DUST Search - Sticky:[Feedback] Equipment Bandwidth

CCP Rattati wrote:

Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:

Breakin Stuff wrote:

Mad Syringe wrote:

CCP Rattati wrote:

Dear community

We have painstakingly gone through the 25 pages, collected feedback and adjusted the proposal, Cross and the rest of the CPM have also reviewed and given their feedback. Please find the updated numbers here and note that almost every unique comment is addressed on the right hand side:

Final Proposal

Please give your feedback, clear and concise. Thanks!

Dear Rattati,

as a long time Logi player (not so much since survivability is down the drain), I do not approve these changes.

1. You make it much harder to be effective as a logi without running proto.
2. You make it impossible for a logi to adapt to the situation by changing Roles, this is a major nerf to game fun for strategic gameplay. (Not all logis prefer to run leashing a heavy)
3. You still leave the possibility to spam equipment for the rest of the roles.
4. You do not adress more important stuff like the possibility to drop EQ around supply depots, which shouldn't be possible in the first place.
5. You do not adress the isk cost of Equipment, meaning why can anybody resupply EQ at a supply depot without ISK cost? Charging ISK for EQ/Suit change at Depot would solve more problems than this mediocre change to EQ...

I will play logi even less, since it would just be a waste of game time and a liability to the team.

Commandos and Assaults will do the logying from now!

If you introduce this crap without any buff to the survivability to the logi, it won't be worth to run the class anymore.

Cheers

And yet there are threads dedicated to addressing the logistics survivability issues in a clear and constructive manner with proposals in play.

You really think cross would have bothered wasting the effort if Rattati had said "LOLno logis are fine?"

Breakin, Cross and IWS both confirmed that this change was likely to go in without any further upgrades or reworks to the logi suits for a while. They did say the logi update was definetly still on the radar though which is good but very concerning.

BLUF: I do not feel that this change is on solid foundation without updates to the class most effected by it. You'll also notice in the spread sheet the number of "yes, later" answers on some of the communities concerns...this feels like how CCP used to do things with the "lets get it out there and see what happens" mentality. When this comes out it needs to be close to spot on...it's too big a potential negative shift if it's not.

So if I hadn't gone through 25 pages, picked every noticeable morsel of feedback, considered and commented specially on each one, then that would have been better?


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 9 post(s)
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1292	Posted - 2014.11.18 15:33:00 - [1] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: John Psi wrote: It's very simple - the equipment running from any suit should not live longer this suit. Suit die or refitted - equipment DOWN. So the roll of a Logi should be to cower in a corner once all their equipment is deployed? Nono, as long as you respawn in a Logi again, they stay up. Rattati...quick point on this. It does limit the tactical flexibility players have when they get painted into a corner (i.e. perhaps too steep a cost for switching roles in the match). The ability to adapt mid-game between suits / fits ect is at least for me a major positive of the game and this may induce too steep a penalty. Consider this...quite a few dedicated Logi players also play Sentinel as well. Imagine dropping a couple uplinks and seeding your nanohives and if it looks like the enemy push is gaining momentum you switch to your heavy hmg and poof...the hardpoint you had set up to support your team is gone. That said, I do generally like the idea of bandwidth and the thought process of deriving it from EVE. I think it's also key to remember that in EVE you don't die (i.e. lose ships) nearly on the same scale as Dust. Also, when you die in EVE the drones still stay in space and don't die with you. I think with perhaps some tweaks this system could work in Dust but I'm not sure quite how to implement it at the moment. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1293	Posted - 2014.11.18 15:41:00 - [2] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: John Psi wrote: It's very simple - the equipment running from any suit should not live longer this suit. Suit die or refitted - equipment DOWN. So the roll of a Logi should be to cower in a corner once all their equipment is deployed? Nono, as long as you respawn in a Logi again, they stay up. This right here is a massive problem. If i want to redploy i can only choose a logi suit, or be penalized for bringing ina logi suit in the first place. Scenario: Run in with amarr logi. Drop links. Fight some more killed by heavy. I cannot pick a Scout to out flank it, or a min scout to run around and hack. Can't pick another heavy to defend the spawn area. Can't pick assault or commando to push onward. My uplinks will be destroyed if I spawn in anything but a logi, thus defeating the initial purpose of bringing uplinks to begin with, so i can respawn with my squad in a good, safe location. Flexibility will be fine for any other suit, switching an assault to a commando, a scout to heavy, etc. The only suit/players to be penalized for being flexible are amarr and caldari logis to a large extent, to a lessre extent any other logi. The message to them is "you had better not change suits or else your bonus, isk, and SP investment = zero". Tesfa, spot on. Imagine if you told other roles (Scout, Assault, Commando, Sentinel) that if they swapped out of their roles to Logi they would lose kills or the enemy would regain clones. That's clearly an over the top example but it really does is highlight the penalty applied to Logi players. If there was a way to offset this by incentivizing folks to stay in support roles through positive effects and not just penalties. ps...I would like to see how this works with Logi suit / role updates that may be coming up. Bandwidth, equip slots, suit specs, and role/racial bonus all starts to connect in this discussion. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1297	Posted - 2014.11.21 22:56:00 - [3] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Bluntly this needs to happen. Equipment substitutions and lemming rushes via uplink replace real tactics and a need for thought in DUST. People claim tthat this limits tactical options but the current meta is you spam or you lose. There is no tactical flexibility. There is room for only one tactic. For every advantage on the field you must make a sacrifice. The current equipment rules require players to sacrifice nothing. Bandwidth will force a meta change. In my opinion that alone is more than compensation for every drawback. Bluntly change needs to happen but that doesn't mean this change. I would also point out that it's pretty easy to establish a position that the potential meta change is "more than compensation for every drawback" when you aren't the one being directly effected. That said, I am willing to keep an open mind on this and would like to see what logi suit / role reworks are developing as well and how this might tie in. The bandwidth concept as currently described would would achieve the lower equipment level deployed per match...however, it would potentailly cripple the Logi's that make support play daily business and often find themselves relying on multiple equipment passes and specialized suit fits to carry the day for their squad or team. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1297	Posted - 2014.11.25 15:24:00 - [4] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: Moonracer2000 wrote: I like the idea of cutting down equipment spam and buffing the logi role of equipment but BW seems necessarily complicated. Lots of coding for all equipment and each suit. Lots for players to keep track of. A simpler system: Calculate the max number of deployables per player in a match allowable while keeping performance. Take that average and set a hard cap per player (or suit type). [example] If the average is 3 you could allow 1 for heavies, 4 for logis and 2 for all other suits. If you want to keep 4 pieces of equipment on the map you stay as a logi. If you switch to a heavy you lose all but one piece of equipment on the field. REs and proxies might require a separate counter? This is effectively the same as the bandwidth change. Honestly they had this exact same issue in EVE with drones that were deployed from ships. They were causing so much lag that the servers would crash. So they came up with a bandwidth nerf that worked. They are only applying the same fix to this game and I have to say that I agree with it, but only if they fix the respawning causing stuff to disappear issue first. EVE also cut down the number of drones available to some ships as well. We could make the equipment more powerful and buff its HP to make it more survivable but make them very expensive Cpu/PG costs for non-logi suits to use anything but standard level kit. Edit...yeah, I know it doesn't fix the first guy in dropping tons of uplinks but then switching to scout. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1298	Posted - 2014.11.26 16:12:00 - [5] - Quote NextDark Knight wrote: Dust 514 v1.9 - Rant on Solo Gameplay: http://youtu.be/eNqtvTc1_UE I won't be able to play like this with equipment bandwidth From another thread that echos some of your sentiments I think... #252Posted: 2014.11.26 16:04 \| Report \| Edited by: Jaysyn Larrisen i think there are several areas that need to be addressed with the logi role and the racial suits. Removing tactical flexibility and adaptability...two of the few shining areas of positive play in Dust in an attempt to attack the singular problem of equipment spam is just not a well thought out idea at this point. As i've noted in other places, I'm reserving my final judgement until I can see how ALL the overlapping factors are coming together. My opinions are based on what CCP has commented on or posted to publicly since all else is speculation by players. I maybe wrong but many of those it seems many loudly arguing for the bandwidth concept aren't those that will be impacted in the most meaningful way, i.e. dedicated support players. The bandwidth idea does quite directly address "One Suit Wonders" at the same time as putting professional logis at another potential disadvantage. I admit that I may not see the whole picture. That said, I also know that I'm looking at this from the perspective and experience level of someone that has been running logi 80% of the time for a couple years with some AV and Heavy mixed into the minority percentage. When you run logi but the tanks and ADS are overwhelming you then switch to AV and back to logi; when the hives are down and you and partner need to hold the last objective for another couple minutes to secure victory you can switch to heavy. The bandwidth concept takes that level of play away for logi players. Scouts can swap to a heavy suit and break defenses and switch back to scout with no penalty...assaults can switch to scouts and cloak/shotty then to AV suit with no penalty. With the bandwidth idea and your team is getting hammered by vehicles and you switch to AV you can instantly erase 90% of your equipment no matter how thoughtfully placed and tactically valuable to your team. No other role will make that trade off in this concept. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1313	Posted - 2014.11.28 00:52:00 - [6] - Quote #63Posted: 2014.11.27 21:43 \| Report True Adamance wrote: However you have yet to suggest why the logistics player should gain the benefit of using their suit, switching to another, and continuing to have personal and team wide benefits despite being a completely different role. My response: Every suit has this ability to varying degrees already...the uplinks you placed in the perfect spot as a scout remain, correct? Even with bandwidth applied those uplinks will likely still be active when that scout switches to his Six Kin HMG fit then back to his cloak shotgunner fit a few minutes later. Effectively every suit can enjoy the benefits you describe while being in a different role and switch roles with near impunity. I for one actually think that is a strength of the game. The issue is the scale or capacity for spam that logi suits have seem to be the point of contention you bring up. There is no way to impact that without a negative impact on Logi suits short of a dramatic revision of how equipment works in the game. Perhaps the idea of squad bandwidth might level things out...it's honestly difficult to tell. There are numerous variables that are difficult to sort through to try and find an optimal solution in regards to equipment spam. Logi suits desperately need significant redesign already and perhaps bandwidth can be a positive factor but it can't simply be another constraint that they carry the lionshare of the consequences on. One thing i do know about Dust is that nothing scales well. Two scouts add flavor and variety to a team and added tactical challenge to an opponent but 13 of them on one team is broken. The same can be said for heavies, vehicles, and apparently equipment. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1326	Posted - 2014.11.29 14:56:00 - [7] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Switching to a suit with no equipment slots should not allow you to retain equipment. Sentinel bandwidth should be zero. Squad bandwidth makes no sense. 1. Agreed...but you can keep your deployables if you do have bandwidth right? One or two slots worth depending on suit. The cost of switching to suits is exorbitantly higher for the logi with no upside. Losing one or two ammo hives does not in anyway equate to losing a full rack of proto uplinks, ammo hives and triage hives. 2. Agreed. 3. Never said that it did. I heard some folks kicking that around as an alternative and mentioned it, thats all. Also, there is no getting around that if you want to address equipment spam you have to apply hard nerfs to logi suits....which then further undercut a role already being left behind in the dust. My biggest concern is that BW width will go in and we still won't have a rework for the logi suits in hand. If BW (which i still think is a poor idea) goes in...or rather when it goes in, it MUST be either after the logi suit rework or in conjunction with it. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1334	Posted - 2014.11.30 16:42:00 - [8] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Meee One wrote: Stile451 wrote: With no dev feedback for over 10 days I'm guessing they're not interested in community responses or ideas that aren't in line with the original post. Well,if the responses consisted of more than BW work around suggestions (BW modules,BW skill,BW on sents),then maybe they would. Or "this sux because I don't understand it and change is scary" Or that some of us have legitimate concerns about the implementation of something this radical with little understanding of what other factors may be in play. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1334	Posted - 2014.11.30 17:20:00 - [9] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Meee One wrote: Stile451 wrote: With no dev feedback for over 10 days I'm guessing they're not interested in community responses or ideas that aren't in line with the original post. Well,if the responses consisted of more than BW work around suggestions (BW modules,BW skill,BW on sents),then maybe they would. Or "this sux because I don't understand it and change is scary" Or that some of us have legitimate concerns about the implementation of something this radical with little understanding of what other factors may be in play. And I find your fear not only hilarious, but profitable! lol..ok, Breakin, let me know how you profit from it! I might start running low in isk in a couple years and need to pad the wallet. Seriously, though...bandwidth maybe a net positive for the game, however they're are (or were really) other steps they could have taken ro address the issue incrementally. Either way it's not going to stop me from playing logi, far from it. To me the bigger issue is that BW needs to be implemented in conjunction with or after the logi suit update that we are past due for. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1336	Posted - 2014.11.30 19:47:00 - [10] - Quote I don't mind the "one role at a time" concept at all...it's understandable. The part I do mind is that the penalty for switching roles is dramatically different for logi players vs. any other role. There's not a lot of ways to cut back on the ability to put out high levels of equipment without directly impacting logi suits. I would honestly like them to roll out the update to the support suits before introducing BW. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen

Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1336	Posted - 2014.11.30 20:23:00 - [11] - Quote I think that depends on the tactical situation. Switching to once or twice...pretty common; switching to other roles is usually a function of how many other folks you are running with. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1338	Posted - 2014.12.01 14:01:00 - [12] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Dear community We have painstakingly gone through the 25 pages, collected feedback and adjusted the proposal, Cross and the rest of the CPM have also reviewed and given their feedback. Please find the updated numbers here and note that almost every unique comment is addressed on the right hand side: Final Proposal Please give your feedback, clear and concise. Thanks! Dear Rattati, as a long time Logi player (not so much since survivability is down the drain), I do not approve these changes. 1. You make it much harder to be effective as a logi without running proto. 2. You make it impossible for a logi to adapt to the situation by changing Roles, this is a major nerf to game fun for strategic gameplay. (Not all logis prefer to run leashing a heavy) 3. You still leave the possibility to spam equipment for the rest of the roles. 4. You do not adress more important stuff like the possibility to drop EQ around supply depots, which shouldn't be possible in the first place. 5. You do not adress the isk cost of Equipment, meaning why can anybody resupply EQ at a supply depot without ISK cost? Charging ISK for EQ/Suit change at Depot would solve more problems than this mediocre change to EQ... I will play logi even less, since it would just be a waste of game time and a liability to the team. Commandos and Assaults will do the logying from now! If you introduce this crap without any buff to the survivability to the logi, it won't be worth to run the class anymore. Cheers And yet there are threads dedicated to addressing the logistics survivability issues in a clear and constructive manner with proposals in play. You really think cross would have bothered wasting the effort if Rattati had said "LOLno logis are fine?" Breakin, Cross and IWS both confirmed that this change was likely to go in without any further upgrades or reworks to the logi suits for a while. They did say the logi update was definetly still on the radar though which is good but very concerning. BLUF: I do not feel that this change is on solid foundation without updates to the class most effected by it. You'll also notice in the spread sheet the number of "yes, later" answers on some of the communities concerns...this feels like how CCP used to do things with the "lets get it out there and see what happens" mentality. When this comes out it needs to be close to spot on...it's too big a potential negative shift if it's not. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1340	Posted - 2014.12.01 15:34:00 - [13] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Dear community We have painstakingly gone through the 25 pages, collected feedback and adjusted the proposal, Cross and the rest of the CPM have also reviewed and given their feedback. Please find the updated numbers here and note that almost every unique comment is addressed on the right hand side: Final Proposal Please give your feedback, clear and concise. Thanks! Dear Rattati, as a long time Logi player (not so much since survivability is down the drain), I do not approve these changes. 1. You make it much harder to be effective as a logi without running proto. 2. You make it impossible for a logi to adapt to the situation by changing Roles, this is a major nerf to game fun for strategic gameplay. (Not all logis prefer to run leashing a heavy) 3. You still leave the possibility to spam equipment for the rest of the roles. 4. You do not adress more important stuff like the possibility to drop EQ around supply depots, which shouldn't be possible in the first place. 5. You do not adress the isk cost of Equipment, meaning why can anybody resupply EQ at a supply depot without ISK cost? Charging ISK for EQ/Suit change at Depot would solve more problems than this mediocre change to EQ... I will play logi even less, since it would just be a waste of game time and a liability to the team. Commandos and Assaults will do the logying from now! If you introduce this crap without any buff to the survivability to the logi, it won't be worth to run the class anymore. Cheers And yet there are threads dedicated to addressing the logistics survivability issues in a clear and constructive manner with proposals in play. You really think cross would have bothered wasting the effort if Rattati had said "LOLno logis are fine?" Breakin, Cross and IWS both confirmed that this change was likely to go in without any further upgrades or reworks to the logi suits for a while. They did say the logi update was definetly still on the radar though which is good but very concerning. BLUF: I do not feel that this change is on solid foundation without updates to the class most effected by it. You'll also notice in the spread sheet the number of "yes, later" answers on some of the communities concerns...this feels like how CCP used to do things with the "lets get it out there and see what happens" mentality. When this comes out it needs to be close to spot on...it's too big a potential negative shift if it's not. So if I hadn't gone through 25 pages, picked every noticeable morsel of feedback, considered and commented specially on each one, then that would have been better? Not sure where you are coming from on this. My point is that I think you've done an outstanding job of cataloging many of the player concerns and there seems to be some areas that could continue to be matured a little longer. I never indicated that it wasn't a good thing the way you captured and adjusted your BW concept based on some players feedback. It definitetly better than the original. Still not a fan of it per se but that ship has sailed and I want to focus on making it as good of a mechanic as possible. My bigger concern is the BW changes being done in isolation from adjustments to the Logisitcs class that seriously needs a refresh. Would you be willing to implement the logi refresh in conjunction with implementing the BW mechanic? "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1341	Posted - 2014.12.01 16:16:00 - [14] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: You'll also notice in the spread sheet the number of "yes, later" answers on some of the communities concerns...this feels like how CCP used to do things with the "lets get it out there and see what happens" mentality. So if I hadn't gone through 25 pages, picked every noticeable morsel of feedback, considered and commented specially on each one, then that would have been better? Not sure where you are coming from on this. I'll admit it, I felt this was unfair criticism, the "Yes, later" referred to mostly tangential extra designs, but anyway. Cross, our resident CPM Logi was more than happy to play the wait and see card, especially since Logis may have a new role with EWAR changes. I also believe that everyone got a fair chance and this proposal has overwhelming support, from what we can see. Apologies if I wasn't clear with the "yes, later" post. I know that you are looking for additional feedback to the spreadsheet and as noted elsewhere I appreciate the chance to provide feedback. Reference Cross advocating to hold off on updating support roles....he is a friend and i often run with him, however, he is not nearly the total of the logi community. I susepct if you asked the logi community would they rather have their suit updated now and incremented on later or wait for down the road changes after two potentially huge shifts (BW & EWAR) go into place I think they would like refreshed suits / roles with tweaks based on BW & EWAR. My frustration is that there is no path or objective we see you driving at with roles/classes/ect. I suspect you have that pathway and probably have shared it with some of the CPM. The rest of the player community can only react to individual pieces in isolation and speculate at best on the synchronicity or connectivity to both announced much less unknown goals. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1342	Posted - 2014.12.01 16:43:00 - [15] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: That's it, this is not a logi balance pass, it's an equipment pass and one of the benefits is to strengthen the logi and make it more unique, not an afterthought you shed after 1 minute of spamming. Equipment Bandwidth is for the good of the game, and for Logis, in that order. Agreed not a logi balance pass but it is one that greatly effects them. How you implement it will determine the assesment of positive or negative and your track record is for the most part pretty good in this regard. I like the idea of increaseing the value of support players obviously. I would also offer that if some of our logi suits game worthiness weren't weighted entirely on deployable equipment this would be a lot smoother to work with. Balancing the equipment and the logi's inconjunction wtih each other is similar to why cloak and scouts need to get looked at together. I do like the BW bump to Amarr and Cal logi you noted in the spreadsheet and it clearly helps the two races that are heavily dependant on deployable bonuses. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen