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Aeon Amadi
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
7257
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Posted - 2014.11.18 14:31:00 -
[1] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Only problem I have is the scout restrictions.
Generally spawn in an advanced scout with cloak and drop 2 flux uplinks. Then on next spawn I spawn with an adv scout with remotes and cloak.
Now, I am ok with a nerf where I can't run around covering loads of objectives with remotes with my uplinks still up. But I think it is too much of a nerf not being able to use remotes at all with a couple of uplinks running.
Give scouts the same bandwidth as assaults and there will be no problems as far I'm concerned.
Scouts shouldn't be the kings of deployables, I agree, but they are a central part of our battlefield role. 2 uplinks and a remote isn't spam or game breaking in my opinion.
Meh, I personally disagree. I could understand having two low profile uplinks deployed behind enemy lines to give your team an advantage but having the ability to remote an objective (or god forbid start blowing up entire squads) on top of that, as well as all the inherent bonuses that a Scout gets to general combat as it is... Doesn't seem very fair. Personally, I think Scouts need to have more of a hard-chosen fitting scheme where they have to consider their options -before- spawning and I think having reduced equipment slots would be a good way of doing that.
I advocated, back in 1.8, that Scouts have two equipment just to try it out. I even said, "They've been under powered for so long, let them be OP for a month". It's been over a year now, so I think it's time we try looking at other avenues to bring them back down in balance.
Long-Term Roadmap
This Player is Against Proto BPOs
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Aeon Amadi
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
7258
|
Posted - 2014.11.18 18:31:00 -
[2] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:Second thought: can we have drones pleaseeeeeee, legit question is it possible to implement personal drones?
Overall I like this idea, +1 Last I heard drones have a performance cost equal to that of players in game so they are not really a viable option (over all a higher baseline performance and beyond that potentially more players per team would both be higher priorities I believe)
Maybe take away from installations or the vehicle cap if they're deployed and just give them stupidly high PG/CPU costs..? I think an anti-personnel drone in/near an objective is a lot more effective than an installation that gets blown up at the start of the match for free points.
Long-Term Roadmap
This Player is Against Proto BPOs
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Aeon Amadi
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
7258
|
Posted - 2014.11.18 18:36:00 -
[3] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Fox Gaden wrote:Can the Sentinel be given the same band width as an Assault, even though the Sentinel does not have an equipment slot?
In Pub matches were no one is dropping Uplinks, I am sometimes forced to switch to another fit to place some uplinks. Once that is done I spawn in again in my preferred Sentinel fit after dying or finding a Supply Depot.
If the Sentinel has no bandwidth I will be stuck playing a suit that has bandwidth in these situations, because my team needs an uplink or they will be red-lined.
With respect Fox being suck playing a suit with bandwidth if you want to have equipment deployed at any given level is exactly the point. There has been a lot of talk about a nerf to heavies, hmgs, or both, because of "heavy spam". However it is the current game and map meta not the class balance which feeds this proliferation of heavies. The Sentinel frame has zero equipment slots using depot/spawn swap as is currently possible gets around one of the fundamental drawbacks built into the frame and adds to the excessive proliferation of Sentinels on the field because if you can provide your own deployable support, gain scout level eWar from a friendly scout on the field, and use a LAV or DS for mobility the question effectively becomes why not use a Sentinel?The context which creates that last question needs addressed both for diversity of game play and for the preservation of the Sentinel role itself. 0.02 ISK Cross
On the contrary, Heavy proliferation started when they got an inadvertent buff in 1.8 when all weapons -besides- HMGs received a 10% damage nerf and Proficiency was changed. The HMG had a really good balance in 1.7 due to the implementation of proper spread and increased rate-of-fire (which sky rocketed it's DPS) but that balance was upset when it's DPS was left alone by comparison of it's competition.
Scouts as well are remarkable counters toward Heavy spam because of their low profile and incredibly high alpha damage between Shotguns and Nova Knives. This, bearing in mind that shotguns haven't changed much, Scouts did.
If HMGs received a DPS nerf to compensate for what the rest of us are dealing with, I think it'd establish a good balance. More-so then heat mitigation gameplay ever will. Talking 5%, 10% at most. It's not something we couldn't undo if it wound up being problematic either but experimenting with heat mitigation every hotfix clearly isn't warranting enough of an impact. Again, as previously stated elsewhere, the problem isn't so much the one heavy as ten heavies stacking on top of one another. That is something heat mitigation will never fix.
Long-Term Roadmap
This Player is Against Proto BPOs
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Aeon Amadi
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
7258
|
Posted - 2014.11.18 18:56:00 -
[4] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:HMG's kill at the appropriate rate inside of their cone of death, Aeon. You run into a heavy, you're supposed to die. Period. You nerf the HMG, and it will either change this situation or it won't. Changing the situation is unacceptable, because then the HMG fails in its role as a "Wrong time wrong place mother f***er" style of weapon.
If a person can run from an HMG, then the heavy has effectively lost the long-term fight. He can now be flanked and has no means of chasing the enemy. It is absolutely imperative the heavy has enough DPS to slaughter anyone who runs into him the first time it happens.
The HMG is the hard counter to impatient planning and stupidity. It is not the hard counter to high ground, cover, long range attacks, or mass driver shelling.
There is therefore no need to nerf it and doing so would destroy the heavy suit.
And that's -exactly- the point. If a player can out-maneuver the heavy he's -supposed to die- and they have no problem with that because we ditched slower turn speeds (justifiably so) a long time ago. A Heavy can whip around just as fast as anyone else.
And yes, the HMG is a counter to mass driver shelling -because they receive a splash damage reduction-. Cover doesn't matter within optimal range because they just can hold down the trigger and walk over to you. Long range is about the only one that makes sense in that list but sentinels also have damage resistance bonuses so only a handful of weapons really apply there.
Let me ask you this; what is the ideal weapon a player is supposed to counter an HMG with in the short-to-mid range? Another HMG?
Long-Term Roadmap
This Player is Against Proto BPOs
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Aeon Amadi
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
7258
|
Posted - 2014.11.18 19:03:00 -
[5] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Tesfa Alem wrote:Logis vs other suits/ bandwidth: Be carefull of shoehorning players specced into logis into one single role. If i say deploy with my amarr logi and put down links, get killed, and my buddy's crying for backup. If i choose anything other than an amarr logi, I lose all of the equipment i spent a good deal of time and isk to deploy and put down, and now we look at at redeploying from the redline. Heaven forbid you switch out to a heavy, all the equipment brought dissapears.
Equipment spam isn't cheap equippment being thrown down, its about lots of high tier equipment and suits being switched out at a supply depot. If you are playing a Heavy (either mando or sent) and swap to another suit you no longer have a heavy weapon or 2x light weapons, if you are playing a scout and swap to another suit you no longer have top flight mobility and eWar, if you are playing an assault and swap to a new frame you lose the bonus to racial weapons and weapons fittings. Now if you are playing a logi and you swap into another role so you are no longer playing a logi you no longer provide that support to your squad this appropriately will include equipment deployed beyond the BW of the new role you have chosen to play at that time. This is not shoehorning players into anything, this is applying an opportunity cost.
LOL I could almost sense a begrudging feeling when you punched in 'lose the bonus to racial weapons and fittings'.
S'like, "Ahhh hell, man, that's really not that big of a loss from switching to something else..."
Long-Term Roadmap
This Player is Against Proto BPOs
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Aeon Amadi
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
7258
|
Posted - 2014.11.18 19:13:00 -
[6] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:
ps...I would like to see how this works with Logi suit / role updates that may be coming up. Bandwidth, equip slots, suit specs, and role/racial bonus all starts to connect in this discussion.
SOONtm  No, seriously I'm working on this actively right now (first day off in awhile) and hope to have something more meaningful in the near term. Taking into account both the eWar changes and the BW system has given me a bit to adapt too when collating current community feedback on the subject.
Shame we don't have someone so adamant about Assaults and Commandos x3
Long-Term Roadmap
This Player is Against Proto BPOs
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Aeon Amadi
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
7259
|
Posted - 2014.11.18 19:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
Lonewolf Heavy wrote:Fox Gaden wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Cross Atu wrote:Fox Gaden wrote:Can the Sentinel be given the same band width as an Assault, even though the Sentinel does not have an equipment slot?
In Pub matches were no one is dropping Uplinks, I am sometimes forced to switch to another fit to place some uplinks. Once that is done I spawn in again in my preferred Sentinel fit after dying or finding a Supply Depot.
If the Sentinel has no bandwidth I will be stuck playing a suit that has bandwidth in these situations, because my team needs an uplink or they will be red-lined.
With respect Fox being suck playing a suit with bandwidth if you want to have equipment deployed at any given level is exactly the point. There has been a lot of talk about a nerf to heavies, hmgs, or both, because of "heavy spam". However it is the current game and map meta not the class balance which feeds this proliferation of heavies. The Sentinel frame has zero equipment slots using depot/spawn swap as is currently possible gets around one of the fundamental drawbacks built into the frame and adds to the excessive proliferation of Sentinels on the field because if you can provide your own deployable support, gain scout level eWar from a friendly scout on the field, and use a LAV or DS for mobility the question effectively becomes why not use a Sentinel?The context which creates that last question needs addressed both for diversity of game play and for the preservation of the Sentinel role itself. 0.02 ISK Cross On the contrary, Heavy proliferation started when they got an inadvertent buff in 1.8 when all weapons -besides- HMGs received a 10% damage nerf and Proficiency was changed. The HMG had a really good balance in 1.7 due to the implementation of proper spread and increased rate-of-fire (which sky rocketed it's DPS) but that balance was upset when it's DPS was left alone by comparison of it's competition. Scouts as well are remarkable counters toward Heavy spam because of their low profile and incredibly high alpha damage between Shotguns and Nova Knives. This, bearing in mind that shotguns haven't changed much, Scouts did. If HMGs received a DPS nerf to compensate for what the rest of us are dealing with, I think it'd establish a good balance. More-so then heat mitigation gameplay ever will. Talking 5%, 10% at most. It's not something we couldn't undo if it wound up being problematic either but experimenting with heat mitigation every hotfix clearly isn't warranting enough of an impact. Again, as previously stated elsewhere, the problem isn't so much the one heavy as ten heavies stacking on top of one another. That is something heat mitigation will never fix. In the run-up to 1.8 I stated that the HMG should get the same damage nerf that the other Automatic weapons got. I had forgotten about that, but having been reminded of the 1.8 automatic weapon nerfs, I totally agree that an equivalent small DPS nerf to the HMG is warranted. I still think the heat changes are a good thing. The Assault role should be easy, with bonuses that make the Infantry Rifles easier to use. Every other role, including HMG sentinel, should require some player skill to master. I personally am nervous about another HMG damage nerf. Since closed beta I have seen the HMG go through so many changes, and I remember when the HMG went from being OP with sharpshooter allowing you to fire halfway across a map, to day one of uprising when we were nerfed so hard I almost gave up on being a heavy. A dev said something about wanting to avoid damage changes to the HMG to keep it as intended, which was why they did the Heat buildup change, to force more players to have more skill to use the HMG.
S'why we're only seeing one or two heavies in the Gallente Research Facility sockets x3 /sarcasm
Long-Term Roadmap
This Player is Against Proto BPOs
|
Aeon Amadi
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
7261
|
Posted - 2014.11.18 20:22:00 -
[8] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:
A heavy can survive longer against mass driver shelling. That doesn't make him a hard counter to it. He still can't actually do anything about it. That would require climbing out of his hole and getting into the mass driver guys face -- something he isn't capable of without exposing himself.
The HMG has no counter at short to mid range apart from a scout applying stealth and going for an instant kill with NK or a breach shotgun to the head or something. And it shouldnt have a counter, either.
Most of the HMG balance lies in the suit, not the weapon. If a lighter suit had a weapon that could counter such an overwhelming DPS force at that range in a straight up fight, then why would you deal with the drawbacks of the heavy suit?
Ah yes, the age old "It shouldn't have a counter because = HMG". That logic got us into this mess in the first place. How do you counter five heavies chilling on an objective that can't be orbital'd? BY DEPLOYING FIVE HEAVIES YOURSELF! =D
Seriously, this is -not- fun gameplay and it never was. I'll counter your logic with reverse psychology: If a lighter suit -can't- deal overwhelming DPS force at that range in a straight up fight, then why would you use anything OTHER than a heavy?
Cross Atu wrote:
I'm speaking of in game performance costs to the engine/PS3 hardware load, not costs such as ISK or CPU/PG.
As I understand it, currently drones as an in match asset are simply not very feasible within Dusts iteration of the UE3 engine.
That's what I was saying as well, though. I'm not talking about ISK or Fitting costs I'm talking about removing some of the more useless aspects of the game (certain installations within/near the redline) to free up performance but it doesn't really matter, I didn't expect that Drones would ever become a thing in Dust anyway.
Long-Term Roadmap
This Player is Against Proto BPOs
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Aeon Amadi
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
7264
|
Posted - 2014.11.18 23:17:00 -
[9] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:Aeon, a lighter suit can use its mobility and radar superiority to achieve the correct geographical or position based advantage required to beat a heavy.
The reality is that most people in lighter suits do not. They want to run and gun, oblivious to their surroundings and twitch shoot their way to the top of the killboard like a 13 year old on redbull. Heavies stop them from doing that, and there are a lot of people with the mentality that it should be both allowed, and promoted.
It rewards physical reflexes more than the use of human intelligence. I do not find that to be good gameplay. You clearly do.
What more can be said?
Every time you argue against something, be it heavies, tanks or whatever over-powered thing it is you use at the time, you always bring up the same thing: "People just don't want to do it".
Really waters down anything you have to say.
Long-Term Roadmap
This Player is Against Proto BPOs
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