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Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 1986	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:27:00 - [121] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: John Psi wrote: Guys, Ratatti, let me explain what is happening now. In serious fights we have the following scenario: 1. At the beginning of battle HALF fighters planted in logi. 2. Equipment spam, die or refit to assaults/scouts/etc 3. No logi in a fight. Equipment Bandwidth did not save us from the problems, scenario would be: 1. At the beginning of battle ALL fighters planted with equipment fit variant. 2. Equipment spam, die or refit to simular Bandwidth suit (battle fit variant). 3. No logi in a fight. I understand that the current scenario is simple and effective. Just want to remind you that we wanna play not a Mario style game. This is why the logistics fits need a tone down in CPU/PG and a large buff in their role reduction to Equipment fittings costs. Thus no logistics fits with empty slots fit purely for combat and used only to keep their BW value high. Support logistics could use a meaningful buff, but "slayer logi" can stay dead. 0.02 ISK Cross no logi need less cost for equipment and NO NERF TO FITTINGS.. cause maybe then we can actually fit more then 4 proto tank moduals as we eat too much pg and cpu just to carry equipment.. i chalenge you to try fit as much proto on a logi suit as you can on assault or scout.. it just dosnt happen.. hell i have to use advanced on some parts just to make everything fit. [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 1 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 1904	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:30:00 - [122] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: I have to vigorously disagree with this notion. The Logistics class is defined by it's ability to use equipment, both its suit stats and it's skill bonuses (racial and role) are devoted to this throttling the use of equipment for support players such that they are unable to employ all of their slots and skill buffs - if they have already made the sacrifices in fittings to have all of those present - is a further nerf to support play which is, bluntly, already in a sub-optimal state (especially the Cal and Amarr Logistics who would be hurt most severely by the alteration you propose). I also have to further disagree with your assessment of the compact hive, it is a 'one stop shop' for personal support and as such should not be an inexpensive bandwidth option, 3 for such a hive seems entirely reasonable within the context of the placeholder numbers I have seen. I understood the issue being, too much EQ spam and improving frame rates. Limiting the amount of EQ except on logistics suits doesn't fix the spam problem. It only makes it so other suits can't utilize EQ as well as logi suits. Thats fine, logi suits need a buff. But it won't fix the spam problem. If logi can still spam the entire breadth of their EQ arsenal, then we haven't fixed any frame rate issues. The current proposal would highlight the NEED for logi support as people won't be able to spam EQ at the start and maintain that level through most of the battle. But it won't improve frame rates if we keep the current allotment. You can only carry a single compact hive, which usually provides a single "refill". Its chief utility is to the lone wolf who does not have the option/luxury of support in the heat of battle. You could make it 4 BW and it wouldn't honestly matter that much in your "one stop shop scenario". You can only have one down anyway, and it doesn't last more than about 20 seconds on most occasions. The point I didn't fully illustrate however is that I don't think its fair to lose your nanohive on a std suit if you need to throw a mine as you are refilling. You wont be able to utilize remotes nor proxy very well aka: they have more that can be placed than the stack & good luck killing anything with less than 3 proxy (the amount you start with) I understand scouts are only supposed to have "a single equipment" but that's just not the case or norm. Its impossible to fit a cloak on a std scout, so they will be using two eq. My Youtube Biomassed Podcast
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4891	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:32:00 - [123] - Quote Nonoriri ko wrote: I would like to see more hive types than just health and ammo. A hive that scans its area(inside the bubble) and relays to team. Great for choke points or objectives. A hive that allows a certain number of suit changes, like a supply depot. Best for last, a hive that links to another hive, when players on your team click on it or step on it, they teleport to the other hive. Like a "press circle to confirm" button. I think that last one would be an Uplink variant, not a Hive. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4581	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:38:00 - [124] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: its not the logi role or the equipments fault.. its the fault of stupid goddamned equipment spammers who spam equipment at supply depos and then switch to their chosen slayer suits.. (usually 50% scouts and 30% sentinels 15% assault 5% logi) BANDWIDTH LIMITS WILL KILL LOGISTICS! Do you even realize how you just contradicted yourself? This bandwidth thing has exactly one purpose: Get rid of equipment that some spammed crapped out on the way to a supply depot to switch into their sentinel suit so they can get some free WP from uplinks while having 1200 HP and an HMG. If you stay in your logi suit, your equipment stays. Switch to a sentinel it goes away. How does limiting me to LESS equipment (with the idiotic hard cap of one EQ per type) than this proposal help me in my Amarr logi suit? (p.s. Just like Cross, I've been playing logi for much longer than one year so don't bother asking) (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Lonewolf Heavy Chaotic Company 144	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:39:00 - [125] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Can the Sentinel be given the same band width as an Assault, even though the Sentinel does not have an equipment slot? In Pub matches were no one is dropping Uplinks, I am sometimes forced to switch to another fit to place some uplinks. Once that is done I spawn in again in my preferred Sentinel fit after dying or finding a Supply Depot. If the Sentinel has no bandwidth I will be stuck playing a suit that has bandwidth in these situations, because my team needs an uplink or they will be red-lined. With respect Fox being suck playing a suit with bandwidth if you want to have equipment deployed at any given level is exactly the point. There has been a lot of talk about a nerf to heavies, hmgs, or both, because of "heavy spam". However it is the current game and map meta not the class balance which feeds this proliferation of heavies. The Sentinel frame has zero equipment slots using depot/spawn swap as is currently possible gets around one of the fundamental drawbacks built into the frame and adds to the excessive proliferation of Sentinels on the field because if you can provide your own deployable support, gain scout level eWar from a friendly scout on the field, and use a LAV or DS for mobility the question effectively becomes why not use a Sentinel? The context which creates that last question needs addressed both for diversity of game play and for the preservation of the Sentinel role itself. 0.02 ISK Cross Meaning in a public match where no one is placing Drop Uplinks I canGÇÖt in good contentious play a Sentinel. Are you going to take away my ability to hack objectives next? Don't go jumping the gun now Fox. Cross has a point on that exploit. I see this happening all the time in a battle, especially when I'm in my commando hunting logis so my buddy can go hunting in his scout safely. I'll start firing on the logi and they will drop hives behind a depot where they change to a heavy fit while still taking full advantage of their hives. All of the other things Cross is mentioning, like taking advantage of scout ewar thanks to friendlies and using vehicles for mobility, are intended features. However, being able to change suits and deploy equipment then change back into a heavy is an exploit to bypass the sentinel's weakness of having no equipment. Sentinel/Commando
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4892	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:40:00 - [126] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Can the Sentinel be given the same band width as an Assault, even though the Sentinel does not have an equipment slot? In Pub matches were no one is dropping Uplinks, I am sometimes forced to switch to another fit to place some uplinks. Once that is done I spawn in again in my preferred Sentinel fit after dying or finding a Supply Depot. If the Sentinel has no bandwidth I will be stuck playing a suit that has bandwidth in these situations, because my team needs an uplink or they will be red-lined. With respect Fox being suck playing a suit with bandwidth if you want to have equipment deployed at any given level is exactly the point. There has been a lot of talk about a nerf to heavies, hmgs, or both, because of "heavy spam". However it is the current game and map meta not the class balance which feeds this proliferation of heavies. The Sentinel frame has zero equipment slots using depot/spawn swap as is currently possible gets around one of the fundamental drawbacks built into the frame and adds to the excessive proliferation of Sentinels on the field because if you can provide your own deployable support, gain scout level eWar from a friendly scout on the field, and use a LAV or DS for mobility the question effectively becomes why not use a Sentinel? The context which creates that last question needs addressed both for diversity of game play and for the preservation of the Sentinel role itself. 0.02 ISK Cross On the contrary, Heavy proliferation started when they got an inadvertent buff in 1.8 when all weapons -besides- HMGs received a 10% damage nerf and Proficiency was changed. The HMG had a really good balance in 1.7 due to the implementation of proper spread and increased rate-of-fire (which sky rocketed it's DPS) but that balance was upset when it's DPS was left alone by comparison of it's competition. Scouts as well are remarkable counters toward Heavy spam because of their low profile and incredibly high alpha damage between Shotguns and Nova Knives. This, bearing in mind that shotguns haven't changed much, Scouts did. If HMGs received a DPS nerf to compensate for what the rest of us are dealing with, I think it'd establish a good balance. More-so then heat mitigation gameplay ever will. Talking 5%, 10% at most. It's not something we couldn't undo if it wound up being problematic either but experimenting with heat mitigation every hotfix clearly isn't warranting enough of an impact. Again, as previously stated elsewhere, the problem isn't so much the one heavy as ten heavies stacking on top of one another. That is something heat mitigation will never fix. In the run-up to 1.8 I stated that the HMG should get the same damage nerf that the other Automatic weapons got. I had forgotten about that, but having been reminded of the 1.8 automatic weapon nerfs, I totally agree that an equivalent small DPS nerf to the HMG is warranted. I still think the heat changes are a good thing. The Assault role should be easy, with bonuses that make the Infantry Rifles easier to use. Every other role, including HMG sentinel, should require some player skill to master. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4892	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:46:00 - [127] - Quote Just for clarification, this change is meant to: -Nerf equipment spam. -Nerf Scouts. -Nerf Sentinels. -Nerf/Buff Amarr/Caldari Logi? Did I miss anything? How many birds are we trying to hit with this stone? Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Lonewolf Heavy Chaotic Company 144	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:48:00 - [128] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Can the Sentinel be given the same band width as an Assault, even though the Sentinel does not have an equipment slot? In Pub matches were no one is dropping Uplinks, I am sometimes forced to switch to another fit to place some uplinks. Once that is done I spawn in again in my preferred Sentinel fit after dying or finding a Supply Depot. If the Sentinel has no bandwidth I will be stuck playing a suit that has bandwidth in these situations, because my team needs an uplink or they will be red-lined. With respect Fox being suck playing a suit with bandwidth if you want to have equipment deployed at any given level is exactly the point. There has been a lot of talk about a nerf to heavies, hmgs, or both, because of "heavy spam". However it is the current game and map meta not the class balance which feeds this proliferation of heavies. The Sentinel frame has zero equipment slots using depot/spawn swap as is currently possible gets around one of the fundamental drawbacks built into the frame and adds to the excessive proliferation of Sentinels on the field because if you can provide your own deployable support, gain scout level eWar from a friendly scout on the field, and use a LAV or DS for mobility the question effectively becomes why not use a Sentinel? The context which creates that last question needs addressed both for diversity of game play and for the preservation of the Sentinel role itself. 0.02 ISK Cross On the contrary, Heavy proliferation started when they got an inadvertent buff in 1.8 when all weapons -besides- HMGs received a 10% damage nerf and Proficiency was changed. The HMG had a really good balance in 1.7 due to the implementation of proper spread and increased rate-of-fire (which sky rocketed it's DPS) but that balance was upset when it's DPS was left alone by comparison of it's competition. Scouts as well are remarkable counters toward Heavy spam because of their low profile and incredibly high alpha damage between Shotguns and Nova Knives. This, bearing in mind that shotguns haven't changed much, Scouts did. If HMGs received a DPS nerf to compensate for what the rest of us are dealing with, I think it'd establish a good balance. More-so then heat mitigation gameplay ever will. Talking 5%, 10% at most. It's not something we couldn't undo if it wound up being problematic either but experimenting with heat mitigation every hotfix clearly isn't warranting enough of an impact. Again, as previously stated elsewhere, the problem isn't so much the one heavy as ten heavies stacking on top of one another. That is something heat mitigation will never fix. In the run-up to 1.8 I stated that the HMG should get the same damage nerf that the other Automatic weapons got. I had forgotten about that, but having been reminded of the 1.8 automatic weapon nerfs, I totally agree that an equivalent small DPS nerf to the HMG is warranted. I still think the heat changes are a good thing. The Assault role should be easy, with bonuses that make the Infantry Rifles easier to use. Every other role, including HMG sentinel, should require some player skill to master. I personally am nervous about another HMG damage nerf. Since closed beta I have seen the HMG go through so many changes, and I remember when the HMG went from being OP with sharpshooter allowing you to fire halfway across a map, to day one of uprising when we were nerfed so hard I almost gave up on being a heavy. A dev said something about wanting to avoid damage changes to the HMG to keep it as intended, which was why they did the Heat buildup change, to force more players to have more skill to use the HMG. Sentinel/Commando
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 7259	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:51:00 - [129] - Quote Lonewolf Heavy wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Can the Sentinel be given the same band width as an Assault, even though the Sentinel does not have an equipment slot? In Pub matches were no one is dropping Uplinks, I am sometimes forced to switch to another fit to place some uplinks. Once that is done I spawn in again in my preferred Sentinel fit after dying or finding a Supply Depot. If the Sentinel has no bandwidth I will be stuck playing a suit that has bandwidth in these situations, because my team needs an uplink or they will be red-lined. With respect Fox being suck playing a suit with bandwidth if you want to have equipment deployed at any given level is exactly the point. There has been a lot of talk about a nerf to heavies, hmgs, or both, because of "heavy spam". However it is the current game and map meta not the class balance which feeds this proliferation of heavies. The Sentinel frame has zero equipment slots using depot/spawn swap as is currently possible gets around one of the fundamental drawbacks built into the frame and adds to the excessive proliferation of Sentinels on the field because if you can provide your own deployable support, gain scout level eWar from a friendly scout on the field, and use a LAV or DS for mobility the question effectively becomes why not use a Sentinel? The context which creates that last question needs addressed both for diversity of game play and for the preservation of the Sentinel role itself. 0.02 ISK Cross On the contrary, Heavy proliferation started when they got an inadvertent buff in 1.8 when all weapons -besides- HMGs received a 10% damage nerf and Proficiency was changed. The HMG had a really good balance in 1.7 due to the implementation of proper spread and increased rate-of-fire (which sky rocketed it's DPS) but that balance was upset when it's DPS was left alone by comparison of it's competition. Scouts as well are remarkable counters toward Heavy spam because of their low profile and incredibly high alpha damage between Shotguns and Nova Knives. This, bearing in mind that shotguns haven't changed much, Scouts did. If HMGs received a DPS nerf to compensate for what the rest of us are dealing with, I think it'd establish a good balance. More-so then heat mitigation gameplay ever will. Talking 5%, 10% at most. It's not something we couldn't undo if it wound up being problematic either but experimenting with heat mitigation every hotfix clearly isn't warranting enough of an impact. Again, as previously stated elsewhere, the problem isn't so much the one heavy as ten heavies stacking on top of one another. That is something heat mitigation will never fix. In the run-up to 1.8 I stated that the HMG should get the same damage nerf that the other Automatic weapons got. I had forgotten about that, but having been reminded of the 1.8 automatic weapon nerfs, I totally agree that an equivalent small DPS nerf to the HMG is warranted. I still think the heat changes are a good thing. The Assault role should be easy, with bonuses that make the Infantry Rifles easier to use. Every other role, including HMG sentinel, should require some player skill to master. I personally am nervous about another HMG damage nerf. Since closed beta I have seen the HMG go through so many changes, and I remember when the HMG went from being OP with sharpshooter allowing you to fire halfway across a map, to day one of uprising when we were nerfed so hard I almost gave up on being a heavy. A dev said something about wanting to avoid damage changes to the HMG to keep it as intended, which was why they did the Heat buildup change, to force more players to have more skill to use the HMG. S'why we're only seeing one or two heavies in the Gallente Research Facility sockets x3 /sarcasm Long-Term Roadmap This Player is Against Proto BPOs
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4892	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:52:00 - [130] - Quote MrShooter01 wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Logistics vs other Dropsuits One of the key aspects of this proposal is that all Equipment is tied to the active Dropsuit of the Player. Switch from a suit with a high Bandwidth to another suit with lower Bandwidth, and the signal is lost. This means that starting as a Logistics dropsuit, throw down as much cheap Equipment as possible, then switch into another Logistics dropsuit at a Supply Depot, repeat and then finally switch into another role, Sentinel, Scout, Assault or Commando, will not be possible anymore. One thing I'd like to point out here is that currently, equipment bonuses seem to disappear when you die. This is most noticeable as the Amarr logi, if you try to respawn on your own links you will see the spawn timer is the base length of the drop uplink without the amarr logi bonus. This change might have the unintended effect of destroying some (all?) of the logi's equipment when they die, regardless of if they respawn in the same suit Just want to make sure you tested this to make sure suit bandwidth actually persists while respawning since the amarr logi bonus doesn't If that happens it would happen to every suit, not just the one with the Bandwidth bonus. So I am sure testing will catch it. MrShooter01 wrote: Now, about scouts: If I'm reading the spreadsheet right, I can only toss one RE at the standard tier? That kinda sucks for vehicle hunting It'd take a lot more work to blow a tank with one RE at a time! Could I talk you into say giving the standard scouts 6 bandwidth and reducing RE cost to 2, allowing a scout to place 3 remotes while still not being able to place more than one piece of other equipment? Or perhaps RE cost to 3 and ADV scout bandwidth to 9? Throw me an explosive bone here! A very good point! If a Scout can't deploy 3 Remote Explosives at the same time that is a major AV nerf! Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.

Ku Shala The Generals 1018	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:56:00 - [131] - Quote -1 poor idea this will kill an already dead role unless you are going to increase the base hp and give all logis a sidearm. I can barley afford to run advanced assaults in pubs right now and you want a ( cal logi) 70K suit with no sidearm with scout like base stats to bring expensive equipment that explodes when I change class? wow talk about taking what was once the best suit in the game and making it 100% usless. Once a proud logi thats lost millions of isk to save stupid BB's ......... now the only way to logi is to attach a repair tool to a heavys azz or spam equipment because the most expensive suit in the game has crap stat. before all roles were introduced the logisuit was abused because it had the most slots. R.I.P Logibruz if you dont press x I cannot save you on a side note couldnt you exploit this method to maker slayer logis again....LogiCK-0 equipment fit,Logi CK-0 slayer fit same bandwidth? *-¦a+ó a+ú-Æa+äla+ä (Caldari Specialist)* Caldari Loyalist *Assault -Logistics-Sentinal-Scout-Commando Allround CK-0
Syeven Reed T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 992	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:58:00 - [132] - Quote Great change, something thats has been needed for a long time. My one grief though is that AV is going to become increasingly hard. Reasoning follows, Many people, myself included carry remotes around to kill vehicles at least 2 for an LAV and 3 for a badly tanked tank. We won't be able to do this anymore as we are going to have to detonate after the first drop, alerting the tank before we can get off the other 2. I know we have proxies but there really not that good and I'm not in that much control of the situation when using them. I have a solution which may or may not be possible (I will leave this up to your brain). Could it be like this, Assuming I'm a scout (because I always am). We can place however many remotes we like but only retaining control over one. Meaning that chain reactions would work but not separate remotes placed in separate areas. TL;DR I don't want to loose the ability to place all remotes in a bunch together. SCAN ATTEMPT PREVENTED EvE - 21 Day Trial
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3903	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:59:00 - [133] - Quote Llast 326 wrote: I really think Proxies are going to need a serious looking at after this changeGÇª Pretty rare to see them used right now. When they are in competition with Uplinks and HivesGÇª they will become rare indeed. Agree they will need to finally get their long awaited balance pass so that they can be pulled from relative obscurity. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4894	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:01:00 - [134] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Only problem I have is the scout restrictions. Generally spawn in an advanced scout with cloak and drop 2 flux uplinks. Then on next spawn I spawn with an adv scout with remotes and cloak. Now, I am ok with a nerf where I can't run around covering loads of objectives with remotes with my uplinks still up. But I think it is too much of a nerf not being able to use remotes at all with a couple of uplinks running. Give scouts the same bandwidth as assaults and there will be no problems as far I'm concerned. Scouts shouldn't be the kings of deployables, I agree, but they are a central part of our battlefield role. 2 uplinks and a remote isn't spam or game breaking in my opinion. Meh, I personally disagree. I could understand having two low profile uplinks deployed behind enemy lines to give your team an advantage but having the ability to remote an objective (or god forbid start blowing up entire squads) on top of that, as well as all the inherent bonuses that a Scout gets to general combat as it is... Doesn't seem very fair. Personally, I think Scouts need to have more of a hard-chosen fitting scheme where they have to consider their options -before- spawning and I think having reduced equipment slots would be a good way of doing that. I advocated, back in 1.8, that Scouts have two equipment just to try it out. I even said, "They've been under powered for so long, let them be OP for a month". It's been over a year now, so I think it's time we try looking at other avenues to bring them back down in balance. I tend to agree, Scouts have been doing everything well for some time now. I have been doing this since chromosome. This has nothing to do with having two equipment slots or 1.8. The fact is, deployable equipment is an important part of being a scout as it goes well with stealth and mobility. It is a major reason why the extra slot was given for the cloak. I'm not asking for more bandwidth than an assault. If you want to nerf scouts can we please focus on what is causing the problems rather than throwing the nerf bat around willy nilly. I've accepted the idea of being nerfed to only one RE plus links. I think that's enough. I agree. Placing uplinks behind enemy lines I believe is one of the ScoutGÇÖs primary roles. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4977	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:03:00 - [135] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: HMG's kill at the appropriate rate inside of their cone of death, Aeon. You run into a heavy, you're supposed to die. Period. You nerf the HMG, and it will either change this situation or it won't. Changing the situation is unacceptable, because then the HMG fails in its role as a "Wrong time wrong place mother f***er" style of weapon. If a person can run from an HMG, then the heavy has effectively lost the long-term fight. He can now be flanked and has no means of chasing the enemy. It is absolutely imperative the heavy has enough DPS to slaughter anyone who runs into him the first time it happens. The HMG is the hard counter to impatient planning and stupidity. It is not the hard counter to high ground, cover, long range attacks, or mass driver shelling. There is therefore no need to nerf it and doing so would destroy the heavy suit. And that's -exactly- the point. If a player can out-maneuver the heavy he's -supposed to die- and they have no problem with that because we ditched slower turn speeds (justifiably so) a long time ago. A Heavy can whip around just as fast as anyone else and they have enough defense to be able to react whilst getting shot at but not only that they can apply so much DPS that they can often kill the person shooting them before they go down. And yes, the HMG is a counter to mass driver shelling -because they receive a splash damage reduction-. Cover doesn't matter within optimal range because they just can hold down the trigger and walk over to you. Long range is about the only one that makes sense in that list but sentinels also have damage resistance bonuses so only a handful of weapons really apply there and it's entirely circumstantial. EVEN STILL, it's just the -one- heavy we're talking about, not a group. Let me ask you this; what is the ideal weapon a player is supposed to counter an HMG with in the short-to-mid range? Another HMG? A heavy can survive longer against mass driver shelling. That doesn't make him a hard counter to it. He still can't actually do anything about it. That would require climbing out of his hole and getting into the mass driver guys face -- something he isn't capable of without exposing himself. The HMG has no counter at short to mid range apart from a scout applying stealth and going for an instant kill with NK or a breach shotgun to the head or something. And it shouldnt have a counter, either. Most of the HMG balance lies in the suit, not the weapon. If a lighter suit had a weapon that could counter such an overwhelming DPS force at that range in a straight up fight, then why would you deal with the drawbacks of the heavy suit? It's my fault FA exists. Direct your rage to me.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3903	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:07:00 - [136] - Quote Jadek Menaheim wrote: Cross Atu wrote: With respect Fox being suck playing a suit with bandwidth if you want to have equipment deployed at any given level is exactly the point. My concerns cross is the frustration factor of having bandwidth combined with the personal orbital suggestion Rattati gave. Again, this is a nerf to logis that have a role bonus tied to deployables. Amarr isn't bad in terms of fitting diversity with the additional sidearm, however that's not the case for the Caldari Logi. If anything I would suggest adding a side arm to caldari logis to help improve gameplay experience/variety for being locked into a role in order to maintain your equipment. If the BW changes were to take effect on the current baseline with no intent to buff the logi races or consider their frames/role then I would completely agree this could be a grave issue, let me reaffirm however that a rework of the logistics/support role is actively in process and BW as well as the proposed eWar changes etc are being considered in that effort. Please feel free to drop by the thread for that and contribute o7 See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Booby Tuesdays Tuesdays With Boobies 986	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:07:00 - [137] - Quote I'm liking what I see thus far. These numbers will have little effect on how I play my roles, I will just need to be more careful when switching to my AV fit to avoid losing a key uplink or remote from my Logi fit. As far as how I play my Logi, the only suit that will be effected is my Sever Uplink Spam fit. The only folks I see QQing so far seem to be equipment spammers. I need to run some more numbers, but so far so good. If this is the case, what is to stop a player from switching between all four Logi suits to spam gear? Is this limit suit based, or player based? If it is suit based, then I could still spam all the live long day if I wanted to. Question for Rattati, do we have evidence that limiting the spam will actually increase frame rate and overall game performance? No Shave November Applies To Your Face Only!!!
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3903	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:09:00 - [138] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: Second thought: can we have drones pleaseeeeeee, legit question is it possible to implement personal drones? Overall I like this idea, +1 Last I heard drones have a performance cost equal to that of players in game so they are not really a viable option (over all a higher baseline performance and beyond that potentially more players per team would both be higher priorities I believe) Maybe take away from installations or the vehicle cap if they're deployed and just give them stupidly high PG/CPU costs..? I think an anti-personnel drone in/near an objective is a lot more effective than an installation that gets blown up at the start of the match for free points. I'm speaking of in game performance costs to the engine/PS3 hardware load, not costs such as ISK or CPU/PG. As I understand it, currently drones as an in match asset are simply not very feasible within Dusts iteration of the UE3 engine. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4896	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:09:00 - [139] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: And that's -exactly- the point. If a player can out-maneuver the heavy he's -supposed to die- and they have no problem with that because we ditched slower turn speeds (justifiably so) a long time ago. A Heavy can whip around just as fast as anyone else and they have enough defense to be able to react whilst getting shot at but not only that they can apply so much DPS that they can often kill the person shooting them before they go down. Actually the HMG has a slower turn speed than any other weapon. It was the reduced turn speed on the suit that was removed. If a Sentinel switches from his HMG to his sidearm he can both turn and sprint faster. That being said, the turn speed on an HMG is only slightly slower than the turn speed on a Shotgun. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 404	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:10:00 - [140] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: With respect Fox being suck playing a suit with bandwidth if you want to have equipment deployed at any given level is exactly the point. I understand that this is the,entire point, i'm just explaining why i believe its a bad point to make. To me, its akin to either deleting every fit in my inventory to run unplinks and hives, or deleteing all my uplinks and hives suits to run the other fits in my inventory. Cross your a Logi, i invite you and everyone else who are so inclined to play test it in Faction Warefare. Bring out your equipment, and every time you want to change suit types, put down equipment , or respawn in different type go back and shoot each and every uplink and hive you put down. Great tactical value i'm sure. I can imagine the coms now "why don't we have uplinks at the point? Did you spawn in a heavy" "sorry dude they were rushing the point so i ju-" "Never mind! Jesus, okay regroup at the redline. Next time just stay in you amarr logi suit. One more thing" "what?" "dont drop nano hives again. Just come back in with a rep tool and an injector, don't bother with anything else;" Sounds like fun....at least i can always fall back on being pilot....oh wait. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.

Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4692	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:11:00 - [141] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: With respect Fox being suck playing a suit with bandwidth if you want to have equipment deployed at any given level is exactly the point. There has been a lot of talk about a nerf to heavies, hmgs, or both, because of "heavy spam". However it is the current game and map meta not the class balance which feeds this proliferation of heavies. The Sentinel frame has zero equipment slots using depot/spawn swap as is currently possible gets around one of the fundamental drawbacks built into the frame and adds to the excessive proliferation of Sentinels on the field because if you can provide your own deployable support, gain scout level eWar from a friendly scout on the field, and use a LAV or DS for mobility the question effectively becomes why not use a Sentinel? The context which creates that last question needs addressed both for diversity of game play and for the preservation of the Sentinel role itself. 0.02 ISK Cross On the contrary, Heavy proliferation started when they got an inadvertent buff in 1.8 when all weapons -besides- HMGs received a 10% damage nerf and Proficiency was changed. The HMG had a really good balance in 1.7 due to the implementation of proper spread and increased rate-of-fire (which sky rocketed it's DPS) but that balance was upset when it's DPS was left alone by comparison of it's competition. If HMGs received a DPS nerf to compensate for what the rest of us are dealing with, I think it'd establish a good balance. More-so then heat mitigation gameplay ever will. Talking 5%, 10% at most. It's not something we couldn't undo if it wound up being problematic either but experimenting with heat mitigation every hotfix clearly isn't warranting enough of an impact. Again, as previously stated elsewhere, the problem isn't so much the one heavy as ten heavies stacking on top of one another. That is something heat mitigation will never fix. THIS HMG's were much more balanced in 1.7 because of damage mods...proficiency...and the increased damage rifles did. We NEED to nerf the HMG back a bit. B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3906	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:19:00 - [142] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: ps...I would like to see how this works with Logi suit / role updates that may be coming up. Bandwidth, equip slots, suit specs, and role/racial bonus all starts to connect in this discussion. SOONtm No, seriously I'm working on this actively right now (first day off in awhile) and hope to have something more meaningful in the near term. Taking into account both the eWar changes and the BW system has given me a bit to adapt too when collating current community feedback on the subject. Shame we don't have someone so adamant about Assaults and Commandos x3 I'm trying to work on those too! But my time is somewhat finite and my knowledge of both of those roles (tho I do dabble) is more limited in scope. Relying heavily on the community to really step up on those threads (which has been happening esp for the commando) so that something valuable can be delivered. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3156	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:20:00 - [143] - Quote The bandwidth upgrade module should exist under Dropsuit Electronics skill. EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet".
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3906	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:21:00 - [144] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: I am against the idea of bandwidth. Not only does it limit what suits I can use, but it hurts Cal and Amarr logos harder since they focus on deployables. They will certainly need a rework, but they already do and it is in process so this will simply be another aspect to consider in that effort. Alena Ventrallis wrote: Why not just decrease uplink spawn count and increase amount carried? This means you can spam them as long as you are constantly deploying them since they'll run out much faster. Actually the CPM has been in favor of this idea for a long time and hopes to still see it in game one way or the other regardless of what happens with the BW system. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 7261	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:22:00 - [145] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: A heavy can survive longer against mass driver shelling. That doesn't make him a hard counter to it. He still can't actually do anything about it. That would require climbing out of his hole and getting into the mass driver guys face -- something he isn't capable of without exposing himself. The HMG has no counter at short to mid range apart from a scout applying stealth and going for an instant kill with NK or a breach shotgun to the head or something. And it shouldnt have a counter, either. Most of the HMG balance lies in the suit, not the weapon. If a lighter suit had a weapon that could counter such an overwhelming DPS force at that range in a straight up fight, then why would you deal with the drawbacks of the heavy suit? Ah yes, the age old "It shouldn't have a counter because = HMG". That logic got us into this mess in the first place. How do you counter five heavies chilling on an objective that can't be orbital'd? BY DEPLOYING FIVE HEAVIES YOURSELF! =D Seriously, this is -not- fun gameplay and it never was. I'll counter your logic with reverse psychology: If a lighter suit -can't- deal overwhelming DPS force at that range in a straight up fight, then why would you use anything OTHER than a heavy? Cross Atu wrote: I'm speaking of in game performance costs to the engine/PS3 hardware load, not costs such as ISK or CPU/PG. As I understand it, currently drones as an in match asset are simply not very feasible within Dusts iteration of the UE3 engine. That's what I was saying as well, though. I'm not talking about ISK or Fitting costs I'm talking about removing some of the more useless aspects of the game (certain installations within/near the redline) to free up performance but it doesn't really matter, I didn't expect that Drones would ever become a thing in Dust anyway. Long-Term Roadmap This Player is Against Proto BPOs
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4897	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:24:00 - [146] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: I am against the idea of bandwidth. Not only does it limit what suits I can use, but it hurts Cal and Amarr logos harder since they focus on deployables. Why not just decrease uplink spawn count and increase amount carried? This means you can spam them as long as you are constantly deploying them since they'll run out much faster. when i run proto i have reptool and injector but also uplinks (max of 3 active) and hives (max of 3 active) but yes like you said.. for cal and amarr it would basically kill the caldari logi once and for all.. where as amarr logis only redemption is sidearm and highest ehp of the 4 races logi suits. proto cal logi would mostly be injector-hive-hive.. now the hives coudl be the varients whcihc get up to 4 active.. they need the ammo.. they need the triage.. with out all those hives on their suit they are done for.. for amarr.. injector uplinks uplinks.. its not the logi role or the equipments fault.. its the fault of stupid goddamned equipment spammers who spam equipment at supply depos and then switch to their chosen slayer suits.. (usually 50% scouts and 30% sentinels 15% assault 5% logi) BANDWIDTH LIMITS WILL KILL LOGISTICS! I believe that the idea was to increase the amount carried and the amount deployable for higher tier equipment, and having Bandwidth control how many you can deploy. So Amarr Logi could go with Injector, Repair Tool, Uplink, and use all their Bandwidth deploying that one type of Uplink. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3906	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:31:00 - [147] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Cross Atu wrote: John Psi wrote: Guys, Ratatti, let me explain what is happening now. In serious fights we have the following scenario: 1. At the beginning of battle HALF fighters planted in logi. 2. Equipment spam, die or refit to assaults/scouts/etc 3. No logi in a fight. Equipment Bandwidth did not save us from the problems, scenario would be: 1. At the beginning of battle ALL fighters planted with equipment fit variant. 2. Equipment spam, die or refit to simular Bandwidth suit (battle fit variant). 3. No logi in a fight. I understand that the current scenario is simple and effective. Just want to remind you that we wanna play not a Mario style game. This is why the logistics fits need a tone down in CPU/PG and a large buff in their role reduction to Equipment fittings costs. Thus no logistics fits with empty slots fit purely for combat and used only to keep their BW value high. Support logistics could use a meaningful buff, but "slayer logi" can stay dead. 0.02 ISK Cross no its not.. logi can hardly fit 3/5th proto equipment/moduals where scouts/sents/assaults can easly fit like 90% + proto what you would be doing is essentially nerfing logi EHP even further then it already is.. and as a min logi being the lowest ehp of them all having like 300+ ehp less then an assault and being stupidly slow because we fit ehp just leaves us to be cannon fodder for anyone adn everyone with MLT or higher gear.. and im sick of it. do you even logi? i doubt it. try being a logi for a year and just see your chosen roll receive nerf after nerf after proxy-nerf... and not recive a single godamned buff at all! Do I even logi? I have been a logi as my main role since closed beta, check the posting history if you'd like. I was one of the guys who still used Repair Tools for my team when they were giving zero War Points. I have been a logi player for years now (oh wow, have I really played Dust for years, I may have an issue... lol) and I have max skills in every bit of equipment, support skill and logistics suit of every race so yes I know what it is like to run a logistics suit, I have around 20 fits for them saved right now Also, as I have stated repeatedly here and elsewhere the role needs an overall buff, I stand by that, just as I stand by the idea that these buffs come in a form which does not contribute to people using the logi frame as an "assault lite" by running it 'naked' of equipment. Should a logi be able to survive in battle? Of course because anyone who is always dead contributes nothing, but should there be pure combat fits being deployed via logi frames just so someone can exploit their way into FotM "greatness" Of course NOT. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4978	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:33:00 - [148] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: THIS HMG's were much more balanced in 1.7 because of damage mods...proficiency...and the increased damage rifles did. We NEED to nerf the HMG back a bit. No, we dont. If they did any less they would be pointless. Aeon Amadi wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: A heavy can survive longer against mass driver shelling. That doesn't make him a hard counter to it. He still can't actually do anything about it. That would require climbing out of his hole and getting into the mass driver guys face -- something he isn't capable of without exposing himself. The HMG has no counter at short to mid range apart from a scout applying stealth and going for an instant kill with NK or a breach shotgun to the head or something. And it shouldnt have a counter, either. Most of the HMG balance lies in the suit, not the weapon. If a lighter suit had a weapon that could counter such an overwhelming DPS force at that range in a straight up fight, then why would you deal with the drawbacks of the heavy suit? Ah yes, the age old "It shouldn't have a counter because = HMG". That logic got us into this mess in the first place. How do you counter five heavies chilling on an objective that can't be orbital'd? BY DEPLOYING FIVE HEAVIES YOURSELF! =D Seriously, this is -not- fun gameplay and it never was. I'll counter your logic with reverse psychology: If a lighter suit -can't- deal overwhelming DPS force at that range in a straight up fight, then why would you use anything OTHER than a heavy? Cross Atu wrote: I'm speaking of in game performance costs to the engine/PS3 hardware load, not costs such as ISK or CPU/PG. As I understand it, currently drones as an in match asset are simply not very feasible within Dusts iteration of the UE3 engine. That's what I was saying as well, though. I'm not talking about ISK or Fitting costs I'm talking about removing some of the more useless aspects of the game (certain installations within/near the redline) to free up performance but it doesn't really matter, I didn't expect that Drones would ever become a thing in Dust anyway. I don't consider what we're in to be a mess. HMG's are doing exactly what they need to be doing. They have weaknesses which are not based around specific weaponry. Types of cover render them worthless (plated guard rails for example). High ground renders them useless. Distance renders them useless. Surprise attacks with high alpha weaponry renders them useless. There are a lot of ways to counter the HMG that are not based around weaponry rock-paper-scissors. Thats low level thinking and bad game design. It's my fault FA exists. Direct your rage to me.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2191	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:34:00 - [149] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: I am against the idea of bandwidth. Not only does it limit what suits I can use, but it hurts Cal and Amarr logos harder since they focus on deployables. They will certainly need a rework, but they already do and it is in process so this will simply be another aspect to consider in that effort. Alena Ventrallis wrote: Why not just decrease uplink spawn count and increase amount carried? This means you can spam them as long as you are constantly deploying them since they'll run out much faster. Actually the CPM has been in favor of this idea for a long time and hopes to still see it in game one way or the other regardless of what happens with the BW system. Here's an idea. Suppose we have a bandwidth of 10. Each uplink and nanohive costs 1 bandwidth. I can carry buttons of each. Why can't I pick and choose how to deploy my equipment? I can do 10 hives, or 10 links. Or 5 hives and 5 links. Or 7 hives and 3 links. Or 4 hives and 6 links. So instead of a hard cap on uplinks and a separate hard cap on hives, let bandwidth be the ONLY hard cap, and we as logis decide how we fill up that bandwidth. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
shaman oga The Dunwich Horror 3228	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:38:00 - [150] - Quote Another thing i would like, even if heavies do not have equipments they should have a bandwidth of 4 on all tiers. Maybe consider giving triage hives more bandwidth like 5 instead of 4, drop a hive for some ammo is more than legit, punish this behaviour would be too much imo.



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