No dude. Heavies will eat a nerf before they touch logis after this. I think that's the misunderstanding. You can't touch logis much anymore given their fragility and weakness in combat.

If anything bandwidth allows CCP wiggle room to boost a lot of logi aspects and it might come to pass that logis join commando suits as the kings of regen if that change happens.

There's a lot of assumption going on here.

Finally my gameplay doesn't involve SOME AV. I spend more time running AV than anything else.

Everything else is a sideline.

Bluntly this needs to happen. Equipment substitutions and lemming rushes via uplink replace real tactics and a need for thought in DUST.

People claim tthat this limits tactical options but the current meta is you spam or you lose. There is no tactical flexibility. There is room for only one tactic.

For every advantage on the field you must make a sacrifice. The current equipment rules require players to sacrifice nothing.

Bandwidth will force a meta change. In my opinion that alone is more than compensation for every drawback.

Maybe is time to leave the game, with this changes play this game is like kill myself, CCP you going to loose a lot of people with this changes.

Loving the changes as teams become reliant on Logistics players to give them support instead of allowing them to spam equipment everywhere, as well as preventing "Logi Bombs" (so to speak) in city nodes, which have been blamed for frame rate and fun reduction.

I have a question regarding equipment BW vs Max Active that you don't cover in your example. I'll attempt to make my own example:

To get an understanding, I'll explain the equipment. 1) R-9 Uplink 2) X-3 Quantum Nanohives 3) X-3 Quantum Nanohives
Yes, this is not an ideal setup, but it's just to explain my example.

So far, the Logistics player has used up 4 equipment with 2 left on his person. As we know, X-3s have a Max Active of 2. However, the Bandwidth Limit has also already been reached too. So what happens when...

Logically, we know only 2 X-3s can be active at the same time, so it would be feasible for the 1st X-3 to pop, given the Max Active Limit was reached first. The R-9 Uplinks remain untouched, the 2nd X-3 stays, and the 3rd X-3 actives and rainbows and unicorns appear.

My fear is that they don't appear and the system checks the Bandwidth Limit first...

Resulting in the above.

Can you shed some light on this Rattati? Rainbows and unicorns or will Logistics players have to extreme micromanage to a level beyond OCD?

EDIT: Cleaned-up/formatting.

Furthermore, the Logistics role in your spreadsheet show Equipment Slots as having 2 for Standard, 3 for Advanced, and 4 for Prototype. I will put my tinfoil hat on when I say this but, are we to believe that the Logistics class will follow that format across all racial logistics dropsuits for the upcoming rollout of Equipment Bandwidth?

And AV as a primary forte is an admirable, noble and worthwhile cause, but recognize its a narrow discipline. Combat Logistics has way more moving parts.

Maybe for the frames that have combat efficient base stats to start with, but for the Logistics class, who don't, that won't help enough.

Dear Players

Based on a lot of feedback, both from CPM, Community and previous CCP designs, one of the things we are able to conjure up is the much wanted Equipment Bandwidth feature.

* We want to fix Equipment spam to increase framerate
* We want Quality over Quantity Equipment gameplay
* We want a solid Logistics progression at using Equipment
* We want Logistics to excel at using Equipment, and other roles less so
* We want Equipment diversity

Now, we want to get your feedback as early as possible, so chime in. But here are some clarifications of intent.

Equipment Limit
The main design is primarily based off of Drones in EVE.

Every dropsuit has a built-in Equipment Controller, which has a certain Bandwidth Capacity (in MHz). That Controller Bandwidth is used to manage deployed Equipment through constant signaling.

Each piece of deployed Equipment has a different Bandwidth Cost (or Usage). Note that all Equipment still has the same current limitations of GÇPdeployed per typeGÇ£.

Obviously Logistics are made for this purpose, and some Logistics more than others.

In the case of deployed Equipment Bandwidth exceeding the Players current Bandwidth, deployed Equipment self-destructs instantly, in the sequence it was deployed. In the attached spreadsheet, we show an example of such a scenario.

This feature will allow proper Logistics to excel at their deployment role, while keeping Assaults & Commandos relatively useful and Scouts will be diminished in capability as they were never meant to be a king of deployables, the additional slot was added for the Cloak Field.

Quality over Quantity
We want players to use the best Equipment they have at their disposal. ThatGÇÖs why Bandwidth will not increase with item tiers. We also have the capability and intent to reduce Scan Profile with tiers, so Advanced and Complex gear is not as easy to scan. However, this also allows us to increase the carried amount, for rapid redeployment. Spawn first Nanohive and Drop Uplink at point A, redeploy to Objective B, spawn second Nanohive and Drop Uplink, and so on. Stay out of trouble and you wonGÇÖt need to switch or restock for quite some time.

Progression
Logistics will have the, by far, the highest Bandwidth, with Caldari and Amarr the highest. We may need to reword or change some of their role bonuses. Bandwith progression will follow the Equipment slot progression so a Logistics player can almost always use their full allotment of deployable Equipment.

Logistics vs other Dropsuits
One of the key aspects of this proposal is that all Equipment is tied to the active Dropsuit of the Player. Switch from a suit with a high Bandwidth to another suit with lower Bandwidth, and the signal is lost. This means that starting as a Logistics dropsuit, throw down as much cheap Equipment as possible, then switch into another Logistics dropsuit at a Supply Depot, repeat and then finally switch into another role, Sentinel, Scout, Assault or Commando, will not be possible anymore.

Diversity
We can now influence players to use more Proximity Mines for example, as Scan Profile will allow them to be hidden from low Precision Vehicle Players, as well as having a lower Bandwidth Cost, allowing more at the same time, without allowing more Uplinks and Nanohives. Extra damage wouldnGÇÖt hurt either.

Now, to the numbers found in this spreadsheet. Please remember that these numbers are placeholders, and are definitely up for debate so form your arguments for changes into clear and concise statements.

Please read the Example as well, it should explain the whole design clearly.

Again, your feedback and input is appreciated.

IDK how I missed this.

What won't this help and why isn't it enough for logi?

Logi don't have the combat stats to do the trade off, though they shouldn't need to do the trade off.

If people start running in coordinated squads (which is really what should be encouraged), the logi won't need to support more BW than he can carry. I don't really understand your problem with the idea.

SO, new idea.

I am already a declared fan of Cross' proposed equipment revamp, the one Shayz is talking about, I see it reinforcing Logistics (rightfully) as THE equipment use role and while it will have some adverse effects on certain playstyles it doesn't outright nullify others the way BW does.

I am against BW in its entirety, because at it's core it address SPAM (very worthwhile endeavour) but as a collateral cost it also completely eliminates certain Combat Logistics gameplay (which I oppose).


SO, since SPAM is the problem AND evidently switching usage of a Logi suit is the method, why not institute some code that tracks the SPAMming actions themselves and once the algorithm recognizes the spammer it a) kicks their ass out of the match completely b) insta-pops ALL equipment they've deployed c) deducts fully from their wallet all associated suit and fitting costs including the frame they were attampting to switch into and d) ALSO calculates up to that point in the match how many SP they would have received and deducts it from their current available SP pool! If their current available is 0 or less than what they would have gotten then they go negative until they generate proper WP to balance the deficit.


SO, we already know CCP is more than capable to track player action vs. game result (FW friendlyfire negative points, vehicle driving and acceleration cues moving vehicles around etc.) and script appropriate reponses for the cues.
Script a piece of code that when it sees [drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-SWITCH OR SUICIDE-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-SWITCH] all in one particular area it frikin' kicks that ass to the curb and leaves a nice fat CCP bootprint on it.

CCP Glinda, now that she's no longer in denial about equipment spamming and the inherent lag it produces, can track and calculate roughly how much equipment it takes, set a worthwhile time limit to the "drop drop drop" element and quantify the algorithm/coding so it can't be broken by [drop-drop-drop-drop-(x action, say squatting down or firing a weapon)-SWITCH-drop-drop...] but still allows for active LOGISTICS which can be very much drop-drop-drop sometimes.

Playtesting would be required. Analytics on existing and predicted Logistics use play metrics would be required. Coding would be required. BUT, this is the **** being done anyway to institute BW already and if composed correctly PENALIZES SPAMMERS without victimizing gameplayers.

I'm all for growth, balancing and improvement and neccessary changes, especially those that cut down or eliminate exploitation. I'm not for the monthly Calvin and Hobbes comicstrip "New Rule!" method of addressing issues.



btw, I am at work again (if I'm going to spend time doing game design, I'm getting paid dude) so if it takes me a bit to respond to responses that's what's up.

*douses self in gasoline*
Flame On!

How much trial and error is involved in ANY aspect of game design? That it's needed (though worthwhile metrics analytics reduces it significantly) isn't justification for immediate proposal dismissal. And, done properly which is completely within CCP devteam/codeing capability, what other issues does it create? And for whom, exactly? Logis? We're already getting the screwjob-hammer under BW as it is. I for one will be way more tolerant of a reasonable time period of "working out the kinks" on something like this since once those kinks are gone, the SPAM problem is handled AND legit gameplay overall isn't affected. Unlike BW, which will require the same trial-and-error-kink-fixing and once it's done, completely negates certain worthwhile gameplay.

Which worthwhile gameplay, specifically, are you speaking of?

Position creation and reinforcement concurrent with active squad supply and replenishment, both for Anti-Infantry and Anti-Vehicle contexts.

I will add a 4th too, about Logistics play. There is a rampant school of thought that Logis belong anchored to heavies keeping beams on them, feeding them ammo and when they die, if they ask, reviving them. I do not attend this school. I am very effective at its techniques, top-caliber PC proven against PC teams NO ONE wanted to challenge, but do not come from that school. I am an understudy of Sun Tzu's School of Upholstery. Specifically a student and practitioner of "Holding Down the Pillow". Here, in DUST, that means that while yes, I am absolutley committed to supporting my corpmate fatties and everyone else in my squad and team, I also am constantly engaged in Logistically ensuring that squad and team can keep control of the areas we want. Sometimes that does mean leaving my heavies with some hives to keep them warm, and trotting off to plant a minefield so tanks don't just barrell right in on us or another squad, setting a link/hive set for another group to spawn etc. This sort of thing is Team Support facilitated by Map Control through Tactical Combat Logistics work . It isn't easy, or a huge WP farm which is why not too many people do it. And the particulars of it change every match, depending on what sorts of opposition we face. And as the enemies adapt to overcome, I adapt to overcome.
This methodology is why I am one of the few people rarely trapped behind a redline, and when the random skirm I'm in has my blueberries trapped I can get them out (sometimes. It is warfare after all, and there's little accounting for classic lack of wherewithal, mine or the blues) This methodology, while as adaptable as I am and am willing to be, will be seriously negatively impacted by BW limitations. That seriously negatively impacts what drew me HARD to this game in the first place, the Field Strategy aspect and the available tools to execute.
I'm all for limiting SPAM, I hate to limit playstyle too, yes, admittedly, especially, part of mine .

SO, new idea.

I am already a declared fan of Cross' proposed equipment revamp, the one Shayz is talking about, I see it reinforcing Logistics (rightfully) as THE equipment use role and while it will have some adverse effects on certain playstyles it doesn't outright nullify others the way BW does.

I am against BW in its entirety, because at it's core it address SPAM (very worthwhile endeavour) but as a collateral cost it also completely eliminates certain Combat Logistics gameplay (which I oppose).


SO, since SPAM is the problem AND evidently switching usage of a Logi suit is the method, why not institute some code that tracks the SPAMming actions themselves and once the algorithm recognizes the spammer it a) kicks their ass out of the match completely b) insta-pops ALL equipment they've deployed c) deducts fully from their wallet all associated suit and fitting costs including the frame they were attampting to switch into and d) ALSO calculates up to that point in the match how many SP they would have received and deducts it from their current available SP pool! If their current available is 0 or less than what they would have gotten then they go negative until they generate proper WP to balance the deficit.


SO, we already know CCP is more than capable to track player action vs. game result (FW friendlyfire negative points, vehicle driving and acceleration cues moving vehicles around etc.) and script appropriate reponses for the cues.
Script a piece of code that when it sees [drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-SWITCH OR SUICIDE-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-drop-SWITCH] all in one particular area it frikin' kicks that ass to the curb and leaves a nice fat CCP bootprint on it.

CCP Glinda, now that she's no longer in denial about equipment spamming and the inherent lag it produces, can track and calculate roughly how much equipment it takes, set a worthwhile time limit to the "drop drop drop" element and quantify the algorithm/coding so it can't be broken by [drop-drop-drop-drop-(x action, say squatting down or firing a weapon)-SWITCH-drop-drop...] but still allows for active LOGISTICS which can be very much drop-drop-drop sometimes.

Playtesting would be required. Analytics on existing and predicted Logistics use play metrics would be required. Coding would be required. BUT, this is the **** being done anyway to institute BW already and if composed correctly PENALIZES SPAMMERS without victimizing gameplayers.

I'm all for growth, balancing and improvement and neccessary changes, especially those that cut down or eliminate exploitation. I'm not for the monthly Calvin and Hobbes comicstrip "New Rule!" method of addressing issues.



btw, I am at work again (if I'm going to spend time doing game design, I'm getting paid dude) so if it takes me a bit to respond to responses that's what's up.

*douses self in gasoline*
Flame On!

The idea (yours) as proposed saps HP from suits already gimped HP side, with no equitable buffs to ewar, movement or weapons use. TLDR: We're already sitting ducks largely, with little to no offensive or defensive capabilities and to equip BW mods will inhibit our ability to make our already meager for expected conditions base stats better even more limited.

BW will be of critical concern especially for Logis since ALL of our gameactions within our "maximized" discipline (support) will be constantly under the throttling of BW limits, as the BW idea as proposed stands. Except the ones who live inside the rears of heavies. Those guys dgaf.

So even though I specifically state that "Logis shouldn't need to do the trade off" you're still saying that they should?

I mean, really? Your opposition to this makes me think that you're an equipment spammer yourself.

The idea I proposed is a workaround for non-Logis to have the option to field more equipment at the expense of tank, it isn't intended to be something to allow Logis to uberspam equipment. Those that do choose to make that decision, well, they can suffer with the abysmal tank then.

I'm saying that to facilitate actual Combat Logistics we will.
And no, I'm not a spammer. I'm a fully invested, 100% DS Upgrades fully protoed in 3 of the 4 Logistics suits, with my 4th not far off, PC vetted, open-beta vet LOGI. A Logi who understands Strategically what it takes to take, hold and reinforce the MAP, not just feed ammo and lash on a heavy.

My tank is abysmal (like most Logis) already especially my fits for PC (usually in the 4-500 total hp range. Which is where BW extension as a module doesn't sit well with me. You know who would like that? The spammer looking to spam, switch, and never switch back.

Alright so you're superlogi? Is that what you're saying? You want the ability to OMA all of your teams logi abilities?

I've been a logi since my day one (Mordus), I know what it takes to support my squad and what you're describing is not that. You're describing someone who wants to be superlogi, responsible for all of the equipment for your entire team.

Where did I say it would be a module? I never said that, I was proposing that it be possible to trade tank for added bandwidth. The idea as proposed would allow for someone to swap for a spawn to another dropsuit while allowing their equipment to remain (so it didn't hobble their team).

Also, I'm curious, did you really take Dropsuit Upgrades to 5?

There's no place like Logic , John, so yeah, CCP Glinda's going on tour.

And to paraphrase someone, somewhere, just dismissing an idea outright without saying why or showing how it's otherwise unreasonable or unworkable really just makes the dissmisser appear....dumb or something....