|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 9 post(s) |
Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
398
|
Posted - 2014.11.18 13:51:00 -
[1] - Quote
A couple points about some of this.
Scouts with two slots aka the scout logi: This is rarely used to deploy equipment at logistic levels. They will still use a rep tool and needles just as well as any non minmatar logi, or the same with uplinks with any non amarr logi. I don't see any change here. The only deployable they spam are R.Es, which has its own major issues.
Quality: Then there must be a decrease in high tier equipment prices. Proto equiment, especially nano hives are tremendously expensive both in terms of PG/CPU and isk.
Logis vs other suits/ bandwidth: Be carefull of shoehorning players specced into logis into one single role. If i say deploy with my amarr logi and put down links, get killed, and my buddy's crying for backup. If i choose anything other than an amarr logi, I lose all of the equipment i spent a good deal of time and isk to deploy and put down, and now we look at at redeploying from the redline. Heaven forbid you switch out to a heavy, all the equipment brought dissapears.
Equipment spam isn't cheap equippment being thrown down, its about lots of high tier equipment and suits being switched out at a supply depot.
Diversity and proximity mines Proximity mines are already electronically invisible to vehicles unless the vehicle equip an active scanner. There are no high or low precision vehicle players because active scanners to not increase in precision by tier, they only increase in duration. The scanner is a direct defensive counter to proximities, i don't understand the need to kill the counter, unless pilots and tankers are goin to get higher precision for our scanners with tiers, its an unessecary AV buff.
MUST List bandwidth in fittings screen No point in fitting something i cannot deploy.
Possible unintendned side efffects One of the last remaining tasks for a ADS is clear out enemy links placed on roofs tops. Making these invisible to pasive scans (by extension vehicles) is going to make it a lot tougher to kill hem, and strafing attack run i use vs uplinks is dead. Currently I use first person view, line up with the uplink icon from as far away a possibly make a diving pass adjusting for the uplink/hive icon, hit what i can and flee the AV. Switching to Fly over roof, stop hover, look around the roof for glow, launch a couple missiles afterburn away. I think Breaking Stuff can accurately explain what happens to dropships who stop and hover over spawn points.
tl.dr Having a diverse range in suits will mostly likey be killed with this patch, the benifits for investing in an amarr or caldari logi is outweighed by the idea that changing suits after death means not only do you lose your deployment bonus, isk, but anything you used the suit for. Scout logi still the same. RE Scouts + Equipment or cloak still the same, AV buff, Amarr and caldari logi more useless than before, diversit nerf, and having more equipment deployable means situations like the gallente research facillity will be much worse off as long as the spam logi remains alive.
I think its an interesting shakeup, but the more i read about it, the worse it gets.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
|
Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
398
|
Posted - 2014.11.18 14:05:00 -
[2] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:Can the Sentinel be given the same band width as an Assault, even though the Sentinel does not have an equipment slot?
In Pub matches were no one is dropping Uplinks, I am sometimes forced to switch to another fit to place some uplinks. Once that is done I spawn in again in my preferred Sentinel fit after dying or finding a Supply Depot.
If the Sentinel has no bandwidth I will be stuck playing a suit that has bandwidth in these situations, because my team needs an uplink or they will be red-lined.
Exactly. The idea that if you want uplinks or ammo around "not only you must be a amarr or caldari Logi, you must only be these logis and anytime you are not one of these logis all of your stuff will die"
Why would i want to restrict myself to just these suits every match? The example given only works out in the Gal facility, otherwise i do want my friend who threw down some uplinks to change suits to fight at the point because we need him there.
I do want to be flexible enough to say "right, we formed a good battle line with hives and links but the red are pushing, i'll repawn as a heavy to hold tight, or an assualt/commando to hit em from range, or a scout to flank" without having to choose between perma running one suit to have any sort of equipment available to the team.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
|
Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
398
|
Posted - 2014.11.18 14:24:00 -
[3] - Quote
Another point that came to mind, it will be very hard to deploy rooftop uplinks, because once the campers repawn, there links go as well. No more roof top uplink/nano hive support.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
|
Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
399
|
Posted - 2014.11.18 15:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Fox Gaden wrote:John Psi wrote:It's very simple - the equipment running from any suit should not live longer this suit. Suit die or refitted - equipment DOWN. So the roll of a Logi should be to cower in a corner once all their equipment is deployed? Nono, as long as you respawn in a Logi again, they stay up.
This right here is a massive problem. If i want to redploy i can only choose a logi suit, or be penalized for bringing ina logi suit in the first place.
Scenario: Run in with amarr logi. Drop links. Fight some more killed by heavy.
I cannot pick a Scout to out flank it, or a min scout to run around and hack. Can't pick another heavy to defend the spawn area. Can't pick assault or commando to push onward.
My uplinks will be destroyed if I spawn in anything but a logi, thus defeating the initial purpose of bringing uplinks to begin with, so i can respawn with my squad in a good, safe location.
Flexibility will be fine for any other suit, switching an assault to a commando, a scout to heavy, etc. The only suit/players to be penalized for being flexible are amarr and caldari logis to a large extent, to a lessre extent any other logi. The message to them is "you had better not change suits or else your bonus, isk, and SP investment = zero".
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
|
Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
401
|
Posted - 2014.11.18 16:46:00 -
[5] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote: Yes, you made a decision to sacrifice one advantage for another, or you can choose to not do that. That's kind of the point.
For a scout yes, its which peice of quipment do i carry while i'm slaying. A scouts bonus isn't tied to equippment save a cloak.
For any player running a logi, you have to sacrifice every other suit your specced into just to keep uplinks/nanohives up. The changes drastically restrict anybody running a logi to one suit.
Any player not running deployables can switch between a scout, heavy, logi, assault, commando.
Any amarr logi can only run amarr logi, and lose everything if he spawns anything other but an amarr logi.
What has been taken into consideration to negate this?
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
|
Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
401
|
Posted - 2014.11.18 17:35:00 -
[6] - Quote
Quote:Zatara Rought wrote:Apothecary Za'ki wrote:
Yeah no, I disagree...but if you go spawn in as a heavy..yeah all dat logi equipment say bye bye.
this dosnt matter.. its just stupid... if equipment were to expire when a logi died (which is goddamned often due to being slow/low ehp/yellow will just make EVERYONE persecute logi even more meaning NO ONE even die hard logi like myself would want to play logi anymore. If you spawn back in a logi suit...your equipment should persist from the previous life. if you spawn in an assault...equipment from your previous logi life should pop until you get down to your current suits allotted bandwidth.
What this proposal is designed to make pretty much the same as losing equipment when you die, except the small caveat that if you stick with a logi suit no matter what they stay alive.
It give Logistic players a false choice between remaining in the same suit no matter what is happening or adapting to the battle and throw everything they brought with them in garbage.
Scouts, assaults, commandos and heavies aren't being presented with this dilemma, so all they see it as is an over all reduction in equipment that they don't deploy or bring with them for individual use
I see it as inflicting a severe penalty on logis or anyone who doesn't have just one suit, and finally rendering the amarrand caldari logi in thier current state as obsolete. Kill all the amarr/caldari logis when they finally change into a slayer fit to deal with heavies scouts assaults and commandos, all the equipment on the map dies with them.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
|
Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
403
|
Posted - 2014.11.18 19:18:00 -
[7] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Tesfa Alem wrote:CCP Rattati wrote: Yes, you made a decision to sacrifice one advantage for another, or you can choose to not do that. That's kind of the point.
For a scout yes, its which peice of quipment do i carry while i'm slaying. A scouts bonus isn't tied to equippment save a cloak. For any player running a logi, you have to sacrifice every other suit your specced into just to keep uplinks/nanohives up. The changes drastically restrict anybody running a logi to one suit. Any player not running deployables can switch between a scout, heavy, logi, assault, commando. Any amarr logi can only run amarr logi, and lose everything if he spawns anything other but an amarr logi. What has been taken into consideration to negate this? We can switch to a scout, heavy, log, assault and commando while giving up the strengths and weaknesses of our previous suit for the strengths and weaknesses of a new suit. Logis are no different, their strength being a lot of equipment, weakness being general combat ability.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
|
Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
404
|
Posted - 2014.11.18 20:10:00 -
[8] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:
With respect Fox being suck playing a suit with bandwidth if you want to have equipment deployed at any given level is exactly the point.
I understand that this is the,entire point, i'm just explaining why i believe its a bad point to make.
To me, its akin to either deleting every fit in my inventory to run unplinks and hives, or deleteing all my uplinks and hives suits to run the other fits in my inventory.
Cross your a Logi, i invite you and everyone else who are so inclined to play test it in Faction Warefare. Bring out your equipment, and every time you want to change suit types, put down equipment , or respawn in different type go back and shoot each and every uplink and hive you put down. Great tactical value i'm sure.
I can imagine the coms now
"why don't we have uplinks at the point? Did you spawn in a heavy"
"sorry dude they were rushing the point so i ju-"
"Never mind! Jesus, okay regroup at the redline. Next time just stay in you amarr logi suit. One more thing"
"what?"
"dont drop nano hives again. Just come back in with a rep tool and an injector, don't bother with anything else;"
Sounds like fun....at least i can always fall back on being pilot....oh wait.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
|
Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
410
|
Posted - 2014.11.19 06:30:00 -
[9] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote: Well, a few things about that, first the direct method described is stacked rather than objective. In the game under a BW mechanic you would not need to take the time to destroy those deployed items nor would you be facing a team free of the same mechanical constraints you are operating under.
Leaving that aside what you describe is frankly non-problematic, those players in as logi stay as logi and actually play the role as opposed to the current method of spawn once, deploy everything ditch the logi suit and play only heavy on that point defense throughout the match from then on, because really once you have already self logi'ed rep hives and uplinks why wouldn't you just play heavy on that point? And if the best way to run logi is often to not even be in logi suit for the majority of the match then what is the value/point of the suit/role?
Because i usually am the Logi. If i'm not flying, i'm droping links, resuplying ammo, and providing reps and scans. Each time I die I redploy in the suit that will give the biggest advantage for what the team needs now.
And i do mean die, because switching out at supply depots kills the bonus for my cal and amarr suits.
I'm no talking about just perma running heavy after droping a few links, its choosing the right suit for the right situation. Typical example of a match when i'm ground pounding:
Do we need links? Amarr logi: At the start to push the point and keep the best uplink spawn timers up as long as i can. Usually have to revert back to this as the match goes on and uplinks invariably gets popped.
If there my uplinks are still up and close to the point but its covered in red Heavy
Do we have a lot of heavies at the point? Does my squad need reps? (as any logi knows the answer is invariably yes) Winmatar logi
Do we need to hit the CRU or flank? Winmatar or gallente assault, winmatar or gallente scout
Does my squad need ammo? Cal logi
Do we need scans? Gal logi, or gal scout with range amps and dampeners
Need to fight a vehicle on the ground? Cal heavy forge, but most likely winmatar commando with swarms
Area denial? Winmando with an Mass driver, Amarr assault lazoor, or cal assault rail rifle
To some it seems extreme, but I'm not exaggerating, I'll link up a vid of my fittings screen/sp tree later. At each point in the match i need a well placed uplink, and i don't have to sacrifice the entire teams tactical advantages i paid for with my own isk and sp investment to play the game as freely as I want.
On certain points Cross i do agre with you. Yes there is a need to cut back on spam and run "logis." I don't like that anymore than, well, anyone. However I can't get around the idea of restricting myself to one suit.
I've given it some thought, and along with some feedback i've seen here about REs. there are a some positives. No more jihad jeeps (this is a godsend), no more rooftop forge camping, and yes i admit spam will be cut down drastically.
The change is already coming, and if theres anything i've learned as a Pilot, is that if an idea is dropped in a feedback nothing short of a full blown riot (and for Pilots even in case of one) will prevent the changes from being made.
The Amarr and caldari bonus will need a complete rework, not connected to either bandwidth or deploying equippment Forget the hives and links, if i'm going to carry both on one sut so i don't pop everything i drop, i wont have any need for a suit that specializes in either. Just a proto win logi so i can keep my reps, needle, and deploy links and hives with out the nano hives or uplinks cancelling each other out.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
|
Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
414
|
Posted - 2014.11.19 08:45:00 -
[10] - Quote
RedPencil wrote:Doshneil Antaro wrote:RedPencil wrote:RE and Prox BW are too high.
- Low down the RE BW to 2 - Low down Prox BW to 1
I agree with proxis to 1, but reducing REs is a bad idea. The point to BW is to reduce equipment spam and RE's is a persistent isue vs infantry players and is part of the spam issue. I still say (like I have since REs were introduced ) that the RE and proxy damage profiles need to be flipped. Proxis are anti-vehicle so need to hit harder than the triggered counter parts that target infantry more often than not. Like Juno Tristan said " RE frisbee technique is throw then detonate, rinse and repeat. ", also the current RE already need 4 second to detonate, so I don't think RE spam is a big issue. But the 4bw for each RE will limit the AV potential, and forget about jihad. Even with 2bw, no one has enough bw to stack 7 RE except logi.
I take back what i said befoore about BW killing the the jihad jeep, If you have a BPO logi or even a cheaply fit one then you can jihad jeep.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
|
|
Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
417
|
Posted - 2014.11.19 18:32:00 -
[11] - Quote
I made this vid to clarify what i mean by heavily restricting players to one suit. These are all the fits i have unlocked and i'll use several combinations of suit types as the match goes on.
Using one role and only role IMO, is being one - dimensional. There's nothing wrong in specializing, as long as your happy doing one thing day in day out who am I to judge? Run the same fit over and over again if thats your thing bro.
Being required to run only one type of suit fit to use your own equipment that you invested your own SP and isk into once this goes live, anyway you cut it, it sucks.
Having to convince someone to only run links or else, sucks.
The idea of relying on blueberries to not change suits and kill links, man if all i ever ran was heavy that would suck. Your gonna have a lot of fun slow jogging in from the redline, because I will quite happily destroy any red CRU I see on the field.
Since my ADS is an uplink killer you had better glitch them into a wall or something.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
|
Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
475
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 14:20:00 -
[12] - Quote
Regarding changing suits killin eq., my opinion is already clear, but BW is happening whether I or anyone else likes it or not.
Being the selfish guy I am, I can give feed back based on the suits/fits i run the most regarding equipment, the Caldari and Amarr adv logi.
Amarr Logi: Bandwidth 28
- Vizaim Flux uplink 2 x 4= 8 BW:
- Viziam Stable uplink 2 x 4= 8 BW:
- BDR-8 rep tool 0 BW
Total: 16 BW 12 BW to spare.
Caldari Logi: 28BW
- K2 nano hive 2x4=8 BW:
- Allotek 2x4=8 BW
- Wyrikomi nanite injector 0 BW
Total: 16bw, 12 BW to spare
If I change out to an assault i still keep 3 links or hives active. If I change to an Commando i keep 3 links or hives active If I change to a scout: I keep 2 links or hives active Heavy gets nothing.
Basically drop the least valuable links first, and then the good ones might stick around in your other suits as long as you dont need more ammo. My assault suits generally carries scanners so i wont be affected too much.
Swarm commandos still get to camp rooftops. (deploy two proto links, respawn with 1 proto hive)
Logis can still swtich to any suit EXCEPT a heavy and still keep most of thier deployed equipment. Heavies are going to be even more dependent on their logi brothers.
All in all, on paper it actualy looks okay.
Also, +1 on vehicle scans going up in scan precision per tier.
Also a big - 90000 to the merc who suggested reptools and scanners should cost bandwidth. I'll give Ratatti credit on killing that proposal dead.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
|
Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
483
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 20:14:00 -
[13] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:It will reinforce each suit having advantages and disadvantages.
Players bypass logi weaknesses by changing suits while enjoying the benefit of equipment spam.
It makes dedicated logis utterly unnecessary and largely superfluous. This needs to change.
I completley disagree with you here. Hives and uplinks are only two of the 4 things a logi takes responsibility for. Though i use the amarr and cal logi for deployables, I carry other equipment on them because the suits need staying power beyond just drop and forget.
The "weakness" may be in direct 1 v 1 combat, but if that's your primary usage of a logi then you're doing it wrong. There has never been a match where a dedicated logi was made superflous by equipment spammed around a supply depot.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
|
Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
483
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 21:35:00 -
[14] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Tesfa Alem wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:It will reinforce each suit having advantages and disadvantages.
Players bypass logi weaknesses by changing suits while enjoying the benefit of equipment spam.
It makes dedicated logis utterly unnecessary and largely superfluous. This needs to change. I completley disagree with you here. Hives and uplinks are only two of the 4 things a logi takes responsibility for. Though i use the amarr and cal logi for deployables, I carry other equipment on them because the suits need staying power beyond just drop and forget. The "weakness" may be in direct 1 v 1 combat, but if that's your primary usage of a logi then you're doing it wrong. There has never been a match where a dedicated logi was made superflous by equipment spammed around a supply depot. the point. It has flown over your head. Warpoint spam from uplinks and hives IS a benefit from logi suits. crap them out, swap suits, trash stays, warpoints free of effort or concern flow in. No risk, since you swapped back, you're in no danger of losing an expensive logistics fit. and since you can drop asstons of hives, why not make two fits? one to spam hives, another to cover 75% of your team's uplink limit by yourself, then swap to a useful suit and go kill people? THAT'S what I'm talking about when I say bypassing logi weaknesses. It's not tactical flexibility. it's farming.
Your reflexes were too slow. All I said was equipment spam does not make dedicated logis superflous as you claimed.
The entire scenario you bring up relies solely on control of the supply depot. You have proto forge guns, exactly what stopping you from popping that supply depot? The only one out of reach from ranged weapons in all of dust is the gallente research facillity, where this entire spam, lagfest, fiasco started. PC corps figured they could break the game doing it and here we are today. And even in there, without a dedicated logi keeping those heavies standing its extremely difficult to hold.
You're a dedicated heavy, do you always ask for nanohive "trash", uplinks "spam" from logis that you don't bring in, pay for or invest SP into? I'm sure out of principle you walk from the redline rather than to spawn in on that garbage. I am equally sure you call in a lav and drive to nearest supply depot rather than touch a spammers nanohive.
Be sure not to after this drops, make sure you don't help those guys farm WP.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
|
|
|
|