloak too when switching from the Scout? No I don't, but I also do not expect that all kills you did with that HMG get taken from the board. Fact is, that if you play a logi as battlefield manager (deploying links in strategic positions which can take quite some time on certain maps) your effort gets taken away by one suit change into another class. If the Uplinks would be just DEACTIVATED instead of DESTROYED, I would have the possibility to go back to said logi suits and not have my work from the start of the game wasted. I agree that you should not change suits roles without cost, but so far the only ones who lose earlier efforts, are the logis. Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 366	Posted - 2014.12.01 16:19:00 - [12] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: It will reinforce each suit having advantages and disadvantages. Players bypass logi weaknesses by changing suits while enjoying the benefit of equipment spam. It makes dedicated logis utterly unnecessary and largely superfluous. This needs to change. Dedicated logis will still be pathetically weak. The result will probs be the following, deploy EQ suit, put stuff down, change to slayer logi with basic stuff on as backup... Well if that's what everybody wants, great MISSION ACCOMPLISHED Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 367	Posted - 2014.12.01 16:29:00 - [13] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Fine, if I kill you, you should have to respawn in a different match. Meaning what? Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 367	Posted - 2014.12.01 16:49:00 - [14] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: read your first line in the previous post and figure it out. If you're going to say something inane and ridiculous, expect an inane and ridiculous response. Whatever... Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 367	Posted - 2014.12.02 01:11:00 - [15] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Stefan Stahl wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: The result will probs be the following, deploy EQ suit, put stuff down, change to slayer logi with basic stuff on as backup... This appears like a valid concern. You don't in fact have to equip a deployable item to keep it on the field. A 950 ehp slayer-logi will do that just fine (as just configured at protofits.com). That's definitely a weakness of the current design proposal. ... Of course that is a weakness it shares with the currently implemented design, but a weakness still. The much simpler "if you don't have it equipped on your suit it goes pop"-rule would solve that and the EQ-spam without the whole EQ bandwidth design... That would be entirely too restrictive. And expensive. And disproportionately hammer the Caldari and Amarr logi's. Not totally sure it would be that much "simpler" either, considering bandwidth is something the servers already know how to deal with. People throw terms like "easier" and "simpler" around way too often around here.... The simple version would have been, to charge everyone for switching suits or loadouts. So as soon as you switch suits, everything that's not part of the new loadout gets dropped on the Battlefield and is taken from your assets. EQ Spam would still be possible but at a price in isk. To prevent role switching, just treat every role change at supply depot as suicide. I would be perfectly fine with that, but every spammer would not! Cheers Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...