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CCP Z C C P C C P Alliance 1	Posted - 2014.05.14 07:32:00 - [1] - Quote Hello everybody, Really great to see all of the feedback on these forums. Many questions and discussions have been raised after the presentation made during Fanfest, and CCP Frame pulled together a recap of some of the main concerns you guys had. I will try to answer these in this thread! Here are some of them: Quote: What makes DUST special IS that a player with 50 million SP can still have a use for a militia Dropsuit. That ALL of those 2,000+ suits/items you have are actually useful and donGÇÖt become obsolete once you reach the next GÇ£level.GÇ¥ High SP players can squeeze higher meta modules into that militia suit and create great ISK efficient fits with it. ItGÇÖs incredibly gratifying to kill someone wearing a very expensive suit using a cheap one. The asymmetrical nature of DUST 514 is what makes the game compelling. This will remain the case in Legion, for different reasons: You will have different contracts offered to you depending on your Dropsuit Meta Level. Basically, if you have 3 fittings with a 120, 200 and 350 Metalevel, you will have access to 3 different brackets where people will have the same Metalevel range as you. So, no Dropsuit will be obsolete. You will have access to non-match made battles, so basically you can pick any Dropsuit you want. Quote: And no, looking at your old suits stacked up in your quarters doesnGÇÖt fix this. The inevitable result is to introduce an expansion with suit D that everyone works towards, and then gets bored with: i.e. the gear treadmill. People get exhausted with this kind of system and eventually move on to another game. All MMOGÇÖs with this approach to progression have declined in users over time. The only one that hasnGÇÖt is EVE, and it doesnGÇÖt use this approach. It is foolish to ignore this point. Again, the nature of Legion is to work against Gear obsolescence, so your old gear will still have an interest for you after unlocking the GÇ£nextGÇ¥ Dropsuit in your tree. You donGÇÖt have to move in a linear way (ie, by going directly to the next Dropsuit). We will offer you many side choices that will make you more efficient or have more fitting choices with your current Dropsuit. Quote: The proposed system makes it difficult to change directions if youGÇÖre deeply invested in something you donGÇÖt like. Under the system proposed you donGÇÖt unlock certain weapons until much deeper in the tree. As balancing nerfs/buffs come out (and theyGÇÖre unavoidable in a game of this nature) itGÇÖs going to make adjusting your character much more difficult. We will offer a Respec Option (which does not exist in DUST 514). More information will come down the line as the projectGÇÖs development progresses. Quote: In the current system, you can quickly start a different weapon and move on, while waiting for your weapon of choice to get fixed. I think your proposed progression system will create a lot of unnecessary friction and frustration by limiting playerGÇÖs freedom for the questionable benefit of accessibility (which can be better addressed via the UI and tutorials). If you look at the tree that I showed during the presentation, basic weapons for all classes will be available early in the progression so you will be able to try them fairly easily (or quickly if you prefer). But yes, we are making the Progression more difficult. Right now, within a couple of weeks of play, you can basically create your ultimate Fitting and never do anything else. Quote: You can have depth AND accessibility if you build the right UIs and invest the resources into making an amazing, story-based gameplay tutorial. EVEGÇÖs ISIS, and Mastery systems are excellent examples of how this can be done. I donGÇÖt necessarily agree with the EVE example, it remains a really difficult progression system to understand. Legion is not and will not be EVE, even if both games share the same universe. We have many reasons justifying that choice: we are not the same business model (subscription vs free to play), we are not talking to the same target audience (hardcore MMO players vs Online FPS Players). That isnGÇÖt to say that their progression system isnGÇÖt great and applicable to EVE GÇô only that it does not necessarily fit the game we want Project Legion to become. I think that the new system will allow both: accessibility for new users to understand, while keeping the high level complexity of mix-matching modules, weapons and Dropsuits. Quote: I suspect that your proposed system may very well draw in more players, at least initially, but it will suffer the same fate as other MMOGÇÖs using more traditional skill progression systems, and players will get bored and burn out. We offer a much deeper and varied system than almost any MMO on the market, we are just trying to make it more accessible. Please feel free to add any other questions, IGÇÖll do my best to answer them all :) Z


CCP Frame C C P C C P Alliance 2794	Posted - 2014.05.14 07:36:00 - [2] - Quote Great first post by CCP Z! Thank you guys for providing us early feedback on the topic of Progression. CCP Z will try his best to answer more questions bug give him time to read through as well. :) This thread is now going to be official way for you to give us all your feedback regarding the progression. In case you missed CCP Z's presentation from Fanfest, here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnsLCz10CVU Thank you! CCP Frame

TrueXer0z DUST University Ivy League 535	Posted - 2014.05.14 07:41:00 - [3] - Quote +1 for the openly shared information. Seeing a lot of good things regarding communication more recently from CCP. Keep it up. Still..Legion is a long way away. I can't honestly allow my hope to be brought up. Time will tell if these words are something that can be trusted once again. Edit: Also, as feedback is concerned, all the community can give is suggestions and interests. How can we give feedback on a game that doesn't technically exist yet? I myself look forward to a Closed/Open Beta. Director, Dust University @TrueXer0z *Kevall Longstride - CPM1*
Aoena Rays Bragian Order Amarr Empire 453	Posted - 2014.05.14 07:47:00 - [4] - Quote Thank you CCP Z! This has been very cool :) Loving the discussion that is happening right now on this topic even though we are very early clearly in terms of this specific game/project/whatever it is and its core features. Keep it up! CCP Rouge confirms your stuff will be moved from DUST to LEGION. Stop stupid biomassing.
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 2634	Posted - 2014.05.14 07:47:00 - [5] - Quote Thanks for the post CCP Z, however this is not a discussion, this is you motivating your ideas towards the community. Spectral-¦s Rant #1: Why Common/Uncommon/Rare is not good enough https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2158804#post2158804 Spectral-¦s Rant #2: Accessible skill tree without dumbing it down https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2158807#post2158807 This message was brought to you by the PC master race.
Luther Mandrix WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 218	Posted - 2014.05.14 07:48:00 - [6] - Quote Can whatever system you put in place be change after launch ,like the 3 different trees we had from beta till now in Dust?
Aoena Rays Bragian Order Amarr Empire 455	Posted - 2014.05.14 07:49:00 - [7] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: Thanks for the post CCP Z, however this is not a discussion, this is you motivating your ideas towards the community. Spectral-¦s Rant #1: Why Common/Uncommon/Rare is not good enough https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2158804#post2158804 Spectral-¦s Rant #2: Accessible skill tree without dumbing it down https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2158807#post2158807 You are aware that linking other threads is not the purpose of this thread? It is about discussing current vision of progression that he presented at Fanfest. Not reading rant threads (which are against forum rules btw) :D CCP Rouge confirms your stuff will be moved from DUST to LEGION. Stop stupid biomassing.
Luther Mandrix WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 218	Posted - 2014.05.14 07:50:00 - [8] - Quote With a PC game can't you do both the new easy progression and keep the lvl 5 system so we can just get what we want since we know what we want.

CCP Blowout C C P C C P Alliance 364	Posted - 2014.05.14 07:53:00 - [9] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: Thanks for the post CCP Z, however this is not a discussion, this is you motivating your ideas towards the community. Spectral-¦s Rant #1: Why Common/Uncommon/Rare is not good enough https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2158804#post2158804 Spectral-¦s Rant #2: Accessible skill tree without dumbing it down https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2158807#post2158807 Hey, I didn't link you here just so you could link back to your other threads This will become a discussion when you start discussing things. I think CCP Z has done a great job for a first post here and a lot of new info has come out. Get involved, Spectral Clone!

Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 2635	Posted - 2014.05.14 07:56:00 - [10] - Quote CCP Blowout wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: Thanks for the post CCP Z, however this is not a discussion, this is you motivating your ideas towards the community. Spectral-¦s Rant #1: Why Common/Uncommon/Rare is not good enough https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2158804#post2158804 Spectral-¦s Rant #2: Accessible skill tree without dumbing it down https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2158807#post2158807 Hey, I didn't link you here just so you could link back to your other threads This will become a discussion when you start discussing things. I think CCP Z has done a great job for a first post here and a lot of new info has come out. Get involved, Spectral Clone! I will be engaged for sure. Nobody here wants a new CoD/WoW MMOFPS in New Eden. I-¦m not saying this to be evil towards CCP Z or anyone at CCP. This message was brought to you by the PC master race.

Luther Mandrix WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 218	Posted - 2014.05.14 07:56:00 - [11] - Quote Hey I am asking questions.
Jonny D Buelle Mors Effera 104	Posted - 2014.05.14 07:57:00 - [12] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: CCP Blowout wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: Thanks for the post CCP Z, however this is not a discussion, this is you motivating your ideas towards the community. Spectral-¦s Rant #1: Why Common/Uncommon/Rare is not good enough https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2158804#post2158804 Spectral-¦s Rant #2: Accessible skill tree without dumbing it down https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2158807#post2158807 Hey, I didn't link you here just so you could link back to your other threads This will become a discussion when you start discussing things. I think CCP Z has done a great job for a first post here and a lot of new info has come out. Get involved, Spectral Clone! I will be engaged for sure. Nobody here wants a new CoD/WoW MMOFPS in New Eden. I-¦m not saying this to be evil towards CCP Z or anyone at CCP. I agree, I don't want to see a CoD FPS morphed with WoW MMO. Come Join the War
Luther Mandrix WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 218	Posted - 2014.05.14 08:00:00 - [13] - Quote Are the weapons of each dropsuit tree race specific as Gallentee have Assault rifle but no scrambler or rail rifle?
Luther Mandrix WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 218	Posted - 2014.05.14 08:03:00 - [14] - Quote Will electronics and engineering skills still that bring those numbers as cpu and pg still be in the game?
Luther Mandrix WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 218	Posted - 2014.05.14 08:04:00 - [15] - Quote Note how about you delete the post that are not asking questions you can moderate the thread.
I-Shayz-I I-----I 3380	Posted - 2014.05.14 08:05:00 - [16] - Quote Back on topic guys... I really like the idea you have for the removal of the 5 level node system...but how will you implement passive skills and bonuses? For example, each variant of the Plasma Rifle will have its own node, but will there be extra nodes elsewhere for upgrading the reload/dispersion/ammo capacity? What about passive skills like electronics/engineering that increase dropsuit cpu/pg? Will they now be separate nodes for each extra bonus, or do you have something else in mind? 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
TrueXer0z DUST University Ivy League 535	Posted - 2014.05.14 08:06:00 - [17] - Quote The biggest obstacle you guys still face as far as progression in Eve Legion is to get the project Green Lit. Without that there is not really much discussion to be had. Until the project is a reality and we know without a doubt that the game will be produced then all we can do is speculate. Some simple suggestions to keep in mind as far as the progression of the game itself. Be very careful how you integrate the Legion economy with Eve Online. Even if the isk from Dust 514 is brought over it is a spec of sand on the beach compared to Eve's robust flow of isk. Legion should be able to stand on its own economy without having to adhere to Eve pilots. If not, pilots will take advantage of the market before it can even establish itself and mercs will be slaves to the whims of player who are just waiting to take advantage of a fresh market. As for progression in terms of an individual player...Until we as the players can get our hands on a beta version of the game and poke around they current model of the skill tree that has been presented. Everything is purely speculation as I said before. We just won't KNOW until that point. Get the game approved for production, get a working beta out to the players, then and only then can the real feedback begin. Director, Dust University @TrueXer0z *Kevall Longstride - CPM1*

CCP Saberwing C C P C C P Alliance 4598	Posted - 2014.05.14 08:06:00 - [18] - Quote Also, I recommend keeping this discussion to that of a "high-level". Discussing specific attributes (such as the exact PG/CPU values of certain things) is probably too granular at this point. CCP Z is currently working on re-vamping the entire Skill Tree and overall progression within Project Legion. CCP Saberwing // DUST 514 Community Manager // @kanafchian

Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 2638	Posted - 2014.05.14 08:08:00 - [19] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: Also, I recommend keeping this discussion to that of a "high-level". Discussing specific attributes (such as the exact PG/CPU values of certain things) is probably too granular at this point. CCP Z is currently working on re-vamping the entire Skill Tree and overall progression within Project Legion. I would want to know why the current skill system could not be a base for EVE Legion with a UI overlay guiding players into roles? Has a investigation of this been done? This message was brought to you by the PC master race.
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 2638	Posted - 2014.05.14 08:11:00 - [20] - Quote Also, why do you answer only the questions that fit into your vision, and not others? Is this taught to you when you start working in CCP? This message was brought to you by the PC master race.

TrueXer0z DUST University Ivy League 535	Posted - 2014.05.14 08:11:00 - [21] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Back on topic guys... I really like the idea you have for the removal of the 5 level node system...but how will you implement passive skills and bonuses? For example, each variant of the Plasma Rifle will have its own node, but will there be extra nodes elsewhere for upgrading the reload/dispersion/ammo capacity? What about passive skills like electronics/engineering that increase dropsuit cpu/pg? Will they now be separate nodes for each extra bonus, or do you have something else in mind? +1 Edit: Yes you guys want to create something unique from what we know about the Eve Online skill system, but sometimes trying to be overly unique can hurt more then help. Director, Dust University @TrueXer0z *Kevall Longstride - CPM1*
Cyrius Li-Moody 0uter.Heaven 5332	Posted - 2014.05.14 08:12:00 - [22] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: Also, I recommend keeping this discussion to that of a "high-level". Discussing specific attributes (such as the exact PG/CPU values of certain things) is probably too granular at this point. CCP Z is currently working on re-vamping the entire Skill Tree and overall progression within Project Legion. Numbers aren't important. Their location on the tree is what is important. Honestly talks of progression are kind of moot if the eve style fitting/customization portion of this game changes. We're basing our knowledge of our known and used system of customization. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
Sete Clifton PSU GHOST SYNDICATE DARKSTAR ARMY 421	Posted - 2014.05.14 08:13:00 - [23] - Quote Personally, it would be nice to see some kind of visual/graphical representation of the new progression system (both skills and items). I know there is the fanfest presentation, but I'm talking more about how it will specifically work. It's sort of hard for me to fully grasp the intricacies of this system, which in turn makes it difficult to discuss the vision as a whole. I fully get though that this is still pretty early, so a lot of that information probably doesn't even exist yet.
Leeroy Gannarsein Shining Flame Amarr Empire 72	Posted - 2014.05.14 08:15:00 - [24] - Quote CCP Z wrote: This will remain the case in Legion, for different reasons: You will have different contracts offered to you depending on your Dropsuit Meta Level. Basically, if you have 3 fittings with a 120, 200 and 350 Metalevel, you will have access to 3 different brackets where people will have the same Metalevel range as you. So, no Dropsuit will be obsolete. You will have access to non-match made battles, so basically you can pick any Dropsuit you want. I don't think that quite addresses the concern the player posted, unless I'm misreading your comment. The value of Militia suits (and to a greater extent, BPOs) is twofold; one, they allow me to grind ISK for more expensive suits, which is, and I appreciate this, something you're trying to do away with. But the second is the fact that no matter how hard I try I'm not going to go ISK negative in my sub-10k suit. That opens up quite a few tactical ploys that aren't effective in more expensive suits, like the infamous Jihad Jeep (I mean, who jeeps in proto?) or other actively suicidal ploys, often involving heavy suits and HMGs or light frames, shotguns and REs. I'm worried that matchmaking based on suit meta level will take away some of the tactical diversity DUST offers. As a personal anecdote to illustrate what I mean, I'm currently skilling up Caldari Scout. I should have enough SP for level 3 when I get home, but in the meantime I've been using the STD suit. The suit is 6500ISK, and it makes a profit in every single match, and it's effective; I've kept a KDR of about 2 throughout most of my matches, discarding outliers, which is a small amount less than my normal KDR of 2.5-3. But the price of the suit allows me to have terrible, terrible games in the pursuit of entertainment; one match I had yesterday I went 18/17. Much of the other team in that match (like, more than half) was in prototype scout suits that much, and I'd estimate about half my kills were ADV/PRO suits. It's a very satisfying feeling when I come to the killboard at the end of the game and know that I destroyed more than five times the amount of ISK I lost, even with respect to my enormous deaths total. MY ACTUAL NAME IS LORHAK It would seem like wisdom, but for the warning in my heart... VOTE 1 CCP BLOWOUT

CCP Blowout C C P C C P Alliance 367	Posted - 2014.05.14 08:19:00 - [25] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: Also, why do you answer only the questions that fit into your vision, and not others? Is this taught to you when you start working in CCP? What? This accusatory tone is probably not the best way to go about having your questions answered. Don't make me unlike the like I gave you in the PC gaming thread. Ask a constructive question and it will hopefully be answered eventually. CCP Z answered some specific questions brought to him by CCP Frame based on specific feedback from forum users - there is no reason why your questions will not be answered in time as well.

Heinz Doofenshertz BetaMax. 701	Posted - 2014.05.14 08:20:00 - [26] - Quote CCP Z wrote: We will offer a Respec Option (which does not exist in DUST 514). More information will come down the line as the projectGÇÖs development progresses. While I agree that in some games a Respec option is a good thing. as you may get to a point in the game where all the choices you have made are completely obsolete or bad. In New Eden no choice should ever be made lightly, nor should they be easily changed. As no spent skill is every really wasted, it might not be useful right now, but you may run into a situation later on where you'll need it and wow I already have that skill. New Eden is very much a place of choices, however, making a choice needs to have weight as it does now. I play Logi, and Assault, if I spend skill points into a heavy tree to test it out and decide I don't like how it plays fine. but I shouldn't be able to just undo those choices. There are limited occasons I would say respecs ok. The end of the NPE, because you just finished learning how to play and probably made bad choices before learning how important choices are. When major changes to the skill system are made, IE you removed 15 skills I had, refunding those points I'm ok with. Making it so that I decide I don't like the skills I have paying 5 bucks and being able to completely redo my entire tree smacks all the choices in the face, and then hampers me in my ability to use the new gear I just got, because I have not properly progressed thru the tree learning how this style plays. which means I might also not like it. I know many people are used to this being an option in other games, but it does not really fit with New Eden. yes it makes it a bit harder for some, and makes others think they are trapped with bad choices, but this is because they didn't understand the system in the first place and don't understand why it is that way. If these are addressed early on in the NPE, like having people pick certain skills, explaining that choices are important and that, as I suggested above they can reassign them once they finish, but afterwards their choices both with their skills and their trigger pulls are important, and needed to be treated that way. Dust514 Stats, Have you updated today? I do maths, and sit in a corner.
Luther Mandrix WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 219	Posted - 2014.05.14 08:21:00 - [27] - Quote CCP Blowout wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: Also, why do you answer only the questions that fit into your vision, and not others? Is this taught to you when you start working in CCP? What? This accusatory tone is probably not the best way to go about having your questions answered. Don't make me unlike the like I gave you in the PC gaming thread. Ask a constructive question and it will hopefully be answered eventually. CCP Z answered some specific questions brought to him by CCP Frame based on specific feedback from forum users - there is no reason why your questions will not be answered in time as well. Good Sir please answer one of the few questions I have ask on this thread ,With all due respect.
Jonny D Buelle Mors Effera 104	Posted - 2014.05.14 08:21:00 - [28] - Quote Leeroy Gannarsein wrote: I mean, who jeeps in proto? I do when I'm drunk... or stoned... or both. Come Join the War
TrueXer0z DUST University Ivy League 535	Posted - 2014.05.14 08:24:00 - [29] - Quote Leeroy Gannarsein wrote: CCP Z wrote: This will remain the case in Legion, for different reasons: You will have different contracts offered to you depending on your Dropsuit Meta Level. Basically, if you have 3 fittings with a 120, 200 and 350 Metalevel, you will have access to 3 different brackets where people will have the same Metalevel range as you. So, no Dropsuit will be obsolete. You will have access to non-match made battles, so basically you can pick any Dropsuit you want. I don't think that quite addresses the concern the player posted, unless I'm misreading your comment. The value of Militia suits (and to a greater extent, BPOs) is twofold; one, they allow me to grind ISK for more expensive suits, which is, and I appreciate this, something you're trying to do away with. But the second is the fact that no matter how hard I try I'm not going to go ISK negative in my sub-10k suit. That opens up quite a few tactical ploys that aren't effective in more expensive suits, like the infamous Jihad Jeep (I mean, who jeeps in proto?) or other actively suicidal ploys, often involving heavy suits and HMGs or light frames, shotguns and REs. I'm worried that matchmaking based on suit meta level will take away some of the tactical diversity DUST offers. As a personal anecdote to illustrate what I mean, I'm currently skilling up Caldari Scout. I should have enough SP for level 3 when I get home, but in the meantime I've been using the STD suit. The suit is 6500ISK, and it makes a profit in every single match, and it's effective; I've kept a KDR of about 2 throughout most of my matches, discarding outliers, which is a small amount less than my normal KDR of 2.5-3. But the price of the suit allows me to have terrible, terrible games in the pursuit of entertainment; one match I had yesterday I went 18/17. Much of the other team in that match (like, more than half) was in prototype scout suits that much, and I'd estimate about half my kills were ADV/PRO suits. It's a very satisfying feeling when I come to the killboard at the end of the game and know that I destroyed more than five times the amount of ISK I lost, even with respect to my enormous deaths total. KDR in the game means next to nothing, but WP and ISK efficiency means a lot. When you can field 100k isk on the field and destroy 2 million worth of isk..it should mean something. Same with WPs. If you average 1500+ WP per match is should mean something compared to someone averaging 900-1000 WPs. The only real thing I see KDR showing is the likelyhood of a person draining clone count. But if that person is enabling the team to win by removing high value targets from the field...where is the break away? Director, Dust University @TrueXer0z *Kevall Longstride - CPM1*
Cyrius Li-Moody 0uter.Heaven 5332	Posted - 2014.05.14 08:25:00 - [30] - Quote Also... respec? I hope this will be a very limited option with some sort of drawback. With a respec option that is easily available we will be stuck in the current situation that 1.8 has left us in: a sea of scouts and heavies because everyone got respecs. People will just endlessly respec into FOTM because this game will likely not be balanced for quite some time just as Dust is not balanced. There is importance to persistence for many many reasons. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.

Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 2639	Posted - 2014.05.14 08:26:00 - [31] - Quote CCP Blowout wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: Also, why do you answer only the questions that fit into your vision, and not others? Is this taught to you when you start working in CCP? What? This accusatory tone is probably not the best way to go about having your questions answered. Don't make me unlike the like I gave you in the PC gaming thread. Ask a constructive question and it will hopefully be answered eventually. CCP Z answered some specific questions brought to him by CCP Frame based on specific feedback from forum users - there is no reason why your questions will not be answered in time as well. I-¦m trying to ask the hard questions that need to be asked a company that wants to develop the most innovative shooter ever released on a PC. This message was brought to you by the PC master race.
Jonny D Buelle Mors Effera 104	Posted - 2014.05.14 08:27:00 - [32] - Quote Heinz Doofenshertz wrote: CCP Z wrote: We will offer a Respec Option (which does not exist in DUST 514). More information will come down the line as the projectGÇÖs development progresses. While I agree that in some games a Respec option is a good thing. as you may get to a point in the game where all the choices you have made are completely obsolete or bad. In New Eden no choice should ever be made lightly, nor should they be easily changed. As no spent skill is every really wasted, it might not be useful right now, but you may run into a situation later on where you'll need it and wow I already have that skill. New Eden is very much a place of choices, however, making a choice needs to have weight as it does now. I play Logi, and Assault, if I spend skill points into a heavy tree to test it out and decide I don't like how it plays fine. but I shouldn't be able to just undo those choices. There are limited occasons I would say respecs ok. The end of the NPE, because you just finished learning how to play and probably made bad choices before learning how important choices are. When major changes to the skill system are made, IE you removed 15 skills I had, refunding those points I'm ok with. Making it so that I decide I don't like the skills I have paying 5 bucks and being able to completely redo my entire tree smacks all the choices in the face, and then hampers me in my ability to use the new gear I just got, because I have not properly progressed thru the tree learning how this style plays. which means I might also not like it. I know many people are used to this being an option in other games, but it does not really fit with New Eden. yes it makes it a bit harder for some, and makes others think they are trapped with bad choices, but this is because they didn't understand the system in the first place and don't understand why it is that way. If these are addressed early on in the NPE, like having people pick certain skills, explaining that choices are important and that, as I suggested above they can reassign them once they finish, but afterwards their choices both with their skills and their trigger pulls are important, and needed to be treated that way. I would like to point out to you that EVE does offer a variation of a respec in the form of Remapping your attributes (Wisdom, Charisma, Endurance etc.) to better suit your progression in the game. Yes it is different than a respec but it can still be considered respeccing. (source and reading on remapping https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Neural_remapping) You do make some valid points, and I agree that the respec should only be given at the end of NPE. God knows how grateful I was when 1.0 came with a full respec. I messed up massively in my first month. I think that if CCP does intend to do respecs, make it a yearly thing and even then only a partial respec. EG: Respec Weaponry, Respec Dropsuit Command etc. Come Join the War

CCP Blowout C C P C C P Alliance 371	Posted - 2014.05.14 08:28:00 - [33] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: I-¦m trying to ask the hard questions that need to be asked a company that wants to develop the most innovative shooter ever released on a PC. And that is great - we just need you to appreciate that nothing is being kept from you and that we are trying to be transparent as possible. Reasons for not answering could be: 1. CCP Z has simply not gotten around to it yet 2. We simply do not know yet, and will be revealing more when we do. 3. Your originaly question was tl;dr over in another thread somewhere and could be better addressed if posted here 4.

Kovinis Sparagas Bullet Cluster Lokun Listamenn 390	Posted - 2014.05.14 08:33:00 - [34] - Quote Welcome to forums Mr CCP Z I support EVE Legion, but the message was very badly delivered...
Grimmiers 537	Posted - 2014.05.14 08:39:00 - [35] - Quote CCP Z wrote: This will remain the case in Legion, for different reasons: You will have different contracts offered to you depending on your Dropsuit Meta Level. Basically, if you have 3 fittings with a 120, 200 and 350 Metalevel, you will have access to 3 different brackets where people will have the same Metalevel range as you. So, no Dropsuit will be obsolete. You will have access to non-match made battles, so basically you can pick any Dropsuit you want. Will there be a way to organize fits to only show up during designated gametypes like the sandbox, or planetary conquest matches? With the way metascore works, I wouldn't want my high meta suits used for pc affecting matchmaking if I just want to use mostly adv gear in pubs.
ANON Cerberus Tiny Toons 658	Posted - 2014.05.14 08:41:00 - [36] - Quote So will we still amass skillpoints to unlock skills to get better stuff right? As long as that fundamental part does not change then I am open to other changes. The only things I have heard that would be a bother are - 1. Being forced into avenues or forced to 'be a certain role' to get something I need or want. This is very un EVE like. The fact that EVE is all about customising what ever the hell you want within the games designed balance, is really great. 2. Making smoother / more understandable or even new fancy tutorials and systems is great - just do not dumb anything down for the more experienced players. Also like others have said, I would very much like to see an illustration to the new progression system that you guys at CCP are developing. I guess you are still working on designs, however any rough outline would be good to see visually at this point.
TrueXer0z DUST University Ivy League 535	Posted - 2014.05.14 08:41:00 - [37] - Quote CCP Blowout wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: I-¦m trying to ask the hard questions that need to be asked a company that wants to develop the most innovative shooter ever released on a PC. And that is great - we just need you to appreciate that nothing is being kept from you and that we are trying to be transparent as possible. Reasons for not answering could be: 1. CCP Z has simply not gotten around to it yet 2. We simply do not know yet, and will be revealing more when we do. 3. Your originaly question was tl;dr over in another thread somewhere and could be better addressed if posted here 4. Hey, instead of responding to one person, why not address some of the other posts from people. Please don't take it the wrong way, but there are others who have posts that deserve some sort of response considering they are trying to give real feedback. Not just arguing.. And, no I am not specifically talking about mine. Director, Dust University @TrueXer0z *Kevall Longstride - CPM1*

CCP Saberwing C C P C C P Alliance 4600	Posted - 2014.05.14 08:49:00 - [38] - Quote TrueXer0z wrote: Hey, instead of responding to one person, why not address some of the other posts from people. Please don't take it the wrong way, but there are others who have posts that deserve some sort of response considering they are trying to give real feedback. Not just arguing.. And, no I am not specifically talking about mine. CCP Blowout is responding to you because your comments were not particularly related to progression - we'll let CCP Z talk about that as it's his area of expertise and focus. CCP Saberwing // DUST 514 Community Manager // @kanafchian

TrueXer0z DUST University Ivy League 536	Posted - 2014.05.14 08:53:00 - [39] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: TrueXer0z wrote: Hey, instead of responding to one person, why not address some of the other posts from people. Please don't take it the wrong way, but there are others who have posts that deserve some sort of response considering they are trying to give real feedback. Not just arguing.. And, no I am not specifically talking about mine. CCP Blowout is responding to you because your comments were not particularly related to progression - we'll let CCP Z talk about that as it's his area of expertise and focus. Might wanna scroll up and look at who he is quoting and responding to. I am not Spectral Clone. Edit: although my posts are not specifically focused on CCP Z's progression tree, they do talk about why any feedback here in this thread can't really be established properly without the community being able to actually interact. All it is right now is an IDEA. Nothing tangible. Nothing that conceptually will ever see the light of day without a greenlight of the project. Not taking away from CCP Z's great attempt to communicate. Which I applaud. But, how about a real discussion on what needs to be done to make Legion a reality. Director, Dust University @TrueXer0z *Kevall Longstride - CPM1*
Sven Lindblad Algintal Core Gallente Federation 7	Posted - 2014.05.14 08:53:00 - [40] - Quote I'm still a bit worried about this system. But that's how it often is this early in developement and I'm sure we will see what workes. I sincerely hope our feedback both us forumers and the CPM be heard and not just listened to. :) You might be right that the 5 point system might be a good cut. However I would still argue that in some cases a skill could have multiple levels ranging from just 1-2 or 1-3 were applicable. It might also be a good idea to try to avoid looking at most MMO's progression systems as I feel they have often been very flawed.

Grimmiers 538	Posted - 2014.05.14 09:00:00 - [41] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Back on topic guys... I really like the idea you have for the removal of the 5 level node system...but how will you implement passive skills and bonuses? For example, each variant of the Plasma Rifle will have its own node, but will there be extra nodes elsewhere for upgrading the reload/dispersion/ammo capacity? What about passive skills like electronics/engineering that increase dropsuit cpu/pg? Will they now be separate nodes for each extra bonus, or do you have something else in mind? It looks like each equipment will have a series of upgrade nodes linked to them, but I would like to know more about this too. Would ammo capacity upgrades be for all mass driver variants or just the variant I unlocked. The best way around this for weapons would be a weapon module wheel. As for passive skills like hacking bonuses you would probably have different modules take it's place, or have it built into dropsuit variants. Video link to that part
Jonny D Buelle Mors Effera 107	Posted - 2014.05.14 09:07:00 - [42] - Quote Sven Lindblad wrote: I'm still a bit worried about this system. But that's how it often is this early in developement and I'm sure we will see what workes. I sincerely hope our feedback both us forumers and the CPM be heard and not just listened to. :) You might be right that the 5 point system might be a good cut. However I would still argue that in some cases a skill could have multiple levels ranging from just 1-2 or 1-3 were applicable. I'm on the opposite side of the fence when it comes to removing the 5 point system. I find the 5 point system makes the game stand out amongst others when it comes to obtaining gear and improving your suit. However I think the removal of the 5 point system was due to people not really understanding what they were buying. How about instead of removing it, we improve it by adding a tooltip each time you scroll over it (instead of pushing a button to figure out what it does). The tooltip can explain in simple terms what the skill can do for you or in the options you can click a box to have complex (or expanded) tooltips. Also the description of the weapons should be changed you initially see the lore of the weapon, which is all well and good and pretty neat, but it does not tell me what the weapon does, which can be misleading. None of the descriptions at the moment tell you what they deal increased/decreased damage to. This REALLY needs to be changed. I would prefer to have a list of ALL attributes than a fancy piece of lore. Come Join the War
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 2647	Posted - 2014.05.14 09:10:00 - [43] - Quote Sven Lindblad wrote: I'm still a bit worried about this system. But that's how it often is this early in developement and I'm sure we will see what workes. I sincerely hope our feedback both us forumers and the CPM be heard and not just listened to. :) I-¦m completely against this system. It-¦s merely a copy from other "MMOs" and "FPS". I want to see something new, innovative and interesting, not a copy of others work please. This message was brought to you by the PC master race.
Mia Romani Nexus Marines 92	Posted - 2014.05.14 09:13:00 - [44] - Quote CCP Z wrote: We are not talking to the same target audience (hardcore MMO players vs Online FPS Players). I have seen this general point of view expressed by several Dust 514 developers over the years, and honestly I am a little concerned by it. While targeting people who play FPS games instead of people who play MMO games is an obvious choice for a FPS game, I am concerned that making a conscious decision to not target hardcore gamers could significantly impact the long-term longevity of the game. In EVE, there are a very small number of extremely hardcore players (referred to as enablers and instigators by CCP Seagull) who generate an enormous amount of content for their relatively casual alliance members, and they are partially responsible for the continued success of EVE Online 11 years down the track. Should content-creation tools be released for Legion, then you will need hardcore players to actually use them. Should some form of planetary conquest be released for Legion, then you will need hardcore players to rally the general player base into war. Even if they aren't the top priority, hardcore players should still be in your target demographic. Interstellar Crossroads
Aqil Aegivan The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 320	Posted - 2014.05.14 09:23:00 - [45] - Quote CCP Z wrote: You will have different contracts offered to you depending on your Dropsuit Meta Level. Basically, if you have 3 fittings with a 120, 200 and 350 Metalevel, you will have access to 3 different brackets where people will have the same Metalevel range as you. So, no Dropsuit will be obsolete. You will have access to non-match made battles, so basically you can pick any Dropsuit you want. So will we have access to all our dropsuits or will it be tiered? You claim we will be able to do two contradictory things here. CCP Z wrote: Again, the nature of Legion is to work against Gear obsolescence, so your old gear will still have an interest for you after unlocking the GÇ£nextGÇ¥ Dropsuit in your tree. You donGÇÖt have to move in a linear way (ie, by going directly to the next Dropsuit). We will offer you many side choices that will make you more efficient or have more fitting choices with your current Dropsuit. This is just saying "there's no problem" without explaining why. People with promises and no plans are why Dust514 failed. This response makes it look like Legion is headed the same way. I'm probably going to have to pre-empt the usual "we don't know how yet" thing at this point. If you don't know how you're going to do something then you don't know if you can do it. Don't sell what you don't have.
Aqil Aegivan The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 320	Posted - 2014.05.14 09:24:00 - [46] - Quote CCP Z wrote: We will offer a Respec Option (which does not exist in DUST 514). More information will come down the line as the projectGÇÖs development progresses. I cannot emphasize how bad of an idea this is. It is literally the fastest way I can imagine to effectively kill healthy meta and make this game a trivial and pointless entry in a sea of shooters. CCP Z wrote: ... we are making the Progression more difficult. Right now, within a couple of weeks of play, you can basically create your ultimate Fitting and never do anything else. That's the POINT. You do one thing well quickly but only that one thing. Delaying a persons progression is going to hit the NPE like a hammer because being "useful" under any given meta is about to get harder. BTW, if gear permanence is a goal for you why isn't being able to skill into what we want and use nothing else a feature, rather than a flaw? CCP Z wrote: I think that the new system will allow both: accessibility for new users to understand, while keeping the high level complexity of mix-matching modules, weapons and Dropsuits. Please don't pretend that straying outside of the roles you're setting up won't incur a considerable SP sink for anyone who wants to "mix and match". Please don't pretend there aren't ways of doing this that lack that sink. CCP Z wrote: We offer a much deeper and varied system than almost any MMO on the market, we are just trying to make it more accessible. Nope, you're disincentivizing emergent play in order to avoid the responsibility of explaining or balancing (or monetizing) anything more complicated than the typical role based shooter. You claim that progression is too fast because people are able to play their playstyle at max level. The only reason you would have a problem with this is if you do want a transitive gear treadmill for people to grind.
Jonny D Buelle Mors Effera 108	Posted - 2014.05.14 09:30:00 - [47] - Quote Aqil Aegivan wrote: CCP Z wrote: You will have different contracts offered to you depending on your Dropsuit Meta Level. Basically, if you have 3 fittings with a 120, 200 and 350 Metalevel, you will have access to 3 different brackets where people will have the same Metalevel range as you. So, no Dropsuit will be obsolete. You will have access to non-match made battles, so basically you can pick any Dropsuit you want. So will we have access to all our dropsuits or will it be tiered? You claim we will be able to do two contradictory things here. I think what he was talking about was two different game modes. One in which you can use any suit and another mode where you are restricted to suits based on meta level. I don't find it to be a contradiction as other games have this same concept. And I'm assuming (by the 120, 200 and 350 meta level) that dropsuits will be tiered. If they weren't why would there be a meta level to begin with? Edit: Forgot to mention that it's any suit you unlocked. Come Join the War
Zlocha The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 70	Posted - 2014.05.14 09:35:00 - [48] - Quote Pls Don't make EVE Legion a non EVE game. If you dumb it down people won't move from COD or PS2. Because why shoudl they? It needs to be different than a generic shooter/MMO. - SP progression system like it was in DUST (Altough i d leave only passive gaining) - Isk needs to meter above everything else - Tuning fits between cost and quality should always be present as a choice - Low and high skill dudes needed to be differentiated by the content available to them and their choices. - Different contents or same content with different restrictions (rules) between high, low and nullsec. - Risk vs reward should be present in every single athom of the game
Syeven Reed G0DS AM0NG MEN 636	Posted - 2014.05.14 09:44:00 - [49] - Quote Thanks for the info Z! Iv got a few questions, With weapons being tied to certain drop suit skill tree's, it that going to stop a scout from using a plasma cannon (for example) if the plasma cannon isn't in the same scout tree? Players feel, like myself that this would hinder a, 'play what you feel' game system. However I completely understand a need to get rid of heaves with light weapons! When you talked about meta levels and we now have to take our suits with us to the fight (which I love) does this mean that if I take 10 suits with me and I die as many times I won't be able to fight unless in my underwear? I've read somewhere that suits are becoming BPO's and I've read in other places that there just not going to be the main expense, whats true? If they are going the BPO route will we be able to collect them all? And if they are going to be less expensive, because then BPO's will have less of an impact on the economy could you introduce more? Last one, have you considered an experience based system? While not to copy completely games like Skyrim. A system which adds SP to a skill tree you mostly use (based on the suit)? For example when I play as an assault i gain SP in the assault tree, and when I play as a logistics I gain SP in that tree. Hope you manage to fish this one out of the others! Reed/ Twitter MajLagSpike CPM Application
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 13231	Posted - 2014.05.14 10:14:00 - [50] - Quote Quote: You will have different contracts offered to you depending on your Dropsuit Meta Level. Basically, if you have 3 fittings with a 120, 200 and 350 Metalevel, you will have access to 3 different brackets where people will have the same Metalevel range as you. So, no Dropsuit will be obsolete. You will have access to non-match made battles, so basically you can pick any Dropsuit you want. So thereGÇÖll be matches with matchmaking based on metalevel for three tiers, and matches without any matchmaking? Quote: Again, the nature of Legion is to work against Gear obsolescence, so your old gear will still have an interest for you after unlocking the GÇ£nextGÇ¥ Dropsuit in your tree. You donGÇÖt have to move in a linear way (ie, by going directly to the next Dropsuit). We will offer you many side choices that will make you more efficient or have more fitting choices with your current Dropsuit. Are those GÇÿside choicesGÇÖ actually upgrades, resulting in an increased meta level potentially pushing you over into the next meta level bracket? Quote: We will offer a Respec Option (which does not exist in DUST 514). More information will come down the line as the projectGÇÖs development progresses. While a respec option is a very popular feature I donGÇÖt think it should be a simple as GÇÿpush button, receive respecGÇÖ. I know you havenGÇÖt given us much information here but just in case you are considering a full respec option IGÇÖd like to caution against it. With a full respec option, I am concerned that the meta might become very unhealthy. Quote: I donGÇÖt necessarily agree with the EVE example, it remains a really difficult progression system to understand. Legion is not and will not be EVE, even if both games share the same universe. We have many reasons justifying that choice: we are not the same business model (subscription vs free to play), we are not talking to the same target audience (hardcore MMO players vs Online FPS Players). That isnGÇÖt to say that their progression system isnGÇÖt great and applicable to EVE GÇô only that it does not necessarily fit the game we want Project Legion to become. I think that the new system will allow both: accessibility for new users to understand, while keeping the high level complexity of mix-matching modules, weapons and Dropsuits. I actually think this is a good viewpoint to have. The EVE style progression system isn't just difficult to understand, but it was initially shoehorned into the DUST skill system giving us a lot of useless skills like Dropsuit Command 4/5. One strength of the new system I hope is that there won't be any of those rubbish skills. However, I have a few more concerns. 1. Will there be ways of improving weapons that you really invest into that aren't just item based, a la proficiency, ammo expansion, etc? 2. If there are, will they still be five level affairs? 3. One feature of the skill trees is that it seems to only allow you to unlock certain weapons going down the skill trees of certain roles, even if once unlocked that role can use them. Do you still think that's healthy? 4. You mentioned that the skill progression will become more difficult to get through. How will you ensure that it doesn't become a grindfest? You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. CCP Blowout for best dev

Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1293	Posted - 2014.05.14 10:18:00 - [51] - Quote I've never been a fan of respec's personally because I'm one of those 'your choices should matter' type of New Eden players. But if handled in a way that limits the number of times you can do it or comes at a cost, say for instance some of your Total SP, then I'll be fine with that. Right that part out of the way.... There are a number of players concerned as the loss of the current system and while I can understand that its something that they are comfortable with (I do like it myself), it really isn't a reason to stick with a system that is hindering new player take up. CCP has access to all sorts of metadata from the game that us armchair developers could only dream of having. So while there are some here that are saying that the current system isn't hindering player take-up based on personal experience, CCP know and have hard, statistical evidence that it is. And no I wasn't shown this evidence at Fanfest but CCP are convinced enough by it try something new. That fact alone should give you pause before you instantly dismiss a change in direction. That being said, I've seen some good ideas about improving the NPE that would enable CCP to stick with the current system. But these ideas while good, would have a massive hit on the Dev bandwidth and allocation of resources which could be used to better effect. And while all the ideas I've seen to retain the current progression system are good, no one has yet attempted to tackle the fundamental problem that the current system has right now. It was based and designed around the progression system of a subscription funded, passively gained SP skill system in a slower paced game. The introduction of an active element of SP, gained by playing, completely destroys the checks and balance of that system. It also makes the introduction of an algorithm based matchmaking system (like we have now) not worth the time because you can game the system. If anyone can explain a way for a subscription, time based progress system to work in a FTP FPS which uses active SP accrual, while providing a monetisation system that enables CCP to make a profit, encouraging new player take up and not needing huge resources to create an extensive NPE to explain all that, then this is your moment to shine... Assuming that no here can in fact do that and the fact that Z's system isn't set in stone and he's asking us for feedback and was during all of Fanfest, I say we take a look at his system and when more information is made available in a dev blog, we can get into the nitty gritty of it. There are still unanswered questions like how are skills going to effect weapons and modules? The common, un-common and rare loot for salvage and how does that work now that standard and advanced gear is being dropped? Slot layout in BPO suits and how those slots will be configured? Z hasn't told us much about how that will all work yet. So can we please keep the knee-jerk reactions to a minimum until all of the new progression system is known to us? As to the Common, Un-Common and rare thing, my own thinking on that is that the latter two will be salvageable only and will have much lower fitting requirements, allowing you to use them at anytime and without the skills needed. With them on the market that would be a one of the huge ISK sinks that Z says he has in place for the economy. Sorry if that has all come across as rather brusque, but as a two year vet of this game, I've seen too many design choices come to the game from Eve when they weren't the right ones for a FPS to simply dismiss new thinking because I didn't like it. CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
HowDidThatTaste Ancient Exiles. General Tso's Alliance 4949	Posted - 2014.05.14 10:48:00 - [52] - Quote Did I miss the announcement that Legion was green lit? If it is green lit what's the earliest we would see it? 1-2 years?
Leeroy Gannarsein Shining Flame Amarr Empire 75	Posted - 2014.05.14 11:04:00 - [53] - Quote TrueXer0z wrote: KDR in the game means next to nothing, but WP and ISK efficiency means a lot. When you can field 100k isk on the field and destroy 2 million worth of isk..it should mean something. Same with WPs. If you average 1500+ WP per match is should mean something compared to someone averaging 900-1000 WPs. The only real thing I see KDR showing is the likelyhood of a person draining clone count. But if that person is enabling the team to win by removing high value targets from the field...where is the break away? While to a certain (okay, significant) extent this is true, when I'm playing solo, as I have been doing for a while now, I play ambush solely. And in ambush, KDR = everything. MY ACTUAL NAME IS LORHAK It would seem like wisdom, but for the warning in my heart... CCP BLOWOUT FOR CPM1
TrueXer0z DUST University Ivy League 538	Posted - 2014.05.14 11:04:00 - [54] - Quote HowDidThatTaste wrote: Did I miss the announcement that Legion was green lit? If it is green lit what's the earliest we would see it? 1-2 years? It isn't green lit. Which is why this discussion, this forum itself even existing is very confusing. Why hype something that we are unsure even has a future at all? Director, Dust University @TrueXer0z *Kevall Longstride - CPM1*
TrueXer0z DUST University Ivy League 538	Posted - 2014.05.14 11:06:00 - [55] - Quote Leeroy Gannarsein wrote: TrueXer0z wrote: KDR in the game means next to nothing, but WP and ISK efficiency means a lot. When you can field 100k isk on the field and destroy 2 million worth of isk..it should mean something. Same with WPs. If you average 1500+ WP per match is should mean something compared to someone averaging 900-1000 WPs. The only real thing I see KDR showing is the likelyhood of a person draining clone count. But if that person is enabling the team to win by removing high value targets from the field...where is the break away? While to a certain (okay, significant) extent this is true, when I'm playing solo, as I have been doing for a while now, I play ambush solely. And in ambush, KDR = everything. Agreed, but the only competitive game mode is Skirmish. (Faction Warfare & PC.) Ambush and Domination game modes are simply for a jaded change of pace. Director, Dust University @TrueXer0z *Kevall Longstride - CPM1*

CCP Saberwing C C P C C P Alliance 4607	Posted - 2014.05.14 11:23:00 - [56] - Quote TrueXer0z wrote: HowDidThatTaste wrote: Did I miss the announcement that Legion was green lit? If it is green lit what's the earliest we would see it? 1-2 years? It isn't green lit. Which is why this discussion, this forum itself even existing is very confusing. Why hype something that we are unsure even has a future at all? Because in order to ensure it has a future, we need to get certain things right. CCP Saberwing // DUST 514 Community Manager // @kanafchian


CCP Z C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2014.05.14 11:30:00 - [57] - Quote 1st batch of answers: Quote: Can whatever system you put in place be change after launch ,like the 3 different trees we had from beta till now in Dust? We are trying to create the best system for Legion, so I would say no. Quote: With a PC game can't you do both the new easy progression and keep the lvl 5 system so we can just get what we want since we know what we want. Yes we could keep the 5 levels. From the studies and the research we made on DUST, people seems to not understand it. ThatGÇÖs why we want to remove it. Quote: Are the weapons of each dropsuit tree race specific as Gallentee have Assault rifle but no scrambler or rail rifle? No, weapon types will be linked to Role and not necessarily Race. You will end up with 2 different Rail Rifle depending on the race though. Quote: Will electronics and engineering skills still that bring those numbers as cpu and pg still be in the game? Yes Quote: how will you implement passive skills and bonuses? They will be a node to unlock (same as a new weapon, Drop Suit or module) Quote: I would want to know why the current skill system could not be a base for EVE Legion with a UI overlay guiding players into roles? Has a investigation of this been done? Re-watch the presentation, both Progression systems are not that far away from each other. Quote: Respec Discussion Respec will have a gradually increasing cost, so your choices matter Monetization and Progression Producer -CCP Z

SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 760	Posted - 2014.05.14 11:37:00 - [58] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: While a respec option is a very popular feature I donGÇÖt think it should be a simple as GÇÿpush button, receive respecGÇÖ. I know you havenGÇÖt given us much information here but just in case you are considering a full respec option IGÇÖd like to caution against it. With a full respec option, I am concerned that the meta might become very unhealthy. I like the concept of 're-spec as negative skill training'. I.e. you decide you don't want Gallente Prototype Assault Riles any more, so you flag that as de-respecializing, then the SP used to buy that drains into your unallocated SP pool slowly. So, while you can definitely recoup all the SP you spent (I originally thought about only a percentage coming back, but that penalises honest mistakes, whereas FOTM players will just suck it up), getting that SP will take time, perhaps days or weeks to become available, which puts a massive crimp on FOTM-chasing. Quote: I actually think this is a good viewpoint to have. The EVE style progression system isn't just difficult to understand, but it was initially shoehorned into the DUST skill system giving us a lot of useless skills like Dropsuit Command 4/5. One strength of the new system I hope is that there won't be any of those rubbish skills. Yeah. I got the concept of 'unlock skills' from a corpmate. Dust has a mix of skills that unlock items at different tiers, and skills that unlock as well as provide bonuses, and it's a lot more confusing than the way Eve does it. Oh, and for those who really like the 5-level thing, it's quite possible to model that using unlocks. E.g. Active scanners are a rank 2 skill, so in Dust it would be (cumulatively) 1: 12,440sp 2: 49,740sp 3: 136,800sp 4: 310,920sp 5: 621,840sp So you just model that with three skills in Legion: [Basic active scanners]: 12440sp [Advanced Active Scanners]: 124360sp [Prototype Active Scanners]: 497480sp so added together, it still costs 621840SP, but at the same level of increasing cost. Dust/Eve transfers
TrueXer0z DUST University Ivy League 542	Posted - 2014.05.14 11:38:00 - [59] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: TrueXer0z wrote: HowDidThatTaste wrote: Did I miss the announcement that Legion was green lit? If it is green lit what's the earliest we would see it? 1-2 years? It isn't green lit. Which is why this discussion, this forum itself even existing is very confusing. Why hype something that we are unsure even has a future at all? Because in order to ensure it has a future, we need to get certain things right. I agree, getting things right is a valid and noble endeavor. However, lets base our understanding of what is the reality that we live in. Through the progression tree might be something you guys are looking to change to make more comprehensive is that really what the community has been asking to be overhauled? The current skill trees are very simple to understand. my ten year old nephew plays this game and understand them completely with ever having it explained to him. I think instead of a complete overhaul of a skill tree system we should be focused on more important issues. 1, What will PvE be like? 2. Will we ever see any type of independence from the Eve industrial complex? 3. What steps are you taking to make sure the economy of Legion will be comparable with Eve and not be overwhelmed by eve market trading experts? 4. What will the endgame of competitive PvP be like? Of these few a simple understanding of how the NPE will be established in Legion would be nice. Interactive tutorials and better labeling would do wonders. I think discussions like these can be good, but can also be a large distraction from the real questions that NEED to be answered. All that being said....No green light...all of this means absolutely nothing at all. Director, Dust University @TrueXer0z *Kevall Longstride - CPM1*
Melchiah ARANeAE The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 571	Posted - 2014.05.14 12:00:00 - [60] - Quote CCP Z wrote: Quote: Respec Discussion Respec will have a gradually increasing cost, so your choices matter What kind of cost are we talking about? ISK would allow the mega rich nullsec alliances to constantly give their best players respecs to keep ontop of the FOTM, which will negatively impact NPE and seriously hinder smaller, poorer alliances. AUR respecs would give dust a very strong P2W label, which, I'm sure you know, will make a lot of people stay away from legion. A percentage of total SP could work if you intend to make it a tool for new players to use to try out different roles and find out what they're comfortable with, but I doubt any hardcore players would want to lose months worth of SP for a respec. The problem is what do you want respecs to be used for? What target audience do you see using respecs? We want cake and tea.

TrueXer0z DUST University Ivy League 542	Posted - 2014.05.14 12:04:00 - [61] - Quote Melchiah ARANeAE wrote: CCP Z wrote: Quote: Respec Discussion Respec will have a gradually increasing cost, so your choices matter What kind of cost are we talking about? ISK would allow the mega rich nullsec alliances to constantly give their best players respecs to keep ontop of the FOTM, which will negatively impact NPE and seriously hinder smaller, poorer alliances. AUR respecs would give dust a very strong P2W label, which, I'm sure you know, will make a lot of people stay away from legion. A percentage of total SP could work if you intend to make it a tool for new players to use to try out different roles and find out what they're comfortable with, but I doubt any hardcore players would want to lose months worth of SP for a respec. The problem is what do you want respecs to be used for? What target audience do you see using respecs? +1 I can't imagine a better stated post about this specific subject. Director, Dust University @TrueXer0z *Kevall Longstride - CPM1*
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 2881	Posted - 2014.05.14 12:07:00 - [62] - Quote CCP Z wrote: Quote: Are the weapons of each dropsuit tree race specific as Gallentee have Assault rifle but no scrambler or rail rifle? No, weapon types will be linked to Role and not necessarily Race. You will end up with 2 different Rail Rifle depending on the race though. Could you clarify this a little? It seems like you want to make racial variants of the rail rifle. So like... Caldari Rail Rifle, Gallente Rail Rifle, etc. This doesn't really make any sense though... its the Caldari racial variant of the 'assault rifle' class of weaponry and not a class of weaponry on its own. I'm guessing you meant 2 different Rail Rifles depending on the role though edit: Additionally, I have always been in support of a limited respec system myself. 'Choices matter' doesn't really happen when you guys are making balancing choices that are out of the players control. However, a full respec system, as much as I would love one, would probably hurt the game in the long run. I suggest getting saberwing or logi bro to dig up some of the old suggestions on respec systems, there were some amazing ideas posted back in 1.3 about it. A system where you accumulate 'respec points' passively which can allow you 1:1 to respec is a really good idea. Its low cost for low SP characters trying new stuff while being a substantial cost for any substantial amount of SP redistribution for high SP players. You can also sell a remap booster as an optional way of increasing this pool. Its remains open to all while giving an additional monetization avenue for those who so desire to purchase a booster. As already pointed out, do not lock SP refunds behind isk or aurum... that is a dark dark road I suggest you stay far away from.
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A Caps and Mercs 473	Posted - 2014.05.14 12:36:00 - [63] - Quote TL;DR - Current skilltree is badly implemented - It makes player go for "unlock mode" instead of understanding the mechanic and playing with it - Respec is okay for your business model - LoL matchmaking with WoW items and Diablo III auction house it-¦s a frightening persepctive. CCP Z wrote: 1st batch of answers: Yes we could keep the 5 levels. From the studies and the research we made on DUST, people seems to not understand it. ThatGÇÖs why we want to remove it. No, weapon types will be linked to Role and not necessarily Race. You will end up with 2 different Rail Rifle depending on the race though. Respec will have a gradually increasing cost, so your choices matter Ok, NOW we-¦re talking. First question i have is about the methodology of your study, the sample space and these things, because if the questions were linked to the Dust skill tree, then you have a serious bias compromising your study. Dust skill tree is incomplete. And i don-¦t mean "It-¦s ok but missing certain nodes because all the suits weren-¦t there", i mean incomplete in "It trashes the purpose of the skill tree". 1-3-5 to unlock basic-advanced-proto is a terrible way of using the tree. It-¦s counterintuitive, makes people hate the skills because they-¦re not seen as "The thing tht will give me that extra 2% so i can get the final blow instead of recieving it" or "the extra 3% i needed to make my kickassfitting that i played around for hours on my Dust fitting tool, without having to buy an implant for it" (Wish we had implants), but instead as that "Thing that unlocks shiny dropsuit" with absolutely no regard to the rest of the skills needed to use modules with the shiny dropsuit. How many people went straight for the dropsuit while still using basic modules? How many times they complained on the forums that their suit was nerfed, and that they wanted respec because of it? You think it was because the skilltree is complicated? No. It-¦s because the skill tree doesn-¦t serve much purpose other than unlocking things (instead of being it-¦s own ecosystem of positive feedback troughout any game modes) and because it was (is) incomplete! People like unlocking things because it-¦s an achievment. Doesn-¦t matter if i have the proper fitting, i have ALL THE BLACK PROTOTYPE SUITS, then i-¦m better than a militia guy, right? Wait, how did that milita guy killed me? I unlocked a better suit, why am i dying? This skilltree sucks. Trashing a system that was implemented badly and getting a new one opesn the possibility of instead making the bad tried system good, to get the whole fiasco again with the new one. Dumbing down is not necessarily better, specially when it removes the "Secret CCP Special Sauce" that is the wild range of possible fittings, that you said it won-¦t be the case anymore fort they will be linked to role. (Or was their unlocking?) I don-¦t mind (anymore) the monetization of respec. It-¦s a different economic model than EVE and it should be possible specially because the new player experience is non existent and people are taken by hand to error due to the stupid unlocking achievment mode of the current skill tree format. But blame the errors on Dusts crap implementation of a skilltree, not the skilltree that we-¦re talking about. LoL matchmaking of "same powerlevel players" is good for some sort of "Mock arena gladiator" mode that doesn-¦t involve anythign relevant, but what about the other modes? Are there any in mind? I sincerely get the impression that you guys want to make a hybrid game that takes the League of Legends instant battle and matchmaking system (excellent for casual fun quick matches), mixing it with a WoW style availability of items (instead of a restricted set of option on LoL, and gathered by PvE gaming experience), a bonus tree like Diablo-WoW-LoL, and a trading system that looks like will be an auction house from wow or diablo (plus Plex). And all this being called "Customization", "Player Market" "Sandbox" "Choice". If you guys want to make a commercially viable game, not a problem. Just call it by it-¦s real name and don-¦t use words like "Sandbox" when it doesn-¦t appear to be the case. If Planetary Interaction was a farmville to be played from the cell phone, and people could sell the production for isk (or buy better tools to manage the planets with plex and isk), i bet a lot of people would be playing it just because of the isk-selling. Farmville in space with New Eden brand. The proper names of the games should be (with the current information) EVE Online EVE: Valkyrie Hybrid LoL-Blizzard FPS/Skill/Market system with New Eden Brand and EVE on it-¦s name
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3278	Posted - 2014.05.14 12:47:00 - [64] - Quote Principal: Every Skill Point spent should return a tangible benefit. However, Skill Point sinks are still required. I propose that the weapons unlocked by the first node in each weapon tree be the same as the Militia variant of that weapons, except for reduced PG and CPU requirements. This would bring weapons in line with models, where the only change is PC & CPU. Then the variant of the weapon with the larger clip size or equivalent benefit, should be unlocked by the next node in that weapon three. For example the Plasma Rifle would be the same as the Militia Plasma Rifle except for PC and CPU requirements. Then the Assault Plasma Rifle with the larger clip size would be unlocked by a node you have access to once they have unlocked the Plasma Rifle. I think unlocking the Plasma Rifle should give you access to the nodes for the Assault Plasma Rifle, Burst Plasma Rifle, Breach Plasma Rifle, and the Tactical Plasma Rifle. Each would have a different skill point cost to unlock them according the meta level assigned to them. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Musta Tornius Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1340	Posted - 2014.05.14 12:56:00 - [65] - Quote To CCP Z: Could you tell us more about the wildcard system you proposed to go with the skill tree?
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3287	Posted - 2014.05.14 12:57:00 - [66] - Quote CCP Z wrote: we are not talking to the same target audience (hardcore MMO players vs Online FPS Players). WHAT?!!! I came to DUST BECAUSE it was an MMO! Or at least was supposed to be an MMO. I would not play a FPS which was not an MMO! Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3287	Posted - 2014.05.14 12:59:00 - [67] - Quote This is an idea I came up with while listening to the Biomassed PodCast. Since this is the official thread I am posting it here. Fox Gaden wrote: The most difficult balance in developing a skill system for Legion is finding the balance between making it easy for new players to figure out, while making it complex and flexible enough to keep veteran players interested. Some of the criticism with CCP Z's plan comes from people thinking that it leans too far toward the new player, and that it will not be as fun for veteran players as a result. While thinking about this I also thought about the certificate system in EVE, as well as what CCP did when they changed the UI for the skill system in DUST. If you know where to look, you can still open the old skill system in DUST which uses a list interface rather than a node interface. The key that I took from this was knowing where to look. My proposal is that the skill system that is prominently displayed when you start the game would be CCP Z's Role based Item Progression system, and if you purchase your skills through that progression you will get a skill plan that works for the role you choose. The prerequisites for the skills in that interface would be set by the interface, rather than being the actual prerequisites for the skill. Then there should be a second skill system interface designed for the veteran player which is much more free form. This second system should be buried a bit so that you have to discover it, or be told about it. This interface would include the same skills as CCP Z's interface (possible more skills), but they would be based on their actual prerequisites, rather than role based prerequisites. So lets say you want to use the Tactical Assault Rifle: - New Player Interface: You need to skill up through the Assault suit tree, get Assault Rifle, and then you can get the Tactical Assault Rifle skill. - Veteran Player Interface: You simply go to the weapons tree, get the Assault Rifle skill, and then you can get the Tactical Assault Rifle skill. Key premises: 1) You can't go wrong with the New Player Interface, but you can be more creative with the Veteran Player Interface. On the flip side, the Veteran Player Interface will give you the freedom to make mistakes, while the New Player Interface imposes restrictions that protect you from yourself. 2) The New Player Interface is the default which new players will find easily when they start the game. They will only discover the Veteran Player Interface if they are exploring the UI, or doing research. In either case they are taking actions which indicate that they are ready to discover greater complexity in the game. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3287	Posted - 2014.05.14 13:00:00 - [68] - Quote This is a letter I sent to all CPM members: Fox Gaden wrote: Greetings CPM members: I am the CEO of the second largest training Corporation in DUST 514, a cofounder of the Learning Coalition, and a sponsor of the Spanish Rookie help channel (Novatos Espa+¦ol). I see CCP ZGÇÖs proposed Item Progression Tree as a vastly superior way to unlock items, but I believe that completely abandoning the 5 level skill system, specifically the 5 level skills that provide bonuses, is a huge mistake! I have spent hours talking players who were completely new to the New Eden universe through how skills and fittings interact to allow them to build a suit that works for what they want to do. I completely agree with Dennie Fleetfoot that CCP ZGÇÖs proposed system will make getting started a lot easier for new players. But I have also talked to those same players two or three weeks later and had them tell me that DUST 514 is so much better than CoD, Battlefield, or any other FPS they have played because of the depth and complexity of the character/fit customization. The fitting optimisation skills are a mini game within the game. I remember how satisfied I felt when I realized that I could make my fit work for less than half the skill point cost by training Heavy Weapon Optimization to 4 rather than training Electronics to 5. I had solved the puzzle! That is depth through complexity. That is fun! Other item optimization skills are important as well. It is one thing to have access to a weapon or a piece of equipment, but it is another thing to put the skill points into specialising in it. Skills that reduce PG or CPU usage; reduce sway, kick, or dispersion; or otherwise make the item easier to fit or more effective, help to make you feel like a specialist. They arenGÇÖt mandatary, but they give you a slight advantage with that item over someone who does not specialise. If we are going to use the Item Progression tree to unlock items, it should also unlock 5 level bonus skills associated with each of those items. If Item Progression is the tree, the Item Optimization skills should be the leaves on that tree. Personal Enhancement skills are important too: I want my character to be more than the sum of his modules! I want to be Tonny Stark, not one of those dam suits! I want to train skills that make my character better regardless of what fit he wares. I want to train Electronics and Engineering so I can make unconventional fits that no one else has considered. That is sand in the sandbox. DonGÇÖt take my sand away! When no one in the squad has hacking mods equipped, I want to be the guy who can hack a little faster because I put skill points into a skill that others considered merely a quality of life skill. Or I might want to be the Logi who can see other medium frame suits on my radar closing in on me when I am hacking, because I put some points into Scan Precession. These are skills that give the character individuality beyond what suit he wares. This helps with immersion, and with forming an emotional tie to your character. He is not a robot! Under the armour he is flesh and blood. If Item Progression is the tree, then Personal Enhancement skills would be the roots that make the entire tree stronger. The 5 Level Skill system is what has allowed EVE Online to work for 11 years. The 5 Level Skill system is one of the best things that DUST 514 has going for it. It is a large part of why DUST 514 is better than Call of Duty or Battlefield. It is a diminishing returns system which allows new players to get more than half of the potential benefit by skilling to level 3, for a very reasonable expenditure of skill points, while also letting veteran players go back and gain small advantages over their opponents by spending large amounts of skill points to nudge a skill up to level 5. Abandoning this fundamental aspect of the game just because skills donGÇÖt work well for unlocking equipment is like throwing the baby out with the bath water. The Item Progression tree is a good replacement for skills such as Dropsuit Command which served only to unlock items, but getting rid of the bonus skills at the same time is like an American remake of a French movie, it completely misses the point! Fox Gaden / Crash Gaden / Renier Gaden Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Garth Mandra The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 381	Posted - 2014.05.14 13:08:00 - [69] - Quote CCP Z wrote: Quote: With a PC game can't you do both the new easy progression and keep the lvl 5 system so we can just get what we want since we know what we want. Yes we could keep the 5 levels. From the studies and the research we made on DUST, people seems to not understand it. ThatGÇÖs why we want to remove it. People didn't seem to understand it? Have you tried explaining it to them? I suspect that this can be solved with the NPE. I share the worries of dumbing down the skill tree and making it boring and restrictive.
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 2665	Posted - 2014.05.14 13:15:00 - [70] - Quote Natu Nobilis wrote: TL;DR Hybrid LoL-Blizzard FPS/Skill/Market system with New Eden Brand and EVE on it-¦s name ^ This This message was brought to you by the PC master race.

Aikuchi Tomaru Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2596	Posted - 2014.05.14 13:21:00 - [71] - Quote Quote: We will offer a Respec Option Please don't do this. This is just the easy way out and would render the skillsystem obsolete. Sign up for Caldari FW and defeat the evil Gallente Overlords!
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens Final Resolution. 1826	Posted - 2014.05.14 13:21:00 - [72] - Quote The respec bit is the one I find most... strange. Not that a respec thing is not a bad idea or that other games don't have it or anything like that; it is just the sudden reversal of everything that CCP and CPM has said before. Things like "Pay to Win", or "your choices matter", or stuff like that. I don't necessarily have anything against respecs but I have to ask why the sudden change in design philosophy? How will the respec work though? Will it be "you get one when you start the clone and one every 12 months to a maximum of two at anytime" ala EVE's Neural Remapping as well as "5 dollars for a respec, then 10 dollars, then 15 dollars" like what World of Warcraft used to have with the price of respeccing talent points (though that was only in game currency)? I have always thought that every new player should get a "you have a chance to respec now; the option to do so will time out in a week" after that reach a certain amount of skill points but I never would have thought that a respec would be a paid thing, though that is just going with the fact that you are CCP's monetization director. Does this mean that if something were to be severely changed like modules removed or restructuring of skills that respecs would no longer happen because of the reasoning "players can just respec if they want"? This is kind of scary as it gives CCP a monetary benefit in removing skills and restructuring skills like 1.7 and the vehicle skills. What about when a massive increase in racial parity happens like Gallente, Amarr, and Minmatar Sniper Rifle? Will the reasoning be "buy a respec if are an Amarr and don't want to use the Caldari Sniper Rifle" even though it was the only choice? More terrifying: CCP officially has a monetary strategy in releasing things that are overpowered for at least a short amount of time. Riot has been accused of this with champions; release an OP champion, people buy it with real money, it is then brought back into line two weeks later. CCP has the same thing: "We have noticed that the Plasma Rifle is too weak so we have increased its damage by 20%", y'all know that is too much of a buff, it becomes massively Flavor/Fit of the Month, people buy respecs into it, "we have realized that, while the Plasma Rifle was too weak, a 20% damage increase was too much. It has been adjusted to 10% for balance reasons." I just have one request as a player and as a customer (seriously, you need to rename DUST 514 to DUST 514: Presented by the Ridgeson Family): do not get your two jobs in DUST 514/Legion mixed up. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A Caps and Mercs 476	Posted - 2014.05.14 13:24:00 - [73] - Quote Joseph Ridgeson wrote: The respec bit is the one I find most... strange. Not that a respec thing is not a bad idea or that other games don't have it or anything like that; it is just the sudden reversal of everything that CCP and CPM has said before. Things like "Pay to Win", or "your choices matter", or stuff like that. I don't necessarily have anything against respecs but I have to ask why the sudden change in design philosophy? Them companies needz moneyz to run.
Haerr Legio DXIV 623	Posted - 2014.05.14 13:27:00 - [74] - Quote Which role(s) will have corporation- / vehicle-skills under it? Will HAVs and Dropships be under the same role? (If no; will all land based vehicles (LAVs, HAVs, Mechs, Speeders) be under the same role and all air vehicles (Dropships, Jets) under an other?) Will vehicles be BPOs like suits? Will fitting optimisation skills for weapons still be a thing? If they are will they be so far into one role that you will be forced to (almost) fully spec 2 roles in order to use 1 weapon that is unavailable for your chosen suit?
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 496	Posted - 2014.05.14 13:29:00 - [75] - Quote Can we still choose to use our cheap-fits in a high-meta match? I want to tactically deploy ISK assets to optimize my ISK efficiency (fun gambling). The low meta matches are for new or casual players, right? Low rewards, low cost, fun matches for the masses? There will be bullets. ACR+SMG [CEO of Terror]
Kovinis Sparagas Bullet Cluster Lokun Listamenn 391	Posted - 2014.05.14 13:30:00 - [76] - Quote I always play MMO's the path of "jack of all trades - knows everything, but isn't good at anything". Will I be able to do this, in this sandbox game (with means, I should be able to do what ever I want) with this "improved" skill system? I support EVE Legion, but the message was very badly delivered...
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A Caps and Mercs 476	Posted - 2014.05.14 13:33:00 - [77] - Quote Luk Manag wrote: Can we still choose to use our cheap-fits in a high-meta match? I want to tactically deploy ISK assets to optimize my ISK efficiency (fun gambling). The low meta matches are for new or casual players, right? Low rewards, low cost, fun matches for the masses? From what i understood, the matchmaking will calculate your stuff power and put you with similar players. You and your team: Powerlevel OVER 9000 Opponente team A: Powerlevel 400 Opponente team B: Powerlevel 8500 Opponente team C: Powerlevel 500 So the system calculates the Powerlevel with the modules, dropsuit and other variables, and will make matches based on it, so you would fight against team B and the teams A and C would fight each other. (From what i understood)
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens Final Resolution. 1827	Posted - 2014.05.14 13:33:00 - [78] - Quote Also, the complete and total openness from you has been refreshing. I noticed it in the "DUST 514" Progression speech where someoe just asked "How much of this is coming to DUST 514?" and you just said, completely without bullshit, "It is for Legion." That wasn't something that we were particularly happy to hear because of the "Is DUST totally dead then?" before Rouge was able to get the information out at the CCP keynote but the plan speaking, honesty that we have seen from you is nice. Same with this post. Even if it isn't things that we are necessarily happy to see, we all appreciate the fact that you are informing us as the Project moves forward. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3293	Posted - 2014.05.14 13:35:00 - [79] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: The fact is simple, if we wanted to play WoW or CoD, we would not be your customers paying for this vision. This is a very good point. I came to EVE because WOW was constantly getting dumbed down, and because I felt like I was on a gear treadmill. I came to DUST because EVE did not offer me the twitch muscle direct interaction in combat. While the tactical combat of EVE is fun and challenging, I yearned for something closer to the direct combat experience of WOW but with the intellectual challenge of EVE. A lot of the FPS vets I have talked to like DUST for the same reason. After years of playing the same old same old FPS rehashed with a different skin every year or so, they want something more persistent and complex. They have grown up playing FPS games, and now they want an Adult FPS. One that requires a longer attention span and challenges their intellect a little more than the games they enjoyed when they were 12. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3293	Posted - 2014.05.14 13:38:00 - [80] - Quote Luther Mandrix wrote: Note how about you delete the post that are not asking questions you can moderate the thread. If we only ask questions, and CCP Z only answers questions, that is not a discussion! A discussion is two way communication. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.

Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens Final Resolution. 1828	Posted - 2014.05.14 13:39:00 - [81] - Quote Natu Nobilis wrote: Them companies needz moneyz to run. Absolutely but the change to "let's have paid respecs" is still a massive change in philosophy. Boosters, Skins, custom emblems on your dropsuit, and the like could have been employed (and I would bet they will be) that fills the need for cash money quite easily. Events like Triple SP also lead to more AUR purchases because "I can get even MOAR SP!" or the Origin event where wearing an Origin Suit made you cap out much, much faster though not actually gaining more SP in the end. I am fine with a company releasing something that I want and I pay money for it. The Skins I have bought in League of Legends have all been happy experiences. However, UVT's and possibly the new Respec System may just be CCP coming at me with a bat like I am a money pinata. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Happy Violentime OMFGZOMBIESRUN 606	Posted - 2014.05.14 13:41:00 - [82] - Quote Passive skills that affect all suits such as the current Dropsuit armour/shield/biotic upgrades (and including Shield extension and armour plating etc) Are these being carried over to Legion and if so, where would they sit? Would they sit under a role? IE: in the Scout role, you have Biotics Upgrades for Kin Cats and Cardiac Regs, Heavy role has Armour Plating etc.?
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1296	Posted - 2014.05.14 13:44:00 - [83] - Quote When people start questioning the methodology of an internal study because its findings happen to contradict their strongly held views, you know you've hit a nerve. Again, I have to remind everyone to please till Z has presented his completed work. I only ask because I suspect it is strongly connected to the new player market and a lot of the ISK sinks that have been put in place to prevent the current PC derived glut of ISK plaguing the game. The progression in the game is just part of Z's job title. He's also in charge of the economy which tells me that the two are linked. CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2844	Posted - 2014.05.14 13:49:00 - [84] - Quote Ok couple of questions 1) Why do you feel that weapons need to be limited to roles? Even if only intially it sets up this idea that you have to use these weapons in these roles. I would also like to reference you to the folowing Video, which is on the DUST website. It's the feeling of choice, this freedom to do, to be whatever we wanted that got so many of us interested. Do you not feel that players should be able to make their own informed descisions about what best suits them, instead of mindlessly following a set path. 2) Why do you feel the need to have a singular skill tree? There are hundreds of variations of different modules, weapons and equipment and your trying to cram them all into the same tree, with vehicles as well. How difficult is going to be to find a specific item that I want? What if I want a Hybrid Nanohives (Healing and Ammo), where on earth to do I start? How far up the tree do I look? Is it only going to be in one location? Would it not be better to have the 3 trees we have now. Suits Weapons Equipment / Modules It makes it easier for us to find specific items that we decide we want, half the fun of DUST is talking to team mates, disscussing your fittings, the variations you use etc. (Actual In-game conversation between members of my Squad) Holy Sht man, that hive heals bloody fast!* Yeah, I got one of those triage hives, only healing. Why not go for a Hybrid Hive and do a little of both No need, I omitted armour plating for reps so I get something like 10+ a second This kind of thing just won't happen becausd most people will mindlessly follow a single path. Looks like its back to FPS Military Shooter 56 Monkey Mac - Just another pile of discarded ashes on the battlefield!
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 496	Posted - 2014.05.14 14:05:00 - [85] - Quote Natu Nobilis wrote: Luk Manag wrote: Can we still choose to use our cheap-fits in a high-meta match? I want to tactically deploy ISK assets to optimize my ISK efficiency (fun gambling). The low meta matches are for new or casual players, right? Low rewards, low cost, fun matches for the masses? From what i understood, the matchmaking will calculate your stuff power and put you with similar players. You and your team: Powerlevel OVER 9000 Opponente team A: Powerlevel 400 Opponente team B: Powerlevel 8500 Opponente team C: Powerlevel 500 So the system calculates the Powerlevel with the modules, dropsuit and other variables, and will make matches based on it, so you would fight against team B and the teams A and C would fight each other. (From what i understood) That can't be right. If they were going to do this, they would absolutely need a weighted performance attribute. If you have a lot of nice gear, but have low K/D - WP/D - and poor ISK efficiency, you should be ranked lower, and not dropped into a battle where your solo-no-coms-using 0/10 tard tactics cannot harm the experience for the other players. There will be bullets. ACR+SMG [CEO of Terror]
danie braz Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 25	Posted - 2014.05.14 14:08:00 - [86] - Quote We are here trying to help CCP in its endeavor to make Legion a successfull game. I am curious about development in DUST 514. I understand new info and etc will be brought to light. My question is if there are major leaps that need to be made to code some of these changes into Dust? From the outside looking in it seems to be an issue of just re-coding and modifying game UI. I undestand the ps3 is a dinosaur, but id like to understand what makes it so hard implement and fix DUST problems. Even if just fixes are made into the game it would still be better than 90%+ fps in the market. From a developmental standpoint id prefer a better overall experience with fixes than new content. Thank you for the thread and support to the DEVs.
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 2666	Posted - 2014.05.14 14:09:00 - [87] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: When people start questioning the methodology of an internal study because its findings happen to contradict their strongly held views, you know you've hit a nerve. CCP is talking about their DNA throughout the whole of FF, and posts/interviews in the aftermath of FF. CCP presents a skill tree, matchmaking and item system during FF that reflects every other game with a huge playerbase except EVE. Isn-¦t this a contradiction? This message was brought to you by the PC master race.
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A Caps and Mercs 478	Posted - 2014.05.14 14:09:00 - [88] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: When people start questioning the methodology of an internal study because its findings happen to contradict their strongly held views, you know you've hit a nerve. Again, I have to remind everyone to please till Z has presented his completed work. I only ask because I suspect it is strongly connected to the new player market and a lot of the ISK sinks that have been put in place to prevent the current PC derived glut of ISK plaguing the game. The progression in the game is just part of Z's job title. He's also in charge of the economy which tells me that the two are linked. Methodology is everything. Peer review exists for a reason. Without methodology, data, and a proper presentation of the findings, it becomes a speculation game. I-¦m not saying they are not competent, i want to know what kind of questions were asked and mostly, HOW. While i don-¦t have data, i can only provide interpretations for an answer that i don-¦t know the question. Pratical example: What-¦s the menaing of life? 42 See what a lack of methodology does ?
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3295	Posted - 2014.05.14 14:10:00 - [89] - Quote Principals: - The progression system needs to be non linier, so that new players can become competitive against veterans fairly quickly. (The 5 level skill system was a diminishing returns non linier system.) - Every skill point invested should provide a tangible benefit. (The current system breaks this rule. Think level 4 and 5 of Dropsuit Command.) - No max number of skill points. The fact that you never stop progressing in EVE is one of the reasons people stick with EVE so long, and why when they do leave they usually come back. Legion needs to maintain this as well. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
TITANIC Xangore Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 472	Posted - 2014.05.14 14:11:00 - [90] - Quote Can we start a thread about Valkyrie, or Eve here? I mean if we are discussing a game that isn't DUST, and we have dev's providing info, why not talk about some games that actually work and that have been played? Legion isn't DUST, it was a kick to the face to be shown all these great things and then to be told about all these new ideas, to then be told that DUST won't have any of this. So let's talk about eve, how much better the SP and skill system is there then here, let's talk about what possibilities Valkyrie will hold for us being able to fly starships that are light and nimble fighters, how we would love to see some tie in with carriers from EVE. Let's talk about how DUST at least has interaction and cooperation with EVE and Legion we are told will have none of it. And that in the end, the only tie in with EVE and Legion is that in the title screen it saysEVE Legion. Start a new forum to talk about Legion, and let's talk about the future releases for DUST. (10:54:20 AM) TitanicX: fuck, this burrito is great its like two mexican lesbians having sex in my mouth

Brush Master HavoK Core RISE of LEGION 1227	Posted - 2014.05.14 14:22:00 - [91] - Quote Will there be some sort of suit/weapons testing grounds / virtual training? One of the big reasons that people skill into something, just to find they hate it is because they want to try it before they buy it. If you could test a possible build without having to vest into it, would make skilling into something you don't like a lot less likely. Dust Veteran. June 2012 - ? twitter.com/dustreports
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A Caps and Mercs 478	Posted - 2014.05.14 14:23:00 - [92] - Quote Luk Manag wrote: That can't be right. If they were going to do this, they would absolutely need a weighted performance attribute. If you have a lot of nice gear, but have low K/D - WP/D - and poor ISK efficiency, you should be ranked lower, and not dropped into a battle where your solo-no-coms-using 0/10 tard tactics cannot harm the experience for the other players. Something liek this LOL Matchmaker
RailTank QQ SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 29	Posted - 2014.05.14 14:44:00 - [93] - Quote All of this sounds actually very PlanetSide 2 like. EVER piece of equipment is locked to a 'suit' (role) in that game, and the little variation there is comes from suits accidentally sharing a 'module' to customize. Also, it becomes a super duper grindfest, with little cross variation and adaptibility. Is this really how your internal metrics have shown to be a better option than improving NPE and tiericiding suits? Or have I missed the point after staring at the progression threads and videos for hours? Soldner's in exile after calling for a riot and getting BANANA'ed.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 2884	Posted - 2014.05.14 14:52:00 - [94] - Quote It seems that people have the wrong impression of exactly what is going to happen with the new role system. So if the only to unlock Assault Rail Rifles is to first skill into the Assault Role, that does not mean that you can only use Assault Rail Rifles with the Assault Dropsuits. I can put a ton of SP in logistics, unlock my Amarr logi near the end of the tree and then stop there, start putting SP into the Assault Role and unlock Assault Rail Rifles. I can now take that Assault Rail Rifle and put it on my Amarr Logi suits. CCP Z has already confirmed that this is how he intends for the system to work. We will still be able to make the exact same types of fit we are making today, its just a different progression path through the skill tree to get those same modules.
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 2671	Posted - 2014.05.14 15:09:00 - [95] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: It seems that people have the wrong impression of exactly what is going to happen with the new role system. So if the only way to unlock Assault Rail Rifles is to first skill into the Assault Role, that does not mean that you can only use Assault Rail Rifles with the Assault Dropsuits. I can put a ton of SP in logistics, unlock my Amarr logi near the end of the tree and then stop there, start putting SP into the Assault Role and unlock Assault Rail Rifles. I can now take that Assault Rail Rifle and put it on my Amarr Logi suits. CCP Z has already confirmed that this is how he intends for the system to work. We will still be able to make the exact same types of fit we are making today, its just a different progression path through the skill tree to get those same modules. This makes sense, as long as you can turn it off and do free-hand skilling. This message was brought to you by the PC master race.
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1296	Posted - 2014.05.14 15:10:00 - [96] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: It seems that people have the wrong impression of exactly what is going to happen with the new role system. So if the only way to unlock Assault Rail Rifles is to first skill into the Assault Role, that does not mean that you can only use Assault Rail Rifles with the Assault Dropsuits. I can put a ton of SP in logistics, unlock my Amarr logi near the end of the tree and then stop there, start putting SP into the Assault Role and unlock Assault Rail Rifles. I can now take that Assault Rail Rifle and put it on my Amarr Logi suits. CCP Z has already confirmed that this is how he intends for the system to work. We will still be able to make the exact same types of fit we are making today, its just a different progression path through the skill tree to get those same modules. ^ this. Progression isn't changing, it'll just be done differently. CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
RailTank QQ SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 29	Posted - 2014.05.14 15:11:00 - [97] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: It seems that people have the wrong impression of exactly what is going to happen with the new role system. So if the only way to unlock Assault Rail Rifles is to first skill into the Assault Role, that does not mean that you can only use Assault Rail Rifles with the Assault Dropsuits. I can put a ton of SP in logistics, unlock my Amarr logi near the end of the tree and then stop there, start putting SP into the Assault Role and unlock Assault Rail Rifles. I can now take that Assault Rail Rifle and put it on my Amarr Logi suits. CCP Z has already confirmed that this is how he intends for the system to work. We will still be able to make the exact same types of fit we are making today, its just a different progression path through the skill tree to get those same modules. This makes sense, as long as you can turn it off and do free-hand skilling. So you're saying the skill sheet system is still an option like we have now? Then I redact my pseudo accusatory post. Don't mention popcorn or lackthereof while watching CPM0 go supernova, forum overlords don't like it. SoldnerVonkuechle
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8550	Posted - 2014.05.14 15:16:00 - [98] - Quote Melchiah ARANeAE wrote: CCP Z wrote: Quote: Respec Discussion Respec will have a gradually increasing cost, so your choices matter What kind of cost are we talking about? ISK would allow the mega rich nullsec alliances to constantly give their best players respecs to keep ontop of the FOTM, which will negatively impact NPE and seriously hinder smaller, poorer alliances. AUR respecs would give dust a very strong P2W label, which, I'm sure you know, will make a lot of people stay away from legion. A percentage of total SP could work if you intend to make it a tool for new players to use to try out different roles and find out what they're comfortable with, but I doubt any hardcore players would want to lose months worth of SP for a respec. The problem is what do you want respecs to be used for? What target audience do you see using respecs? On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 2885	Posted - 2014.05.14 15:20:00 - [99] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: It seems that people have the wrong impression of exactly what is going to happen with the new role system. So if the only way to unlock Assault Rail Rifles is to first skill into the Assault Role, that does not mean that you can only use Assault Rail Rifles with the Assault Dropsuits. I can put a ton of SP in logistics, unlock my Amarr logi near the end of the tree and then stop there, start putting SP into the Assault Role and unlock Assault Rail Rifles. I can now take that Assault Rail Rifle and put it on my Amarr Logi suits. CCP Z has already confirmed that this is how he intends for the system to work. We will still be able to make the exact same types of fit we are making today, its just a different progression path through the skill tree to get those same modules. This makes sense, as long as you can turn it off and do free-hand skilling. He's also kind of confirmed he wishes for those prerequisite skills to be a form of SP sink. I don't think he intends to allow you to skill into any part of the skill tree. You can think of it like a simplified version of secondary and tertiary skill requirements. In EVE it would look like this: Assault Rail Rifle - Requirements: Basic Assault Dropsuit Command I Assault Rail Rifle I But in Legion it looks like: Assault Role -> Basic Assault Dropsuits -> Assault Rail Rifle Its bringing back secondary skill requirements without explicitly telling you they are secondary skill requirements. The second idea he presented was to give you wildcards throughout your progression such that you can skip these prerequisites. However, I personally feel that wildcards just make the system more convoluted than it needs to be and the idea should just be scrapped entirely. If you want assault weapon variants you skill into the assault role, no exceptions. This gives you the benefit of having an assault suit, so you try that out a little and decide... oh man I wanna spec into this too! Its meant to draw you in by forcing you to try new things as a stepping stone to what you actually want, presenting an opportunity for you to want more of that as well. Its a clever system, I don't think we're giving CCP Z enough credit for what he's building here. Yeah sure I don't want to waste SP on prereqs either and skill into exactly the items that I want, but that's not always the most engaging system either. I really want to see a prototype of this once he's got it developed to a point where he feels comfortable sharing it. edit: Also, CCP Z - you've opened a can of worms with your statement on respecs. You need to create a second thread dedicated purely to that asap or this whole forum is going to get out of control with 1000 threads on the topic.
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 2673	Posted - 2014.05.14 15:29:00 - [100] - Quote No enforcement of roles, ever. This message was brought to you by the PC master race.

Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1296	Posted - 2014.05.14 15:44:00 - [101] - Quote I will say I'm not a fan of the wildcard till I know more about it. CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 112	Posted - 2014.05.14 15:45:00 - [102] - Quote tl;dr: Only the new player, high security experience needs simplicity. I don't have a question for CCP Z, as much as a statement of my own preference, which bears upon his choices for designing Legion's character progression. Massive character inequality isn't a problem. Whether in terms of wealth or abilities or combat effectiveness. Some people will try to tell you, CCP Z that these inequalities are a huge problem. They generally aren't. They become a problem only if they are achieved through paying money (pay-to-win) instead of by playing an excellent game really well. Pay very close attention to the dynamic of the Eve Online sandbox, where the most active players are really your partners in creating emergent game play for the rest of your customers; where those creators of emergent game play aren't your monetization targets. Pay attention to the way some customers who hate grinding for isk subsidize the play (through the plex system) of those who perform services for other players for isk. That could be poorly described as one group of players functioning as the "slaves" of another group of players. In reality its CCP designing Eve Online so well, that a significantly diverse group of players can all enjoy it. Someone who wants to pay for his own account (and my account through the plex market), gets to play PvP to his heart's content, without worrying about grinding isk, because he just pays more to CCP. I get to play without paying real money to CCP, by playing in the industry and market CCP created, in a way that serves that other player. How can this principle be implemented in Legion? Recognize that your monetization targets are the people who want convenience, not the people who want and pursue the most wealth, combat effectiveness, or organizational dominance. Avoiding pay to win is only one side of that coin. The other side is, giving Legion players skills that can serve other players, through the in game market. If you build a Legion salvage system without any of the mildly inconvenient* steps we see in the Eve Online industrial economy, if its too simple, you will not be taking advantage of the diversity of players Legion could attract, and the ways that interaction can spur income for CCP. --- If you give salvage and all equipment (not just armor plates) weight or volume that slows players down, there's a reason to prefer an LAV with more torque instead of a more offensive/defensive ability. Bingo, you've just introduced the "hauling" trade to Legion. --- You do need simplicity in the progression system, but ONLY for new players* in high security space. You also need complexity, depth, hardship, and massive inequality if you want Legion to have longevity and appeal to a large and diverse set of players. Also, people will warn you to be cautious building connections to Eve Online's economy. Don't be too cautious; be bold, but share the economic links you're contemplating with the community on a test server or in the forums, and you'll get excellent projections of their impact. If you share your bad ideas with us, we will let you know before you implement them and drive away customers.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4064	Posted - 2014.05.14 16:34:00 - [103] - Quote Look, I'll just say it. This new system isn't very good. Dust is harsh with Proto stomping (bad players hate this), EVE is harsh with gate camping/blobbing/suicide ganking (bad players hate this), Legion should be equally harsh. Matchmaking should be good, but not at the expense of the powerful versus not powerful struggle. You're trying to flip the "mass appeal" switch and sacrifice good gameplay for popularity (and in the office this translates to dollar signs). It won't work, your game isn't as polished as Titanfall or COD and knowing your development process it's never going to be. You pump out updates too fast, and your team is too small. I'm sorry, those are the facts. The casuals will see your game, and think "Oh, well this game is alright... Titanfall is better though" and they won't come back. They have no vested interest in Dust, EVE, and they won't have an interest in Legion either. The production value is what they care about, and it simply isn't there. Its core appeal is to a Machiavellian playerbase who ignores these facts because it allows them to live out a power fantasy regarding taking away other peoples toys and griefing those who are not in a strong position to defend themselves. If you try to build your game the other way and ignores these basic New Eden principles -- making fights "fair" -- you will pretty much just create another version of every other game in existence.
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2845	Posted - 2014.05.14 16:37:00 - [104] - Quote Not much discussing here, no offence but since you've offered to talk to us, it would be nice if you actually did so. We want to understand your reasons behind the system amd discuss the good and bad points about it. TALK to us! Looks like its back to FPS Military Shooter 56 Monkey Mac - Just another pile of discarded ashes on the battlefield!
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 112	Posted - 2014.05.14 16:40:00 - [105] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: If anyone can explain a way for a subscription, time based progress system to work in a FTP FPS which uses active SP accrual, while providing a monetisation system that enables CCP to make a profit, encouraging new player take up and not needing huge resources to create an extensive NPE to explain all that, then this is your moment to shine... As to the monetization portion of your question, make Legion players so influential on Eve Online planetary interaction and sovereignty that Eve Online players will spend isk (supporting plex purchases) to help their Legion allies. Legion should not repeat the mistake of Dust514 having a weak connection to Eve Online. This is Legion's primary selling point and advantage over other FPS titles. NPE? Legion players fight drones for salvage, AND to reduce the "drone infestation" statistic that lowers the resource gathering rates for planetary installations. If you tie the NPE into the economy in high sec in a way that protects new players from the proto-stopmping-inclined "elite," players who are also industrialists will provide the tutorials for new players. This is Legion's single greatest asset and distinction from every other FPS title: a connection to emergent game play creators of Eve Online. Give them map editors and appropriate economic connections to Legion, and they'll build the NPE for CCP.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8551	Posted - 2014.05.14 16:49:00 - [106] - Quote I don't like general respecs like many people come to know and understand. If there is ever a respec, then please consider this old suggestion that was brought up last year and was later recognized by CCP Cmdr Wang (back when he was working for you guys). Skill Back Booster https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=86041&find=unread Feedback/Suggestions List https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1009985#post1009985 Have you at least considered these options, CCP Z? One more question. I'm still not completely understanding the progression system you outlined regarding the weapons. What I want to know is, can I still be able to fit a Nova Knife onto a Commando suit or an Plasma Rifle onto a Scout or a Sniper Rifle onto a Logistics regardless of their role and and race? If not, why? On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 112	Posted - 2014.05.14 17:03:00 - [107] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: I'm still not completely understanding the progression system you outlined regarding the weapons. What I want to know is, can I still be able to fit a Nova Knife onto a Commando suit or an Plasma Rifle onto a Scout or a Sniper Rifle onto a Logistics regardless of their role and and race? I believe they've already answered this. Except for your question's reference to the commando suit (whose role hasn't been designed in the new system yet) the answer is yes, you can. It will require that you progress down two separate paths for two different roles, but once you have done so, you'll be able to combine those roles, mixing and matching elements from each. Or am I mistaken?
Starlight Burner ROGUE RELICS 34	Posted - 2014.05.14 17:24:00 - [108] - Quote I still fail to see how any of this is related to DUST 514. I strongly remember this being the DUST 514 forums for the DUST 514 PlayStation Exclusive. CCP Z still hasn't answered anything that pertains to the advancements of DUST 514 and nor has any of the other devs. Why doesn't CCP do something right for once? Maybe because CCP means Consistently Causing Problems? Go make a darn(m) LEGION forum. Screw you CCP, y'all are leaving DUST behind. Never forget 514, we carved the way.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8551	Posted - 2014.05.14 17:34:00 - [109] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: I'm still not completely understanding the progression system you outlined regarding the weapons. What I want to know is, can I still be able to fit a Nova Knife onto a Commando suit or an Plasma Rifle onto a Scout or a Sniper Rifle onto a Logistics regardless of their role and and race? I believe they've already answered this. Except for your question's reference to the commando suit (whose role hasn't been designed in the new system yet) the answer is yes, you can. It will require that you progress down two separate paths for two different roles, but once you have done so, you'll be able to combine those roles, mixing and matching elements from each. Or am I mistaken? I don't know about that. If I want to be able to run just a scout suit but want to use a weapon meant for a commando, why should I be forced to train into the commando suit in addition to the scout suit if I don't even want to be a commando? Sounds like an even bigger SP sink than what Dust has. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8551	Posted - 2014.05.14 17:35:00 - [110] - Quote Starlight Burner wrote: I still fail to see how any of this is related to DUST 514. I strongly remember this being the DUST 514 forums for the DUST 514 PlayStation Exclusive. CCP Z still hasn't answered anything that pertains to the advancements of DUST 514 and nor has any of the other devs. Why doesn't CCP do something right for once? Maybe because CCP means Consistently Causing Problems? Go make a darn(m) LEGION forum. You mean the forum section you're posting in right now? On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.

George Moros Balkan Express Squad 397	Posted - 2014.05.14 17:54:00 - [111] - Quote CCP Z wrote: Yes we could keep the 5 levels. From the studies and the research we made on DUST, people seems to not understand it. ThatGÇÖs why we want to remove it. "EVE Online is a spaceship sim MMO in which players take the role of spaceship pilots know as capsuleers. Spaceships come in different sizes, roles and abilities, and can be customized with various weapons and modules. Player characters with time train various skills, which range from 0 (untrained) to 5 (fully trained). Skills give characters improved abilities (usually related to various aspects of spaceship operation) and unlock access to better (and more costly) spaceships and equipment." This is EVE's skill system in a nutshell. It took me 4 sentences to describe it, together with the brief description of the game itself. Now, if you replace the words "spaceship" and "capsuleer" with "dropsuit" and "mercenary", you pretty much get the description of DUST's skill system. And you're saying people couldn't understand it? Excuse me, but what was the target group of your research? 5-year-olds? Pulvereus ergo queritor.
Villanor Aquarius WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 181	Posted - 2014.05.14 18:13:00 - [112] - Quote My feedback is more general just that skills and unlocks need to provide a lasting benefit. Getting a node just to get something isn't satisfying. However very easily unlocking that thing but dramatically improving it's performance through further unlocks is satisfying. You have real choices in that system. For a node system to be good, the nodes need to provide something beyond simple gear access. A meaningful skills system should leave the player with good skill allocation having better stats than someone not skilled for the same role. Even when both these players are in the same gear. Basically passive bonuses are essential otherwise skills feel like stepping stones rather than actual worthwhile achievements.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3304	Posted - 2014.05.14 18:22:00 - [113] - Quote CCP Z wrote: 1st batch of answers: Quote: With a PC game can't you do both the new easy progression and keep the lvl 5 system so we can just get what we want since we know what we want. Yes we could keep the 5 levels. From the studies and the research we made on DUST, people seems to not understand it. ThatGÇÖs why we want to remove it. Quote: Will electronics and engineering skills still that bring those numbers as cpu and pg still be in the game? Yes Quote: how will you implement passive skills and bonuses? They will be a node to unlock (same as a new weapon, Drop Suit or module) So would I understand this right that the Engineering skill will be a single node that gives a 25% bonus to PC? Will I have to grind for 2 weeks just to get this 1 node? Will I not have the option of levelling Engineering a little at a time as I need it? How is this not removing choice and making the game more grindy? Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Paladin Sas Ancient Exiles. General Tso's Alliance 379	Posted - 2014.05.14 18:25:00 - [114] - Quote i know im a little late to the party guys, but bear with me here. i like the idea of a simplified progression system, but i dont feel that its needed on the PC. without resorting to "fanboi" i feel that a simplified progression system is required on the console, due to the vast majority of gamers being younger in age, or to busy enjoying some hash-brownies to really take the time to understand progression. on the flip side PC gamers tend to be an older more mature crowd that tend to take the time to learn how something works, and i worry they may be insulted if you over simplify things. look at eve for an example, the learning curve on that game is brutal, even with all the new improvements they've made, and ten years later, its still growing and thriving. TL;DR i hope im wrong, but i think you guys might have the correct solution, on the wrong platform
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3304	Posted - 2014.05.14 18:29:00 - [115] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: I like the concept of 're-spec as negative skill training'. I.e. you decide you don't want Gallente Prototype Assault Riles any more, so you flag that as de-respecializing, then the SP used to buy that drains into your unallocated SP pool slowly. So, while you can definitely recoup all the SP you spent (I originally thought about only a percentage coming back, but that penalises honest mistakes, whereas FOTM players will just suck it up), getting that SP will take time, perhaps days or weeks to become available, which puts a massive crimp on FOTM-chasing. This is an innovative idea that I had not heard of or thought about before. CCP Z should definitely consider this. It could also have an cost that is proportional to the amount of skill points that get redirected. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 112	Posted - 2014.05.14 18:45:00 - [116] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: ...Matchmaking should be good, but not at the expense of the powerful versus not powerful struggle. You're trying to flip the "mass appeal" switch and sacrifice good gameplay for popularity (and in the office this translates to dollar signs). It won't work, your game isn't as polished as Titanfall or COD and knowing your development process it's never going to be. You pump out updates too fast, and your team is too small. I'm sorry, those are the facts. The casuals will see your game, and think "Oh, well this game is alright... Titanfall is better though" and they won't come back. They have no vested interest in Dust, EVE, and they won't have an interest in Legion either. The production value is what they care about, and it simply isn't there. Its core appeal is to a Machiavellian playerbase who ignores these facts because it allows them to live out a power fantasy regarding taking away other peoples toys and griefing those who are not in a strong position to defend themselves. If you try to build your game the other way and ignore these basic New Eden principles -- instead making fights "fair" -- you will pretty much just create another, lesser version of every other game in existence. I agree with the bold portion entirely. However, you're downplaying the diversity of Eve Online's appeal. Machiavellian game play is an option, its not the core. Its one of several approaches to the game. Some like building sandcastles, some like knocking them down, some like ruling. Eve Online appeals to all three, no one type of player is the "core." Legion can do the same. It needs to have the same broad appeal if CCP Z hopes to take advantage of the different opportunities for monetization those different styles of play offer.
Villanor Aquarius WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 182	Posted - 2014.05.14 18:47:00 - [117] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: SponkSponkSponk wrote: I like the concept of 're-spec as negative skill training'. I.e. you decide you don't want Gallente Prototype Assault Riles any more, so you flag that as de-respecializing, then the SP used to buy that drains into your unallocated SP pool slowly. So, while you can definitely recoup all the SP you spent (I originally thought about only a percentage coming back, but that penalises honest mistakes, whereas FOTM players will just suck it up), getting that SP will take time, perhaps days or weeks to become available, which puts a massive crimp on FOTM-chasing. This is an innovative idea that I had not heard of or thought about before. CCP Z should definitely consider this. It could also have an cost that is proportional to the amount of skill points that get redirected. That cost could be imperfect SP recovery. Perhaps only 90% of the original sp is converted.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3304	Posted - 2014.05.14 19:01:00 - [118] - Quote This quote sums the situation up very well. It is worth reading this again. Natu Nobilis wrote: Dust skill tree is incomplete. And i don-¦t mean "It-¦s ok but missing certain nodes because all the suits weren-¦t there", i mean incomplete in "It trashes the purpose of the skill tree". 1-3-5 to unlock basic-advanced-proto is a terrible way of using the tree. It-¦s counterintuitive, makes people hate the skills because they-¦re not seen as "The thing tht will give me that extra 2% so i can get the final blow instead of recieving it" or "the extra 3% i needed to make my kickassfitting that i played around for hours on my Dust fitting tool, without having to buy an implant for it" (Wish we had implants), but instead as that "Thing that unlocks shiny dropsuit" with absolutely no regard to the rest of the skills needed to use modules with the shiny dropsuit. How many people went straight for the dropsuit while still using basic modules? How many times they complained on the forums that their suit was nerfed, and that they wanted respec because of it? You think it was because the skilltree is complicated? No. It-¦s because the skill tree doesn-¦t serve much purpose other than unlocking things (instead of being it-¦s own ecosystem of positive feedback troughout any game modes) and because it was (is) incomplete! People like unlocking things because it-¦s an achievment. Doesn-¦t matter if i have the proper fitting, i have ALL THE BLACK PROTOTYPE SUITS, then i-¦m better than a militia guy, right? Wait, how did that milita guy killed me? I unlocked a better suit, why am i dying? This skilltree sucks. Trashing a system that was implemented badly and getting a new one opesn the possibility of instead making the bad tried system good, to get the whole fiasco again with the new one. Dumbing down is not necessarily better, specially when it removes the "Secret CCP Special Sauce" that is the wild range of possible fittings, that you said it won-¦t be the case anymore fort they will be linked to role. (Or was their unlocking?) While I agree with CCP Z that we should not be slaves to how things are done in EVE, I also donGÇÖt think we should throw out the aspects of DUST that worked. The Skill system in DUST had parts that worked, and parts that did not work. Why canGÇÖt we just threw out the parts that did not work, and keep the parts that did? I am fine with rejigging the parts which did not work (the unlock skills) into a system that works better. But I think throwing out the 5 level bonus skills is a big mistake. CCP Z has not yet explained how he is going to make his system non linear without making it a gruelling grind fest. The 5 level bonus system did that very well. With a active skill point system it is critical that the system be non linear, otherwise new players will not stand a chance. You ever try taking a level 10 character in WOW and attack a level 70 character? I donGÇÖt want that sort of imbalance in this game! Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3304	Posted - 2014.05.14 19:09:00 - [119] - Quote Garth Mandra wrote: CCP Z wrote: Quote: With a PC game can't you do both the new easy progression and keep the lvl 5 system so we can just get what we want since we know what we want. Yes we could keep the 5 levels. From the studies and the research we made on DUST, people seems to not understand it. ThatGÇÖs why we want to remove it. People didn't seem to understand it? Have you tried explaining it to them? I suspect that this can be solved with the NPE. I share the worries of dumbing down the skill tree and making it boring and restrictive. That is a good point. I run a Basic Training Corp. I never had any trouble explaining the skill system to people. Of course if I did not get to them before they maxed out Dropsuit Command there was not much I could do, so there definitely is some room for improvement. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Mia Romani Nexus Marines 103	Posted - 2014.05.14 19:13:00 - [120] - Quote I think the 5-point skill system only works if each and every skill provides some sort of passive bonus like it does in EVE Online. Without them, you're left with a bunch of "dead" skills, where buying a skill level that doesn't actually unlock an item just causes you to waste your SP.

Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3304	Posted - 2014.05.14 19:21:00 - [121] - Quote Joseph Ridgeson wrote: Also, the complete and total openness from you has been refreshing. I noticed it in the "DUST 514" Progression speech where someone just asked "How much of this is coming to DUST 514?" and you just said, completely without bullshit, "It is for Legion." That wasn't something that we were particularly happy to hear because of the "Is DUST totally dead then?" before Rouge was able to get the information out at the CCP keynote but the plan speaking, honesty that we have seen from you is nice. Same with this post. Even if it isn't things that we are necessarily happy to see, we all appreciate the fact that you are informing us as the Project moves forward. I second this, and would also like to say that I really appreciate us having this discussion before the anything is programmed. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Vell0cet Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad. 1976	Posted - 2014.05.14 19:34:00 - [122] - Quote CCP Z wrote: I donGÇÖt necessarily agree with the EVE example, it remains a really difficult progression system to understand. Legion is not and will not be EVE, even if both games share the same universe. We have many reasons justifying that choice: we are not the same business model (subscription vs free to play), we are not talking to the same target audience (hardcore MMO players vs Online FPS Players). That isnGÇÖt to say that their progression system isnGÇÖt great and applicable to EVE GÇô only that it does not necessarily fit the game we want Project Legion to become. I think that the new system will allow both: accessibility for new users to understand, while keeping the high level complexity of mix-matching modules, weapons and Dropsuits. Quote: I suspect that your proposed system may very well draw in more players, at least initially, but it will suffer the same fate as other MMOGÇÖs using more traditional skill progression systems, and players will get bored and burn out. We offer a much deeper and varied system than almost any MMO on the market, we are just trying to make it more accessible. Please feel free to add any other questions, IGÇÖll do my best to answer them all :) Z First I want to thank you for taking the time to read the Open Letter to CCP Rouge. I know it was very long, but there is a lot to cover. It takes courage to speak directly to challenging questions and for that I commend you. I think the above quotes really illustrate where we disagree. I have serious concerns about the financial viability of targeting a more casual player with Project Legion at the expense of your more hardcore fans. As much as I love New Eden and have invested in DUST 514, I have very little interest in playing the game of the nature youGÇÖre describing. I donGÇÖt think IGÇÖm alone. Now you may believe that by bringing in a flood of casual players it will more than make up for the losses from players like myself. There are some important points to consider with this strategy though. Not all players are equal. I donGÇÖt mean to sound like an elitist jackass (IGÇÖm a pretty friendly/likable guy) but from a marketing standpoint, not all players are equal. Trading one great player for ten casuals may look good on a spreadsheet, but it may actually be a terrible financial decision. By GÇ£great playerGÇ¥ I donGÇÖt mean a guy who is really talented at FPS gameplay, IGÇÖm talking about someone who is an asset to CCP. CCP often heralds the community as a huge part of itGÇÖs success. The fact that EVEGÇÖs deep skill system appeals to highly intelligent gamers is a big part of why that community is so amazing. You may have access to the demographics, but I suspect there is a hugely disproportionate percentage of people who work in the software and game design industries among your players, relative to the general gaming demographics. You have a disproportionately high number of what Malcom Gladwell refers to as GÇ£Connectors,GÇ¥ GÇ£Mavens,GÇ¥ and GÇ£SalesmenGÇ¥ in his book The Tipping Point. Complexity draws these kinds of players in, because simplicity is boring. How many players has CEOPyrex brought into the game through his YouTube channel? ThatGÇÖs a ton of free marketing which has a very real dollar figure equivalent. How many casual players would it take to replace one CEOPyrex over the course of a 10-year Project Legion career? The feedback from smart players has been invaluable in helping shape/improve EVE, and (to a more limited degree) DUST 514. When he runs events for his corpmates like racing LAVGÇÖs around the map to publish to the web, he is providing fresh content to those players, how many of them stick around and end up buying booster/AUR gear? The online FPS player (the more casual players you seem to be targeting) are more fickle than the more hardcore players. LetGÇÖs be brutally honest here. Project Legion could be really great, and might have some cool visual flair, but it will never be able to compete directly with the major gaming studios/publishers with budgets that dwarf yours and teams with decades of experience producing shiny/polished games for the same core audience. Sure there will be bleedover from one to the next, but these gamers are attracted to novelty, not depth and commitment. Eventually Project Legion wonGÇÖt be new anymore, and many will move on to the next shiny FPS that Activision, EA, or whoever pukes out (GÇ£Ninja Turles in Space with guns! COOL! Screw Project Legion, I want to be a ninja turtle!GÇ¥). ThereGÇÖs no way to compete with that and youGÇÖll go bankrupt trying to retain fickle players. This translates into a very real monetary impact. Here is a fictional User Story of the kind of player I think would be very valuable to have as your primary target demographic: GÇ£Jim is a 35-year-old freelance software consultant. He makes $120,000 annually and spends a lot of time traveling for work. He was an avid gamer growing up but doesnGÇÖt get much time to game these days, except on his laptop when traveling and late night after his wife and kids are asleep on his high-end gaming PC. He loved FPS games and RTS games that focused on building unique worlds and managing resources. This appeals to his desire to organize complexity and to feel like a creator. Jim has plenty of disposable income for gaming, but has little time to commit. EVEGÇÖs pricing model really appeals to him because he can accrue power in his character without the grind that other MMOGÇÖs require. He spends $50/month on his 2 subscriptions and in additional PLEX he sells to avoid grinding ISK to support his PvP habit. He occasionally blogs on gaming and has even posted a few videos on YouTube.GÇ¥ (continued) Best PvE idea ever!
Vell0cet Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad. 1976	Posted - 2014.05.14 19:36:00 - [123] - Quote Here is a fictional User Story of the kind of player IGÇÖm worried youGÇÖre targeting: GÇ£Billy is a 20-year old gamer. He loves FPS games. He has played every AAA FPS since 2010. He works at a rental car company and makes $45,000 annually. Much of his disposable income goes to gaming, although he tends to move from game-to-game within a few months. He never really cared for RPG games much because they were too complicated and slow-paced. Skyrim was tolerable because the skill tree was pretty easy, and there was some decent action, but Billy quickly finished the main quest and never bothered to finish the side missions. Billy skips cutscenes and doesnGÇÖt read dialog boxes. He has over a dozen viruses on his PC.GÇ¥ As someone who does marketing as part of my job description, I can tell you right now that Jim is a much more valuable customer than Billy. I would be willing to spend a lot more marketing dollars to attract players like Jim over players like Billy. You should design Project LegionGÇÖs progression system to appeal to Jim and design itGÇÖs interface and tutorials to make the game comprehensible to Billy. You obviously want BOTH players, but if you design the game in a way that only appeals to Billy, Project Legion will have a shelf-life comparable to existing FPS games (and not the 10+ years that EVE has enjoyed). There may be more people like Billy than Jim, but donGÇÖt be fooled into thinking you can grab them away from existing AAA FPS franchises for more than a few months after launch (and thatGÇÖs assuming you have a successful launchGÇöwhich is a BIG GÇ£ifGÇ¥). I have created a crude mockup of an GÇ£ISIS AnalogGÇ¥ just to show how you could work with the existing system to create a better UI and achieve many of the usability goals while still retaining the depth that keeps your valuable hardcore players interested. IGÇÖm intending to mock up a UI for the skill tree and perhaps a diagram of a re-architected skill tree that still retains the EVE-style 5-level system. Your concern that EVE is a different financial model is a bit misguided. EVE is free-to-play as well with the PLEX system. Why canGÇÖt we reduce the amount of unboosted passive and active SP gained by some percentage (maybe 30% or so) and increase the percentage of boosters by the same amount to make them a better value and more desirable? If we can buy/sell boosters on the market like PLEX then the systems will be very similar. Players can grind ISK to gain access to boosters, and players with more real money than time can sell them boosters for ISK. If you continue down this road, I want to warn you about the consequences. Here is an excerpt from a blog post In Which I Try to Speak Honestly About History written by a man named Dan Rubenfield, a Lead Game Designer for Star Wars Galaxies during the transition to the New Game Enhancement (widely viewed as one of the most catastrophic mistakes in online gaming history). HereGÇÖs the Wayback Machine link to the full post (The original link was giving me an error). Dan Rubenfield wrote: However, we made a mistake. A BIG mistake. Somewhere during the discussions it was strongly recommended that we streamline our characters. People wanted something simpler, more direct, more accessible. We told them. GÇ£If you do this, you will lose all of our subscribers. It is that significant.GÇ¥ The response was that we would gain more due to the marketing push and relaunch. So, we pushed forward. Here's my question: "What have you learned from the failures of the SWG NGE rollout that you can avoid the same fate happening to Project Legion?" Best PvE idea ever!
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 209	Posted - 2014.05.14 19:38:00 - [124] - Quote Sete Clifton wrote: Personally, it would be nice to see some kind of visual/graphical representation of the new progression system (both skills and items). I know there is the fanfest presentation, but I'm talking more about how it will specifically work. It's sort of hard for me to fully grasp the intricacies of this system, which in turn makes it difficult to discuss the vision as a whole. I fully get though that this is still pretty early, so a lot of that information probably doesn't even exist yet. I agree. It is difficult do discuss if we don't know the full picture. And by that I mean not only how and where everything fits on the skill tree, but also how this relates to the fitting concept (if it has changed?) as well as the market. All these are interconnected, and all the discussions right now assumes that the second two stays unmodified. If possible, CCP Z, could you please provide a (simple?) step by step concept of a new player starting to skill up the Logistics tree (the one that seemed most complete at fanfest), while demonstrating what options he would have in the fitting screen as a result of his selections, and how he would obtain said gear. If you like you could do this as DevBlog with nice pictures and logic diagrams (we all love those). As long as Legion will have: - Deep customization and options - Your actions and decisions matters and have consequences - Meaningful EVE Online link (corps and chat are not included in this statement) I am fine with anything you come up with... Ohh, BTW I forgot vehicles: will the long sought pilot suite be included in that skill tree?
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 210	Posted - 2014.05.14 20:12:00 - [125] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: I have created a crude mockup of an GÇ£ISIS AnalogGÇ¥ just to show how you could work with the existing system to create a better UI and achieve many of the usability goals while still retaining the depth that keeps your valuable hardcore players interested. IGÇÖm intending to mock up a UI for the skill tree and perhaps a diagram of a re-architected skill tree that still retains the EVE-style 5-level system. Absolutely love this! +1 (2 actually) I see that you have taken the concept of the Mastery levels from EVE as well (vehicles), which reminded me of an old post I made https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1849558#post1849558 I looking forward seeing the final UI mockup. Edit: Ohh CCP, his "Jim" analog could just have been a exact description of me...
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1297	Posted - 2014.05.14 20:30:00 - [126] - Quote Maybe I'm being a little over sensitive here but I'm beginning to detect a very disturbing undercurrent of dismissing 'casual players' as not being worthy enough or too stupid to join our game. I hope I'm misreading that. Attracting any demographic to try dust right now is an uphill struggle as it is. The retention rate is in low single figures right now. We need more players. We need them desperately. Player numbers are not going up and have plateaued for a year now. We need to look at any and all options to encourage player take up. And we can't afford to rule anything out as being above such change. They continue to carry on as they are then Dust/Legion is never going to get beyond what it is now. CCP are prepared to stick it out for the moment but not forever. I'm just being pragmatic here, I honestly am. We've had the current system for a year and numbers haven't grown. And it's not a question of a better NPE being needed, that's a given. But dedicating all of that NPE resource to teaching a complicated skill tree, when we can simplify the tree for new starters, make it work for the educated and combine the NPE with the PvE to teach how to actually play the game, to me is just a smarter way to do this. CCP resources aren't unlimited after all. A lot of this is going to looked at, polished and likely altered during the inevitable beta phase of Legion anyway. CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Mia Romani Nexus Marines 106	Posted - 2014.05.14 20:45:00 - [127] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: Maybe I'm being a little over sensitive here but I'm beginning to detect a very disturbing undercurrent of dismissing 'casual players' as not being worthy enough or too stupid to join our game. I hope I'm misreading that. I think that's a reaction from several players (myself included) perceiving an equally disturbing undercurrent of dismissing 'hardcore players' as not being valuable enough to include in the target demographic. Personally, I'd like to see some time spent on finding ways to leverage the enthusiasm of 'hardcore' players into helping generate content for 'casual' players. Two birds, one stone. That sort of thing.
Vell0cet Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad. 1982	Posted - 2014.05.14 20:48:00 - [128] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: Maybe I'm being a little over sensitive here but I'm beginning to detect a very disturbing undercurrent of dismissing 'casual players' as not being worthy enough or too stupid to join our game. I hope I'm misreading that. Attracting any demographic to try dust right now is an uphill struggle as it is. The retention rate is in low single figures right now. We need more players. We need them desperately. Player numbers are not going up and have plateaued for a year now. We need to look at any and all options to encourage player take up. And we can't afford to rule anything out as being above such change. They continue to carry on as they are then Dust/Legion is never going to get beyond what it is now. CCP are prepared to stick it out for the moment but not forever. I'm just being pragmatic here, I honestly am. We've had the current system for a year and numbers haven't grown. And it's not a question of a better NPE being needed, that's a given. But dedicating all of that NPE resource to teaching a complicated skill tree, when we can simplify the tree for new starters, make it work for the educated and combine the NPE with the PvE to teach how to actually play the game, to me is just a smarter way to do this. CCP resources aren't unlimited after all. A lot of this is going to looked at, polished and likely altered during the inevitable beta phase of Legion anyway. The fear is they're going to drive away their most valuable customers (like myself) in order to bring in new blood with the proposed changes. I'm honestly not trying to toot-my-own-horn here or try to make myself sound special on a video game forum, but I've spent hundreds of dollars on DUST and invested a lot of time and energy providing feedback. Until the announcement I was fully intending to continue to do so for years to come. There is a HUGE amount of value in having a customer like myself: smart, loyal, willing to spend, provides constructive feedback. I don't think players like myself are so easily replaced. Getting new players is absolutely essential to the future of a ground-based New Eden game, but doing so at the expense of your hardcore fan base would guarantee a short lifespan for Project Legion. I think the primary reason for the decline are usability issues, the fact that it was released on an already obsolete platform from day 1, the severe lack of polish, the slow pace of balancing, the abomination of a tutorial, throwing new players in with vets very early, having a game designed for at least 32 v 32 players capped out at 16 v 16.. The core of the game is actually pretty amazing, but very few people get to experience it. When you're having a good match in DUST 514, it's literally better than any other FPS game ever made, hands down. There is a depth and richness to combat that is simply unmatched anywhere else. Regarding the skill tree. Did you get a chance to see the ISIS mockup I cobbled together? The idea is new players could quickly get into a proto suit but would have to invest large amounts of SP to specialize down the road. Basic suits (I removed the racial variants for these) would focus on increasing survivability, but would lack bonuses to DPS, making them good general suits for new players. What are your thoughts? Best PvE idea ever!
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 210	Posted - 2014.05.14 20:57:00 - [129] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: Maybe I'm being a little over sensitive here but I'm beginning to detect a very disturbing undercurrent of dismissing 'casual players' as not being worthy enough or too stupid to join our game. I hope I'm misreading that. Attracting any demographic to try dust right now is an uphill struggle as it is. The retention rate is in low single figures right now. We need more players. We need them desperately. Player numbers are not going up and have plateaued for a year now. We need to look at any and all options to encourage player take up. And we can't afford to rule anything out as being above such change. They continue to carry on as they are then Dust/Legion is never going to get beyond what it is now. CCP are prepared to stick it out for the moment but not forever. I'm just being pragmatic here, I honestly am. We've had the current system for a year and numbers haven't grown. And it's not a question of a better NPE being needed, that's a given. But dedicating all of that NPE resource to teaching a complicated skill tree, when we can simplify the tree for new starters, make it work for the educated and combine the NPE with the PvE to teach how to actually play the game, to me is just a smarter way to do this. CCP resources aren't unlimited after all. A lot of this is going to looked at, polished and likely altered during the inevitable beta phase of Legion anyway. I think people reacting to change in general. I won't say I don't have doubts over this news progression system, but I think we all need to know more to have the full picture. The current progression system in Dust 514 is not complex in itself (it is a simple skill tree with 5 level nodes), but it's the combination of finding gear in the market, then checking prerequisites, then figuring out how much your core skills affect the values you are seeing (and not seeing) on the fitting screen which is daunting.
Azri Sarum BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 329	Posted - 2014.05.14 21:03:00 - [130] - Quote CCP Z wrote: 1st batch of answers: Quote: With a PC game can't you do both the new easy progression and keep the lvl 5 system so we can just get what we want since we know what we want. Yes we could keep the 5 levels. From the studies and the research we made on DUST, people seems to not understand it. ThatGÇÖs why we want to remove it. Quote: Respec Discussion Respec will have a gradually increasing cost, so your choices matter Could you elaborate on your studies of people understanding the skill system, because I'll be honest it does not make any sense to me. None what-so-ever. I say this because skill trees with nodes you put multiple points in has been a staple of games for quite some time. Just do a google image search for mmo skill tree and you will find dozens of examples, from wow, to rift, to star wars. I think their presentations were better, with icons depicting what the node did, but I think the general concept is very familiar. Have you considered working on the presentation instead of ripping out a very interesting skill system? Now, as to the respec. I'm against it in principle because its not keeping with the spirit of New Eden. One of the core aspects that defines the universe and makes it oh so interesting is that your choices matter, and are persistant. It does have some valid arguments for it though, and I've wanted one from time to time, so i wont be surprised to see it become a reality. If you do implement a respec system, could you at least design some gameplay around it? Let certain drones have a chance at dropping a unique piece of circuitry that allows remapping of one node before burning out. Tradeable on the market of course. Think less systems, more sand in the sandbox . This is what path of exile did to enable respects. It made it expensive, but was at least an option. It also made it much easier to undo single mistakes. EVE - Victor Maximus DUST - Azri Sarum

Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3306	Posted - 2014.05.14 21:14:00 - [131] - Quote You would not believe how many people I have encountered who thought that all Snipers should ware the Scout suit because the Sniper in the early DUST ads is in a Scout suit. With the role system in place, the masses are going to react to any attempt at thinking outside the box with scorn and suspicion, because CCP told us all what roles to play and how to setup our suit. Of course, being a rebel has a certain appeal... Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Tallen Ellecon 1924	Posted - 2014.05.14 21:17:00 - [132] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: You would not believe how many people I have encountered who thought that all Snipers should ware the Scout suit because the Sniper in the early DUST ads is in a Scout suit. With the role system in place, the masses are going to react to any attempt at thinking outside the box with scorn and suspicion, because CCP told us all what roles to play and how to setup our suit. Of course, being a rebel has a certain appeal... Ironically I use a shotgun in a heavy suit and snipe in a scout suit.
Forlorn Destrier 2503	Posted - 2014.05.14 21:47:00 - [133] - Quote I use a Minmatar Basic Medium frame for the high slots in the rare occasion that I snipe.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3308	Posted - 2014.05.14 21:51:00 - [134] - Quote Starlight Burner wrote: I still fail to see how any of this is related to DUST 514. I strongly remember this being the DUST 514 forums for the DUST 514 PlayStation Exclusive. CCP Z still hasn't answered anything that pertains to the advancements of DUST 514 and nor has any of the other devs. Why doesn't CCP do something right for once? Maybe because CCP means Consistently Causing Problems? Go make a darn(m) LEGION forum. The Legion forum is here for the same reason there is a DUST 514 sub forum on the EVE Online Forums. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
byte modal 74	Posted - 2014.05.14 21:58:00 - [135] - Quote CCP Z wrote: Quote: With a PC game can't you do both the new easy progression and keep the lvl 5 system so we can just get what we want since we know what we want. Yes we could keep the 5 levels. From the studies and the research we made on DUST, people seems to not understand it. ThatGÇÖs why we want to remove it. First, this is my first time reading through this thread so my apologies for jumping in at this point if someone else has already addressed it. I will continue reading, but wanted to mark this before losing it in the 7 or so pages that are still growing. Too, even if it is already commented on or discussed, at least my post may help reinforce anyone else's post on this specific topic. With that said, it seems illogical to me the cause and effect relationship used as justification for the new progression concept---or at least the removal of the current progression. Perhaps I am misunderstanding (likely) or simply do not have access to all data sources used to come to this conclusion (highly likely), but it seems to me short-sighted to remove something because players do not understand something. I understand that confusion may lead to frustration which, in turn, may lead to a poor gaming experience that may cause uninstalls, account cancellations, or potentially bad PR. I get that. I also understand that perhaps a larger portion of the player base may find the current system (or another similarly designed progression, i.e., EVE: Online) confusing---larger than I assume. I don't have stats. What I understand more though, is that confusion is inevitable without education. I have a feeling (based on closed beta experience; watching the community play, react, and criticize; CCP's consistency to be seemingly selective over their methods of communication with IRC-island discussions over forum threads [I still love you, CCP, in my special codependent way]; and the mass of player-led educational resources), that LEGION may suffer similar pains as DUST514 because the core issue is not being addressed still. Why do you think players have taken it upon themselves to create tutorial threads, blogs, and videos? Obviously they love the game and wish to give back to the community to see the potential of this game realized, but more I think it's because it simply does not exist in-game. Are players confused as to what weapon, suit, skill, etc., they should choose to accomplish long-term X, Y, or Z goals? You're damn right they are because nothing has been explained to the new player what does what, or what to do with your NON-EXCHANGEABLE skill points before dropping them forever into something that just sounds like a bad-arse thing like Swarm Launchers. As someone posted recently, the first screen for each item we see is lore instead of what the function and specs are of that particular gear. Even still, not all of the specs are listed that could be used to make an informed decision. No guidance is given on where your skill points really come from, that they are non-refundable, how to navigate the market and research the PREREQUISITES of your gear before purchasing them only to find you cannot fit them---assuming the new player is able to figure out how to navigate the fitting screen. A core problem is new player experience, and the severe lack of educational development. Sure, players are providing this---in a vacuum left by CCP---and new users can research quite a bit of material to learn if they choose to do so. What new player is going to know how to do this? What new player is going to bother? While I accept that perhaps this in and of itself may not resolve the overlying issue that your progression change is aiming for, education is sorely lacking. Education will go a long way to bridge the gap. This is something that has been requested since Closed Beta and will be needed regardless of whatever skill progression is decided upon. If not, then I'm honestly not sure what good a redesign will do. Forest for the tree type stuff, this is. With a new system not heeding the dangers and warnings of a lacking educational experience for new players, not only do you risk maintaining the same level of new player confusion, but you also risk alienating the older experienced players that have built characters on a relative standard for two or so years. The support and experience that that player base can offer is very strong, in spite of the petulant rantings flooding the DUST514 GD forums currently. I love DUST. I hope to love LEGION at least equally, SoonTM. Perhaps I'm way off base here, that happens a lot, trust me; but it just feels off, at best, to use resources to rewrite something that could be better resolved by taking a bit of time to educate the new player. That's not to say the current system is perfect, far from it. Sorry, I wanted to put that out so as not to sound so one-sided here. I come from EVE. There was a lot done in DUST514 that made me twitch in doubt and wonder as to how anything in the EVE universe could be.... this far removed from its own origins. I hope Legion doesn't dare go farther down that path and away from the core that is its big sister, EVE. ......... Eh, I've gone on too long. I hope you take my meaning in all of this and that you (someone? anyone?) actually made it through :) Love you all over there, and hope for the best. Trying hard not to be jaded, so please forgive me if I come across as such. I actually am very excited to see what Legion may become. meow. and all that. - me. Irony: Post #35
Vell0cet Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad. 1992	Posted - 2014.05.14 22:11:00 - [136] - Quote byte modal wrote: [quote=CCP Z] Perhaps I'm way off base here, that happens a lot, trust me; but it just feels off, at best, to use resources to rewrite something that could be better resolved by taking a bit of time to educate the new player. You're not off base at all. I think you're right on the money (literally and figuratively). I thought the same thing about their internal tests. Of course they're going to be confused if they haven't been educated about how the system works. Once you get the basic idea, it's actually pretty easy to grasp. An "ISIS" equivalent would do wonders here. Best PvE idea ever!
byte modal 75	Posted - 2014.05.14 22:27:00 - [137] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: byte modal wrote: [quote=CCP Z] Perhaps I'm way off base here, that happens a lot, trust me; but it just feels off, at best, to use resources to rewrite something that could be better resolved by taking a bit of time to educate the new player. You're not off base at all. I think you're right on the money (literally and figuratively). I thought the same thing about their internal tests. Of course they're going to be confused if they haven't been educated about how the system works. Once you get the basic idea, it's actually pretty easy to grasp. An "ISIS" equivalent would do wonders here. Not to try to farm a like or two in conversation, but yeah, you're right. I come from EVE. I've already been put through the ringer over there in DAYS worth of tutorials and "wtf" spasms. Porting over to DUST514, while awkward at first due to its differences, was pretty easy to grasp---ONLY BECAUSE I WAS ALREADY TAUGHT HOW TO THINK THIS WAY!!! I can't even begin to imagine what an ignorant new player is facing. That's ignorant as in without understanding, not stupid. Now I don't think that DUST needs such an elaborate tutorial system as EVE, but there needs to be more than nothing. No, I don't really count those 3 or so academy accomplishments as educational. Before I'm even placed into the academy, put me in a firing range with all militia weapons available to test fire on dumb targets. That would tie in enough to the FPS shooter thought process and provide a free experience with militia-grade weapons. click each to read a brief 2-line description at most, an option to test fire, a link to a visual representation of that weapon's skill tree path (think EVE certificates in concept, but not so damn nerdy and spreadsheet-esque) explaining a general purpose of progression and how that ties to upper tier variants, and finally an option to purchase through market. Be allowed to come back at ANY time, from merc quarters, to test any gear you may have previously had no interest in. Literally, a walk-in closet to try stuff out. Sounds familiar... where have I read this at....... TEACH US! Build it and they will come. Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach a man to fish, and that man will be able to build a better fitting and will be less likely to rage-quit down the road. Just sayin'. <3<3<3 - me. Irony: Post #35
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3309	Posted - 2014.05.14 22:36:00 - [138] - Quote The target audience for Legion should be people who have been playing FPS or MMO games for years and are looking for a deeper more fulfilling experience. - There are a lot of people who have played these games for years. - These players are years older and more likely to be financially independent. (AUR Sales.) - These players are looking for a greater commitment. - These players are too jaded to run off after every new shiny game that comes out. - These players are the ones who are active across multiple media. (Free advertising.) - These are the players that new gamers look up to and want to emulate. Although, all that being said, I have met plenty of young players who felt DUST was more interesting than other FPS games they had played, and I donGÇÖt think this will change with Legion. Even among young players there are those who seek a higher intellectual standard. Catering the veteran gamer will not preclude plenty of young players finding it interesting as well. The stuff adults design for themselves are often more fun that stuff adults design for kids. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Tallen Ellecon 1925	Posted - 2014.05.14 23:13:00 - [139] - Quote It appears that the direction see Legion going in terms of skill progression is..... Sandbox to them means no hand holding so we opt for intuitive progression over deep customization. This frees up the resources required towards an ISIS or tutorial system that aids ALL players. It's very flawed and it's a solution that won't bring any longevity. NPE is on the top of my list for priorities, if people don't play, there is nobody to play with and nobody to pay for the game, pretty simple. Dust had issues with showing new players the ropes and getting them into it, I know this personally because I'd spend hours with new recruits explaining everything they'd need to know before skilling into something, The system itself wasn't totally flawed, but other mechanics definitely were. Things that hurt NPE in Dust now. A) Handing them a bunch of precious SP, and not explaining the best way to spend it. This I believe is what you're trying to remedy, but it wasn't the skill tree itself, but a couple of other factors. 1) Obvious imbalance of weapons, this made investing in things like a Plasma Cannon or Laser Rifle early on a burden. 2) Lack of PVE or testing grounds made it impossible to try things without investing in them. With PVE a weapon only needs to be powerful enough to destroy an AI target, not necessarily another veteran player who is prepared to survive 3) Having SP sink gates in, such as the basic frame skill, dropsuit command, etc. etc. adds more useless content and unnecessary confusion B) Lack of in depth tutorial or resources. 1) Add an ISIS or certificate/mastery system, this is a feature that is very useful to both new and old players alike. The proposed progression system can reach the same goal with references such as these, without forcing someone down a linear path they may not like as it progresses. 2) The battle academy was a joke, if PVE is what you all have in mind, just make a basic tutorial system with PVE. Add an academy later so people can practice at their own pace. 3) Make finding a corp easier, get comms everywhere. On a PC it's easier to type in a help chat, make it easily accessible throughout the start. C) Lack of gamemodes and matchmaking 1) Keep new players away from groups like Nyain San. If casual new players and end of game veterans don't have the option or incentive to play separate from each other you will retain no new players. 2) Again, PVE is vital. Casual and Co Op play needs to exist for those who want an escape and not a second job. Things that new system hurts. A) Deep customization, honestly you can try to simplify and dumb down everything for more players, but they won't last like they have in EVE. Linear progression creates a grind to the top scheme, which only ends with reaching the top and either 1) Starting all over again from the bottom of a new path 2) Leaving. B) Ownership of role and setup. My favorite heavy setup is a speed tanked Gallente Shotgunner. It fits the lore and the mechanic in EVE. That setup is outside the traditional role, but whenever I start singing "shotgun heavy" in my old timey blues tone, my corp knows what I'm talking about. If that setup requires extra progression or two separate paths to work into, you define what each role should be and leave a lot of fun creativity out which isneeded for a sandbox. C) Customization isn't just discouraged, it's prohibited. EVE ships all carry bonuses towards certain weapons and modules helping them to maximize a role, but you don't need to spec into Amarr frigates to use energy weapons. From the start I can make Gallente frigates shooting lasers and nothing will stop me. The ISIS and mastery systems would recommend I use Hybrid weapons and the role bonuses are best used with the recommended guns, but they aren't exclusive. D) Still no EVE style tiericide, make progression be more about specialization and customization than simply getting better versions of previous things. These create an SP sink for older players without making lower SP players completely outmatched. I don't mean to be repetitive this stuff has been stated over and over again, but it's imperative that Legion learns from the problems of Dusts NPE and see the strengths of EVE and Dusts skill progression. CCP Z I know your intentions are good, and you are reacting to the issues you and your "test groups" had with Dust and the NPE, but there are ways to get people to stay longer than the first couple of hours that don't stand in the way of what makes people want to stay for years. We're all here to help make Legion the sandbox we all dream of and we thank you for the feedback.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3311	Posted - 2014.05.14 23:22:00 - [140] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: Maybe I'm being a little over sensitive here but I'm beginning to detect a very disturbing undercurrent of dismissing 'casual players' as not being worthy enough or too stupid to join our game. I hope I'm misreading that. We are saying that if you target hardcore players (while trying to accommodate casual players), then casual players will flock around each of the Hardcore players. How many casual players have stayed with DUST because of you and I? If they target casual players and make the game uninteresting for hardcore players, then the hardcore players will leave, and then the casual players will not have anything to latch onto and they will leave as well. If I feel like there is nothing left to learn in the game, I will leave, and find a new game to learn. I like games were I am constantly learning and being challenged. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.

Tallen Ellecon 1926	Posted - 2014.05.14 23:42:00 - [141] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Kevall Longstride wrote: Maybe I'm being a little over sensitive here but I'm beginning to detect a very disturbing undercurrent of dismissing 'casual players' as not being worthy enough or too stupid to join our game. I hope I'm misreading that. We are saying that if you target hardcore players (while trying to accommodate casual players), then casual players will flock around each of the Hardcore players. How many casual players have stayed with DUST because of you and I? If they target casual players and make the game uninteresting for hardcore players, then the hardcore players will leave, and then the casual players will not have anything to latch onto and they will leave as well. If I feel like there is nothing left to learn in the game, I will leave, and find a new game to learn. I like games were I am constantly learning and being challenged. I like to think of myself as a middle ground player, slightly more towards the hardcore. I see exactly where Vell0cet is coming from and from a business perspective he is totally right. From a gameplay perspective though the whole point of F2P game is that though people may not all be paying, they add more to the content. Especially in a sandbox more active bodies working in the world is better than a few highly invested ones..... you need both. This is where the challenge is and balance has to be made. Give any player enough tools to understand the in depth mechanics from a practical sense and they don't necessarily have to invest a lot of time, effort, and money to help the game. TF2 is a perfect example of a F2P game I can pick up every couple of months, get into, play for awhile, and leave. TF2 has the F2P in depth longevity versus casual play balance figured out, and I think both Legion and Valkyrie are looking at that as a reference. The hard core players pay most of the funds while the casual players fuel the content, in a sense a win win. If they want to simplify the interface, tutorial system, and have an ISIS equivalent without dumbing down or streamlining the skill tree itself I think they could draw in both types of players.
Pseudogenesis Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 178	Posted - 2014.05.14 23:45:00 - [142] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: CCP Blowout wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: Thanks for the post CCP Z, however this is not a discussion, this is you motivating your ideas towards the community. Spectral-¦s Rant #1: Why Common/Uncommon/Rare is not good enough https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2158804#post2158804 Spectral-¦s Rant #2: Accessible skill tree without dumbing it down https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2158807#post2158807 Hey, I didn't link you here just so you could link back to your other threads This will become a discussion when you start discussing things. I think CCP Z has done a great job for a first post here and a lot of new info has come out. Get involved, Spectral Clone! I will be engaged for sure. Nobody here wants a new CoD/WoW MMOFPS in New Eden. I-¦m not saying this to be evil towards CCP Z or anyone at CCP. The fact is simple, if we wanted to play WoW or CoD, we would not be your customers paying for this vision. I do! \o/ ... o/ ..... o Yeah never mind Stabby-stabber extraordinaire
Mr m4gic XSKvLLX 58	Posted - 2014.05.14 23:46:00 - [143] - Quote it sounds like legion is becoming more like fallout with a few extras, which would be good :) Have you seen my baseball??
Fenix Alexarr BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 108	Posted - 2014.05.14 23:53:00 - [144] - Quote Welcome to the forums Z. Your presentation on changing the skill system in Dust actually made my head spin (in a horrible way) when I saw it at work. I have also seen a lot of feedback about keeping the current skill system. 5 lvls, SP, ISIS type trees... I'm wondering how many people who play aren't here to tell you what a poor decision it would be to gut the current skill system. The general sentiment I've read throughout the forums has been disbelief that the current system would change so radically, because it would make no sense to the players that have invested time/energy/dollars/isk/blood/sweat/tears/hardware into a game that stands heads and shoulders above other games as a direct result of the skill progression system. I don't mind the presentation of the new 'suggested trees'. Those are useful and most games have similar things (RIFT comes to mind immediately) The problem that I have with your new system is that it would effectively turn Dust/Legion into all of the other shooters out there that rise and fall in popularity by locking items behind a common archetype layout. I realize COD and BFx have a formula that makes them money. They ride the waves of popularity and invest quite heavily in hooking players on a system that is constantly changing and forcing people to restart the grind every release (new game). Dust/Legion cannot survive their model of progression. We need the current system to stay mostly in tact if we are to hold the attention of players for more than a few months (see tribes:ascension). Our waves of popularity come from rebalances (iterations on expansions). We don't have a new iteration of a game where skills/gear/ranks get reset every few months. Leaving the ability to skill into something totally off the wall from the normal archetypes in FPS games is literally the strongest pull for new players to Dust. Taking that away removes any incentive to cope with the other constant issues that this development studio has with building their first shooter. Please reconsider your position. I see it as a very vocal minority that is causing you to push for this simplification. Your long term players will not stick around for a game like you propose when there are so many direct alternatives that have piles of polish on them. The optimal solution I see is that your new progression trees become polite suggestions and that the gear/skill progression remains almost exactly the same. Use this time to improve the NPE to make sure that all players start out with the same basic knowledge to most effectively use the tools you're giving them. Anything short of that will probably not help the current situation with regards to players confidence in Legion as a long-term investment.
crazy space 1 GunFall Mobilization 2554	Posted - 2014.05.15 00:06:00 - [145] - Quote CCP Z wrote: Quote: With a PC game can't you do both the new easy progression and keep the lvl 5 system so we can just get what we want since we know what we want. Yes we could keep the 5 levels. From the studies and the research we made on DUST, people seems to not understand it. ThatGÇÖs why we want to remove it. So are you saying this is CCPs stance on Eve online as well? The skill system is too complacated? You know CCP are trying to advertise Legion, EvE, Valkyrie as a game where one day you'll log into all three from one account. If you want to keep the system SIMPLE then you need to go with the same skill system for both games. Create any system different from eve online will just add added complexity to the eve universe no one asked for and no one needs Point 2. In dust most skills don't actully do much. The level 5 system has nothing to do with why player can not understand the skill system. I can bring up zero posts from the closed beta period on these forums that would lead me to believe anyone had a problem with Light weapon reload +3% Reload per level for all light weaons You went and replaced it with a complex sideays skill tree system that did nothing but make dust more condfusing and harder to unerstand. Now you are using the studies and the research your team got off of how console gamers couldn't understood your unasked for, and might I add unannounced, current progression system we currently have in dust. The reason no one understands the skill system in Dust is becuase it is nothing like eve. Your data is flawed and coming from a really strange view point. I feel like you don't understand something, if it doesn't have the same skill system as eve, people that play eve online won't play Legion.
crazy space 1 GunFall Mobilization 2554	Posted - 2014.05.15 00:12:00 - [146] - Quote The point CCP Z is you are talking as if you were making Legion a Console MMOFPS, you are not. You are moving to PC, no one will be confused.
Ender Storm Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 132	Posted - 2014.05.15 00:16:00 - [147] - Quote I feel like we wont have a "Rifter" suit like in Legion. I very much would desire that gear would matter less than experience, as in EVE where a low SP pilot still has utility within a vet fleet.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8556	Posted - 2014.05.15 00:23:00 - [148] - Quote Overall, if I want to be a Scout suit and I want to use a Mass Driver on it then I should be able to train up the Scout suit and the Mass Driver without ever needing to train up the Logistics suit in order to use the Mass Driver. I don't ever want to be forced into another suit I won't use just to gain access to a weapon that I like. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Hammerhead LandSharkX Liberum Sapiens Xenodochi 16	Posted - 2014.05.15 00:25:00 - [149] - Quote CCP Z wrote: If you look at the tree that I showed during the presentation, basic weapons for all classes will be available early in the progression so you will be able to try them fairly easily (or quickly if you prefer). But yes, we are making the Progression more difficult. Right now, within a couple of weeks of play, you can basically create your ultimate Fitting and never do anything else. in regards to the part I underlined... could you elaborate on how progression will be 'more difficult' yet 'more accessible'? By 'more difficult' do you mean it is going to take longer to skill into a fully defined role? Do you intend for it to take longer for people to cap out in a respective role's skills or to achieve a role specific fitting...both? Do you intend for it to take longer or somehow be more difficult to be able to switch roles through different fittings? for what it's worth i'm of a strong opinion that players should be able to experiment easily at a low level/tier/etc with their progression and fitting variety...while it could spike increasingly in difficulty/time as they specialize deeper into roles/skills. I feel the current pace at which players can unlock basic suits/modules/weapons in dust514 is pretty close to where it should be-while reaching high end suits/modules/weapons/passives could reasonably use some tweaking (increased time/difficulty). CCP Z wrote: Quote: I would want to know why the current skill system could not be a base for EVE Legion with a UI overlay guiding players into roles? Has a investigation of this been done? Re-watch the presentation, both Progression systems are not that far away from each other. If the progression systems are not that far away from each other-is it not a good idea to try and carry over the current skill system as much as possible to ease the transfer of characters from dust to legion? Couldn't this be done in conjunction with your re-defined roles as the aforementioned ui overlay like ISIS & EVE certificates or some other 'new player friendly' possibly more automatic tree guidance system. Thus allowing both to exist-where one (yours) streamlines the other (current) but does not force everyone to adhere to it? I realize it's unfair of me to assume this without fully seeing an outline of the revamped tree...but taking the 'starter fits' from dust514 as an example...It's hard to trust predefined roles as the primary way to progress. I believe allowing the current skill system to remain the base is a good way to allow for the continued freedom and creativity of the playerbase to thrive while introducing and refining a way to draw in newer and less 'skill tree oriented' players to progress with ease on top of that base.
Hammerhead LandSharkX Liberum Sapiens Xenodochi 17	Posted - 2014.05.15 01:10:00 - [150] - Quote oops

Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8558	Posted - 2014.05.15 01:43:00 - [151] - Quote @CCP Z Is it ok if you can post the entire skill tree you have planned right now? And I mean all of it even though it's just an early concept and is probably subject to change by the time Legion gets the green light. I need to see it all to get the whole context of what you're trying to achieve. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1533	Posted - 2014.05.15 01:56:00 - [152] - Quote No to the new progression system. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.

CCP Z C C P C C P Alliance 43	Posted - 2014.05.15 02:08:00 - [153] - Quote Quote: for what it's worth i'm of a strong opinion that players should be able to experiment easily at a low level/tier/etc with their progression and fitting variety...while it could spike increasingly in difficulty/time as they specialize deeper into roles/skills. Yes, that is exactly what we are aiming for: easy at the beginning, so you understand all roles, what is their role on the battlefield and what items are associated to it; but specializing will take a lot longer and you will have to make difficult choices along the way (Cost of SP increasing as you go down a path) Quote: I feel the current pace at which players can unlock basic suits/modules/weapons in dust514 is pretty close to where it should be-while reaching high end suits/modules/weapons/passives could reasonably use some tweaking (increased time/difficulty). ThatGÇÖs where I donGÇÖt agree. The Current system is too fast, too many weapons, modules, drop suits given away to quickly. Quote: Posting the skill tree It will take a while before it happens. Just imagine, you are in a room with 3,000 people, you state your opinion, or explain your idea (a complex one, like all trees for all roles), and all 3,000 people start screaming at once to give feedback, opinion, comments GÇª it is just not constructive. I will be as transparent with you guys as I can, but CPM will be representing the Community for these matters and helping us design all the new systems for Legion. Quote: Methodology Discussion No I will not discuss how the test was made. Seriously guys. Do you think we want to change things for the fun of it. We identified several issues that make Dust 514 less enjoyable, we are now trying to fix them for Legion Quote: I think the above quotes really illustrate where we disagree. I have serious concerns about the financial viability of targeting a more casual player with Project Legion at the expense of your more hardcore fans. As much as I love New Eden and have invested in DUST 514, I have very little interest in playing the game of the nature youGÇÖre describing. I donGÇÖt think IGÇÖm alone. Now you may believe that by bringing in a flood of casual players it will more than make up for the losses from players like myself. There are some important points to consider with this strategy though. We are not trying to bring casual players in the game, we are trying to open the game to more players and not only create a niche game (as DUST is currently). If we want Legion to live, it has to provide an amazing experience but also be a financial success. Being a free to play Shooter on PC, we have to reach out to a bigger target audience than for the Console version if we want it to be successful Quote: The online FPS player (the more casual players you seem to be targeting) are more fickle than the more hardcore players. LetGÇÖs be brutally honest here. Project Legion could be really great, and might have some cool visual flair, but it will never be able to compete directly with the major gaming studios/publishers with budgets that dwarf yours and teams with decades of experience producing shiny/polished games for the same core audience I donGÇÖt necessarily agree here. Money spent and team size are not the only factors. Innovation and user experience are what we are aiming for. Create a different game (sandbox Wild PVE/PVP) with a polished experience (more accessible, better UI, better immersion) will make us successful Quote: Your concern that EVE is a different financial model is a bit misguided. EVE is free-to-play as well with the PLEX system. Why canGÇÖt we reduce the amount of unboosted passive and active SP gained by some percentage (maybe 30% or so) and increase the percentage of boosters by the same amount to make them a better value and more desirable? If we can buy/sell boosters on the market like PLEX then the systems will be very similar. Players can grind ISK to gain access to boosters, and players with more real money than time can sell them boosters for ISK. I have not presented the new Monetization system for Legion. We will be very far away from what DUST currently is (no gear/items for AURUM, players who donGÇÖt want to spend money will still have access to all GÇ£paidGÇ¥optionsGÇª). I will create a separate thread when I am ready to have this discussion Again, as I said in the presentation and in this thread: the level of customization remains the same as in DUST, we are changing the way it is presented to all players. Monetization and Progression Producer -CCP Z

Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8560	Posted - 2014.05.15 02:19:00 - [154] - Quote Ok, I think I'm starting to understand more. But I'll still wait to see first what you present in the skill tree when that's ready. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A Caps and Mercs 486	Posted - 2014.05.15 02:24:00 - [155] - Quote If there was ANY kind of market, there wouldn-¦t be a need to scrap aurum weapons if we could simply trade isk <->aurum. If you guys are going to change all the things that were half-implemented, then we-¦re going to get an entirely different game. Well, i guess now it-¦s just wait for the presentation of the plans, and when that happens, there-¦s not much to be done about it. In the end, i just hope it-¦s a fun game with meaning, because persistency is lacking in the market.
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2276	Posted - 2014.05.15 02:24:00 - [156] - Quote According to Frame, I'm supposed to leave my opinions here instead of making a thread, but I've already done that (lol), so I'll just make it short and sweet: This seems like it just restricts the people who does get it, and that's a no no in the eyes of myself and pretty much almost everyone else. We want to unlock what we want on our own made path, not how someone else wants us to (you know, because New Eden is about choice). Obviously not everyone won't get it, so do what every single teacher gets paid for: teach the people who don't via tutorial. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1534	Posted - 2014.05.15 02:32:00 - [157] - Quote Hey CCP Z, I found a great example of an online game with an accessible skill system that doesn't sacrifice any depth! I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4089	Posted - 2014.05.15 02:38:00 - [158] - Quote [quote=CCP Z] Quote: We are not trying to bring casual players in the game, we are trying to open the game to more players and not only create a niche game (as DUST is currently). If we want Legion to live, it has to provide an amazing experience but also be a financial success. Being a free to play Shooter on PC, we have to reach out to a bigger target audience than for the Console version if we want it to be successful Sorry to hear that, because you won't get a bigger audience. More FPS players are on console right now. That's the largest target audience. PC is where you go when you are trying to build a niche of intelligent, dedicated players. You've got your hat on backwards friend. Your game didn't flop just because it was hard to understand, it flopped because it ran like crap, it looked like crap, the geometry was buggy, the aiming mechanics were horrible for the longest time, the vehicle physics were an abomination, the rendering distances were unacceptable, the ambush/deathmatch mode was horrendously broken, the skirmish mode played out for way too long during one sided matches, and every build had horrendous balance favoring roughly two weapons of choice -- sometimes that weapon being not a weapon, but a vehicle. A new player took one look at the game, laughed his ass off at what a complete and utter catastrophe of game development it was and went on his merry way to another product like CoD, Battlefield or Titanfall. Any of those games were, and are, better choices. The only reason you retained any players AT ALL is because of that complexity. So I would recommend you embrace that core audience and start worshipping the complexity that retained them. If you want a window for new players to get into the game, I recommend you keep the Dust system as it is but add a visual aid similar to ISIS for new players. That helps to solve player stupidity and doesn't change a thing for the people who don't enjoy your new ideas.
Aqil Aegivan The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 330	Posted - 2014.05.15 02:49:00 - [159] - Quote CCP Z wrote: Again, as I said in the presentation and in this thread: the level of customization remains the same as in DUST, we are changing the way it is presented to all players. Unless customization is as easy as it is in Dust514 then no, it isn't of the same level.
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 501	Posted - 2014.05.15 02:52:00 - [160] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: @CCP Z Is it ok if you can post the entire skill tree you have planned right now? And I mean all of it even though it's just an early concept and is probably subject to change by the time Legion gets the green light. I need to see it all to get the whole context of what you're trying to achieve. That's not a bad idea. I'm going to want the best ACR, SMG, and Swarm Launcher (AV option). If you unlock the Swarm Launcher with the Caldari Commando, then you should expect everyone to train it up...unless AV is it's own role tree. "Bringing back prerequisite skills" is a brilliant critique of the actual end result of the new SP treadmill. Do you think those same quitters who thought the current skill tree was bad will like the extra SP sinks the role tree will represent? No, they just want to be competitive and have the best gun with no investment of time or effort. The real strength of the Eve 5 level skill is exponentially increasing SP for linear gains in proficiency. This allows new players to reach level 4, with +20% in X instead of +25% for the vet who has invested twice as much SP. CCP screwed that up with Dust 514, and you should try to fix it...by reducing the disparities caused by all the L5 prerequisites for essential armaments. Less SP to reach a competitive fit will improve casual appeal. I admit that I'm in favor of a massive SP treadmill, because it will discourage casuals more than anything else, the opposite of what you say you are trying to achieve (need to achieve?). What's worse is that they will be locked into their "roles" and the hardcore gamers will have already skilled into every custom role that could hard-counter all of the cookie-cutter role options. I Guarantee It. There will be bullets. ACR+SMG [CEO of Terror]

Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1536	Posted - 2014.05.15 02:52:00 - [161] - Quote I strongly suggest that EVE: Legion adopt a progression system that mirrors EVE Online. I don't see why not. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.

CCP Z C C P C C P Alliance 44	Posted - 2014.05.15 03:01:00 - [162] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: I strongly suggest that EVE: Legion adopt a progression system that mirrors EVE Online. I don't see why not. And I am strongly working doing the opposite for the reasons stated 20 times in this thread :) Monetization and Progression Producer -CCP Z

Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4093	Posted - 2014.05.15 03:04:00 - [163] - Quote Alright so, to consolidate my thoughts on the issue without the emotional baggage attached. 1. Drop the idea that dropsuits are not destroyed upon death. This is a bad idea, nobody really likes it. It doesn't help new players and it pisses your existing ones off. Lose it. 2. "Class" Skill trees are a good idea in that they help new players, but a bad idea in that they restrict veterans. And Veterans are the ones who pay your bills. We spend the most. I spent more than $160 on Dust, and that game was terrible. Tell you something? It should. 3. ISIS in EVE is the model you want to aim for. It is a brilliant system and simply needs to be integrated into the NPE so new players can know EXACTLY what they are getting into. Give them a recommended, BUT NOT REQUIRED path to success. 4. With an ISIS equivalent implemented, you can safely leave the Dust skill system alone so long as it is fully accessible outside of ISIS. Now, what exact problems would you see with doing this CCP Z?
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1536	Posted - 2014.05.15 03:07:00 - [164] - Quote CCP Z wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: I strongly suggest that EVE: Legion adopt a progression system that mirrors EVE Online. I don't see why not. And I am strongly working doing the opposite for the reasons stated 20 times in this thread :) Take EVE's progression system, mirror it, then streamline it. Now, create an analogue to ISIS for players to use. Congratulations, you now have a system that is easy to understand as well as non-restrictive. Can you find any flaws in my logic? I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4093	Posted - 2014.05.15 03:14:00 - [165] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: CCP Z wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: I strongly suggest that EVE: Legion adopt a progression system that mirrors EVE Online. I don't see why not. And I am strongly working doing the opposite for the reasons stated 20 times in this thread :) Take EVE's progression system, mirror it, then streamline it. Now, create an analogue to ISIS for players to use. Congratulations, you now have a system that is easy to understand as well as non-restrictive. Can you find any flaws in my logic? Well I certainly can't. I prefer the dust skill system over that of EVE simply because it helps with monetization and rewards me for actually playing, but I agree that ISIS is the key to opening the door to new players, not classes.
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1536	Posted - 2014.05.15 03:17:00 - [166] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: CCP Z wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: I strongly suggest that EVE: Legion adopt a progression system that mirrors EVE Online. I don't see why not. And I am strongly working doing the opposite for the reasons stated 20 times in this thread :) Take EVE's progression system, mirror it, then streamline it. Now, create an analogue to ISIS for players to use. Congratulations, you now have a system that is easy to understand as well as non-restrictive. Can you find any flaws in my logic? Well I certainly can't. I prefer the dust skill system over that of EVE simply because it helps with monetization and rewards me for actually playing, but I agree that ISIS is the key to opening the door to new players, not classes. I was primarily referring to the skill tree and tech system, not the method of acquiring skillpoints. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 501	Posted - 2014.05.15 03:24:00 - [167] - Quote CCP Z wrote: It will take a while before it happens. Just imagine, you are in a room with 3,000 people, you state your opinion, or explain your idea (a complex one, like all trees for all roles), and all 3,000 people start screaming at once to give feedback, opinion, comments GÇª it is just not constructive. I will be as transparent with you guys as I can, but CPM will be representing the Community for these matters and helping us design all the new systems for Legion. I realize that we are asking a lot, and the feedback YOU asked for can feel like a room full of people screaming, but the relationship doesn't have to be adversarial or difficult. We know you don't have any of the hard work hammered out yet, and I'm sure I heard/watched you devs ask for constructive ideas. I appreciate that you will share specifics with the CPM, so please don't gag the CPMs ever again. Let them put the ideas on the Legion wiki site (pre-alpha) and watch the community enhance and iterate the results pre-release. Make the criteria clear, "Legion can't live off of Eve subscriptions. Legion needs to be profitable." And we will help make it happen. There will be bullets. ACR+SMG [CEO of Terror]
Samael Artico Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 111	Posted - 2014.05.15 03:32:00 - [168] - Quote The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim. It has multiple skill trees, doesn't shoehorn you into a role, and is fairly complex. And it's one of the most popular games ever, and remarkably easy to understand. So no, CCP Z, you don't need a unified skill tree that separates players into rigid roles to be "accessible".
Kigurosaka Laaksonen DUST University Ivy League 979	Posted - 2014.05.15 03:32:00 - [169] - Quote I do appreciate the reaching out and further explanation of your vision for the future of Legion (not DUST, I guess?), but, as you admit, it's not like EVE, and EVE stuff is good for EVE, but this isn't EVE, etc. etc. Playing an FPS suitable version of EVE is what I looked forward to. CCP Shanghai seems set on having nothing to do with EVE as far as mechanics go. Here are two examples... The Skill Tree There are many skill trees in EVE, i.e. Gunnery, Science, Spaceship Command, etc. Any skill goes from 1 - 5. Some skills have prereqs within their own tree and some have prereqs that cross into other trees (T2 Spaceship Command skills are a great example of that.) The Tier System I'm not sure where DUST's three separate (but two are functionally identical) tiers came from. There is no precedent for this from over 10 successful years of EVE. MLT / STD / ADV / PRO is one. Basic / enhanced / complex (which for some reason was never abbreviated) is the second and these two are identical. The third tier are suits, a 'Basic Frame' without a role bonus and a specialized role bonused suit. This one is completely bogus. Some people have tried to equate non-role bonused and role bonused suits as T1 and T2 EVE equivalents, but it doesn't hold. You skill into them differently and they have different values. If DUST's suit tier system was introduced to EVE, it would be to the extreme detriment of EVE. These two examples combined give me the impression (not saying that you are) that, in general, CCP Shanghai is woefully ignorant of EVE and the IP in general. The mechanics from EVE work. They're tried and true over 10+ years. They can be translated into an incredible and unique FPS experience. From where I'm sitting, it just looks like CCP Shanghai is unwilling to take advantage of the success that EVE enjoys by emulating it in an FPS environment. As a side thought, I watch the Sandbox presentation where CCP IForgotHisName and Dr. E struggled to articulate how DUST (or Legion?) would eventually have a player driven market like EVE does. You don't have to struggle with new ideas for how to make this work. CCP has already done this in EVE and you just have to do it again (and improve where there's room.) Again, in the case of a player driven market, it looks like CCP Shanghai is actively ignoring the lessons learned from EVE. As another side though, BPOs. What the hell was that all about? I'm not going to explain how they work in EVE, suffice to say they're used in the manufacturing and research process. And in DUST, you have nothing that resembles any kind of production at all, but you still introduce BPOs completely destroy any EVE connection by making them a free item? I would love to have BPO Vindicators in EVE and just fly around without a care in the world. So yeah, from my point of view, it looks like CCP Shanghai is actively denying any knowledge of the existence of EVE. The vision that was presented for DUST (and/or Legion?) takes this game even further from any of the few EVE-like qualities it still has. Being an MMOFPS won't make DUST or Legion (I'll just say 'your game') special. Being like CoD or BF or Planetside or Firefall won't make your game stand out, or make it successful. Being like EVE, one of the most unique, special, and successful MMOs in the world, will. And can we talk about the initial decision to launch exclusively on the PS3? Has any from CCP even acknowledged that was a horrible idea? Did anyone from Sony let you guys know the PS4 was on its way? Did someone at CCP forget they had been developing for the PC and had no experience on consoles? Sorry, this post is getting too emotionally driven. Anyway, if Legion is also free to play, sure, I'll give it a try. I've spent my money on DUST with the hope of an EVE-like fps experience. Now that I know that won't happen, spending on DUST and Legion will stop. CCP Z wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: I strongly suggest that EVE: Legion adopt a progression system that mirrors EVE Online. I don't see why not. And I am strongly working doing the opposite for the reasons stated 20 times in this thread :) If you're unwilling to budge on this, I'm simply unwilling to spend money on this. The fact is, EVE's progression system works. It has worked for over 10yrs. I mean, how can I think anything else than that you're just throwing that experience out the window? And with this whole Unified EVE thing that Hilmar talked about, how could being exactly the opposite of EVE accommodate that? DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/ EVE Buddy Invite - Too damn long. Ask me for it.
Vell0cet Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad. 2006	Posted - 2014.05.15 03:33:00 - [170] - Quote CCP Z wrote: I donGÇÖt necessarily agree here. Money spent and team size are not the only factors. Innovation and user experience are what we are aiming for. Create a different game (sandbox Wild PVE/PVP) with a polished experience (more accessible, better UI, better immersion) will make us successful Thanks again for taking the time to reply. I know you're busy and having the respect for your players to address us directly is really awesome. If I were running a smaller gaming studio trying to compete directly with powerhouses in my industry, I would be looking to find the existing competitive advantages of my team and product and build on those. The reality is you can't beat those studios on accessibility, polish, immersion, or PvE (they have huge campaigns with tons of scripted content and story lines). You're 100% right about the sandbox though. That and the depth of your skills and fittings along with the sense of loss that forces you to play your character like their life has value are the things that make your product so incredible (your artists are pretty amazing too). I can assure you that we all want the player base to increase massively from what it is now. I believe there is a viable market for a better version of what DUST was supposed to be. I know there are a lot of players like myself who find most FPS games shallow and boring. Many of us are older, with limited free time and deeper pockets. I have to believe there is a way to tap into that market somehow and make a financially successful product. It's hard to believe that building/refining/improving on the successes of DUST isn't a better direction than gutting so much of it (the progression system) and starting from scratch. Would you at least consider an ISIS-like overlay over the existing EVE-style system as an alternative? Continue work on your proposals, but simultaneously explore alternatives? I completely agree that the game needs to be accessible to as wide an audience as possible. I really don't understand why UI/UX improvements and a AAA tutorial can't bring accessibility to an improved version of the existing system. As someone who has studied UI design, one point that was constantly hammered into my brain repeatedly was how critical the first launch experience is of a piece of software. I think you should get the tutorial team together and have them play a couple hours of Portal 1 (better yet, watch someone who has never played it and take notes). That game did an absolutely amazing job of introducing players to foreign concepts, but it had personality, humor and flair that kept driving it forward. I think there's a lot you guys could take away from that game. The first Halo did an awesome job of this as well. It introduced radical concepts like the shield regeneration system but in a tutorial that got right into the action from the beginning. You go from a boring scene in a lab to having aliens board your ship with the power going out and fires everywhere. Now that's a way to grab a prospective customer and suck them in! Quote: Quote: Your concern that EVE is a different financial model is a bit misguided. EVE is free-to-play as well with the PLEX system. Why canGÇÖt we reduce the amount of unboosted passive and active SP gained by some percentage (maybe 30% or so) and increase the percentage of boosters by the same amount to make them a better value and more desirable? If we can buy/sell boosters on the market like PLEX then the systems will be very similar. Players can grind ISK to gain access to boosters, and players with more real money than time can sell them boosters for ISK. I have not presented the new Monetization system for Legion. We will be very far away from what DUST currently is (no gear/items for AURUM, players who donGÇÖt want to spend money will still have access to all GÇ£paidGÇ¥optionsGÇª). I will create a separate thread when I am ready to have this discussion Again, as I said in the presentation and in this thread: the level of customization remains the same as in DUST, we are changing the way it is presented to all players. It sounds like you guys are way below your targets financially, and I can appreciate the difficulty this puts you in. You have access to the numbers and we obviously don't, so it's really hard to give feedback here. All I can say is that the existing model got me to spend more on DUST than any video game in my life (hell I bought a PS3 just to play DUST). I bought BPOs (including the DREN set and the Collector's Edition), as well as boosters (a bunch of Omegas). I never used an AUR suit (that wasn't a BPO) and was planning to sell the ones I got from the freebies, events, and thrown in with the BPO packs on the market once that came out. One of the big problems with AUR gear is that it's a bit like having the word "douchebag" tattooed onto your suit. For some reason, paying money for boosters and selling them in the market for ISK to buy normal suits doesn't feel as sleazy as using a 'I paid real money for this suit' Proto Amarr Assault Suit. Paying money shouldn't broadcast to other players that you've paid money like the naming of AUR gear does. Hopefully that's valuable feedback. Best PvE idea ever!

Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1546	Posted - 2014.05.15 03:42:00 - [171] - Quote CCP Z. Multiple times you have stated that "EVE: Legion is not EVE". But I think you're misunderstanding. DUST 514, and consequently EVE: Legion, was supposed to be for people who wanted to have an EVE-like experience in a different format. That was the original intent of DUST 514. And yet, for some reason, CCP Shanghai has been moving away from that. Look where it's gotten DUST 514. You're doing the exact same thing your predecessors did, CCP Z, to an even worse extent. Don't make the same mistakes they did. CCP has to capitalize on what it has, and what CCP has is EVE. It tried to move away from that and DUST 514 suffered for it. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
Fenix Alexarr BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 111	Posted - 2014.05.15 03:43:00 - [172] - Quote CCP Z wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: I strongly suggest that EVE: Legion adopt a progression system that mirrors EVE Online. I don't see why not. And I am strongly working doing the opposite for the reasons stated 20 times in this thread :) This is the specific point everyone is talking about. This is the crux of the problem. Please address this.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4098	Posted - 2014.05.15 03:47:00 - [173] - Quote I kinda get the feeling that he just doesn't believe us or something. Is this going to be a situation where the community is all going to say something and Z is just going to say screw it and do things his own way anyhow? Because that's largely the feeling I'm getting.
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 504	Posted - 2014.05.15 03:50:00 - [174] - Quote It is not just the complexity of the current progression system that has kept me interested in the Eve FPS, it is the potential complexity in the Eve Forever vision. There will be bullets. ACR+SMG [CEO of Terror]
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1550	Posted - 2014.05.15 03:50:00 - [175] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: I kinda get the feeling that he just doesn't believe us or something. Is this going to be a situation where the community is all going to say something and Z is just going to say screw it and do things his own way anyhow? Because that's largely the feeling I'm getting. When the vast majority of your playerbase is saying something is a bad idea, it's usually a bad idea. There are exceptions, but I do not think this is one of them. I don't hate CCP Z yet, but if this keeps up... I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
Kigurosaka Laaksonen DUST University Ivy League 979	Posted - 2014.05.15 03:51:00 - [176] - Quote And something that I remember for some reason from your presentation, or maybe a panel / roundtable. You said something to the effect of not liking that a player be stuck forever if he makes a mistake and dumps SP into something he didn't "mean" to. (Let's be honest, he meant to, but suffered from some buyer's remorse later.) This entire mentality is contrary to what CCP has built with EVE, and what we've come to expect from New Eden, where you're setting DUST (or Legion?). At a superficial level it goes against the HTFU mindset (that I don't agree with.) All the information is available to the player. There are in game descriptions. They can access an admittedly terrible but no-skills-required MLT version of the item they want to try (again, a strange tier system that I would ruin EVE.) They can even watch youtube videos reviewing the weapon / suit / thing they want to try. If they're so lucky to have friends, they can even ask for first hand experience. No one 'accidentally' skills something higher than they intended to. Whether they would have made that same decision in a month or however far in the future is immaterial. At a deeper and more important level, no one is 'stuck forever.' In EVE, every skill has a purpose and reason for training to 5. That doesn't mean something else might be more worthwhile to train, but there's a reason for every 5. DUST can't say that. In EVE, if you skill into something and find you don't like it, that's tough. There are no respecs. The decision is yours to sulk and moan about your poor decision, or find a situational use for whatever you can access in the future. If you actually followed the patterns set by EVE, you could see this mindset applied to DUST. No skill is ever wasted, and no player is ever 'stuck.' (In EVE, at least, because DUST doesn't satisfactorily mirror EVE. (and Legion won't either?)) DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/ EVE Buddy Invite - Too damn long. Ask me for it.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4101	Posted - 2014.05.15 03:55:00 - [177] - Quote Kigurosaka Laaksonen wrote: And something that I remember for some reason from your presentation, or maybe a panel / roundtable. You said something to the effect of not liking that a player be stuck forever if he makes a mistake and dumps SP into something he didn't "mean" to. (Let's be honest, he meant to, but suffered from some buyer's remorse later.) This entire mentality is contrary to what CCP has built with EVE, and what we've come to expect from New Eden, where you're setting DUST (or Legion?). At a superficial level it goes against the HTFU mindset (that I don't agree with.) All the information is available to the player. There are in game descriptions. They can access an admittedly terrible but no-skills-required MLT version of the item they want to try (again, a strange tier system that I would ruin EVE.) They can even watch youtube videos reviewing the weapon / suit / thing they want to try. If they're so lucky to have friends, they can even ask for first hand experience. No one 'accidentally' skills something higher than they intended to. Whether they would have made that same decision in a month or however far in the future is immaterial. At a deeper and more important level, no one is 'stuck forever.' In EVE, every skill has a purpose and reason for training to 5. That doesn't mean something else might be more worthwhile to train, but there's a reason for every 5. DUST can't say that. In EVE, if you skill into something and find you don't like it, that's tough. There are no respecs. The decision is yours to sulk and moan about your poor decision, or find a situational use for whatever you can access in the future. If you actually followed the patterns set by EVE, you could see this mindset applied to DUST. No skill is ever wasted, and no player is ever 'stuck.' (In EVE, at least, because DUST doesn't satisfactorily mirror EVE. (and Legion won't either?)) Stupid players need their hand held and he believes there is more money in stupid players than intelligent ones. He isn't wrong. Unfortunately he is also not in a position to capitalize on them. He doesn't recognize this for whatever reason.
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1550	Posted - 2014.05.15 03:58:00 - [178] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Kigurosaka Laaksonen wrote: And something that I remember for some reason from your presentation, or maybe a panel / roundtable. You said something to the effect of not liking that a player be stuck forever if he makes a mistake and dumps SP into something he didn't "mean" to. (Let's be honest, he meant to, but suffered from some buyer's remorse later.) This entire mentality is contrary to what CCP has built with EVE, and what we've come to expect from New Eden, where you're setting DUST (or Legion?). At a superficial level it goes against the HTFU mindset (that I don't agree with.) All the information is available to the player. There are in game descriptions. They can access an admittedly terrible but no-skills-required MLT version of the item they want to try (again, a strange tier system that I would ruin EVE.) They can even watch youtube videos reviewing the weapon / suit / thing they want to try. If they're so lucky to have friends, they can even ask for first hand experience. No one 'accidentally' skills something higher than they intended to. Whether they would have made that same decision in a month or however far in the future is immaterial. At a deeper and more important level, no one is 'stuck forever.' In EVE, every skill has a purpose and reason for training to 5. That doesn't mean something else might be more worthwhile to train, but there's a reason for every 5. DUST can't say that. In EVE, if you skill into something and find you don't like it, that's tough. There are no respecs. The decision is yours to sulk and moan about your poor decision, or find a situational use for whatever you can access in the future. If you actually followed the patterns set by EVE, you could see this mindset applied to DUST. No skill is ever wasted, and no player is ever 'stuck.' (In EVE, at least, because DUST doesn't satisfactorily mirror EVE. (and Legion won't either?)) Stupid players need their hand held and he believes there is more money in stupid players than intelligent ones. He isn't wrong. Unfortunately he is also not in a position to capitalize on them. He doesn't recognize this for whatever reason. You speak the truth. All the stupid players are already being milked by other game companies. CCP, your market is intelligent people, not people who can't understand the skill system. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
ANON Cerberus Tiny Toons 672	Posted - 2014.05.15 03:59:00 - [179] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: CCP Z wrote: I donGÇÖt necessarily agree here. Money spent and team size are not the only factors. Innovation and user experience are what we are aiming for. Create a different game (sandbox Wild PVE/PVP) with a polished experience (more accessible, better UI, better immersion) will make us successful Thanks again for taking the time to reply. I know you're busy and having the respect for your players to address us directly is really awesome. If I were running a smaller gaming studio trying to compete directly with powerhouses in my industry, I would be looking to find the existing competitive advantages of my team and product and build on those. The reality is you can't beat those studios on accessibility, polish, immersion, or PvE (they have huge campaigns with tons of scripted content and story lines). You're 100% right about the sandbox though. That and the depth of your skills and fittings along with the sense of loss that forces you to play your character like their life has value are the things that make your product so incredible (your artists are pretty amazing too). I can assure you that we all want the player base to increase massively from what it is now. I believe there is a viable market for a better version of what DUST was supposed to be. I know there are a lot of players like myself who find most FPS games shallow and boring. Many of us are older, with limited free time and deeper pockets. I have to believe there is a way to tap into that market somehow and make a financially successful product. It's hard to believe that building/refining/improving on the successes of DUST isn't a better direction than gutting so much of it (the progression system) and starting from scratch. Would you at least consider an ISIS-like overlay over the existing EVE-style system as an alternative? Continue work on your proposals, but simultaneously explore alternatives? I completely agree that the game needs to be accessible to as wide an audience as possible. I really don't understand why UI/UX improvements and a AAA tutorial can't bring accessibility to an improved version of the existing system. As someone who has studied UI design, one point that was repeatedly hammered into my brain was how critical the first launch experience is of a piece of software. I think you should get the tutorial team together and have them play a couple hours of Portal 1 (better yet, have the team watch someone who has never played it and take notes). That game did an absolutely amazing job of introducing players to foreign concepts, but it had personality, humor and flair that kept driving it forward. I think there's a lot you guys could take away from that game. The first Halo did an awesome job of this as well. It introduced radical concepts like the shield regeneration system but in a tutorial that got right into the action from the beginning. You go from a boring scene in a lab to having aliens board your ship with the power going out and fires everywhere. Now that's a way to grab a prospective customer and suck them in! Quote: Quote: Your concern that EVE is a different financial model is a bit misguided. EVE is free-to-play as well with the PLEX system. Why canGÇÖt we reduce the amount of unboosted passive and active SP gained by some percentage (maybe 30% or so) and increase the percentage of boosters by the same amount to make them a better value and more desirable? If we can buy/sell boosters on the market like PLEX then the systems will be very similar. Players can grind ISK to gain access to boosters, and players with more real money than time can sell them boosters for ISK. I have not presented the new Monetization system for Legion. We will be very far away from what DUST currently is (no gear/items for AURUM, players who donGÇÖt want to spend money will still have access to all GÇ£paidGÇ¥optionsGÇª). I will create a separate thread when I am ready to have this discussion Again, as I said in the presentation and in this thread: the level of customization remains the same as in DUST, we are changing the way it is presented to all players. It sounds like you guys are way below your targets financially, and I can appreciate the difficulty this puts you in. You have access to the numbers and we obviously don't, so it's really hard to give feedback here. All I can say is that the existing model got me to spend more on DUST than any video game in my life (hell I bought a PS3 just to play DUST). I bought BPOs (including the DREN set and the Collector's Edition), as well as boosters (a bunch of Omegas). I never used an AUR suit (that wasn't a BPO) and was planning to sell the ones I got from the freebies, events, and thrown in with the BPO packs on the market once that came out. One of the big problems with AUR gear is that it's a bit like having the word "douchebag" tattooed onto your suit. For some reason, paying money for boosters and selling them in the market for ISK to buy normal suits doesn't feel as sleazy as using a 'I paid real money for this suit' Proto Amarr Assault Suit. Paying money shouldn't broadcast to other players that you've paid money like the naming of AUR gear does. Hopefully that's valuable feedback. I have to echo this post, he said everything I wanted to said. I get the feeling that most of the community will feel a similar way. Have the CPM anything to say on this subject?
Negris Albedo Nuevo Atlas Corporation 59	Posted - 2014.05.15 04:10:00 - [180] - Quote CCP Z, you're going about this the wrong way. In a sandbox game, the only time you should restrict the player is when there's no other option. And yet, here you are, with a plethora of possible options. And what do you decide to do? Restrict the player.

TrueXer0z DUST University Ivy League 546	Posted - 2014.05.15 05:00:00 - [181] - Quote CCP Z wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: I strongly suggest that EVE: Legion adopt a progression system that mirrors EVE Online. I don't see why not. And I am strongly working doing the opposite for the reasons stated 20 times in this thread :) Why is it necessary for this change? Where are the overwhelming requests threads saying that the skill trees need to be overhauled? Didn't you guys spend the last 2 years trying to balance the game to incorporate the current skill tree? You CCP guys are so way off base with your customers is it kinda of embarrassing to watch. I am embarrassed to tell people about Dust 514/ Legion. (Yes, Dust/Legion are the same IP. How can you even deny that fact?) Seriously, get you stuff together guys. Enough is enough. What is it going to take? The community is telling you what they want. It is really that simple. Imagine making a game that included actual customer interaction and without the veil of obscurity. Be honest with us. You already have in mind what you plan on doing. Our feedback means nothing at this point. Especially since we don't even have access to a working version of your model. You guys are making this a lot harder then it has to be. You wonder why the community is toxic? The consistent neglect of a true community voice has lead it to the state it is currently in. We all want this game to be made, we all want it to be awesome, we all want it to succeed. Why must every encounter be a battle between the community vs. the community vs. the Devs? Director, Dust University @TrueXer0z *Kevall Longstride - CPM1*
calisk galern BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 2498	Posted - 2014.05.15 05:09:00 - [182] - Quote well not much I can add to this discussion, I just need to side with the players on this one, eve skill progression system is fine for an fps, dust has made mistakes and more then anything they have strayed too far from the eve mantras that has kept that game running for the last 10 years. dust failure has never been that it is too similar to eve, it's that it's always been too different. complexity is welcomed by older players, and simplicity is welcomed by newer players, you need a system that is simple to understand at first with the near infinite level of skill progression and frame customization that we all love. Eve developers would never be satisfied though with focusing just on combat roles, they would want to put skills in for harvesting/scavenging, planet mining, industry and markets, deployables, and other things, sure it took them 10 years to get eve to where it is now with it's infinite levels of complexity, I don't have confidence in a dumbed down sequel to dust making it 10 years. I wish we had some eve developers trying to make legion into what we all wanted when we started playing.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8567	Posted - 2014.05.15 05:11:00 - [183] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: I kinda get the feeling that he just doesn't believe us or something. Is this going to be a situation where the community is all going to say something and Z is just going to say screw it and do things his own way anyhow? Because that's largely the feeling I'm getting. I'm starting to get that impression too. At least with CCP MC Peanut, we can be sure that our feedback is being considered for the HUD design. I'm not sure I can say the same for CCP Z in regards to the progression system he has laid out for us. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8567	Posted - 2014.05.15 05:12:00 - [184] - Quote TrueXer0z wrote: CCP Z wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: I strongly suggest that EVE: Legion adopt a progression system that mirrors EVE Online. I don't see why not. And I am strongly working doing the opposite for the reasons stated 20 times in this thread :) Why is it necessary for this change? Where are the overwhelming requests threads saying that the skill trees need to be overhauled? Didn't you guys spend the last 2 years trying to balance the game to incorporate the current skill tree? You CCP guys are so way off base with your customers is it kinda of embarrassing to watch. I am embarrassed to tell people about Dust 514/ Legion. (Yes, Dust/Legion are the same IP. How can you even deny that fact?) Seriously, get you stuff together guys. Enough is enough. What is it going to take? The community is telling you what they want. It is really that simple. Imagine making a game that included actual customer interaction and without the veil of obscurity. Be honest with us. You already have in mind what you plan on doing. Our feedback means nothing at this point. Especially since we don't even have access to a working version of your model. You guys are making this a lot harder then it has to be. You wonder why the community is toxic? The consistent neglect of a true community voice has lead it to the state it is currently in. We all want this game to be made, we all want it to be awesome, we all want it to succeed. Why must every encounter be a battle between the community vs. the community vs. the Devs? On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Fenix Alexarr BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 115	Posted - 2014.05.15 05:22:00 - [185] - Quote ANON Cerberus wrote: Vell0cet wrote: CCP Z wrote: I donGÇÖt necessarily agree here. Money spent and team size are not the only factors. Innovation and user experience are what we are aiming for. Create a different game (sandbox Wild PVE/PVP) with a polished experience (more accessible, better UI, better immersion) will make us successful Thanks again for taking the time to reply. I know you're busy and having the respect for your players to address us directly is really awesome. If I were running a smaller gaming studio trying to compete directly with powerhouses in my industry, I would be looking to find the existing competitive advantages of my team and product and build on those. The reality is you can't beat those studios on accessibility, polish, immersion, or PvE (they have huge campaigns with tons of scripted content and story lines). You're 100% right about the sandbox though. That and the depth of your skills and fittings along with the sense of loss that forces you to play your character like their life has value are the things that make your product so incredible (your artists are pretty amazing too). I can assure you that we all want the player base to increase massively from what it is now. I believe there is a viable market for a better version of what DUST was supposed to be. I know there are a lot of players like myself who find most FPS games shallow and boring. Many of us are older, with limited free time and deeper pockets. I have to believe there is a way to tap into that market somehow and make a financially successful product. It's hard to believe that building/refining/improving on the successes of DUST isn't a better direction than gutting so much of it (the progression system) and starting from scratch. Would you at least consider an ISIS-like overlay over the existing EVE-style system as an alternative? Continue work on your proposals, but simultaneously explore alternatives? I completely agree that the game needs to be accessible to as wide an audience as possible. I really don't understand why UI/UX improvements and a AAA tutorial can't bring accessibility to an improved version of the existing system. As someone who has studied UI design, one point that was repeatedly hammered into my brain was how critical the first launch experience is of a piece of software. I think you should get the tutorial team together and have them play a couple hours of Portal 1 (better yet, have the team watch someone who has never played it and take notes). That game did an absolutely amazing job of introducing players to foreign concepts, but it had personality, humor and flair that kept driving it forward. I think there's a lot you guys could take away from that game. The first Halo did an awesome job of this as well. It introduced radical concepts like the shield regeneration system but in a tutorial that got right into the action from the beginning. You go from a boring scene in a lab to having aliens board your ship with the power going out and fires everywhere. Now that's a way to grab a prospective customer and suck them in! Quote: Quote: Your concern that EVE is a different financial model is a bit misguided. EVE is free-to-play as well with the PLEX system. Why canGÇÖt we reduce the amount of unboosted passive and active SP gained by some percentage (maybe 30% or so) and increase the percentage of boosters by the same amount to make them a better value and more desirable? If we can buy/sell boosters on the market like PLEX then the systems will be very similar. Players can grind ISK to gain access to boosters, and players with more real money than time can sell them boosters for ISK. I have not presented the new Monetization system for Legion. We will be very far away from what DUST currently is (no gear/items for AURUM, players who donGÇÖt want to spend money will still have access to all GÇ£paidGÇ¥optionsGÇª). I will create a separate thread when I am ready to have this discussion Again, as I said in the presentation and in this thread: the level of customization remains the same as in DUST, we are changing the way it is presented to all players. It sounds like you guys are way below your targets financially, and I can appreciate the difficulty this puts you in. You have access to the numbers and we obviously don't, so it's really hard to give feedback here. All I can say is that the existing model got me to spend more on DUST than any video game in my life (hell I bought a PS3 just to play DUST). I bought BPOs (including the DREN set and the Collector's Edition), as well as boosters (a bunch of Omegas). I never used an AUR suit (that wasn't a BPO) and was planning to sell the ones I got from the freebies, events, and thrown in with the BPO packs on the market once that came out. One of the big problems with AUR gear is that it's a bit like having the word "douchebag" tattooed onto your suit. For some reason, paying money for boosters and selling them in the market for ISK to buy normal suits doesn't feel as sleazy as using a 'I paid real money for this suit' Proto Amarr Assault Suit. Paying money shouldn't broadcast to other players that you've paid money like the naming of AUR gear does. Hopefully that's valuable feedback. I have to echo this post, he said everything I wanted to said. I get the feeling that most of the community will feel a similar way. Have the CPM anything to say on this subject? The CPM have spoken on this. They've advised CCP that the direction they are heading is wrong. They have been ignored. I'm hoping that with the amount of feedback on this thread, we can finally have the people in charge start to see what the problem is with these proposed changes.
McFurious TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 774	Posted - 2014.05.15 05:24:00 - [186] - Quote Sounds like you're trying to be "innovative" by putting player progression on rails. I'd advise against that but seems you're already well aware that players here think that this is a bad idea. The great thing about Dust and EVE is that players make their own goals. I set my own progression path. It's one of the few things that kept me playing Dust despite all the other problems with the game. Without that, you'll be losing one of the greatest and most unique aspects of the game: Letting us choose how we play in the sandbox. But it's early. I'll wait and see what you've come up with when you're ready to show it. Maybe it's something I can get used to but I'd much rather have the ability set my own goals and progression path in Legion like I did in Dust. Half Irish. Often angry. Grizzled Masshole Closed Beta Vet PC > Console
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4113	Posted - 2014.05.15 05:25:00 - [187] - Quote Well, he did say earlier that "95%" of the people who tried dust couldn't understand the skill system. I find that incredibly difficult to believe in its entirety, but assuming for a moment that most people really are that stupid the only thing I can think of is that he is actually willing to throw out the current fanbase in its entirety so he can make a move on the other 95% who didn't like the game. Wait, no, thats wrong. Because that 95% existed on consoles, and this is now a PC game. Let's try to figure this out guys. First they announced Dust which EVE players were looking forward to, and abandoned the audience for the console crowd. Then at this fanfest, they effectively abandoned the console audience in one of the worst PR disasters CCP has ever had, even going so far as have been compared to the Red Wedding. Now they are aiming it at the PC audience, while simultaneously ditching the PC audience? CCP Z, can you tell me just who exactly this third audience is that you are attempting to sell your game to? Cause I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist. Not for your company's level of polish.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries 9676	Posted - 2014.05.15 05:26:00 - [188] - Quote Still having issues wrapping my mind around this new system. Will there no longer be dropsuit tiers? (MLT, STD, ADV, PRO) Only Academy -> Frame Size -> Race -> Specialization? So the meta level increases between each of those? If so, will Academy be inherently inferior to frame size? Frame inherently inferior to racial? Or, other than meta score, will there be a reason to use earlier suits? Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
iliel Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 49	Posted - 2014.05.15 05:28:00 - [189] - Quote RailTank QQ wrote: All of this sounds actually very PlanetSide 2 like. EVER piece of equipment is locked to a 'suit' (role) in that game, and the little variation there is comes from suits accidentally sharing a 'module' to customize. Also, it becomes a super duper grindfest, with little cross variation and adaptibility. Is this really how your internal metrics have shown to be a better option than improving NPE and tiericiding suits? Or have I missed the point after staring at the progression threads and videos for hours? CCP: please respond to this. Is the Legion progression tree idea like that of Planetside 2? If you don't know, pick up a copy of PS2 and try it. If it is like PS2, then I recommend rethinking the idea. PS2's progression tree is horrible, makes the game incredibly boring, and will ultimately kill it. If it is not like PS2's progression, please explain how it is different. Please note that what made Dust interesting to me and probably others from the get go was the fact that one could customize extensively. If making things more accessible means making things less customizable, then I would suggest otherwise. Thank you.
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1574	Posted - 2014.05.15 05:43:00 - [190] - Quote I'm 100% serious when I say that if this progression system is implemented, I will biomass my character. And I will never play EVE: Legion. CCP, this new progression system is by far the worst mistake you will ever make. Worse than launching on the PS3. Worse than Monoclegate. Worse than announcing EVE: Legion at Fanfest. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.

SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 773	Posted - 2014.05.15 05:46:00 - [191] - Quote iliel wrote: Is the Legion progression tree idea like that of Planetside 2? If you don't know, pick up a copy of PS2 and try it. If it is like PS2, then I recommend rethinking the idea. PS2's progression tree is horrible, makes the game incredibly boring, and will ultimately kill it. If it is not like PS2's progression, please explain how it is different. From what I understand, it's a bit like PS2 in that there's unlocks based on role. What Legion does differently is that once you unlock something, you can use it in any fit you want. Dust/Eve transfers
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries 9676	Posted - 2014.05.15 05:47:00 - [192] - Quote Jonny D Buelle wrote: Leeroy Gannarsein wrote: I mean, who jeeps in proto? I do when I'm drunk... or stoned... or both. I do because GÖ½SWIMMING IN ISKGÖ½ Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Captain Crutches Nexus Marines 112	Posted - 2014.05.15 05:51:00 - [193] - Quote I can't say any better what's already been said here. I will just say I love this thread, I love the (mostly) constructive nature of the feedback, and I love that Z is taking the time to answer questions, even if I don't necessarily like all his answers. I will just give a brief TL;DR of my views: Respecs in any form unsettle me a lot, the suit BPO idea unsettles me even more, locking weapons to roles in the progression trees is weird (why must I skill into an entire role I'm not interested in just so I can use its associated weapon?). On the other hand, I literally fist-pumped when I read there will be no more P2W Aurum gear, I raged every time I died to that. My feelings about this system (as it seems to be with most here) lean more toward the negative than the positive overall. I'd love to see concrete examples of it in action (UI mockups, video demos, more than just what Z presented at Fanfest) as I think that would help a lot of us come to more informed conclusions (either "huh, this actually might not be that bad" or "yup, confirmed for awful"), but based on what I know I remain very skeptical. I would echo that a system consistent with Eve will help immersion and emphasize the connection between the games. No, Dust/Legion is not Eve, but they are and should be closely linked in both concrete interaction and feel/mechanics, to keep players of both games grounded in the New Eden universe and facilitate moving from one to the other (you want Legion players' Eve subscription money, don't deny it). Many Eve players will flock to Legion if only to give it a try, and they will be comforted by a similar system that reminds them of where they are. Why do I always write long posts late at night right before I go to bed? I really need to catch up on sleep, why am I here... Legion is absolutely the right move for the future of Dust. How CCP went about revealing it is the biggest problem.
Samael Artico Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 113	Posted - 2014.05.15 05:53:00 - [194] - Quote Honestly, CCP, the real problem with the current progression system is that it was poorly made and the UI for skill training is horribly inadequate, not that the concept was bad or that people couldn't understand the concept. Are you honestly saying that having separate skill trees is confusing? Are you honestly saying that having skills consist of multiple levels is a difficult concept? Those are commonplace in video games! You've just handled them terribly!
Tallen Ellecon 1929	Posted - 2014.05.15 06:15:00 - [195] - Quote Thank You CCP Z Seriously, you're thinking outside the box that's good. You're answering our questions, even the tough ones, we really like that. So to be fair in this scenario you will be the Devil and I'll support as far as I can tell is your plan for skill progression and gear. First off lets for a moment not pretend like the skill system in EVE or Dust is only understandable by smart people. I know a lot of smart people who would rather not take the time to understand EVE or DUST, and I know a lot of less than average intelligence people that do (exhibit A : the war room) 1)Skill Tree So in our current system there is little to no explanation on how anything works. Before the battle academy a new player pretty much had no hope outside of a paragraph of texts per section. There are so many things to choose from. Without explaining what a drop suit is or what the weapons are some new player may invest in a heavy weapon not realizing they can't fit it on a light suit.... it's a mess. Most of us can't imagine how alien most of this game is. In legion the proposal is that you pick a familiar class or role from the start. From there you will be guided to the relevant weapons, modules, and upgrades. I'm not completely sure if you can only use weapons and equipment from a certain suit tree on that suit, or if you can only unlock it that way. Either way it becomes intuitive enough from the first hour or so that someone won't leave out of frustration with the skill tree. I don't fear change, but I am cautious. I don't know why an ISIS/ Mastery/Certificate system won't accomplish the same goal without reducing customization or locking people into set roles. If you want a suit to stick to a particular role give it a lot of bonuses towards particular modules and gear. The EVE skill tree seems like a complicated mess, until you put it into an interface like ISIS, that guides players the best way to fill out ships and roles. 2)Gear First off keeping suits BPOs and raising the prices of weapons and modules isn't a terrible idea. I just don't see the point unless it was a form of tiericide. I also think making higher meta level gear rarer in an open market is a great way to balance out equipment in game. Since no one manufactures high tiered gear currently it's demand in no way influences the price, nor does the cost of material. I think it's a good way to balance weapons, assuming there is an open market of some sort. Less used weapons would become less expensive, and flavor of the month would be very pricey. The reasoning for making all suits BPOs doesn't make sense to me. I'm not wearing proto all the time not because I don't feel a connection or ownership. It's because A) Compared to pub payouts, it doesn't make a big enough difference to justify the cost. B) I can accomplish the same goals in lower tiers. C) Most players are in lower tiered suits anyway, so it feels more balanced. My pride in my suit comes from how I fit it, not how much SP I invested into it. This is why I'm for tiericide, I'm not working at making a suit better than it was yesterday, but I want to make it more attuned to my playstyle. Other than those things, most everything else about Legion seems like a good idea. I'm interested to hear more about PVE, player market and possible logistics with EVE (moving tanks from one system to the next). I just want a sandbox that doesn't hold back where it doesn't have to. CCP Z you're taking a lot of flak because this is the biggest thing we've heard from you and we're just trying to understand how these mechanics will make the game better.
SILENTSAM 69 SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION 700	Posted - 2014.05.15 06:20:00 - [196] - Quote I am still concerned with the idea of putting weapons in with the suits. The biggest reason is because of the idea that you guys will decide what the basic weapons are and what we can get first and what we can get later. It is the proposed fix that sounds bad. Also I do not like this idea of giving a respec. I hope it is extremely limited. It is a very easy system to abuse. Why does the weapons have to mix with the suits in the way you propose? How does it make anything more simple? If anything it seems to make it more difficult. It creates problems for introducing new suits. It seems to require a whole line of new weapons, or else some overlap. Why not expand the very idea of the weapons in the move to Legion? Why not have weapons have their own skill path, and also have their own fittings? Why not fit both your suit, and your weapon? This allows a person to decide which one they prefer to spend their SP on, and allow more depth of customization without making any unnecessary difficulty. Suit upgrades and enhancements make sense to have in the same skill trees. Weapons do not. I wish we had small limited fittings for weapons allowing different scopes and clip sizes, and making our weapons something special to use, and not just the suits.
Tallen Ellecon 1929	Posted - 2014.05.15 06:21:00 - [197] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: iliel wrote: Is the Legion progression tree idea like that of Planetside 2? If you don't know, pick up a copy of PS2 and try it. If it is like PS2, then I recommend rethinking the idea. PS2's progression tree is horrible, makes the game incredibly boring, and will ultimately kill it. If it is not like PS2's progression, please explain how it is different. From what I understand, it's a bit like PS2 in that there's unlocks based on role. What Legion does differently is that once you unlock something, you can use it in any fit you want. If this is true, IDK why we don't just keep the old tree and have a mastery/certificate system that with a proper UI will be identical to Zs tree, but still allow customization without barriers to the more in depth players?
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1574	Posted - 2014.05.15 06:27:00 - [198] - Quote Tallen Ellecon wrote: SponkSponkSponk wrote: iliel wrote: Is the Legion progression tree idea like that of Planetside 2? If you don't know, pick up a copy of PS2 and try it. If it is like PS2, then I recommend rethinking the idea. PS2's progression tree is horrible, makes the game incredibly boring, and will ultimately kill it. If it is not like PS2's progression, please explain how it is different. From what I understand, it's a bit like PS2 in that there's unlocks based on role. What Legion does differently is that once you unlock something, you can use it in any fit you want. If this is true, IDK why we don't just keep the old tree and have a mastery/certificate system that with a proper UI will be identical to Zs tree, but still allow customization without barriers to the more in depth players? Because CCP Z doesn't care. He's a newcomer, after all. He has no attachment to the game or the community. At least, that's what his actions say. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
Tallen Ellecon 1929	Posted - 2014.05.15 06:30:00 - [199] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: Tallen Ellecon wrote: SponkSponkSponk wrote: iliel wrote: Is the Legion progression tree idea like that of Planetside 2? If you don't know, pick up a copy of PS2 and try it. If it is like PS2, then I recommend rethinking the idea. PS2's progression tree is horrible, makes the game incredibly boring, and will ultimately kill it. If it is not like PS2's progression, please explain how it is different. From what I understand, it's a bit like PS2 in that there's unlocks based on role. What Legion does differently is that once you unlock something, you can use it in any fit you want. If this is true, IDK why we don't just keep the old tree and have a mastery/certificate system that with a proper UI will be identical to Zs tree, but still allow customization without barriers to the more in depth players? Because CCP Z doesn't care. He's a newcomer, after all. He has no attachment to the game or the community. At least, that's what his actions say. I try to give him the benefit of the doubt, but I'm starting to agree with you.
McFurious TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 776	Posted - 2014.05.15 07:16:00 - [200] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: iliel wrote: Is the Legion progression tree idea like that of Planetside 2? If you don't know, pick up a copy of PS2 and try it. If it is like PS2, then I recommend rethinking the idea. PS2's progression tree is horrible, makes the game incredibly boring, and will ultimately kill it. If it is not like PS2's progression, please explain how it is different. From what I understand, it's a bit like PS2 in that there's unlocks based on role. What Legion does differently is that once you unlock something, you can use it in any fit you want. Yeah at least that's still in the plans. My plan has always been to skill into all the suits anyway. So I might be able to put up with this system forcing me into suits I don't want at the time to get some equipment that I do want that I can then fit to whatever suit I want. That's still a step up from all the other FPS games out there but it's a step down from the freedom of choice we had in Dust. Half Irish. Often angry. Grizzled Masshole Closed Beta Vet PC > Console

Velociraptor antirrhopus Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 36	Posted - 2014.05.15 07:23:00 - [201] - Quote the more the SP system changes from Dust's SP trees, the less I will be likely to ever play Legion at all they already screwed up Caldari and Gallente Assault enough. just leave it like it is and make the necessary tweaks to things like the awful reload speed bonus for caldari assault. GûéGûäGûà /Gûî /Gûî /Gûî Gûî GûêGûêGûàGûâGûé IGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûê] GùÑGèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGùñn++

CCP MC Peanut C C P C C P Alliance 169	Posted - 2014.05.15 07:28:00 - [202] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: I kinda get the feeling that he just doesn't believe us or something. Is this going to be a situation where the community is all going to say something and Z is just going to say screw it and do things his own way anyhow? Because that's largely the feeling I'm getting. I'm starting to get that impression too. At least with CCP MC Peanut, we can be sure that our feedback is being considered for the HUD design. I'm not sure I can say the same for CCP Z in regards to the progression system he has laid out for us. Well, what I am doing mostly is trying to convey the system and explain its possibilities. I am not able to make any decisions on if we actually adopt feedback. I can really only comment on possibilities and methods, which is going to be less contentious than giving an absolute yes or no. Design decisions are a bit easier to have contrasting opinions on than a pipeline or technology call, and I know I would not be very good at it and am much more happy that I can defer to CCP Z's expertise.

DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 293	Posted - 2014.05.15 07:29:00 - [203] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: CCP Z. Multiple times you have stated that "EVE: Legion is not EVE". But I think you're misunderstanding. DUST 514, and consequently EVE: Legion, was supposed to be for people who wanted to have an EVE-like experience in a different format. That was the original intent of DUST 514. And yet, for some reason, CCP Shanghai has been moving away from that. Look where it's gotten DUST 514. You're doing the exact same thing your predecessors did, CCP Z, to an even worse extent. Don't make the same mistakes they did. CCP has to capitalize on what it has, and what CCP has is EVE. It tried to move away from that and DUST 514 suffered for it. CCP Z is really CCP Blam! in disguise... For those who dont know who CCP Blam! was, he was the genius behind the initial vehicle re balancing that removed the marauder tanks, gave us murder taxis, screwed up the PG skill for vehicles, and generally made the game not fun for anyone to play. he was like some hideous screwed up King Midus with a hand that turned everything to crap instead of gold. i honestly hated him, and when i heard the news that he was no longer employed by CCP, i actually went out to a fancy restaurant and celebrated. Beware CCP's "visions," they usually end up being Incarna, monocles, Walking in Stations, Merc Quarters, and unfortunately Dust 514 now.
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1577	Posted - 2014.05.15 07:36:00 - [204] - Quote CCP MC Peanut wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: I kinda get the feeling that he just doesn't believe us or something. Is this going to be a situation where the community is all going to say something and Z is just going to say screw it and do things his own way anyhow? Because that's largely the feeling I'm getting. I'm starting to get that impression too. At least with CCP MC Peanut, we can be sure that our feedback is being considered for the HUD design. I'm not sure I can say the same for CCP Z in regards to the progression system he has laid out for us. Well, what I am doing mostly is trying to convey the system and explain its possibilities. I am not able to make any decisions on if we actually adopt feedback. I can really only comment on possibilities and methods, which is going to be less contentious than giving an absolute yes or no. Design decisions are a bit easier to have contrasting opinions on than a pipeline or technology call, and I know I would not be very good at it and am much more happy that I can defer to CCP Z's expertise. Don't try to defend CCP Z, or we may start disliking you, too. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.

CCP Saberwing C C P C C P Alliance 4647	Posted - 2014.05.15 07:49:00 - [205] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: Don't try to defend CCP Z, or we may start disliking you, too. His post was effectively made up of factual statements. And regardless, he's entitled to defend whomever he wants. PS. I <3 CCP Z CCP Saberwing // DUST 514 Community Manager // @kanafchian


CCP Blowout C C P C C P Alliance 559	Posted - 2014.05.15 07:51:00 - [206] - Quote I for one would hate to be called names by strangers on the Internet. Part man, part Internet.

Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1577	Posted - 2014.05.15 07:57:00 - [207] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: Don't try to defend CCP Z, or we may start disliking you, too. His post was effectively made up of factual statements. And regardless, he's entitled to defend whomever he wants. PS. I <3 CCP Z I'm obviously joking. No one would ever dislike someone for such a petty reason. ...usually. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1305	Posted - 2014.05.15 07:59:00 - [208] - Quote CCP Blowout wrote: I for one would hate to be called names by strangers on the Internet. Have a like. o7 CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University

CCP Saberwing C C P C C P Alliance 4650	Posted - 2014.05.15 08:01:00 - [209] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: I'm obviously joking. No one would ever dislike someone for such a petty reason. ...usually. You'd be surprised! Internet spaceships are serious business. CCP Saberwing // DUST 514 Community Manager // @kanafchian

Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1578	Posted - 2014.05.15 08:03:00 - [210] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: I'm obviously joking. No one would ever dislike someone for such a petty reason. ...usually. You'd be surprised! Internet spaceships are serious business. Fortunately, internet spaceships are nowhere to be found. Therefore, one must assume that serious business is also nowhere to be found. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.

Fenix Alexarr BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 116	Posted - 2014.05.15 08:04:00 - [211] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: Don't try to defend CCP Z, or we may start disliking you, too. His post was effectively made up of factual statements. And regardless, he's entitled to defend whomever he wants. PS. I <3 CCP Z and props to you devs. The odd hours that are going on in this thread... That all being said, we know that you are wanting to get away from the current system. We're telling you as respectfully as possible that this new way of progressing through a game isn't new. It's been tried and true in games that are not in line with what CCP has stated as their long term goals. Listen to us or don't. We're all just spouting opinions and defending ideas that may not ever see the light of day... This entire thread has been nothing but talking about how SP and 5 levels of skills is beneficial to the game as a whole when stacked up against games like COD and BFx. Fix the NPE and the bonuses associated with the current skilling and item system and you will have a recipe for success on the the PC. If that's all you take from this, the game will be far better off for it. It's not like we're trying to attack Z personally. It's this idea that Eve/Dust is doing it so wrong that most people here are attacking. On the list of things that need fixed for a PC release, that is literally at the bottom of the list. Focus on providing a better wrapper for this candy of a skill system and you will have more, longer-term players flock to you than you know what to do with.
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1578	Posted - 2014.05.15 08:07:00 - [212] - Quote Yeah, in all seriousness, this new progression system that CCP Z presented is really not good. You should be moving as far away from typical FPS games as possible, and in a way that promotes creativity. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
Grimmiers 544	Posted - 2014.05.15 08:09:00 - [213] - Quote Will there be certain skills that are shared between Different trees to alleviate jumping around for skills that you know would help your playstyle? For instance a scout and a logi would possibly want to have a increased hacking speed skill. Will they share the same skill upgrade if you unlock it on one path, or would they be separate bonuses tied to that tree/dropsuit. I see what you're going for, but I want to get a picture of how flexible the new system will be. I heard you mention wild card skills as well which to me sounds like an planned aurum option.
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1305	Posted - 2014.05.15 08:10:00 - [214] - Quote There are three Dev's currently following this thread in real time. If that is not a statement of serious intent.... CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Samael Artico Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 115	Posted - 2014.05.15 08:31:00 - [215] - Quote EVE has a better NPE than DUST 514. Just felt like pointing that out.
Funkmaster Whale Ancient Exiles. 2253	Posted - 2014.05.15 08:35:00 - [216] - Quote I am going to go ahead and agree that the new system seems kind of bogus to me. It seems to stray towards streamlining roles into "classes" via the tree thing. The current system in DUST is awesome just like EVE's system is awesome. The biggest problem is that it just lacks information. Seriously, you could just add a separate tab on each skill that says "Items Unlocked" or something that would tell you which items are unlocked at which level. CCP Z I believe mentioned this as one of the issues with the current system. The same goes with other aspects of the skill system. If there were more immediate and adequate resources provided to the player to understand the information it would go a long way in understanding how the game works. Right now there's nothing in DUST itself that explains damage-types, shield/armor discrepancies, weapon efficincies, scanning related things, etc. A game as compelling as DUST needs some sort of Glossary or Compendium that explains things to the players that they would like to learn more about. It DOESN'T need to be dumbed down and simplified into trees and "Click here to advance!" type skills. I would really hate to see DUST turn into a game that holds the player's hand. "Skill requirements" are one thing, but tiered tree-type skilling is really lame to be honest. Complete freedom is the way to go. Follow me on Twitch.tv!
Syeven Reed G0DS AM0NG MEN 639	Posted - 2014.05.15 08:36:00 - [217] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: I'm obviously joking. No one would ever dislike someone for such a petty reason. ...usually. You'd be surprised! Internet spaceships are serious business. We don't fly spaceships.... Twitter MajLagSpike CPM Application
Negris Albedo Nuevo Atlas Corporation 60	Posted - 2014.05.15 08:37:00 - [218] - Quote Perhaps CCP could take some inspiration for this.
Pseudogenesis Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 178	Posted - 2014.05.15 08:39:00 - [219] - Quote CCP Blowout wrote: I for one would hate to be called names by strangers on the Internet. Well, that's because you're a doodoo head. Stabby-stabber extraordinaire
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1580	Posted - 2014.05.15 08:41:00 - [220] - Quote Pseudogenesis wrote: CCP Blowout wrote: I for one would hate to be called names by strangers on the Internet. Well, that's because you're a doodoo head. Ooooooh! Sick burn, man. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.

Celus Ivara DUST University Ivy League 192	Posted - 2014.05.15 08:48:00 - [221] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: CCP Z wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: I strongly suggest that EVE: Legion adopt a progression system that mirrors EVE Online. I don't see why not. And I am strongly working doing the opposite for the reasons stated 20 times in this thread :) Take EVE's progression system, mirror it, then streamline it. Now, create an analogue to ISIS for players to use. Congratulations, you now have a system that is easy to understand as well as non-restrictive. Can you find any flaws in my logic? (A note: My apologies at quoting you Ulysses, I'm actually addressing many people at once with this post.) Firstly if I may, the skill tree we're using in Dust has some deep intrinsic problems in it. It makes sense to us because we've been using it for the last year, but it is hyper unintuitive to the new player. And, iIt's more than just Dropsuit Command doing nothing at level 5. -Some skills unlock gear at 1/3/5. -Others unlock gear at 1/2/3/4/5. -Some skills give buffs to gear (confusingly called "efficacy"), in addition to unlocking gear. -There's "core skills" that give universal buffs to suits. -"Hacking" gives universal buffs, while ALSO unlocking gear. -Skills exist that have no purpose other than unlocking other skills. -"Which of these 4 shield skills is the one that gives me more health?" -To figure out what an item is you have to leave the skill menu, enter the Market, press the secret "Show Info" button, and toggle out of the flavor text to the attributes. Yes. Our present skill tree "works". But by no means does it "work well". I know it's counter-intuitive, but user-friendly and deep are not mutually exclusive things. There is a difference between bad-complexity and good-complexity. Secondly, many here are making the argument: "The present skill tree is EVE's skill-tree, and EVE's skill-tree is perfect so why are we changing it?" There's two parts to this argument so let's break it down: 1: "The present skill-tree is EVE's skill-tree,..." Actually it's not. EVE's system relies upon Attributes, implants, neural remaps, solely Passive learning of a specific skill, subscriptions, and EVE bonuses are granted by the Ships after checking the Skill level while Dust bonuses are granted by the Skill to the Dropsuits (which sounds like the same thing, but is different and subtly causes massive issues for balancing), ...to name but a few. Just as I've taught many FPS players how the Dust skill-tree works, I've also taught EVE players how Dust works and they've been just as confused. 2: "... EVE's skill-tree is perfect so why are we changing it?" EVE's skill-tree was not pulled from the Ark of the Covenant. Nor is it Euler's Identity, nor a pyrite crystal. It's a "messy" solution cobbled together by human hands in response to a very specific problem. It has had both in the past (eg: Learning Skills) and today (eg: Drone Skills) many issues. It is not an immaculate solution to a shared problem. Lastly, there is another argument people are making: "Dust/Legion should be EVE, but on the planets. And thus we should be mimicking EVE's gameplay as much as possible." This is obviously related to the above statement, but comes at it from the angle of gameplay as opposed to the skill-tree. As such, I'll respond to it from a different angle. Allow me to be straightforward: EVE is an amazing sandbox, with battles where thousands of players led by gods tear away at each other, filled with spying, politics and altruism, where your cunning and ambition shape your future as much as any character stats you may have. EVE is a glorious story-engine with one teeny-tiny problem: It is not fun to play. Do you want Planetary Conquest 2.0 to be a 5 hour POS grind? Do you want PvE to be so simplistic many people bot it with trivial programs? Do you want to have to run two accounts at once to have access to basic reconnaissance? Do you want Dust to also become the "game you play while you're doing something else"? Should Dust be "Spreadsheets on Planets"? If you think that sounds great then you know what? That's fine! Only you know what you find fun. No one can tell you otherwise. :) But here's the thing, that game already exists, it's called EVE Online. EVE is very, very, very good at being EVE. But, if you want a sandbox/MMO/FPS, well we're going to have build that. And since no other game has done that, we'll have to invent. Which means iteration. Which means occasionally tearing down the old and replacing it with the new. Our present skill system works. But by no means does it work well. Let's find something that does. :) Supporting Kevall Longstride, CEO of DUST University, for CPM1
jenza aranda BetaMax. 3305	Posted - 2014.05.15 08:52:00 - [222] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: I'm obviously joking. No one would ever dislike someone for such a petty reason. ...usually. You'd be surprised! Internet spaceships are serious business. There are internet spaceships in dust now? :P Dust 514 101 // Dust 514 Wiki

CCP Saberwing C C P C C P Alliance 4654	Posted - 2014.05.15 08:53:00 - [223] - Quote Celus Ivara wrote: Insert long post here. Loved this. I agree completely. CCP Saberwing // DUST 514 Community Manager // @kanafchian

DIXI Flatline Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 3	Posted - 2014.05.15 08:53:00 - [224] - Quote ... hmmm.... thinking..... please hold the line..... thinking... Okay .... so what roadmap do we have here. What I have seen in the videos, we have a functional Grafik engine. We have some Maps and we could play on the PC. Give us an server with a five simple classes. and give us the option to fit our chars. You want to built up a vision with us, so lets do this and we start all with ALPHA 0.1 :-) I think nobody need a skill tree in the first time. First we need some fun and action :-). So I hope I made my point. ps.: sorry for my English, I am a natural german speaker. DIXI Flatline - Austrian EvE Community - ingame: =Österreich= -

CCP Saberwing C C P C C P Alliance 4654	Posted - 2014.05.15 08:53:00 - [225] - Quote jenza aranda wrote: There are internet spaceships in dust now? :P Well, there are MCCs! Bah, forum-nerds. CCP Saberwing // DUST 514 Community Manager // @kanafchian

Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1580	Posted - 2014.05.15 08:55:00 - [226] - Quote Celus Ivara wrote: snip Holy freakin' crap, that's a lot of text. Not to mention most of it is wrong. Please shorten your post and I'll consider debating it. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
Argo Filch Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 75	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:00:00 - [227] - Quote All this discussion about progression! i`m so psyched and really looking forward to playing EVE: "Candy Crush" Legion. So shut up and take my money already!
Celus Ivara DUST University Ivy League 193	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:01:00 - [228] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: Celus Ivara wrote: Insert long post here. Loved this. I agree completely. Aaaand I put it at the tail end of a page; no one will see it now. Supporting Kevall Longstride, CEO of DUST University, for CPM1
Leeroy Gannarsein Shining Flame Amarr Empire 92	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:03:00 - [229] - Quote Okay, I have one question for CCP. I am not generally opposed to the proposed progression system. I have no issues with being forced to skill up multiple suits to use a particular combination of gear - at the moment of writing I've two proto large turrets for a fully specced HAV, five or six proto weapons of varying sizes, a proto Assault, a proto Logi, a level 4 Sentinel (would be five only I've got heaps of AUR suits from the faction packs and from the Mauler event) and I'm currently skilling up a scout frame. I'm very diversified, and I don't see it as a problem. It's inevitable with the design of the skill tree even in DUST - eventually you run out of things to skill, so you start a new build. But I do have one question, still, and it may even be a problem. How are modules going to be accessed? If I want to tank an Assault suit, do I need to spec Sentinels first? If I want to fit repairers to my Sentinel, do I need to skill Logistics? Obviously I've no idea what modules would go where, but the general idea is there. It would be very bad for the NPE if to make basic customisation of your dropsuit you were required to skill multiple frame sizes. I have 41M SP. Most people don't. If you can wrangle it so that modules (or at least general modules like armour, shields and damage) are not tied to a frame... Well. Then I, for one, welcome our new CCP Overlords. AND ALSO I AGREE WITH CELUS MY ACTUAL NAME IS LORHAK It would seem like wisdom, but for the warning in my heart... CCP BLOWOUT FOR CPM1
Aoena Rays Bragian Order Amarr Empire 459	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:03:00 - [230] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: Holy freakin' crap, that's a lot of text. Not to mention most of it is wrong. Please shorten your post and I'll consider debating it. Way to be a douche towards people that actually analyze things rationally. Good contribution to the thread indeed. Thanks! CCP Rouge confirms your stuff will be moved from DUST to LEGION. Stop stupid biomassing.

Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1580	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:04:00 - [231] - Quote Celus Ivara wrote: CCP Saberwing wrote: Celus Ivara wrote: Insert long post here. Loved this. I agree completely. Aaaand I put it at the tail end of a page; no one will see it now. Good. It's an eyesore. Aoena Rays wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: Holy freakin' crap, that's a lot of text. Not to mention most of it is wrong. Please shorten your post and I'll consider debating it. Way to be a douche towards people that actually analyze things rationally. Good contribution to the thread indeed. Thanks! What? I said "please". I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
Celus Ivara DUST University Ivy League 193	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:05:00 - [232] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: Celus Ivara wrote: snip Holy freakin' crap, that's a lot of text. Not to mention most of it is wrong. Please shorten your post and I'll consider debating it. I put a lot of effort into formatting it. It's not that hard to read. Supporting Kevall Longstride, CEO of DUST University, for CPM1
Leeroy Gannarsein Shining Flame Amarr Empire 92	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:05:00 - [233] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: Celus Ivara wrote: snip Holy freakin' crap, that's a lot of text. Not to mention most of it is wrong. Please shorten your post and I'll consider debating it. Ulysses Knapse wrote: Be careful. If you start defending CCP Z, we may start disliking you, too. You are a good debater. (Was that too flame-y? I'll delete it if it was... ) MY ACTUAL NAME IS LORHAK It would seem like wisdom, but for the warning in my heart... CCP BLOWOUT FOR CPM1
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1580	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:09:00 - [234] - Quote Celus Ivara wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: Celus Ivara wrote: snip Holy freakin' crap, that's a lot of text. Not to mention most of it is wrong. Please shorten your post and I'll consider debating it. I put a lot of effort into formatting it. It's not that hard to read. You quoted me even though you weren't addressing me alone. Why should I read such an overly long post when I can't even tell which parts of your argument are engaging me and which parts are not? I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
Leeroy Gannarsein Shining Flame Amarr Empire 92	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:11:00 - [235] - Quote Celus Ivara wrote: CCP Saberwing wrote: Celus Ivara wrote: Insert long post here. Loved this. I agree completely. Aaaand I put it at the tail end of a page; no one will see it now. I saved it :) MY ACTUAL NAME IS LORHAK It would seem like wisdom, but for the warning in my heart... CCP BLOWOUT FOR CPM1
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1306	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:13:00 - [236] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: Celus Ivara wrote: Insert long post here. Loved this. I agree completely. Agreed. Boss post there Celus, o7 CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1580	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:14:00 - [237] - Quote Honestly, is this the time of day that all the CCP apologists come out? I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
Celus Ivara DUST University Ivy League 201	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:19:00 - [238] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: Celus Ivara wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: Celus Ivara wrote: snip Holy freakin' crap, that's a lot of text. Not to mention most of it is wrong. Please shorten your post and I'll consider debating it. I put a lot of effort into formatting it. It's not that hard to read. You quoted me even though you weren't addressing me alone. Why should I read such an overly long post when I can't even tell which parts of your argument are engaging me and which parts are not? I get the confusion. As I said, I wasn't so much addressing you as I am a broad collection of issues that many in this thread are working on. I needed a pull-quote to summerize them and your's was rather on point so I chose that one. :) I get that when one is quoted like that, it comes off as a gauntlet being thrown down. Not my intention on a personal level. :) That said though, given that I was trying to help us parse the issues Progressions faces, if you have any thoughts on those issues I'd like to hear them. You said: "Not to mention most of it is wrong." Which parts? :) Supporting Kevall Longstride, CEO of DUST University, for CPM1
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2096	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:19:00 - [239] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: Celus Ivara wrote: Insert long post here. Loved this. I agree completely. Players make long posts when issues matter to them. There are a lot of solid arguments in this thread, with players and fully explaining their motivations and concerns. PSN: RationalSpark
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 13275	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:20:00 - [240] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: Honestly, is this the time of day that all the CCP apologists come out? Ulysses, you are repeatedly refusing to debate entirely rational points by bitching about the people disagreeing with you and evading their points as much as you can. If you are not ready to discuss this in a civil fashion, you should get out of this thread. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.

Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1580	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:28:00 - [241] - Quote Celus Ivara wrote: And it's more than just Dropsuit Command doing nothing at level 5. - Some skills unlock gear at 1/3/5. - Others unlock gear at 1/2/3/4/5. - Some skills give buffs to gear (confusingly called "efficacy"), in addition to unlocking gear. - There's "core skills" that give universal buffs to suits. - "Hacking" gives universal buffs, while ALSO unlocking gear. - Skills exist that have no purpose other than unlocking other skills. - "Which of these 4 shield skills is the one that gives me more health?" - To figure out what an item is you have to leave the skill menu, enter the Market, press the secret "Show Info" button, and toggle out of the flavor text to the attributes. Current system is bad, we get it. That's why I suggested redoing it but better. Celus Ivara wrote: Secondly, many here are making the argument: "The present skill tree is EVE's skill-tree, and EVE's skill-tree is perfect so why are we changing it?" There's two parts to this argument so let's break it down: 1: "The present skill-tree is EVE's skill-tree,..." Actually it's not. EVE's system relies upon Attributes, implants, neural remaps, solely Passive learning of a specific skill, subscriptions, and EVE bonuses are granted by the Ships after checking the Skill level while Dust bonuses are granted by the Skill to the Dropsuits (which sounds like the same thing, but is different and subtly causes massive issues for balancing), ...to name but a few. No one is saying that it's the same as EVE. It's only inspired by it. Poorly, I might add. Celus Ivara wrote: 2: "...EVE's skill-tree is perfect so why are we changing it?" EVE's skill-tree was not pulled from the Ark of the Covenant. Nor is it Euler's Identity, nor a pyrite crystal. It's a "messy" solution cobbled together by human hands in response to a very specific problem. It has had both in the past (eg: Learning Skills) and today (eg: Drone Skills) many issues. It is not an immaculate solution to a shared problem. Lastly, there is another argument people are making: "Dust/Legion should be EVE, but on the planets. And thus we should be mimicking EVE's gameplay as much as possible." This is obviously related to the above statement, but comes at it from the angle of gameplay as opposed to the skill-tree. As such, I'll respond to it from a different angle. Allow me to be straightforward: EVE is an amazing sandbox, with battles where thousands of players led by gods tear away at each other, filled with spying, politics and altruism, where your cunning and ambition shape your future as much as any character stats you may have. EVE is a glorious story-engine with one teeny-tiny problem: It is not fun to play. Do you want Planetary Conquest 2.0 to be a 5 hour POS grind? Do you want PvE to be so simplistic many people bot it with trivial programs? Do you want to have to run two accounts at once to have access to basic reconnaissance? Do you want Dust to also become the "game you play while you're doing something else"? Should Dust be "Spreadsheets on Planets"? If you think that sounds great then you know what? That's fine! Only you know what you find fun. No one can tell you otherwise. :) But here's the thing, that game already exists, it's called EVE Online. EVE is very, very, very good at being EVE. But if you want a sandbox/MMO/FPS, well we're going to have build that. And since no other game has done that, we'll have to invent. Which means iteration. Which means occasionally tearing down the old and replacing it with the new. Our present skill system works. But by no means does it work well. Let's find something that does. :) This whole chunk is mostly irrelevant. The current problems with EVE's skill system are due to it being a +10-year old patchwork quilt, not because the concept is bad. Furthermore, no one is suggesting that EVE: Legion become just like EVE except without spaceships. They are asking for an MMOFPS that is a meaningful part of the EVE universe. In short, you could make an EVE-inspired skill system without any of these problems. Well, at least you should be able to. Not sure why CCP ****** up so badly last time. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 218	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:30:00 - [242] - Quote Celus Ivara wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: CCP Z wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: I strongly suggest that EVE: Legion adopt a progression system that mirrors EVE Online. I don't see why not. And I am strongly working doing the opposite for the reasons stated 20 times in this thread :) Take EVE's progression system, mirror it, then streamline it. Now, create an analogue to ISIS for players to use. Congratulations, you now have a system that is easy to understand as well as non-restrictive. Can you find any flaws in my logic? (A note: My apologies at quoting you Ulysses, I'm actually addressing many people at once with this post.) Firstly, the skill tree we're using in Dust has some deep intrinsic problems in it. It makes sense to us because we've been using it for the last year, but it is hyper unintuitive to the new player. And it's more than just Dropsuit Command doing nothing at level 5. - Some skills unlock gear at 1/3/5. - Others unlock gear at 1/2/3/4/5. - Some skills give buffs to gear (confusingly called "efficacy"), in addition to unlocking gear. - There's "core skills" that give universal buffs to suits. - "Hacking" gives universal buffs, while ALSO unlocking gear. - Skills exist that have no purpose other than unlocking other skills. - "Which of these 4 shield skills is the one that gives me more health?" - To figure out what an item is you have to leave the skill menu, enter the Market, press the secret "Show Info" button, and toggle out of the flavor text to the attributes. Yes. Our present skill tree "works". But by no means does it "work well". I know it's counter-intuitive, but user-friendly and deep are not mutually exclusive things. There is a difference between bad-complexity and good-complexity. Secondly, many here are making the argument: "The present skill tree is EVE's skill-tree, and EVE's skill-tree is perfect so why are we changing it?" There's two parts to this argument so let's break it down: 1: "The present skill-tree is EVE's skill-tree,..." Actually it's not. EVE's system relies upon Attributes, implants, neural remaps, solely Passive learning of a specific skill, subscriptions, and EVE bonuses are granted by the Ships after checking the Skill level while Dust bonuses are granted by the Skill to the Dropsuits (which sounds like the same thing, but is different and subtly causes massive issues for balancing), ...to name but a few. Just as I've taught many FPS players how the Dust skill-tree works, I've also taught EVE players how Dust works and they've been just as confused. 2: "...EVE's skill-tree is perfect so why are we changing it?" EVE's skill-tree was not pulled from the Ark of the Covenant. Nor is it Euler's Identity, nor a pyrite crystal. It's a "messy" solution cobbled together by human hands in response to a very specific problem. It has had both in the past (eg: Learning Skills) and today (eg: Drone Skills) many issues. It is not an immaculate solution to a shared problem. Lastly, there is another argument people are making: "Dust/Legion should be EVE, but on the planets. And thus we should be mimicking EVE's gameplay as much as possible." This is obviously related to the above statement, but comes at it from the angle of gameplay as opposed to the skill-tree. As such, I'll respond to it from a different angle. Allow me to be straightforward: EVE is an amazing sandbox, with battles where thousands of players led by gods tear away at each other, filled with spying, politics and altruism, where your cunning and ambition shape your future as much as any character stats you may have. EVE is a glorious story-engine with one teeny-tiny problem: It is not fun to play. Do you want Planetary Conquest 2.0 to be a 5 hour POS grind? Do you want PvE to be so simplistic many people bot it with trivial programs? Do you want to have to run two accounts at once to have access to basic reconnaissance? Do you want Dust to also become the "game you play while you're doing something else"? Should Dust be "Spreadsheets on Planets"? If you think that sounds great then you know what? That's fine! Only you know what you find fun. No one can tell you otherwise. :) But here's the thing, that game already exists, it's called EVE Online. EVE is very, very, very good at being EVE. But if you want a sandbox/MMO/FPS, well we're going to have build that. And since no other game has done that, we'll have to invent. Which means iteration. Which means occasionally tearing down the old and replacing it with the new. Our present skill system works. But by no means does it work well. Let's find something that does. :) Excellent post :-) +1
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1580	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:31:00 - [243] - Quote Regis Blackbird wrote: Celus Ivara wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: CCP Z wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: I strongly suggest that EVE: Legion adopt a progression system that mirrors EVE Online. I don't see why not. And I am strongly working doing the opposite for the reasons stated 20 times in this thread :) Take EVE's progression system, mirror it, then streamline it. Now, create an analogue to ISIS for players to use. Congratulations, you now have a system that is easy to understand as well as non-restrictive. Can you find any flaws in my logic? (A note: My apologies at quoting you Ulysses, I'm actually addressing many people at once with this post.) Firstly, the skill tree we're using in Dust has some deep intrinsic problems in it. It makes sense to us because we've been using it for the last year, but it is hyper unintuitive to the new player. And it's more than just Dropsuit Command doing nothing at level 5. - Some skills unlock gear at 1/3/5. - Others unlock gear at 1/2/3/4/5. - Some skills give buffs to gear (confusingly called "efficacy"), in addition to unlocking gear. - There's "core skills" that give universal buffs to suits. - "Hacking" gives universal buffs, while ALSO unlocking gear. - Skills exist that have no purpose other than unlocking other skills. - "Which of these 4 shield skills is the one that gives me more health?" - To figure out what an item is you have to leave the skill menu, enter the Market, press the secret "Show Info" button, and toggle out of the flavor text to the attributes. Yes. Our present skill tree "works". But by no means does it "work well". I know it's counter-intuitive, but user-friendly and deep are not mutually exclusive things. There is a difference between bad-complexity and good-complexity. Secondly, many here are making the argument: "The present skill tree is EVE's skill-tree, and EVE's skill-tree is perfect so why are we changing it?" There's two parts to this argument so let's break it down: 1: "The present skill-tree is EVE's skill-tree,..." Actually it's not. EVE's system relies upon Attributes, implants, neural remaps, solely Passive learning of a specific skill, subscriptions, and EVE bonuses are granted by the Ships after checking the Skill level while Dust bonuses are granted by the Skill to the Dropsuits (which sounds like the same thing, but is different and subtly causes massive issues for balancing), ...to name but a few. Just as I've taught many FPS players how the Dust skill-tree works, I've also taught EVE players how Dust works and they've been just as confused. 2: "...EVE's skill-tree is perfect so why are we changing it?" EVE's skill-tree was not pulled from the Ark of the Covenant. Nor is it Euler's Identity, nor a pyrite crystal. It's a "messy" solution cobbled together by human hands in response to a very specific problem. It has had both in the past (eg: Learning Skills) and today (eg: Drone Skills) many issues. It is not an immaculate solution to a shared problem. Lastly, there is another argument people are making: "Dust/Legion should be EVE, but on the planets. And thus we should be mimicking EVE's gameplay as much as possible." This is obviously related to the above statement, but comes at it from the angle of gameplay as opposed to the skill-tree. As such, I'll respond to it from a different angle. Allow me to be straightforward: EVE is an amazing sandbox, with battles where thousands of players led by gods tear away at each other, filled with spying, politics and altruism, where your cunning and ambition shape your future as much as any character stats you may have. EVE is a glorious story-engine with one teeny-tiny problem: It is not fun to play. Do you want Planetary Conquest 2.0 to be a 5 hour POS grind? Do you want PvE to be so simplistic many people bot it with trivial programs? Do you want to have to run two accounts at once to have access to basic reconnaissance? Do you want Dust to also become the "game you play while you're doing something else"? Should Dust be "Spreadsheets on Planets"? If you think that sounds great then you know what? That's fine! Only you know what you find fun. No one can tell you otherwise. :) But here's the thing, that game already exists, it's called EVE Online. EVE is very, very, very good at being EVE. But if you want a sandbox/MMO/FPS, well we're going to have build that. And since no other game has done that, we'll have to invent. Which means iteration. Which means occasionally tearing down the old and replacing it with the new. Our present skill system works. But by no means does it work well. Let's find something that does. :) Excellent post :-) +1 I just explained why it is not an excellent post, good sir. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.

CCP Blowout C C P C C P Alliance 580	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:34:00 - [244] - Quote It's very important to quote the post above yours just to be certain, especially if it is incredibly long and contains other quotes. Part man, part Internet.

Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1580	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:38:00 - [245] - Quote CCP Blowout wrote: It's very important to quote the post above yours just to be certain, especially if it is incredibly long and contains other quotes. Indeed. The only time you can get away with no quoting is if you are referring directly to the OP. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.

CCP Saberwing C C P C C P Alliance 4659	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:44:00 - [246] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: Indeed. The only time you can get away with no quoting is if you are referring directly to the OP. I concur. Quoting Ulysses' post to ensure clarity. CCP Saberwing // DUST 514 Community Manager // @kanafchian

Samael Artico Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 116	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:46:00 - [247] - Quote CCP. I strongly urge you not to go through with this new progression system. Instead, you should focus on streamlining and improving on what you already have. But I know you probably won't listen. You don't care about us, you only care about the money.

CCP Blowout C C P C C P Alliance 580	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:47:00 - [248] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: CCP Blowout wrote: It's very important to quote the post above yours just to be certain, especially if it is incredibly long and contains other quotes. Indeed. The only time you can get away with no quoting is if you are referring directly to the OP. Not really. Sometimes you can just reply to the thread above yours, or edit the content of the quote if it will just result in scrolling once more through the content of the post above it. I look forward to more discussion on progression and less on forum etiquette - LET'S GO PEOPLE! Part man, part Internet.

Leeroy Gannarsein Shining Flame Amarr Empire 93	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:48:00 - [249] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: Current system is bad, we get it. That's why I suggested redoing it but better. What would you recommend? MY ACTUAL NAME IS LORHAK It would seem like wisdom, but for the warning in my heart... CCP BLOWOUT FOR CPM1
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1580	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:51:00 - [250] - Quote Leeroy Gannarsein wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: Current system is bad, we get it. That's why I suggested redoing it but better. What would you recommend? Something simple, yet elegant. One that allows great freedom and is easy to understand. There's no reason we can't have both. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.

XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws Proficiency V. 1312	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:59:00 - [251] - Quote The reason that dust was not as popular as other fps was that there was not a good npe to teach the core mechanics. Anyone that played dust and left was not of the difficulties of the skill system but the dificulty of having to play against less than balanced mechanics at one point or another. I feel that new devs are trying to leave their mark by making something new but tbh, and i will be very sincere, some of the things posted on the initital post sounded borderline arrogant. A mistake devs at CCP shanghai did was exactly that. Arrogance in the face of facts or publuc oppinion. Thinking they where right and not listening to the community. Adding to that, saying that legion will not be eve is insulting to the eve community in general. The game has lasted years beyond what many mainstream and easy games have lasted but.... The difficulty of EvE has nothing to do with its skill system either making me believe that legion is getting its skilltree done on a basis of misunderstaning and misguided belief that it is the culprit for dusts flaws. If the skilltree in dust ever had flaws it was that the devs dealing with it also had a poor understanding of it and implemented a broken 1/3/5 system that never really existed in eve online hence doing a feeble attempt at something they didnt fully understand. I am not giving any feedback towards this new system since, after reading the initial post, i am completely convinved that you, CCP Z, will do what you want up to the exyent you are permitted, as showed by the initial post and those following it. Plasma Cannon Advocate Dust 514 Survivor
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2851	Posted - 2014.05.15 10:01:00 - [252] - Quote Celus Ivara wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: CCP Z wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: I strongly suggest that EVE: Legion adopt a progression system that mirrors EVE Online. I don't see why not. And I am strongly working doing the opposite for the reasons stated 20 times in this thread :) Take EVE's progression system, mirror it, then streamline it. Now, create an analogue to ISIS for players to use. Congratulations, you now have a system that is easy to understand as well as non-restrictive. Can you find any flaws in my logic? (A note: My apologies at quoting you Ulysses, I'm actually addressing many people at once with this post.) Firstly, the skill tree we're using in Dust has some deep intrinsic problems in it. It makes sense to us because we've been using it for the last year, but it is hyper unintuitive to the new player. And it's more than just Dropsuit Command doing nothing at level 5. - Some skills unlock gear at 1/3/5. - Others unlock gear at 1/2/3/4/5. - Some skills give buffs to gear (confusingly called "efficacy"), in addition to unlocking gear. - There's "core skills" that give universal buffs to suits. - "Hacking" gives universal buffs, while ALSO unlocking gear. - Skills exist that have no purpose other than unlocking other skills. - "Which of these 4 shield skills is the one that gives me more health?" - To figure out what an item is you have to leave the skill menu, enter the Market, press the secret "Show Info" button, and toggle out of the flavor text to the attributes. Yes. Our present skill tree "works". But by no means does it "work well". I know it's counter-intuitive, but user-friendly and deep are not mutually exclusive things. There is a difference between bad-complexity and good-complexity. Secondly, many here are making the argument: "The present skill tree is EVE's skill-tree, and EVE's skill-tree is perfect so why are we changing it?" There's two parts to this argument so let's break it down: 1: "The present skill-tree is EVE's skill-tree,..." Actually it's not. EVE's system relies upon Attributes, implants, neural remaps, solely Passive learning of a specific skill, subscriptions, and EVE bonuses are granted by the Ships after checking the Skill level while Dust bonuses are granted by the Skill to the Dropsuits (which sounds like the same thing, but is different and subtly causes massive issues for balancing), ...to name but a few. Just as I've taught many FPS players how the Dust skill-tree works, I've also taught EVE players how Dust works and they've been just as confused. 2: "...EVE's skill-tree is perfect so why are we changing it?" EVE's skill-tree was not pulled from the Ark of the Covenant. Nor is it Euler's Identity, nor a pyrite crystal. It's a "messy" solution cobbled together by human hands in response to a very specific problem. It has had both in the past (eg: Learning Skills) and today (eg: Drone Skills) many issues. It is not an immaculate solution to a shared problem. Lastly, there is another argument people are making: "Dust/Legion should be EVE, but on the planets. And thus we should be mimicking EVE's gameplay as much as possible." This is obviously related to the above statement, but comes at it from the angle of gameplay as opposed to the skill-tree. As such, I'll respond to it from a different angle. Allow me to be straightforward: EVE is an amazing sandbox, with battles where thousands of players led by gods tear away at each other, filled with spying, politics and altruism, where your cunning and ambition shape your future as much as any character stats you may have. EVE is a glorious story-engine with one teeny-tiny problem: It is not fun to play. Do you want Planetary Conquest 2.0 to be a 5 hour POS grind? Do you want PvE to be so simplistic many people bot it with trivial programs? Do you want to have to run two accounts at once to have access to basic reconnaissance? Do you want Dust to also become the "game you play while you're doing something else"? Should Dust be "Spreadsheets on Planets"? If you think that sounds great then you know what? That's fine! Only you know what you find fun. No one can tell you otherwise. :) But here's the thing, that game already exists, it's called EVE Online. EVE is very, very, very good at being EVE. But if you want a sandbox/MMO/FPS, well we're going to have build that. And since no other game has done that, we'll have to invent. Which means iteration. Which means occasionally tearing down the old and replacing it with the new. Our present skill system works. But by no means does it work well. Let's find something that does. :) True but at the same time therd are a lot of positives to the DUST tree, mainly that you can play any role with any weapon pretty quickly, that is a good point about our system that Z wants to take away. If I want to be a sentinel with Plasma Cannon I can do that very easily, if I want to be a Scout with 2 SMG's I can do that. Because the skill tree encourages it, legions does not and I don't understand why Z wants it like that. Looks like its back to FPS Military Shooter 56 Monkey Mac - Just another pile of discarded ashes on the battlefield!
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2280	Posted - 2014.05.15 10:03:00 - [253] - Quote CCP Z wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: I strongly suggest that EVE: Legion adopt a progression system that mirrors EVE Online. I don't see why not. And I am strongly working doing the opposite for the reasons stated 20 times in this thread :) We are saying that that's a bad idea, you know, the people who has been attracted to your game? click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws Proficiency V. 1312	Posted - 2014.05.15 10:06:00 - [254] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: CCP Z wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: I strongly suggest that EVE: Legion adopt a progression system that mirrors EVE Online. I don't see why not. And I am strongly working doing the opposite for the reasons stated 20 times in this thread :) We are saying that that's a bad idea, you know, the people who has been attracted to your game? If it aint broke dont fix it... Plasma Cannon Advocate Dust 514 Survivor
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1583	Posted - 2014.05.15 10:16:00 - [255] - Quote Just finished drafting up a potential skill tree for dropsuits. It's very streamlined and simple. A bit ugly, though. I'm not much of a concept artist, I'm afraid. T1 Dropsuits require Racial Dropsuit Command I. T2 (Specialized) Dropsuits require Racial Dropsuit Command V and Specialized Dropsuits I. I don't see how this could even be remotely a problem to understand, given proper UI. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2280	Posted - 2014.05.15 10:26:00 - [256] - Quote Captain Crutches wrote: I can't say any better what's already been said here. I will just say I love this thread, I love the (mostly) constructive nature of the feedback, and I love that Z is taking the time to answer questions, even if I don't necessarily like all his answers. I will just give a brief TL;DR of my views: Respecs in any form unsettle me a lot, the suit BPO idea unsettles me even more, locking weapons to roles in the progression trees is weird (why must I skill into an entire role I'm not interested in just so I can use its associated weapon?). On the other hand, I literally fist-pumped when I read there will be no more P2W Aurum gear, I raged every time I died to that. My feelings about this system (as it seems to be with most here) lean more toward the negative than the positive overall. I'd love to see concrete examples of it in action (UI mockups, video demos, more than just what Z presented at Fanfest) as I think that would help a lot of us come to more informed conclusions (either "huh, this actually might not be that bad" or "yup, confirmed for awful"), but based on what I know I remain very skeptical. I would echo that a system consistent with Eve will help immersion and emphasize the connection between the games. No, Dust/Legion is not Eve, but they are and should be closely linked in both concrete interaction and feel/mechanics, to keep players of both games grounded in the New Eden universe and facilitate moving from one to the other (you want Legion players' Eve subscription money, don't deny it). Many Eve players will flock to Legion if only to give it a try, and they will be comforted by a similar system that reminds them of where they are. Why do I always write long posts late at night right before I go to bed? I really need to catch up on sleep, why am I here... You know that P2W AUR gear has been removed from the game during the CB, right? click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Celus Ivara DUST University Ivy League 201	Posted - 2014.05.15 10:31:00 - [257] - Quote First off I'd like to say that often times when people find themselves pushed towards opposing sides on an issue, they tend to reflexively take defensive stances and the conversation becomes more of a pitched battle instead of a seeking towards a shared truth. (Akin to the blind men and the elephant.) You responded to the ideas put forward, I'm very happy to see that. :) (Okay, that sounds super insulting, not meant to be.) My goal is-and-has-been to help us figure out what's going on with the issues surrounding the Progression system. Not trying to score "right" points. :) Ulysses Knapse wrote: Celus Ivara wrote: And it's more than just Dropsuit Command doing nothing at level 5. SNIP Character count issues. :\ SNIP Current system is bad, we get it. That's why I suggested redoing it but better. Celus Ivara wrote: Secondly, many here are making the argument: "The present skill tree is EVE's skill-tree, and EVE's skill-tree is perfect so why are we changing it?" There's two parts to this argument so let's break it down: 1: "The present skill-tree is EVE's skill-tree,..." Actually it's not. EVE's system relies upon Attributes, implants, neural remaps, solely Passive learning of a specific skill, subscriptions, and EVE bonuses are granted by the Ships after checking the Skill level while Dust bonuses are granted by the Skill to the Dropsuits (which sounds like the same thing, but is different and subtly causes massive issues for balancing), ...to name but a few. No one is saying that it's the same as EVE. It's only inspired by it. Poorly, I might add. Celus Ivara wrote: 2: "...EVE's skill-tree is perfect so why are we changing it?" EVE's skill-tree was not pulled from the Ark of the Covenant. Nor is it Euler's Identity, nor a pyrite crystal. It's a "messy" solution cobbled together by human hands in response to a very specific problem. It has had both in the past (eg: Learning Skills) and today (eg: Drone Skills) many issues. It is not an immaculate solution to a shared problem. Lastly, there is another argument people are making: "Dust/Legion should be EVE, but on the planets. And thus we should be mimicking EVE's gameplay as much as possible." This is obviously related to the above statement, but comes at it from the angle of gameplay as opposed to the skill-tree. As such, I'll respond to it from a different angle. Allow me to be straightforward: EVE is an amazing sandbox, with battles where thousands of players led by gods tear away at each other, filled with spying, politics and altruism, where your cunning and ambition shape your future as much as any character stats you may have. EVE is a glorious story-engine with one teeny-tiny problem: It is not fun to play. Do you want Planetary Conquest 2.0 to be a 5 hour POS grind? Do you want PvE to be so simplistic many people bot it with trivial programs? Do you want to have to run two accounts at once to have access to basic reconnaissance? Do you want Dust to also become the "game you play while you're doing something else"? Should Dust be "Spreadsheets on Planets"? If you think that sounds great then you know what? That's fine! Only you know what you find fun. No one can tell you otherwise. :) But here's the thing, that game already exists, it's called EVE Online. EVE is very, very, very good at being EVE. But if you want a sandbox/MMO/FPS, well we're going to have build that. And since no other game has done that, we'll have to invent. Which means iteration. Which means occasionally tearing down the old and replacing it with the new. Our present skill system works. But by no means does it work well. Let's find something that does. :) This whole chunk is mostly irrelevant. The current problems with EVE's skill system are due to it being a +10-year old patchwork quilt, not because the concept is bad. Furthermore, no one is suggesting that EVE: Legion become just like EVE except without spaceships. They are asking for an MMOFPS that is a meaningful part of the EVE universe. In short, you could make an EVE-inspired skill system without any of these problems. Well, at least you should be able to. Not sure why CCP **** up so badly last time. Well? Anything else you want to throw at me? Instead of responding point-by-point, I'll try to clarify my OP and hope that that resolves any confusion. :) My post was a response to some things I was seeing people argue (either directly, or as a strong undercurrent to other arguments): - The current progression is fine and should be left alone. - The current progression has problems and should be fixed in the way EVE's progression has been "fixed" (certificates, ISIS, etc..) My post was meant to show that: 1: There are intrinsic problems with the current progression. 2: EVE's progression has a mosaic of problems unto itself, thus shouldn't be considered a panacea for Dust. 3: EVE is fundamentally different from Dust, thus a fix for one won't be a fix for the other. Supporting Kevall Longstride, CEO of DUST University, for CPM1**
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1585	Posted - 2014.05.15 10:42:00 - [258] - Quote I actually don't mind simple skill trees. What I do mind is when they are oversimplified or when they restrict choice. Both of these would seem to apply to CCP Z's progression system. To me, this is an acceptable skill tree for dropsuits. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1308	Posted - 2014.05.15 10:43:00 - [259] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: Regis Blackbird wrote: Excellent post :-) +1 I just explained why it is not an excellent post, good sir. If you genuinely believe that your 'explanation' as to to the poor quality of Celus' post actually countered the rationally explained, forensically delivered, point by point evisceration and breakdown of the many, many faults with the current system that he laid with a hammer blow, then that's fine. But when your response to this.. Ulysses Knapse wrote: Celus Ivara wrote: And it's more than just Dropsuit Command doing nothing at level 5. - Some skills unlock gear at 1/3/5. - Others unlock gear at 1/2/3/4/5. - Some skills give buffs to gear (confusingly called "efficacy"), in addition to unlocking gear. - There's "core skills" that give universal buffs to suits. - "Hacking" gives universal buffs, while ALSO unlocking gear. - Skills exist that have no purpose other than unlocking other skills. - "Which of these 4 shield skills is the one that gives me more health?" - To figure out what an item is you have to leave the skill menu, enter the Market, press the secret "Show Info" button, and toggle out of the flavor text to the attributes. Current system is bad, we get it. That's why I suggested redoing it but better. is simply redo it but do it better, I am reminded of a great Australian turn of phrase, 'You can't polish a turd'. CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Aoena Rays Bragian Order Amarr Empire 460	Posted - 2014.05.15 10:45:00 - [260] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: I actually don't mind simple skill trees. What I do mind is when they are oversimplified or when they restrict choice. Both of these would seem to apply to CCP Z's progression system. To me, this is an acceptable skill tree for dropsuits. 10/10 would hire as a game designer. CCP Rouge confirms your stuff will be moved from DUST to LEGION. Stop stupid biomassing.

Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1585	Posted - 2014.05.15 10:45:00 - [261] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: I am reminded of a great Australian turn of phrase, 'You can't polish a turd'. That analogy doesn't really work. Aoena Rays wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: I actually don't mind simple skill trees. What I do mind is when they are oversimplified or when they restrict choice. Both of these would seem to apply to CCP Z's progression system. To me, this is an acceptable skill tree for dropsuits. 10/10 would hire as a game designer. I don't know how to respond to that. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2280	Posted - 2014.05.15 10:46:00 - [262] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: CCP Z wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: I strongly suggest that EVE: Legion adopt a progression system that mirrors EVE Online. I don't see why not. And I am strongly working doing the opposite for the reasons stated 20 times in this thread :) We are saying that that's a bad idea, you know, the people who has been attracted to your game? If it aint broke dont fix it... Well the system is broke (1/3/5 system for the skills with no bonuses. and forced skills with no bonuses that don't unlock anything). But it is a hell of a lot better than the new one (in not just my eyes, but most eyes). So, I say amen to that. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2851	Posted - 2014.05.15 10:52:00 - [263] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: Just finished drafting up a potential skill tree for dropsuits. It's very streamlined and simple. A bit ugly, though. I'm not much of a concept artist, I'm afraid. T1 Dropsuits require Racial Dropsuit Command I. T2 (Specialized) Dropsuits require Racial Dropsuit Command V and Specialized Dropsuits I. I don't see how this could even be remotely a problem to understand, given proper UI. Goodness me no, that's almost the other extreme of Z's Idea, try this one (sorry about format) -----------------------------/\---------------> Amarr Assault Dropsuit Operation (Further Variations as Suggested by Z) -----------------------------/\---------------> Caldari Assault Dropsuit Operation (Further Variations as Suggested by Z) ------------Assault Dropsuit Operation ----> Gallante Assault Dropsuit Operation (Further Variations as Suggested by Z) --------------/\---- -------\/--------------> Minmatar Assault Dropsuit Operation (Further Variations as Suggedted by Z) Medium Dropsuit Operation --------------\/---- -------/\----------------> Amarr Logistics Dropsuit Operation (...) ------------Logistics Dropsuit Operation----> Caldari Logistics Dropsuot Operation (...) -----------------------------\/----------------> Minmatar Logistics Dropsuit Operation (...) -----------------------------\/----------------> Gallante Logistics Dropsuit Operation (...) You have to break it down a little more, so you start with suit size, the specalization, then faction, then officer gear. Now what you do is then give weapons and modules/equipment a similar based skill tree, interseed all of them with single node skill bonuses (you can even have skill bonuses you have to choose between - Do I want +100% Max Ammo Capacity for explosive weapons or do I want +30% Dropsuit Repair rate on Repair Tools?) In the end people build a suit which suits them perfectly, because not everyone plays the same role in the same way and we should encourage people to do as such. Looks like its back to FPS Military Shooter 56 Monkey Mac - Just another pile of discarded ashes on the battlefield!
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2280	Posted - 2014.05.15 10:55:00 - [264] - Quote Celus Ivara wrote: First off I'd like to say that often times when people find themselves pushed towards opposing sides on an issue, they tend to reflexively take defensive stances and the conversation becomes more of a pitched battle instead of a seeking towards a shared truth. (Akin to the blind men and the elephant.) You responded to the ideas put forward, I'm very happy to see that. :) (Okay, that sounds super insulting, not meant to be.) My goal is-and-has-been to help us figure out what's going on with the issues surrounding the Progression system. Not trying to score "right" points. :) My post was a response to some things I was seeing people argue (either directly, or as a strong undercurrent to other arguments): - The current progression is fine and should be left alone. - The current progression has problems and should be fixed in the way EVE's progression has been "fixed" (certificates, ISIS, etc..) My post was meant to show that: 1: There are intrinsic problems with the current progression. 2: EVE's progression has a mosaic of problems unto itself, thus shouldn't be considered a panacea for Dust. 3: EVE is fundamentally different from Dust, thus a fix for one won't be a fix for the other. Obviously not everything is perfect with EVE's system. We are asking for it's layout basically (bonuses on pretty much every skill, trees that has all similar things in them, no forced skills that has nothing to give). Also, ISIS and certificates are tools to help guide someone along with their progress; a check list if you will. That will pretty much always help if the player uses it (and knows what he/she is looking at). Lastly, if they actually thought the newcomers how to actually use the systems, maybe they would understand more frequently rather than being thrown into the deep in, seeing this massive wall of **, and then saying "** it, it's too much, I quit.". click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2280	Posted - 2014.05.15 10:56:00 - [265] - Quote Celus Ivara wrote: First off I'd like to say that often times when people find themselves pushed towards opposing sides on an issue, they tend to reflexively take defensive stances and the conversation becomes more of a pitched battle instead of a seeking towards a shared truth. (Akin to the blind men and the elephant.) You responded to the ideas put forward, I'm very happy to see that. :) (Okay, that sounds super insulting, not meant to be.) My goal is-and-has-been to help us figure out what's going on with the issues surrounding the Progression system. Not trying to score "right" points. :) My post was a response to some things I was seeing people argue (either directly, or as a strong undercurrent to other arguments): - The current progression is fine and should be left alone. - The current progression has problems and should be fixed in the way EVE's progression has been "fixed" (certificates, ISIS, etc..) My post was meant to show that: 1: There are intrinsic problems with the current progression. 2: EVE's progression has a mosaic of problems unto itself, thus shouldn't be considered a panacea for Dust. 3: EVE is fundamentally different from Dust, thus a fix for one won't be a fix for the other. Obviously not everything is perfect with EVE's system. We are asking for it's layout basically (bonuses on pretty much every skill, trees that has all similar things in them, no forced skills that has nothing to give). Also, ISIS and certificates are tools to help guide someone along with their progress; a check list if you will. That will pretty much always help if the player uses it (and knows what he/she is looking at). Lastly, if they actually thought the newcomers how to actually use the systems, maybe they would understand more frequently rather than being thrown into the deep in, seeing this massive wall of **, and then saying "** it, it's too much, I quit.". I get what you're saying, but I honestly think that that's what everyone here that disagrees with it thinks. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1585	Posted - 2014.05.15 11:02:00 - [266] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: Just finished drafting up a potential skill tree for dropsuits. It's very streamlined and simple. A bit ugly, though. I'm not much of a concept artist, I'm afraid. T1 Dropsuits require Racial Dropsuit Command I. T2 (Specialized) Dropsuits require Racial Dropsuit Command V and Specialized Dropsuits I. I don't see how this could even be remotely a problem to understand, given proper UI. Goodness me no, that's almost the other extreme of Z's Idea, try this one (sorry about format) -----------------------------/\---------------> Amarr Assault Dropsuit Operation (Further Variations as Suggested by Z) -----------------------------/\---------------> Caldari Assault Dropsuit Operation (Further Variations as Suggested by Z) ------------Assault Dropsuit Operation ----> Gallante Assault Dropsuit Operation (Further Variations as Suggested by Z) --------------/\---- -------\/--------------> Minmatar Assault Dropsuit Operation (Further Variations as Suggedted by Z) Medium Dropsuit Operation --------------\/---- -------/\----------------> Amarr Logistics Dropsuit Operation (...) ------------Logistics Dropsuit Operation----> Caldari Logistics Dropsuot Operation (...) -----------------------------\/----------------> Minmatar Logistics Dropsuit Operation (...) -----------------------------\/----------------> Gallante Logistics Dropsuit Operation (...) You have to break it down a little more, so you start with suit size, the specalization, then faction, then officer gear. Now what you do is then give weapons and modules/equipment a similar based skill tree, interseed all of them with single node skill bonuses (you can even have skill bonuses you have to choose between - Do I want +100% Max Ammo Capacity for explosive weapons or do I want +30% Dropsuit Repair rate on Repair Tools?) In the end people build a suit which suits them perfectly, because not everyone plays the same role in the same way and we should encourage people to do as such. That's... a lot of skills. I think the number of skills should be kept at a manageable level. EVE does it fairly well. Also, I don't think your proposed system encourages factional ties very much. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws Proficiency V. 1312	Posted - 2014.05.15 11:06:00 - [267] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: CCP Z wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: I strongly suggest that EVE: Legion adopt a progression system that mirrors EVE Online. I don't see why not. And I am strongly working doing the opposite for the reasons stated 20 times in this thread :) We are saying that that's a bad idea, you know, the people who has been attracted to your game? If it aint broke dont fix it... Well the system is broke (1/3/5 system for the skills with no bonuses. and forced skills with no bonuses that don't unlock anything). But it is a hell of a lot better than the new one (in not just my eyes, but most eyes). So, I say amen to that. The dust system is broken because it was never implemented correctly. It was copy pasted from eve and then butchered to be incoherent and inconsistent. Devs never listened when we gave feedback about dead skills but they still gave us a hardy amount of dead skill that now leads to the inevitable decay of what could have been a great game. Legion is not making any strides forward by scrapping a system that was botched. Taking dust as an example for the eve system is wrong.... I dont feel that there is enough kniwledge of the eve skill system in the devs mind. Ive played eve for 5 years and dustSince chromo and there where many thing that where simply inconsistent with new eden in general. This is a mistake... Change for the sake of change in my opinion. Plasma Cannon Advocate Dust 514 Survivor
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1309	Posted - 2014.05.15 11:14:00 - [268] - Quote Adding a dust version of ISIS, certificates, explanations... That's three layers of extra UI you've just added (which takes resources) and adds more stuff to read through before gaining the clarity you crave. There is an admission by some that the old system needs 're-done but better' but there is a point I think we can all agree, where there is so much to redo, its actually better to just start again. We've had the current system for over a year and numbers haven't grown. CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Negris Albedo Nuevo Atlas Corporation 61	Posted - 2014.05.15 11:16:00 - [269] - Quote The new progression system is, quite honestly, a disgrace. It insults the intelligence of the community. It dishonors the traditions of New Eden. It is being implemented in place of things that would actually help the game. It panders to the dumb who can't understand a game with depth. It restricts the freedom of the players. Why would you think that it's a good idea, CCP? Because the old system was bad? That's because you broke it!
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1586	Posted - 2014.05.15 11:20:00 - [270] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: There is an admission by some that the old system needs 're-done but better' but there is a point I think we can all agree, where there is so much to redo, its actually better to just start again. We've had the current system for over a year and numbers haven't grown. Which is why I believe we should switch to using an EVE-inspired progression system. DUST 514 only went halfway. A half-cooked steak isn't half as delicious, it's a recipe for food poisoning. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.

Haerr Legio DXIV 625	Posted - 2014.05.15 11:27:00 - [271] - Quote CCP Z: I think it would help a lot if you could post an image of how you currently have set up one role.
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1588	Posted - 2014.05.15 11:37:00 - [272] - Quote Maybe if we're lucky, Hilmar will refuse to greenlight the game with this progression system. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
TrueXer0z DUST University Ivy League 555	Posted - 2014.05.15 11:48:00 - [273] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: Adding a dust version of ISIS, certificates, explanations... That's three layers of extra UI you've just added (which takes resources) and adds more stuff to read through before gaining the clarity you crave. There is an admission by some that the old system needs 're-done but better' but there is a point I think we can all agree, where there is so much to redo, its actually better to just start again. We've had the current system for over a year and numbers haven't grown. I agree with you Dennie. I see that when it comes to the progression system we want it to be done properly. It is a huge factor in how the game will evolve and stand the test of time. Legion is a new game in its own right. Or at least it should be. However, what I am seeing is not an addition to the foundation created by dust, but a radical change that we are all too familiar with when dealing with the Dust 514 IP. Change can be good in the right context. Growing pains are natural in the life of an ever evolving universe such as New Eden. Can we as a community accept another radical change? Especially to a system that yes, may be flawed in some way, but not enough to do a complete overhaul. So much time and effort is being put into something that doesn't really seem to be an issue for a lot of the players coming forward. You and I of all people should know better then most. We both have spent well over a year interacting with new players. Countless hours talking and testing. Literally crunching numbers and putting in the time to get real feedback from new players and their concerns about things. Very rarely was the idea of the skill tree being overly complicated ever brought to our attention. I think a lot of what upsets people is that we are seeing the cycle starting all over again and Legion hasn't even been green lite. Devs have grandiose ideas and ask for feedback on a product we haven't even really seen outside of a power point slide. Like I said before. It isn't even going to matter much since CCP Z has a idea of how he wants things to work. It doesn't really matter if we agree with what he is doing. It is happening. Nothing will change that outcome. Where does this leave us? In the same exact situation that cause the community to start getting upset in the first place. Lots of Devs posting and it looks sweet and feels good to see the blue tags, but the communication is jaded and more of a distraction while CCP get their stuff in order. We don't want to be so toxic CCP. We want to help you make a game that people will enjoy for years to come. You have the best opportunity to collaborate with a community that is painfully loyal. Please, guys...seriously.....please...listen to what your community is telling you. We are trying to break down the walls of CCP to create something amazing. Allow that to happen. Director, Dust University @TrueXer0z *Kevall Longstride - CPM1*
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1309	Posted - 2014.05.15 11:51:00 - [274] - Quote Negris Albedo wrote: The new progression system is, quite honestly, a disgrace. It insults the intelligence of the community. It dishonors the traditions of New Eden. It is being implemented in place of things that would actually help the game. It panders to the dumb who can't understand a game with depth. It restricts the freedom of the players. Why would you think that it's a good idea, CCP? Because the old system was bad? That's because you broke it! Thanks for your contribution. CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 2708	Posted - 2014.05.15 11:55:00 - [275] - Quote Negris Albedo wrote: The new progression system is, quite honestly, a disgrace. It insults the intelligence of the community. It dishonors the traditions of New Eden. It is being implemented in place of things that would actually help the game. It panders to the dumb who can't understand a game with depth. It restricts the freedom of the players. Why would you think that it's a good idea, CCP? Because the old system was bad? That's because you broke it! This is the constructive feedback CCP Z needs to hear. #RedLightLegion This message was brought to you by the PC master race.
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 2708	Posted - 2014.05.15 11:57:00 - [276] - Quote Kevall, come on man! It does NOT take longer to add a GUI overlay to a currently existing system than to delete the old system and start from scratch with a completely new system and GUI. This message was brought to you by the PC master race.
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 2708	Posted - 2014.05.15 12:00:00 - [277] - Quote TrueXer0z wrote: We don't want to be so toxic CCP. We want to help you make a game that people will enjoy for years to come. You have the best opportunity to collaborate with a community that is painfully loyal. Please, guys...seriously.....please...listen to what your community is telling you. We are trying to break down the walls of CCP to create something amazing. Allow that to happen. They dont gives a rats a$$ im afraid. They only post here to make it seem like they care, so they can use the fact that they "communicate with the players" in marketing. This message was brought to you by the PC master race.
Bendtner92 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 2110	Posted - 2014.05.15 12:05:00 - [278] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: TrueXer0z wrote: We don't want to be so toxic CCP. We want to help you make a game that people will enjoy for years to come. You have the best opportunity to collaborate with a community that is painfully loyal. Please, guys...seriously.....please...listen to what your community is telling you. We are trying to break down the walls of CCP to create something amazing. Allow that to happen. They dont gives a rats a$$ im afraid. They only post here to make it seem like they care, so they can use the fact that they "communicate with the players" in marketing. Inb4 "Your feedback matters" Legion newsletter just like we got a DUST one a while back Winner of the EU Squad Cup & the closed beta Tester's Tournament. Go Go Power Rangers! R.I.P MAG.
Celus Ivara DUST University Ivy League 206	Posted - 2014.05.15 12:05:00 - [279] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Celus Ivara wrote: SNIP True but at the same time therd are a lot of positives to the DUST tree, mainly that you can play any role with any weapon pretty quickly, that is a good point about our system that Z wants to take away. If I want to be a sentinel with Plasma Cannon I can do that very easily, if I want to be a Scout with 2 SMG's I can do that. Err, yes and no. Your core point that a player can access most of the weapon tree pretty early in their career is true. But say, to be a Logi under the current system requires a Logi suit, which means skilling into the specialization. And there's a massive SP barrier to being able to access the Biotic tree. To make Kinetic Catalyzers tricky to access for assaults has made them tricky to access for Scouts for whom they're vital. Honestly though, that's not too big of an issue (it is an issue, just not quite a big one). I'd say the real issue though is this: Monkey MAC wrote: Because the skill tree encourages it, legions does not and I don't understand why Z wants it like that. The thing is I wouldn't quite say the present system "encourages" it, I'd say more that it "allows" it. From what we've seen of CCP Z's system, the entire idea is to encourage certain skill unlocks (and thus gear combinations) that make sense for common/popular playstyles. One of the biggest issues with the present system is that it is very confusing for new players (and even intermediate players), and part of that is that it's kind of everything is available all at once, with little explanation to what may be up your ally. Like say, a new player drops a ton of SP into the Assault Rifle, but also levels the hell out of a Caldari Assault suit, then they only later realize the suit bonuses only apply to rail weaponry. Or, all those new players who put tons of SP into a suit as the very first thing they do, without realizing they neither have the modules nor core-skills to make their hyper expensive suit useful. While hypothetically a lengthy tutorial would fix this, as someone who's given the Dust 101 tutorial several times to new players, I can tell you from firsthand experience that it would be a loooonng tutorial to provide the amount of knowledge needed to make an informed decision (consistently takes me about 3 hours to teach). Now, if we had most of the skills grouped into logical combinations, then any NPE with-or-with-out a tutorial would go a lot smoother. Your core point is still 100% true, but I think any utility in that openness only exists for the vets like us who know how to use it. The new players are lost in a sea of choices and trapped burning SP on bad decisions. :\ Now honestly, a (potentially) vastly improved NPE is the main benefit from this new system. And IMO, that alone would justify it. But there are some secondary benefits to it, which ironically benefit vets. Presently, if you want to be something inventive like a "sentinel with a Plasma Cannon" you can "do that very easily", but so can everyone else! There's little special about it. Now imagine if to get that Plasma Cannon you had to figure out that it'd be an interesting combination, and then level up through a side tree you might of (and all the other Sentinels did) ignore. When you deploy that fit onto the battlefield, you'll be unique! One of only a very small amount of people in New Eden to have figured out that skill path, and one of few who can field that cool combo! While this new Progression is mainly built for easing the experience for new players, it also allows vets to personalize, be clever, and have a use for late game SP (which we need). Yes, this new system introduces limits to what can be done quickly. But I suspect limiting what can be done quickly will result in more fun for everyone. :) Supporting Kevall Longstride, CEO of DUST University, for CPM1
Aqil Aegivan The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 331	Posted - 2014.05.15 12:19:00 - [280] - Quote Celus Ivara wrote: But there are some secondary benefits to it, which ironically benefit vets! :) Presently, if you want to be something inventive like a "Sentinel with a Plasma Cannon" you can "do that very easily", but so can everyone else! There's little special about it. Now imagine if to get that Plasma Cannon you had to figure out that it'd be an interesting combination, and then level up through a side tree you might of (and all the other Sentinels did) ignore. When you deploy that fit onto the battlefield, you'll be unique! One of only a very small amount of people in New Eden to have figured out that skill path, and one of few who can field that cool combo. :) While this new Progression is mainly built for easing the experience for new players, it also allows vets to personalize, be clever, and have a use for late game SP (which we need). Respecs.

Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1593	Posted - 2014.05.15 12:29:00 - [281] - Quote You would think CCP is intentionally alienating all of their current playerbase with all that's been going on. It's kind of funny, actually. I'd laugh if I wasn't so upset about it. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
Celus Ivara DUST University Ivy League 208	Posted - 2014.05.15 12:37:00 - [282] - Quote Haerr wrote: CCP Z: I think it would help a lot if you could post an image of how you currently have set up one role. This. There's a bit of a hindrance to how useful this conversation can be, in that quite a few key details are unknown to us right now. A map of even a small part of the skill-tree (okay, medium part, we have the 2 Fanfest slides; something expanded from that) would go a long way in aiding our feedback. :) Supporting Kevall Longstride, CEO of DUST University, for CPM1
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A Caps and Mercs 487	Posted - 2014.05.15 12:40:00 - [283] - Quote A humble request. Since Dust is dead but hasn-¦t started to rot yet, how about you go crazy and just experiment a little bit before it-¦s gone? I don-¦t know how many man-hours are needed for these suggestions, so let me know if it-¦s too much to play around. What i see as the main problems so far and a "patch" for them. Problem 1 - Unbalanced battles Patch: Battle with Bots (Easy - Medium - Hard) Explanation: If it takes too long for the art crew to make models of drones to fight, use some "Infected Automated Dropsuits" and let group of players fight AI. Those that want quick action get it, those who are tired of never winning can go for somethign "easier" and you get Replay Value and short waiting time (Only 4 people on the team? No problem, 4 bots against, or a few on your side). Diminished returns the easyer the battle is of course. Problem 2 - Interface Patch: ISIS Mode (Via website if it-¦s too much trouble to do it Ingame) Explanation: People need some sort of "thinking ahead" so they can plan properly, and also a brief explanation of what is good where. ISIS is an excellent example of how this can be done. Problem 3 - Skill Tree Patch: Respec + Change on the tree Explanation: The current tree is half-implemented for reasons already discussed, so why not implement it once and for all and see what happens? Your SP pool is removed from the skills so you can reapply them. Dropsuit Interface: (12 Basic - X Advanced) [Basic: 2 Bonuses % per lever on the suit based on it-¦s "intended role"] [Pre-req: None] Amarr - Light / Caldari - Light / Gallente- Light / Minmatar - Light [Pre-req: {Faction} Light Lvl 3] Amarr - Medium / Caldari - Medium / Gallente- Medium / Minmatar - Medium [Pre-req: {Faction} Medium Lvl3 Amarr - Heavy / Caldari - Heavy / Gallente- Heavy / Minmatar - Heavy [Advanced: Role Bonus [Fixed] + 2 Bonuses based on frame size level] [Pre-req: Frame Size Lvl 5] Assault Commando Logistics Sentinel [Insert more specializations here, Specialist (For hacking/stealth), Pilot (for vehicles and ships), Whatever] Vehicles: Basic [Pre-req: None] {Faction} - Light [Pre-req: {Faction} Light Lvl 3] {Faction} - Medium [Pre-req: {Faction} Medium Lvl3 {Faction} - Heavy Same with Aircraft (You get the spirit) Problem 4 - Roles on the battlefield Patch: Specific equip for specific actions Explanation: Why have an escort mission in PvE when i can have one in every pvp battle? "How" you may ask, and for this i answer "Just make a "Hacking Module" required for hacking instalations. (And a militia suit (role) equipped with a fitted one of course). If certain actions are acccomplished only by the right modules (NOT SUITS, MODULES [If i want a heavy with a nova knife and a hacking module that recieves no bonus from the suit, it-¦s MY problem). Hacking-Scanning-Repairing-Coordinates for an Orbital strike[Ghost unit from Starcraft pointing the location for X ammount of time, why not?]-etc... With specific modules for specific actions, it balances the teams from all the indiscriminated shooting (Still available in Ambush) and gives a more "Coordinated" approach for the battle, giving more fun to the same maps we play over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. This gives more tools for the players (I want a fast hacking team to gain ground, deploy uplinks and hack the ** out of the map so my secon wave of suits is more focused on heavy defensive, do i mix a balanced approach of roles and go with the flow, or do i.... [insert strategy here]) The starter fits should be the basal line of roles. You get to try everything from the start of the game (in miltia modules of course) and you can have a lot of "roles" as mentioned earlier simply with a different pre-made set of equipments. I don-¦t know how much of this can be done fast, nor how much of it is wanted by you guys, but the things i mentioned (at least in my ignorant head) are not hard to do because they are ALREADY THERE, they just need a little tweak. What frustrates me is that what we have NOW could be so much MORE** if only a few things changes, and when we finally have a migration plan to a plataform that can make things happen much much faster, you guys decide to change everything instead of making the tweaks that were requested years ago. If you could do this do the Dust 514 now, it would make a lot of people very very happy with the scarce resources that PS3 provides us with.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3334	Posted - 2014.05.15 12:49:00 - [284] - Quote I donGÇÖt think it is constructive to claim that DUST 514's poor new player retention rate was due to the skill system. While lack of education about the skill and fitting systems may have been one of many contributing factors, we all know that by far the most significant factor in DUST 514's lousy new player retention was the constant and relentless Proto Stopping they experienced on leaving the Academy. Thankfully Legion will have both PVE and the Meta Level match making to soften this transition, which should make a big difference for new player retention. This is not to say that we should not try to make the skill system more intuitive and remove frustrating, poorly implemented elements of it, but even with the system we have now, if new players were able to enjoy playing the game in there first few days in their starter suits they would eventually get the skill system and fittings figured out. The important part is not to overwhelm them with too much at one time. If they can go into PVE with a starter suit, without having to allocate any skill points, then they can work at figuring out the skills and fittings at their own pace. Frustration with the Skill tree comes when they come out of the academy and get stomped into the ground so that they panic and feel forced to figure out the skill and fitting system immediately so they can get those black suits so that they can defend themselves. That is when people get confused, make mistakes, and feel frustrated or overwhelmed. We need a new player experience which allows them to learn the game at their own pace. The New Player experience in DUST would be like dumping an EVE character into Low Sec on their first day. We need to give Legion players the High Sec experience, and give them the option to go into more dangerous territory when they feel ready. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Celus Ivara DUST University Ivy League 212	Posted - 2014.05.15 12:50:00 - [285] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: Celus Ivara wrote: First off I'd like to say that often times when people find themselves pushed towards opposing sides on an issue, they tend to reflexively take defensive stances and the conversation becomes more of a pitched battle instead of a seeking towards a shared truth. (Akin to the blind men and the elephant.) You responded to the ideas put forward, I'm very happy to see that. :) (Okay, that sounds super insulting, not meant to be.) My goal is-and-has-been to help us figure out what's going on with the issues surrounding the Progression system. Not trying to score "right" points. :) My post was a response to some things I was seeing people argue (either directly, or as a strong undercurrent to other arguments): - The current progression is fine and should be left alone. - The current progression has problems and should be fixed in the way EVE's progression has been "fixed" (certificates, ISIS, etc..) My post was meant to show that: 1: There are intrinsic problems with the current progression. 2: EVE's progression has a mosaic of problems unto itself, thus shouldn't be considered a panacea for Dust. 3: EVE is fundamentally different from Dust, thus a fix for one won't be a fix for the other. Obviously not everything is perfect with EVE's system. We are asking for it's layout basically (bonuses on pretty much every skill, trees that has all similar things in them, no forced skills that has nothing to give). Also, ISIS and certificates are tools to help guide someone along with their progress; a check list if you will. That will pretty much always help if the player uses it (and knows what he/she is looking at). Lastly, if they actually thought the newcomers how to actually use the systems, maybe they would understand more frequently rather than being thrown into the deep in, seeing this massive wall of **, and then saying " it, it's too much, I quit.". I get what you're saying, but I honestly think that that's what everyone here that disagrees with it thinks. Kevall answered this pretty well: Kevall Longstride wrote: Adding a dust version of ISIS, certificates, explanations... That's three layers of extra UI you've just added (which takes resources) and adds more stuff to read through before gaining the clarity you crave. There is an admission by some that the old system needs 're-done but better' but there is a point I think we can all agree, where there is so much to redo, its actually better to just start again. We've had the current system for over a year and numbers haven't grown. Godin, the proposed solution of fixing the nastiest of the problems with the present system, then adding an ISIS and/or Certificate system on top of it to explain good skill combinations to new players has merit. But it also carries some strong costs. Main one being that a new player will have to figure out ISIS/Certificates before they can use them to figure out skills. :\ I suspect "simply" (heavy quotes) designing the skill-tree in a way that fundamentally encourages good use of SP would make for a more user friendly system. :) Supporting Kevall Longstride, CEO of DUST University, for CPM1**
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3336	Posted - 2014.05.15 13:02:00 - [286] - Quote Regis Blackbird wrote: The current progression system in Dust 514 is not complex in itself (it is a simple skill tree with 5 level nodes), but it's the combination of finding gear in the market, then checking prerequisites, then figuring out how much your core skills affect the values you are seeing (and not seeing) on the fitting screen which is daunting. This is a good point. - If you want to fit something you donGÇÖt have the skills for, you should be able to find that item (displays red) in your fittings screen, click on it to find out why you canGÇÖt equip it, and be able to access and train the skills required to use that item from that point, rather than having to back out and go into another menu to find and train the skills. - Clicking on an item should also give you a list of complementary skills and how they benefit that item. Why not have access to skill training from the fitting screen? Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Varoth Drac The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 93	Posted - 2014.05.15 13:02:00 - [287] - Quote Celus Ivara wrote: -snip- Now honestly, a (potentially) vastly improved NPE is the main benefit from this new system. And IMO, that alone would justify it. But there are some secondary benefits to it, which ironically benefit vets! :) Presently, if you want to be something inventive like a "Sentinel with a Plasma Cannon" you can "do that very easily", but so can everyone else! There's little special about it. Now imagine if to get that Plasma Cannon you had to figure out that it'd be an interesting combination, and then level up through a side tree you might of (and all the other Sentinels did) ignore. When you deploy that fit onto the battlefield, you'll be unique! One of only a very small amount of people in New Eden to have figured out that skill path, and one of few who can field that cool combo. :) While this new Progression is mainly built for easing the experience for new players, it also allows vets to personalize, be clever, and have a use for late game SP (which we need). Yes, this new system introduces limits to what can be done quickly. But I suspect limiting what can be done quickly will result in more fun for everyone. :) This is pretty much exactly how I feel. I was trying to think of a good way to articulate it so I am quite relieved that you have come up with this excellent post for me. As for new player experience, whilst now I enjoy the complex and time consuming business of coming up with suit builds, when I started I did feel kind of crushed with indecision in how to fit my suit. I started trying to fit a scout suit as I had read they were good with shotguns but it was very difficult to know which directions to go. It is fun once you are invested in the game to have complex and varied options, but I honestly believe that when I started I would have preferred a few basic choices and a clear direction for progression. At that early stage I didn't want to be worrying about whether I should have profile dampeners, armour or code breakers, or whether I should have damage mods or shields, or the numerous other options. I just wanted to shotgun people in a suit that I knew wasn't gimped.
Celus Ivara DUST University Ivy League 213	Posted - 2014.05.15 13:05:00 - [288] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: I donGÇÖt think it is constructive to claim that DUST 514's poor new player retention rate was due to the skill system. While lack of education about the skill and fitting systems may have been one of many contributing factors, we all know that by far the most significant factor in DUST 514's lousy new player retention was the constant and relentless Proto Stopping they experienced on leaving the Academy. Thankfully Legion will have both PVE and the Meta Level match making to soften this transition, which should make a big difference for new player retention. This is not to say that we should not try to make the skill system more intuitive and remove frustrating, poorly implemented elements of it, but even with the system we have now, if new players were able to enjoy playing the game in there first few days in their starter suits they would eventually get the skill system and fittings figured out. The important part is not to overwhelm them with too much at one time. If they can go into PVE with a starter suit, without having to allocate any skill points, then they can work at figuring out the skills and fittings at their own pace. Frustration with the Skill tree comes when they come out of the academy and get stomped into the ground so that they panic and feel forced to figure out the skill and fitting system immediately so they can get those black suits so that they can defend themselves. That is when people get confused, make mistakes, and feel frustrated or overwhelmed. We need a new player experience which allows them to learn the game at their own pace. The New Player experience in DUST would be like dumping an EVE character into Low Sec on their first day. We need to give Legion players the High Sec experience, and give them the option to go into more dangerous territory when they feel ready. I agree with everything you said here, Fox. Problems with the skill-tree are but one of many things that were hurting the NPE. 24/7 proto-stomping definitely being the biggest one. If I implied otherwise, it wasn't my intent. :) Supporting Kevall Longstride, CEO of DUST University, for CPM1
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 2903	Posted - 2014.05.15 13:09:00 - [289] - Quote While I can go either way on organizing into roles, I have to personally admit that I have not liked the 5 node skill system in Dust. Now i've been playing EVE for about 2 months now and I find that I LOVE the 5 level system in EVE. It works, and it works really well. And I think its been mostly a failure in Dust at the same time. Some of it has to do with the lack of passive bonuses and tech II variants and such. The other half though has to do with the active vs passive nature of each game. In Dust, level 5 = level 1-4 in terms of SP cost... in EVE level 5 = 4x level 1-4 in SP cost, yet I still find myself wanting level 5 abilities depending on what they give me and not minding their substantial SP cost. In EVE I don't find level 5 abilities all that punishing... even looking at 21d for Cloaking 5 doesn't bother me (yes I know there are skills with higher multipliers than cloaking but bear with me). In Dust... getting level 5 in anything x5 or higher was a terrible/boring experience, and hardly even felt worth it to me. Trying to get a second proto suit without an SP event? omg ugh... not fun at all. I guess when it came down to it, I am fine waiting for a level 5 skill in EVE but I hate grinding for level 5 in Dust. I just don't feel like the 1-5 system is all that engaging in an active SP system. I would rather have 15 nodes than 5 levels. Its more incremental and makes the SP grind feel better when you can unlock something every 4-5 days instead of saving for 2-3 months straight. I can understand the concerns about locking weapons and abilities behind substantial SP walls... but if the roots of each role tree aren't expensive and we can still move directly towards the items and modules that we want without too much SP expenditure, I can deal with that if it does end up meaning a tree that is easier to understand for brand new players. I don't believe an ISIS system is necessarily the answer though. ISIS in eve is an graphical depiction of a linearized spaceship command tree. It tells me nothing about modules, turrets, drones, etc. I've still had to learn about all of that outside of the game, something that I, personally, am willing to do... but that is not necessarily for everyone. I do believe that is what they are trying to do with this system.
Kigurosaka Laaksonen DUST University Ivy League 982	Posted - 2014.05.15 13:39:00 - [290] - Quote This is going to be a long one. Two posts should do me. DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/ EVE Buddy Invite - Too damn long. Ask me for it.

Kigurosaka Laaksonen DUST University Ivy League 982	Posted - 2014.05.15 13:40:00 - [291] - Quote rsrvd DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/ EVE Buddy Invite - Too damn long. Ask me for it.
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1311	Posted - 2014.05.15 13:41:00 - [292] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: Kevall, come on man! It does NOT take longer to add a GUI overlay to a currently existing system than to delete the old system and start from scratch with a completely new system and GUI. Well, as I asked JC and several other non CCP Dev's present at Fanfest as players that question and they told me 9 time out of 10 its easier to start again, I'll defer to their experience. CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Jadek Menaheim Ancient Textiles. 3001	Posted - 2014.05.15 13:57:00 - [293] - Quote After brainstorming with several players in a sub-forum I would like to present our proposal for your consideration regarding a respect system. CCP Z wrote: We will offer a Respec Option (which does not exist in DUST 514). More information will come down the line as the projectGÇÖs development progresses. I share the sentiments of the community that a respec option should be handled carefully and here is my proposal to both potentially reduce issues of flavor of the month band-waggoning and making skill development planning critical. The idea incorporates a concept similar to Major Lee High's Skillback booster and mirrors a secondary system already in place, the log-in bonus. Flagging Skills for 'Skillback' Players are offered the option to skillback character traits after unlocking their first node (of five) by accruing active and passive play time on the Time Investment Respec Meter (T.I.R. Meter, see below). Players are allowed to skill back as many traits as they wish in a single go, however players are warned multiple times that this procedure is dangerous because they must actively (not passively) earn those skill points (all allocated for skillback) back within the period of a single week (168 hours). It is possible to ruin a developed character this way so the results of the skillback procedure are not applied until the player authorizes it at the end of the seven days. This places the impetus on the player to preform well during that week to take most advantage of their skillback and the nodes which they used up. Even if a player chooses not to apply their skillback results nodes from the Time Investment Respec Meter are skill used. Additional, skills flagged for skill can still be used up until the point at which a player choose to apply skillback results. Time Investment Respec Meter As you actively play matches and participate in loot recovery missions you gradually accrue time to your T.I.R Meter. After 75 hours of active and passive play you reach a node point on your five level meter that awards the player a single day active booster and the option for a skillback respec. The player may simply take the respec or chose to continue building the meter for more and better booster farther down the line of active and passive play time (see A1). However, if a player chooses to respec at any time down this meter progression path, the path is reset back to zero time and the player must re-accrue time to unlock rewards once again. Please see Exhibit A2 for more details on this point. Exhibit A1: [Node 1] 75 Hours: Give a 1 day Active Booster. [Node 2] 150 Hours: Give a 3 day Passive Booster [Node 3] 300 Hours: Give a 3 day Active Booster. [Node 4] 900 hours: Give a 1 day Omega Booster. [Node 5] Every 700 hours after that: 3 day Passive Omega + 1 Day Omega Booster Exhibit A2: For example, you've unlocked 4 node levels by accruing active and passive time. Activating a skillback here will use all three node levels. Now the level 4 node applies a +1.6x bonus to the original 1x now giving you 2.6x the active sp back from matches which means you are using the skillback more efficiently to earn allocated points back. Active SP bonus modifiers also apply from CCPs 5x active sp player events. [O] >>>> [O] >>> [O] >>> [_] >>> [_] [+.4x] > [+.8x] > [+1.6x] > [+3.2x] > [+6.4x] It is important to note that if you use nodes it will enable a stasis period before time is allocated again to the T.I.R Meter from passive and active play. Stasis time is cumulative to the amount of nodes used in combination with skillback. For example, if you've built up time and unlocked four nodes, a +3.2x earning bonus, you would place the T.I.R meter in a combined stasis period of 11 days, 2 hours as four nodes were absorbed in activation. [_] >>>>> [_] >>>>> [_] >>>>> [_] >>>> [_] [2hrs] > [24hrs] > [3days] > [7days] > [2weeks] - - - - - - TL;DR: Respecs should not be instant. This proposal introduces a risk wager system that requires active player participation in a procedure called skillback. A level 5 node based sub-mechanic called the Time Investment Respec Meter allows players use their skillbacks more efficiently to recoup most if not all SP allocated for skillback wager. Skillbacks can be activated and canceled at any time without loss of SP to the player during the seven day period. This places the impetus on the player to preform well during that week to take most advantage of their skillback and the nodes which they used up. Gÿ+/ Join MySpaceTom's army /Gûî /\
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2853	Posted - 2014.05.15 14:02:00 - [294] - Quote [quote=Celus Ivara] I still believe that the skill tree should be re-looked at, I just don't think that Z's is the best way of doing it. Quote: But there are some secondary benefits to it, which ironically benefit vets! :) Presently, if you want to be something inventive like a "Sentinel with a Plasma Cannon" you can "do that very easily", but so can everyone else! There's little special about it. To the contrary though, there is something incredibly special about it, that's why all the registries and chat channels for specific fits arose. There was/is a chat channel specifically for people who run plasma cannons on heavy suits. They discuss and exchange fits, it's all part of the fun. Being the ONLY guy who has that fit under Z's progression makes you feel more like an outsider (your mixing skill trees). Quote: But say, to be a Logi under the current system requires a Logi suit, which means skilling into the specialization. And there's a massive SP barrier to being able to access the Biotic tree. To make Kinetic Catalyzers tricky to access for Assaults has made them tricky to access for Scouts for whom they're vital. There I agree with you completely there are too many steps between a medium suit and logistics suit, which if you look at one of my previous posts is why I think factional suits should be later down the tree, one of the good points about Z's progression tree. In the end there are 2 ways you can do skill trees 1) This is the closest to Z's idea, you get the maximum amount of choice at the beginning. You are given hundreds of potential start points. Once you choose your path you just follow it to the end. Only then do you really bother with other trees. 2) You give the user increasingly complex choices, starting with a simple choice. Light, Medium or Heavy? What KIND of weapon do you want? Then as you progress you get more choices, Sentinel or Commando? Assault Rifles or Tactical Rifles? You slowly introduce people to the play styles and then let them formulate there own way of doing it. I would like to refer you to Star Trek Online a game which at the very least achieves method 2 quite well. In the beginning you only have type of ship, which is capable of doing all 3 roles available in the game rather well. As you move to the next tier, you get a choice of Cruiser, Escort of Science Vessels, it's here you make your first choice, which style do you prefer? I personally went with cruisers, which are all about the broad side, you get a ridiculous number of pahser banks on target at a time and a lot f health, but your possible hull damage is minimal. On the next tier you then get selection again, (if you feel like you can move over 2 the other 2 classes), Assault Crusier or Exploration Cruiser, once again the Exploration cruiser focuses on higher tank and broadsiding, while the Assault Cruiser favours broadsiding the shields and then torpeoding the now exposed flank. Done like this your understanding of the role progresses with the craft you never feel like your thrown in the deep end and at the same time, you aren't fixed to one style all the way through. Looks like its back to FPS Military Shooter 56 Monkey Mac - Just another pile of discarded ashes on the battlefield!
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2853	Posted - 2014.05.15 14:10:00 - [295] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: Just finished drafting up a potential skill tree for dropsuits. It's very streamlined and simple. A bit ugly, though. I'm not much of a concept artist, I'm afraid. T1 Dropsuits require Racial Dropsuit Command I. T2 (Specialized) Dropsuits require Racial Dropsuit Command V and Specialized Dropsuits I. I don't see how this could even be remotely a problem to understand, given proper UI. Goodness me no, that's almost the other extreme of Z's Idea, try this one (sorry about format) -----------------------------/\---------------> Amarr Assault Dropsuit Operation (...) -----------------------------/\---------------> Caldari Assault Dropsuit Operation (...) ------------Assault Dropsuit Operation ----> Gallante Assault Dropsuit Operation (...) --------------/\---- -------\/--------------> Minmatar Assault Dropsuit Operation (...) Medium Dropsuit Operation --------------\/---- -------/\----------------> Amarr Logistics Dropsuit Operation (...) ------------Logistics Dropsuit Operation----> Caldari Logistics Dropsuot Operation (...) -----------------------------\/----------------> Minmatar Logistics Dropsuit Operation (...) -----------------------------\/----------------> Gallante Logistics Dropsuit Operation (...) You have to break it down a little more, so you start with suit size, the specalization, then faction, then officer gear. Now what you do is then give weapons and modules/equipment a similar based skill tree, interseed all of them with single node skill bonuses (you can even have skill bonuses you have to choose between - Do I want +100% Max Ammo Capacity for explosive weapons or do I want +30% Dropsuit Repair rate on Repair Tools?) In the end people build a suit which suits them perfectly, because not everyone plays the same role in the same way and we should encourage people to do as such. That's... a lot of skills. I think the number of skills should be kept at a manageable level. EVE does it fairly well. Also, I don't think your proposed system encourages factional ties very much. It's not meant to, you should be familiar with suits archetype before you move on to the faction. My idea has the same number of skills as the CURRENT system, the only different is that you choose Assault or Logistics before you choose the faction. It reduces the number of redundant/duplicate skills and makes the initial choices as easy possible without limiting the depth of choice. By comparison you suggested skill tree is TOO open (in exact opposite to Z's like I said) there is too much choice for at a high level for it to be reasonable for a new player to make a choice. Looks like its back to FPS Military Shooter 56 Monkey Mac - Just another pile of discarded ashes on the battlefield!
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A Caps and Mercs 487	Posted - 2014.05.15 14:11:00 - [296] - Quote All "roles" can be performed by basic Light-Medium-Heavy suits with a different pre-made milita module loadout. If different actions are performed excusively by different modules, you can have plenty of "roles" performing them, at the beggining, with no pre-req, jsut doing the above.
Tallen Ellecon 1934	Posted - 2014.05.15 15:43:00 - [297] - Quote Celus Ivara wrote: Long thought out counterpoint Though I don't agree 100% it's good to see the other side of the argument.
Eddie Rio The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 123	Posted - 2014.05.15 16:06:00 - [298] - Quote the ins and outs of it all are very confusing and because the details currently are shady I find it hard to comment in depth over specifics that aren't realised yet. in saying that I can see allot of fear from our shaken up community over mercs not wanting legion development to 'reinvent the wheel', my view is that this is the best time restructure the whole damn progression system and make it more accessible for new players as well as keeping the interests of the old and hardy dust/eve player who likes to spreadsheet... my main issue to trying to bring friends and others to game is telling people that you currently need months and months of training to enjoy the game and feel equal to other in dust. I hope a new progression system will make this easier, being able to make your gun 10% more powerful from 2 months of training in that weapon is one example that I would like to see eradicated from the game. if i can use a gun, i can use a gun just as well as someone who has just specced into it, the skill should come from how well you can use it... another issue is mainly the risk you take speccing into something, you have no idea how it operates or feels or even if you like it, you can easily spec into a basic version, but you will never know its true potential... in other games, they have a firing range or a server you can jump in and unlock all the things to try em out.. unlike eve, even in the test server you are still bound by your skills, but maybe it would be nice to try before you buy so to speak,,, some form of game mode, which is a test range or a game type with no meaning or results would be great... I cant really comment on anything else until maybe a dev blog is out really outlining the plans of the progression system, i feel we need something we can all refer to when giving an opinion on this subject.. now is the time for change, change the whole progression system as this was one of the main factors from stopping new players to the game. I look forward to future posts and discussion about this, now the cloak has been unveiled about legion I hope we can get allot more communication of the development process, hiding ideas and information at this point is not needed, things in the gaming world have changed allot and the players have allot more interaction with devs and this is a good thing (bar the trolls).. ive said it before and i will say this again: a weekly or bi weekly dev blog outlining the thing being worked on and ideas being discussed will keep the whole community happy, toss in a cuple of images of game play or features. set up some player drive polls and questionnaires to boot... Im excited...
Tallen Ellecon 1935	Posted - 2014.05.15 16:12:00 - [299] - Quote I'm for redoing the skill tree. I'm for a more informative UI (ISIS) I'm against locking people into roles..... this is my only concern.
Ace Starburst Tom Cruise Thetan Army 105	Posted - 2014.05.15 16:25:00 - [300] - Quote I'll hold off on specific criticism of the system until I see the completed skill tree. Some of the interactions are still a bit vague from my understanding. All I really want with a progression system is simplicity, depth, balance, strategic variability, and possible expandability into industrial and economic pathways. Give me that and I'll be a loyal customer. As in not needlessly complicated, complexity is good as far as I'm concerned.

Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8578	Posted - 2014.05.15 16:45:00 - [301] - Quote Z, as soon as you are ready, don't be afraid to show us the complete skill tree you have planned. That will go a long way in clearing any confusion among us. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Iskandar Zul Karnain Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 2640	Posted - 2014.05.15 17:00:00 - [302] - Quote I will defer to posts in this thread by Kigurosaka Laaksonen for how I see the current skill system and in what direction we should be headed. I would like to stress that transparency is critical. I've been here since Mordu's Private Trials and watched many slow motion train wrecks that were accurately predicted and entirely preventable had we of had better communication between the devs and the community. If I can reduce the failures of Dust 514 to a single word, it is arrogance. Please take the extra time to clearly present your plans. It is in your best interest. The only things any dev needs to understand about Dust and Legion is that this is not another FPS, and that if you try to make it one it will surely be to the detriment of the entire community. CCP has created a very loyal and invested community on the dream of a complex thinking man's shooter where choices matter and actions have consequence. We are all here for that single reason.
byte modal 82	Posted - 2014.05.15 17:08:00 - [303] - Quote mmmk. I'm at work now. Forum chaos, GO!!!!! <3 Irony: Post #35
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 2910	Posted - 2014.05.15 17:09:00 - [304] - Quote To echo the two posts on the last page. (299 & 300). Don't be afraid to just put it out there and see what comes of it. Nothing is ever perfect the first time around, you should use the CPM for rapid iteration but don't be afraid to get some community feedback here as well. It would go a long way to making this a better game and soothe some of our concerns.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3346	Posted - 2014.05.15 17:25:00 - [305] - Quote Questions for CCP Z: 1) Will new players be able to see a noticeable improvement in their abilities as they apply their skill points early in their career? 2) Will new players that specialize in one role be able to develop enough in a month or two to be able to compete with veteran players? I donGÇÖt mean even playing field, but rather narrowing the gap in the area they specialise in enough to give them a fighting chance. 3) Will there be opportunities for veteran players to go back when they have more skill points and be able to get additional small bonuses in order to gain slight advantages? 4) Are you simply collapsing 5 level skills into single nodes? Are you taking a lot of small rewarding steps and replacing them with a few huge daunting steps? Am I going to have to grind for two weeks to get 25% PG from the Engineering node when I only need 5% more PG to make my fit work? 5) Why do you feel the EVE Skill system is inappropriate for a Free to Play FPS? You have stated this many times, but have not actually explained why you believe that to be the case. What aspects of the EVE system donGÇÖt work in an FPS and why? Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
byte modal 82	Posted - 2014.05.15 17:26:00 - [306] - Quote TrueXer0z wrote: -snip'ish- ... Change can be good in the right context. Growing pains are natural in the life of an ever evolving universe such as New Eden. Can we as a community accept another radical change? Especially to a system that yes, may be flawed in some way, but not enough to do a complete overhaul. So much time and effort is being put into something that doesn't really seem to be an issue for a lot of the players coming forward. You and I of all people should know better then most. We both have spent well over a year interacting with new players. Countless hours talking and testing. Literally crunching numbers and putting in the time to get real feedback from new players and their concerns about things. Very rarely was the idea of the skill tree being overly complicated ever brought to our attention. I think a lot of what upsets people is that we are seeing the cycle starting all over again and Legion hasn't even been green lite. Devs have grandiose ideas and ask for feedback on a product we haven't even really seen outside of a power point slide. Like I said before. It isn't even going to matter much since CCP Z has a idea of how he wants things to work. It doesn't really matter if we agree with what he is doing. It is happening. Nothing will change that outcome. Where does this leave us? In the same exact situation that cause the community to start getting upset in the first place. Lots of Devs posting and it looks sweet and feels good to see the blue tags, but the communication is jaded and more of a distraction while CCP get their stuff in order. We don't want to be so toxic CCP. We want to help you make a game that people will enjoy for years to come. You have the best opportunity to collaborate with a community that is painfully loyal. Please, guys...seriously.....please...listen to what your community is telling you. We are trying to break down the walls of CCP to create something amazing. Allow that to happen. Emphasis mine. Hey. I like you. I like DustUni. Generally, I enjoy most all posts from those that carry your tag. Whether I agree or not, I enjoy reading the posts and following the logic used to get to whatever point you guys try to make. I know it's neither here nor there, but wanted to throw that out. Keep it up, for whatever that's worth. It may be more that I just don't want to get to work =\ Either way, thumbs up! lol. ok.... back to it. - me. Irony: Post #35
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 507	Posted - 2014.05.15 17:32:00 - [307] - Quote Regarding the monetization of the progression system: If you need more $$$, try asking those of us who have spent hundreds of dollars on boosters and AUR gear why we haven't spent more. Seriously. I'll point you to the PLEX trade, the Monicle Stigmata of the pay-to-play patrons, and the ISK based solution. With an open market, I would be willing to sell some Omega-Boosters for isk! This solves a fundamental disparity between the rich and poor that shouldn't exist in a more perfect New Eden. I feel like an ass when it says 'Blisterrain' killed X and the target info says MLT. There will be bullets. ACR+SMG [CEO of Terror]*
Baltazar Pontain Phantom Universe Task Force Die Fremdenlegion 131	Posted - 2014.05.15 17:35:00 - [308] - Quote I am not sure, but does this thread cover also skill point gaining? (I hope I did not miss some information and do not double post) If yes some remarks and questions from my side. 1.) How do we gain skillpoints? will there be passive and active? 2.) Is some feature planned to lose skill points? (like tech3 ships in eve) 3.) Are some boosters planned? 4.) If yes can I loose them (like implants in Eve Online)? 5.) Do you plan something like a daily login bonus? Thx in advance.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8581	Posted - 2014.05.15 17:45:00 - [309] - Quote Iskandar Zul Karnain wrote: I will defer to posts in this thread by Kigurosaka Laaksonen for how I see the current skill system and in what direction we should be headed. I would like to stress that transparency is critical. I've been here since Mordu's Private Trials and watched many slow motion train wrecks that were accurately predicted and entirely preventable had we of had better communication between the devs and the community. If I can reduce the failures of Dust 514 to a single word, it is arrogance. Please take the extra time to clearly present your plans. It is in your best interest. The only things any dev needs to understand about Dust and Legion is that this is not another FPS, and that if you try to make it one it will surely be to the detriment of the entire community. CCP has created a very loyal and invested community on the dream of a complex thinking man's shooter where choices matter and actions have consequence. We are all here for that single reason. This. For a long time now I grew up with the understanding that there are some things that game developers should keep secret due to the very nature of how people react as a whole in terms of gossip and rumor mills spiraling out of control. But in the case of Dust and Legion, that traditional understanding will NOT work. Full transparency is very important at this stage of development. If you look at Eve Online, CCP has been most transparent on almost every little detail. Just look at their dev blogs covering everything from industry overhauls to drone skills and from pricing to the UI. The amount of details given in those dev blogs are astounding and has kept any confusion in the Eve Online community to an absolute minimum with only minor disagreements here and there. Now contrast that with Dust. Dust has had the least amount of transparency and have often left behind more questions than answers which has left everyone here feeling that the Devs just aren't paying attention. And then look what happened to Dust. It's only half finished and left behind now on an outdated console that no one will care about in 12 months time. Don't ever repeat that mistake. CCP, you can avoid that mistake by finally giving us all the details we asked for. Again, don't be afraid to give us all of the graphs and stuff like that covering the new progression system you are proposing. Doing so might even remove the confusion and ultimately improve relations with the community. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Hammerhead LandSharkX Liberum Sapiens Xenodochi 21	Posted - 2014.05.15 17:47:00 - [310] - Quote Kigurosaka responded largely how I would have wanted to-so thanks for saving me some time. And to highlight some of the more general sentiments: Kigurosaka Laaksonen wrote: No one claimed EVEGÇÖs skill tree was perfect and perfect is the wrong word to use in this instance. Implying itGÇÖs GÇÿdivinely perfectGÇÖ is certainly out of place. It is, however, very functional. Tweaks like taking out Learning skills were done after a few yearGÇÖs experience showed they werenGÇÖt needed. The skills were removed and attributes were increased so there was almost no net change in SP/hr. The ends (total SP/hr) were justified, the means (Learning skills vs. higher base attributes and remaps) needs work. For Drone skills, thatGÇÖs an entirely subjective tweak being done to bring drones in line with other weapons. Drones are broken for a few reason, the UI and AI being a few, but the skill tree is not one of them. Lastly, there is another argument people are making: "Dust/Legion should be EVE, but on the planets. And thus we should be mimicking EVE's gameplay as much as possible." This is obviously related to the above statement, but comes at it from the angle of gameplay as opposed to the skill-tree. As such, I'll respond to it from a different angle. Allow me to be straightforward: EVE is an amazing sandbox, with battles where thousands of players led by gods tear away at each other, filled with spying, politics and altruism, where your cunning and ambition shape your future as much as any character stats you may have. EVE is a glorious story-engine with one teeny-tiny problem: It is not fun to play. Do you want Planetary Conquest 2.0 to be a 5 hour POS grind? Do you want PvE to be so simplistic many people bot it with trivial programs? Do you want to have to run two accounts at once to have access to basic reconnaissance? Do you want Dust to also become the "game you play while you're doing something else"? Should Dust be "Spreadsheets on Planets"? This is ridiculous. EVE is fun to play. ThatGÇÖs the only reason I play it. Also, this is yet another misrepresentation of the argument. I never said DUST (Legion?) should be EVE but on planets. I said DUST should mirror EVE as much as is suitable in an FPS environment. If you think that sounds great then you know what? That's fine! Only you know what you find fun. No one can tell you otherwise. :) But here's the thing, that game already exists, it's called EVE Online. EVE is very, very, very good at being EVE. But if you want a sandbox/MMO/FPS, well we're going to have build that. And since no other game has done that, we'll have to invent. Which means iteration. There are sandbox MMOFPSs. One example that comes to mind is Firefall. ItGÇÖs not so good. Those guys are really going it on their own. ItGÇÖs theyGÇÖre first and only IP. They donGÇÖt have amazing opportunities and experiences gained from an incredibly successful 10yr old IP. We donGÇÖt have to GÇÿinventGÇÖ a tier system that is balanced for new and old players. EVE has already invented it. We donGÇÖt have to GÇÿinventGÇÖ an economy where the goods are mainly player manufactured. EVE has already invented it. Of course thereGÇÖs room to improve, such as PvE. But EVEGÇÖs setting and DUSTGÇÖs (LegionGÇÖs?) setting will lend themselves to massively different PvE. No one is saying copy and paste EVE to DUST. But what if instead of public contracts, we had to accept PvE, PvP, or mixed PvE / PvP missions (we could even still call them contracts) from agents in a station? Which means occasionally tearing down the old and replacing it with the new. Our present skill system works. But by no means does it work well. Let's find something that does. :) EVE built on a solid foundation. It was never torn down and rebuilt fresh. The skill system and ship class system is largely the same. Our present skill system DOES NOT WORK. Our present game DOES NOT WORK WELL. Being more like EVE would solve that. thank you kigurosaka! Celus, Kevall and a few others seem to be ignoring some of CCP Z's replies where he stated his skill tree and the current aren't even that different...so what are the differences? forced progression and some ui tweaks? Not to metion 'more difficult' progression which i can only currently interpret as more time to train down a newly forced focus on predefined roles before i can get back to my basic custom fits. This sounds like a better system to you guys? The new progression presentation didnt look like a 'new ui' covering up the same old skill tree but removing your option to deviate from roles? Why would a cert/ISIS system have to only be ui map and not (optionally) automatically train things for people the same way a skill que does? Why are you guys refusing to improve upon a system with more freedom and customization in favor of starting over and adding restrictions that will likely make it harder to iterate on without enforcing more restrictions? do i want legion to 'play' like eve-**** no. i want eve's systems to provide the foundation for an fps . I don't expect to be trotting around on a planet-point my gun at someone...wait 10 seconds to get a lock and start playing an automated orbital dance with intervals of automatic gun fire thereafter... i want my fittings and modules and skill training to build a unique loadout that plays the way i want it to play against an abundance of adversarial variance where all of that is rooted in a player driven market in a competitive sandbox environment with economic/political/fun consequences. Thats the 'eve' i want in legion. I find comments like "legion should not look to EVE" in opposition to pursuing that vision . "There's a game like that-it's called eve" BS, eve aint an fps. that's like me saying "there's a game like ccp z's it's called firefall/planetside/MAG/battlefield" that would be BS too.

Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4156	Posted - 2014.05.15 17:58:00 - [311] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: Adding a dust version of ISIS, certificates, explanations... That's three layers of extra UI you've just added (which takes resources) and adds more stuff to read through before gaining the clarity you crave. There is an admission by some that the old system needs 're-done but better' but there is a point I think we can all agree, where there is so much to redo, its actually better to just start again. We've had the current system for over a year and numbers haven't grown. That's because the core game is horrible. HORRIBLE. Rouge can get up on stage and say he has a great product in Dust 514 all he likes, but we all know that's because he values his job. Were he to get up there and say something akin to "This thing is an abomination, why the hell do any of you even play it?" well.... he might gain some popularity actually, but not with Hilmar.
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1313	Posted - 2014.05.15 18:25:00 - [312] - Quote You've not met Hilmar have you? CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Karl Koekwaus 227	Posted - 2014.05.15 18:38:00 - [313] - Quote CCP Z wrote: This will remain the case in Legion, for different reasons: You will have different contracts offered to you depending on your Dropsuit Meta Level. Basically, if you have 3 fittings with a 120, 200 and 350 Metalevel, you will have access to 3 different brackets where people will have the same Metalevel range as you. So, no Dropsuit will be obsolete. You will have access to non-match made battles, so basically you can pick any Dropsuit you want. So are we back to Legion being a Lobby shooter? In a proper sandbox in which you scan for battles using the overview maps like we've seen in the Intro Movie, I don't think the whole separation in Meta levels is needed. If battles are more massive and constant changing (Planetside 2), difference in Gear becomes less obvious and player, leadership and tactical skills becomes more obvious. CCP Z wrote: Again, the nature of Legion is to work against Gear obsolescence, so your old gear will still have an interest for you after unlocking the GÇ£nextGÇ¥ Dropsuit in your tree. You donGÇÖt have to move in a linear way (ie, by going directly to the next Dropsuit). We will offer you many side choices that will make you more efficient or have more fitting choices with your current Dropsuit. I think it's wise to give suits, weapons and modules less power and move more power in the Skills. This way you can have people 'taste' a playstyle without spending a lot of stuff, but to be really effective you need to invest. Support skills which are useful for all suits/mods or weapons are nice in this aswell, since you unlock them once and they benefit everything, even after deciding that your chosen playstyle was not really the way you want to play the game. (Accuracy Skills, Reload speed skills, Shield recharge rate skills etc) CCP Z wrote: We will offer a Respec Option (which does not exist in DUST 514). More information will come down the line as the projectGÇÖs development progresses. That is a really bad Idea, games in the EVE universe should require consequence. see my above text for a way to deal with this in a much more elegant way. What's next? Renames for money? CCP Z wrote: If you look at the tree that I showed during the presentation, basic weapons for all classes will be available early in the progression so you will be able to try them fairly easily (or quickly if you prefer). But yes, we are making the Progression more difficult. Right now, within a couple of weeks of play, you can basically create your ultimate Fitting and never do anything else. Like said above, I don't think a more difficult progression system is needed atm. it seems CCP already thinks progression in Dust is too difficult, it's why we're having this discussion. If you like the way you play the game a few weeks in and want to focus on that asap, why is it a bad thing? I already know what I'm going to skill in atm. Why make it harder for people who know what they want, to do it? CCP Z wrote: I donGÇÖt necessarily agree with the EVE example, it remains a really difficult progression system to understand. Legion is not and will not be EVE, even if both games share the same universe. We have many reasons justifying that choice: we are not the same business model (subscription vs free to play), we are not talking to the same target audience (hardcore MMO players vs Online FPS Players). That isnGÇÖt to say that their progression system isnGÇÖt great and applicable to EVE GÇô only that it does not necessarily fit the game we want Project Legion to become. I think that the new system will allow both: accessibility for new users to understand, while keeping the high level complexity of mix-matching modules, weapons and Dropsuits. The difference between Dust and EVE, is WHEN you use the skillpoints. In dust you play for a bit and then wonder what to do with the points , while in EVE you think about what you're doing and then apply skill training to get to that point. You know what skills you have to put points in and what these skills do, because you checked it before you started training them. Like I said above, I think a system in which you have a lot more global or skills that affect a weapon type (Rifles/Pistols etc) are a better way to let people find out what they like without making their previously used skillpoints useless. Trying new stuff should be painless, getting the best of the best should take a long while. I'm sorry to say it, but it reads like gear progression in WOW, 3 sets per class for different purposes, 1x Arena, 1x BG's, 1x Raids. A start would be to move all Weapon and Module skills out of the Suit progression and tie suit progression to support skill levels. So you can't have Tech 3 suits, with bad support skills. It also let's people faf about a lot more than predefined skillpaths. Making skills more important than the base stats for modules and suits goes a long way in this too, and lets people switch around more easily, making the awful Respec not necessary. Numbers don't mean anything. Case in point; Rebecca Black. Micheal Jackson died for my sins
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8584	Posted - 2014.05.15 19:20:00 - [314] - Quote Karl Koekwaus wrote: CCP Z wrote: This will remain the case in Legion, for different reasons: You will have different contracts offered to you depending on your Dropsuit Meta Level. Basically, if you have 3 fittings with a 120, 200 and 350 Metalevel, you will have access to 3 different brackets where people will have the same Metalevel range as you. So, no Dropsuit will be obsolete. You will have access to non-match made battles, so basically you can pick any Dropsuit you want. So are we back to Legion being a Lobby shooter? Not really. The Fanfest 2014 keynote shows that CCP plans to have both lobby shooting AND sandbox gameplay. Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8h9pJyrPOZE As you can see, they will be offered as options. What CCP Z mentioned was just using the meta level to address the matchmaking for the lobby part of the game. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4159	Posted - 2014.05.15 19:30:00 - [315] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: You've not met Hilmar have you? Not in person, no. Though if I was in charge of a company I wouldn't want my producer crapping on its products.
ANON Cerberus Tiny Toons 679	Posted - 2014.05.15 19:33:00 - [316] - Quote Personally - I could not give a damn on the specifics of how progression works as long as... A. Its more clear for new guys to understand - but it does not restrict me as a player more familiar with the game. B. I still always want to grind those skillpoints to unlock better and better stuff. C. I do agree in DUST it has been very easy to unlock things. In EVE it does take a lot longer to have access to all of this good stuff. So I dont mind you guys making things a little more difficult. D. PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD - make every skill point / every skill level up give us some tangible benefit. In dust right now we have many skill levels that either do [1] Nothing at all or [2] just unlock accesses to another level to unlock until you finally get something. Please make every 'level up' or every batch of skillpoints spent give a tangible benefit.
ResistanceGTA D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1172	Posted - 2014.05.15 19:39:00 - [317] - Quote ANON Cerberus wrote: Personally - I could not give a damn on the specifics of how progression works as long as... A. Its more clear for new guys to understand - but it does not restrict me as a player more familiar with the game. B. I still always want to grind those skillpoints to unlock better and better stuff. C. I do agree in DUST it has been very easy to unlock things. In EVE it does take a lot longer to have access to all of this good stuff. So I dont mind you guys making things a little more difficult. D. PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD - make every skill point / every skill level up give us some tangible benefit. In dust right now we have many skill levels that either do [1] Nothing at all or [2] just unlock accesses to another level to unlock until you finally get something. Please make every 'level up' or every batch of skillpoints spent give a tangible benefit. To be fair, Dust players didn't like worthless skills either... I 'support' EVE:Legion. Since the PS4 is just a dream, make it easy to sell our characters and our Beta access...
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2287	Posted - 2014.05.15 20:21:00 - [318] - Quote Celus Ivara wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: Celus Ivara wrote: First off I'd like to say that often times when people find themselves pushed towards opposing sides on an issue, they tend to reflexively take defensive stances and the conversation becomes more of a pitched battle instead of a seeking towards a shared truth. (Akin to the blind men and the elephant.) You responded to the ideas put forward, I'm very happy to see that. :) (Okay, that sounds super insulting, not meant to be.) My goal is-and-has-been to help us figure out what's going on with the issues surrounding the Progression system. Not trying to score "right" points. :) My post was a response to some things I was seeing people argue (either directly, or as a strong undercurrent to other arguments): - The current progression is fine and should be left alone. - The current progression has problems and should be fixed in the way EVE's progression has been "fixed" (certificates, ISIS, etc..) My post was meant to show that: 1: There are intrinsic problems with the current progression. 2: EVE's progression has a mosaic of problems unto itself, thus shouldn't be considered a panacea for Dust. 3: EVE is fundamentally different from Dust, thus a fix for one won't be a fix for the other. Obviously not everything is perfect with EVE's system. We are asking for it's layout basically (bonuses on pretty much every skill, trees that has all similar things in them, no forced skills that has nothing to give). Also, ISIS and certificates are tools to help guide someone along with their progress; a check list if you will. That will pretty much always help if the player uses it (and knows what he/she is looking at). Lastly, if they actually thought the newcomers how to actually use the systems, maybe they would understand more frequently rather than being thrown into the deep in, seeing this massive wall of **, and then saying " it, it's too much, I quit.". I get what you're saying, but I honestly think that that's what everyone here that disagrees with it thinks. Kevall answered this pretty well: Kevall Longstride wrote:** Adding a dust version of ISIS, certificates, explanations... That's three layers of extra UI you've just added (which takes resources) and adds more stuff to read through before gaining the clarity you crave. There is an admission by some that the old system needs 're-done but better' but there is a point I think we can all agree, where there is so much to redo, its actually better to just start again. We've had the current system for over a year and numbers haven't grown. Godin, the proposed solution of fixing the nastiest of the problems with the present system, then adding an ISIS and/or Certificate system on top of it to explain good skill combinations to new players has merit. But it also carries some strong costs. Main one being that a new player will have to figure out ISIS/Certificates before they can use them to figure out skills. :\ I suspect "simply" (heavy quotes) designing the skill-tree in a way that fundamentally encourages good use of SP would make for a more user friendly system. :) Adding bonuses, and making T I tiers useful isn't hard. And I've already said it several times now; if you explain something to someone rather than throwing them in the deep end, they might understand it. I don't want to be forced to go own a skill tree that I don't want to to get a single weapon or equipment. So why in the hell should I be forced to be? (and I'm pretty sure that making a interesting tutorial would although take a bit longer, would in the long run hook players into playing more, especially if you explain everything well, as well as the potential battles and such that you could have). So I ask again: How is restricting players for newcomers and/or idiots a better idea than keeping everything free and explaining it all? click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws Proficiency V. 1319	Posted - 2014.05.15 20:28:00 - [319] - Quote The skill system was never an issue. Its flaws came from the poor implementation done in dust since they copy pasted the system from eve and then broke it. Wanting to change the skill tree system is wrong period. I have to also add that working close to a CPM that ni longer represents or understands the community is also wrong. They where chosen for a term and that term is done. If you need feedback a new CPM must be chosen first to really represent what the commuminity wants. Let me be clear, this is not a personal attack on the cpm but i feel there are player that are a lot more knowledgable and active on the game than them. Out of all the problems in dust, the skill tree system is not one of them. Plasma Cannon Advocate Dust 514 Survivor
XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws Proficiency V. 1320	Posted - 2014.05.15 20:31:00 - [320] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: So I ask again: How is restricting players for newcomers and/or idiots a better idea than keeping everything free and explaining it all? This Plasma Cannon Advocate Dust 514 Survivor

Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1313	Posted - 2014.05.15 20:59:00 - [321] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Kevall Longstride wrote: You've not met Hilmar have you? Not in person, no. Though if I was in charge of a company I wouldn't want my producer crapping on its products. Hilmar likes being told stuff straight. It's why Legion as a prototype was shown at Fanfest. Legion was JC telling everyone Dust has problems so here's what he proposes. CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Your Absolut End Escrow Removal and Acquisition Negative-Feedback 550	Posted - 2014.05.15 21:16:00 - [322] - Quote I like the skill system as it is, maybe just add a function or a window on the actual skill tree where you can see in which mod/weapon/suit you currently plan to skill into. I dislike the idea of geting put in a box, no matter how many options you include to that, you will never have the true freedom of the tree we have right now. I for example run a Scout without cloaks most of the times, bringing intel for my squad, putting links and hoves down while I flank enemys and slay them down. I'm much more of a logi/assault scout than what this class originally is designed for. I like it the way it is and I'm a useful part of my team, I don't think this combination would be realisable in the new skill tree. New Eden is freedom, you wanna scam? You do. You wanna assault logi? You do. No need to dumb a game down, dumb people can go play dumb games, there are plenty out there. The complexity and meta game is what drags guys into this game plus its also what keeps guys in this game. Finding the fitting which perfectly fits YOUR way of play, not being forced into a dedicated role.If I wanted that I'd be an undead witcjmaster in WOW, but I don't want to. All we need for this game is a great way to teach guys how to use the tools they have at hand. A proper introductional video, or maybe even better a tutorial ingame which leads you step by step through the process. Make it so that you make "Noob X" (I love that name btw) goes to the skill tree, skills into a module or something, than lead him to the fitting screen where he buys and uses that skilled module. We should conenctrate on teaching new guys, jot dumbing down or beloved systems.
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1623	Posted - 2014.05.15 21:17:00 - [323] - Quote Oh CCP, you make me laugh. You should listen to your playerbase. After all, they are the ones playing this game for entertainment. They know what they want from the game. Don't dumb down the game. It isn't neccesary and I guarantee most players will be upset over it. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
Meeko Fent Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 2039	Posted - 2014.05.15 21:54:00 - [324] - Quote I feel that the EVE system is only hard to understand because the lack of a tree to look at. Other then that, EVE is pretty understandable. Look at our current system Z. Its easy to look at and understand what goes where. And From my experience in EVE (trial account), its almost the same as EVE. Grouping a weapon with a suit seems a bit upsettingly bad, basically killing the diversity you COULD have in a DUST fit, Because you then cant easily skill a Assault Suit as well as a Sniper and a cloak, with each of them being "generally" recognized as in a different class style (assault, scout, sniper). Because you wanted to be something you're not.
Cyrus Militani Leon Conglomerate 51	Posted - 2014.05.15 23:19:00 - [325] - Quote CCP Z wrote: Quote: The proposed system makes it difficult to change directions if youGÇÖre deeply invested in something you donGÇÖt like. Under the system proposed you donGÇÖt unlock certain weapons until much deeper in the tree. As balancing nerfs/buffs come out (and theyGÇÖre unavoidable in a game of this nature) itGÇÖs going to make adjusting your character much more difficult. We will offer a Respec Option (which does not exist in DUST 514). More information will come down the line as the projectGÇÖs development progresses. This is absurd. If a respect option is "the solution" for changing directions this new system is already broken. So what you're saying is I'll either need insanely more SP to diversify my class / fittings, or I'll need to respec every time I want to change classes. I have seen this in other games, and nothing is worse than hearing "hold on I need to respec into x". There is absolutely no problem with how the current DUST 514 skill tree is broken out now. I love it because you can mix and match and truly make it your own. The ONLY reason why I want to respect NOW in DUST 514 is because I have no way of trying something out before I skill into it. Even if there is a Militia version of something, the Militia version does not do the real thing justice, especially the Assault versions. A battle simulator with "simulator fittings" would fix this. These "simulator fittings" could be equipped with any item, regardless of ISK or SP. You could have a shooting range for individual mercs and full training simulators for corps. I also feel that match making is terrible. Ranked based match making is worse. If you want the game to be more playable make it more like EVE: Allow players to choose WHO and WHERE they will fight. If I know that D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N is contracted to fight on a planet I could decide to not fight them or decide on a strategy based on knowing how they play, before committing to the battle. I should also know the terrain beforehand so if I hate tanks I can stay away from wide open maps. Make EVERY BATTLE MEAN SOMETHING rather than a boring random rehash of the same thing over and over again. I have more fun in this game planning out my fittings trying make them as cheap and effective as possible than the battles themselves.
ANON Cerberus Tiny Toons 686	Posted - 2014.05.16 00:32:00 - [326] - Quote At this point, we need to actually see a diagram or some sort of depiction of this new progression system. It might not be as bad as it sounds however its hard to visualise at this point. The main thing I keep seeing on the forums is - people DO NOT want to be forced into specific roles and we certainly do not want any dumbing down / being pigeon holed into role X role Y role Z.
Captain Crutches Nexus Marines 114	Posted - 2014.05.16 00:42:00 - [327] - Quote Cyrus Militani wrote: If a respect option is "the solution" for changing directions this new system is already broken. So what you're saying is I'll either need insanely more SP to diversify my class / fittings, or I'll need to respec every time I want to change classes. I have seen this in other games, and nothing is worse than hearing "hold on I need to respec into x". This. The mark of a good progression system, IMO, should be that no respecs of any sort are necessary. I put up with them in Dust thus far with the understanding that when all planned equipment and skills were hammered out they would stop. Hearing you plan to offer them in Legion right from the get-go tells me the system must be (at least a little bit) deeply flawed or you wouldn't let us have them. Legion is absolutely the right move for the future of Dust. How CCP went about revealing it is the biggest problem.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8592	Posted - 2014.05.16 02:30:00 - [328] - Quote Captain Crutches wrote: Cyrus Militani wrote: If a respect option is "the solution" for changing directions this new system is already broken. So what you're saying is I'll either need insanely more SP to diversify my class / fittings, or I'll need to respec every time I want to change classes. I have seen this in other games, and nothing is worse than hearing "hold on I need to respec into x". This. The mark of a good progression system, IMO, should be that no respecs of any sort are necessary. I put up with them in Dust thus far with the understanding that when all planned equipment and skills were hammered out they would stop. Hearing you plan to offer them in Legion right from the get-go tells me the system must be (at least a little bit) deeply flawed or you wouldn't let us have them. Agreed. As long as you give new players in the academy a chance to try out every suit, weapon, module, and vehicle before they graduate and present them with the proper tools to understand the skill progression (ISIS) then there would be no need to implement a respec. PS: Didn't CCP say earlier they were reluctant to give out respecs? On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 10792	Posted - 2014.05.16 03:34:00 - [329] - Quote To CCP Z: [Progression] I would prefer if dropsuit progression wasn't so centered around upgrades but sidegrades, so you would unlock suits that gain a big strength, but at the cost of a weakness. Examples: Instead of unlocking even better assault suits in the assault role tree, you can unlock a new skill to use a new specialization with no grenade, less slots, & less speed than an assault in exchange for a bonus to range & zoom, as well as inheriting the basic medium & assault bonuses (call it the marksmen). Going deeper in the logistics tree grants you access to a new specialization with less slots but has built-in E-war equipment. Would inherit basic medium & logistics bonuses in addition to bonuses to the E-war equipment (call it the engineer). Going deeper in the scout tree unlocks a new specialization with only one equipment slot, less modules, but 2 sidearms (or 3 sidearms & no light weapon); in addition to inheriting the basic light & scout bonuses, they could have a bonus to sidearm damage & racial knife fitting (predator or assassin). Going deeper in the sentinel tree unlocks a new specialization with less slots, penalty (or restriction) to fitting light weapons, but in exchange inherit the basic heavy & sentinel bonuses in addition to racial heavy weapon damage (sentry). [Roles] Dust 514 has had a very limited and boring set of roles. It was fairly recently that we got the commando, which added some spice to the formula, and there are promised roles we are still missing: there was a role mentioned by CCP called the commander or crusader mentioned by CCP that was supposed to give area-of effect bonuses to teammates, and penalties to enemies (like rate of fire reduction). There is also the still missing pilot suit that was supposed to give bonuses to vehicles. Despite the game's lack of modes besides just the basic archetypes, you want to remove the commando? I implore you to not only keep the commando, but to also expand specializations into a wide variety of options with various specialties (like that area-of-effect specialization CCP never added). Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1332	Posted - 2014.05.16 03:41:00 - [330] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Captain Crutches wrote: Cyrus Militani wrote: If a respect option is "the solution" for changing directions this new system is already broken. So what you're saying is I'll either need insanely more SP to diversify my class / fittings, or I'll need to respec every time I want to change classes. I have seen this in other games, and nothing is worse than hearing "hold on I need to respec into x". This. The mark of a good progression system, IMO, should be that no respecs of any sort are necessary. I put up with them in Dust thus far with the understanding that when all planned equipment and skills were hammered out they would stop. Hearing you plan to offer them in Legion right from the get-go tells me the system must be (at least a little bit) deeply flawed or you wouldn't let us have them. Agreed. As long as you give new players in the academy a chance to try out every suit, weapon, module, and vehicle before they graduate and present them with the proper tools to understand the skill progression (ISIS) then there would be no need to implement a respec. PS: Didn't CCP say earlier they were reluctant to give out respecs? I think they called them "disruptive" for the game and community just during EVE Vegas. I will also agree that "needs respecs to work" ought to be an instant disqualifier when it comes to designing a progression system. Not only do they not fit into New Eden from a conceptual standpoint. The potential for negative impact on balance, retention and the EVE/Legion economy have been discussed ad nauseam in this forum so it troubles me to see it suggested in passing just like that. It's like a new and improved sports car model that also happens to ship with an unreliable engine. That's why a pair of horses is included in the price in case of the inevitable engine failure: They introduce their own set of requirements and risks, they don't fit in with the product you're shipping and they really should not be necessary in the first place. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...

Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8596	Posted - 2014.05.16 04:00:00 - [331] - Quote Malkai Inos wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Captain Crutches wrote: Cyrus Militani wrote: If a respect option is "the solution" for changing directions this new system is already broken. So what you're saying is I'll either need insanely more SP to diversify my class / fittings, or I'll need to respec every time I want to change classes. I have seen this in other games, and nothing is worse than hearing "hold on I need to respec into x". This. The mark of a good progression system, IMO, should be that no respecs of any sort are necessary. I put up with them in Dust thus far with the understanding that when all planned equipment and skills were hammered out they would stop. Hearing you plan to offer them in Legion right from the get-go tells me the system must be (at least a little bit) deeply flawed or you wouldn't let us have them. Agreed. As long as you give new players in the academy a chance to try out every suit, weapon, module, and vehicle before they graduate and present them with the proper tools to understand the skill progression (ISIS) then there would be no need to implement a respec. PS: Didn't CCP say earlier they were reluctant to give out respecs? I think they called them "disruptive" for the game and community just during EVE Vegas. I will also agree that "needs respecs to work" ought to be an instant disqualifier when it comes to designing a progression system. Not only do they not fit into New Eden from a conceptual standpoint. The potential for negative impact on balance, retention and the EVE/Legion economy have been discussed ad nauseam in this forum so it troubles me to see it suggested in passing just like that. It's like a new and improved sports car model that also happens to ship with an unreliable engine. That's why a pair of horses is included in the price in case of the inevitable engine failure: They introduce their own set of requirements and risks, they don't fit in with the product you're shipping and they really should not be necessary in the first place. The economy in particular is what came up, though not as often as one hoped, whenever respecs were ever discussed as an option. The New Eden economy relies heavily on players being dependent on one thing or another usually because they were already invested heavily in one role or the other. Let's say for example that you have trained up to be able to fly the Megathron Battleship and need Null T2 ammo for maximum effectiveness for Incursion running. Then let's say I'm a market trader who happens to sell Null ammo on a regular basis and it has become a major part of my trade portfolio. As long as you can only use Null ammo on your ship because that's the extent that you trained for, I'm mostly fine with selling you the ammo you need. But then let's say you get a respec and then instantly swap to a Nightmare Battleship and as a result you need laser crystals instead of the Null ammo I have. That instantly affects my portfolio which took a considerable amount of research and investment to establish. It's not easy finding a diversified portfolio of commodities that have been found to be lucrative and stable. It requires hours, if not days, of monitoring the regional markets for new stable commodities and then having to invest some capital in testing such markets before finally settling in on the various commodities I researched. Of course, the market always changes and I always have to update my portfolio accordingly but that's usually not a problem as the market changes in subtle ways thus allowing me to catch up with the changes. If respecs ever get introduced especially if it encourages FOTM chasers, that will likely cause major market shocks across the region and ultimately impact my entire portfolio and thus force me to change probably more time than it is necessary. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
McFurious TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 780	Posted - 2014.05.16 04:51:00 - [332] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Despite the game's lack of modes besides just the basic archetypes, you want to remove the commando? I implore you to not only keep the commando, but to also expand specializations into a wide variety of options with various specialties (like that area-of-effect specialization CCP never added). Whoa... WHAT?! Somehow I missed this. For the love of all things awesome do not get rid of the commando. That was one of the best things in any of the updates. Half Irish. Often angry. Grizzled Masshole Closed Beta Vet PC > Console
calisk galern BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 2504	Posted - 2014.05.16 05:01:00 - [333] - Quote McFurious wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Despite the game's lack of modes besides just the basic archetypes, you want to remove the commando? I implore you to not only keep the commando, but to also expand specializations into a wide variety of options with various specialties (like that area-of-effect specialization CCP never added). Whoa... WHAT?! Somehow I missed this. For the love of all things awesome do not get rid of the commando. That was one of the best things in any of the updates. according to them the commando has no place yet in their design, this doesn't mean we will never get one, just that as of this moment in time they believe it to not have a place in legion.
Fellhahn Aldrenhost Kinsho Swords Caldari State 3	Posted - 2014.05.16 05:57:00 - [334] - Quote Please do not nest weapon skills as a sub tree of particular suit/frame sizes. I don't want to have to drill needlessly into medium suits, when I'd rather drop as a light or heavy, just so I can use my much loved Rail Rifle (as an example). That's just pouring SP down a drain. Keep weapon skills independent of the drop suit specialization tree.
Fenix Alexarr BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 120	Posted - 2014.05.16 06:21:00 - [335] - Quote Is anyone almost entirely on board with Z's proposed changes? (like >90%) From what I'm reading here the proposed solution needs to be scraped. There's no shame in that, devs. I'd rather get it right than have it wrong when you have the opportunity to basically start from scratch. That being said, if you really are looking to actually use feedback from the players and this isn't just an "FYI" session, thank you. This is the kind of thing Dust has needed sorely for a long time. I only want to stress (again) that it's okay to scrap this new system altogether and start fresh. I'm a developer by trade and I will trash an idea (no matter how heavily invested I am in a solution) if it isn't the absolute best solution at its core for the product. Requirements gathering is hard, but thank you guys for putting real effort into it.
Fenix Alexarr BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 120	Posted - 2014.05.16 06:24:00 - [336] - Quote ANON Cerberus wrote: At this point, we need to actually see a diagram or some sort of depiction of this new progression system. It might not be as bad as it sounds however its hard to visualise at this point. The main thing I keep seeing on the forums is - people DO NOT want to be forced into specific roles and we certainly do not want any dumbing down / being pigeon holed into role X role Y role Z. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnsLCz10CVU&index=31&list=PLldrBIEnJ5hMIXwk_e8-VZb0EldJqXmg_ relevant link.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 2389	Posted - 2014.05.16 06:35:00 - [337] - Quote Reposting based on suggestions from Frame to post here rather than in other threads. I'm not a fan of the skill progression based on what I saw in the Fanfest video. After watching the video I can say that it seems like a step in the wrong direction. One of the things people have criticised about Dust, is that you had to unlock meaningless skills to get to the ones you want. So, why again, do I have to unlock a certain suit (say Logi) so I can unlock the MD? This seems really stupid. I'm also not a fan of the common-uncommon-rare distinction. How is that supposed to be managed when we have an Eve connected market with player crafted gear?
Captain Crutches Nexus Marines 118	Posted - 2014.05.16 07:04:00 - [338] - Quote Fenix Alexarr wrote: Is anyone almost entirely on board with Z's proposed changes? (like >90%) I'm sure some people are. Indeed, they may be just as numerous (if not more so) than those of us who oppose it. It is the dissenters that tend to speak out the loudest, after all. And there are of course the CCP apologists who just go along with whatever and try to justify it in various outlandish ways. (For the record, I'm generally a shameless CCP apologist, but this progression system is just... cringe) Indeed, if "petition" threads weren't frowned upon, I might be tempted to make one for people who are strongly in favor of this system, just to see how many people speak up. While constructive criticism the likes of which this thread is (mostly) full of is definitely healthy, what's even more healthy is when the constructive criticism is constructively criticized and becomes informed, civilized debate (Not just "this system is ** and CCP Z should feel terrible for coming up with it" vs "** you guys, this is great for the game and anyone who thinks otherwise wants to see Legion fail"). Legion is absolutely the right move for the future of Dust. How CCP went about revealing it is the biggest problem.

Galadween Z Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 2	Posted - 2014.05.16 07:49:00 - [339] - Quote Quote: Negative Respec/Skillback idea I love it. That is really the kind of thing I will be looking at for our respec system Quote: ISIS UI Discussion 100% agreed here again, ISIS is the basis of our thinking. I will share the mockups with you when they are ready Quote: Will new players be able to see a noticeable improvement in their abilities as they apply their skill points early in their career? Yes, but mostly they will unlock new items Quote: Will new players that specialize in one role be able to develop enough in a month or two to be able to compete with veteran players? I donGÇÖt mean even playing field, but rather narrowing the gap in the area they specialise in enough to give them a fighting chance. It is a choice you make. Within a couple of months, you will be more than competitive with Veteran player if you invest your effort in one role only Quote: Are you simply collapsing 5 level skills into single nodes? Are you taking a lot of small rewarding steps and replacing them with a few huge daunting steps? Am I going to have to grind for two weeks to get 25% PG from the Engineering node when I only need 5% more PG to make my fit work? We are basically creating 5 nodes level 1 instead of 1 node with 5 levels. It helps people understand and allow our trees to be more linear Quote: Monetization Discussion I can promise you, we are working on the fairest, none pay to win system ever seem in a free to play game. Quote: How is restricting players for newcomers and/or idiots a better idea than keeping everything free and explaining it all? Less frustration leads to better engagement. When a system is way too complex and obscure, you have 2 solution: explain it better, make it simpler. Both solutions are not exclusive, and thatGÇÖs what we are shooting for. Again remember, as CCP_ROUGE stated it during the Keynote, Legion is a prototype, Legion is NOT Dust514, even if they share the same DNA. We have to make drastic changes to make Legion first green lit and then successful. Progression seems to be one of them. If you look at the ecosystem he talked about: Player driven economy, sandbox MMO, Immersive experience, the new Progression System we are working on makes a lot more sense. I am going through all the replies here and will make sure the feedback will help us improve our current design

Mia Romani Nexus Marines 145	Posted - 2014.05.16 07:54:00 - [340] - Quote Galadween Z wrote: Quote: Are you simply collapsing 5 level skills into single nodes? Are you taking a lot of small rewarding steps and replacing them with a few huge daunting steps? Am I going to have to grind for two weeks to get 25% PG from the Engineering node when I only need 5% more PG to make my fit work? We are basically creating 5 nodes level 1 instead of 1 node with 5 levels. It helps people understand and allow our trees to be more linear Ohhhh... That makes A LOT more sense! Thank you!

Musta Tornius Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1347	Posted - 2014.05.16 08:09:00 - [341] - Quote CCP Z: It would be really helpful if we could get a picture of the current proposed skilltree, to discuss it better. We (most of us) understand it's work in progress and is subject to change, but it would help clarify tremendously what you have in mind and also focus the discussion around it.
Argo Filch Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 77	Posted - 2014.05.16 08:25:00 - [342] - Quote You know what the sad part is? This whole DUST514 was too complicated (or people are just f-ing morons that can`t even peel a banana) progression wise would`ve been no problem at all if you CCP would`ve cared to implement any kind of meaningful NPE into the game. As it was (and i`m talking past tense here, because for all intents and purposes DUST is dead!) the game didn`t have any kind of NPE at all! Three things that would`ve made more players stay and that would`ve been doable without any problems on the PS3 (still think the "PS3 is too limiting" argument is mostly bullshit). 1. Free Respec till you reach 2mil SP. 2mil SP are about 4 months of passive SP or about 2 months of regular capping. If somebody hasn`t found their niche in this game by then all hope`s lost anyways. But this would fix problems like "I`ma gonna be a tanker but then realize i can`t sustain that iso wise!". This would`ve needed some form of button in the skill tree that vanishes after 2mil SP are passed. 2. Every and all weapons, modules, suits as militia variant. As it stands now there`s a ton of things not available as militia gear. This would rectify the problem that people need to skill into **** before getting to try out it out at all. Don`t really remember if the SCR has a militia variant but i for example fount out through the Templar BPOs that i don`t really like that weapon. 3. Virtual Training Ground: Something like that. MWO is the shining example of this. If you want to try out a new Mech build you get into a single player only version of the standard maps and have immobile enemy mechs on the ground that you can shoot. Or just to get the hang of the controls if you played for the first time. Dust could`ve just used any one of the maps with fixed sockets, placed a few immobile dummy enemy suits, tanks, lavs and so forth on that map for the player to shoot at. Frist thing. You could learn the controls of the game, second you can try out stuff in this mode. Get a new fitting? Test it there for a couple of minutes. Wanna try another type of weapon? Fit a militia one and it first to see if you like it!. Wanna give tanking a go? Build one. Spawn it there, go to town on enemy dummy tanks. Wanna learn how to fly a derpship... well you know what i`m saying here. In my opinion, these three things would`ve increased player retention by a very big margin. Because new players aren`t thrown into matches with protobears after 3 academy rounds to get stomped and then leave! But what did we get instead? Academy mode... And yeah i know... CCP Z thinks that people shouldn`t have every weapon available from the start... but to you dear sir i say, you`re so wrong! so completely wrong here!

CCP Z C C P C C P Alliance 68	Posted - 2014.05.16 08:27:00 - [343] - Quote Quote: Negative Respec/Skillback idea I love it. That is really the kind of thing I will be looking at for our respec system Quote: ISIS UI Discussion 100% agreed here again, ISIS is the basis of our thinking. I will share the mockups with you when they are ready Quote: Will new players be able to see a noticeable improvement in their abilities as they apply their skill points early in their career? Yes, but mostly they will unlock new items Quote: Will new players that specialize in one role be able to develop enough in a month or two to be able to compete with veteran players? I donGÇÖt mean even playing field, but rather narrowing the gap in the area they specialise in enough to give them a fighting chance. It is a choice you make. Within a couple of months, you will be more than competitive with Veteran player if you invest your effort in one role only Quote: Are you simply collapsing 5 level skills into single nodes? Are you taking a lot of small rewarding steps and replacing them with a few huge daunting steps? Am I going to have to grind for two weeks to get 25% PG from the Engineering node when I only need 5% more PG to make my fit work? We are basically creating 5 nodes level 1 instead of 1 node with 5 levels. It helps people understand and allow our trees to be more linear Quote: Monetization Discussion I can promise you, we are working on the fairest, none pay to win system ever seem in a free to play game. Quote: How is restricting players for newcomers and/or idiots a better idea than keeping everything free and explaining it all? Less frustration leads to better engagement. When a system is way too complex and obscure, you have 2 solution: explain it better, make it simpler. Both solutions are not exclusive, and thatGÇÖs what we are shooting for. Again remember, as CCP_ROUGE stated it during the Keynote, Legion is a prototype, Legion is NOT Dust514, even if they share the same DNA. We have to make drastic changes to make Legion first green lit and then successful. Progression seems to be one of them. If you look at the ecosystem he talked about: Player driven economy, sandbox MMO, Immersive experience, the new Progression System we are working on makes a lot more sense. I am going through all the replies here and will make sure the feedback will help us improve our current design Monetization and Progression Producer -CCP Z

Mia Romani Nexus Marines 145	Posted - 2014.05.16 08:47:00 - [344] - Quote CCP Z wrote: Quote: Are you simply collapsing 5 level skills into single nodes? Are you taking a lot of small rewarding steps and replacing them with a few huge daunting steps? Am I going to have to grind for two weeks to get 25% PG from the Engineering node when I only need 5% more PG to make my fit work? We are basically creating 5 nodes level 1 instead of 1 node with 5 levels. It helps people understand and allow our trees to be more linear Ohhh... That makes a lot more sense! Thank you!
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1313	Posted - 2014.05.16 08:49:00 - [345] - Quote Thanks for this new batch of answers Z. I do have a specific question regarding the Common, Un-common and Rare items. With you getting rid of the Standard and Advanced tiers and sticking to prototype only, it makes sense that if the Common tier is the Weapon you can buy for the from market to use when you unlock it in the tree, the Un-common and Rare are going to be loot drops only. Is their damage/effect output is going to be the same as the common but the fitting requirements lowered allowing their use without first having to unlock them from a role tree? This would be similar to how Meta Level works with tech 1 gear in Eve and obviously would make them very valuable on a player market to players not wanting, if I use the Logistics example from your presentation, to go through the logistics tree to unlock the Mass driver. If that is not your thinking with these items, could you explain what is? Because having them as I've just explained, would go a long way to counter peoples fears of being forced into a role they don't want and give one hell of an ISK sink for those wanting to save SP. CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University

CCP Z C C P C C P Alliance 68	Posted - 2014.05.16 08:56:00 - [346] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: Item and Variation discussion. Think about it this way: there will be no market in the way it has been implemented on PS3. All items have to be looted from our scavenging/pve/wild pvp areas and then traded between players. Again, no weapon or module will be available for AURUM or give you any type of leapfrogging through the Progression. Basically, all variations of an item will have the same Metalevel but variations will be a little better in terms of performance . Monetization and Progression Producer -CCP Z

Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1313	Posted - 2014.05.16 09:01:00 - [347] - Quote Right so no NPC seeding to the market what so ever then? I take it then like now, there will be some same basic free fits to allow us to destroy each other initially, in order for these drops items to be saleable on the market? CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
steadyhand amarr shadows of 514 3067	Posted - 2014.05.16 09:07:00 - [348] - Quote Will unlocking items (basic items on the new system) be part of new players early system so they can spread out their sp to try out all da things? I know thats phrased oddly cant think of better way of explaining other than, the abity for a new player to try new items must be protected incase they want to bail from their there chosen spec "i dont care about you or your goals, just show me the dam isk" winner of EU squad cup GOGO power rangers
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1313	Posted - 2014.05.16 09:08:00 - [349] - Quote Also would you consider, at a later date perhaps once the market has stabilised, rare drop items that do allow for a limited leapfrogging of a role tree? Not for the price of Aurum but the game currency, ISK. They would be very desirable on the market and a real ISK cash cow for anyone finding them. CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 2759	Posted - 2014.05.16 09:10:00 - [350] - Quote CCP Z wrote: Again, no weapon or module will be available for AURUM or give you any type of leapfrogging through the Progression. I-¦m assuming dropsuits and vehicle BPOs will be available for purchase with AURUM then? This message was brought to you by the PC master race.

Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1313	Posted - 2014.05.16 09:14:00 - [351] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: CCP Z wrote: Again, no weapon or module will be available for AURUM or give you any type of leapfrogging through the Progression. I-¦m assuming dropsuits and vehicle BPOs will be available for purchase with AURUM then? I'm not too sure on that. As I understand it they want to pull away from AURUM and use a very successful system that a not unrelated game already uses.... But I'm guessing Z wants to leave that till he's ready for the monetisation chat. CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University

CCP Z C C P C C P Alliance 70	Posted - 2014.05.16 09:26:00 - [352] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: CCP Z wrote: Again, no weapon or module will be available for AURUM or give you any type of leapfrogging through the Progression. I-¦m assuming dropsuits and vehicle BPOs will be available for purchase with AURUM then? Of course not. Monetization and Progression Producer -CCP Z

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 10796	Posted - 2014.05.16 09:28:00 - [353] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: To CCP Z: [Progression] I would prefer if dropsuit progression wasn't so centered around upgrades but sidegrades, so you would unlock suits that gain a big strength, but at the cost of a weakness. Examples: Instead of unlocking even better assault suits in the assault role tree, you can unlock a new skill to use a new specialization with no grenade, less slots, & less speed than an assault in exchange for a bonus to range & zoom, as well as inheriting the assault bonuses (call it the marksmen). Going deeper in the logistics tree grants you access to a new specialization with less slots but has built-in E-war equipment. Would inherit logistics bonuses in addition to bonuses to the E-war equipment (call it the engineer). Going deeper in the scout tree unlocks a new specialization with only one equipment slot, less modules, but 2 sidearms (or 3 sidearms & no light weapon); in addition to inheriting the scout bonuses, they could have a bonus to sidearm damage & racial knife fitting (predator or assassin). Going deeper in the sentinel tree unlocks a new specialization with less slots, penalty (or restriction) to fitting light weapons, but in exchange inherit the sentinel bonuses in addition to racial heavy weapon damage (sentry). [Roles] Dust 514 has had a very limited and boring set of roles. It was fairly recently that we got the commando, which added some spice to the formula, and there are promised roles we are still missing: there was a role mentioned by CCP called the commander or crusader mentioned by CCP that was supposed to give area-of effect bonuses to teammates, and penalties to enemies (like rate of fire reduction). There is also the still missing pilot suit that was supposed to give bonuses to vehicles. Despite the game's lack of modes besides just the basic archetypes, you want to remove the commando? I implore you to not only keep the commando, but to also expand specializations into a wide variety of options with various specialties (like that area-of-effect specialization CCP never added). Any response to my concerns? Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
Aran Abbas Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 419	Posted - 2014.05.16 09:29:00 - [354] - Quote Any word on how the BPO's already in existence will transfer over to Legion, CCP Z? Internal thoughts, even if nothing is set in stone?

CCP Z C C P C C P Alliance 71	Posted - 2014.05.16 09:32:00 - [355] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Feedback on Progression I like a lot the sidegrades idea and that is something that our Design Team is currently looking at (more or less modules, different weapon types, different abilities like being able to hack or not ...) Monetization and Progression Producer -CCP Z

Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1313	Posted - 2014.05.16 09:49:00 - [356] - Quote See, no Aur use at all for stuff in game.. Boosters are another matter obviously CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5646	Posted - 2014.05.16 09:51:00 - [357] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: CCP Z wrote: Again, no weapon or module will be available for AURUM or give you any type of leapfrogging through the Progression. I-¦m assuming dropsuits and vehicle BPOs will be available for purchase with AURUM then? The only BPO that will be in the game is your personal dropsuit - of which there will be only be one. Your weapons/modules and what not are all expendable on your fittings and what not. The only thing you'll never really "lose" IS your dropsuit. The best way that this can be described is what CCP Z said at Fanfest - it's like your Iron Man suit. Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5646	Posted - 2014.05.16 09:56:00 - [358] - Quote CCP Z wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Feedback on Progression I like a lot the sidegrades idea and that is something that our Design Team is currently looking at (more or less modules, different weapon types, different abilities like being able to hack or not ...) One thing I really want to know is how you guys are going to progress with... well, progression itself. From what you presented at Fanfest, you choose a role before a race - which makes sense, it flows much in the same way of Battlefield 2142. However, one thing that has been kinda irking me is how the player's dropsuit will look until they've chosen a race? Is there going to be a neutral suit that has no aesthetic value like the Amarr gold/filigree or the Gallente green/sexy curves...? Just a "frame" of a suit with no real graphical element to it? If so, are those elements added in when we've established what our role/race is? Are we going to be able to mix elements together to make our own playstyle (Caldari Shield buffer with Gallente repair rate, for instance) like the pirate factions in Eve? Sorry for so many questions, just the whole progression process seems quite foreign to me Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 10796	Posted - 2014.05.16 10:07:00 - [359] - Quote CCP Z wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Feedback on Progression I like a lot the sidegrades idea and that is something that our Design Team is currently looking at (more or less modules, different weapon types, different abilities like being able to hack or not ...) At Fanfest you mentioned after the race choice in the skill tree there are these specializations. Can you give any examples or details about these specializations? If the commando doesn't make it into Legion, can there be an assault specialization with 2 light weapons? possibly at the cost of something else. Also, can you share some monetization ideas? Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2858	Posted - 2014.05.16 10:59:00 - [360] - Quote Fenix Alexarr wrote: Is anyone almost entirely on board with Z's proposed changes? (like >90%) From what I'm reading here the proposed solution needs to be scraped. There's no shame in that, devs. I'd rather get it right than have it wrong when you have the opportunity to basically start from scratch. That being said, if you really are looking to actually use feedback from the players and this isn't just an "FYI" session, thank you. This is the kind of thing Dust has needed sorely for a long time. I only want to stress (again) that it's okay to scrap this new system altogether and start fresh. I'm a developer by trade and I will trash an idea (no matter how heavily invested I am in a solution) if it isn't the absolute best solution at its core for the product. Requirements gathering is hard, but thank you guys for putting real effort into it. no don't get us wrong there are parts of it we like, I think making you choose your faction AFTER you choose your specalization, in that you have a CONCORD/non-descript Assault suit first, is a master stroke. It's just that we don't want weapons and equipment tied to these dropsuits, it's unccesacry, highly limiting and pretty much agains the nature of what LEGION should be. Other than that there are lot of things we like, replacing the nodes with images where applicable replacing the 5lvl nodes with single level nodes giving people the oppurtunity to a do a role really really well.. Looks like its back to FPS Military Shooter 56 Monkey Mac - Just another pile of discarded ashes on the battlefield!

ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 2925	Posted - 2014.05.16 11:58:00 - [361] - Quote CCP Z, It seems like most of the discussion and concern is centered around where modules and weapons fit into this new skill tree you want to build. So far, everything I've seen has seemed very logical from a 'Dropsuit Command' standpoint, very similar to the ISIS system in EVE. But "Weaponry' and 'Dropsuit Upgrades' seem like they will undergo a very radical change. Could you give us just a basic idea of how deep you intend to place modules and weapons in each tree? Will the be available at the Basic Frame level, the Specialist level, and/or the racial level? All three? Are you intending to have many different variants unlocked through tree progression? For example... Academy Suit.......Basic Medium Suit..........Assault Suit.........Caldari Assault Suit (Whats here?)..........(Rail Rifle?).............(Assault Rail Rifle?) ...... (anything?) Where do modules fit in here? Some basic answers here would give us all some talking points while you finish up a prototype of the skill tree you feel you are ready to share.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3359	Posted - 2014.05.16 13:10:00 - [362] - Quote CCP Z wrote: Negative Respec/Skillback idea I love it. That is really the kind of thing I will be looking at for our respec system ISIS UI Discussion 100% agreed here again, ISIS is the basis of our thinking. I will share the mockups with you when they are ready Will new players be able to see a noticeable improvement in their abilities as they apply their skill points early in their career? Yes, but mostly they will unlock new items Will new players that specialize in one role be able to develop enough in a month or two to be able to compete with veteran players? I donGÇÖt mean even playing field, but rather narrowing the gap in the area they specialise in enough to give them a fighting chance. It is a choice you make. Within a couple of months, you will be more than competitive with Veteran player if you invest your effort in one role only Are you simply collapsing 5 level skills into single nodes? Are you taking a lot of small rewarding steps and replacing them with a few huge daunting steps? Am I going to have to grind for two weeks to get 25% PG from the Engineering node when I only need 5% more PG to make my fit work? We are basically creating 5 nodes level 1 instead of 1 node with 5 levels. It helps people understand and allow our trees to be more linear Monetization Discussion I can promise you, we are working on the fairest, none pay to win system ever seem in a free to play game. How is restricting players for newcomers and/or idiots a better idea than keeping everything free and explaining it all? Less frustration leads to better engagement. When a system is way too complex and obscure, you have 2 solution: explain it better, make it simpler. Both solutions are not exclusive, and thatGÇÖs what we are shooting for. Again remember, as CCP_ROUGE stated it during the Keynote, Legion is a prototype, Legion is NOT Dust514, even if they share the same DNA. We have to make drastic changes to make Legion first green lit and then successful. Progression seems to be one of them. If you look at the ecosystem he talked about: Player driven economy, sandbox MMO, Immersive experience, the new Progression System we are working on makes a lot more sense. I am going through all the replies here and will make sure the feedback will help us improve our current design Ok, CCP Z, you are starting to win me over. Converting 5 level nodes into 5 separate nodes (instead of 1 big node) is something I can get behind, particularly since it does not restrict you to 5 when 3 or 6 would work better. Say you were going to include a skill that increases clip size. 5 nodes that each increase clip size by a small percentage would work great for automatic weapons. It would not work so great for a sniper rifle or a flaylock pistol. For those weapons you might only want to have 1 or 2 nodes that each give a single additional round, rather than a percentage. If that is how you are looking at it, then your system may have greater versatility than the old system. Some of your other points make me feel a lot more optimistic as well. Thanks for having the courage to engage the player base this early in the development cycle. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1335	Posted - 2014.05.16 13:28:00 - [363] - Quote CCP Z wrote: Kevall Longstride wrote: Item and Variation discussion. Think about it this way: there will be no market in the way it has been implemented on PS3. All items have to be looted from our scavenging/pve/wild pvp areas and then traded between players. Again, no weapon or module will be available for AURUM or give you any type of leapfrogging through the Progression. Basically, all variations of an item will have the same Metalevel but variations will be a little better in terms of performance . So, wait. Are there plans to introduce any kind of industry/production/invention, be it through the EVE/Legion connection or as a self sufficient profession for Legion players? You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Samael Artico Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 123	Posted - 2014.05.16 13:40:00 - [364] - Quote CCP Z wrote: stuff Why are the skill trees being unified? Aren't there other ways to improve the NPE that don't annoy the bittervets?
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3360	Posted - 2014.05.16 13:47:00 - [365] - Quote CCP Z wrote: Kevall Longstride wrote: Item and Variation discussion. Think about it this way: there will be no market in the way it has been implemented on PS3. All items have to be looted from our scavenging/pve/wild pvp areas and then traded between players. Again, no weapon or module will be available for AURUM or give you any type of leapfrogging through the Progression. Basically, all variations of an item will have the same Metalevel but variations will be a little better in terms of performance . I would love to be in that first Closed Beta event where all the unarmed mercs go scrounging in a barren wasteland somewhere trying to find their first assault rifle, so that they can fight off Rogue drones while they look for more weapons and gear to fill out their fit and start seeding the market. Good thing you already have a player base of masochists to draw on, who will enjoy walking unarmed and unequipped into a dangerous landscape in order to find the stuff we need to get the economy going. I mean, you could seed some stuff at first to get things started, but that would not be as fun. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3360	Posted - 2014.05.16 14:06:00 - [366] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: [Roles] Dust 514 has had a very limited and boring set of roles. It was fairly recently that we got the commando, which added some spice to the formula, and there are promised roles we are still missing: there was a role mentioned by CCP called the commander or crusader mentioned by CCP that was supposed to give area-of effect bonuses to teammates, and penalties to enemies (like rate of fire reduction). There is also the still missing pilot suit that was supposed to give bonuses to vehicles. Despite the game's lack of modes besides just the basic archetypes, you want to remove the commando? I implore you to not only keep the commando, but to also expand specializations into a wide variety of options with various specialties (like that area-of-effect specialization CCP never added). I like the idea of the crusader suit that gives bonuses to people close by, but this also gave me an idea for an E-War module. Jammer: When activated this device masks the sensor profile of any friendly suit within 50m by creating excessive electronic noise, but increases the profile of the person who has the active jammer equipped. This module could be used both to mask an assault on a point, and to act as bate in springing an ambush. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3360	Posted - 2014.05.16 14:11:00 - [367] - Quote CCP Z wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Feedback on Progression I like a lot the sidegrades idea and that is something that our Design Team is currently looking at (more or less modules, different weapon types, different abilities like being able to hack or not ...) Just remember, Sentinels are a bit War Point starved as it is. If you take away their ability to hack, you need to be thinking about ways to give them another way of generating some WP other than just slaying. (Not against the idea, just raising an issue you need to consider.) Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.

CCP Logibro C C P C C P Alliance 7611	Posted - 2014.05.16 14:11:00 - [368] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: CCP Z wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Feedback on Progression I like a lot the sidegrades idea and that is something that our Design Team is currently looking at (more or less modules, different weapon types, different abilities like being able to hack or not ...) At Fanfest you mentioned after the race choice in the skill tree there are these specializations. Can you give any examples or details about these specializations? If the commando doesn't make it into Legion, can there be an assault specialization with 2 light weapons? possibly at the cost of something else. Also, can you share some monetization ideas? The current default Assault has two light weapons. Commandos haven't really been worked on yet, but if they stick around it's likely they'll have a new role. CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites (a¦á_a¦á)

RailTank QQ SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 43	Posted - 2014.05.16 14:17:00 - [369] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: CCP Z wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Feedback on Progression I like a lot the sidegrades idea and that is something that our Design Team is currently looking at (more or less modules, different weapon types, different abilities like being able to hack or not ...) At Fanfest you mentioned after the race choice in the skill tree there are these specializations. Can you give any examples or details about these specializations? If the commando doesn't make it into Legion, can there be an assault specialization with 2 light weapons? possibly at the cost of something else. Also, can you share some monetization ideas? The current default Assault has two light weapons. Commandos haven't really been worked on yet, but if they stick around it's likely they'll have a new role. Oh really.....hmmmm..... Interesting Don't mention popcorn or lackthereof while watching CPM0 go supernova, forum overlords don't like it. SoldnerVonkuechle
Fenix Alexarr BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 123	Posted - 2014.05.16 14:21:00 - [370] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: CCP Z wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Feedback on Progression I like a lot the sidegrades idea and that is something that our Design Team is currently looking at (more or less modules, different weapon types, different abilities like being able to hack or not ...) At Fanfest you mentioned after the race choice in the skill tree there are these specializations. Can you give any examples or details about these specializations? If the commando doesn't make it into Legion, can there be an assault specialization with 2 light weapons? possibly at the cost of something else. Also, can you share some monetization ideas? The current default Assault has two light weapons. Commandos haven't really been worked on yet, but if they stick around it's likely they'll have a new role. Please don't tie weapons to suits :( Is there any reason they MUST be tied to suits?

Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3361	Posted - 2014.05.16 14:30:00 - [371] - Quote Malkai Inos wrote: CCP Z wrote: Kevall Longstride wrote: Item and Variation discussion. Think about it this way: there will be no market in the way it has been implemented on PS3. All items have to be looted from our scavenging/pve/wild pvp areas and then traded between players. Again, no weapon or module will be available for AURUM or give you any type of leapfrogging through the Progression. Basically, all variations of an item will have the same Metalevel but variations will be a little better in terms of performance . So, wait. Are there plans to introduce any kind of industry/production/invention, be it through the EVE/Legion connection or as a self sufficient profession for Legion players? Edit: Or does the Legion economy amount to nothing more than fully operational items popping out of thin air? If I recall CCP RougeGÇÖs answer correctly when he was asked this at Fan Fest, once they have a fully functioning economy based on salvage, then they may consider manufacturing. I would not expect to see it at launch. But they have not ruled it out in the long term. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3361	Posted - 2014.05.16 14:34:00 - [372] - Quote Regarding: Common, Uncommon, and Rare. I am assuming that Common would be the Proto gear we use now. Would Rare be Officer Weapons? What would be an example of Uncommon? Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fenix Alexarr BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 124	Posted - 2014.05.16 14:40:00 - [373] - Quote Quote: " Negative Respec/Skillback idea" I love it. That is really the kind of thing I will be looking at for our respec system A lot of people are expressing what a terrible idea the respec is and what it means for the credibility of the system. I personally don't like the idea of removing consequences from choices for such a small cost. Quote: "ISIS UI Discussion" 100% agreed here again, ISIS is the basis of our thinking. I will share the mockups with you when they are ready If the progression system is linear, why on Earth would anyone need an ISIS-style layout for gear? Quote: "Will new players be able to see a noticeable improvement in their abilities as they apply their skill points early in their career?" Yes, but mostly they will unlock new items mostly? I suppose we need more concrete details, but this system you're describing mirrors Hawken/Mech Warrior Online almost identically. That isn't a good thing. Quote: "Are you simply collapsing 5 level skills into single nodes? Are you taking a lot of small rewarding steps and replacing them with a few huge daunting steps? Am I going to have to grind for two weeks to get 25% PG from the Engineering node when I only need 5% more PG to make my fit work?" We are basically creating 5 nodes level 1 instead of 1 node with 5 levels. It helps people understand and allow our trees to be more linear This is one thing specifically that many people are complaining about. It effectively removes skills from the game since incremental improvements come only in the (quite limited) form of new gear. Quote: "How is restricting players for newcomers and/or idiots a better idea than keeping everything free and explaining it all?" Less frustration leads to better engagement. When a system is way too complex and obscure, you have 2 solution: explain it better, make it simpler. Both solutions are not exclusive, and thatGÇÖs what we are shooting for. Again remember, as CCP_ROUGE stated it during the Keynote, Legion is a prototype, Legion is NOT Dust514, even if they share the same DNA. We have to make drastic changes to make Legion first green lit and then successful. Progression seems to be one of them. If you look at the ecosystem he talked about: Player driven economy, sandbox MMO, Immersive experience, the new Progression System we are working on makes a lot more sense. Fine, I understand your motivation. But in this process of 'making it simpler' you're removing what distinguishes dust/legion from other games. It removes my incentive to play entirely since I can go to other, more polished games that have little to no problems. "I am going through all the replies here and will make sure the feedback will help us improve our current design" Again, thank you for this effort.
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1315	Posted - 2014.05.16 14:42:00 - [374] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Regarding: Common, Uncommon, and Rare. I am assuming that Common would be the Proto gear we use now. Would Rare be Officer Weapons? What would be an example of Uncommon? I'd guess that AR it'll be Krin uncommon and Balac rare. So the market price for Thales is gonna be interesting to speculate on. Lol CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1648	Posted - 2014.05.16 15:13:00 - [375] - Quote The guys on the EVE forums seem to dislike this, too. Considering that a lot of EVE players will be trying out EVE: Legion when it comes to PC, I think this is an important thing to note. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
Samael Artico Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 124	Posted - 2014.05.16 15:33:00 - [376] - Quote I just had an idea. Take CCP Z's idea, then suggest, on the EVE Forums, to implement that same system into EVE Online. We'll use the EVE community's outrage over the idea to show CCP Z how bad he is at New Eden.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8605	Posted - 2014.05.16 15:45:00 - [377] - Quote CCP Z wrote: I am going through all the replies here and will make sure the feedback will help us improve our current design Ok. At least now I know you're trying to incorporate our feedback into your design. Again, I want to stress the importance of two things. 1. Show us your work. This will definitely help clear out any misunderstanding we have. 2. Don't force us to train up a suit we don't want just to access a weapon. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1650	Posted - 2014.05.16 15:50:00 - [378] - Quote I was listening to CCP Z's presentation when I noticed something... He's a noob. He was talking about how, when he needed a module, he would look at the skill tree to find out what skills were needed for it. This is despite the fact that in market it tells you exactly what skills you need for each module. We're leaving our future in the hands of someone who can't even understand that! I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2099	Posted - 2014.05.16 15:53:00 - [379] - Quote Immersion-breaking progression mechanics remove a lot of credibility from the game. I imagine our immortal clone mercs as pretty tough cookies: independent, capable, self-directed make-sh!t-happen operators. Working against this are several mechanics in the proposed progression scheme for Legion that significantly break immersion. 1) Role-based progression. What agency in New Eden is constraining the choices of these independent mercenary contractors? Why do they comply? What is preventing my merc from learning on his own? What leverage does this 'educational authority' have on mercs? Characters in the new progression system will feel more like schoolboys/girls than rugged individualists who make their own way. 2) Respecs. Hard universe. Consequences. Living and dying by your own choices. New Eden. Under CCP Z's system, not really - personal responsibility/pride definitely take a backseat to protecting peeps from their own mistakes. The sense of making big personal decisions when spending hard-earned sp on your progression will be gone. In the new system, the game becomes more obvious, the universe fades into an irrelevant background, at least where personal choice is concerned. 3) BPO suits. Where do the physical resources come from to build these complex, powerful pieces of battlefield equipment? Whatever my weapon costs in terms of materials, surely my suit requires more? In New Eden, everything is manufactured by players for players. What agency is providing my mercenary clone with an unlimited supply of expensive military-grade equipment? In most games, the very gamey progression system that is being proposed wouldn't really be an issue, since the entire backstory of most games is ad-hoc and arbitrary, often serving only to motivate game mechanics. But when we import that kind of gamey thinking to New Eden it generates a cognitive and aesthetic dissonance. In a gritty 'real' virtual universe, a gamey progression system stand out like a sore thumb. If the developer doesn't respect the IP, why should we expect new players to? What will 'New Eden' be for them? Some far paler and anemic thing than it is for us, methinks. New Eden is real - or is it, CCP Z? PSN: RationalSpark
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1316	Posted - 2014.05.16 15:57:00 - [380] - Quote Samael Artico wrote: I just had an idea. Take CCP Z's idea, then suggest, on the EVE Forums, to implement that same system into EVE Online. We'll use the EVE community's outrage over the idea to show CCP Z how bad he is at New Eden. I'm sure that someone would point out that using a progression system designed for a FTP game of a different genre wouldn't work on a subscription based ga....... Hang on a minute CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University

Samael Artico Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 124	Posted - 2014.05.16 16:00:00 - [381] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: Samael Artico wrote: I just had an idea. Take CCP Z's idea, then suggest, on the EVE Forums, to implement that same system into EVE Online. We'll use the EVE community's outrage over the idea to show CCP Z how bad he is at New Eden. I'm sure that someone would point out that using a progression system designed for a FTP game of a different genre wouldn't work on a subscription based ga....... Hang on a minute Are you sure about that? What makes you think that the payment model has so much to do with it?
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1650	Posted - 2014.05.16 16:02:00 - [382] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: Samael Artico wrote: I just had an idea. Take CCP Z's idea, then suggest, on the EVE Forums, to implement that same system into EVE Online. We'll use the EVE community's outrage over the idea to show CCP Z how bad he is at New Eden. I'm sure that someone would point out that using a progression system designed for a FTP game of a different genre wouldn't work on a subscription based ga....... Hang on a minute None of us play DUST 514 because it's F2P. We play it because of the depth that no one has ever seen in a shooter. CCP Z wants to take away that depth. That's taking away the most important aspect of the game. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8605	Posted - 2014.05.16 16:04:00 - [383] - Quote Fenix Alexarr wrote: Quote: " Negative Respec/Skillback idea" I love it. That is really the kind of thing I will be looking at for our respec system A lot of people are expressing what a terrible idea the respec is and what it means for the credibility of the system. I personally don't like the idea of removing consequences from choices for such a small cost. The skillback booster idea is not what you think. Here, take a look at this link that originally brought it up. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=86041&find=unread This basically allows you to remove SP from an unwanted skill book but at a pace equal to how you passively gain SP and your passive SP is disabled for the duration of the booster so you won't earn SP while removing SP. It's a fair system that appeases both the anti-respec and the pro-respec crowds. Interestingly enough, there appeared to be quite a number of pro-respec folks who don't like this idea. I like this idea. Keep in mind that I'm well known for hating respecs in general. That says something. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2100	Posted - 2014.05.16 16:06:00 - [384] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: Samael Artico wrote: I just had an idea. Take CCP Z's idea, then suggest, on the EVE Forums, to implement that same system into EVE Online. We'll use the EVE community's outrage over the idea to show CCP Z how bad he is at New Eden. I'm sure that someone would point out that using a progression system designed for a FTP game of a different genre wouldn't work on a subscription based ga....... Hang on a minute I'm here for New Eden, not the payment model. PSN: RationalSpark
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1317	Posted - 2014.05.16 16:07:00 - [385] - Quote And it has to be financed. Payment model is everything right now. The grinder don't play the music till you put the money in the monkey's cup. CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1652	Posted - 2014.05.16 16:10:00 - [386] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: And it has to be financed. Payment model is everything right now. The grinder don't play the music till you put the money in the monkey's cup. And I'm sure alienating your current playerbase and a large potential playerbase is a fantastic way to finance a game. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2101	Posted - 2014.05.16 16:12:00 - [387] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Fenix Alexarr wrote: Quote: " Negative Respec/Skillback idea" I love it. That is really the kind of thing I will be looking at for our respec system A lot of people are expressing what a terrible idea the respec is and what it means for the credibility of the system. I personally don't like the idea of removing consequences from choices for such a small cost. The skillback booster idea is not what you think. Here, take a look at this link that originally brought it up. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=86041&find=unread This basically allows you to remove SP from an unwanted skill book but at a pace equal to how you passively gain SP and your passive SP is disabled for the duration of the booster so you won't earn SP while removing SP. It's a fair system that appeases both the anti-respec and the pro-respec crowds. Interestingly enough, there appeared to be quite a number of pro-respec folks who don't like this idea. I like this idea. Keep in mind that I'm well known for hating respecs in general. That says something. I like this idea much more than what peeps think of as respecs, but also find it horribly gamey and immersion-breaking. Why is my merc 'unlearning' and at the same time unable to learn anything else passively? Was my hard drive full? Has my learning module been turned off? PSN: RationalSpark
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8605	Posted - 2014.05.16 16:13:00 - [388] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: Kevall Longstride wrote: And it has to be financed. Payment model is everything right now. The grinder don't play the music till you put the money in the monkey's cup. And I'm sure alienating your current playerbase and a large potential playerbase is a fantastic way to finance a game. Hold that thought until we see the work that CCP Z will show us. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Negris Albedo Nuevo Atlas Corporation 71	Posted - 2014.05.16 16:17:00 - [389] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: This basically allows you to remove SP from an unwanted skill book but at a pace equal to how you passively gain SP and your passive SP is disabled for the duration of the booster so you won't earn SP while removing SP. It's a fair system that appeases both the anti-respec and the pro-respec crowds. If it's at the same rate as you gain passive SP, why even use it in the first place? The only time I could see it being useful would be if there was a maximum skillpoint limit... which would be terrible.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8605	Posted - 2014.05.16 16:17:00 - [390] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Fenix Alexarr wrote: Quote: " Negative Respec/Skillback idea" I love it. That is really the kind of thing I will be looking at for our respec system A lot of people are expressing what a terrible idea the respec is and what it means for the credibility of the system. I personally don't like the idea of removing consequences from choices for such a small cost. The skillback booster idea is not what you think. Here, take a look at this link that originally brought it up. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=86041&find=unread This basically allows you to remove SP from an unwanted skill book but at a pace equal to how you passively gain SP and your passive SP is disabled for the duration of the booster so you won't earn SP while removing SP. It's a fair system that appeases both the anti-respec and the pro-respec crowds. Interestingly enough, there appeared to be quite a number of pro-respec folks who don't like this idea. I like this idea. Keep in mind that I'm well known for hating respecs in general. That says something. I like this idea much more than what peeps think of as respecs, but also find it horribly gamey and immersion-breaking. Why is my merc 'unlearning' and at the same time unable to learn anything else passively? Was my hard drive full? Has my learning module been turned off? It's less to do with immersion and more to do with discouraging FOTM chasers. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.

Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8605	Posted - 2014.05.16 16:19:00 - [391] - Quote Negris Albedo wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: This basically allows you to remove SP from an unwanted skill book but at a pace equal to how you passively gain SP and your passive SP is disabled for the duration of the booster so you won't earn SP while removing SP. It's a fair system that appeases both the anti-respec and the pro-respec crowds. If it's at the same rate as you gain passive SP, why even use it in the first place? The only time I could see it being useful would be if there was a maximum skillpoint limit... which would be terrible. It could be setup so that maybe you can unlearn faster than you gain passive SP, but not unlearn too fast or else you're back to encouraging FOTM chasers. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 510	Posted - 2014.05.16 16:19:00 - [392] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: CCP Z wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Feedback on Progression I like a lot the sidegrades idea and that is something that our Design Team is currently looking at (more or less modules, different weapon types, different abilities like being able to hack or not ...) At Fanfest you mentioned after the race choice in the skill tree there are these specializations. Can you give any examples or details about these specializations? If the commando doesn't make it into Legion, can there be an assault specialization with 2 light weapons? possibly at the cost of something else. Also, can you share some monetization ideas? The current default Assault has two light weapons. Commandos haven't really been worked on yet, but if they stick around it's likely they'll have a new role. The Black Eagle should be a scout specialization too! There will be bullets. ACR+SMG [CEO of Terror]
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2101	Posted - 2014.05.16 16:20:00 - [393] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: Kevall Longstride wrote: And it has to be financed. Payment model is everything right now. The grinder don't play the music till you put the money in the monkey's cup. And I'm sure alienating your current playerbase and a large potential playerbase is a fantastic way to finance a game. Hold that thought until we see the work that CCP Z will show us. My intuition says that the reason CCP Z is so inflexible on his progression system is because it's intimately tied to his monetization program. This is not so much marketing influencing game design as marketing in full control of game design. Still hoping for the best, tho i don't see a lot of respect for New Eden or her citizens in what we've seen so far. Maybe Rouge/Z can pull a miracle out of their hats. PSN: RationalSpark
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2101	Posted - 2014.05.16 16:21:00 - [394] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Vrain Matari wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Fenix Alexarr wrote: Quote: " Negative Respec/Skillback idea" I love it. That is really the kind of thing I will be looking at for our respec system A lot of people are expressing what a terrible idea the respec is and what it means for the credibility of the system. I personally don't like the idea of removing consequences from choices for such a small cost. The skillback booster idea is not what you think. Here, take a look at this link that originally brought it up. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=86041&find=unread This basically allows you to remove SP from an unwanted skill book but at a pace equal to how you passively gain SP and your passive SP is disabled for the duration of the booster so you won't earn SP while removing SP. It's a fair system that appeases both the anti-respec and the pro-respec crowds. Interestingly enough, there appeared to be quite a number of pro-respec folks who don't like this idea. I like this idea. Keep in mind that I'm well known for hating respecs in general. That says something. I like this idea much more than what peeps think of as respecs, but also find it horribly gamey and immersion-breaking. Why is my merc 'unlearning' and at the same time unable to learn anything else passively? Was my hard drive full? Has my learning module been turned off? It's less to do with immersion and more to do with discouraging FOTM chasers. Good game design doesn't break immersion, regardless of the motivation. PSN: RationalSpark
Samael Artico Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 125	Posted - 2014.05.16 16:25:00 - [395] - Quote He must be trying to derive a substantial amount of income from respecs. That's the only reason I can think of to restrict choice in a game where choice is so heavily emphasized.
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 119	Posted - 2014.05.16 16:39:00 - [396] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Vrain Matari wrote: ...[stuff about respecs]... It's less to do with immersion and more to do with discouraging FOTM chasers. The correct remedy for discouraging FOTM chasers, is not to create FOTM in the first place. To the extent CCP re-balances items, changing what we had previously chosen, our choices are rendered meaningless. Respecs are an absolutely necessary evil, if CCP is going to do any re-balancing of items. They are necessary to avoid the greater evil of treating their customers like the victims of a bait and switch scam. Arguing that customers should be stuck with a choice they didn't make (a differently balanced version of their prior choice) is an argument against people enduring the consequences of their own choices, and in favor of making people endure the consequences of someone else's choice. The entire "no respecs bc choices should have consequences" argument is thoroughly sloppy.
Captain Crutches Nexus Marines 122	Posted - 2014.05.16 16:52:00 - [397] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Vrain Matari wrote: ...[stuff about respecs]... It's less to do with immersion and more to do with discouraging FOTM chasers. The correct remedy for discouraging FOTM chasers, is not to create FOTM in the first place. To the extent CCP re-balances items, changing what we had previously chosen, our choices are rendered meaningless. Respecs are an absolutely necessary evil, if CCP is going to do any re-balancing of items. They are necessary to avoid the greater evil of treating their customers like the victims of a bait and switch scam. Arguing that customers should be stuck with a choice they didn't make (a differently balanced version of their prior choice) is an argument against people enduring the consequences of their own choices, and in favor of making people endure the consequences of someone else's choice. The entire "no respecs bc choices should have consequences" argument is thoroughly sloppy. I invite you to head over to the Eve forums and ask for a refund if your Drones SP in light of the major drone changes coming in Kronos. I'm sure the community there will be very enthusiastic in their response. Legion is absolutely the right move for the future of Dust. How CCP went about revealing it is the biggest problem.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 2929	Posted - 2014.05.16 16:58:00 - [398] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Fenix Alexarr wrote: Quote: " Negative Respec/Skillback idea" I love it. That is really the kind of thing I will be looking at for our respec system A lot of people are expressing what a terrible idea the respec is and what it means for the credibility of the system. I personally don't like the idea of removing consequences from choices for such a small cost. The skillback booster idea is not what you think. Here, take a look at this link that originally brought it up. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=86041&find=unread This basically allows you to remove SP from an unwanted skill book but at a pace equal to how you passively gain SP and your passive SP is disabled for the duration of the booster so you won't earn SP while removing SP. It's a fair system that appeases both the anti-respec and the pro-respec crowds. Interestingly enough, there appeared to be quite a number of pro-respec folks who don't like this idea. I like this idea. Keep in mind that I'm well known for hating respecs in general. That says something. At the same rate though? Then what is the point? It would be literally useless except to satisfy a couple people's OCD. It would have to be faster than accumulating regular SP or otherwise it would be completely pointless.
Sarus Rambo Direct Action Resources 156	Posted - 2014.05.16 17:04:00 - [399] - Quote Giant post incoming: The progression system described sounds pretty terrible honestly. I've seen it described perfectly as a "WoW" like skill tree. Yes this is stupid easy to understand for new people, but it lacks any sort of complexity and depth. Does EvE box you into only using a certain weapon for a certain ship? No. You can fly a Battleship with Reps and small turrets if you want. Progression should be up to the player, and they should make their own decisions on what to be, you shouldn't make it for them. You need to take many more queues from EvE, not move farther away from it. My vision: Suits: Two tiers of suits per class of suit, mirroring Eves tech 1 and 2 system. Like in Eve, Tech 2 would be about 2x more expensive, and give the player advanced capabilities in some areas, while stifling the other areas. Basically turning the dial up on the strengths and weaknesses of the tech 1 suit itself. You pay for the greater strength in the area you excel, but still have to pay a whole lot more for it. The strength of the tech 2 suit and its cost would be directly proportional to the advantage it gives the player. If a tech 2 suit beats a equally skilled player in a basic suit 5/1 times, it needs to be 5 times the cost. That's ISK balance. Battles: This lobby stuff is stupid. The original idea that was pitched oh so many years ago was to have a large maps. You even see how some maps are connected. These would be giant districts that people connect to battle in and leave once they are over, or even when they aren't over. Pushing forward and back on a much larger scale, yet still small enough to make a difference later. This needs to be realized, and a matchmaking system isn't really the way to go. Progression should be able getting cool stuff that isn't just better then the stuff a noob gets initially, it should be about flavor and choice. Weapons + Gear: All this stuff needs to matter and be relevant. There should be no such thing as a direct upgrade, and modules need to be balanced based on effective value. Gear should have the same tech 1 and 2 system as suits, with tech 2 gear having the same ratio of advantages vs drawbacks as tech 1 gear. NPC interaction: This ties into the Battlefield cleanup interaction. Once a district is taken, there should be a period of time that people can go and salvage and fight NPC drones to get salvage from the previous battle. There also should be specific drone controlled planets always open for NPC interaction and player interaction. Passive ISK Generation: Ive heard talk of industry in Dust for a long time. I dont think it really fits. If you want to build stuff, play EvE. Game item production already exists in a whole level of complexity there. The drone cleanup idea introduces a passive generation of ISK however. Instead of going to a planet, you should be able to buy drones and set them up to be sent to the planets of your choosing once a battle their has been completed. Your drones would be some of the drones, perhaps more powerful versions of the drones, people fight in their PVE salvaging operations. It would be a whole new dimension of PVE, considering you are still be destroying something player owned. Player market: Tie in with EvE on a small scale. Eve players should be able to sell Mercs all their gear. all production of gear should be produced EvE manufacturing side, then sold to Mercs. Mercs should only have access to this gear, and should be able to also sell this on an open market to other Dust Mercs TL;DR: Make this game more like first person EvE with guns, and not first person WoW with guns. This sums up 100% of the forum posts after Fanfest 2014.
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 119	Posted - 2014.05.16 17:11:00 - [400] - Quote Captain Crutches wrote: I invite you to head over to the Eve forums and ask for a refund if your Drones SP in light of the major drone changes coming in Kronos. I'm sure the community there will be very enthusiastic in their response. Did you imagine that as a counterpoint to something I'd written? You just gave an example of re-balancing diminishing the importance of my choices, and subjecting me to the consequences of someone else's choice. Thanks for supporting what I'd written, by providing an apt example of what's wrong with the "no respecs bc choices should have consequences" argument. That argument is just as sloppy here, as it is in Eve Online. There are all sorts of arguments for and against respecs. "Bc choices should have consequences" isn't a good one.

Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 1985	Posted - 2014.05.16 17:46:00 - [401] - Quote I've heard that it will not be done, but I really think that you should just copy pasta the Eve Skills setup for Legion. IMHO, it is a mistake to do otherwise. I am not saying that It should be an exact mirror, just that it is similar enough in Dust now and it should stay this way for Legion. If anything, you should make it more like Eve (include Leadership, Social and Trade skill trees). Arzadu Akbar Motherfuckers!!!! Closed Beta Bittervet Bomber
Sarus Rambo Direct Action Resources 157	Posted - 2014.05.16 17:49:00 - [402] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: I've heard that it will not be done, but I really think that you should just copy pasta the Eve Skills setup for Legion. IMHO, it is a mistake to do otherwise. I am not saying that It should be an exact mirror, just that it is similar enough in Dust now and it should stay this way for Legion. If anything, you should make it more like Eve (include Leadership, Social and Trade skill trees). I agree with this. I think since the number scales we are using create a large disparity between new and old players, like for example 25% more health or damage, all these values need to be severely reduce. I don't care if someone has something unlocked that I don't have. I don't like when someone who is clearly less skilled then wins a fight because they are 50% more powerful than me due to skill points. This sums up 100% of the forum posts after Fanfest 2014.
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1317	Posted - 2014.05.16 17:57:00 - [403] - Quote There's a good article here about progression in a successful FTP game. Regardless of the discussion here, its a good read. CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Unit-775 Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 62	Posted - 2014.05.16 18:03:00 - [404] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: Kevall Longstride wrote: And it has to be financed. Payment model is everything right now. The grinder don't play the music till you put the money in the monkey's cup. And I'm sure alienating your current playerbase and a large potential playerbase is a fantastic way to finance a game. Hold that thought until we see the work that CCP Z will show us. My intuition says that the reason CCP Z is so inflexible on his progression system is because it's intimately tied to his monetization program. This is not so much marketing influencing game design as marketing in full control of game design. Still hoping for the best, tho i don't see a lot of respect for New Eden or her citizens in what we've seen so far. Maybe Rouge/Z can pull a miracle out of their hats. waiting for : we have to pay for unlocking skill nodes or trees
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 1986	Posted - 2014.05.16 18:15:00 - [405] - Quote Sarus Rambo wrote: Giant post incoming: The progression system described sounds pretty terrible honestly. I've seen it described perfectly as a "WoW" like skill tree. Yes this is stupid easy to understand for new people, but it lacks any sort of complexity and depth. Does EvE box you into only using a certain weapon for a certain ship? No. You can fly a Battleship with Reps and small turrets if you want. Progression should be up to the player, and they should make their own decisions on what to be, you shouldn't make it for them. You need to take many more queues from EvE, not move farther away from it. My vision: Suits: Two tiers of suits per class of suit, mirroring Eves tech 1 and 2 system. Like in Eve, Tech 2 would be about 2x more expensive, and give the player advanced capabilities in some areas, while stifling the other areas. Basically turning the dial up on the strengths and weaknesses of the tech 1 suit itself. You pay for the greater strength in the area you excel, but still have to pay a whole lot more for it, and also increase the risk with the weaknesses involved. The strength of the tech 2 suit and its cost would be directly proportional to the advantage it gives the player. If a tech 2 suit beats a equally skilled player in a basic suit 5/1 times, it needs to be 5 times the cost. That's ISK balance. Battles: This lobby stuff is stupid. The original idea that was pitched oh so many years ago was to have very large maps. You even see how some maps are connected now. These would be giant districts that people connect to battle in and leave once they are over, or even when they aren't over. Pushing forward and back on a much larger scale inside a map, somewhat longer battle times, yet still small enough not to be too ridiculous. These would make a difference on the planet as a whole. This needs to be realized, and the continuation of a matchmaking system isn't really the way to go. Progression should be about getting cool stuff that isn't just better then the stuff a noob gets initially, it should be about flavor and choice. Weapons + Gear: All this stuff needs to matter and be relevant, not just HP gear. There should be no such thing as a direct upgrade, and modules need to be balanced based on effective value. Gear should have the same tech 1 and 2 system as suits, with tech 2 gear having the same ratio of advantages vs drawbacks as tech 1 gear. NPC interaction: This ties into the Battlefield cleanup interaction. Once a district is taken, there should be a period of time that people can go and salvage and fight NPC drones to get salvage from the previous battle. There also should be specific drone controlled planets always open for NPC interaction and player interaction. Passive ISK Generation: I've heard talk of industry in Dust for a long time. I don't think it really fits. If you want to build stuff, play EvE. Game item production already exists in a whole level of immense complexity there. The drone cleanup idea introduces a faucet for passive generation of ISK however. Instead of going to a planet, you should be able to buy drones and set them up to be sent to the planets of your choosing once a battle there has been completed. Your drones would be some of the drones (perhaps more powerful versions of the drones) people fight in their PVE salvaging operations. It would be a whole new dimension of PVE, considering you are still be destroying something player owned. Obviously the amount of ISK would be very small in comparison to a player who goes to the planet themselves. Player market: Tie in with EvE on a small scale. EvE players should be able to sell Mercs all their gear. All production of gear should be produced EvE manufacturing side, then sold to Mercs. Mercs should only have access to this gear, and should be able to also sell this on an open market to other Dust Mercs TL;DR: Make this game more like first person EvE with guns, and not first person WoW with guns. Only part of this post that I disagree with is the part about PIG (Passive Isk Generation). There should be 0 PIG, all income generation should be Active. Give all players the ability to Actively generate Isk and then allow Alliances/Corps to tax their membership. IMHO, Alliance tax should be drawn from the Taxes that a Corp generates. Ex: My corporation has a tax rate of 12.5%, say that my Alliance has a 10% tax rate. If my Corp makes 12.5k in tax revenue from me then my Alliance should get 10% of that giving them 1250 Isk and leaving my corp with 11250 Isk. Arzadu Akbar Motherfuckers!!!! Closed Beta Bittervet Bomber
Cyrius Li-Moody 0uter.Heaven 5342	Posted - 2014.05.16 18:47:00 - [406] - Quote Days later and I still don't like the concept of this proposed progression system for pretty much every reason people have posted. I'm definitely getting the classic CCP Dust Development vibe of "we're going to do what we want on this with the illusion of feedback." The current skill system we have works to a certain extent but has it's obvious problems. 1/3/5 is bad. Items should be unlocked at 1 and every point after should provide a bonus. Why is this difficult? The idea that "there's too much choice" is simply silly. Yes, at first there is a bit too much choice but this can be remedied by a certification system similar to eve's. It can give you an idea of a "vanilla" role and you can go from there. You guys seem so ridiculously deadset on the idea that your players are idiots and it's insulting. Part of the biggest problem of NPE is that they don't know where to put their SP to make a decent build and also that weapons are incredibly imbalanced. We want depth and customization, not progression on rails until you hit end game. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
Sarus Rambo Direct Action Resources 157	Posted - 2014.05.16 19:09:00 - [407] - Quote Unit-775 wrote: waiting for : we have to pay for unlocking skill nodes or trees Well if this happened then no one would play the game honestly. Holding parts of a game hostage is not good marketing. and only pisses people off. Single use vanity items are really where its at. TF2 is a great example of a free to play game that doesn't block content, and makes ridiculous money on vanity items and pay to not wait items. TOR is a great example of how not to do free to play, barring people from lots of features until they pony up the dough. These are both better than paying to win schemes though. This sums up 100% of the forum posts after Fanfest 2014.
Captain Crutches Nexus Marines 123	Posted - 2014.05.16 19:14:00 - [408] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: You guys seem so ridiculously deadset on the idea that your players are idiots and it's insulting. Part of the biggest problem of NPE is that they don't know where to put their SP to make a decent build and also that weapons are incredibly imbalanced. So much this. The problem isn't that your players are stupid, the problem is that your NPE is ****. Even the "smartest" gamers are going to have trouble picking up Dust's complex system without some training/tutorials, and that's not a bad thing, it just means you need to actually put in some training/tutorials! A lot of us here have the advantage of having played Eve before Dust arrived, so we were able to pick it up fairly easily because of how similar it was, and I think that's something you should aim for - like I said earlier, it will help both with immersion and with players transitioning from one game to the other. But for someone who's never played anything with the depth and choice capability of the New Eden universe, it's going to be hard to get at first - and that's okay! Take the time to make a good NPE, explain the progression system to an inexperienced player, and you will be rewarded with an informed, intelligent playerbase worthy of New Eden - not the respec-happy, confined-role WoW/CoD crowd you seem to be trying to attract. Legion is absolutely the right move for the future of Dust. How CCP went about revealing it is the biggest problem.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8607	Posted - 2014.05.16 19:16:00 - [409] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: Sarus Rambo wrote: Passive ISK Generation: I've heard talk of industry in Dust for a long time. I don't think it really fits. If you want to build stuff, play EvE. Game item production already exists in a whole level of immense complexity there. The drone cleanup idea introduces a faucet for passive generation of ISK however. Instead of going to a planet, you should be able to buy drones and set them up to be sent to the planets of your choosing once a battle there has been completed. Your drones would be some of the drones (perhaps more powerful versions of the drones) people fight in their PVE salvaging operations. It would be a whole new dimension of PVE, considering you are still be destroying something player owned. Obviously the amount of ISK would be very small in comparison to a player who goes to the planet themselves. Only part of this post that I disagree with is the part about PIG (Passive Isk Generation). There should be 0 PIG, all income generation should be Active. Give all players the ability to Actively generate Isk and then allow Alliances/Corps to tax their membership. IMHO, Alliance tax should be drawn from the Taxes that a Corp generates. Ex: My corporation has a tax rate of 12.5%, say that my Alliance has a 10% tax rate. If my Corp makes 12.5k in tax revenue from me then my Alliance should get 10% of that giving them 1250 Isk and leaving my corp with 11250 Isk. Agreed. There is no game that I can think of today that gives you passive income generation. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Sarus Rambo Direct Action Resources 157	Posted - 2014.05.16 19:19:00 - [410] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: Only part of this post that I disagree with is the part about PIG (Passive Isk Generation). There should be 0 PIG, all income generation should be Active. You have a lot of people looking for some sort of manufacturing or something. I'm really not against passive ISK as long as the ISK per hour is terrible. It should be equivalent to like 1 or 2 game ISK payouts per day. Say it takes 12 hours for a drone to complete its salvage run, and you only have the "bandwidth" to have 2 drones working at once. There are various ways to limit it, and I think it would be very satisfying to kill someone else's drone that they payed for and took the time to send to a specific planet (It should obviously let you know when you did this). Being able to open it up to fitting the drones you send to would be really cool. maybe you want one that sucks at defending itself but makes more money. Or one that is a beast but makes less money. That would be cool. Maken Tosch wrote: Agreed. There is no game that I can think of today that gives you passive income generation. EvE Online? If Dust or Legion ever got a player market, you would see passive income generation there as well. This sums up 100% of the forum posts after Fanfest 2014.

XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws Proficiency V. 1328	Posted - 2014.05.16 19:22:00 - [411] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Days later and I still don't like the concept of this proposed progression system for pretty much every reason people have posted. I'm definitely getting the classic CCP Dust Development vibe of "we're going to do what we want on this with the illusion of feedback." The current skill system we have works to a certain extent but has it's obvious problems. 1/3/5 is bad. Items should be unlocked at 1 and every point after should provide a bonus. Why is this difficult? The idea that "there's too much choice" is simply silly. Yes, at first there is a bit too much choice but this can be remedied by a certification system similar to eve's. It can give you an idea of a "vanilla" role and you can go from there. You guys seem so ridiculously deadset on the idea that your players are idiots and it's insulting. Part of the biggest problem of NPE is that they don't know where to put their SP to make a decent build and also that weapons are incredibly imbalanced. We want depth and customization, not progression on rails until you hit end game. Stop trying to reinvent the progression and just fix the problems the current system has and make sure weapons and suits are balanced properly. This... Plasma Cannon Advocate Dust 514 Survivor
Sarus Rambo Direct Action Resources 157	Posted - 2014.05.16 19:26:00 - [412] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: You guys seem so ridiculously deadset on the idea that your players are idiots and it's insulting. Part of the biggest problem of NPE is that they don't know where to put their SP to make a decent build and also that weapons are incredibly imbalanced. This is really the true problem with the current progression. That and skills just for the sake of skills. Each one should do something other then unlock more stuff. Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: We want depth and customization, not progression on rails until you hit end game. Stop trying to reinvent the progression and just fix the problems the current system has and make sure weapons and suits are balanced properly. Exactly. This sums up 100% of the forum posts after Fanfest 2014.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8607	Posted - 2014.05.16 19:27:00 - [413] - Quote Sarus Rambo wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: Only part of this post that I disagree with is the part about PIG (Passive Isk Generation). There should be 0 PIG, all income generation should be Active. You have a lot of people looking for some sort of manufacturing or something. I'm really not against passive ISK as long as the ISK per hour is terrible. It should be equivalent to like 1 or 2 game ISK payouts per day. Say it takes 12 hours for a drone to complete its salvage run, and you only have the "bandwidth" to have 2 drones working at once. There are various ways to limit it, and I think it would be very satisfying to kill someone else's drone that they payed for and took the time to send to a specific planet (It should obviously let you know when you did this). Being able to open it up to fitting the drones you send to would be really cool. maybe you want one that sucks at defending itself but makes more money. Or one that is a beast but makes less money. That would be cool. Maken Tosch wrote: Agreed. There is no game that I can think of today that gives you passive income generation. EvE Online? If Dust or Legion ever got a player market, you would see passive income generation there as well. LOL. Corp taxes, Planetary Interaction, POCO taxes (assuming you control the POCO), and tycoon-level market trading hardly qualify as passive income generation. All of them require player effort in some form in addition to maintaining that effort. I have been playing Eve Online since 2008 and I still do. There is absolutely no passive income generation in Eve in the sense that you do nothing to earn it. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Sarus Rambo Direct Action Resources 158	Posted - 2014.05.16 19:30:00 - [414] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Corp taxes, Planetary Interaction, POCO taxes (assuming you control the POCO), and tycoon-level market trading hardly qualify as passive income generation. All of them require player effort in some form in addition to maintaining that effort. I have been playing Eve Online since 2008 and I still do. There is absolutely no passive income generation in Eve in the sense that you do nothing to earn it. Ok, then read my original post. I basically state you need to setup everything, send drones out to get you salvage, and also putting them at risk of being destroying by players. Also stated the possibility to add fitting options to these drones to give someone more interaction and choice. If we are defining passive income as doing nothing for ISK, how is this passive then? (My definition would be you do something in game to setup something, leave, come back to ISK). This sums up 100% of the forum posts after Fanfest 2014.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8607	Posted - 2014.05.16 19:36:00 - [415] - Quote Sarus Rambo wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Corp taxes, Planetary Interaction, POCO taxes (assuming you control the POCO), and tycoon-level market trading hardly qualify as passive income generation. All of them require player effort in some form in addition to maintaining that effort. I have been playing Eve Online since 2008 and I still do. There is absolutely no passive income generation in Eve in the sense that you do nothing to earn it. Ok, then read my original post. I basically state you need to setup everything, send drones out to get you salvage, and also putting them at risk of being destroying by players. Also stated the possibility to add fitting options to these drones to give someone more interaction and choice. If we are defining passive income as doing nothing for ISK, how is this passive then? (My definition would be you do something in game to setup something, leave, come back to ISK). In that case, it should be fine as long as you have to put in the effort (not just initially but every now and then). I guess I misread it originally. Sorry about that. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Sarus Rambo Direct Action Resources 158	Posted - 2014.05.16 19:46:00 - [416] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: In that case, it should be fine as long as you have to put in the effort (not just initially but every now and then). I guess I misread it originally. Sorry about that. Lol ok, no problem. I think that idea is very EvE like. Very Risk vs Reward oriented, with plenty of choice thrown in there. This sums up 100% of the forum posts after Fanfest 2014.
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2305	Posted - 2014.05.16 19:48:00 - [417] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Days later and I still don't like the concept of this proposed progression system for pretty much every reason people have posted. I'm definitely getting the classic CCP Dust Development vibe of "we're going to do what we want on this with the illusion of feedback." The current skill system we have works to a certain extent but has it's obvious problems. 1/3/5 is bad. Items should be unlocked at 1 and every point after should provide a bonus. Why is this difficult? The idea that "there's too much choice" is simply silly. Yes, at first there is a bit too much choice but this can be remedied by a certification system similar to eve's. It can give you an idea of a "vanilla" role and you can go from there. You guys seem so ridiculously deadset on the idea that your players are idiots and it's insulting. Part of the biggest problem of NPE is that they don't know where to put their SP to make a decent build and also that weapons are incredibly imbalanced. We want depth and customization, not progression on rails until you hit end game. Stop trying to reinvent the progression and just fix the problems the current system has and make sure weapons and suits are balanced properly. You nailed my post in a much better way. +1 click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Cyrus Militani Leon Conglomerate 63	Posted - 2014.05.16 19:49:00 - [418] - Quote I am more disgusted by the idea of a skill progression system, especially given what has been discussed so far. The current DUST 514 skill progression system is "ok". The proposed system is just terrible. What makes DUST great is the economic aspect. The skill progression system, for me, is "just there", and more of an annoyance. Lets just toss out the idea of a skill progression system and get as far away from an MMO as possible. Here is my proposal for that: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=162593 If you do that there will be no need for respecs. You either have the money to buy the equipment or you don't. If you blow your ISK on expensive equipment it should hurt.
Iskandar Zul Karnain Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 2648	Posted - 2014.05.16 19:50:00 - [419] - Quote The more I read through this thread the more I become fearful that CCP Z is going to flatten Dust and dumb everything down for the sake of a few idiots who couldn't figure out how to use the skill tree. I understand that improving the NPE is critical. I do not believe that in order to improve the NPE that we need to lobotomize DUST. Would it be possible to implement an open New Eden friendly skill tree with an optional 'safety' for new players, whereby their SP choices are guided in a certain direction(s) up unto the point at which the player decides he or she is competent enough to make informed SP decision on their own? Essentially we could superficially create a class system but still allow those willing to spend their SP as they see fit. Anyone have any thoughts on a system like this?
Fenix Alexarr BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 127	Posted - 2014.05.16 20:03:00 - [420] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Days later and I still don't like the concept of this proposed progression system for pretty much every reason people have posted. I'm definitely getting the classic CCP Dust Development vibe of "we're going to do what we want on this with the illusion of feedback." The current skill system we have works to a certain extent but has it's obvious problems. 1/3/5 is bad. Items should be unlocked at 1 and every point after should provide a bonus. Why is this difficult? The idea that "there's too much choice" is simply silly. Yes, at first there is a bit too much choice but this can be remedied by a certification system similar to eve's. It can give you an idea of a "vanilla" role and you can go from there. You guys seem so ridiculously deadset on the idea that your players are idiots and it's insulting. Part of the biggest problem of NPE is that they don't know where to put their SP to make a decent build and also that weapons are incredibly imbalanced. We want depth and customization, not progression on rails until you hit end game. Stop trying to reinvent the progression and just fix the problems the current system has and make sure weapons and suits are balanced properly. I didn't want to sound this harsh, but you've hit the nail on the head. I was hoping this wasn't an 'FYI feedback' thread. But more and more, I think the Devs are so set on this rotten core of a system that there's no chance of avoiding this train wreck. Others might buy into this new system. I won't.

Cyrius Li-Moody 0uter.Heaven 5351	Posted - 2014.05.16 20:06:00 - [421] - Quote Iskandar Zul Karnain wrote: The more I read through this thread the more I become fearful that CCP Z is going to flatten Dust and dumb everything down for the sake of a few idiots who couldn't figure out how to use the skill tree. I understand that improving the NPE is critical. I do not believe that in order to improve the NPE that we need to lobotomize DUST. Would it be possible to implement an open New Eden friendly skill tree with an optional 'safety' for new players, whereby their SP choices are guided in a certain direction(s) up unto the point at which the player decides he or she is competent enough to make informed SP decision on their own? Essentially we could superficially create a class system but still allow those willing to spend their SP as they see fit. Anyone have any thoughts on a system like this? This can be done through user interface rather than forcing a player through a progression on rails. Eve has a certification system (ui) that shows you the skills needed to get "certified" in something. There you can see what it takes to fill a vanilla role. So you could have our current node based view, the list view, and a certification view. Lets say for example you really want to train into scout but dont know what to train. An experienced player will know that he needs to train precision, dampening, range, biotics. He would be able to find these either as nodes on a skill tree or in the skill list. For a newer player they could refer to the certification interface which has a more linear representation of what you need for a role. For example: Infiltrator Scout Certification Minmatar Scout Dropsuits 3 --> Precision 3 --> Dampening 5 --> Biotics 3 --> Cloak Field 3 Rather than changing an ENTIRE system you just add a user interface. You change the way the user sees the information rather than hard locking them to a linear path. Also this adds a trophy like system to the game through certification which is good. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2306	Posted - 2014.05.16 20:07:00 - [422] - Quote Iskandar Zul Karnain wrote: The more I read through this thread the more I become fearful that CCP Z is going to flatten Dust and dumb everything down for the sake of a few idiots who couldn't figure out how to use the skill tree. I understand that improving the NPE is critical. I do not believe that in order to improve the NPE that we need to lobotomize DUST. Would it be possible to implement an open New Eden friendly skill tree with an optional 'safety' for new players, whereby their SP choices are guided in a certain direction(s) up unto the point at which the player decides he or she is competent enough to make informed SP decision on their own? Essentially we could superficially create a class system but still allow those willing to spend their SP as they see fit. Anyone have any thoughts on a system like this? Option 1: Get the regular trees Option 2: Get a system designed off of ISIS (like the one he's trying to force on us, but without the academy suits and other useless **** like that), and make the player go down that path as many times as he/she wants, and even change to another path (skills stay though, and already unlocked skills would stay unlocked), and could also turn it off whenever they want. That good Isk? click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Starfire Revo DUST University Ivy League 249	Posted - 2014.05.16 20:13:00 - [423] - Quote Iskandar Zul Karnain wrote: Would it be possible to implement an open New Eden friendly skill tree with an optional 'safety' for new players, whereby their SP choices are guided in a certain direction(s) up unto the point at which the player decides he or she is competent enough to make informed SP decision on their own? Essentially we could superficially create a class system but still allow those willing to spend their SP as they see fit. Anyone have any thoughts on a system like this? I feel like creating simple and advanced modes for the skills tree would work. The simple mode would be more in line with what Z is describing, so new players don't get overwhelmed. The advanced mode would allow people who (think they) know what they're doing to progress their character in a way that makes sense. Diablo 3 did something similar to this with it's skill system and it was one of the few good design decisions that game made. I make videos of EVE and Dust http://www.youtube.com/mrgimbleb I write about EVE and Dust http://mrgimbleb.blogspot.com
Sarus Rambo Direct Action Resources 158	Posted - 2014.05.16 20:20:00 - [424] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Rather than changing an ENTIRE system you just add a user interface. You change the way the user sees the information rather than hard locking them to a linear path. Also this adds a trophy like system to the game through certification which is good. CCP, this is important. Removing choice because its "scary" is simply silly. You need to better guide people in making informed decisions, like the ISIS tree inside EvE. What I believe the concern would be in this system is defined roles. This is a major problem in Dust, as you see scouts with more health then assaults, and Heavies with rail rifles. How do you define the role of a suit when there is no on rails progression tree? My answer would be to look at exactly how EvE online does this. CCP has done an amazing job at making almost everything in EvE relevant and useful. What needs to happen is to keep the weird options like brick tanking a scout, or carrying a rail rifle sentinel, but to make them really dumb options. Incentive roles without boxing them in. There is a ton of stuff messed up about Dust for the simple reason that there is no proper incentives in place. We have seen a small step in the right direction with 1.8, but there really needs to be a large overhaul which probably wont happen in Dust. "Teach a man to fish, and feed him for life. Shove fish down a mans throat for life, and he will grow to resent you." This sums up 100% of the forum posts after Fanfest 2014.
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1318	Posted - 2014.05.16 20:27:00 - [425] - Quote It's not for the sake of a few idiots as some as stated, it's for quite a lot of idiots (your terminology there). They've researched and identified with their own numbers short comings in the current system, both in the progression system and the NPE. Questioning the findings of the research because it happens to not agree with your view isn't going to alter the Dev teams trust in its findings either. Besides, I think we can all agree, that nearly everyone on this thread, defending Z or not has highlighted shortcomings in the current system. Very unusually, Z has opened this up to public discussion a lot earlier than they normally would. And he has answered a lot questions already, liked a number of your suggestions, clarified a number points of confusion and explained his thinking on others. Insulting him or questioning his competence is up to you. If I want someone to bend to my way of thinking, I've found that calling them names rarely works. He's still working on it. Its a work in progress. Please consider that. CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2106	Posted - 2014.05.16 20:31:00 - [426] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Sarus Rambo wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Corp taxes, Planetary Interaction, POCO taxes (assuming you control the POCO), and tycoon-level market trading hardly qualify as passive income generation. All of them require player effort in some form in addition to maintaining that effort. I have been playing Eve Online since 2008 and I still do. There is absolutely no passive income generation in Eve in the sense that you do nothing to earn it. Ok, then read my original post. I basically state you need to setup everything, send drones out to get you salvage, and also putting them at risk of being destroying by players. Also stated the possibility to add fitting options to these drones to give someone more interaction and choice. If we are defining passive income as doing nothing for ISK, how is this passive then? (My definition would be you do something in game to setup something, leave, come back to ISK). In that case, it should be fine as long as you have to put in the effort (not just initially but every now and then). I guess I misread it originally. Sorry about that. Even then i have my reservations. Don't forget research agents and datacores. i've had 5 lvl 4 research agents running for years. It required effort to get them, and risk, iirc the boundless station is close to Rancer. But it was a one-time effort almost a decade ago. PSN: RationalSpark
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 1987	Posted - 2014.05.16 20:32:00 - [427] - Quote Sarus Rambo wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: In that case, it should be fine as long as you have to put in the effort (not just initially but every now and then). I guess I misread it originally. Sorry about that. Lol ok, no problem. I think that idea is very EvE like. Very Risk vs Reward oriented, with plenty of choice thrown in there. Also, nothing should be pure Wallet ticks. It should give you a commodity which provides Isk through its sale on the player market. Arzadu Akbar Motherfuckers!!!! Closed Beta Bittervet Bomber
Sarus Rambo Direct Action Resources 159	Posted - 2014.05.16 20:40:00 - [428] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: Sarus Rambo wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: In that case, it should be fine as long as you have to put in the effort (not just initially but every now and then). I guess I misread it originally. Sorry about that. Lol ok, no problem. I think that idea is very EvE like. Very Risk vs Reward oriented, with plenty of choice thrown in there. Also, nothing should be pure Wallet ticks. It should give you a commodity which provides Isk through its sale on the player market. Well the drones would basically salvage. The drones aren't salvaging ISK out in a battlefield. This sums up 100% of the forum posts after Fanfest 2014.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 13409	Posted - 2014.05.16 21:28:00 - [429] - Quote [quote=CCP Logibro] The current default Assault has two light weapons. Commandos haven't really been worked on yet, but if they stick around it's likely they'll have a new role.[/quote This is excellent. This means four well defined classes, each with a reason to pick them depending on what you want. They all have their own neat feature. I love it. Bravo! You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Cyrus Militani Leon Conglomerate 68	Posted - 2014.05.16 22:26:00 - [430] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: The current default Assault has two light weapons. Commandos haven't really been worked on yet, but if they stick around it's likely they'll have a new role. Oooooooo. That might actually might make me want to use Assault again.

Vell0cet Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad. 2043	Posted - 2014.05.16 22:39:00 - [431] - Quote IGÇÖve created a proposal for an alternative progression system with some mockup interfaces and a mostly complete skill tree diagram. Here is the thread. I go into more detail there. IGÇÖd love to hear feedback--especially from CCP Z if you have the time to take a look. Images: Skill Tree Interface Mockup GÇ£ISISGÇ¥ Analog Mockup Skill Tree Diagram Best PvE idea ever!
Captain Crutches Nexus Marines 125	Posted - 2014.05.16 23:12:00 - [432] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: IGÇÖve created a proposal for an alternative progression system with some mockup interfaces and a mostly complete skill tree diagram. Here is the thread. I go into more detail there. IGÇÖd love to hear feedback--especially from CCP Z if you have the time to take a look. Images: Skill Tree Interface Mockup GÇ£ISISGÇ¥ Analog Mockup Skill Tree Diagram Nice. Skill tree is way TL;DR and the others obviously need a lot of polish/work from CCP UI dudes, but the concept is sound and I agree that such things should be implemented. Legion is absolutely the right move for the future of Dust. How CCP went about revealing it is the biggest problem.
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 1987	Posted - 2014.05.17 00:16:00 - [433] - Quote My thoughts on how the Eve:Legion Progression should look. Firstly, it should be mainly Passive SP gain with the Passive SP filling a queued skill (just like Eve). Active SP gain should be present, though not in the same fashion as we are currently accustomed to. I strongly believe that we'd best be served by a "Practice makes Perfect" style of Active SP generation. We should be rewarded for using the things we use by getting better at using them. This would reward new players with the carrot of SP for simply being in a match and being active. This would also prevent vets from skilling up like a runaway train without diversification. I know that there are those who will decry this method, though I honestly believe that it is the best route for Legion to take. It allows rookies to have the illusion of accelerated SP gain while discouraging vets from instantly achieving Prof 5 by roflstomping everything with a tried and true fit. After a point, we stop growing taller and we start growing wider, it makes no sense that we should excel at using something we've never touched before. It allows the player to control what they gain skill points in by choosing what skill to queue, what gear to fit, what dropsuits to use and what weapons to use. The Skill Tree itself should remain largely unchanged in design, though with some minor tweaks to values (to bring it more in line with Eve's skill costs) as well as the addition of certain branches found in Eve that are not currently found in Dust (namely Leadership, Social and Trade). Lastly, every skill should provide a benefit outside of any unlocks, there should be no useless skills. Even if said benefits are tied to the Dropsuits/Modules/Weapons rather than the skill itself. Arzadu Akbar Motherfuckers!!!! Closed Beta Bittervet Bomber
Operative 1125 Lokaas True Companion Planetary Requisitions 176	Posted - 2014.05.17 00:32:00 - [434] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: CCP Z wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Feedback on Progression I like a lot the sidegrades idea and that is something that our Design Team is currently looking at (more or less modules, different weapon types, different abilities like being able to hack or not ...) At Fanfest you mentioned after the race choice in the skill tree there are these specializations. Can you give any examples or details about these specializations? If the commando doesn't make it into Legion, can there be an assault specialization with 2 light weapons? possibly at the cost of something else. Also, can you share some monetization ideas? The current default Assault has two light weapons. Commandos haven't really been worked on yet, but if they stick around it's likely they'll have a new role. How about making the commando what it should beGÇª a dual wield sidearm light suit with bonus to certain equipment. Maybe tweak the cloak to fit particularly with this suit. Honestly, the choices CCP makes I have to wonder if Iceland's definition of things is vastly different than the rest of the world's. Next time use Wikipedia for basic info. THIS IS THE VOICE OF RÁN
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4178	Posted - 2014.05.17 00:48:00 - [435] - Quote How much you wanna bet the majority of the people who found Dust's progression too "confusing" were simply people who had tried the game, hated it for every other reason besides the skill system, quit immediately, and never had time to actually look at the damn thing?
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1006	Posted - 2014.05.17 00:49:00 - [436] - Quote First, this is perhaps the most interesting thread IGÇÖve seen on the forum in a very long time. Many of the points and counter points I would have developed have been voiced in very articulate ways by members of the player community and for the most part we are keeping things on point; my hatGÇÖs off to you. Feedback on the proposed Legion progression system: 1) I like that CCP Z is really trying to push the envelope and look at things from a different perspective, however, radical change isnGÇÖt always the answer. No one thinks the Dust system is dialed in (i.e. unlock levels, SP not accruing bonuses, ease of use, ect) but it is certainly not broken to the core either. Broadly, I think the skill and fitting construct of Dust514 is one of the strongest aspects of the gameGÇªI think many would agree. Basically, my preferred option is to fix the things that MUST be fixed but donGÇÖt change purely for changes sake. a. I prefer open progression where I can choose options as I see fit. This can lead to mistakes and it can lead to novel or emergent tactics and game play. b. The progression system MUST be well spelled out the NPE / tutorial. I really do like the intent behind CCP ZGÇÖs concept about roles and logical builds but IGÇÖm against the currently stated implementation to deliver it. Provide template build instructions; create an ISIS like function for progression. 2) Legion is/isnGÇÖt EVE. CCP Z (and some others) are right in saying that Legion isnGÇÖt EVE, however, I believe they are incorrect that people donGÇÖt want MORE EVE in their Legion so to speak. The idea of an EVE experience where the PvP and PvE was delivered via a FPS platform was 100% what I was looking for. Honestly, Dust made me start playing EVE again...it made me want to be part of the New Eden gameplay. Some have challenged CCP that they canGÇÖt make a legit AAA FPS and IGÇÖm not sure they can but IGÇÖm willing to support their effort. What they CAN do is make a varsity level MMO that no one has been able to lay a glove on for 10 yrs. The factor that can and should separate Legion from any other FPS based game is depth, complexity, lasting impact, and persistenceGÇªhow does the proposed progression system hammer home that? 3) Respecs. If you add respecs then you need to make it hurt. I do like the attribute remap option in EVEGÇªyou get a freebie when you first sign up, after that no more than one per calendar year from the last remap. I do think you should be able to actively select which skills you want to GÇ£remapGÇ¥ and only get approximately a 50% return on SP similar to what Jadek and others have been discussing. 4) Boosters, AUR, and GearGÇªoh my! Not sure how I feel about AUR not being used to purchase gear and weapons if a player desires to do so. I might be misunderstanding CCP ZGÇÖs position on this but it strikes me as an easy monetization path. I honestly donGÇÖt care if players use AUR for gear as long as it works no different than my ISK fueled variants. I do think boosters should remain and perhaps even add some different flavors so to speak. Perhaps you could have specific boosters that give you even more of a boost to a much narrower range of skills but at higher cost. ........... Nothing IGÇÖve said above is ground breaking and some of you have voiced my thoughts already in your previous posts (quite well I might add). I did want to get on record and at least put my .02 ISK in. To CCP ZGÇª I am very glad that you were brought into the Dust / Legion community. I donGÇÖt know if I like or agree with some of your direction but I really enjoy the passion and enthusiasm you project to us. All I ask is that you remember that many of us have been involved in the web that CCP weaves for a long time with Dust, EVE, and now Legion. We are as passionate as you and we want Legion to be a truly ground breaking product just like I suspect you do. We are trying to helpGÇªyour vision and implementation might be exactly what the game needs and we have false concerns and equally valid is idea that we are providing spot on feedback that will help you make solid and well received design choices. WeGÇÖve been told a few times GÇ£trust usGÇªyouGÇÖll like itGÇ¥ and that hasnGÇÖt been the case so forgive our skepticism. WE ARE LEGION. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Fire of Prometheus Alpha Response Command 5143	Posted - 2014.05.17 00:58:00 - [437] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: CCP Z wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Feedback on Progression I like a lot the sidegrades idea and that is something that our Design Team is currently looking at (more or less modules, different weapon types, different abilities like being able to hack or not ...) At Fanfest you mentioned after the race choice in the skill tree there are these specializations. Can you give any examples or details about these specializations? If the commando doesn't make it into Legion, can there be an assault specialization with 2 light weapons? possibly at the cost of something else. Also, can you share some monetization ideas? The current default Assault has two light weapons. Commandos haven't really been worked on yet, but if they stick around it's likely they'll have a new role. Please don't make it the same as pre 1.8 commandos..... PSN: jcptmo8055 Commando 6 Long live commandos
Hammerhead LandSharkX Liberum Sapiens Xenodochi 27	Posted - 2014.05.17 01:37:00 - [438] - Quote TLDR I broken record, nothing new to see here. Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Days later and I still don't like the concept of this proposed progression system for pretty much every reason people have posted. I'm definitely getting the classic CCP Dust Development vibe of "we're going to do what we want on this with the illusion of feedback." The current skill system we have works to a certain extent but has it's obvious problems. 1/3/5 is bad. Items should be unlocked at 1 and every point after should provide a bonus. Why is this difficult? The idea that "there's too much choice" is simply silly. Yes, at first there is a bit too much choice but this can be remedied by a certification system similar to eve's. It can give you an idea of a "vanilla" role and you can go from there. You guys seem so ridiculously deadset on the idea that your players are idiots and it's insulting. Part of the biggest problem of NPE is that they don't know where to put their SP to make a decent build and also that weapons are incredibly imbalanced. We want depth and customization, not progression on rails until you hit end game. Stop trying to reinvent the progression and just fix the problems the current system has and make sure weapons and suits are balanced properly. very much, this. Vell0cet wrote: IGÇÖve created a proposal for an alternative progression system with some mockup interfaces and a mostly complete skill tree diagram. Here is the thread. I go into more detail there. IGÇÖd love to hear feedback--especially from CCP Z if you have the time to take a look. Images: Skill Tree Interface Mockup GÇ£ISISGÇ¥ Analog Mockup Skill Tree Diagram A very elaborate effort. Details aside, I'm with you in your line of thinking and believe very strongly that this avenue is the best for legion with eve, dust to legion, and for both new & vet players. Sadly I'm currently feeling Cyrius' words and the responses i've seen thus far as indicative of the kind of response you might get. Suggestions and feedback along these lines has been echo'd in this thread and in the forums and seem to be a reasonable route and the reason's thus far I've seen given to the contrary: CCP Z wrote: The Current system is too fast, too many weapons, modules, drop suits given away to quickly. ~~I would want to know why the current skill system could not be a base for EVE Legion with a UI overlay guiding players into roles? Has a investigation of this been done?~~ Re-watch the presentation, both Progression systems are not that far away from each other. You can have depth AND accessibility if you build the right UIs and invest the resources into making an amazing, story-based gameplay tutorial. EVEGÇÖs ISIS, and Mastery systems are excellent examples of how this can be done. I donGÇÖt necessarily agree with the EVE example, it remains a really difficult progression system to understand. Legion is not and will not be EVE, even if both games share the same universe. We have many reasons justifying that choice: we are not the same business model (subscription vs free to play), we are not talking to the same target audience (hardcore MMO players vs Online FPS Players). That isnGÇÖt to say that their progression system isnGÇÖt great and applicable to EVE GÇô only that it does not necessarily fit the game we want Project Legion to become. referring to the underlined part-what do they want it to become? CCP Z wrote: We are not trying to bring casual players in the game, we are trying to open the game to more players and not only create a niche game (as DUST is currently). If we want Legion to live, it has to provide an amazing experience but also be a financial success. Being a free to play Shooter on PC, we have to reach out to a bigger target audience than for the Console version if we want it to be successful I think that the new system will allow both: accessibility for new users to understand, while keeping the high level complexity of mix-matching modules, weapons and Dropsuits. what we are aiming for: easy at the beginning, so you understand all roles, what is their role on the battlefield and what items are associated to it; but specializing will take a lot longer and you will have to make difficult choices along the way (Cost of SP increasing as you go down a path) the level of customization remains the same as in DUST, we are changing the way it is presented to all players. Nagging contradictions aside, I think myself and many others are in support of changes and drastic improvements to what seems to be planned for the NPE, PVE, and hopefully to item and skill balance. I just firmly believe we shoudln't change the way we progress, rather those other changes are the biggest factor for improving the way new players understand how to progress. Balancing and cleaning up current skills instead of changing (and restricting) the way we progress seems a better option for both games and all audiences. I don't see why CCP won't make current progression "more difficult" by increasing skill point costs. Why a new role specific UI (ala ISIS) or a well designed certificate system isn't a good/convenient/compromising tool CCP can use to...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1336	Posted - 2014.05.17 02:03:00 - [439] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: [...]They've researched and identified with their own numbers short comings in the current system, both in the progression system and the NPE. Questioning the findings of the research because it happens to not agree with your view isn't going to alter the Dev teams trust in its findings either. Besides, I think we can all agree, that nearly everyone on this thread, defending Z or not has highlighted shortcomings in the current system. [...] I happen to question them because we know nothing substantial about this research other than the claim of it's existence and the assertion that the proposed system is a sensible response to its findings. Yes, the current system isn't perfect but that doesn't mean that the proposed system is the only, let alone optimal, alternative. We have no idea what they've been looking for, we don't know how they decided to look, we don't know what they've found and, most critically, we don't know how their findings ended up informing the proposed design other than the blunt assertion that people cannot handle the current system. This is important because, as several others have pointed out, assuming the research was sound and accepting CCP Z's et al. stated conclusion still doesn't tell us why a visual guiding frame (ISIS) wrapped around the current system, or really anything else that doesn't change the actual progression on any fundamental level, wouldn't work Also well elaborated in multiple posts is the fact that central concepts such as "no respecs" being the default position, players having full freedom of their skill choices without being soft-locked into arbitrary roles and the full distinction between your character and whatever gear he might be using at any given time are discarded, seemingly, without further consideration of their inherent place within the existing universe that is New Eden. Based on that. The proposed changes require some prior justification that goes beyond "95% of the people don't get it". Providing insight as to what this research is all about would be a reasonable first step. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8611	Posted - 2014.05.17 02:17:00 - [440] - Quote Since we're on the topic of Progression and it's a very hot topic from the looks of it, I have a proposal that CCP Z should read up on. Project Legion Skill Progression Proposal - By Maken Tosch It's probably not as elaborate as others have posted, but it's a proposal that I feel needs attention, particularly CCP Z's. It would be nice to compare our ideas to see how much of us are on the same page. Also, my proposal comes with a twist. Hope you like it. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.

Joel II X Dah Gods O Bacon 2582	Posted - 2014.05.17 03:11:00 - [441] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: Kevall Longstride wrote: Samael Artico wrote: I just had an idea. Take CCP Z's idea, then suggest, on the EVE Forums, to implement that same system into EVE Online. We'll use the EVE community's outrage over the idea to show CCP Z how bad he is at New Eden. I'm sure that someone would point out that using a progression system designed for a FTP game of a different genre wouldn't work on a subscription based ga....... Hang on a minute None of us play DUST 514 because it's F2P. We play it because of the depth that no one has ever seen in a shooter. CCP Z wants to take away that depth. That's taking away the most important aspect of the game. Actually, I played for 2 months solely because it was F2P. Once I understood the skill and isk thing, I stayed for that. I couldn't care less about anything. I used to RP for Gallente a bit, but meh.
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2108	Posted - 2014.05.17 03:31:00 - [442] - Quote Malkai Inos wrote: Kevall Longstride wrote: [...]They've researched and identified with their own numbers short comings in the current system, both in the progression system and the NPE. Questioning the findings of the research because it happens to not agree with your view isn't going to alter the Dev teams trust in its findings either. Besides, I think we can all agree, that nearly everyone on this thread, defending Z or not has highlighted shortcomings in the current system. [...] I happen to question them because we know nothing substantial about this research other than the claim of it's existence and the assertion that the proposed system is a sensible response to its findings. Yes, the current system isn't perfect but that doesn't mean that the proposed system is the only, let alone optimal, alternative. We have no idea what they've been looking for, we don't know how they decided to look, we don't know what they've found and, most critically, we don't know how their findings ended up informing the proposed design other than the blunt assertion that people cannot handle the current system. This is important because, as several others have pointed out, assuming the research was sound and accepting CCP Z's et al. stated conclusion still doesn't tell us why a visual guiding frame (ISIS) wrapped around the current system, or really anything else that doesn't change the actual progression on any fundamental level, wouldn't work Also well elaborated in multiple posts is the fact that central concepts such as "no respecs" being the default position, players having full freedom of their skill choices without being soft-locked into arbitrary roles and the full distinction between your character and whatever gear he might be using at any given time are discarded, seemingly, without further consideration of their inherent place within the existing universe that is New Eden. Based on that. The proposed changes require some prior justification that goes beyond "95% of the people don't get it". Providing insight as to what this research is all about would be a reasonable first step. Edit: Yes I get and agree with your overall call for some civility and appreciation. Yes I am deliberately confrontational because getting some info on why CCP Z chose the proposed design is vital in My opinion. Well said Malkai. These conclusions drawn from research sound like they're rock-solid, but they can't be - for example, how did CCP control for a terrible NPE? Short answer is they couldn't. But many of us in the community know from experience that taking a few minutes to give a new player a helping hand and answer a few questions could make all the difference. CCP seemed to think it was never worth the effort, and their answer now is to flatten the power differential and add permanent training wheels to the progression system. Here's a little self-indulgent DUST story. In the past 8 months i trained up an Ammarian(shudder) alt, Sairhyssa Talith. No passive sp, no AUR(xcept 1 omega for one of the big sp events). Just pure combat grind against blue donut protostompers. She finally hit 10 million sp and on a good day she can kick ass. I will treasure that experience forever, because given the state of thinking displayed by CCP Z i will never face that challenge in New Eden again, at least not on the ground. If Sairhyssa Talith were here to speak for herself, i know what she would call that: she'd call it heartbreaking. And so do i. PSN: RationalSpark
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2109	Posted - 2014.05.17 03:42:00 - [443] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Since we're on the topic of Progression and it's a very hot topic from the looks of it, I have a proposal that CCP Z should read up on. Project Legion Skill Progression Proposal - By Maken Tosch It's probably not as elaborate as others have posted, but it's a proposal that I feel needs attention, particularly CCP Z's. It would be nice to compare our ideas to see how much of us are on the same page. Also, my proposal comes with a twist. Hope you like it. Nicely presented and good content Maken. So many mercs here have presented progression systems that serve newberries and vets, reflect the values of New Eden and fit the game on the ground very well. It warms the heart to see what we can do when we're not going to war over tiericide, blue donuts, tankspam and redline snipers ;) PSN: RationalSpark
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8616	Posted - 2014.05.17 03:51:00 - [444] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Since we're on the topic of Progression and it's a very hot topic from the looks of it, I have a proposal that CCP Z should read up on. Project Legion Skill Progression Proposal - By Maken Tosch It's probably not as elaborate as others have posted, but it's a proposal that I feel needs attention, particularly CCP Z's. It would be nice to compare our ideas to see how much of us are on the same page. Also, my proposal comes with a twist. Hope you like it. Nicely presented and good content Maken. So many mercs here have presented progression systems that serve newberries and vets, reflect the values of New Eden and fit the game on the ground very well. It warms the heart to see what we can do when we're not going to war over tiericide, blue donuts, tankspam and redline snipers ;) At our very core we are a community after all. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Iskandar Zul Karnain Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 2652	Posted - 2014.05.17 04:06:00 - [445] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Since we're on the topic of Progression and it's a very hot topic from the looks of it, I have a proposal that CCP Z should read up on. Project Legion Skill Progression Proposal - By Maken Tosch It's probably not as elaborate as others have posted, but it's a proposal that I feel needs attention, particularly CCP Z's. It would be nice to compare our ideas to see how much of us are on the same page. Also, my proposal comes with a twist. Hope you like it. That looks pretty good. I think most of us here would prefer an open skill tree that allows us to quickly specialize however we want. This is the easily accessible diversity I would hate to see lost in a system that encourages preformulated roles.
McFurious TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 783	Posted - 2014.05.17 04:52:00 - [446] - Quote calisk galern wrote: McFurious wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Despite the game's lack of modes besides just the basic archetypes, you want to remove the commando? I implore you to not only keep the commando, but to also expand specializations into a wide variety of options with various specialties (like that area-of-effect specialization CCP never added). Whoa... WHAT?! Somehow I missed this. For the love of all things awesome do not get rid of the commando. That was one of the best things in any of the updates. according to them the commando has no place yet in their design, this doesn't mean we will never get one, just that as of this moment in time they believe it to not have a place in legion. I read elsewhere on the forums that the plan is for assault suits to carry 2 light weapons. Not sure how I feel about that idea yet. Half Irish. Often angry. Grizzled Masshole Closed Beta Vet PC > Console
Captain Crutches Nexus Marines 126	Posted - 2014.05.17 04:53:00 - [447] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Vrain Matari wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Since we're on the topic of Progression and it's a very hot topic from the looks of it, I have a proposal that CCP Z should read up on. Project Legion Skill Progression Proposal - By Maken Tosch It's probably not as elaborate as others have posted, but it's a proposal that I feel needs attention, particularly CCP Z's. It would be nice to compare our ideas to see how much of us are on the same page. Also, my proposal comes with a twist. Hope you like it. Nicely presented and good content Maken. So many mercs here have presented progression systems that serve newberries and vets, reflect the values of New Eden and fit the game on the ground very well. It warms the heart to see what we can do when we're not going to war over tiericide, blue donuts, tankspam and redline snipers ;) At our very core we are a community after all. So say we all. Oh frakking seven, mate. And I'd vote for your proposal solely because you had a picture of Miku in your slideshow. <3 Legion is absolutely the right move for the future of Dust. How CCP went about revealing it is the biggest problem.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8619	Posted - 2014.05.17 04:58:00 - [448] - Quote Captain Crutches wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Vrain Matari wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Since we're on the topic of Progression and it's a very hot topic from the looks of it, I have a proposal that CCP Z should read up on. Project Legion Skill Progression Proposal - By Maken Tosch It's probably not as elaborate as others have posted, but it's a proposal that I feel needs attention, particularly CCP Z's. It would be nice to compare our ideas to see how much of us are on the same page. Also, my proposal comes with a twist. Hope you like it. Nicely presented and good content Maken. So many mercs here have presented progression systems that serve newberries and vets, reflect the values of New Eden and fit the game on the ground very well. It warms the heart to see what we can do when we're not going to war over tiericide, blue donuts, tankspam and redline snipers ;) At our very core we are a community after all. So say we all. Oh frakking seven, mate. And I'd vote for your proposal solely because you had a picture of Miku in your slideshow. <3 What? No mention of the link? On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Hammerhead LandSharkX Liberum Sapiens Xenodochi 31	Posted - 2014.05.17 05:08:00 - [449] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Since we're on the topic of Progression and it's a very hot topic from the looks of it, I have a proposal that CCP Z should read up on. Project Legion Skill Progression Proposal - By Maken Tosch you should start a thread for that
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8621	Posted - 2014.05.17 05:29:00 - [450] - Quote Hammerhead LandSharkX wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Since we're on the topic of Progression and it's a very hot topic from the looks of it, I have a proposal that CCP Z should read up on. Project Legion Skill Progression Proposal - By Maken Tosch you should start a thread for that I actually thought about that, but realized that there is already two threads in existence where I can best post this in for maximum visibility. This thread in which it seems that CCP Z is actually reading every single post in it despite the 23 pages already on it and the one that I-Shayz-I has created which later became stickied and it now the go-to reference thread for major topics and ideas. Therefore, posting my own thread would be a moot point. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.

Oswald Rehnquist 1355	Posted - 2014.05.17 06:59:00 - [451] - Quote Read every single post here, phew!! @ CCP Z [Progression] This is just food for thought, hopefully there is something useful in here. 1) Identity People orient themselves and identify their play styles by variations of 1) dropsuit, 2) race, and/or 3) weapon choice. Your proposal is organized by dropsuit/role (and what you want paired with it), which is very traditional in the fps world. Another very common model is organized around weapon specialization. So while the dropsuits are streamlined, you effectively bastardize weapons with the set up. From the wording and imaging presented, a weapon's variants (Breach, Assault, etc) seem to be scattered far around different branches of a tree. Which is very convoluted for something so pivotal to identity. One's weapon of choice is on par with ones dropsuit/role. If I am a master sniper, then organizing my progression becomes a little convoluted, which is contrary to what you guys are looking for. TL/DR: Weapon identity is important to consider 2) Taking race out of weapons? Another logical guess I'm garnered from your progression system, seeing how mass drivers: Variant A are a logis tool, and how variants are broken up, weapons are no longer based on race on a functional level, and while there aren't any specific modules mention, modules seem to be based off of suits now. I find this rather interesting because racial/factional pride is massive in games, in fact almost all pvp games use it, it creates tension, it creates themes, rping, etc. Having to chase racial purity (or the loss of it?) is definitely a new concept. I think I just have more questions than anything else, like what module is logi based? And would that favor one of the racial variants more down the line? 3) Handling Changes The current set up will make it a massive pain to add new content or new weapons. Sticking new weapons on an arbitrary suit let alone opening up a new suit idea but lacking weapons to fill it out means that once this system is set, new suits are almost unlikely at all, and any changes would have to be suit variants of previous ones, thus some stifling in suit creativity. Again, just food for thought. I also understand this CCP Z wrote: The Current system is too fast, too many weapons, modules, drop suits given away to quickly. but there are a few other ways of increasing the sp sink, which is what I believe the module and weapon variant scattering was intended for, I just find this method slightly unorganized and in a way more complicated, again mainly based on the fact that weapon pursuits and or racial purity is not how the tree is organized, which are the two other major forms of identification. I don't have the full picture, so very likely most of the things I'm typing may not be relevant or you already thought of a way of countering it. But I do strongly think that the weapon variant scattering is convoluted. Below 28 dB
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1321	Posted - 2014.05.17 07:13:00 - [452] - Quote Malkai Inos wrote: Kevall Longstride wrote: [...]They've researched and identified with their own numbers short comings in the current system, both in the progression system and the NPE. Questioning the findings of the research because it happens to not agree with your view isn't going to alter the Dev teams trust in its findings either. Besides, I think we can all agree, that nearly everyone on this thread, defending Z or not has highlighted shortcomings in the current system. [...] I happen to question them because we know nothing substantial about this research other than the claim of it's existence and the assertion that the proposed system is a sensible response to its findings. Yes, the current system isn't perfect but that doesn't mean that the proposed system is the only, let alone optimal, alternative. We have no idea what they've been looking for, we don't know how they decided to look, we don't know what they've found and, most critically, we don't know how their findings ended up informing the proposed design other than the blunt assertion that people cannot handle the current system. This is important because, as several others have pointed out, assuming the research was sound and accepting CCP Z's et al. stated conclusion still doesn't tell us why a visual guiding frame (ISIS) wrapped around the current system, or really anything else that doesn't change the actual progression on any fundamental level, wouldn't work Also well elaborated in multiple posts is the fact that central concepts such as "no respecs" being the default position, players having full freedom of their skill choices without being soft-locked into arbitrary roles and the full distinction between your character and whatever gear he might be using at any given time are discarded, seemingly, without further consideration of their inherent place within the existing universe that is New Eden. Based on that. The proposed changes require some prior justification that goes beyond "95% of the people don't get it". Providing insight as to what this research is all about would be a reasonable first step. Edit: Yes I get and agree with your overall call for some civility and appreciation. Yes I am deliberately confrontational because getting some info on why CCP Z chose the proposed design is vital in My opinion. Thank you being civil and constructive. As a counter argument I'd say this. Who here demanded to see all the research and the methodology behind it before they swallowed a couple of painkillers? Or enquired as to the quality of the peer review behind the research which led to Pepto Pismol? I'm all for being more empirical in such choices but really, asking or even demanding as some have in this thread, details of a computer game company's R&D process is taking perceived entitlement to a new level. My point is, we'll all happily put into our bodies a pill given to us by a doctor without thought as to how it came to be. But when research finds that changes to a computer game are needed...... CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Meisterjager Jagermeister Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 133	Posted - 2014.05.17 07:20:00 - [453] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: The current default Assault has two light weapons. Does the Assault still have a grenade slot? Don't take away the grenade!!! AKA - StarVenger
Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 148	Posted - 2014.05.17 07:38:00 - [454] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Days later and I still don't like the concept of this proposed progression system for pretty much every reason people have posted. I'm definitely getting the classic CCP Dust Development vibe of "we're going to do what we want on this with the illusion of feedback." The current skill system we have works to a certain extent but has it's obvious problems. 1/3/5 is bad. Items should be unlocked at 1 and every point after should provide a bonus. Why is this difficult? The idea that "there's too much choice" is simply silly. Yes, at first there is a bit too much choice but this can be remedied by a certification system similar to eve's. It can give you an idea of a "vanilla" role and you can go from there. You guys seem so ridiculously deadset on the idea that your players are idiots and it's insulting. Part of the biggest problem of NPE is that they don't know where to put their SP to make a decent build and also that weapons are incredibly imbalanced. We want depth and customization, not progression on rails until you hit end game. Stop trying to reinvent the progression and just fix the problems the current system has and make sure weapons and suits are balanced properly. It's a shame I can only give you 1 like. CCP take note this post summed up every feeling I have about your proposal for the new skill layout without (in my opinion) being overly harsh and sounding like QQ. Please take all this feedback on board from this thread. People want this to work. Learn from what you already know and have. GÇ£Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.GÇ¥ GÇò Frank Zappa
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1321	Posted - 2014.05.17 08:01:00 - [455] - Quote Hawkings Greenback wrote: Snip Interesting Zappa quote in your sig. Somewhat pertinent, given the discussion in this thread. CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 10802	Posted - 2014.05.17 10:35:00 - [456] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: CCP Z wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Feedback on Progression I like a lot the sidegrades idea and that is something that our Design Team is currently looking at (more or less modules, different weapon types, different abilities like being able to hack or not ...) At Fanfest you mentioned after the race choice in the skill tree there are these specializations. Can you give any examples or details about these specializations? If the commando doesn't make it into Legion, can there be an assault specialization with 2 light weapons? possibly at the cost of something else. Also, can you share some monetization ideas? The current default Assault has two light weapons. Commandos haven't really been worked on yet, but if they stick around it's likely they'll have a new role. Commandos could get 1 heavy weapon and 1 light weapon (some rebalancing would be needed), or perhaps they could be turned into the area-of-effect bonus/debuff suits. Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A Caps and Mercs 488	Posted - 2014.05.17 10:46:00 - [457] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: Who here demanded to see all the research and the methodology behind it before they swallowed a couple of painkillers? Or enquired as to the quality of the peer review behind the research which led to Pepto Pismol? I'm all for being more empirical in such choices but really, asking or even demanding as some have in this thread, details of a computer game company's R&D process is taking perceived entitlement to a new level. My point is, we'll all happily put into our bodies a pill given to us by a doctor without thought as to how it came to be. But when research finds that changes to a computer game are needed...... Did anyone ask Picasso what was in his head? Your memory do you no justice fellow player. Here is what i said: Natu Nobilis wrote: First question i have is about the methodology of your study, the sample space and these things, because if the questions were linked to the Dust skill tree, then you have a serious bias compromising your study. Hardly a demand of anything. Simply a question (almost rethorical) to present some variables that may not have been taken in account. Again, you should check the reference instead of what your memory and personal bias may be leading you to. Some players may not be familiar with the steps involved in a study (or how scientific work is done in general) and i insist on the methodology topic (again, i-¦m not demanding anything, i-¦m suggesting that certain variables may ahve been overlooked) because i happened to reply a questionary about Dust 514 made by CCP, and from what i remembered, i reviewed the skill tree system very very poorly. With the way DUST questionary asked questions, i may be one of the 95% that bashed the skill tree system. (That i don-¦t know if it served as basis for their internal conclusions) Do i hate the Tree Skill system? No. Do i hate DUST-¦s pseudo-Tree Skill system? YES. See the difference and how a badly formulated question may induce error? If two separate and different systems are called "Dust Skill Tree" my answers will either favour a badly implemented skilltree like the one we have now, or point to the removal of said skill tree, when all i wnated was for it to be properly implemented without the 1-3-5 unlock, with all of them giving bonus to something, and all that i pointed previously. You are not "just another forum poster", you-¦re a CPM candidate, and quite frankly, Ad Hominem does you no service. If you have questions, i would be more than glad to answer and try to explain my line of thought, but putting words in my mouth, and doing a deturpation of what i said it-¦s not cool man. I-¦ve read all the 23 pages of the discussion, i tried to give structured feedback, and of course i-¦m trying to make a point for something i believe, specially when the counterpoint is not presented or structured (All in all, that we have of the new progression system is a vague idea with a Fanfest presentation and some replies from CCP Z) (Other counterpoints may or not be what CCP Z have in mind, so may be classified as a third or more proposed system) I love UNI and i recommend new players to you guys, both in Dust and EVE, but YOU, specially as a Candidate, if you can-¦t look at a line of reasoning in a cold, clinical way, and bash other players on public forum trying to mock them, that-¦s really not cool man, and that-¦s a characteristic that worries me about representation in the council. If you can-¦t try to comprehend what players with unpopular opinios are saying, how can you represent them? Food for your thought, not a demand, threat or something, only a call to reflexion.
Vell0cet Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad. 2059	Posted - 2014.05.17 15:35:00 - [458] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: Actually Z has already posted in the positive in regard to the ISIS question. I know we've had a few disagreements in this discussion. I drafted up a progression proposal and made a thread. The goal is to retain the depth of the existing system but make it more accessible for new players. As the CEO of the most well-known and respected organizations for training new players, and as a CPM 1 candidate, I would really appreciate any feedback you might have. You would probably have some unique and useful insights. Best PvE idea ever!
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1323	Posted - 2014.05.17 15:40:00 - [459] - Quote Thanks for feedback Natu and I do take it on board. Just a couple of points. I quoted Malkai in the the post you quoted because he was the last person (but not the only) in the thread to speak of asking for research. Nothing personal Malkai o7. I made no mention of names, so its a big assumption that I meant you particular. But I apologise if I've caused you to believe so, when as you say you didn't demand but you were the first to question it. Secondly, as any member or former member of the CPM or CSM will tell, getting CCP to show them details of internal research is like pulling teeth. And they've signed an NDA. So the chances of getting such research posted publicly when it might involve proprietary information that CCP don't want making public, isn't something that could or should be reasonably expected. As to what you said here "If you can-¦t try to comprehend what players with unpopular opinions are saying, how can you represent them?", in this particular instance I'm the one with the unpopular opinion in this thread, because I think what Z has come up with is pretty damn good and I've spent 23 pages defending him. Being a member of CPM does mean that that I would have act as an advocate for the players. But am I not allowed an opinion? Would I be expected to slavishly agree with everything that was said by the players? Of course not, I'd be riddled with indecision and be of no use to the playerbase or to CCP. I have to look at all the information from both sides, form an opinion as to the best way to proceed that will not only benefit the players but benefit the long term future of the game. And Z's system in my judgement, will do both. It needs the odd tweak but it's how we should go. Is that the popular view? Judging by this thread so far, certainly not. My reasoning for such an unpopular stance is an ugly truth. The player numbers are dwindling. Radical changes in thinking are needed and long held assumption must be cast away if this game is to greenlit and successful. Simply tinkering with the current systems in game is like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. It needs a rocket fuelled enema kicking up its arse. Legion has to be greenlit, if it isn't, it's game over. For it to be greenlit, CCP need it to be a success. Rouge and Z were brought in for a reason. Check out their histories. They've worked on a long line of successful FTP games. A proven track record. The Dev's are more fired up and energised for this than I've ever seen them in the past and Rouge is the reason why. I'll of course be a strong voice for the players and do everything I can to help them in the CPM or not. But right now, on this issue, I have to be on CCP's side because the long term future of the game is at stake here. If that makes me unpopular so be it. If it loses me your vote, so be it. But I will not back down from what I know to be the right thing to do. CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8628	Posted - 2014.05.17 16:12:00 - [460] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: Thanks for feedback Natu and I do take it on board. Just a couple of points. I quoted Malkai in the the post you quoted because he was the last person (but not the only) in the thread to speak of asking for research. Nothing personal Malkai o7. I made no mention of names, so its a big assumption that I meant you particular. But I apologise if I've caused you to believe so, when as you say you didn't demand but you were the first to question it. Secondly, as any member or former member of the CPM or CSM will tell, getting CCP to show them details of internal research is like pulling teeth. And they've signed an NDA. So the chances of getting such research posted publicly when it might involve proprietary information that CCP don't want making public, isn't something that could or should be reasonably expected. As to what you said here "If you can-¦t try to comprehend what players with unpopular opinions are saying, how can you represent them?", in this particular instance I'm the one with the unpopular opinion in this thread, because I think what Z has come up with is pretty damn good and I've spent 23 pages defending him. Being a member of CPM does mean that that I would have act as an advocate for the players. But am I not allowed an opinion? Would I be expected to slavishly agree with everything that was said by the players? Of course not, I'd be riddled with indecision and be of no use to the playerbase or to CCP. I have to look at all the information from both sides, form an opinion as to the best way to proceed that will not only benefit the players but benefit the long term future of the game. And Z's system in my judgement, will do both. It needs the odd tweak but it's how we should go. Is that the popular view? Judging by this thread so far, certainly not. My reasoning for such an unpopular stance is an ugly truth. The player numbers are dwindling. Radical changes in thinking are needed and long held assumption must be cast away if this game is to greenlit and successful. Simply tinkering with the current systems in game is like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. It needs a rocket fuelled enema kicking up its arse. Legion has to be greenlit, if it isn't, it's game over. For it to be greenlit, CCP need it to be a success. Rouge and Z were brought in for a reason. Check out their histories. They've worked on a long line of successful FTP games. A proven track record. The Dev's are more fired up and energised for this than I've ever seen them in the past and Rouge is the reason why. I'll of course be a strong voice for the players and do everything I can to help them in the CPM or not. But right now, on this issue, I have to be on CCP's side because the long term future of the game is at stake here. If that makes me unpopular so be it. If it loses me your vote, so be it. But I will not back down from what I know to be the right thing to do. There will always be disagreements with something. Anyways, what do you think of my proposal for the skill progression? On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.

Stupid Blueberry Nova Corps Marines Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 502	Posted - 2014.05.17 16:16:00 - [461] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: CCP Z wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Feedback on Progression I like a lot the sidegrades idea and that is something that our Design Team is currently looking at (more or less modules, different weapon types, different abilities like being able to hack or not ...) At Fanfest you mentioned after the race choice in the skill tree there are these specializations. Can you give any examples or details about these specializations? If the commando doesn't make it into Legion, can there be an assault specialization with 2 light weapons? possibly at the cost of something else. Also, can you share some monetization ideas? The current default Assault has two light weapons. Commandos haven't really been worked on yet, but if they stick around it's likely they'll have a new role. That's badass. Chillin, waitin on Legion. Ishukone loyalist, Caldari Scout enthusiast!
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1324	Posted - 2014.05.17 16:28:00 - [462] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: Kevall Longstride wrote: Actually Z has already posted in the positive in regard to the ISIS question. I know we've had a few disagreements in this discussion. I drafted up a progression proposal and made a thread. The goal is to retain the depth of the existing system but make it more accessible for new players. As the CEO of the most well-known and respected organizations for training new players, and as a CPM 1 candidate, I would really appreciate any feedback you might have. You would probably have some unique and useful insights. I'll be posting in it shortly. o7 CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5658	Posted - 2014.05.17 16:32:00 - [463] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: The current skill system we have works to a certain extent but has it's obvious problems. 1/3/5 is bad. Items should be unlocked at 1 and every point after should provide a bonus. Why is this difficult? Guess you were so angry you completely missed the part where they practically described the system being exactly like this. Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8628	Posted - 2014.05.17 16:36:00 - [464] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: The current skill system we have works to a certain extent but has it's obvious problems. 1/3/5 is bad. Items should be unlocked at 1 and every point after should provide a bonus. Why is this difficult? Guess you were so angry you completely missed the part where they practically described the system being exactly like this. That's usually what happens in a 23-page thread. EDIT: Woops! 24 pages now. EDIT2: My only concern about the new progression system is that I would be forced into training up a suit I don't want for a weapon that I like. That to me is an even bigger SP sink than what Dust currently has. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 354	Posted - 2014.05.17 16:40:00 - [465] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: CCP Z wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Feedback on Progression I like a lot the sidegrades idea and that is something that our Design Team is currently looking at (more or less modules, different weapon types, different abilities like being able to hack or not ...) Just remember, Sentinels are a bit War Point starved as it is. If you take away their ability to hack, you need to be thinking about ways to give them another way of generating some WP other than just slaying. (Not against the idea, just raising an issue you need to consider.) damage received 10pts Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5659	Posted - 2014.05.17 16:43:00 - [466] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: The current skill system we have works to a certain extent but has it's obvious problems. 1/3/5 is bad. Items should be unlocked at 1 and every point after should provide a bonus. Why is this difficult? Guess you were so angry you completely missed the part where they practically described the system being exactly like this. That's usually what happens in a 23-page thread. EDIT: Woops! 24 pages now. EDIT2: My only concern about the new progression system is that I would be forced into training up a suit I don't want for a weapon that I like. That to me is an even bigger SP sink than what Dust currently has. Not really. Guy said that it would be really easy to get stuff and that most of your SP investment in the early-game would be spent on unlocks, not so much bonuses. I like to think that once you get to the racial bit (since it's Academy > Frame > Role > Racial > Specialization) you're focusing more on fine-tuning and turning your dials than you are setting everything up. Making your playstyle more powerful as opposed to getting stuff for it. What with a system where you don't have to get Dropsuit Command 3 > Amarr Heavy 3 > Amarr Sentinel 1, it seems like it'd be a hell of a lot easier to blaze through to the suit you want and then focus on all the extra stuff. I know a lot of people are saying that "modules/weapons shouldn't be locked behind roles" but honestly, I can't see much of a reason you'd need Profile Dampeners and Myrofibril Stimulants on a Sentinel xD Big problem I see right now is that people are so angry, they're not doing their research/reading to find the answers. I mean, there is a "First Dev Post" button in the upper right and then you can just click on the blue banners to go to the next one =P Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 355	Posted - 2014.05.17 16:50:00 - [467] - Quote As for the respec option. I would say it would be ok...but as long as you only get 1, and once you use it, you never get another one. :p Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
Cyrius Li-Moody 0uter.Heaven 5365	Posted - 2014.05.17 16:50:00 - [468] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: The current skill system we have works to a certain extent but has it's obvious problems. 1/3/5 is bad. Items should be unlocked at 1 and every point after should provide a bonus. Why is this difficult? Guess you were so angry you completely missed the part where they practically described the system being exactly like this. That's usually what happens in a 23-page thread. EDIT: Woops! 24 pages now. EDIT2: My only concern about the new progression system is that I would be forced into training up a suit I don't want for a weapon that I like. That to me is an even bigger SP sink than what Dust currently has. Not really. Guy said that it would be really easy to get stuff and that most of your SP investment in the early-game would be spent on unlocks, not so much bonuses. I like to think that once you get to the racial bit (since it's Academy > Frame > Role > Racial > Specialization) you're focusing more on fine-tuning and turning your dials than you are setting everything up. Making your playstyle more powerful as opposed to getting stuff for it. What with a system where you don't have to get Dropsuit Command 3 > Amarr Heavy 3 > Amarr Sentinel 1, it seems like it'd be a hell of a lot easier to blaze through to the suit you want and then focus on all the extra stuff. I know a lot of people are saying that "modules/weapons shouldn't be locked behind roles" but honestly, I can't see much of a reason you'd need Profile Dampeners and Myrofibril Stimulants on a Sentinel xD Big problem I see right now is that people are so angry, they're not doing their research/reading to find the answers. I mean, there is a "First Dev Post" button in the upper right and then you can just click on the blue banners to go to the next one =P I won't get into a argument with you but I read the post, watched the progression videos. I know they brought up tiericide. Merely echoing problems with our current system even if they've already been stated to be covered. Thanks for your concern though. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8628	Posted - 2014.05.17 17:04:00 - [469] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Not really. Guy said that it would be really easy to get stuff and that most of your SP investment in the early-game would be spent on unlocks, not so much bonuses. I like to think that once you get to the racial bit (since it's Academy > Frame > Role > Racial > Specialization) you're focusing more on fine-tuning and turning your dials than you are setting everything up. Making your playstyle more powerful as opposed to getting stuff for it. What with a system where you don't have to get Dropsuit Command 3 > Amarr Heavy 3 > Amarr Sentinel 1, it seems like it'd be a hell of a lot easier to blaze through to the suit you want and then focus on all the extra stuff. I know a lot of people are saying that "modules/weapons shouldn't be locked behind roles" but honestly, I can't see much of a reason you'd need Profile Dampeners and Myrofibril Stimulants on a Sentinel xD Big problem I see right now is that people are so angry, they're not doing their research/reading to find the answers. I mean, there is a "First Dev Post" button in the upper right and then you can just click on the blue banners to go to the next one =P That is because New Eden is all about flexibility. Almost every FPS out there allows some form of flexibility. Halo ODST and Halo 4 has a similar system in place where a player can fit whatever weapon they like regardless of what their armor looks like (even though technically it's a same armor). From a non-FPS stand point, Eve Online offers the flexibility to fit a mining laser on a battleship if we wanted to. It won't be as effective as a dedicated mining ship like the Exhumers, but it's flexibility none the less. So if someone wants to fit profile dampeners and Myrofibrils on a Sentinel, then that's their choice. That's their business, not yours or CCP's. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2025	Posted - 2014.05.17 17:44:00 - [470] - Quote Great first post, thanks for the information and opening up this discussion. I also enjoyed watching your fanfest presentation which I will be referencing back to frequently. CCP Z wrote: We will offer a Respec Option (which does not exist in DUST 514). More information will come down the line as the projectGÇÖs development progresses. This part concerns me. In light of the fanfest presentation the respec option seems to be a corrosive one. If the progression tree is created to be accessible and useful to new players then the need for a respec is greatly reduced, even more so with the inclusion of a more effective matchmaking system (meta score) and the more robust academy experience. Adding a respec also seems to reduce the value of the long term diversity intended in the progression system (again as per fanfest). It is obvious that removing all by the proto version of a weapon or piece of gear, such as you described with the mass driver, removes a certain aspect of player choice. You do a good job of presenting the benefits of this change, but how are those benefits, such as long term exploration of the game, going to exist in an environment with repeatable limitless respecs? Further, while I adamantly support your preservation of the ability to mix and match mods, weapons, suits et al once unlocked, how are you going to prevent (even within the meta score system) massive FotM swings (and the economic shocks that come with them) from negatively impacting the games meta and NPE? N New players will bear a greater burden from FotM under a limitless respec system in that they will not have as much SP to reallocate and thus a lessor ability to customize. The advantage provided by more SP under your proposed progression system without respecs seems robust and balance by the meaningful choices a player makes within that persistent context, with respecs however the value of the progression system is largely eroded as vet players will now be able to run whatever combination they so desire and will have the deeper knowledge of min/maxing in game systems so that even the meta score will be unlikely to truly mitigate a new type of proto stomping. (To be clear, I am speaking very literally here about the total number of respecs per character. I am not commenting on the frequency of respecs.) I realize the details of the respec system have not be released yet which is why I feel this is an appropriate time to bring these concerns to the fore, prior to that system being finalized and unveiled. Moving on; Meta Score appears to be a great conceptual way to enhance matchmaking BPO dropsuits, and player stats attached to them, is an elegant way to add a sense of persistence for players without removing the risk vs reward of the sandbox (as fittings will still be consumed and have real costs in time, ISK and SP). A shift towards Tiericide within weapons is appealing but needs to be handled carefully so as not do deviate into a Diablo style loot grind (the Diablo games are fun in their own right, but just like EVE:O should not be directly copy-pasted over Legion nor should games like DIII be role models for how Legion functions) Player market - This is key to many aspects of the game, having it sooner rather than later is very important, and avoiding an oversimplified "auction house" method is vital. This is the single area most important to take inspiration from EVE:O in that working towards a player market, a true asset life cycle and a market economy which contains meaningful elements of location, supply, and dynamic change are all highly pertinent. Of course, just like in the history of EVE:O some of this will be built over time, but as a high level goal I cannot state enough how important this aspect is. We are in New Eden - The existence of Legion within New Eden, not simply within the New Eden IP, is also very important. One key aspect of that is not to make it dependent in EVE:O, which you've made strong strides toward with the current progression system in when and how you are introducing the races. Please continue to have that same outlook advise other aspects of development. I realize my last two points are arguably outside of progression, however they are important to consider as progression is defined, as they hold implications for balance, accessibility, etc of the very items being unlocked and effected by the progression system. I'll wrap up my first post in this discussion by reiterating that while I understand respecs are an often requested mechanic they still seem like a very risky, and hasty, design choice as I have yet to see even a theoretical method by which unlimited respecs can exist while still legitimately maintaining a meaningful and persistant sandbox. In short, if you start to remove the risks you denigrate the value of the rewards and stifle both emotional investiture and emergent game play. 0.02 ISK Cross PS ~ Now to go and read the other 23 pages of this thread. SupportSP Rollover & an improved Recruting System

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2025	Posted - 2014.05.17 17:58:00 - [471] - Quote Jonny D Buelle wrote: Heinz Doofenshertz wrote: CCP Z wrote: We will offer a Respec Option (which does not exist in DUST 514). More information will come down the line as the projectGÇÖs development progresses. While I agree that in some games a Respec option is a good thing. as you may get to a point in the game where all the choices you have made are completely obsolete or bad. In New Eden no choice should ever be made lightly, nor should they be easily changed. As no spent skill is every really wasted, it might not be useful right now, but you may run into a situation later on where you'll need it and wow I already have that skill. New Eden is very much a place of choices, however, making a choice needs to have weight as it does now. I play Logi, and Assault, if I spend skill points into a heavy tree to test it out and decide I don't like how it plays fine. but I shouldn't be able to just undo those choices. There are limited occasons I would say respecs ok. The end of the NPE, because you just finished learning how to play and probably made bad choices before learning how important choices are. When major changes to the skill system are made, IE you removed 15 skills I had, refunding those points I'm ok with. Making it so that I decide I don't like the skills I have paying 5 bucks and being able to completely redo my entire tree smacks all the choices in the face, and then hampers me in my ability to use the new gear I just got, because I have not properly progressed thru the tree learning how this style plays. which means I might also not like it. I know many people are used to this being an option in other games, but it does not really fit with New Eden. yes it makes it a bit harder for some, and makes others think they are trapped with bad choices, but this is because they didn't understand the system in the first place and don't understand why it is that way. If these are addressed early on in the NPE, like having people pick certain skills, explaining that choices are important and that, as I suggested above they can reassign them once they finish, but afterwards their choices both with their skills and their trigger pulls are important, and needed to be treated that way. I would like to point out to you that EVE does offer a variation of a respec in the form of Remapping your attributes (Wisdom, Charisma, Endurance etc.) to better suit your progression in the game. Yes it is different than a respec but it can still be considered respeccing. (source and reading on remapping https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Neural_remapping) You do make some valid points, and I agree that the respec should only be given at the end of NPE. God knows how grateful I was when 1.0 came with a full respec. I messed up massively in my first month. I think that if CCP does intend to do respecs, make it a yearly thing and even then only a partial respec. EG: Respec Weaponry, Respec Dropsuit Command etc. Remapping is a very real thing, you are correct. It is not however in any sense a respec. Remapping is a persistent choice, once yearly you can alter your attributes to *specialize your future SP gains. It does not alter any currently existing skills, it does not refund anything, and the enhanced training speed gained within the specialized areas comes at the cost of reduced training speed in the areas outside of that specialization. Remapping allows for high level player manipulation of their planed skill progression, what it does not do is offer an 'out' from the ramifications or persistence of any choice a player has already made. All of that being said, a one time only* free respec coming out of the Academy seems reasonable, as does the occasional allowance of SP reallocation in the face of any total skill tree overhaul/the outright removal of specific skills, but such cases should be vanishingly rare and certainly not a planned recurring feature. 0.02 ISK Cross SupportSP Rollover & an improved Recruting System
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8631	Posted - 2014.05.17 18:39:00 - [472] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: All of that being said, a one time only free respec coming out of the Academy seems reasonable, as does the occasional allowance of SP reallocation in the face of any total skill tree overhaul/the outright removal of specific skills, but such cases should be vanishingly rare and certainly not a planned recurring feature. 0.02 ISK Cross This I agree. A one-time respec after graduating from the Academy should be the extent of it. 2-5 million SP seems to be the common metric everyone is going by for this case. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Vell0cet Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad. 2060	Posted - 2014.05.17 18:45:00 - [473] - Quote As an alternative to respecs how do you guys feel about character sales for ISK, with an AUR transaction fee paid by the buyer? Best PvE idea ever!
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1339	Posted - 2014.05.17 18:57:00 - [474] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Cross Atu wrote: All of that being said, a one time only free respec coming out of the Academy seems reasonable, as does the occasional allowance of SP reallocation in the face of any total skill tree overhaul/the outright removal of specific skills, but such cases should be vanishingly rare and certainly not a planned recurring feature. 0.02 ISK Cross This I agree. A one-time respec after graduating from the Academy should be the extent of it. 2-5 million SP seems to be the common metric everyone is going by for this case. I actually think 2-5M SP of Academy as we know it carries the risk of "ADV-stomping" if you will. Let's remember that accruing 1,5M SP takes the better part of your first month unless you consistently cap out/boost. That's the critical first weeks during which players develop basic muscle memory, get a first STD/ADV fitting and get an overall grasp on tactics/teamplay. These few weeks can create a quite significant power disparity to the detriment of the newest players so the academy should really not extend beyond a few days average playtime or have very stringent metalevel limitations so that players are at least very closely matched with equally geared players. That's where i think the metalevel concept can and ought to shine. Assuming SP buildup works identical to how it does right now, which it most likely won't of course. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1011	Posted - 2014.05.17 19:13:00 - [475] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: [quote=Jonny D Buelle][quote=Heinz Doofenshertz][quote=CCP Z] .... Respec & Remap discussion CCP Z and other respec/remap posters... What are your thoughts on introducing an attribute type system into Legion? The attribute mechanic is a tried and true staple of MMO, RPG, and many FPS games. This could be a nice way of increasing depth and choice into the system. The way the EVE system uses attributes to accelerate skill learning (or perhaps in our case skill specific SP) could be a useful start point. Attributes could also be a nice way to have some passive bonuses that are agnostic of suit, role, module introduced. Example...you could build up a "strength / conditioning" type attribute that gave mild buffs to base speed, climbing, jumping, and perhaps lowered armor encumbrance penalty. This would be independent of the traditional Biotics skill branch. You could easily extrapolate for other applicable uses such as weapon accuracy, stamina, accelerated learning of specific skills. Thoughts on applicability to progression in Legion? "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1011	Posted - 2014.05.17 19:20:00 - [476] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: As an alternative to respecs how do you guys feel about character sales for ISK, with an AUR transaction fee paid by the buyer? Big fan of this idea. It's a staple of the in game creativity and entrepreneurship of EVE players and offers some interesting options for monetization in and out of game. To be clear...I don't know that if can replace respec options within the envisioned system. I certainly think it can, and should, give players options to access certain skills and roles without them personally doing the grind...essentially compensating someone lee for the grind. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1325	Posted - 2014.05.17 19:50:00 - [477] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: Kevall Longstride wrote: Actually Z has already posted in the positive in regard to the ISIS question. I know we've had a few disagreements in this discussion. I drafted up a progression proposal and made a thread. The goal is to retain the depth of the existing system but make it more accessible for new players. As the CEO of the most well-known and respected organizations for training new players, and as a CPM 1 candidate, I would really appreciate any feedback you might have. You would probably have some unique and useful insights. I've posted in there now Vell0cet. Sorry it took so long. o7 Now of to Maken Tosch's... CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Starfire Revo DUST University Ivy League 254	Posted - 2014.05.17 19:51:00 - [478] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: As an alternative to respecs how do you guys feel about character sales for ISK, with an AUR transaction fee paid by the buyer? Wouldn't work as well in a free to play game as there would be little to nothing preventing someone from making 100+ characters and passively letting them skill up. Aeon Amadi wrote: I know a lot of people are saying that "modules/weapons shouldn't be locked behind roles" but honestly, I can't see much of a reason you'd need Profile Dampeners and Myrofibril Stimulants on a Sentinel xD Due to the Sentinel's high base melee damage, it's actually a good option to put 2x Myofibrils on a suit if you're running a Forge Gun. This gives you the ability to instantly kill scouts who get too close. Putting 2x Dampeners on a heavy frame allows you to be immune to vehicle scans, standard gal logi scans, advanced scanners, most scouts with no precision mods and most medium frames that don't have at least 2 precision mods. It's a viable way to fill 2 low slots if you're looking to surprise any of the above. I make videos of EVE and Dust http://www.youtube.com/mrgimbleb I write about EVE and Dust http://mrgimbleb.blogspot.com
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1325	Posted - 2014.05.17 20:18:00 - [479] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Since we're on the topic of Progression and it's a very hot topic from the looks of it, I have a proposal that CCP Z should read up on. Project Legion Skill Progression Proposal - By Maken Tosch It's probably not as elaborate as others have posted, but it's a proposal that I feel needs attention, particularly CCP Z's. It would be nice to compare our ideas to see how much of us are on the same page. Also, my proposal comes with a twist. Hope you like it. Some nice ideas there Maken. I do like the notion of the academy skill giving some sort of bonus however the reduction of the training cost modifier reduced is troubling to me as the TCM is required to make longer term specialisation an SP sink for the vets. A reduction in that will reduce the depth of the tree while decreasing its height if you catch my meaning. However, your proposal suffered from the same problem that the current one has, in that its rather daunting to begin with for a new player when they should be encouraged to try as much as possible with no major concerns as to their SP expenditure. Those concerns should come later once they have discovered which role they like and want to specialise in. The game would then begin to offer larger rewards for such specialisation. CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 521	Posted - 2014.05.17 20:59:00 - [480] - Quote I had the impression from some of the interviews, articles, and presentations that a dissenting faction within CCP wished to toss out the core values (long term persistence in New Eden) and instead emphasize the newness of Legion as a "Fresh Start" on the Eve FPS. They were intentionally vague, to test the waters (sunk by orders from the top), and they will still want to push ahead with dramatic changes so they can market the 'new greatness' in a move typical of EA...slap a 2 on the end of the name and sell it again. We all agree it needed work, but all the secrecy, NDAs, and lack transparency are testing my faith in CCP to actually deliver on the Eve Forever vision. There will be bullets. ACR+SMG [CEO of Terror]

Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2313	Posted - 2014.05.17 21:13:00 - [481] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: It's not for the sake of a few idiots as some as stated, it's for quite a lot of idiots (your terminology there). They've researched and identified with their own numbers short comings in the current system, both in the progression system and the NPE. Questioning the findings of the research because it happens to not agree with your view isn't going to alter the Dev teams trust in its findings either. Besides, I think we can all agree, that nearly everyone on this thread, defending Z or not has highlighted shortcomings in the current system. Very unusually, Z has opened this up to public discussion a lot earlier than they normally would. And he has answered a lot questions already, liked a number of your suggestions, clarified a number points of confusion and explained his thinking on others. Insulting him or questioning his competence is up to you. If I want someone to bend to my way of thinking, I've found that calling them names rarely works. He's still working on it. Its a work in progress. Please consider that. Do you really think that people would quit because of the skill system? LOL click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2030	Posted - 2014.05.17 21:33:00 - [482] - Quote Leeroy Gannarsein wrote: TrueXer0z wrote: KDR in the game means next to nothing, but WP and ISK efficiency means a lot. When you can field 100k isk on the field and destroy 2 million worth of isk..it should mean something. Same with WPs. If you average 1500+ WP per match is should mean something compared to someone averaging 900-1000 WPs. The only real thing I see KDR showing is the likelyhood of a person draining clone count. But if that person is enabling the team to win by removing high value targets from the field...where is the break away? While to a certain (okay, significant) extent this is true, when I'm playing solo, as I have been doing for a while now, I play ambush solely. And in ambush, KDR = everything. Actually even in pure ambush KDR still isn't everything, or even an accurate directly useful metric. Example 1: A merc in Ambush who dies 10 times kills 5 times and is revived 10 times has a poor KDR but has cost the team 0 clones, has lost 0 ISK, has contributed to squad WP earnings and has depleted some hostile ammunition and time. A merc driven by KDR to insta-bleed who dies even just twice has already cost the team more resources. Example 2: A merc that spends the whole game providing DS deployment, Active scans, nanohives, reps, or any other support activity could easily end up with a KDR of 0.0 while still providing more WP, ISK savings, vicariously contributing to hostile asset destruction et al than a merc who goes 10/0 only killing. Example 3: A merc that goes 2/3 doesn't have a very good KDR but if those 2 kills are against ADS, Mads, or G-Logi and said merc has also been suppressing them the rest of the game that merc contributes more to tactical value, ISK efficiency, et al than many infantry with higher KDR. In conclusion:]/b] KDR is far to vague, it's meaning far to situation and 'blurry', to be a directly useful metric and should be replaced by the array of more specific metrics which it can theoretically represent. It should at the absolute [b]minimum not be used in end of match leaderboards, the current practice of which feeds new players the a host of misconceptions which can cause sub-optimal game play damaging to squad, team, match outcome, and ultimate their own and everyone elses fun as they repeat ineffective actions without understanding why those actions don't bring victory. It is bad pratice to mislead players, and KDR does that. 0.02 ISK Cross SupportSP Rollover & an improved Recruting System
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2313	Posted - 2014.05.17 21:37:00 - [483] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Since we're on the topic of Progression and it's a very hot topic from the looks of it, I have a proposal that CCP Z should read up on. Project Legion Skill Progression Proposal - By Maken Tosch It's probably not as elaborate as others have posted, but it's a proposal that I feel needs attention, particularly CCP Z's. It would be nice to compare our ideas to see how much of us are on the same page. Also, my proposal comes with a twist. Hope you like it. Maken, so there is no T I frames, only T II frames? Huh. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2313	Posted - 2014.05.17 21:44:00 - [484] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: The current skill system we have works to a certain extent but has it's obvious problems. 1/3/5 is bad. Items should be unlocked at 1 and every point after should provide a bonus. Why is this difficult? Guess you were so angry you completely missed the part where they practically described the system being exactly like this. He said there would only be 1 level to each skill...... click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2313	Posted - 2014.05.17 21:45:00 - [485] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: The current skill system we have works to a certain extent but has it's obvious problems. 1/3/5 is bad. Items should be unlocked at 1 and every point after should provide a bonus. Why is this difficult? Guess you were so angry you completely missed the part where they practically described the system being exactly like this. That's usually what happens in a 23-page thread. EDIT: Woops! 24 pages now. EDIT2: My only concern about the new progression system is that I would be forced into training up a suit I don't want for a weapon that I like. That to me is an even bigger SP sink than what Dust currently has. Not really. Guy said that it would be really easy to get stuff and that most of your SP investment in the early-game would be spent on unlocks, not so much bonuses. I like to think that once you get to the racial bit (since it's Academy > Frame > Role > Racial > Specialization) you're focusing more on fine-tuning and turning your dials than you are setting everything up. Making your playstyle more powerful as opposed to getting stuff for it. What with a system where you don't have to get Dropsuit Command 3 > Amarr Heavy 3 > Amarr Sentinel 1, it seems like it'd be a hell of a lot easier to blaze through to the suit you want and then focus on all the extra stuff. I know a lot of people are saying that "modules/weapons shouldn't be locked behind roles" but honestly, I can't see much of a reason you'd need Profile Dampeners and Myrofibril Stimulants on a Sentinel xD Big problem I see right now is that people are so angry, they're not doing their research/reading to find the answers. I mean, there is a "First Dev Post" button in the upper right and then you can just click on the blue banners to go to the next one =P Z said that getting things would be a lot longer than it was before........... click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8636	Posted - 2014.05.17 21:48:00 - [486] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Since we're on the topic of Progression and it's a very hot topic from the looks of it, I have a proposal that CCP Z should read up on. Project Legion Skill Progression Proposal - By Maken Tosch It's probably not as elaborate as others have posted, but it's a proposal that I feel needs attention, particularly CCP Z's. It would be nice to compare our ideas to see how much of us are on the same page. Also, my proposal comes with a twist. Hope you like it. Some nice ideas there Maken. I do like the notion of the academy skill giving some sort of bonus however the reduction of the training cost modifier reduced is troubling to me as the TCM is required to make longer term specialisation an SP sink for the vets. A reduction in that will reduce the depth of the tree while decreasing its height if you catch my meaning. However, your proposal suffered from the same problem that the current one has, in that its rather daunting to begin with for a new player when they should be encouraged to try as much as possible with no major concerns as to their SP expenditure. Those concerns should come later once they have discovered which role they like and want to specialise in. The game would then begin to offer larger rewards for such specialisation. That's why my proposal included a more in-depth academy so that the new player can try out everything via the academy without investing too much SP into just trial and error. If you help the player better understand the system, then there is hardly a problem in understanding the progression. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2313	Posted - 2014.05.17 21:54:00 - [487] - Quote Z, for the game's sake, you're taking in all of this...... click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2030	Posted - 2014.05.17 22:02:00 - [488] - Quote CCP Z wrote: 1st batch of answers: Quote: Can whatever system you put in place be change after launch ,like the 3 different trees we had from beta till now in Dust? We are trying to create the best system for Legion, so I would say no. I would respectfully suggest to my fellow gamers that this is why we should be constructively participating in the discussion of Legion right now rather than waiting for it to be greenlit, in beta, et al. Quote: Quote: With a PC game can't you do both the new easy progression and keep the lvl 5 system so we can just get what we want since we know what we want. Yes we could keep the 5 levels. From the studies and the research we made on DUST, people seems to not understand it. ThatGÇÖs why we want to remove it. Do you feel it is necessary to remove all levels of skill progression or simply the 5 level standard? Clearly there were some wasted levels in the current system, and while I enjoy the current system it is evident how such a system could present a barrier to new players. With the progression system presented at Fanfest do you see any room for certain skills to either have more than one level or have offshoots providing additional nodes that would in essence function like further levels of the skill but go only so far as they are actually useful (thus removing the potential for miscalculated SP investment or pressure to shoehorn extra stats into a skill set which has served it's design goal? SupportSP Rollover & an improved Recruting System
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2030	Posted - 2014.05.17 22:03:00 - [489] - Quote pt 2 Quote: Quote: Are the weapons of each dropsuit tree race specific as Gallentee have Assault rifle but no scrambler or rail rifle? No, weapon types will be linked to Role and not necessarily Race. You will end up with 2 different Rail Rifle depending on the race though. Just to reiterate fully however, once unlocked those weapons can be used in any fit/with any suit so regardless of race or role correct? (with the possible exception of special cases such has Heavy Weapons) Quote: Quote: Will electronics and engineering skills still that bring those numbers as cpu and pg still be in the game? Yes Quote: how will you implement passive skills and bonuses? They will be a node to unlock (same as a new weapon, Drop Suit or module) Good to know passive skills and fittings enhancement options are still on the table. SupportSP Rollover & an improved Recruting System
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2030	Posted - 2014.05.17 22:04:00 - [490] - Quote pt 3 CCP Z wrote: Respec will have a gradually increasing cost, so your choices matter Not to be disrespectful but I'm going to continue to be insistent on this point of discussion. Even with increasing costs, especially of those costs only increase gradually, limitless respecs are still limitless and as such all of my prior concerns are still unanswered. If there is a method on offer which theoretically addresses those concerns then I would still like to hear it, but in the absence of that limitless respecs seem to remain a very poor idea. As an aside; the cost in question if such a respec program were ever to ender the game clearly coudl not be in IRL funds or Legion will be swimming in the rocky shoals of P2W. If on the other hand the cost in question is paied in SP itself that would have some potential mitigation however it still fails to sidestep the extra advantage it gives vets over new players. Further I'd like to draw your attention back to my specific questions regarding how respecs will effect the stated goals of your progression system and the NPE. All balance and re-balance concerns aside (which could be a discussion on their own) limitless respecs stifle emergent game play. There is no reason to find a new innovative use for something when you can simply reallocate your massive SP bank into whatever you wish. There is no, or minimal, stable baseline for a meta to develop and draw from. There is no mechanical barrier to 'boom and bust' economic cycles within the game causing market shocks and diminishing meaningful player driven economics. Using EVE as an example (even though EVE:O isn't a direct corollary) if you allowed the same type of respec then characters could allocate to research, mine, produce and then fly their own Titan not only gutting current incentive for social interaction (and thus player retention and emergent game play) but deeply disadvantaging any new players to the game as they will no longer have any niche to fill of value to any "I can do anything with the click of a button" veterans. Lest we be unclear the possible respec costs are as follows; Out of game assets, which would lead Legion into a P2W situation In game assets, which would be no meaningful barrier to vets thus magnifying the degradation respecs cause to the NPE and new player retention. In game SP, which if based on a raw total value punishes players with low SP total more for using the feature than it does those with high. In game SP, which if based on a scaling % value more equally constrains players at all levels but still allows far more flex and leverage to vets who can simply calculate the amount of SP to leave unallocated as the cost of their next respec and bank that amount patch by patch thus still feeding into all market and FotM concerns mentioned previously. Cheers, Cross SupportSP Rollover & an improved Recruting System

Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 1991	Posted - 2014.05.17 23:48:00 - [491] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Cross Atu wrote: [quote=Jonny D Buelle][quote=Heinz Doofenshertz][quote=CCP Z] .... Respec & Remap discussion CCP Z and other respec/remap posters... What are your thoughts on introducing an attribute type system into Legion? The attribute mechanic is a tried and true staple of MMO, RPG, and many FPS games. This could be a nice way of increasing depth and choice into the system. The way the EVE system uses attributes to accelerate skill learning (or perhaps in our case skill specific SP) could be a useful start point. Attributes could also be a nice way to have some passive bonuses that are agnostic of suit, role, module introduced. Example...you could build up a "strength / conditioning" type attribute that gave mild buffs to base speed, climbing, jumping, and perhaps lowered armor encumbrance penalty. This would be independent of the traditional Biotics skill branch. You could easily extrapolate for other applicable uses such as weapon accuracy, stamina, accelerated learning of specific skills. Thoughts on applicability to progression in Legion? I brought up Attributes back in Closed Beta. I thought they were a good idea then and I still do. We should get the same Attributes as Eve characters (plus Strength, Dexterity and Stamina for obvious reason). Arzadu Akbar Motherfuckers!!!! Closed Beta Bittervet Bomber
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2315	Posted - 2014.05.18 00:07:00 - [492] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: I brought up Attributes back in Closed Beta. I thought they were a good idea then and I still do. We should get the same Attributes as Eve characters (plus Strength, Dexterity and Stamina for obvious reason). Same, and same. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1015	Posted - 2014.05.18 01:53:00 - [493] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: I brought up Attributes back in Closed Beta. I thought they were a good idea then and I still do. We should get the same Attributes as Eve characters (plus Strength, Dexterity and Stamina for obvious reason). Same, and same. Seems doable and would give some added depth to things. Curious to here if CCP Z thinks they could be incorporated. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2317	Posted - 2014.05.18 02:04:00 - [494] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: I brought up Attributes back in Closed Beta. I thought they were a good idea then and I still do. We should get the same Attributes as Eve characters (plus Strength, Dexterity and Stamina for obvious reason). Same, and same. Seems doable and would give some added depth to things. Curious to here if CCP Z thinks they could be incorporated. He thinks the fools wouldn't get it click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1015	Posted - 2014.05.18 02:05:00 - [495] - Quote One thing i didn't see addressed too much was the concept of Social or even something like Research type skills in Legion. With the advent of salvage missions, PVE, and perhaps mission running then a skill branch similar to Social Skills in EVE. Basically SP unlock or level nodes that generate bonuses to faction standings, ISK / LP payouts, salvage payouts, buffs to dealing with NPC entities. Seems like a skill branch that would assist in emphasizing the financial and PVE aspects of Legion. Also...i think it would go a ways to giving some potential options to give you some enticing options (perhaps down the road) to more sandbox activity than purely shooting players and drones. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2317	Posted - 2014.05.18 02:17:00 - [496] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: One thing i didn't see addressed too much was the concept of Social or even something like Research type skills in Legion. With the advent of salvage missions, PVE, and perhaps mission running then a skill branch similar to Social Skills in EVE. Basically SP unlock or level nodes that generate bonuses to faction standings, ISK / LP payouts, salvage payouts, buffs to dealing with NPC entities. Seems like a skill branch that would assist in emphasizing the financial and PVE aspects of Legion. Also...i think it would go a ways to giving some potential options to give you some enticing options (perhaps down the road) to more sandbox activity than purely shooting players and drones. or pirates, cops, soldiers, religious zealots, zombies, etc. I kinda rounded this into a "other skills that would be odd with this system" as it doesn't fit anywhere tbh........... click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
DAMIOS82 WarRavens Final Resolution. 117	Posted - 2014.05.18 09:19:00 - [497] - Quote Personally i would like to see a full view of what CCP Z want's to do to the Skill tree first. I did see the keynotes and imo it is a better step to go with. The current skill system is broken and alott of it is useless and doesn't make sence. Levels for one is something i hate in EVE aswell. If i skill into something i either want to have it or not, i can either use it or not. Offcourse every level gives a better bonus now, but imo i should be based on having better equipment and not bonusses, hence the meta levels (which is completely useless now in dust) . To have permanent dropsuits makes a lott of sence if you want to be able to have cosmetic upgrades and from a roleplaying perspective aswell. I would like to make my suit personall and say this is me, not lose it every 2 seconds after i upgraded it. Having weapons under role specific is a good idea, but then you should make them that they are unique to those suits. meaning if you want an AR type weapon for ass, logi, hvy each would have there own type of AR. Offcourse the rest still needs to be seen and imo change is not bad. Afterall in beta they cried about the skill tree aswell and it all worked out in the end. That beeing said i don't believe you should dumb down the skill tree however. Sure it's a different game then EVE, however it is in the EVE universe and EVE is know for beeing complex. So this should also be reflected in our skill tree, meaning we want more, not less (like skills to enhance the suits(extra module bay) or weapons(scope selection, better magazine). If CCP want to change it all and see how it works out, then fine i have no problem with it, but ad more skills not less. Perhaps even some options for customisation of weapons like i said above.
Hammerhead LandSharkX Liberum Sapiens Xenodochi 31	Posted - 2014.05.18 10:36:00 - [498] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: As an alternative to respecs how do you guys feel about character sales for ISK, with an AUR transaction fee paid by the buyer? That's how eve gets away with not having respecs-but i think that would be hard to migrate to PSN and the like if legion is ever ported. Though if they can build it into the game I'm not against it. Though Starfire Revo makes a good point with: "Wouldn't work as well in a free to play game as there would be little to nothing preventing someone from making 100+ characters and passively letting them skill up." Eve's subscription at least mitigates this tactic and forces these methods to be of a certain quality and value to be worth while. Eve's market also makes this work with the variety of training that is available for trade-rather than having a flat isk/aur rate for character swapping-players can choose how much isk/plex/etc they trade for individually.
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 2797	Posted - 2014.05.18 15:10:00 - [499] - Quote Please do not add grind without a purpose. Please keep the monetization to only offer faster progress, and perhaps account wide bonuses (for your alts). As a example to study I recommend CCP Z to look at: https://marvelheroes.com/ This message was brought to you by the PC master race.
Shley Ashes Commando Perkone Caldari State 149	Posted - 2014.05.18 15:36:00 - [500] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Days later and I still don't like the concept of this proposed progression system for pretty much every reason people have posted. I'm definitely getting the classic CCP Dust Development vibe of "we're going to do what we want on this with the illusion of feedback." The current skill system we have works to a certain extent but has it's obvious problems. 1/3/5 is bad. Items should be unlocked at 1 and every point after should provide a bonus. Why is this difficult? The idea that "there's too much choice" is simply silly. Yes, at first there is a bit too much choice but this can be remedied by a certification system similar to eve's. It can give you an idea of a "vanilla" role and you can go from there. You guys seem so ridiculously deadset on the idea that your players are idiots and it's insulting. Part of the biggest problem of NPE is that they don't know where to put their SP to make a decent build and also that weapons are incredibly imbalanced. We want depth and customization, not progression on rails until you hit end game. Stop trying to reinvent the progression and just fix the problems the current system has and make sure weapons and suits are balanced properly. This... Devs that come from different games judging and changing things they don't understand while telling the community that they, thr community, is wrong in the feedback page. This is not what CCP is about. Ylthis is a complete defilement of 10 years of tried and tested systems not to mention one of the only reasons dust had a fighting chance. Changing the skill system will kill legion and any chance ut has at longevity. Cyrius and Ghaz echo my own view here, I am deeply concerned and if the current Fanfest presentation on progression and the snippets of information that have been laid out so far are anything to go by, then I don't see myself playing Legion, Three things lured me to Dust: 1) I enjoy FPS games 2) Hope - that the game would evolve over time to be as grand as Eve Online 3) A progression system that allowed me to build fit's with more customisation than any other FPS on the market point 3 has now been reduced to that of a standard Role based shooter like BattleField or Call of Duty Kevall Longstride wrote: I'll of course be a strong voice for the players and do everything I can to help them in the CPM or not. But right now, on this issue, I have to be on CCP's side because the long term future of the game is at stake here. If that makes me unpopular so be it. If it loses me your vote, so be it. But I will not back down from what I know to be the right thing to do. you have lost my vote For 21 day EveOnline trial https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=0f1324bf-679c-420a-b7ed-c181423c1369&action=buddy

Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 521	Posted - 2014.05.18 16:39:00 - [501] - Quote I would feel a lot better if the details and research were published. I would love to criticize the PS3 sample set who prove our current progression system will be broken on a PC MMO with actual MMO PvE options. My guess is a lot of things are going to be decided in secret, with a laser focus on profitability. There will be bullets. ACR+SMG [CEO of Terror]
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1664	Posted - 2014.05.18 17:09:00 - [502] - Quote I'm getting tired of this. We played DUST 514 because it was different from other FPS games, not because it was the same. Not sure why CCP seems so keen on removing some of the things that kept DUST 514 alive. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8641	Posted - 2014.05.18 17:45:00 - [503] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: I'm getting tired of this. We played DUST 514 because it was different from other FPS games, not because it was the same. Not sure why CCP seems so keen on removing some of the things that kept DUST 514 alive. It's certain at this point that one of the very few things that kept Dust alive was the complexity it offered. What killed it was the lack of understanding that complexity. There were absolutely NO TOOLS in place to aid the player in better understanding the progression system let alone understand the myriad of complex mechanics that were not immediately apparent. No, I'm not talking about the 3rd party tools. I'm talking about in-game tools. 3rd party tools are great but there is no way for the new player to know for certain that those tools exist unless they visit the forums which brings me to my next point. According to Dennie Fleetfoot (since he often gets in touch with CCP) it seems that the vast majority of the players that exist in the game don't really visit the forums... at all. If I recall correctly it was like somewhere in the neighborhood of 75-85% of the player base. That's a huge chunk of the players that don't read the forums at all. That means: 1. They won't know of any of the 3rd party tools available to them right now at this moment. 2. They won't know of any of the incoming changes that are happening to Dust which means they also don't know that Dust is now on the back burner of development as a result of Project Legion. This is why Dennie switched gears and focused mainly on sending out in-game mails to the D-Uni members compared to posting on the forums. This way, especially considering that Dust University is among some of the largest corps out there at the moment, the information about anything happening to Dust can be disseminated to a much wider audience effectively to those who never frequent the forums. Now if you happen to be one of those people who go out of their way to ignore EVERY piece of mail sent to you, then obviously there is no hope in informing you. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2322	Posted - 2014.05.18 18:31:00 - [504] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: I'm getting tired of this. We played DUST 514 because it was different from other FPS games, not because it was the same. Not sure why CCP seems so keen on removing some of the things that kept DUST 514 alive. It's certain at this point that one of the very few things that kept Dust alive was the complexity it offered. What killed it was the lack of understanding that complexity. There were absolutely NO TOOLS in place to aid the player in better understanding the progression system let alone understand the myriad of complex mechanics that were not immediately apparent. No, I'm not talking about the 3rd party tools. I'm talking about in-game tools. 3rd party tools are great but there is no way for the new player to know for certain that those tools exist unless they visit the forums which brings me to my next point. According to Dennie Fleetfoot (since he often gets in touch with CCP) it seems that the vast majority of the players that exist in the game don't really visit the forums... at all. If I recall correctly it was like somewhere in the neighborhood of 75-85% of the player base. That's a huge chunk of the players that don't read the forums at all. That means: 1. They won't know of any of the 3rd party tools available to them right now at this moment. 2. They won't know of any of the incoming changes that are happening to Dust which means they also don't know that Dust is now on the back burner of development as a result of Project Legion. This is why Dennie switched gears and focused mainly on sending out in-game mails to the D-Uni members compared to posting on the forums. This way, especially considering that Dust University is among some of the largest corps out there at the moment, the information about anything happening to Dust can be disseminated to a much wider audience effectively to those who never frequent the forums. Now if you happen to be one of those people who go out of their way to ignore EVERY piece of mail sent to you, then obviously there is no hope in informing you. Agreed. YOu know, I think we are starting to sound like a broken record lol click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2322	Posted - 2014.05.18 18:35:00 - [505] - Quote Pyrex finally made a good point (lol), and that is that is that it seems as though CCP Z is trying to bring in his views from another company into CCP, and is trying to turn Legion more into what they had; he's not tuned to what New Eden is all about, and what our expectations is for it. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8643	Posted - 2014.05.18 18:49:00 - [506] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: Agreed. YOu know, I think we are starting to sound like a broken record lol Hey, I'm not a broken record. I'm not a broken record. I'm not a broken record. I'm not a broken record. broken record. broken record. broken record. broken record. record. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1330	Posted - 2014.05.18 19:14:00 - [507] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: I'm getting tired of this. We played DUST 514 because it was different from other FPS games, not because it was the same. Not sure why CCP seems so keen on removing some of the things that kept DUST 514 alive. It's certain at this point that one of the very few things that kept Dust alive was the complexity it offered. What killed it was the lack of understanding that complexity. There were absolutely NO TOOLS in place to aid the player in better understanding the progression system let alone understand the myriad of complex mechanics that were not immediately apparent. No, I'm not talking about the 3rd party tools. I'm talking about in-game tools. 3rd party tools are great but there is no way for the new player to know for certain that those tools exist unless they visit the forums which brings me to my next point. According to Dennie Fleetfoot (since he often gets in touch with CCP) it seems that the vast majority of the players that exist in the game don't really visit the forums... at all. If I recall correctly it was like somewhere in the neighborhood of 75-85% of the player base. That's a huge chunk of the players that don't read the forums at all. That means: 1. They won't know of any of the 3rd party tools available to them right now at this moment. 2. They won't know of any of the incoming changes that are happening to Dust which means they also don't know that Dust is now on the back burner of development as a result of Project Legion. This is why Dennie switched gears and focused mainly on sending out in-game mails to the D-Uni members compared to posting on the forums. This way, especially considering that Dust University is among some of the largest corps out there at the moment, the information about anything happening to Dust can be disseminated to a much wider audience effectively to those who never frequent the forums. Now if you happen to be one of those people who go out of their way to ignore EVERY piece of mail sent to you, then obviously there is no hope in informing you. It's actually less than 10% of the actively playing player base that has used these forums ever, and even less than that figure that post more than once a week. Thats what I've been told anyway by the Dev's and I've no reason to not believe them. So it's a dangerous for anyone (including myself I'll be the first to admit) to claim to be speaking for the majority when 90% of them don't even vocalise in or visit the forums. So when anyone says majority, the very best level of support they can ever claim to have is a majority of the 10% that come here. As to the tools question, right now the only way I can ensure that new starters get as much information as possible is to send them it directly to their game mailbox. So right now I have to send each new member to D-UNI 30 training 101's emails.... EACH. Been doing that since the beginning of the year and the retention rate for brand new starters has doubled. But you can imagine the maths and workload.... Even with the mails already written and waiting to be forwarded, I still have to add the recipients to the 'To" box Average of 10-15 applications to D-UNI each day. 300-450 mails a day..... 54,000/81,000 emails since the beginning of the year from my Eve account. Because the mail system of Eve is deliberately slowed to prevent spam it can take over an hour each day to send them all. 180 days = 180 hours = 7 and a half days JUST sending emails since the beginning of this year.. I think you all might be beginning to realise just how important it is to me that we have a more friendly and intuitive progression system. CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8644	Posted - 2014.05.18 19:18:00 - [508] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: /warning... math incoming HOLY CRAP! WTF? On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1330	Posted - 2014.05.18 19:26:00 - [509] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Kevall Longstride wrote: /warning... math incoming HOLY CRAP! WTF? Word CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1665	Posted - 2014.05.18 19:31:00 - [510] - Quote As someone else mentioned earlier in this thread, certificates are a valid option. Certificates could be sets of skills that, if you don't quite understand the skill tree, would allow for a much simpler guideline by which to train skills. Combine this with something akin to ISIS and you have a recipe for simplicity itself. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.

ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 2945	Posted - 2014.05.18 19:37:00 - [511] - Quote I still don't see why going from Powergrid Upgrades (1-5) would be so bad compared to Powergrid Upgrades (1) - (2) - (3) - (4) - (5). You have more flexibility to add more or less levels as well. Imagine if proficiency was split into 15 levels at 1% instead of 5 levels at 3%? You can choose to go to level 11 or 13 or whatever. More resolution = more items skill into = more sense of progression. Profiency 5 is 777k SP in Dust iirc (as a x5 skill). For most people that is 3-4 weeks of playing with no progress. That's just such a bummer and its not nearly as fun as having 15 levels that you skill into every couple days. Each level is a smaller increment of progress but most players would feel better pushing through it. I personally can see so many reasons to move away from the 5 level system. A node-based system sounds like it could be so superior in so many ways. UI-wise you can also directly add what items unlock in any specific node. So players can see exactly what they are getting every time they buy something.
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1331	Posted - 2014.05.18 19:38:00 - [512] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: As someone else mentioned earlier in this thread, certificates are a valid option. Certificates could be sets of skills that, if you don't quite understand the skill tree, would allow for a much simpler guideline by which to train skills. Combine this with something akin to ISIS and you have a recipe for simplicity itself. But I'd still have to send another mail to explain the certificates.... CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1665	Posted - 2014.05.18 19:41:00 - [513] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: As someone else mentioned earlier in this thread, certificates are a valid option. Certificates could be sets of skills that, if you don't quite understand the skill tree, would allow for a much simpler guideline by which to train skills. Combine this with something akin to ISIS and you have a recipe for simplicity itself. But I'd still have to send another mail to explain the certificates.... If new players can't even understand something so simple, you probably have bigger problems than that. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 2945	Posted - 2014.05.18 19:49:00 - [514] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: Kevall Longstride wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: As someone else mentioned earlier in this thread, certificates are a valid option. Certificates could be sets of skills that, if you don't quite understand the skill tree, would allow for a much simpler guideline by which to train skills. Combine this with something akin to ISIS and you have a recipe for simplicity itself. But I'd still have to send another mail to explain the certificates.... If new players can't even understand something so simple, you probably have bigger problems than that. I don't find certificates to be all that helpful in EVE myself... I suspect most new players would skip certs in Legion like they skip the text based tutorial in Dust. A well designed system should be self explanatory... imo at least.
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1331	Posted - 2014.05.18 19:52:00 - [515] - Quote ^ that CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1665	Posted - 2014.05.18 19:58:00 - [516] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: Kevall Longstride wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: As someone else mentioned earlier in this thread, certificates are a valid option. Certificates could be sets of skills that, if you don't quite understand the skill tree, would allow for a much simpler guideline by which to train skills. Combine this with something akin to ISIS and you have a recipe for simplicity itself. But I'd still have to send another mail to explain the certificates.... If new players can't even understand something so simple, you probably have bigger problems than that. I don't find certificates to be all that helpful in EVE myself... I suspect most new players would skip certs in Legion like they skip the text based tutorial in Dust. A well designed system should be self explanatory... imo at least. Certificates not helpful? I object! They are helpful, especially in conjunction with ISIS. Certificates would ostensibly be more useful in Legion, as you wouldn't even have to take heed of the skills within the certificates. Just spend skillpoints on the certificates, and it would automatically assign them to the necessary skills. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
Hammerhead LandSharkX Liberum Sapiens Xenodochi 33	Posted - 2014.05.18 20:14:00 - [517] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: But I'd still have to send another mail to explain the certificates.... If you have to send mails out to explain certificates you'd have to send just as much out to explain Z's tree. Certs and Z's progression could look and function the exact same way. Equal understanding but difference in that one would be optional. ZDub 303 wrote: I don't find certificates to be all that helpful in EVE myself... I suspect most new players would skip certs in Legion like they skip the text based tutorial in Dust. A well designed system should be self explanatory... imo at least. Z's system isn't self exploratory-it removes the need for explanation by forcing you down a path to a role rather than explaining the roles before you choose. Limiting options and the ability to make your own role from the beginning =/= explaining anything better...it's just giving you less ways to skrew up. Ulysses Knapse wrote: Certificates would ostensibly be more useful in Legion, as you wouldn't even have to take heed of the skills within the certificates. Just spend skillpoints on the certificates, and it would automatically assign them to the necessary skills. yup.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8645	Posted - 2014.05.18 20:35:00 - [518] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: Kevall Longstride wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: As someone else mentioned earlier in this thread, certificates are a valid option. Certificates could be sets of skills that, if you don't quite understand the skill tree, would allow for a much simpler guideline by which to train skills. Combine this with something akin to ISIS and you have a recipe for simplicity itself. But I'd still have to send another mail to explain the certificates.... If new players can't even understand something so simple, you probably have bigger problems than that. I don't find certificates to be all that helpful in EVE myself... I suspect most new players would skip certs in Legion like they skip the text based tutorial in Dust. A well designed system should be self explanatory... imo at least. For the record, CCP has removed the certificate system from Eve Online and replaced it with ISIS. The Interbus Ship Identification System alone does a much better job at explaining the roles of the ships in Eve than what the certificates could accomplish. The certificates were helpful in helping everyone figure out which skill books should be trained for what role. They were not effective in giving out a clear picture of what ship can do what and how to use it even though they had a tab listing the ships these certificates are best used on. The ISIS solved that problem by giving it a visual representation of the skill progression using the ships as markers in a tree. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 2945	Posted - 2014.05.18 20:41:00 - [519] - Quote Hammerhead LandSharkX wrote: Z's system isn't self exploratory-it removes the need for explanation by forcing you down a path to a role rather than explaining the roles before you choose. Limiting options and the ability to make your own role from the beginning =/= explaining anything better...it's just giving you less ways to skrew up. Its not really forcing you to do anything. The system may add more prerequisites for certain items but that may just be a part of the new pseudo-tiercided equipment system in general.
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2326	Posted - 2014.05.18 20:46:00 - [520] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: I'm getting tired of this. We played DUST 514 because it was different from other FPS games, not because it was the same. Not sure why CCP seems so keen on removing some of the things that kept DUST 514 alive. It's certain at this point that one of the very few things that kept Dust alive was the complexity it offered. What killed it was the lack of understanding that complexity. There were absolutely NO TOOLS in place to aid the player in better understanding the progression system let alone understand the myriad of complex mechanics that were not immediately apparent. No, I'm not talking about the 3rd party tools. I'm talking about in-game tools. 3rd party tools are great but there is no way for the new player to know for certain that those tools exist unless they visit the forums which brings me to my next point. According to Dennie Fleetfoot (since he often gets in touch with CCP) it seems that the vast majority of the players that exist in the game don't really visit the forums... at all. If I recall correctly it was like somewhere in the neighborhood of 75-85% of the player base. That's a huge chunk of the players that don't read the forums at all. That means: 1. They won't know of any of the 3rd party tools available to them right now at this moment. 2. They won't know of any of the incoming changes that are happening to Dust which means they also don't know that Dust is now on the back burner of development as a result of Project Legion. This is why Dennie switched gears and focused mainly on sending out in-game mails to the D-Uni members compared to posting on the forums. This way, especially considering that Dust University is among some of the largest corps out there at the moment, the information about anything happening to Dust can be disseminated to a much wider audience effectively to those who never frequent the forums. Now if you happen to be one of those people who go out of their way to ignore EVERY piece of mail sent to you, then obviously there is no hope in informing you. It's actually less than 10% of the actively playing player base that has used these forums ever, and even less than that figure that post more than once a week. Thats what I've been told anyway by the Dev's and I've no reason to not believe them. So it's a dangerous for anyone (including myself I'll be the first to admit) to claim to be speaking for the majority when 90% of them don't even vocalise in or visit the forums. So when anyone says majority, the very best level of support they can ever claim to have is a majority of the 10% that come here. As to the tools question, right now the only way I can ensure that new starters get as much information as possible is to send them it directly to their game mailbox. So right now I have to send each new member to D-UNI 30 training 101's emails.... EACH. Been doing that since the beginning of the year and the retention rate for brand new starters has doubled. But you can imagine the maths and workload.... Even with the mails already written and waiting to be forwarded, I still have to add the recipients to the 'To" box Average of 10-15 applications to D-UNI each day. 300-450 mails a day..... 54,000/81,000 emails since the beginning of the year from my Eve account. Because the mail system of Eve is deliberately slowed to prevent spam it can take over an hour each day to send them all. 180 days = 180 hours = 7 and a half days JUST sending emails since the beginning of this year.. I think you all might be beginning to realise just how important it is to me that we have a more friendly and intuitive progression system. You still have yet to answer my question. I think you're ignoring it on purpose....... click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-

Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2326	Posted - 2014.05.18 20:51:00 - [521] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Hammerhead LandSharkX wrote: Z's system isn't self exploratory-it removes the need for explanation by forcing you down a path to a role rather than explaining the roles before you choose. Limiting options and the ability to make your own role from the beginning =/= explaining anything better...it's just giving you less ways to skrew up. Its not really forcing you to do anything. The system may add more prerequisites for certain items but that may just be a part of the new pseudo-tiercided equipment system in general. You have to jump through all sorts of hoops to just get to one single item that you want...... Imagine having to have to go through multiple ones to get the fit that you actually want The system is flawed, as it limits creativity and freedom, the exact opposite of what New Eden is all about. I'll ask again: How is a system that limits people better than a open system that is improved upon, and then explained well? click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4211	Posted - 2014.05.18 20:56:00 - [522] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: I'm getting tired of this. We played DUST 514 because it was different from other FPS games, not because it was the same. Not sure why CCP seems so keen on removing some of the things that kept DUST 514 alive. It's certain at this point that one of the very few things that kept Dust alive was the complexity it offered. What killed it was the lack of understanding that complexity. There were absolutely NO TOOLS in place to aid the player in better understanding the progression system let alone understand the myriad of complex mechanics that were not immediately apparent. No, I'm not talking about the 3rd party tools. I'm talking about in-game tools. 3rd party tools are great but there is no way for the new player to know for certain that those tools exist unless they visit the forums which brings me to my next point. According to Dennie Fleetfoot (since he often gets in touch with CCP) it seems that the vast majority of the players that exist in the game don't really visit the forums... at all. If I recall correctly it was like somewhere in the neighborhood of 75-85% of the player base. That's a huge chunk of the players that don't read the forums at all. That means: 1. They won't know of any of the 3rd party tools available to them right now at this moment. 2. They won't know of any of the incoming changes that are happening to Dust which means they also don't know that Dust is now on the back burner of development as a result of Project Legion. This is why Dennie switched gears and focused mainly on sending out in-game mails to the D-Uni members compared to posting on the forums. This way, especially considering that Dust University is among some of the largest corps out there at the moment, the information about anything happening to Dust can be disseminated to a much wider audience effectively to those who never frequent the forums. Now if you happen to be one of those people who go out of their way to ignore EVERY piece of mail sent to you, then obviously there is no hope in informing you. I have seen no proof whatsoever that a lack of understanding the skill system plagued the majority of players. I believe they simply quit because the game was horrible and, by default, never got a chance to learn the skill system as a result.
byte modal 83	Posted - 2014.05.18 21:07:00 - [523] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: I have seen no proof whatsoever that a lack of understanding the skill system plagued the majority of players. I believe they simply quit because the game was horrible and, by default, never got a chance to learn the skill system as a result. I have seen no proof whatsoever that a horrible game resulted in players quitting due to not having a chance to learn the skill system. I believe it was a meteor that struck the earth wiping out a significant of the potential player base. ;) I'm just messing with you. Seriously though, no one has seen proof of any cause and effect relationship. We, as informed players (as informed as we can be, being players and not devs) can only speculate based on experience, common complaints, and attention to in-game or forum discussions. That's about as good as it gets here. I see something, and I try to troubleshoot it with my limited understanding of context. Maken did the same. You are doing the same. It's impossible for us all to draw the same conclusions. Instead, we take internal measurements to see what we each assume, compared to what others are assuming, and try to connect the dots as best we can. At the end of the day though, it doesn't really matter whether we're right or not. It's not our game to develop =( Irony: Post #35
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8646	Posted - 2014.05.18 21:21:00 - [524] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: I have seen no proof whatsoever that a lack of understanding the skill system plagued the majority of players. I believe they simply quit because the game was horrible and, by default, never got a chance to learn the skill system as a result. Whatever exit survey Z conducted was likely tainted. That's also part of it. But the topic of skill progression came up every now and then. Not as much as the topics of lag, broken PC mechanics, protostomping, and being put into a match in progress did, but when the topic of skill progression came up (often under the topic of respecs) it was almost always a heated debate on how it should be fixed. On the one side you had people like me saying no to respecs while advocating a more clear and concise set of tools that can aid a player in better understanding the game. This eventually brought up the idea of overhauling the academy as part of the solution. On the other side you had people saying yes to respecs simple on the basis that the skill progression system is broken and players need a chance to undo their mistakes which was the result of not being able to fully understand the skill progression. Of course another idea was allowing players to just let them play around with the SP allocation just for the fun of it (an idea often proposed by the scrubby FOTM chasers). On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Hammerhead LandSharkX Liberum Sapiens Xenodochi 33	Posted - 2014.05.18 21:24:00 - [525] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: I have seen no proof whatsoever that a lack of understanding the skill system plagued the majority of players. I believe they simply quit because the game was horrible and, by default, never got a chance to learn the skill system as a result. Whatever exit survey Z conducted was likely tainted. Can we hold back on just being Inflammatory and nonconstructive to discussion? You 'believe' they quit for a different reason and gave as much proof as they did for their reason. It doesn't matter if we see proof for whatever reasons, so long as we can understand that the game needs to improve to get more people playing and for ccp to think it's successful enough to move forward. Shouting 'consipiracy' isn't going to help-*discussing* reasons why proposed fixes/ideas/etc do or do not improve the state of things will.
Captain Crutches Nexus Marines 128	Posted - 2014.05.18 21:38:00 - [526] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: So you can imagine my reservations as to the assertions of others, that the current system is fine or just needs a bit of a tweak.... when I have to send out that much information to new players to explain it all!! If you want my .02 isk... you shouldn't be the one who has to send all those mails! The complexity of the current progression system is, IMO, less of a problem than that the NPE does virtually nothing to explain it to new players, passing the burden on to people like you. Of course we appreciate you for it, but the problem is that it's necessary in the first place. If all CCP changed was the progression system, you'd still have to send out mails to every new D-UNI member explaining it. The mails would be different, yes, and there may be fewer of them, but the burden would still be on you to do it. If CCP instead focused on making a great NPE and explaining all that info that you so painstakingly mail everyone, I think more people would understand the progression system (however complex it was) and we wouldn't have this problem. TLDR - The universally acknowledged problem is that people don't understand the progression system. But players can't be blamed for that when CCP does such a terrible job teaching them right off the bat. You yourself have shown without doubt that when someone is there to teach a newbie about the game they stick around longer. But only those that join D-UNI or another training corp get that instruction. Make a comprehensive NPE that teaches the progression system to those that need it, and then show me new data on retention and universal understanding - I bet it will be higher, and it'll give people like Dennie less work too! Legion is absolutely the right move for the future of Dust. How CCP went about revealing it is the biggest problem.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8646	Posted - 2014.05.18 21:44:00 - [527] - Quote Captain Crutches wrote: Kevall Longstride wrote: So you can imagine my reservations as to the assertions of others, that the current system is fine or just needs a bit of a tweak.... when I have to send out that much information to new players to explain it all!! If you want my .02 isk... you shouldn't be the one who has to send all those mails! The complexity of the current progression system is, IMO, less of a problem than that the NPE does virtually nothing to explain it to new players, passing the burden on to people like you. Of course we appreciate you for it, but the problem is that it's necessary in the first place. If all CCP changed was the progression system, you'd still have to send out mails to every new D-UNI member explaining it. The mails would be different, yes, and there may be fewer of them, but the burden would still be on you to do it. If CCP instead focused on making a great NPE and explaining all that info that you so painstakingly mail everyone, I think more people would understand the progression system (however complex it was) and we wouldn't have this problem. The universally acknowledged problem is that people don't understand the progression system. But players can't be blamed for that when CCP does such a terrible job teaching them right off the bat. You yourself have shown without doubt that when someone is there to teach a newbie about the game they stick around longer. But only those that join D-UNI or another training corp get that instruction. TL;DR - Make a comprehensive NPE that teaches the progression system to those that need it, and then show me new data on retention and universal understanding - I bet it will be higher, and it'll give people like Dennie less work too! Exactly. If we need someone like Dennie to constantly send out mails to new players on how to understand the system and if new players need to join a player-run corp just to understand even the most mundane things like how to turn on/off the Voice Chat of all things, then you know there is a major problem with the understanding of the skill progression itself and that of the NPE. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Starfire Revo DUST University Ivy League 259	Posted - 2014.05.18 21:45:00 - [528] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: (an idea often proposed by the scrubby FOTM chasers). This is a bit of a tangent, but people who chase the optimal way to play are actually the opposite of scrubs. FOTM wouldn't be such an issue if balance was given a higher priority. I make videos of EVE and Dust http://www.youtube.com/mrgimbleb I write about EVE and Dust http://mrgimbleb.blogspot.com
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8646	Posted - 2014.05.18 21:56:00 - [529] - Quote Starfire Revo wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: (an idea often proposed by the scrubby FOTM chasers). This is a bit of a tangent, but people who chase the optimal way to play are actually the opposite of scrubs. FOTM wouldn't be such an issue if balance was given a higher priority. Perhaps they aren't scubs then if they figured out an optimal way. But as you and me have seen first hand in Dust, a lot of those FOTM chasers end up being detrimental to the game as they often draw the attention of the "nerf-it" crowd who then often demand unwarranted nerfs to something that might not even be overpowered. I stopped counting over 2 years ago how many FOTMs we went through and how many times people asked for nerfs. Here is at least 5 I can remember from the top of my head. 1. Dropships Dropping (literally) 2. Dumb-Fire Swarms 3. The Rail Rifle 4. Cloaky Shottie 5. Redline Rail Tanks On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Master Smurf Nos Nothi 461	Posted - 2014.05.18 22:08:00 - [530] - Quote Please dont blame FOTM chasers for CCP lack of ability in balancing the game. Every game under the sun have people who want the optimal. "Shine bright like a diamond"

Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8647	Posted - 2014.05.18 22:18:00 - [531] - Quote Master Smurf wrote: Please dont blame FOTM chasers for CCP lack of ability in balancing the game. Every game under the sun have people who want the optimal. That's not what I'm saying. We all know already that the FOTM chasers were the result of CCP not knowing how the balance the game properly. They just amplified the problem. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 1994	Posted - 2014.05.18 22:19:00 - [532] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Starfire Revo wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: (an idea often proposed by the scrubby FOTM chasers). This is a bit of a tangent, but people who chase the optimal way to play are actually the opposite of scrubs. FOTM wouldn't be such an issue if balance was given a higher priority. Perhaps they aren't scubs then if they figured out an optimal way. But as you and me have seen first hand in Dust, a lot of those FOTM chasers end up being detrimental to the game as they often draw the attention of the "nerf-it" crowd who then often demand unwarranted nerfs to something that might not even be overpowered. I stopped counting over 2 years ago how many FOTMs we went through and how many times people asked for nerfs. Here is at least 5 I can remember from the top of my head. 1. Dropships Dropping (literally) 2. Dumb-Fire Swarms 3. The Rail Rifle 4. Cloaky Shottie 5. Redline Rail Tanks DTAR? I will also disagree with the assertion that they aren't scrubs seeing as how if they truly were as elite as they claim they are, they'd be chasing sub-optimal ways to play in order to truly prove their eliteness. Difference of opinions though I guess. Arzadu Akbar Motherfuckers!!!! Closed Beta Bittervet Bomber
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8647	Posted - 2014.05.18 22:24:00 - [533] - Quote Ok, now that we got that whole FOTM topic out of the way, I think we should go back on topic about progression. I don't want this topic to be locked now because we kept conjuring up bad memories of these FOTM chasers. XD On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4212	Posted - 2014.05.18 22:26:00 - [534] - Quote Hammerhead LandSharkX wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: I have seen no proof whatsoever that a lack of understanding the skill system plagued the majority of players. I believe they simply quit because the game was horrible and, by default, never got a chance to learn the skill system as a result. Whatever exit survey Z conducted was likely tainted. Can we hold back on just being Inflammatory and nonconstructive to discussion? You 'believe' they quit for a different reason and gave as much proof as they did for their reason. It doesn't matter if we see proof for whatever reasons, so long as we can understand that the game needs to improve to get more people playing and for ccp to think it's successful enough to move forward. Shouting 'consipiracy' isn't going to help-*discussing* reasons why proposed fixes/ideas/etc do or do not improve the state of things will. It is neither inflammatory nor nonconstructive. I played the game since beta and I am entirely intimate with the issues that have destroyed the game. I know which issues pissed me off every single day and I know which issues my friends couldn't get past to enjoy the game either. I am far more familiar with the issues than whatever could possibly be gleamed by some exit survey. If you actually play the damn game and talk to people, you don't need that kind of thing. There's nothing conspiracy about it.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8647	Posted - 2014.05.18 22:29:00 - [535] - Quote Hammerhead LandSharkX wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: I have seen no proof whatsoever that a lack of understanding the skill system plagued the majority of players. I believe they simply quit because the game was horrible and, by default, never got a chance to learn the skill system as a result. Whatever exit survey Z conducted was likely tainted. Can we hold back on just being Inflammatory and nonconstructive to discussion? You 'believe' they quit for a different reason and gave as much proof as they did for their reason. It doesn't matter if we see proof for whatever reasons, so long as we can understand that the game needs to improve to get more people playing and for ccp to think it's successful enough to move forward. Shouting 'consipiracy' isn't going to help-*discussing* reasons why proposed fixes/ideas/etc do or do not improve the state of things will. I didn't find his comment to be inflammatory or nonconstructive in any way. He did have a valid point as well as the rest of us. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Starfire Revo DUST University Ivy League 259	Posted - 2014.05.18 22:40:00 - [536] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Perhaps they aren't scubs then if they figured out an optimal way. But as you and me have seen first hand in Dust, a lot of those FOTM chasers end up being detrimental to the game as they often draw the attention of the "nerf-it" crowd who then often demand unwarranted nerfs to something that might not even be overpowered. The FOTM chasers aren't detrimental to the game, poor game balance is detrimental to the game. Competitive players will naturally trend towards the most optimal ways to play and if there's major balance problems, you'll see the "FOTM" style shifts amongst the playerbase. Nerfing and buffing parts of the game is just part of the development process. If a playstyle is completely dominant over all others, then appropriate changes should be made to allow other options to be viable. The problem I've seen in Dust's development is that the nerfs have been heavy handed and not iterative. I make videos of EVE and Dust http://www.youtube.com/mrgimbleb I write about EVE and Dust http://mrgimbleb.blogspot.com
Master Smurf Nos Nothi 461	Posted - 2014.05.18 22:59:00 - [537] - Quote Why dont they have some archetype suits (like they do now) but they show a roadmap of skills to max them out for players that want a streamlined experience. I understand why CCP is going the way they are proposing but I am almost positive it is because its an easy way for them to force balance. It flies in the face of their proposed vision but so be it it seems; the same way they are moving to a more comfortable platform, the same way they make this move to build a more balanced experience in the game. Then after iteration and iteration they may take the training wheels off and allow what we have now. "Shine bright like a diamond"
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2114	Posted - 2014.05.18 23:19:00 - [538] - Quote Captain Crutches wrote: Kevall Longstride wrote: So you can imagine my reservations as to the assertions of others, that the current system is fine or just needs a bit of a tweak.... when I have to send out that much information to new players to explain it all!! If you want my .02 isk... you shouldn't be the one who has to send all those mails! The complexity of the current progression system is, IMO, less of a problem than that the NPE does virtually nothing to explain it to new players, passing the burden on to people like you. Of course we appreciate you for it, but the problem is that it's necessary in the first place. If all CCP changed was the progression system, you'd still have to send out mails to every new D-UNI member explaining it. The mails would be different, yes, and there may be fewer of them, but the burden would still be on you to do it. If CCP instead focused on making a great NPE and explaining all that info that you so painstakingly mail everyone, I think more people would understand the progression system (however complex it was) and we wouldn't have this problem. The universally acknowledged problem is that people don't understand the progression system. But players can't be blamed for that when CCP does such a terrible job teaching them right off the bat. You yourself have shown without doubt that when someone is there to teach a newbie about the game they stick around longer. But only those that join D-UNI or another training corp get that instruction. TL;DR - Make a comprehensive NPE that teaches the progression system to those that need it, and then show me new data on retention and universal understanding - I bet it will be higher, and it'll give people like Dennie less work too! I agree. The workload Dennie is describing is a direct consequence of poor corp/communication tools and absolutely no investment in new players by CCP, in spite of the fact that they knew full well that new peeps were getting fed to the wolves. It's almost as if they wanted DUST to fail. PSN: RationalSpark
Malkai Inos Any Given Day 1340	Posted - 2014.05.18 23:45:00 - [539] - Quote Starfire Revo wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Perhaps they aren't scubs then if they figured out an optimal way. But as you and me have seen first hand in Dust, a lot of those FOTM chasers end up being detrimental to the game as they often draw the attention of the "nerf-it" crowd who then often demand unwarranted nerfs to something that might not even be overpowered. The FOTM chasers aren't detrimental to the game, poor game balance is detrimental to the game. Competitive players will naturally trend towards the most optimal ways to play and if there's major balance problems, you'll see the "FOTM" style shifts amongst the playerbase. Nerfing and buffing parts of the game is just part of the development process. If a playstyle is completely dominant over all others, then appropriate changes should be made to allow other options to be viable. The problem I've seen in Dust's development is that the nerfs have been heavy handed and not iterative. If you're saying that FOTM chasing is not the cause of the problem then I agree. But it cannot be denied that FOTM chasing as a result of faulty balance further amplifies the problem, becoming in itself a detrimental factor to the overall game. FOTM chasing is and should be a legitimate tactic to maximize ones own efficiency and will happen in every competitive environment. However, getting back to what I believe is Maken's point regarding respecs, to limit its corrosive potential to overall game meta there has to be a cost associated with FOTM chasing. Otherwise every miniscule imbalance will immediately be exploited by large portions of the playerbase, temporarily invalidating or severely hampering every alternative choice every time the optimal meta shifts. The New Eden skill system without respecs does just that by introducing an opportunity cost to every skill choice. Without respecs, I have to think twice about spending three months worth of SP for an advantage that might not last for the next month when just going with what better alignes with my playstile might benefit me for much longer. The ability to respec inevitably reduces this opportunity cost, in the extreme case of abundant respecs, to almost zero. This means that the threshold for "OP enough to skill into" gets lowered so that FOTM chasing becomes more prevalent and aggresive. The result is more volatile meta where much smaller imbalances already become a problem while a respec-less environment would be much more resilient to sudden shifts due to rebalancing, possibly to the point where things can get fixed even before they get apparent to the general population. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2328	Posted - 2014.05.18 23:58:00 - [540] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Starfire Revo wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: (an idea often proposed by the scrubby FOTM chasers). This is a bit of a tangent, but people who chase the optimal way to play are actually the opposite of scrubs. FOTM wouldn't be such an issue if balance was given a higher priority. Perhaps they aren't scubs then if they figured out an optimal way. But as you and me have seen first hand in Dust, a lot of those FOTM chasers end up being detrimental to the game as they often draw the attention of the "nerf-it" crowd who then often demand unwarranted nerfs to something that might not even be overpowered. I stopped counting over 2 years ago how many FOTMs we went through and how many times people asked for nerfs. Here is at least 5 I can remember from the top of my head. 1. Dropships Dropping (literally) 2. Dumb-Fire Swarms 3. The Rail Rifle 4. Cloaky Shottie 5. Redline Rail Tanks CalLogi + DTAR? I will also disagree with the assertion that they aren't scrubs seeing as how if they truly were as elite as they claim they are, they'd be chasing sub-optimal ways to play in order to truly prove their eliteness. Difference of opinions though I guess. If that's the case, Wouldn't the PC master race do the same? click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-

Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2328	Posted - 2014.05.19 00:01:00 - [541] - Quote Master Smurf wrote: Why dont they have some archetype suits (like they do now) but they show a roadmap of skills to max them out for players that want a streamlined experience. I understand why CCP is going the way they are proposing but I am almost positive it is because its an easy way for them to force balance. It flies in the face of their proposed vision but so be it it seems; the same way they are moving to a more comfortable platform, the same way they make this move to build a more balanced experience in the game. Then after iteration and iteration they may take the training wheels off and allow what we have now. We don't need training wheels, the idiots do. I ask the question yet again: How is a system that is restricting people better than improving the curret one and teaching people hot to use it? click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 1994	Posted - 2014.05.19 00:17:00 - [542] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Starfire Revo wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: (an idea often proposed by the scrubby FOTM chasers). This is a bit of a tangent, but people who chase the optimal way to play are actually the opposite of scrubs. FOTM wouldn't be such an issue if balance was given a higher priority. Perhaps they aren't scubs then if they figured out an optimal way. But as you and me have seen first hand in Dust, a lot of those FOTM chasers end up being detrimental to the game as they often draw the attention of the "nerf-it" crowd who then often demand unwarranted nerfs to something that might not even be overpowered. I stopped counting over 2 years ago how many FOTMs we went through and how many times people asked for nerfs. Here is at least 5 I can remember from the top of my head. 1. Dropships Dropping (literally) 2. Dumb-Fire Swarms 3. The Rail Rifle 4. Cloaky Shottie 5. Redline Rail Tanks CalLogi + DTAR? I will also disagree with the assertion that they aren't scrubs seeing as how if they truly were as elite as they claim they are, they'd be chasing sub-optimal ways to play in order to truly prove their eliteness. Difference of opinions though I guess. If that's the case, Wouldn't the PC master race do the same? IDK, ask them (though yes, following my logic, they would play on consoles to prove their superiority) Arzadu Akbar Motherfuckers!!!! Closed Beta Bittervet Bomber
Master Smurf Nos Nothi 461	Posted - 2014.05.19 00:27:00 - [543] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: Master Smurf wrote: Why dont they have some archetype suits (like they do now) but they show a roadmap of skills to max them out for players that want a streamlined experience. I understand why CCP is going the way they are proposing but I am almost positive it is because its an easy way for them to force balance. It flies in the face of their proposed vision but so be it it seems; the same way they are moving to a more comfortable platform, the same way they make this move to build a more balanced experience in the game. Then after iteration and iteration they may take the training wheels off and allow what we have now. We don't need training wheels, the idiots do. I ask the question yet again: How is a system that is restricting people better than improving the curret one and teaching people hot to use it? Missing my point - they are doing this because they arent capable of doing better. None of this is for our benefit, its for theirs. It also very funny that they are trying to sell this plan to an audience that are Dust vets and EVE players. This would have made more sense if they were bringing the game to a new console audience. Ah well - Gotta love CCP "Shine bright like a diamond"
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1333	Posted - 2014.05.19 00:52:00 - [544] - Quote Any perceived restrictions that may or may not be in place (it is still a work in progress) will be slight and in the very early stages of the progression. The current roles as proposed start, like the logistics example given, as a series of unlocks for suits, weapons and equipment. As the standard and advanced versions have been scrapped, there is no grind to improve the abilities of said item until you are sure you'd like to go deeper with it. Once you unlock an item, your are free to use it on any suit you wish (subject to any restrictions that may be placed on a suit) IE heavies being locked using a heavy and sidearm and no abilities to put a light weapon in the heavy slot. Giving a new player a lot of unlocks in the early stages of a free to play game is an established way to reward and give them reason to play your game longer. It gives a more structured progression without the need of a raft of UI to explain it all. Which is why I like the role idea. I'd also like to point out that a lot of people's concerns are based on established practise and game mechanics. That is just going to cause a lot of frustration because right now we've no clue as to the extent of the changes to them. Take for example the slot and fitting system for suits. Do you know for certain that those design principles will carry over to Legion? I don't, so I'm choosing to assume there might be getting changed. Z has talked about our suit being our shell and making truly unique fittings. Who's to say there's a new system where we can configure the slot layout for instance? This would actually give you much more choice and depth than we have now. I've always considered the original design decision to try and be as Eve as possible has put artificial barriers as to the development of Dust and now Legion. These choices like many in the early stage of the games development were made to appease the eve players. They share the same universe as Eve and have the same law as Eve. They don't have to do anything the same way as Eve. And yes I shouldn't have to send all this information out and have already submitted a large number of ideas to improve the ways it can be delivered to players. But I do because I enjoy helping as much as I can. And if I've made any meaningful contribution to steadying and stablising new player retention then so much the better. CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2329	Posted - 2014.05.19 00:54:00 - [545] - Quote Master Smurf wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: Master Smurf wrote: Why dont they have some archetype suits (like they do now) but they show a roadmap of skills to max them out for players that want a streamlined experience. I understand why CCP is going the way they are proposing but I am almost positive it is because its an easy way for them to force balance. It flies in the face of their proposed vision but so be it it seems; the same way they are moving to a more comfortable platform, the same way they make this move to build a more balanced experience in the game. Then after iteration and iteration they may take the training wheels off and allow what we have now. We don't need training wheels, the idiots do. I ask the question yet again: How is a system that is restricting people better than improving the curret one and teaching people hot to use it? Missing my point - they are doing this because they arent capable of doing better. None of this is for our benefit, its for theirs. It also very funny that they are trying to sell this plan to an audience that are Dust vets and EVE players. This would have made more sense if they were bringing the game to a new console audience. Ah well - Gotta love CCP They have an entire playerbase (actually two) that does better on a daily basis....... click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2329	Posted - 2014.05.19 01:03:00 - [546] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: Any perceived restrictions that may or may not be in place (it is still a work in progress) will be slight and in the very early stages of the progression. The current roles as proposed start, like the logistics example given, as a series of unlocks for suits, weapons and equipment. As the standard and advanced versions have been scrapped, there is no grind to improve the abilities of said item until you are sure you'd like to go deeper with it. Once you unlock an item, your are free to use it on any suit you wish (subject to any restrictions that may be placed on a suit) IE heavies being locked using a heavy and sidearm and no abilities to put a light weapon in the heavy slot. Giving a new player a lot of unlocks in the early stages of a free to play game is an established way to reward and give them reason to play your game longer. It gives a more structured progression without the need of a raft of UI to explain it all. Which is why I like the role idea. I'd also like to point out that a lot of people's concerns are based on established practise and game mechanics. That is just going to cause a lot of frustration because right now we've no clue as to the extent of the changes to them. Take for example the slot and fitting system for suits. Do you know for certain that those design principles will carry over to Legion? I don't, so I'm choosing to assume there might be getting changed. Z has talked about our suit being our shell and making truly unique fittings. Who's to say there's a new system where we can configure the slot layout for instance? This would actually give you much more choice and depth than we have now. I've always considered the original design decision to try and be as Eve as possible has put artificial barriers as to the development of Dust and now Legion. These choices like many in the early stage of the games development were made to appease the eve players. They share the same universe as Eve and have the same law as Eve. They don't have to do anything the same way as Eve. And yes I shouldn't have to send all this information out and have already submitted a large number of ideas to improve the ways it can be delivered to players. But I do because I enjoy helping as much as I can. And if I've made any meaningful contribution to steadying and stablising new player retention then so much the better. They could always restructure it and put the things we are complaining about (equipment, a T II weapons, etc) further behind the barrier. There's no execuse for putting this barrier in the game in the first place, And Still nobody has answered my question: Why is a skill system that restricts people is better than one that is open, improving that one, and then EXPLAINING THE GODDAMN SYSTEM click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 1995	Posted - 2014.05.19 01:21:00 - [547] - Quote The Skill System isn't as broken as some believe, though NPE is FUBAR. Just because NPE is FUBAR doesn't mean that you need to rework the Skill System, it means you need to rework NPE. Arzadu Akbar Motherfuckers!!!! Closed Beta Bittervet Bomber
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8652	Posted - 2014.05.19 02:19:00 - [548] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: The Skill System isn't as broken as some believe, though NPE is FUBAR. Just because NPE is FUBAR doesn't mean that you need to rework the Skill System, it means you need to rework NPE. It isn't "as broken" as it seems. That part you are correct. But it still is broken regardless. It's not just the NPE (or lack of it in this case) that's the problem. Parts of the skill tree are absolutely useless. 1. Unlocking items only at levels 1, 3, and 5 results in some skill books having wasted SP on levels 2 and 4. Take a look at Active Scanner Operation as one example. Also, Dropsuit Command levels 4 and 5 are pointless as they don't unlock anything else after level 3. Even if it did unlock more items, there is a major problem brought up by my next point. 2. Some skill books don't give bonuses at all and only exist to unlock more skill books. This is wasteful in terms of SP. Gallente Light Frame for example only unlocks Gallente Light Frames suits but these suits don't offer any bonuses and they are more expensive than their role-based counterparts (WTF?). They exist only as stepping stones which only gets in the way and doesn't really show anything to the player about the suit in terms of its benefits and intended role. So even if you implemented a proper NPE system, it doesn't address the two issues I just brought up. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 1996	Posted - 2014.05.19 02:21:00 - [549] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: The Skill System isn't as broken as some believe, though NPE is FUBAR. Just because NPE is FUBAR doesn't mean that you need to rework the Skill System, it means you need to rework NPE. It isn't "as broken" as it seems. That part you are correct. But it still is broken regardless. It's not just the NPE (or lack of it in this case) that's the problem. Parts of the skill tree are absolutely useless. 1. Unlocking items only at levels 1, 3, and 5 results in some skill books having wasted SP on levels 2 and 4. Take a look at Active Scanner Operation as one example. Also, Dropsuit Command levels 4 and 5 are pointless as they don't unlock anything else after level 3. Even if it did unlock more items, there is a major problem brought up by my next point. 2. Some skill books don't give bonuses at all and only exist to unlock more skill books. This is wasteful in terms of SP. Gallente Light Frame for example only unlocks Gallente Light Frames suits but these suits don't offer any bonuses and they are more expensive than their role-based counterparts (WTF?). They exist only as stepping stones which only gets in the way and doesn't really show anything to the player about the suit in terms of its benefits and intended role. So even if you implemented a proper NPE system, it doesn't address the two issues I just brought up. If you scroll up through my responses here, I've addressed both of your concerns (at least with my opinion) earlier in the thread. Arzadu Akbar Motherfuckers!!!! Closed Beta Bittervet Bomber
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8652	Posted - 2014.05.19 02:53:00 - [550] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: If you scroll up through my responses here, I've addressed both of your concerns (at least with my opinion) earlier in the thread. You mean this one? Quote: My thoughts on how the Eve:Legion Progression should look. Firstly, it should be mainly Passive SP gain with the Passive SP filling a queued skill (just like Eve). Active SP gain should be present, though not in the same fashion as we are currently accustomed to. I strongly believe that we'd best be served by a "Practice makes Perfect" style of Active SP generation. We should be rewarded for using the things we use by getting better at using them. This would reward new players with the carrot of SP for simply being in a match and being active. This would also prevent vets from skilling up like a runaway train without diversification. I know that there are those who will decry this method, though I honestly believe that it is the best route for Legion to take. It allows rookies to have the illusion of accelerated SP gain while discouraging vets from instantly achieving Prof 5 by roflstomping everything with a tried and true fit. After a point, we stop growing taller and we start growing wider, it makes no sense that we should excel at using something we've never touched before. It allows the player to control what they gain skill points in by choosing what skill to queue, what gear to fit, what dropsuits to use and what weapons to use. The Skill Tree itself should remain largely unchanged in design, though with some minor tweaks to values (to bring it more in line with Eve's skill costs) as well as the addition of certain branches found in Eve that are not currently found in Dust (namely Leadership, Social and Trade). Lastly, every skill should provide a benefit outside of any unlocks, there should be no useless skills. Even if said benefits are tied to the Dropsuits/Modules/Weapons rather than the skill itself. Looks like I missed it. Damn, I had to scroll through 5 pages in order to find it. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.

Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2114	Posted - 2014.05.19 03:44:00 - [551] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: The Skill System isn't as broken as some believe, though NPE is FUBAR. Just because NPE is FUBAR doesn't mean that you need to rework the Skill System, it means you need to rework NPE. It isn't "as broken" as it seems. That part you are correct. But it still is broken regardless. It's not just the NPE (or lack of it in this case) that's the problem. Parts of the skill tree are absolutely useless. 1. Unlocking items only at levels 1, 3, and 5 results in some skill books having wasted SP on levels 2 and 4. Take a look at Active Scanner Operation as one example. Also, Dropsuit Command levels 4 and 5 are pointless as they don't unlock anything else after level 3. Even if it did unlock more items, there is a major problem brought up by my next point. 2. Some skill books don't give bonuses at all and only exist to unlock more skill books. This is wasteful in terms of SP. Gallente Light Frame for example only unlocks Gallente Light Frames suits but these suits don't offer any bonuses and they are more expensive than their role-based counterparts (WTF?). They exist only as stepping stones which only gets in the way and doesn't really show anything to the player about the suit in terms of its benefits and intended role. So even if you implemented a proper NPE system, it doesn't address the two issues I just brought up. You're right, ofc, but i think many of us are on the same page. These issues with the skill system have been part of the forum conversation for two years now. The issues were obvious right at the beginning and the fixes are straightforward. The solution suggests itself in the statement of the problem, it doesn't get much easier than that. PSN: RationalSpark
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1335	Posted - 2014.05.19 07:16:00 - [552] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: And Still nobody has answered my question: Why is a skill system that restricts people is better than one that is open, improving that one, and then EXPLAINING THE GODDAMN SYSTEM You've already highlighted your answer in bold. If you have to explain the system, you designed it poorly in the first place. CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
TrueXer0z DUST University Ivy League 573	Posted - 2014.05.19 09:17:00 - [553] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: And Still nobody has answered my question: Why is a skill system that restricts people is better than one that is open, improving that one, and then EXPLAINING THE GODDAMN SYSTEM You've already highlighted your answer in bold. If you have to explain the system, you designed it poorly in the first place. This is true, but a tutorial option isn't something I see being a bad thing. Even a re playable tutorial. Organizations like Dust University should not have to run lectures on the basic elements of the game. Our focus should be on teaching people what options they can take in order to make their experience a smoother one. Tool tips are an easy way to accomplish a huge leap in understanding on the part of a new player. A simple option to turn tool tips off should be easy enough to handle. I reiterate my original concerns about even needing something so drastic. I still feel this is a big mistake. It will require more time re-balancing everything. Are you as a community ready for another year of that? Are you CCP ready for another year of that? I see this specific thread as a big distraction anyway. Once again like I said before, CCP Z already has an idea of how things will be done. Nothing is going to change the outcome of his vision for our "progression." The discussion might influence very slight changes, but not enough to the point where any major ideas shared here will have any impact on the final product. It is good that the CCP Devs are talking to us a bit more, but I see more deflection and continuously vague statements made. Granted progress is progress and some communication is better then none. But, it is quantity over quality. It is as plain as day and we slowly bite into the same apple that damned us before. These discussions mean nothing more then to quell the masses. To stop you from taking any real action to make a change. Answers to questions that mean nothing. Statements carefully crafted to keep you chasing the rabbit. Still no concrete evidence supporting a green light. Just an escape from a failed attempt at getting into the console market (Trying again with Valkyrie) and a whole lot of talk.....just talk... Director, Dust University @TrueXer0z *Kevall Longstride - CPM1*
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1669	Posted - 2014.05.19 10:04:00 - [554] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: And Still nobody has answered my question: Why is a skill system that restricts people is better than one that is open, improving that one, and then EXPLAINING THE GODDAMN SYSTEM You've already highlighted your answer in bold. If you have to explain the system, you designed it poorly in the first place. That's not necessarily true. A lot of games avoid explaining things to the player by letting them learn via trial and error. And while that certainly does work for some things, other things, like skill training, should be explained beforehand for obvious reasons. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
Jebus McKing Legio DXIV 464	Posted - 2014.05.19 10:41:00 - [555] - Quote Jeez, I don't really care what you do to the progression system. As long as I can spec into a Minmatar Heavy with kincats on day one without having to spend SP on a different skilltree unlocking stuff I don't want, I'm OK with it. But, if I have to go halfway through the scout skilltree spending SP on a suit I don't care about just to unlock one module/equipment/weapon then I can not agree with the new system. Make it easier for new players to understand what initially might be the right skill to get for their preferred role and why that is so. But don't establish walls for people who know what they are doing, limiting what they can do or putting options behind huge SP sinks. New players won't be new players forever. @JebusMcKing
Atlas Kordan Concordiat Mercenaries Dropsuit Samurai 0	Posted - 2014.05.19 10:44:00 - [556] - Quote Thoughts/Ideas/Constructive Criticisms 1. The idea posted before about respec'ing SP (essentially given a thumbs up by CCP Z), in which you gain your respec'ing SP points gradually and have to pay ISK as well, I think is a great idea. However, I think it could go a step further. My suggestion (whether you agree with it or not is you opinion), is that the ISK you pay be equal to the amount of SP you respec. So, if you want to respec 1.0 Mil SP, you have to pay 1.0 Mil ISK! Additionally, I don't know if this was addressed or not, but also give the option to respec specific amounts of SP. For instance, (and I'm going to use the current method that DUST 514 uses for progression as an example, and I know this is not going to be the progression used for Legion), if I want to respec Caldari Logi 5 (which I wouldn't btw lol), I would be given the options to either respec the full 5 nodes of the skill, or 4 nodes, or 3, or 2, or 1. Then, in conjunction with the ideas from former posts, I would pay an amount for the SP respec (which I believe should be 1:1), and have to wait til the SP points passively fills my un-allocated SP bar. Furthermore, you could limit the number of respecs per time period (a month, a week, or whatever), or you can limit the amount you can respec in a specific time period, So, for example, you could respec 1.0 Mil SP in 1 month, but every time you do, the amount you respec comes off the 1.0 Mil total. So, Day 1, respec 100,000 SP (900,000 SP left). Day 2, respec 50,000 SP (850,000 SP left), and so forth. 2. Concerning a post (again given to thought by CCP Z), in which potentially sub-equipment on suits also be given mod slots, how about weapons themselves be able to be customizable, with mod slots on them as well. For instance, my Rail Gun has a mod for a scope. It would increase the range by a certain amount, but may, for example, increase its weight, and thus kick-back. Or, I could mod by weapon with a specific type of metal which makes the gun lighter, and thus quicker to iron sight, or make it lighter to carry and thus allow me to run faster, but would do less damage. 3. Cloaking ... it's OP. I know this, you know this. Here's an idea for a potential fix. If it's included in Legion, how about have it similar to how cloaking works in EVE, whereby if you fire your weapon you become de-cloaked (which I think is how it works now in DUST 514), but have a cool down whereby you can't cloak until a limited time after you have fired, even if your cloak mod has recharged since you have used it. So, essentially having the cloak usage based upon a skill, and a time limit after you fired your weapon. For instance, if I cloak, I have expelled the charge on my cloak, and based upon the skill, it will recharge after a certain amount of time. Once I shoot at another player, I lose my cloak, but cannot cloak until a time has passed since I fired my last shot, even if the cloak mod has recharged. This effectively relegates the cloak to guerrilla warfare tactics and/or quick capturing of capture points. Also, making cloaks only usable by specific armor(s) types will essentially make them less OP, since you have to skill towards a cloaking armor at the expense of other skills. Make Music Not War!
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 525	Posted - 2014.05.19 12:42:00 - [557] - Quote I can't wait to hear more details on the progression system. I think active-passive hybrids are a good move. In Eve, I'm hardly motivated to do anything except save up ISK, and I avoid activities that cut into the bottom line. If I earned something for active participation in PvP I would probably join RvB and grind out the participatory rewards like I do in Dust (I would invest/burn ISK to finance progression.). Also, planning the monetization of the progression would be fair if you had multiple paths to acquire the bonus (Boosters). An open market with player trading, or LP to AUR converters, or something so people could have equal access without spending real money...and you simply hope they become personally invested enough over time that they get over their aversion to spending real money. There will be bullets. ACR+SMG [CEO of Terror]
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A Caps and Mercs 495	Posted - 2014.05.19 15:17:00 - [558] - Quote I-¦m getting the feeling that Need for speed World will be a reference on the Progression system.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8656	Posted - 2014.05.19 15:29:00 - [559] - Quote @atlas No, the cloak in DUST decloaks as soon as you switch from the equipment to the weapon or something else. In order to maintain cloak you need to have the cortex equipment in front of you. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
byte modal 83	Posted - 2014.05.19 15:57:00 - [560] - Quote Just curious, but has anything been posted or detailed beyond the fanfest presentation? I've seen a few player's post a few general outlines showing what they each hope for, wondering if any of that hierarchy might pull some dev-level attention. Hell, I've even started drawing up one of my own. But honestly, is there anything dev-side offering more insight to the intended logic or structure of player progression? While it's nice to see ideas popping around, to discuss hypothetical development and structure, to be inspired by what others are bringing to the conversation, we are only bringing it to a table (not necessarily the table). In your opinion, is this thread serving any productive purpose? I mean, apart from a laser pointer to our cat/DUST, easily distracted, minds? I personally find this very civil discussion inspiring. Towards the player base, that gives me comfort, especially in context of so many negative troll-bait threads I've read through during the life of DUST. But as positive of a discussion that this may be for us, I can't help but feel that we are just spinning our wheels fruitlessly. I'm still trying not to be cynical with all of this, but really, what's the point of this? Irony: Post #35

DAMIOS82 WarRavens Final Resolution. 117	Posted - 2014.05.19 16:12:00 - [561] - Quote In every game players want to be the dominating force, That is why there are skill systems, to make sure that by planning your skill path you can defeat another in one way or the other. Skill systems are not about noobs, there about getting ahead of each other. Thus creating a skill system that is only based on passive skill gain takes the drive away to continuously play. If i compare my gaming habbits with EVE and another random game, i always play the last one. Why because other then isk and the occasional roaming/looking at the view or waiting for a useless skill to complete in a months time, there is no reall reason for me to continuously play. I can't get ahead skill wise, so getting that 'titan' is a 3-4 year plan nonetheless and flying a battleship vs anything is pointless in everyway, since they can still blow you out of the sky very easely (even in a destroyer), meaning that nomatter what you skill into it has no reall effects. Dust/Legion tries to do it another way and that is with active skill gain, It drives players to play when ever they can, so that when they do face that one opponent they don't get there asses kicked. Protostomping is just there due to the lack of a bad selection system and has nothing to do with the skills. So to sum it all up, NO a passive only system will just decrease the will to play dust/legion, even if you criple it a little bit. Secondly i can imagine that the guys over at dust university have it hard with the noobs. However in every game there is always a tutorial and even if you did skip it, you could always go back to look at it. EVE has it aswell in the sence of tutorial agents, where you not only can read it, but you also hear this beautifull voice. Legion needs the same thing, where you go thrue severall different tutorials that explain what every button does and how it all works, both in text and voice. Before you start and should you skip it all, then you should be able to go back at it. Thus unloading other corporations. Legion/Dust lacks this, so it has to be improved. Thirdly like i have said before, the way skills work now is useless. having 1-5 levels of which half do nothing are pointless. A node system where for instance (like a few posts above) you would have powergrid management basics, powergrid management advanced and powergrid management mastery is alott easier to understand and to work with. If each would give the right amount of bonus aswell, then you don't need levels 1-5. Now if we had hundreds upon hundreds in many, many category's like in EVE then perhaps yes such a system will work, but it took them 10 years to get there. Legion is still in the womb and lets face it, it's not like it's overflowing with skills. So a system that is easier on the eyes, with a better overview is the way to go, atleast untill we have reached the EVE standards skill wise. As for ISIS, imo it's nothing more then a graphical upgrade of the skillsystem, perhaps for some it could be usefull as an overview, but to me it's pointless. For the last 9 years in EVE if i wanted to know what skills i needed (and we did not have ISIS back in those days), i'd press right click and then info. There is this nice little tab called requirements that tells you all you need to know about what skills you need. So imo it's simply feeding the lazy gamers. And the certificate system is even more pointless, it's only usefull for perhaps corporations that want to know what you can fly, but there's an even better system for that called API keys. Other then that it has no value (ok perhaps the ego). If you can fly a ship, you can fly it. I don't need some certificate telling me i can fly the same ship, i've been flying for the last 9 years without it. So incorporating systems like those two into Legion will only stroke the ego and has ads no value to the game. The API keys however would and should be incorporated into legion, so that corporation that want to know you skill set, can look for them selfs.
DAMIOS82 WarRavens Final Resolution. 117	Posted - 2014.05.19 16:16:00 - [562] - Quote byte modal wrote: Just curious, but has anything been posted or detailed beyond the fanfest presentation? I've seen a few player's post a few general outlines showing what they each hope for, wondering if any of that hierarchy might pull some dev-level attention. Hell, I've even started drawing up one of my own. But honestly, is there anything dev-side offering more insight to the intended logic or structure of player progression? While it's nice to see ideas popping around, to discuss hypothetical development and structure, to be inspired by what others are bringing to the conversation, we are only bringing it to a table (not necessarily the table). I mean, we can go round and round all day with wonderful ideas, but until we have a clear(er) idea of dev intent, well,... we're just chasing our tails. In your opinion, is this thread serving any productive purpose? I mean, apart from a laser pointer to our cat/DUST, easily distracted, minds? I personally find this very civil discussion inspiring. Towards the player base, that gives me comfort, especially in context of so many negative troll-bait threads I've read through during the life of DUST. But as positive of a discussion that this may be for us, I can't help but feel that we are just spinning our wheels fruitlessly. I'm still trying not to be cynical with all of this, but really, what's the point of this? Well the thing is CCP does listen to a degree. It is still there game and they will do what they think is best, but they also try and pick out a few idea's from the crowd and try to incorporate it into the game. They have done this with EVE alott and even with Dust beta. So it's not pointless, but it's like saying well maybe, just maybe.....if they agree with it. So if enough gamers try to make the same point, it is more then likely they will have a better look at it.
byte modal 83	Posted - 2014.05.19 16:53:00 - [563] - Quote DAMIOS82 wrote: byte modal wrote: ..... Well the thing is CCP does listen to a degree. It is still there game and they will do what they think is best, but they also try and pick out a few idea's from the crowd and try to incorporate it into the game. They have done this with EVE alott and even with Dust beta. So it's not pointless, but it's like saying well maybe, just maybe.....if they agree with it. So if enough gamers try to make the same point, it is more then likely they will have a better look at it. Oh don't get me wrong, I think we're basically on the same page. I've been in EVE since 2006 and here since Closed Beta. I'm familiar with CCP. However, specifically with DUST, my view has become a bit jaded. You say tomato, I say to-MAH-to. I get that my perspective may be skewed, hence the question to begin with. I'm more curious to know what, if anything, has been posted regarding this specific path. I mean outlines of logic for us to gain perspective so that our ramblings out here on the forums can actually mean something beyond wishful thinking. If they're building a track moving north to south, it does us no good really to comment our opinions on a track moving west to east. Sure, there may be a few random ideas that spring up that might influence a subtlety here or there, but for the most part we're not doing anything useful except for discussion for discussion's sake. With that, I'm hoping that I've missed the obvious: a post outlining dev intent, more than the fanfest PPT. I've seen player posts more detailed content, but all of that, while nice and informative, is and can only ever be hypothetical. Our time would be better spent reacting to and offering detailed suggestions based off in-game (and historical) experience, rather than patting each other on the back for what may honestly be brilliant ideas, if only they had any place whatsoever within the dev's concept of progression. Until we see that as concrete, there's not much good that can come of this other than disappointment when we discover we all were way off base in our assumptions that fueled this discussion to begin with. =) Hey, that's negative. I know. Again, it's why I'm asking for opinions---to counter this. I love DUST and I imagine I will love Legion as well, just look at any post of mine and you should have a good idea of where I stand. My good nature still though shouldn't mask my concerns. Patterns are patterns because they are repeated. I'm not the only poster in this thread that sees that and recognizes a repeated pattern forming yet again---posts from far more passionate and dedicated players than I. Either way, I hope for the best. My expectations are average, unfortunately. I'm still excited and wish they would just greenlight this mother, already! >=P~ - me. edit: I guess I'm replying more to your previous post along with this one. Irony: Post #35
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2339	Posted - 2014.05.19 19:55:00 - [564] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: And Still nobody has answered my question: Why is a skill system that restricts people is better than one that is open, improving that one, and then EXPLAINING THE GODDAMN SYSTEM You've already highlighted your answer in bold. If you have to explain the system, you designed it poorly in the first place. So you're saying that all math ever made should be able to be figured out by just looking at it? Using your logic, yes it should. And that doesn't answer my question at all. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2073	Posted - 2014.05.19 20:54:00 - [565] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: I have seen no proof whatsoever that a lack of understanding the skill system plagued the majority of players. I believe they simply quit because the game was horrible and, by default, never got a chance to learn the skill system as a result. Whatever exit survey Z conducted was likely tainted. That's also part of it. But the topic of skill progression came up every now and then. Not as much as the topics of lag, broken PC mechanics, protostomping, and being put into a match in progress did, but when the topic of skill progression came up (often under the topic of respecs) it was almost always a heated debate on how it should be fixed. On the one side you had people like me saying no to respecs while advocating a more clear and concise set of tools that can aid a player in better understanding the game. This eventually brought up the idea of overhauling the academy as part of the solution. On the other side you had people saying yes to respecs simple on the basis that the skill progression system is broken and players need a chance to undo their mistakes which was the result of not being able to fully understand the skill progression. Of course another idea was allowing players to just let them play around with the SP allocation just for the fun of it (an idea often proposed by the scrubby FOTM chasers). EDIT: I forgot to mention that the pro-respec side also referred to the fact that some people didn't like certain play styles they tried earlier and feel that SP invested in those skills were wasted SP. On a side note related to this, often the "skill progression system is broken" set were actually talking about effects from weapon rebalances. Yes they wanted skill points back but it wasn't due to the skill tree being unclear so much as a specific weapon/suit/bit of gear being rebalanced and thus losing the type/degree of functionality that they'd come to expect. Also flavor text, which is perhaps part of the skill tree, caused trouble when someone would read the fluff about how a given item/skill should work and then the skill or item did not in fact work that way. This is to say that even among those who were frustrated (often rightfully) about their skill progression, the causal element wasn't actually rooted within the skill system. 0.02 ISK Cross Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
Happy Violentime OMFGZOMBIESRUN 628	Posted - 2014.05.19 21:01:00 - [566] - Quote Have you thought about not reinventing the wheel? Just use a progression system like in COD or Battlefield? I mean that is what you're trying to do - albeit in some half-assed Evetard way. There's no middle ground dude, pick your audience OR give people the choice between a role based system and what is in Dust now.
Atlas Kordan Concordiat Mercenaries Dropsuit Samurai 1	Posted - 2014.05.19 22:28:00 - [567] - Quote Happy Violentime wrote: Have you thought about not reinventing the wheel? Just use a progression system like in COD or Battlefield? I mean that is what you're trying to do - albeit in some half-assed Evetard way. There's no middle ground dude, pick your audience OR give people the choice between a role based system and what is in Dust now. If Legion goes this route, I for one will not play the game. The progression system in those games, especially COD, do not offer the progression depth that we have come to expect, and love, from CCP games. I don't want to play another game where my kills solely are used to open up skills/weapons/items. I enjoyed the idea of WP and where in matches I can run an isk efficient fit, go 5/5 k/d, but still was an integral part in the game because I could heal, nano, etc. Make Music Not War!
Atlas Kordan Concordiat Mercenaries Dropsuit Samurai 1	Posted - 2014.05.19 22:37:00 - [568] - Quote A quick question about game mechanics. Will the MCC's have more interaction in Legion, than rather being a place to spawn currently? For instance, will we be able to board and fight on them, while people are fighting on the ground below? Or perhaps, having the ability to launch ships from the MCC, like an aircraft carrier? Make Music Not War!
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2340	Posted - 2014.05.19 23:22:00 - [569] - Quote Atlas Kordan wrote: A quick question about game mechanics. Will the MCC's have more interaction in Legion, rather than being a place to spawn currently? For instance, will we be able to board and fight on them, while people are fighting on the ground below? Or perhaps, having the ability to launch ships from the MCC, like an aircraft carrier? The MCC is too small for that. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8662	Posted - 2014.05.19 23:23:00 - [570] - Quote Atlas Kordan wrote: A quick question about game mechanics. Will the MCC's have more interaction in Legion, rather than being a place to spawn currently? For instance, will we be able to board and fight on them, while people are fighting on the ground below? Or perhaps, having the ability to launch ships from the MCC, like an aircraft carrier? I don't think CCP Z is tasked with handling that part of the game development. That sounds like something another team handles. CCP Z handles monetization and skill progression. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.

Atlas Kordan Concordiat Mercenaries Dropsuit Samurai 1	Posted - 2014.05.19 23:54:00 - [571] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: Atlas Kordan wrote: A quick question about game mechanics. Will the MCC's have more interaction in Legion, rather than being a place to spawn currently? For instance, will we be able to board and fight on them, while people are fighting on the ground below? Or perhaps, having the ability to launch ships from the MCC, like an aircraft carrier? The MCC is too small for that. They can always make it bigger, like they're doing with the maps. Make Music Not War!
Atlas Kordan Concordiat Mercenaries Dropsuit Samurai 1	Posted - 2014.05.19 23:55:00 - [572] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Atlas Kordan wrote: A quick question about game mechanics. Will the MCC's have more interaction in Legion, rather than being a place to spawn currently? For instance, will we be able to board and fight on them, while people are fighting on the ground below? Or perhaps, having the ability to launch ships from the MCC, like an aircraft carrier? I don't think CCP Z is tasked with handling that part of the game development. That sounds like something another team handles. CCP Z handles monetization and skill progression. True. My bad. Make Music Not War!
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2342	Posted - 2014.05.20 00:45:00 - [573] - Quote Atlas Kordan wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: Atlas Kordan wrote: A quick question about game mechanics. Will the MCC's have more interaction in Legion, rather than being a place to spawn currently? For instance, will we be able to board and fight on them, while people are fighting on the ground below? Or perhaps, having the ability to launch ships from the MCC, like an aircraft carrier? The MCC is too small for that. They can always make it bigger, like they're doing with the maps. They could (would make MCC fights a bit cooler, as you would have enough room to fight in them lol), but I doubt it for some reason that they would. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8662	Posted - 2014.05.20 02:22:00 - [574] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: Atlas Kordan wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: Atlas Kordan wrote: A quick question about game mechanics. Will the MCC's have more interaction in Legion, rather than being a place to spawn currently? For instance, will we be able to board and fight on them, while people are fighting on the ground below? Or perhaps, having the ability to launch ships from the MCC, like an aircraft carrier? The MCC is too small for that. They can always make it bigger, like they're doing with the maps. They could (would make MCC fights a bit cooler, as you would have enough room to fight in them lol), but I doubt it for some reason that they would. They could at least dedicate the rest of the 80% of the MCC we don't take up to allowing Legionaries to pilot the MCC and commandeer the guns. Would make for some epic MCC-on-MCC action! On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2346	Posted - 2014.05.20 03:49:00 - [575] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: Atlas Kordan wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: Atlas Kordan wrote: A quick question about game mechanics. Will the MCC's have more interaction in Legion, rather than being a place to spawn currently? For instance, will we be able to board and fight on them, while people are fighting on the ground below? Or perhaps, having the ability to launch ships from the MCC, like an aircraft carrier? The MCC is too small for that. They can always make it bigger, like they're doing with the maps. They could (would make MCC fights a bit cooler, as you would have enough room to fight in them lol), but I doubt it for some reason that they would. They could at least dedicate the rest of the 80% of the MCC we don't take up to allowing Legionaries to pilot the MCC and commandeer the guns. Would make for some epic MCC-on-MCC action! People would just aim those XL cannons at anything that moved on the ground. Make it lock on, and okay. EDIT: Lock on as in lock, and it shoots a dumbfire shot. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 525	Posted - 2014.05.20 13:37:00 - [576] - Quote Some people ask if there is any point, and there is. Even if we are not heard and we end up with a sci-fi clone of TF2 and pay-to-impress hats, CCP leadership will see that many of us will still be here because Legion is connected to Eve Online, and we are serious about our internet spaceships. We'll suffer the dumbing down of the game in the hope that a Tech II or III system will be built on top of the n00b friendly 'early game' content. We'll still do our best to set a high bar, maybe thwarting the effort to attract casuals (I hope), by playing as hard and as serious as we can...investing unreasonable time and effort and real money trying to win. ITryHard. There will be bullets. ACR+SMG [CEO of Terror]
byte modal 86	Posted - 2014.05.20 15:04:00 - [577] - Quote ^ lol. I like you. "...investing unreasonable time and effort and real money trying to win. ITryHard." Irony: Post #35
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2356	Posted - 2014.05.20 16:29:00 - [578] - Quote byte modal wrote: ^ lol. I like you. "...investing unreasonable time and effort and real money trying to win. ITryHard." Like I said in my posts, I was soliciting opinions. So thank you for that. My posts are kind of where I'm leaning. I don't like it, but it's what I see. With that said though, like you I too will be investing unreasonable time and effort and real money to... well. At least to try to have a neutral KDR. lol. Mostly though, I just want to see this game succeed and do so by the standards already established in the EVE Universe. It's a brilliant idea to merge an FPS into it, even if progression is slightly watered-down. Slightly, that is. >=] Restricting us is not slightly, but I get your point click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2052	Posted - 2014.05.20 17:17:00 - [579] - Quote https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2169542#post2169542 Pokey Dravon wrote: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6Pqc0ScXKN7OE1mczZ3RHduX180TU1MMEEzeW9LaU4yWDM0/edit?usp=sharing Please view PDF above at full zoom so all text is visible. Recent discussion has heavily been focused on the proposed ideas for the Skill System in EVE: Legion. Development feels that the current system is too complicated for the target audience, and has suggested a simplified system to make things easier for new players to understand. I however feel that simplifying the system excessively betrays the freedom of gameplay that is New Eden, and that the primary issue lies in the presentation of the system and not the system itself. The above PDF presents and interface designed to make Skilling easy for new players, while maintaining the depth of the skill system for veteran players. This is in some contrast to the plan CCP Z suggested, but I feel that the ideas he presented are good, but need some redirection. When presented in this manner, new players will be able to quickly identify what role they want to play and in what order they should train skills in order to fulfill that role. The system guides them gradually into that role, but does not restrict their access to cross training skills if they so choose to. Players will be able to dynamically switch between roles as well as Basic and Advanced mode in order to gain a broader understanding of their progress without being overwhelming by the size and complexity of the system. And as always not everyone may agree with each other but these sort of documents are created to foster healthy and productive discussion, no fighting and bickering. I ask that you keep the conversation clean and productive. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
Hammerhead LandSharkX Liberum Sapiens Xenodochi 38	Posted - 2014.05.20 18:51:00 - [580] - Quote Stated in the pdf Pokey Dravon wrote: Please keep in mind that the skill tree presented here is for conceptual purposes only. This document is to examine a more user friendly presentation to the skill system to help new players understand the system better. Constructive criticism is expected and while we may not agree on everything, the purpose of this is to initial a point of discussion, so please keep it civil. Thank you pokey for presenting a very clean and well explained example of what (i think) is a better option. Using your mock up in reference, things this kind of system allows for: adding achievements (psn, live, steam), rewards (isk, skins, skill bonuses/discounts, assets) for completing each rank of mastery (marked #2 in your pdf) adds extra encouragement for following role guidelines. Adding video reels for each role (marked #3 in pdf) accompanied by a voice-over of the summary would be a nice touch. Adding notifications or some other alert system that lets players know that they've unlocked fitting access to something and temporarily highlighting its category in the market. in "basic mode" or pehaps an 'auto mode' players could simply select the role and watch the skill points be spent for them. Adding a 'certification progress' to the end of battle screen showing how far you've advanced towards your current selected role based on skill points earned in battle (whether auto spent or not)(potential progress vs automated progress). (Again) I believe this route is better for both transitioning from dust to legion or eve players to legion, as well as for legion to provide an accessible introduction for new players to a deeper and free skill & progression system that sets the (fps) game apart from others.

byte modal 89	Posted - 2014.05.20 18:56:00 - [581] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: Restricting us is not slightly, but I get your point lol weeeeeelllll....... in context of what I was replying to, hoping that IF it must be dumbed down, then fingers crossed it's open to evolve. To be clear though, I want EVE-style progression, dag nabbit!!!11!!11! ^.^ Irony: Post #35
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2358	Posted - 2014.05.20 20:40:00 - [582] - Quote byte modal wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: Restricting us is not slightly, but I get your point lol weeeeeelllll....... in context of what I was replying to, hoping that IF it must be dumbed down, then fingers crossed it's open to evolve. To be clear though, I want EVE-style progression, dag nabbit!!!11!!11! ^.^ Well, that's the point we're trying to point out I guess, that it doesn't need dumbing down, just improvement and a actual explanation. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
byte modal 90	Posted - 2014.05.20 21:08:00 - [583] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: Well, that's the point we're trying to point out I guess, that it doesn't need dumbing down, just improvement and a actual explanation. 100% ...wait. I thought there was a thumbs-up icon thingy?! maybe that's another forum =\ lol. either way, I'm with you. Irony: Post #35
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2360	Posted - 2014.05.20 21:41:00 - [584] - Quote byte modal wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: Well, that's the point we're trying to point out I guess, that it doesn't need dumbing down, just improvement and a actual explanation. 100% ...wait. I thought there was a thumbs-up icon thingy?! maybe that's another forum =\ lol. either way, I'm with you. top right of each comment there's a like button with a thumbs up. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
byte modal 93	Posted - 2014.05.20 21:58:00 - [585] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: byte modal wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: Well, that's the point we're trying to point out I guess, that it doesn't need dumbing down, just improvement and a actual explanation. 100% ...wait. I thought there was a thumbs-up icon thingy?! maybe that's another forum =\ lol. either way, I'm with you. top right of each comment there's a like button with a thumbs up. lol smartass. I know THAT, how else do you explain all theses notifications of, "byte modal liked your forum post bla bla" haha. No, I mean thumbs-up icon like the default row of emoticons. Ah, I'm thinking of the Optima forums =\ Well... mystery solved at least. Irony: Post #35
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2368	Posted - 2014.05.21 01:52:00 - [586] - Quote byte modal wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: byte modal wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: Well, that's the point we're trying to point out I guess, that it doesn't need dumbing down, just improvement and a actual explanation. 100% ...wait. I thought there was a thumbs-up icon thingy?! maybe that's another forum =\ lol. either way, I'm with you. top right of each comment there's a like button with a thumbs up. lol smartass. I know THAT, how else do you explain all theses notifications of, "byte modal liked your forum post bla bla" haha. No, I mean thumbs-up icon like the default row of emoticons. Ah, I'm thinking of the Optima forums =\ Well... mystery solved at least. Wat? Oh, I see now. I get confused sometimes my bad click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2116	Posted - 2014.05.21 02:23:00 - [587] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2169542#post2169542 Pokey Dravon wrote: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6Pqc0ScXKN7OE1mczZ3RHduX180TU1MMEEzeW9LaU4yWDM0/edit?usp=sharing Please view PDF above at full zoom so all text is visible. Recent discussion has heavily been focused on the proposed ideas for the Skill System in EVE: Legion. Development feels that the current system is too complicated for the target audience, and has suggested a simplified system to make things easier for new players to understand. I however feel that simplifying the system excessively betrays the freedom of gameplay that is New Eden, and that the primary issue lies in the presentation of the system and not the system itself. The above PDF presents and interface designed to make Skilling easy for new players, while maintaining the depth of the skill system for veteran players. This is in some contrast to the plan CCP Z suggested, but I feel that the ideas he presented are good, but need some redirection. When presented in this manner, new players will be able to quickly identify what role they want to play and in what order they should train skills in order to fulfill that role. The system guides them gradually into that role, but does not restrict their access to cross training skills if they so choose to. Players will be able to dynamically switch between roles as well as Basic and Advanced mode in order to gain a broader understanding of their progress without being overwhelming by the size and complexity of the system. And as always not everyone may agree with each other but these sort of documents are created to foster healthy and productive discussion, no fighting and bickering. I ask that you keep the conversation clean and productive. Nice work Pokey, and a clean demonstration of how a gently guiding overlay serves new and old players, casuals and tryhards. Also an excellent example of how an extra layer of UI can be worth it's weight in educational ~~aurum~~ gold. PSN: RationalSpark
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2065	Posted - 2014.05.21 03:29:00 - [588] - Quote Thank you for your support guys. I understandably completely CCP Z's concerns and what he is trying to do, and while I think the ideas he has are pretty solid, they're a little misdirected. Accessibility to new players is paramount and should be a primary design goal, however it should not be the only design goal. Maintaining the freedom and flexibility for players to make their own choices has to be protected, instead of hiding the gear they want behind roles they have no interest in. It's not the system itself that's broken, it is the method in which it is presented. I hope that CCP can take these sort of ideas to heart, or better yet you guys can elect me to CPM1 Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1671	Posted - 2014.05.21 03:37:00 - [589] - Quote CCP says that they want to make EVE: Legion special and unique, but their actions tell another story. Help me out here, guys, what's the word for someone who says one thing but does another? Hippogryph? I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2371	Posted - 2014.05.21 03:58:00 - [590] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: CCP says that they want to make EVE: Legion special and unique, but their actions tell another story. Help me out here, guys, what's the word for someone who says one thing but does another? Hippogryph? you're warm click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-

The-Errorist 690	Posted - 2014.05.21 05:58:00 - [591] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: CCP says that they want to make EVE: Legion special and unique, but their actions tell another story. Help me out here, guys, what's the word for someone who says one thing but does another? Hippogryph? So asking for a lot of feedback, having a plan set up, moving to a less restrictive platform, redesigning a lot of stuff, getting more devs to work on the project, and updating their engine doesn't seem to you as trying to make it special? MAG vet, Dust closed beta vet, and an alt of Velvet Overkill (infantry) & Agent Overkill (vehicle).
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4238	Posted - 2014.05.21 06:29:00 - [592] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: CCP says that they want to make EVE: Legion special and unique, but their actions tell another story. Help me out here, guys, what's the word for someone who says one thing but does another? Hippogryph? So asking for a lot of feedback, having a plan set up, moving to a less restrictive platform, redesigning a lot of stuff, getting more devs to work on the project, and updating their engine doesn't seem to you as trying to make it special? Not when all of the re-designs are downgrades. Now it might be FOR special people, but that doesn't make it special.
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1671	Posted - 2014.05.21 06:29:00 - [593] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: CCP says that they want to make EVE: Legion special and unique, but their actions tell another story. Help me out here, guys, what's the word for someone who says one thing but does another? Hippogryph? So asking for a lot of feedback, having a plan set up, moving to a less restrictive platform, redesigning a lot of stuff, getting more devs to work on the project, and updating their engine doesn't seem to you as trying to make it special? Feedback? Plans? Redesigns? Engine updates? More developers? Being on the PC? How do any of those things make a game "special"? I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
Dunce Masterson Savage Bullet 105	Posted - 2014.05.21 07:11:00 - [594] - Quote If you want Legion to live then PVE is going to have to be priority #1 Are you going to use some thing like the security system for missions restricting open pvp to every man for him self going from 1-0.0? are all the racial vehicles and turrets going to be in legions launch? It would be great to have the perfect imbalance in the game. Have you thought about making Medium weapons like a light machine gun and other suppression weapons for the Commandos to use? I don't even know why I bother.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4238	Posted - 2014.05.21 08:58:00 - [595] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: The-Errorist wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: CCP says that they want to make EVE: Legion special and unique, but their actions tell another story. Help me out here, guys, what's the word for someone who says one thing but does another? Hippogryph? So asking for a lot of feedback, having a plan set up, moving to a less restrictive platform, redesigning a lot of stuff, getting more devs to work on the project, and updating their engine doesn't seem to you as trying to make it special? Feedback? Plans? Redesigns? Engine updates? More developers? Being on the PC? How do any of those things make a game "special"? I believe you mean fewer developers. We're getting fewer developers.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3429	Posted - 2014.05.21 13:45:00 - [596] - Quote Pokey Dravon, include a copy of the link to the PDF outside of the quote. Quoted links are not active. It will save people a click if they can go straight to the PDF. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3430	Posted - 2014.05.21 13:55:00 - [597] - Quote Dunce Masterson wrote: If you want Legion to live then PVE is going to have to be priority #1 Are you going to use some thing like the security system for missions restricting open pvp to every man for him self going from 1-0.0? are all the racial vehicles and turrets going to be in legions launch? It would be great to have the perfect imbalance in the game. Have you thought about making Medium weapons like a light machine gun and other suppression weapons for the Commandos to use? Good points, wrong thread. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2068	Posted - 2014.05.21 14:07:00 - [598] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Pokey Dravon, include a copy of the link to the PDF outside of the quote. Quoted links are not active. It will save people a click if they can go straight to the PDF. I'm amazed I didn't notice that, thanks! And fixed. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1671	Posted - 2014.05.21 16:27:00 - [599] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: CCP says that they want to make EVE: Legion special and unique, but their actions tell another story. Help me out here, guys, what's the word for someone who says one thing but does another? Hippogryph? So asking for a lot of feedback, having a plan set up, moving to a less restrictive platform, redesigning a lot of stuff, getting more devs to work on the project, and updating their engine doesn't seem to you as trying to make it special? No, no it doesn't. Feedback? Plans? Redesigns? Engine updates? Are these supposed to be novel in the game industry? I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
The-Errorist Sver true blood 705	Posted - 2014.05.22 06:33:00 - [600] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: The-Errorist wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: CCP says that they want to make EVE: Legion special and unique, but their actions tell another story. Help me out here, guys, what's the word for someone who says one thing but does another? Hippogryph? So asking for a lot of feedback, having a plan set up, moving to a less restrictive platform, redesigning a lot of stuff, getting more devs to work on the project, and updating their engine doesn't seem to you as trying to make it special? No, no it doesn't. Feedback? Plans? Redesigns? Engine updates? Are these supposed to be novel in the game industry? Why are you trying to derail this thread and trying so hard to fight over this? Whether or not CCP is or not trying to make Legion special, something that's highly opinion based, is irrelevant to this thread. MAG vet, Dust closed beta vet, and an alt of Velvet Overkill (infantry) & Agent Overkill (vehicle).

Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8682	Posted - 2014.05.22 14:14:00 - [601] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: The-Errorist wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: CCP says that they want to make EVE: Legion special and unique, but their actions tell another story. Help me out here, guys, what's the word for someone who says one thing but does another? Hippogryph? So asking for a lot of feedback, having a plan set up, moving to a less restrictive platform, redesigning a lot of stuff, getting more devs to work on the project, and updating their engine doesn't seem to you as trying to make it special? No, no it doesn't. Feedback? Plans? Redesigns? Engine updates? Are these supposed to be novel in the game industry? Why are you trying to derail this thread and trying so hard to fight over this? Whether or not CCP is or not trying to make Legion special, something that's highly opinion based, is irrelevant to this thread. I agree. If people don't feel like doing anything at all except just derail threads for the sake of just derailing it, then what's the point? On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1671	Posted - 2014.05.22 17:14:00 - [602] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: The-Errorist wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: CCP says that they want to make EVE: Legion special and unique, but their actions tell another story. Help me out here, guys, what's the word for someone who says one thing but does another? Hippogryph? So asking for a lot of feedback, having a plan set up, moving to a less restrictive platform, redesigning a lot of stuff, getting more devs to work on the project, and updating their engine doesn't seem to you as trying to make it special? No, no it doesn't. Feedback? Plans? Redesigns? Engine updates? Are these supposed to be novel in the game industry? Why are you trying to derail this thread and trying so hard to fight over this? Whether or not CCP is or not trying to make Legion special, something that's highly opinion based, is irrelevant to this thread. The ironic thing is that by criticizing me for derailing the thread, you yourself are derailing the thread even more. Why not try to get back on-topic instead of continuing the vicious cycle, eh Errorist? Besides, I wasn't even trying to derail the thread. You stated your arguments for how CCP was making the game special, and I refuted them. If anything, it was you who tried to derail the thread by bringing up things outside the context of the progression system even though I was talking mostly in the context of the progression system. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
Auorra Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 0	Posted - 2014.05.22 19:27:00 - [603] - Quote I'm new to EVE Online as well as new to DUST 514. I'm a little concerned at starting a new game only to hear that it's going to be shut down. I'm not a huge fan of FPS's on the PC because I cannot afford to buy the joysticks and extras needed to really play the games. I don't have a PS Move. But it would appear to be something of great aid to an FPS on consoles. I guess what I am asking is if it worth investing my time any further in DUST. I don't want to play a game that is going to be yanked away in a few months. Nor do I want to put any money in to it for AUR for the same reason. I'm hoping for an official CCP person to respond to this. I'm well aware of what players are going to tell me. However colorfully they do so. If you are looking for feedback on this new Legion game, I can only say one thing: if you are going to include tutorials, you need to make them more new player friendly. The EVE franchise as a whole is not very kind to new players and can really be improved in how and what it teaches. Hoping for an answer back. If only I knew it required you to buy a skill before you could actually hit your target...
byte modal 95	Posted - 2014.05.22 20:04:00 - [604] - Quote Auorra wrote: I'm new to EVE Online as well as new to DUST 514. I'm a little concerned at starting a new game only to hear that it's going to be shut down. I'm not a huge fan of FPS's on the PC because I cannot afford to buy the joysticks and extras needed to really play the games. I don't have a PS Move. But it would appear to be something of great aid to an FPS on consoles. I guess what I am asking is if it worth investing my time any further in DUST. I don't want to play a game that is going to be yanked away in a few months. Nor do I want to put any money in to it for AUR for the same reason. I'm hoping for an official CCP person to respond to this. I'm well aware of what players are going to tell me. However colorfully they do so. If you are looking for feedback on this new Legion game, I can only say one thing: if you are going to include tutorials, you need to make them more new player friendly. The EVE franchise as a whole is not very kind to new players and can really be improved in how and what it teaches. Hoping for an answer back. You're going to get different answers depending on the context of those willing to reply to this. Not sure it's the right thread though, to be honest as the conversation can easily shift off to this very weighted topic instead of the OP. You might find more conversations like this on the DUST514 General Discussions, as opposed to the LEGION General Discussions here. With that said though, it really depends on your perspective and how willing you are to consider other perspectives. My PS3 retail games general cost $20-60US and last me 30-45 days average before I am bored. Using that for my point of reference, I have zero problem playing DUST and even buying AUR from time to time to keep me stocked on the gear and boosters that I like. I've spent a bit over $100US here, and have been playing for nearly 2 years. I think that's a more than fair return on investment. Especially considering I coulddrop $20 for a 2-hour movie with popcorn and a Coke. Are boosters worth it? Again, it depends on how you want to look at it. For me, I use the boosters to compensate for my lack of time to give to the game---time that if not at work, might be spent grinding SP to reach whatever suit or item to help my game or to expand my capabilities. AUR boosters help me reach that state just a bit faster, so for me being able to gain access to that last CK.0 is worth it to me. I'm not looking long term. I just want to fit a good weapon, some mods, and a good cloak. Hitting that was my goal, so for me the value spent (time and money) was well spent. Other players may consider their investment to pay off years later. Again though, it comes down to time-in compared to cost, compared to the cost of relative forms of entertainment. How many hours of fun am I getting out of whatever cash I'm willing to drop? How many hours of entertainment in the here-and-now are you getting? Find your limits and go from there. At this point you really have to look past all the potential hype that DUST was trying to bank on and play the game to enjoy it for what it is now, not down the road. Hey, I still play Chrono Trigger from time to time, or DUNE on my old Genesis EMU. Neither of those have a future either. Just my $0.02. All the best... - me. Irony: Post #35
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8687	Posted - 2014.05.23 02:18:00 - [605] - Quote It's been a while already. @CCP Z What's the news so far in regards to posting the full details (graphs, powerpoints and all) of the skill tree you have planned for us? When is it coming out? Many of us posted out details of what we think it should be. Now it's your turn. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Spademan The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 1724	Posted - 2014.05.23 21:11:00 - [606] - Quote I'd just like to bring this up for your consideration. It's got some pretty good ideas generated from it. Might be helpful. I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1359	Posted - 2014.05.24 08:11:00 - [607] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: It's been a while already. @CCP Z What's the news so far in regards to posting the full details (graphs, powerpoints and all) of the skill tree you have planned for us? When is it coming out? Many of us posted out details of what we think it should be. Now it's your turn. EDIT: For the record, I'm not asking for such details just for the sake of criticizing it. Far from it, I'm just saying that perhaps by showing the skill tree you're working on it might help alleviate the confusion that we see here in the forums and hopefully answer the questions that were left unanswered since the progression presentation at Fanfest 2014. We are obviously trying to work with you here to make sure this goes as smoothly as possible so it's only fair that you work with us as well. Thank you. https://twitter.com/ccp_z/status/470032103636082689 He's been working on the monitization this week (busy man). Remember, progression, monitization and the player market are all linked in legion. CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8701	Posted - 2014.05.24 15:15:00 - [608] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: It's been a while already. @CCP Z What's the news so far in regards to posting the full details (graphs, powerpoints and all) of the skill tree you have planned for us? When is it coming out? Many of us posted out details of what we think it should be. Now it's your turn. EDIT: For the record, I'm not asking for such details just for the sake of criticizing it. Far from it, I'm just saying that perhaps by showing the skill tree you're working on it might help alleviate the confusion that we see here in the forums and hopefully answer the questions that were left unanswered since the progression presentation at Fanfest 2014. We are obviously trying to work with you here to make sure this goes as smoothly as possible so it's only fair that you work with us as well. Thank you. https://twitter.com/ccp_z/status/470032103636082689 He's been working on the monitization this week (busy man). Remember, progression, monitization and the player market are all linked in legion. Thanks. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 123	Posted - 2014.05.25 15:41:00 - [609] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2169542#post2169542 PDF (Below Link): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6Pqc0ScXKN7OE1mczZ3RHduX180TU1MMEEzeW9LaU4yWDM0/edit?usp=sharing Pokey Dravon wrote: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6Pqc0ScXKN7OE1mczZ3RHduX180TU1MMEEzeW9LaU4yWDM0/edit?usp=sharing Please view PDF above at full zoom so all text is visible. Recent discussion has heavily been focused on the proposed ideas for the Skill System in EVE: Legion. Development feels that the current system is too complicated for the target audience, and has suggested a simplified system to make things easier for new players to understand. I however feel that simplifying the system excessively betrays the freedom of gameplay that is New Eden, and that the primary issue lies in the presentation of the system and not the system itself. The above PDF presents and interface designed to make Skilling easy for new players, while maintaining the depth of the skill system for veteran players. ... I'd love to hear some dev feedback on this. If the goal is simplifying the NPE, is there any concern that Pokey's suggestion doesn't serve that goal adequately? Does CCP Z perceive any downside to Pokey's suggestion? I can't think of any downside. Its fantastic.
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2415	Posted - 2014.05.25 17:33:00 - [610] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2169542#post2169542 PDF (Below Link): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6Pqc0ScXKN7OE1mczZ3RHduX180TU1MMEEzeW9LaU4yWDM0/edit?usp=sharing Pokey Dravon wrote: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6Pqc0ScXKN7OE1mczZ3RHduX180TU1MMEEzeW9LaU4yWDM0/edit?usp=sharing Please view PDF above at full zoom so all text is visible. Recent discussion has heavily been focused on the proposed ideas for the Skill System in EVE: Legion. Development feels that the current system is too complicated for the target audience, and has suggested a simplified system to make things easier for new players to understand. I however feel that simplifying the system excessively betrays the freedom of gameplay that is New Eden, and that the primary issue lies in the presentation of the system and not the system itself. The above PDF presents and interface designed to make Skilling easy for new players, while maintaining the depth of the skill system for veteran players. ... I'd love to hear some dev feedback on this. If the goal is simplifying the NPE, is there any concern that Pokey's suggestion doesn't serve that goal adequately? Does CCP Z perceive any downside to Pokey's suggestion? I can't think of any downside. Its fantastic. Of course he does, as it's better than his idea, and whatever his idea is is always right. After all, he has numbers click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-

Magpie Raven ZionTCD Top Men. 434	Posted - 2014.05.27 02:46:00 - [611] - Quote Likes Removal of Tiers: Yes! yes! yes! Ive never been a fan of the tier system. In my opinion it causes many of the issues Dust 514 has with balance, and protostomping. You just cant pit someone rocking Proto gear that does more damage along with boosted stats due to skills against someone using Basic and expect it to be fun for everyone. Its also a main reason why people get frustrated and quit Addition of generic non-racial dropsuits: Very cool idea. I am always in favor of more cool looking toys. I'll do a post about my ideas on them later Making it easier to understand: Very good. It can be intimidating and confusing for first time players. And mistakes are common even with older players Increasing the ability to specialize: Specializations beyond "Caldari Assault" is always good. Especially if they will be useful and cool, not just filler to lengthen the tree and as an SP sink. Meta level matchmaking: Great idea! I suggested this idea months ago but it never got anywhere on the forums. Maybe you guys saw it, or maybe not. Either way I approve Dislikes and why Removal of the 1-5 level system: Removing this system is just a part of the dumbing down problem Im seeing. And the resulting changes to accommodate a simple "unlock once and im done" process, I don't think many people will like. "Roles" locking skills/items into certain trees: Please just no. If I, as a Caldari Assault player, want to put armor plates on then I should be able to. I should not be forced to go down the Gallente tree just so I can unlock plates. Or if I want to be a scout with a Mass Driver. Don't force me to train Logistic skills just so I can get that weapon. Permanent Dropsuits: This goes against everything New Eden stands for. Everything should have a price and everything can be lost. When I heard this I kinda screamed in my head "NOOoooo. Why? That makes no sense" Overall sense of "dumbing it down": This is just the overall feeling Im getting from the info that Ive heard. In this game players enjoy the complexity, and having a long term goal to reach. Not the instant gratification and simplicity found in BF and COD. I agree it needs to be easier to understand, and made more accessible, but I fear its being gone about the wrong way. Possible Alternative Solutions 1. Removing the 1-5 system is a mistake I think. I know you want to remove tiers but leveling skills is also how we get our bonuses and unlock specializations. Does this mean you plan to give a flat one time bonus when something is skilled into? Or are bonuses going away? Instead why not give certain items multiple prerequisites? For example to use the Mass driver requires Light Weaponry at lvl 4, Projectile Tech at lvl 3, and Explosives at lvl 1. This way we can keep our bonuses and the levels still serve a purpose 2. Please do not "lock" certain items into Role Trees. Things need to be kept separate in the Weaponry, Dropsuits, Module, and Vehicle Trees. It is important that it be made clear what skills are useful for what roles and to try and minimize player mistakes but it should not be done by forcing players down specific trees. Instead do it through educating players and through certificate systems. 3. I really do understand what you want here. But I think it is unnecessary. Ive tried thinking of ways it could work and ways that it could be changed to achieve the desired effect but I cant think of anything. The only thing stopping a player from using his coolest new suit would be funding. So why not just keep dropsuits cheap? Let them become expensive through modules 4. Everyone agrees that changes need to be made so that the game is easier to understand and be made more accessible to the normal, causal player. But dont forget about your core player base. The complexity and higher level thinking is what attracts and holds alot of player. It shouldn't be made super complicated but don't dumb it down all in the name of trying to appeal to a certain crowd of players. Because in the long run they wont stick around. As soon as the next BF, COD, or Halo comes out they will all jump ship to play those games. Keep it enjoyable for us guys who play EVE or who wish they could but lack the time or patience to.
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 535	Posted - 2014.05.27 12:59:00 - [612] - Quote CCP Z wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Feedback on Progression I like a lot the sidegrades idea and that is something that our Design Team is currently looking at (more or less modules, different weapon types, different abilities like being able to hack or not ...) It seems like a long time since you posted any Project Legion updates. In response to your comments a week and a half ago... If you are going to deploy gameplay breaking customization - trade hacking ability for extra armor reps or whatever - then we need a spawn screen with a list of who is deployed, and what kind of kits they are using. I would prefer a graphical readout, but a spawn screen spreadsheet would also work. Useful information would include numbers and types of suits, and how many have the ability to hack an objective. If I can see that the whole team has spawned in with their non-hacking heavy suits, I can then pull out my hacking suit. As a follow up to this request, don't assume the role specialization rewards will be sufficient to keep everyone from training multiple roles. Either the benefits are so great and expensive (SP sinks) we actually stick with our one role, or they are hardly worth the extra trivial 5% bonus (n00b friendly) and we skill up multiple roles. You can't have it both ways, so I expect we will see a lot of mercs train multiple roles and fits, and we could randomly end up on a team of non-hacking heavies (without a spawn screen report). There will be bullets. ACR+SMG [CEO of Terror]
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A Caps and Mercs 508	Posted - 2014.05.27 13:33:00 - [613] - Quote Dont worry man, they have magic numbers. Design team wouldn-¦t screw the game up making it like similar more structured with larger public games, and the company wouldn-¦t make a PR fumble of ignoring internal advice and announcing something that would change the rules to the point of allienating the existing playerbase in a event to said players. It-¦s all cool, they have their **** together.
Angeal Wolfbane The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 12	Posted - 2014.05.27 18:08:00 - [614] - Quote Okay. Let me make something clear to all of you. I would like CCP to answer each of these comments to prove to me that they really care and are not trying to steal our time we put into DUST 514. Number 1: This supposed game "Project Legion" has not even been green lighted yet. So why are all of you putting so much hope into this game that is not even in the making. Number 2: CCP you are completely ignoring DUST 514 and have literally spat upon the console players at Fanfest. Although that it is true that DUST 514 could have more potential on a PC platform, however, many of the beta players are angered because the company of CCP have totally abandoned us and got our hopes up from the very beginning and crushed it with this supposed "Project Legion". If you really care CCP, you would have at least added more land to Planetary Conquest and also gave us a player market to at least show that your loyal to your player base which has decreased rapidly. Oh, and you have also lost the respect of many EVE players because of your little stunt at FanFest. Number 3: We are all getting tired of the word "IF". YOU HEAR ME CCP WE ARE TIRED OF IF! How do you expect people to be calm on the forums by giving us assumptions and guesses about what will happen in "Project Legion". If you all really want to save your franchise and if you really want to save your player base, which is hanging on by a thread, you better give us some real evidence, facts, updates to dust, and a date for "Project Legion" or you and this supposed new game of yours will fall. I WANT ANSWERS! NOT ONLY FOR MYSELF, BUT FOR THE MANY PLAYERS THAT HAVE BEEN BETRAYED BY YOUR COMPANY! IF YOU ALL REALLY WANT TO PROVE YOURSELVES AS GAME DEVELOPERS ANSWER MY NUMBER OF PROBLEMS IF YOU DARE! THEN WILL SEE JUST HOW GREAT YOUR PEOPLE ARE!
byte modal 96	Posted - 2014.05.27 21:25:00 - [615] - Quote Angeal Wolfbane wrote: Okay. Let me make something clear to all of you. I would like CCP to answer each of these comments to prove to me that they really care and are not trying to steal our time we put into DUST 514. Number 1: This supposed game "Project Legion" has not even been green lighted yet. So why are all of you putting so much hope into this game that is not even in the making. Number 2: CCP you are completely ignoring DUST 514 and have literally spat upon the console players at Fanfest. Although that it is true that DUST 514 could have more potential on a PC platform, however, many of the beta players are angered because the company of CCP have totally abandoned us and got our hopes up from the very beginning and crushed it with this supposed "Project Legion". If you really care CCP, you would have at least added more land to Planetary Conquest and also gave us a player market to at least show that your loyal to your player base which has decreased rapidly. Oh, and you have also lost the respect of many EVE players because of your little stunt at FanFest. Number 3: We are all getting tired of the word "IF". YOU HEAR ME CCP WE ARE TIRED OF IF! How do you expect people to be calm on the forums by giving us assumptions and guesses about what will happen in "Project Legion". If you all really want to save your franchise and if you really want to save your player base, which is hanging on by a thread, you better give us some real evidence, facts, updates to dust, and a date for "Project Legion" or you and this supposed new game of yours will fall. I WANT ANSWERS! NOT ONLY FOR MYSELF, BUT FOR THE MANY PLAYERS THAT HAVE BEEN BETRAYED BY YOUR COMPANY! IF YOU ALL REALLY WANT TO PROVE YOURSELVES AS GAME DEVELOPERS ANSWER MY NUMBER OF PROBLEMS IF YOU DARE! THEN WILL SEE JUST HOW GREAT YOUR PEOPLE ARE! "We" is a relative term here. Hey, I've made my pissy-mood rib nudges all in this thread, but even with that I still did so while remaining on point to the OP, or at least to the general discussion taking place at the point of my comment. Mostly though, I showed respect. To get to your points: 1. We have hope because whether it is made or not, it is an interesting thought exercise to share ideas with other players of similar interests and to, from time to time, see dev acknowledgments. Or at the very least find arguments against said ideas. Excitement comes in the potential that DUST alluded to. Frustration comes in the poor decisions on execution. Note, please, that I refer to management, not the dev staff. I work a day job where I wouldn't dare do on my own what we put out here at the office. Sadly, I know too well that decisions are usually made in a vacuum by those higher-ups that stumbled into a position of matter. It's not my work, technically, but the best work that I can provide given the conditions set around me. DUST showed potential, but was mismanaged (IMHO) and some really odd choices were made. Excitement returns knowing that if there will be continued development, it will done on a platform that 1) is better suited for the vision that is, and 2) is simply more familiar. 2. You've missed the boat by a few weeks. Go back to DUST GD and necro a few hundred posts that have already stated more eloquently or more trollery (take your pick) than what you are trying to retread here. Speaking as an EVE player, CCP still keeps my respect over all. Sure, I'm disappointed with how FF played out. I would assume many were. I can't speak for them, nor can you speak for me. Regardless, frustration over a singular event is petty given how long EVE has existed and how far it has evolved. As an EVE player, I get it. As a gamer in general, I can respect that. As an empathetic human being well past emo-riddled puberty, I can relate to making mistakes, attempting understanding, and offering forgiveness. If I were to judge everyone, every entity or group on poor execution, well, that would be a sad and lonely little world. 3. We? Hey, I get the frustration. Again, it was all over the DUST GD not long ago. You're preaching to the choir, though we've all heard the sermon a few times now. Most of us have put down the pitchforks and torches and accepted reality. It's really a better place to be. Regardless of what comes, I'm not the only one who actually enjoys playing the game. I will continue to do so until they unplug her. Yeah, there are things that infuriate me, but ultimately it's their game to develop or to burn. I paid money to play and I got my entertainment from it---money well spent given the cost to entertainment value. Done and done. Taking it day by day. If LEGION comes? Bonus. If not? It was a fun experiment and I'm happy to have been part. regarding the ALLCAP section: wrong thread, wrong forum. Sorry =\ In through the nose... out through the mouth... slowly. - me. Irony: Post #35
Angeal Wolfbane The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 12	Posted - 2014.05.28 05:13:00 - [616] - Quote I'm sorry that you misunderstood me. I want more answers about this new supposed game that they say is in the making. I wouldpike for them to give us more answers and qunit these if statements. Its when they say, " if this game is part promising" shows me that they have no support or faith in their game. They have a lot of trust to when back if Project Legion is going to work. Because they slapped every DUST player in the face and that infuriates me.
byte modal 97	Posted - 2014.05.28 05:50:00 - [617] - Quote Angeal Wolfbane wrote: I'm sorry that you misunderstood me. I want more answers about this new supposed game that they say is in the making. I wouldpike for them to give us more answers and qunit these if statements. Its when they say, " if this game is part promising" shows me that they have no support or faith in their game. They have a lot of trust to when back if Project Legion is going to work. Because they slapped every DUST player in the face and that infuriates me. Fair enough. But understand that they are devs. No matter how much they each may want to promise something, or hint at what they intend to do, it's really not up to them but the higher-ups I would feel. While this may not be exactly what you are looking for, it is a good thread full of good back and forth of dev tests and ideas. Maybe you can find something inspiring there to help rebuild your faith? Link here All the best. - me. Irony: Post #35
Angeal Wolfbane The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 12	Posted - 2014.05.28 13:30:00 - [618] - Quote Okay, I will go along with this for now. Hopefully they don't screw with us down the road. Now I will give some of my insight on what would be cool to see in DUST: More interaction with with EVE players: Instead of our clones going to a clone station and awaken in an awaiting body there lets have another way just in case. For example, lets say they make it where Corporations in EVE Legion only have the power to provide a CRU to the planets district. However, lets say the corporation doesn't have a lot of money to do this. That's when they turn to the EVE players battle cruisers that can transport troops across the galaxy and deliver them to the planet. In addition, this can also prove dangerous to both EVE and DUST Characters because if the cruiser that the Mercenaries are on blows up, then lets just say that that cruiser better of been a decoy LOL ( Hint: DUST players could also have their own cannons on EVE ships so that they can fight too in space to prevent their EVE allies annihilation). Tell me what you guys think, because I think this would be really cool to see in EVE LEGION.
byte modal 97	Posted - 2014.05.28 13:52:00 - [619] - Quote I'll be honest. I think a lot of EVE players at one point or another have fantasized about having player-controlled crews on board in just such a scenario that you describe. That and being able to set foot on a planet's surface. While technically the EVE pilot cannot, DUST was a huge and happy compromise---at least for me. Let's see what LEGION has in store... I think your post would get more attention though in the LEGION General Discussion forums here. This thread is mostly about discussion of skills and player progression/leveling. I'm afraid it may just get swallowed up here =( Also, near the end of that thread I linked in my first reply to you, there was a conversation going on about how a LEGION merc would travel from Point A to B for battles. Mostly, it was about the battle finder system, but I think some people were commenting how they would like to see it realized. You might get attention there too with the idea. I still think your own post would get the most. Either way, good luck and thanks for the conversation - me. Irony: Post #35

CCP Z C C P C C P Alliance 127	Posted - 2014.05.29 02:36:00 - [620] - Quote Hey guys, Sorry it took me so long to get back to you. The current focus is on making the Market, so I was really busy! Let's start with answering some questions, and again, sorry if I missed yours but ... 31 pages ... Quote: He must be trying to derive a substantial amount of income from respecs - and all respec discussion The primary goal of a respec system was more to allow people who made a mistake to correct it than to make money out of it. I did not foresee that it will create such a big debate :) I will get back to our design team to work on it. Quote: Survey Discussion That's where we have to stop guys. That is not constructive AT ALL! We did a survey, we have our results, just trust me on that. If we start questioning that kind of things, it will be impossible to have a good conversation. Quote: Just to reiterate fully however, once unlocked those weapons can be used in any fit/with any suit so regardless of race or role correct? (with the possible exception of special cases such has Heavy Weapons) Yes and yes again. We are keeping all the functionalities we currently have in DUST, the tree example you saw in my presentation is a GEAR UNLOCK tree, so once we unlock one piece of equipment, you can use it the same way it si in DUST right now. Quote: NPE Discussion I agree with all of you guys on that. Our current NPE is bad so we are working on a new and much better one. This will solve a lot of the complexity issues we are seeing in the game right now. Overall Progression still is much more than just NPE. Right now our Progression system is the center of our Economy Flows. As CCP_Rouge said during his presentation, we want a Player Driven Economy, where you loot your gear and then sell it to other players. This Progression will be the base on how loot will be distributed, on how the overall economy will work. Quote: Drop Suit BPO I understand what some of you said: it is against some ideas we have in new Eden. I still think that we are doing that for the greater good. Not owning anything in a game is conter-intuitive for many people. It does not change anything on the ISK sink they were, we will just have to adjust other sinks. Quote: Natus Nobilis NFS World Progression System No, we are not getting that Progression. We all know that Legion Progression will be much deeper, much more interesting and a lot more integrated in the Core Experience. I will go through all the design that some of you worked on and discuss them on the different thread. Thanks again for your feedback, it is helping us a lot! Z Monetization and Progression Producer -CCP Z


Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5842	Posted - 2014.05.29 03:09:00 - [621] - Quote CCP Z wrote: Hey guys, Sorry it took me so long to get back to you. The current focus is on making the Market, so I was really busy! Let's start with answering some questions, and again, sorry if I missed yours but ... 31 pages ... To combat the general feeling that player's have - that weapons/modules will be locked behind roles - are you interested in providing ways to jump directly to what they want, within moderation? I can understand the mutual dislike for having to go through an entire role just to get a certain weapon that I like. Another consideration is how much SP all of this will cost? How hard will it be for me to specialize in, say, Assaults and then have to go through the Logistics tree to unlock 'x' weapon? This sort of thing matters on a play-time scale, it probably shouldn't take me weeks/months to unlock a particular weapon locked behind a role. Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 10963	Posted - 2014.05.29 09:06:00 - [622] - Quote Do basic frames exist in legion? Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1366	Posted - 2014.05.29 09:23:00 - [623] - Quote CCP Z wrote: Hey guys, Sorry it took me so long to get back to you. The current focus is on making the Market, so I was really busy! Quote: NPE Discussion I agree with all of you guys on that. Our current NPE is bad so we are working on a new and much better one. This will solve a lot of the complexity issues we are seeing in the game right now. Overall Progression still is much more than just NPE. Right now our Progression system is the center of our Economy Flows. As CCP_Rouge said during his presentation, we want a Player Driven Economy, where you loot your gear and then sell it to other players. This Progression will be the base on how loot will be distributed, on how the overall economy will work. Thanks again for your feedback, it is helping us a lot! Z This is the part I'm particularly looking forward to Z. I know you explained a lot of it when we were in The English Pub when we first met. Some of the more salient points remain a little foggy due to the multiple tequilas that CCP Praetorian 'forced' me to drink but I do remember being terribly excited about what you were hoping to achieve. So a bit more about that when you can please. Cheers. CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Aikuchi Tomaru Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2598	Posted - 2014.05.29 11:51:00 - [624] - Quote CCP Z wrote: Hey guys, Sorry it took me so long to get back to you. The current focus is on making the Market, so I was really busy! Let's start with answering some questions, and again, sorry if I missed yours but ... 31 pages ... Quote: He must be trying to derive a substantial amount of income from respecs - and all respec discussion The primary goal of a respec system was more to allow people who made a mistake to correct it than to make money out of it. I did not foresee that it will create such a big debate :) I will get back to our design team to work on it. Isn't the whole point of redesigning how the skillsystem works in Legion so mistakes aren't as sever anymore? You told us something about maybe a week of skilltime to be relatively efficient with a new role. All the more reason to NOT have a respec system at all. Sign up for Caldari FW and defeat the evil Gallente Overlords!
Aikuchi Tomaru Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2598	Posted - 2014.05.29 11:56:00 - [625] - Quote CCP Z wrote: Quote: Drop Suit BPO I understand what some of you said: it is against some ideas we have in new Eden. I still think that we are doing that for the greater good. Not owning anything in a game is conter-intuitive for many people. It does not change anything on the ISK sink they were, we will just have to adjust other sinks. With the new rarity system: Why should I use a normal dropsuit over a rare suit when all dropsuits are BPO? Isn't that just turning the problem we had in Dust around? Actually it will probably make it worse. In Dust everybody used militia or std gear most of the time, unless they were going into important battles or ran with a squad. With the Dropsuit BPOs now everybody will only use rare suits ll the time, never going back to anything worse. Sign up for Caldari FW and defeat the evil Gallente Overlords!
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 2004	Posted - 2014.05.29 13:18:00 - [626] - Quote CCP Z wrote: Quote: Drop Suit BPO I understand what some of you said: it is against some ideas we have in new Eden. I still think that we are doing that for the greater good. Not owning anything in a game is conter-intuitive for many people. It does not change anything on the ISK sink they were, we will just have to adjust other sinks. If we get an Eve-style charaction creation process where we see ourselves outside of our Dropsuits and you drive home the idea of buying gear, it will only be counter-intuitive to the morons (which, lets be honest, do we really want the morons in Legion?). Hell, you could even give us the option to go into battle without a dropsuit. It would be a sub-par setup (1 LW, 1 SA, 1G, 1E) and only available in certain situations (non-hostile environment temperate planets), but it could be an option and it would be a good reminder that we only own that which we spend our AUR/Isk on (though we only own the quantities that we purchase). Stand apart from the other ** shooters on the market, if we wanted to play them, we would be playing them rather than Dust/Legion. There is no reason that we need to have our hands held in this way and IMHO it is the top of a slippery slope through the "BPO-ification" of all items because some simpletons *** and moan about being consumers within the game and how they don't want to have to math. If only you'd commit to ensuring your players understand how and why Dust/Legion stands apart you could forget this process of oversimplification. Minmatar Weapons Specialist Explosives Connoisseur Logi for Hire
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2481	Posted - 2014.05.30 00:02:00 - [627] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: CCP Z wrote: Quote: Drop Suit BPO I understand what some of you said: it is against some ideas we have in new Eden. I still think that we are doing that for the greater good. Not owning anything in a game is conter-intuitive for many people. It does not change anything on the ISK sink they were, we will just have to adjust other sinks. If we get an Eve-style charaction creation process where we see ourselves outside of our Dropsuits and you drive home the idea of buying gear, it will only be counter-intuitive to the morons (which, lets be honest, do we really want the morons in Legion?). Hell, you could even give us the option to go into battle without a dropsuit. It would be a sub-par setup (1 LW, 1 SA, 1G, 1E) and only available in certain situations (non-hostile environment temperate planets), but it could be an option and it would be a good reminder that we only own that which we spend our AUR/Isk on (though we only own the quantities that we purchase). Stand apart from the other ** shooters on the market, if we wanted to play them, we would be playing them rather than Dust/Legion. There is no reason that we need to have our hands held in this way and IMHO it is the top of a slippery slope through the "BPO-ification" of all items because some simpletons *** and moan about being consumers within the game and how they don't want to have to math. If only you'd commit to ensuring your players understand how and why Dust/Legion stands apart you could forget this process of oversimplification. Nailed it. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A 509	Posted - 2014.05.30 04:46:00 - [628] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: CCP Z wrote: Quote: Drop Suit BPO I understand what some of you said: it is against some ideas we have in new Eden. I still think that we are doing that for the greater good. Not owning anything in a game is conter-intuitive for many people. It does not change anything on the ISK sink they were, we will just have to adjust other sinks. If we get an Eve-style charaction creation process where we see ourselves outside of our Dropsuits and you drive home the idea of buying gear, it will only be counter-intuitive to the morons (which, lets be honest, do we really want the morons in Legion?). Hell, you could even give us the option to go into battle without a dropsuit. It would be a sub-par setup (1 LW, 1 SA, 1G, 1E) and only available in certain situations (non-hostile environment temperate planets), but it could be an option and it would be a good reminder that we only own that which we spend our AUR/Isk on (though we only own the quantities that we purchase). Stand apart from the other ** shooters on the market, if we wanted to play them, we would be playing them rather than Dust/Legion. There is no reason that we need to have our hands held in this way and IMHO it is the top of a slippery slope through the "BPO-ification" of all items because some simpletons *** and moan about being consumers within the game and how they don't want to have to math. If only you'd commit to ensuring your players understand how and why Dust/Legion stands apart you could forget this process of oversimplification. This, this this. And it's not against "some ideas in new Eden" it's against ALL New Eden stands for. Using BPO for unlimited withou costa its Aldo another bad thing when trying to integrante the games. BPO means i only hav+¬ to worry about production costs withiut worrying about copy licenses. Everything but militia stuff should have a production cost.
steadyhand amarr shadows of 514 3138	Posted - 2014.05.30 13:00:00 - [629] - Quote Queation how are u going to solve a bad run leaves you with nothing and the player quits the game. Legion IS NOT EVE please stop trying to make it EvE.2 that line of thinking will kill this game just as fast as it killed dust. Shooter fans are not intrested fullstop its great that you guys are but to 80% casual playerbase just wont care. So like it not legion needs to be diffrent and im ready to get militant on that please adjust your mindsets Dust died because it was too complex for avatage joe who wants to shoot things. Speak to any shooter fan, simple easy to understand reward loops is what keeps us ingaged and a shiny thing to work towords. Legion will attract a different kind of gamer who tolerate EvEs bull. Yes legion needs to stand out but Its not EvE so stop sourceing EvE on why we cant do things. (if u dont believe me ask yourself why their are no pure shooter fans left here i think im the only non EvE player here sometimes and i hate EvE because i dont have time to spend weeks and months grinding out a magic number just for some nolife nerd to gank me and set me back to zero) Ug im going to make a thread on this subject tonight this needs debate or legion will fail just as hard as dust "i dont care about you or your goals, just show me the dam isk" winner of EU squad cup GOGO power rangers
byte modal 97	Posted - 2014.05.30 13:49:00 - [630] - Quote steadyhand amarr wrote: Queation how are u going to solve a bad run leaves you with nothing and the player quits the game. Legion IS NOT EVE please stop trying to make it EvE.2 that line of thinking will kill this game just as fast as it killed dust. Shooter fans are not intrested fullstop its great that you guys are but to 80% casual playerbase just wont care. So like it not legion needs to be diffrent and im ready to get militant on that please adjust your mindsets Dust died because it was too complex for avatage joe who wants to shoot things. Speak to any shooter fan, simple easy to understand reward loops is what keeps us ingaged and a shiny thing to work towords. Legion will attract a different kind of gamer who tolerate EvEs bull. Yes legion needs to stand out but Its not EvE so stop sourceing EvE on why we cant do things. (if u dont believe me ask yourself why their are no pure shooter fans left here i think im the only non EvE player here sometimes and i hate EvE because i dont have time to spend weeks and months grinding out a magic number just for some nolife nerd to gank me and set me back to zero) Ug im going to make a thread on this subject tonight this needs debate or legion will fail just as hard as dust Make the thread, just bother to research your own assumptions before doing so. Complexity alone didn't kill DUST. The game released to the world as an incomplete and seemingly rushed BETA. Imbalance Incomplete Racial Dropsuits Missing Weapon Classes Missing Racial Weapon Variations Poor Hit Detection Non-standard Skills (some gave bonuses, some unlocked gear, and some of THOSE only unlocked up to level 3) Slow Game Speeds TTK Non-intuitive Game Play (both direct and meta level) Due to ....wait for it..... >>> ZERO Explanation of Purpose, Logic, Intent, or Direction/Instruction Confusion Between BPO, ISK, and AUR Purchases Two DIFFERENT Skill Tree Representations (3, if you want to count all the skills polluting market items) Market Screens Polluted with Skill Requirements (visually chaotic and logically intimidating to new players) AURUM based market items that appear out of order with the would-be racial "alphabetical" order. No ability to see a direct comparison on affects of gear/modules to suits LAG ProtoStompTheYard ZERO reference to or use of Security Space to ensure new player transition Lock-Ups and Hard Freezes Scotty (or lack there of) Removal of Auto-squad to at least nudge new players into the system ..... I will return to this to complete the thought and to return this diversion back to point lol, but damnit I'm at work and have to do some of that ;) I'll be back though.... Irony: Post #35

steadyhand amarr shadows of 514 3138	Posted - 2014.05.30 14:37:00 - [631] - Quote Oh dont get me wrong dust was a big bag of fail in many ways. But a lot of above could be tolerateed if players new what the **** was going on. But yeh a lot of the above is was done because they treated the game like EvE i should no i was here from the start. Also look at your list a big problem of dust is itcomplex not deep their is a difference and it started with how ccp wanted to do progresion. All of it traces back to the skill system. Under no situation should need a video or txt to explain whats going on. Everything should be easy to follow and understand onlu getting complex near the end game, WoW was nearly flawless in this. My big point is Dust514 tried to be EvE. Shooter fans dont want an EvE they want a persitant cod/ bf2142 so we need desgin the game around that understanding. Fluff lore feel of new eden of course but we should not look to EvE on how to do things EvE is a space sim legion is a shooter they could not be more diffrent and i wont watch the same debats we had in closed beta repeat here. Im also 4 banning EvE in any debate and stating you must look to other shooters as an example or make the argument stand on its own feet, saying its not new eden is a load of bull, legion is legion and the new kid is going to change the rules "i dont care about you or your goals, just show me the dam isk" winner of EU squad cup GOGO power rangers
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition 2989	Posted - 2014.05.30 14:53:00 - [632] - Quote I'm curious... for those who are worried about Legion losing its 'EVE" feel. Did you prefer Chromosome's skill tree to Uprisings?
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A 510	Posted - 2014.05.30 14:59:00 - [633] - Quote Dust failed beause it was launched half-implemented. Incomplete Modules Incomplete Vehicles Incomplete Skills Incomplete and repetitive modes No PvE Nothing to do but the same maps over and over and over and over and over and over nd over again. Blaming on the skill tree it-¦s just lazy work. Jut beause your whole moetization plan is attached to the progression i-¦ve seen that it won-¦t be subject to change. And Z, i didn-¦t want at any moment to take a look at the results of the survey, i merely asked for you guys to take a look at the numebrs taking in account that a half-implemented skil tree recieves the same negative review as a difficult tree, and the solution for these 2 situations are different. But, i-¦m just a player, you guys are the company, and when i have a game that i want to play, i-¦ll play it. Hope you guys can make it.
byte modal 97	Posted - 2014.05.30 17:00:00 - [634] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: I'm curious... for those who are worried about Legion losing its 'EVE" feel. Did you prefer Chromosome's skill tree to Uprisings? As an EVE player, I could relate to the original skill tree easier than some---nothing backing that up except talk around the forums at the time. That's not to say that I found it efficient, pleasing, or technically easy to understand, just that I could relate to it without much effort. It was pretty bad though knowing its purpose and how little there was to help non-EVE players relate. I mean in design. Transition to the later node-based graphic skill tree was awkward. At first glance I didn't want to bother with it because I already understood the original. Now though, the later is all that I use. I do want to point out though that the core concept is the same, only the representation of that concept has changed. I think your specific question and the conversations that may branch from it could cover many subtle shifts, but at the core, I think EVE players are arguing to keep the concept within the EVE realm of thought, just have better representation of how that translates in a FSP mindset---not knocking one or the other. It FEELS (again, without much backing that up either except talk around the forums) that the concept is shifting a bit too far. Here's a Mario universe game but.. without mushrooms. Kinda. lol? I think I may be trying to answer another post by burying it into my reply here. If I missed your point, sorry! Irony: Post #35
byte modal 97	Posted - 2014.05.30 18:23:00 - [635] - Quote steadyhand amarr wrote: Oh dont get me wrong dust was a big bag of fail in many ways. But a lot of above could be tolerateed if players new what the **** was going on. But yeh a lot of the above is was done because they treated the game like EvE i should no i was here from the start. Also look at your list a big problem of dust is itcomplex not deep their is a difference and it started with how ccp wanted to do progresion. All of it traces back to the skill system. Under no situation should need a video or txt to explain whats going on. Everything should be easy to follow and understand onlu getting complex near the end game, WoW was nearly flawless in this. My big point is Dust514 tried to be EvE. Shooter fans dont want an EvE they want a persitant cod/ bf2142 so we need desgin the game around that understanding. Fluff lore feel of new eden of course but we should not look to EvE on how to do things EvE is a space sim legion is a shooter they could not be more diffrent and i wont watch the same debats we had in closed beta repeat here. Im also 4 banning EvE in any debate and stating you must look to other shooters as an example or make the argument stand on its own feet, saying its not new eden is a load of bull, legion is legion and the new kid is going to change the rules Eh, a lot of that is my point. First let me be clear I don't want to sound like I'm just being a smart ass or anything lol. I'm just sharing a point of view here. Right or wrong ,eh wtf. Ya know? That out of the way, DUST IMHO, never tried to be EVE. It was a jumble of random parts from EVE that had nothing to do with each other, let alone the concepts of EVE. much of my list isn't at all related to complexity. It was just a broken release. There are players coming from EVE that may play it no matter what just for branding's sake. Others because it's "different". I think that most though will see a jumbled mess of an interface without clear logic that links you from one thing to another conceptually, and they throw their hands up and move on. It was a free DL after all, so oh well. On to the next. I don't want the extreme here, playing a dull spreadsheet FPS shooter full-on EVE mode. At least for me, I just don't want the EVE flavor to be so watered down and diluted that it no longer falls within the EVE Universe. Use only what you can afford to lose; skills that are universal allowing ONE character to play unique roles relative to the context of the game at hand (not single role, sub-tiered class-driven like warcraft); security space that matters for new players to integrate; a skill system that grows and evolves with the player; and a damn serious death penalty! Hey, I still play WoW, but I play EVE to get the hell away from that too. Again, I don't think we want an EVE clone. I'm sure some do, but I doubt that's the main argument. Search the forums, there are countless posts from capsulers clearly explaining what it is that they hope for to make a better, but still UNIQUE, FPS. I'm from Closed Beta myself, so ya. And I don't necessarily disagree with you about needing a complex video or text block to understand; however, as a graphic designer, I totally understand how much that can be addressed by using a properly designed and thought out interface (I'm talking menu structure, navigation, hierarchy, etc.) if that were done right you probably wouldn't need anything more to understand the concept but maybe a shooting range or something to apply and test that concept. You're also right that LEGION is not EVE, but as long as the game insists on being part of the EVE universe, there are core principles that really should be kept. Otherwise, why bother wasting the time? Just make another COD? I mean, honestly man? Why bother leveraging the EVE name at all? Just create a sister corporation and develop independently and done. I'd play that game too, but here we are. I guess my Mario without Mushrooms would better fit here =\ Idunno man. I get what you're saying, but disagree. I don't want EVE. I just want the concept to remain in tact. I also want the failure of a poorly implemented and unnecessarily bloated experience to stop being the justification of nixing EVE concepts. The two ARE different. That's like saying I'm never eating chinese food again because this Domino's pizza is the sux. Yeah, it does. So order the right thing next time ;) Irony: Post #35
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2482	Posted - 2014.05.30 19:17:00 - [636] - Quote byte modal wrote: steadyhand amarr wrote: Oh dont get me wrong dust was a big bag of fail in many ways. But a lot of above could be tolerateed if players new what the **** was going on. But yeh a lot of the above is was done because they treated the game like EvE i should no i was here from the start. Also look at your list a big problem of dust is itcomplex not deep their is a difference and it started with how ccp wanted to do progresion. All of it traces back to the skill system. Under no situation should need a video or txt to explain whats going on. Everything should be easy to follow and understand onlu getting complex near the end game, WoW was nearly flawless in this. My big point is Dust514 tried to be EvE. Shooter fans dont want an EvE they want a persitant cod/ bf2142 so we need desgin the game around that understanding. Fluff lore feel of new eden of course but we should not look to EvE on how to do things EvE is a space sim legion is a shooter they could not be more diffrent and i wont watch the same debats we had in closed beta repeat here. Im also 4 banning EvE in any debate and stating you must look to other shooters as an example or make the argument stand on its own feet, saying its not new eden is a load of bull, legion is legion and the new kid is going to change the rules Eh, a lot of that is my point. First let me be clear I don't want to sound like I'm just being a smart ass or anything lol. I'm just sharing a point of view here. Right or wrong ,eh wtf. Ya know? That out of the way, DUST IMHO, never tried to be EVE. It was a jumble of random parts from EVE that had nothing to do with each other, let alone the concepts of EVE. much of my list isn't at all related to complexity. It was just a broken release. There are players coming from EVE that may play it no matter what just for branding's sake. Others because it's "different". I think that most though will see a jumbled mess of an interface without clear logic that links you from one thing to another conceptually, and they throw their hands up and move on. It was a free DL after all, so oh well. On to the next. I don't want the extreme here, playing a dull spreadsheet FPS shooter full-on EVE mode. At least for me, I just don't want the EVE flavor to be so watered down and diluted that it no longer falls within the EVE Universe. Use only what you can afford to lose; skills that are universal allowing ONE character to play unique roles relative to the context of the game at hand (not single role, sub-tiered class-driven like warcraft); security space that matters for new players to integrate; a skill system that grows and evolves with the player; and a damn serious death penalty! Hey, I still play WoW, but I play EVE to get the hell away from that too. Again, I don't think we want an EVE clone. I'm sure some do, but I doubt that's the main argument. Search the forums, there are countless posts from capsulers clearly explaining what it is that they hope for to make a better, but still UNIQUE, FPS. I'm from Closed Beta myself, so ya. And I don't necessarily disagree with you about needing a complex video or text block to understand; however, as a graphic designer, I totally understand how much that can be addressed by using a properly designed and thought out interface (I'm talking menu structure, navigation, hierarchy, etc.) if that were done right you probably wouldn't need anything more to understand the concept but maybe a shooting range or something to apply and test that concept. You're also right that LEGION is not EVE, but as long as the game insists on being part of the EVE universe, there are core principles that really should be kept. Otherwise, why bother wasting the time? Just make another COD? I mean, honestly man? Why bother leveraging the EVE name at all? Just create a sister corporation and develop independently and done. I'd play that game too, but here we are. I guess my Mario without Mushrooms would better fit here =\ Idunno man. I get what you're saying, but disagree. I don't want EVE. I just want the concept to remain in tact. I also want the failure of a poorly implemented and unnecessarily bloated experience to stop being the justification of nixing EVE concepts. The two ARE different. That's like saying I'm never eating chinese food again because this Domino's pizza is the sux. Yeah, it does. So order the right thing next time ;) Nailed it. I swear, people have been nailing **** all this week click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A 511	Posted - 2014.05.30 19:34:00 - [637] - Quote IGN Interviewer: So, what are your expectations about Project Legion Player: Mario without Mushrooms. The main complain is about the "Core", the "Soul", the elements that makes "New Eden" a "New Eden", and all the things that are not New Eden being Named New Eden. Dust is not EVE, Legion is not EVE, Valyrie is not EVE, and no one wants it to be EVE because only EVE is EVE. But to deserve a "New Eden" seal of approval there-¦s a certain "Internal Consistency" that doesn-¦t appear to be respected right now. Yes there will be New Eden Elements, planets, technology, background, but so far, i dont see new eden soul. Valkyrie it-¦s a totally different thing from EVE and i didn-¦t see (nor have) any complaint so far about the soul of new eden. 30 pages of discussion resumed in one sentence. Mario without mushrooms in a 2014 game scene.
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition 2992	Posted - 2014.05.30 19:59:00 - [638] - Quote byte modal wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: I'm curious... for those who are worried about Legion losing its 'EVE" feel. Did you prefer Chromosome's skill tree to Uprisings? As an EVE player, I could relate to the original skill tree easier than some---nothing backing that up except talk around the forums at the time. That's not to say that I found it efficient, pleasing, or technically easy to understand, just that I could relate to it without much effort. It was pretty bad though knowing its purpose and how little there was to help non-EVE players relate. I mean in design. Transition to the later node-based graphic skill tree was awkward. At first glance I didn't want to bother with it because I already understood the original. Now though, the later is all that I use. I do want to point out though that the core concept is the same, only the representation of that concept has changed. I think your specific question and the conversations that may branch from it could cover many subtle shifts, but at the core, I think EVE players are arguing to keep the concept within the EVE realm of thought, just have better representation of how that translates in a FSP mindset---not knocking one or the other. It FEELS (again, without much backing that up either except talk around the forums) that the concept is shifting a bit too far. Here's a Mario universe game but.. without mushrooms. Kinda. lol? I think I may be trying to answer another post by burying it into my reply here. If I missed your point, sorry! I was just curious. I feel that it is a somewhat analogous case though. In chromosome we had secondary skill requirements a la EVE and in Uprising it became completely linear. In terms of the 'EVE' feel, the chromosome skill tree should generally be preferred, as it was essentially EVEs skill tree adapted to ground based combat as well as they could. They then went to completely dumb down the skill tree. Instead of using the names like in EVE, say 'Shield Management' for example, they renamed everything to its module name. So it became 'Dropsuit Shields' and 'Shield Extension', 'Shield Recharging' etc etc. It became completely linear, and not very 'eve-like' at all. I really never saw that much in terms of "linearized the skill tree ruined uprising" posts. You know? If the Chromosome to Uprising skill rework wasn't a complete crisis and breakdown of the entire structure of the game, maybe, just maybe, the Legion skill tree won't be either?
steadyhand amarr shadows of 514 3138	Posted - 2014.05.30 20:06:00 - [639] - Quote Byte i think we agree at the core level i agree maybe dusts jumbled mess as made me very nervous on the subject, another core worry is that people are just ditching an idea because its diffrent. If Z had gone you can spawn in 3 types of clone thin fast or a bit in middle and as you skill up you get better at using it, to show this we give you fluff items. Most people would have been happy because its the word clone instead of dropsuit. Also good post byte have people who actually debate is taking some getting used too :-P "i dont care about you or your goals, just show me the dam isk" winner of EU squad cup GOGO power rangers
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2483	Posted - 2014.05.30 20:13:00 - [640] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: byte modal wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: I'm curious... for those who are worried about Legion losing its 'EVE" feel. Did you prefer Chromosome's skill tree to Uprisings? As an EVE player, I could relate to the original skill tree easier than some---nothing backing that up except talk around the forums at the time. That's not to say that I found it efficient, pleasing, or technically easy to understand, just that I could relate to it without much effort. It was pretty bad though knowing its purpose and how little there was to help non-EVE players relate. I mean in design. Transition to the later node-based graphic skill tree was awkward. At first glance I didn't want to bother with it because I already understood the original. Now though, the later is all that I use. I do want to point out though that the core concept is the same, only the representation of that concept has changed. I think your specific question and the conversations that may branch from it could cover many subtle shifts, but at the core, I think EVE players are arguing to keep the concept within the EVE realm of thought, just have better representation of how that translates in a FSP mindset---not knocking one or the other. It FEELS (again, without much backing that up either except talk around the forums) that the concept is shifting a bit too far. Here's a Mario universe game but.. without mushrooms. Kinda. lol? I think I may be trying to answer another post by burying it into my reply here. If I missed your point, sorry! I was just curious. I feel that it is a somewhat analogous case though. In chromosome we had secondary skill requirements a la EVE and in Uprising it became completely linear. In terms of the 'EVE' feel, the chromosome skill tree should generally be preferred, as it was essentially EVEs skill tree adapted to ground based combat as well as they could. They then went to completely dumb down the skill tree. Instead of using the names like in EVE, say 'Shield Management' for example, they renamed everything to its module name. So it became 'Dropsuit Shields' and 'Shield Extension', 'Shield Recharging' etc etc. It became completely linear, and not very 'eve-like' at all. I really never saw that much in terms of "linearized the skill tree ruined uprising" posts. You know? If the Chromosome to Uprising skill rework wasn't a complete crisis and breakdown of the entire structure of the game, maybe, just maybe, the Legion skill tree won't be either? I think you need to take a look at the skill names in EVE, as a lot of them says exactly what the skill does. Especially the drone tree. Also, unlocking things in Dust is basically the same as in EVE. skill requirements are a little different, but otherwise it's the same layout. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-

ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition 2992	Posted - 2014.05.30 21:13:00 - [641] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: I think you need to take a look at the skill names in EVE, as a lot of them says exactly what the skill does. Especially the drone tree. Also, unlocking things in Dust is basically the same as in EVE. skill requirements are a little different, but otherwise it's the same layout. Yeah, I play EVE now. While the description for most things does a decent job in explaining what they do, I would not say the EVE skill tree is completely obvious. Just some minor examples... Its not obvious that 'damage' armor compensation affects the energized adaptive nano membrane. its not necessarily difficult to find out, but the skill tree doesn't link those two together in any way, I had to find that information out externally. Same for 'damage' shield compensation... nothing tells me that doesn't work for shield hardeners... in fact I hadn't even heard of passive shield resistance modules until I had to look up online what that skill does. Things like... Capacitor Emission Systems... I still don't know if that works for laser weapons or not. I'm assuming it doesn't but the description says 'Energy Emission Weapons'... I have no idea what is... is it neuts? vampire mods? The ui tells me nothing so i'll have to look it up later. 'Racial' Sensor Compensation? I still don't know what that does and how its different from Signature Analysis. Things like Shield Operation... "...including the use of shield boosters and other basic shield modules" - what is a "basic shield module" for $100 please Alex. These things aren't impossible to figure out by any means but the game gives me nothing in terms of what these do, I must look on a forum or occasionally on battleclinic comments to find out what some of these skills actually do. At 8 weeks played (so not that long) I'm definitely still confused about what some of these core skills actually do... and if I should be prioritizing these over something else. Looking up these skills online is something I am willing to do personally, but its these kinds of things that could scare away potential players of Legion.
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A 515	Posted - 2014.05.30 21:20:00 - [642] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: I think you need to take a look at the skill names in EVE, as a lot of them says exactly what the skill does. Especially the drone tree. Also, unlocking things in Dust is basically the same as in EVE. skill requirements are a little different, but otherwise it's the same layout. Yeah, I play EVE now. While the description for most things does a decent job in explaining what they do, I would not say the EVE skill tree is completely obvious. Just some minor examples... Its not obvious that 'damage' armor compensation affects the energized adaptive nano membrane. its not necessarily difficult to find out, but the skill tree doesn't link those two together in any way, I had to find that information out externally. Same for 'damage' shield compensation... nothing tells me that doesn't work for shield hardeners... in fact I hadn't even heard of passive shield resistance modules until I had to look up online what that skill does. Things like... Capacitor Emission Systems... I still don't know if that works for laser weapons or not. I'm assuming it doesn't but the description says 'Energy Emission Weapons'... I have no idea what is... is it neuts? vampire mods? The ui tells me nothing so i'll have to look it up later. 'Racial' Sensor Compensation? I still don't know what that does and how its different from Signature Analysis. Things like Shield Operation... "...including the use of shield boosters and other basic shield modules" - what is a "basic shield module" for $100 please Alex. These things aren't impossible to figure out by any means but the game gives me nothing in terms of what these do, I must look on a forum or occasionally on battleclinic comments to find out what some of these skills actually do. At 8 weeks played (so not that long) I'm definitely still confused about what some of these core skills actually do... and if I should be prioritizing these over something else. Looking up these skills online is something I am willing to do personally, but its these kinds of things that could scare away potential players of Legion. Good Guides or Good Friends Even in EVE they need better NPE, no doubt, but while in EVE they improved a loooooooooooooooooooooooot, in Dust it appears that basic things that could be transported weren-¦t even known.
byte modal 99	Posted - 2014.05.30 21:27:00 - [643] - Quote ^ No, I think that's a fair point (zdub). Honest. Trimming the fat isn't bad. But I do think that relationships were simply never made between skills and their use. Or at least those relationships were never made clear within the interface. Unless a merc had prior EVE knowledge of going to the prereq tabs to see what required what to gain access, that player would be lost I imagine. Personally, I just don't think it was thought out to begin with. The devs understood it, they were programing it. But understanding of a thing doesn't inherently mean one can teach it. I went with the lesser of two evils and I'm fine with it. Like I noted in a post a few pages back, we can debate day and night over this but until we all can see an actual roadmap and framework, we're all just speculating. Still though, good point. Irony: Post #35
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition 2992	Posted - 2014.05.30 21:33:00 - [644] - Quote byte modal wrote: ^ No, I think that's a fair point (zdub). Honest. Trimming the fat isn't bad. But I do think that relationships were simply never made between skills and their use. Or at least those relationships were never made clear within the interface. Unless a merc had prior EVE knowledge of going to the prereq tabs to see what required what to gain access, that player would be lost I imagine. Personally, I just don't think it was thought out to begin with. The devs understood it, they were programing it. But understanding of a thing doesn't inherently mean one can teach it. I went with the lesser of two evils and I'm fine with it. Like I noted in a post a few pages back, we can debate day and night over this but until we all can see an actual roadmap and framework, we're all just speculating. Still though, good point. Yeah, I guess my point (this reply is to Natu Nobilis' post as well) is that their entire goal for Legion is to design a skill system that does not require a third party to explain it. We should keep that in mind as we move forward, get your girlfriend, wife, partner, friend who's never played, etc to take a look at the skill tree and see if its intuitive. Most importantly, if you have a friend that has played COD and never touched EVE... see if the proposed trees and even Z's tree when he starts to show it is intuitive and if they understand all of it completely. See what looks overwhelming and what doesn't etc etc. 100% agree that we can't really say anything substantial until we have a prototype in front of us. I guess my point at its core is... I can work with most anything, simple or complex or whatever. So if the tree has to be redesigned to be a little more restrictive so that its intuitive and obvious on its own, without a third party at all, then I am fine with that.
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A 515	Posted - 2014.05.30 21:55:00 - [645] - Quote Everyone wants a more friendly way of introducing the world ofr new players. Back in 2007 i had the privilege of having a friend showing me the basics, and then finding a corporation that was all for training and doing stuff together. I learned a lot from them, i-¦ve made a shiton of mistakes, i went to a mission in low-sec and had my Raven Blown up by pirates (thanks for the lesson guys and girls!), i learned what i had to learn from that group and decided to create my own group, changed to fighting style and most of all, i trained new people. I trained people because i heard from older players that newbies would be noobs forever, that they couldn-¦t do ****, and i took it personally, because i didn-¦t know how to play once, they didnt also, and just because they had a lot of years they could talk like this? I managed to assemble a big Brazilian group, we had a lot of fun, i burned out, had RL things blah blah blah (Bittervet syndrome) but what i consider my biggest accomplishment was the possibility of training new, lost, ignorant people and get them on their feet on whatever activity they chose to do, even the carebear ones. A good NPE is fundamental, no one is denying that. have you checked the rest of the topic proposals? There are many many ways of making things more chewable without reducing the ammount my mouth can bite. It-¦s not about trying to get people away from the game because they-¦re not "smart enough", it-¦s about inviting people to the game BECAUSE it challenges and makes people think about their chouces, actions, and it-¦s consequences. Give the player tools and they-¦ll do amazing things. Minecraft being a perfect example. If the purpose of the game is to dumb down a little bit to appeal the masses, they-¦ll neither have the masses nor the challenge.
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition 2993	Posted - 2014.05.30 22:03:00 - [646] - Quote Natu Nobilis wrote: Give the player tools and they-¦ll do amazing things. Minecraft being a perfect example. If the purpose of the game is to dumb down a little bit to appeal the masses, they-¦ll neither have the masses nor the challenge. A complex skill tree doesn't introduce depth into the game though. There are other, far more substantial ways of introduce sandbox elements and giving tools for the players to make their own content. Do you truly believe that EVE's skill system is the core to the experience you built for yourself? Do you think those pirates wouldn't have blown up your Raven if EVE had a more intuitive skill system? Kinda see where I'm going here? Its the sandbox mechanics that make EVE, not its skill system.
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2483	Posted - 2014.05.30 22:18:00 - [647] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: I think you need to take a look at the skill names in EVE, as a lot of them says exactly what the skill does. Especially the drone tree. Also, unlocking things in Dust is basically the same as in EVE. skill requirements are a little different, but otherwise it's the same layout. Yeah, I play EVE now. While the description for most things does a decent job in explaining what they do, I would not say the EVE skill tree is completely obvious. Just some minor examples... Its not obvious that 'damage' armor compensation affects the energized adaptive nano membrane. its not necessarily difficult to find out, but the skill tree doesn't link those two together in any way, I had to find that information out externally. Same for 'damage' shield compensation... nothing tells me that doesn't work for shield hardeners... in fact I hadn't even heard of passive shield resistance modules until I had to look up online what that skill does. Things like... Capacitor Emission Systems... I still don't know if that works for laser weapons or not. I'm assuming it doesn't but the description says 'Energy Emission Weapons'... I have no idea what is... is it neuts? vampire mods? The ui tells me nothing so i'll have to look it up later. 'Racial' Sensor Compensation? I still don't know what that does and how its different from Signature Analysis. Things like Shield Operation... "...including the use of shield boosters and other basic shield modules" - what is a "basic shield module" for $100 please Alex. These things aren't impossible to figure out by any means but the game gives me nothing in terms of what these do, I must look on a forum or occasionally on battleclinic comments to find out what some of these skills actually do. At 8 weeks played (so not that long) I'm definitely still confused about what some of these core skills actually do... and if I should be prioritizing these over something else. Looking up these skills online is something I am willing to do personally, but its these kinds of things that could scare away potential players of Legion. Those tings sadly haven't been changed. Well, at least they are trying. I mean, the drone tree just got adjusted. I get what you are saying don't get me wrong, they need to explain things better. But what I'm saying is don't limit me doing so. Half assing it is never good after all click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2483	Posted - 2014.05.30 22:23:00 - [648] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Natu Nobilis wrote: Give the player tools and they-¦ll do amazing things. Minecraft being a perfect example. If the purpose of the game is to dumb down a little bit to appeal the masses, they-¦ll neither have the masses nor the challenge. A complex skill tree doesn't introduce depth into the game though. There are other, far more substantial ways of introduce sandbox elements and giving tools for the players to make their own content. Do you truly believe that EVE's skill system is the core to the experience you built for yourself? Do you think those pirates wouldn't have blown up your Raven if EVE had a more intuitive skill system? Kinda see where I'm going here? Its the sandbox mechanics that make EVE, not its skill system. It's the openness of the skill system that makes it easier to do the sandbox things though. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A 515	Posted - 2014.05.30 22:28:00 - [649] - Quote There are several proposals of a better way of introducing the skill system for players, this one i like the most. You don-¦t think this would be a good compromise between new and old players alike? What is the difference between Several Lvl 5 Skills with different bonus (like in EVE) that an advanced player can choose as he pleases and a "Role" automated progression that hides the tree and fills it automatically as the new player progresses ? One example: Have you heard of the Battle Badger? The Badger is a transport ship, not remotely involved in combat (usually). But, with the right skills, and the right intentions, you can transform a ship that was "meant" for transport, into a killing machine! If i had the "Roles" system proposed for Legion, i would probably gain skills that would give bonuses to Volume Transported, Warping Speed, and several other skills that make sense for transport. But i-¦m an advanced player, i don-¦t want to use the badger for transport, i want ot use it for combat. I-¦ll train combat skills, resistance skills, the transport ship skill, and i-¦ll head for combat with it. Is this the most "effective" way of fighting? Hell no ! But the fun meter EXPLODES when i fight like this! "Why would you do that?" some may ask. "Why the hell not?" would be the answer. I have the ISK, i have the skills, and i want to do it. I-¦m not crystalized in a "Role", i have skils that give bonus to certain things, and after my own calculations, i want to try differnt things. I can do this with a Hulk (Minning Ship), with an Orca (Minnin/Transport), damn, i can do several crazy configurations just because i can! And this is entwined with the skill progression. The way things look like in Z progression, i don-¦t think i-¦ll be able to do crazy things like this. And to be stuck in a role where skill bonus is not a differential, TF2 is a lot of fun.
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition 2993	Posted - 2014.05.30 22:30:00 - [650] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: Natu Nobilis wrote: Give the player tools and they-¦ll do amazing things. Minecraft being a perfect example. If the purpose of the game is to dumb down a little bit to appeal the masses, they-¦ll neither have the masses nor the challenge. A complex skill tree doesn't introduce depth into the game though. There are other, far more substantial ways of introduce sandbox elements and giving tools for the players to make their own content. Do you truly believe that EVE's skill system is the core to the experience you built for yourself? Do you think those pirates wouldn't have blown up your Raven if EVE had a more intuitive skill system? Kinda see where I'm going here? Its the sandbox mechanics that make EVE, not its skill system. It's the openness of the skill system that makes it easier to do the sandbox things though. I won't disagree with that. An overly restrictive skill tree will push more people away than it will bring in. As Z releases information that will be the primary focus of my feedback I think. It needs to be accessible in more ways than one... intuitively obvious (okay good for NPE) without massive skill sinks (good for post NPE). But that is completely possible with what he is proposing (the role based system). It appears that this role based system is borrowing heavily from Valkyrie as well as they just recently moved from a class to a role based system. Having some skill sinks isn't a crisis either though. Eve has plenty of skills sinks as well. To say the assault rail rifle requires an assault dropsuit isn't really that much different than Mining Barges requiring Industry 5 and Astrogeology 3 on top of Mining Frigate 3 is it? Natu Nobilis wrote: And this is entwined with the skill progression. The way things look like in Z progression, i don-¦t think i-¦ll be able to do crazy things like this. And to be stuck in a role where skill bonus is not a differential, TF2 is a lot of fun. Yeah I can see where you're coming from and I 100% agree with you. Although we won't know until he's started releasing information how flexible everything will be. Although he's already stated that you can equip anything you unlock on anything you unlock. So putting a sniper rifle on a sentinel and things like that is still possible. I really don't know if there is a good Dust equivalent to a battle badger lol.

Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A 515	Posted - 2014.05.30 22:40:00 - [651] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Having some skill sinks isn't a crisis either though. Eve has plenty of skills sinks as well. To say the assault rail rifle requires an assault dropsuit isn't really that much different than Mining Barges requiring Industry 5 and Astrogeology 3 on top of Mining Frigate 3 is it? But they all have bonus for somethng in the game. Industry: Allows basic operation of factories. 4% reduction in manufacturing time per skill level. Astrogeology Skill at analyzing the content of celestial objects with the intent of mining them. 5% bonus to mining turret yield per skill level. Mining Barge Skill at operating ORE Mining Barges. Can not be trained on Trial Accounts. (Buth when you go to the ships it enables, they all ahve bonus depending on the skill level of the Minnin Barge skill [Covetor: Able to equip Strip Miner and Ice Harvester turrets. 3% better yield for Strip Miners per level]) Unlike the stupid 1-3-5 some no bonus skills of Dust
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A 515	Posted - 2014.05.30 22:44:00 - [652] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: I really don't know if there is a good Dust equivalent to a battle badger lol. Killing Protosuits that didnt invest in good core skills while using Militia ones with good skills
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition 2993	Posted - 2014.05.30 22:50:00 - [653] - Quote Natu Nobilis wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: Having some skill sinks isn't a crisis either though. Eve has plenty of skills sinks as well. To say the assault rail rifle requires an assault dropsuit isn't really that much different than Mining Barges requiring Industry 5 and Astrogeology 3 on top of Mining Frigate 3 is it? But they all have bonus for somethng in the game. Industry: Allows basic operation of factories. 4% reduction in manufacturing time per skill level. Astrogeology Skill at analyzing the content of celestial objects with the intent of mining them. 5% bonus to mining turret yield per skill level. Mining Barge Skill at operating ORE Mining Barges. Can not be trained on Trial Accounts. (Buth when you go to the ships it enables, they all ahve bonus depending on the skill level of the Minnin Barge skill [Covetor: Able to equip Strip Miner and Ice Harvester turrets. 3% better yield for Strip Miners per level]) Unlike the stupid 1-3-5 some no bonus skills of Dust Yeah, the lack of passive bonuses on skills in Dust really hurts the game. But Industry doesn't help the Mining Barge at all.. right? So like... having to go Assault Dropsuit into Assault Rail Rifle to then put that Assault Rail Rifle on your Logistics suit. 2/3 of those skills will directly affect your current suit you are wearing - Logi suit with an ARR while one does not. That Mining Barge needs: Industry 5 Astrogeology 3 Mining Frigate 3 Mining Barge 1 Of the above, only two of those four skills (Astrogeo and Min Barge) actually affect the ship you are currently running (Mining Barge with Strip Miners). So functionally... its not really all that different. Some skills affect what you are currently running and some do not. It wouldn't any different in Z's skill system either. Although he has already said that he is making sure EVERY single node does something and has sorta/unofficially confirmed passive bonus nodes as well. but... don't get me wrong. I could easily make a 5 level skill tree work, I am very familiar after 1 year in Dust and 8 weeks in EVE with the 5 level system. These changes aren't for people like me though, they are for people like my 18 year old stepbrother who used to play COD religiously and was confused and generally became disinterested in Dust after about 45 minutes. He's a solid FPS player and I wish I could have played more Dust with him when it was in its prime, he just couldn't/didn't want to figure out the skill tree.
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A 515	Posted - 2014.05.30 23:13:00 - [654] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Yeah, the lack of passive bonuses on skills in Dust really hurts the game. But Industry doesn't help the Mining Barge at all.. right? So like... having to go Assault Dropsuit into Assault Rail Rifle to then put that Assault Rail Rifle on your Logistics suit. 2/3 of those skills will directly affect your current suit you are wearing - Logi suit with an ARR while one does not. That Mining Barge needs: Industry 5 Astrogeology 3 Mining Frigate 3 Mining Barge 1 Of the above, only two of those four skills (Astrogeo and Min Barge) actually affect the ship you are currently running (Mining Barge with Strip Miners). So functionally... its not really all that different. Some skills affect what you are currently running and some do not. It wouldn't any different in Z's skill system either. Although he has already said that he is making sure EVERY single node does something and has sorta/unofficially confirmed passive bonus nodes as well. but... don't get me wrong. I could easily make a 5 level skill tree work, I am very familiar after 1 year in Dust and 8 weeks in EVE with the 5 level system. These changes aren't for people like me though, they are for people like my 18 year old stepbrother who used to play COD religiously and was confused and generally became disinterested in Dust after about 45 minutes. He's a solid FPS player and I wish I could have played more Dust with him when it was in its prime, he just couldn't/didn't want to figure out the skill tree. Wait wait. It-¦s not just an SP sink, there-¦s a progression down the road. You first use Frigates Then you can fly a Minning Barge Then you can fly an Exhumer (T2) Yes, the frigate bonus doesn-¦t apply directly to the Exhumer, but in order to use an Exhumer, you first used a frigate. It-¦s not a Sink, it-¦s a progression. (Like Frigate - Cruiser - Battleship, i don-¦t just jump in a BS) The role system seems to "lock" certain skills down a path and you have to travel many many paths to unlock items that would be faster if you did it manually. (Like using Laser with Gallente suits instead of hybrid weapons) The link i posted where a "role" would follow an "automated progression of skill" managed by the game (and hidden from the player), we get the "Roles" for new people, and we still have the skills for advanced players. Don-¦t you think it-¦s a good compromise?
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition 2994	Posted - 2014.05.30 23:42:00 - [655] - Quote Natu Nobilis wrote: Wait wait. It-¦s not just an SP sink, there-¦s a progression down the road. You first use Frigates Then you can fly a Minning Barge Then you can fly an Exhumer (T2) Yes, the frigate bonus doesn-¦t apply directly to the Exhumer, but in order to use an Exhumer, you first used a frigate. It-¦s not a Sink, it-¦s a progression. (Like Frigate - Cruiser - Battleship, i don-¦t just jump in a BS) The role system seems to "lock" certain skills down a path and you have to travel many many paths to unlock items that would be faster if you did it manually. (Like using Laser with Gallente suits instead of hybrid weapons) The link i posted where a "role" would follow an "automated progression of skill" managed by the game (and hidden from the player), we get the "Roles" for new people, and we still have the skills for advanced players. Don-¦t you think it-¦s a good compromise? Well... Industry never makes you a better miner... its purely a skill sink :p (and just an example really, not worth debating). In terms of dual a system... perhaps. I'm not for or against either system necessarily. A way to mix both would be great too if implemented correctly. Although... there is one thing that CCP Z mentioned which might be a valid concern. Prior to the legion release a lot of posts started to crop up about how "im bored and there is nothing left to skill into" because they had their racial dropsuit of choice and a couple of weapons with maxed core skills. For people to be saying that 8-12 months into a games life might indicate a poorly designed skill tree. I understand the desire for freedom to skill into anything at any time, but it may be harmful for the long term health of the game as well. I'm not trying to argue against an open skill tree necessarily but that might be a valid concern as well? Even though its very unlike eve... I wouldn't mind seeing a skill tree that has more specific passive bonuses. In eve you have skills like Trajectory Analysis or Surgical Strike that affect all weapon turrets (some skills are sub captial only but you get my drift here) while in Dust we have weapons with more specific passive bonuses... like how each weapon has its own proficiency, ammo capacity, fitting optimization, etc skills. I would like to see this expanded to include equipment and dropsutis as well while reducing some of the absurd multipliers on those skills like the 'lol x6 are kidding me?' for fitting opt. The role based skill tree could support this quite well. You can unlock each item VERY quickly and move through the 'roots' of the skill tree with very low SP investment. You are then left with choices on which pieces of equipment, weapons, and dropsuits you wish to specialize in through passive SP investment. I feel that its a good compromise between each to understand for newbies while providing depth for veterans. In terms of passive bonuses... it would be quite simple to change the 1-5 system to something like.. Rail Rifle - Unlocks use of Rail Rifle. Rail Rifle Operation +5% damage to rail rifles Rail Rifle Proficiency + 5% damage Rail Rifle Mastery +5% damage with, of course, increasing SP requirements. Its functionally the exact same thing - but maybe its easier for someone new to understand? At least that seems to be CCP Z's thinking. Lots of good ideas on skill progression in this forum imo. I'm definitely in no way saying that any one of them is wrong or bad.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4295	Posted - 2014.05.30 23:50:00 - [656] - Quote When the skill tree changed from chromosome to uprising we were told it was simplified so that a lot of the useless skills that you didn't want got shaved off so you could reach your goal in a more immediate fashion. But Z's progression is the exact opposite of that, while he claims it is an attempt to be more simple. If I wanted to be a heavy with an assault rifle who runs damps (because let's pretend its viable for whatever reason) I have to spec into three different suits of varying degrees, potentially. That's supposed to be more simple? Bull. You don't think that's maybe, I dunno... dumb as hell? Z has said he thinks people can reach their goal too quickly. That's nonsense as far as I'm concerned and this is just an attempt to get even more money out of people for faster skill access. As if it wasn't already bad enough.
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2483	Posted - 2014.05.31 00:04:00 - [657] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: Natu Nobilis wrote: Give the player tools and they-¦ll do amazing things. Minecraft being a perfect example. If the purpose of the game is to dumb down a little bit to appeal the masses, they-¦ll neither have the masses nor the challenge. A complex skill tree doesn't introduce depth into the game though. There are other, far more substantial ways of introduce sandbox elements and giving tools for the players to make their own content. Do you truly believe that EVE's skill system is the core to the experience you built for yourself? Do you think those pirates wouldn't have blown up your Raven if EVE had a more intuitive skill system? Kinda see where I'm going here? Its the sandbox mechanics that make EVE, not its skill system. It's the openness of the skill system that makes it easier to do the sandbox things though. I won't disagree with that. An overly restrictive skill tree will push more people away than it will bring in. As Z releases information that will be the primary focus of my feedback I think. It needs to be accessible in more ways than one... intuitively obvious (okay good for NPE) without massive skill sinks (good for post NPE). But that is completely possible with what he is proposing (the role based system). It appears that this role based system is borrowing heavily from Valkyrie as well as they just recently moved from a class to a role based system. Having some skill sinks isn't a crisis either though. Eve has plenty of skills sinks as well. To say the assault rail rifle requires an assault dropsuit isn't really that much different than Mining Barges requiring Industry 5 and Astrogeology 3 on top of Mining Frigate 3 is it? See, here's the thing with that: it's not the same thing. It would rather be like requiring you to get a Eagle or a Deimos to get T II medium rails, but you can still use it on any ship that can fit them. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition 2995	Posted - 2014.05.31 04:57:00 - [658] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: Natu Nobilis wrote: Give the player tools and they-¦ll do amazing things. Minecraft being a perfect example. If the purpose of the game is to dumb down a little bit to appeal the masses, they-¦ll neither have the masses nor the challenge. A complex skill tree doesn't introduce depth into the game though. There are other, far more substantial ways of introduce sandbox elements and giving tools for the players to make their own content. Do you truly believe that EVE's skill system is the core to the experience you built for yourself? Do you think those pirates wouldn't have blown up your Raven if EVE had a more intuitive skill system? Kinda see where I'm going here? Its the sandbox mechanics that make EVE, not its skill system. It's the openness of the skill system that makes it easier to do the sandbox things though. I won't disagree with that. An overly restrictive skill tree will push more people away than it will bring in. As Z releases information that will be the primary focus of my feedback I think. It needs to be accessible in more ways than one... intuitively obvious (okay good for NPE) without massive skill sinks (good for post NPE). But that is completely possible with what he is proposing (the role based system). It appears that this role based system is borrowing heavily from Valkyrie as well as they just recently moved from a class to a role based system. Having some skill sinks isn't a crisis either though. Eve has plenty of skills sinks as well. To say the assault rail rifle requires an assault dropsuit isn't really that much different than Mining Barges requiring Industry 5 and Astrogeology 3 on top of Mining Frigate 3 is it? See, here's the thing with that: it's not the same thing. It would rather be like requiring you to get a Eagle or a Deimos to get T II medium rails, but you can still use it on any ship that can fit them. So requiring a Heavy Assault Cruiser before tech II medium rails would be kind of silly I agree. What if you needed Caldari Cruiser III to use tech II rails though? If it would help guide newbies to the fact that the Moa uses medium rails? While it might be obvious to you that you should pair rails on the Moa, it may not be obvious to others and making that connection, at a relatively insignificant cost in training time, might be worth it? I dunno... just a thought. Playing a little devil's advocate I guess. Making the skill sinks relatively light wouldn't be catastrophic. But locking all weapons behind the racial specialization set of the skill tree would be silly I agree. To require caldari assault dropsuit (at virtually the end of the assault role tree) before being able to use any rail rifle would be bad design imo. I would 100% fight against a change like that.
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1372	Posted - 2014.05.31 08:39:00 - [659] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: But that is completely possible with what he is proposing (the role based system). It appears that this role based system is borrowing heavily from Valkyrie as well as they just recently moved from a class to a role based system.. Actually, it was the other way round. Valkyrie are copying Legion's system. And that isn't the first or last thing that the other two New Eden games are borrowing from Legion.... CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1673	Posted - 2014.05.31 10:24:00 - [660] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: But that is completely possible with what he is proposing (the role based system). It appears that this role based system is borrowing heavily from Valkyrie as well as they just recently moved from a class to a role based system.. Actually, it was the other way round. Valkyrie are copying Legion's system. And that isn't the first or last thing that the other two New Eden games are borrowing from Legion.... That winky face is incredibly out of place. If what you say is true, shouldn't you be using this ? I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.

The-Errorist Sver true blood 725	Posted - 2014.05.31 10:32:00 - [661] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: Kevall Longstride wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: But that is completely possible with what he is proposing (the role based system). It appears that this role based system is borrowing heavily from Valkyrie as well as they just recently moved from a class to a role based system.. Actually, it was the other way round. Valkyrie are copying Legion's system. And that isn't the first or last thing that the other two New Eden games are borrowing from Legion.... That winky face is incredibly out of place. If what you say is true, shouldn't you be using this ? It seems appropriate to me; if he was against things copying from stuff from Legion (which is not the case) and not for it, he would probably use the sad face instead. MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. Scanned scouts aren't dead scouts, they're +600HP scouts.
Samael Artico Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 128	Posted - 2014.05.31 10:35:00 - [662] - Quote CCP Z, there's something I need to tell you about your ideas...
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A Dark Taboo 517	Posted - 2014.05.31 12:34:00 - [663] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Although... there is one thing that CCP Z mentioned which might be a valid concern. Prior to the legion release a lot of posts started to crop up about how "im bored and there is nothing left to skill into" because they had their racial dropsuit of choice and a couple of weapons with maxed core skills. For people to be saying that 8-12 months into a games life might indicate a poorly designed skill tree. If your game objective was to lvl up, then yes, it-¦s a silly mechanism. Just like WoW where you lvl up quickly, you waste some time playing % games on Raids, get yout phat loot that is never gone, and is done with the game. If your game objective was to have an INTERESTING game that was meant to be played, to do things, to explore, to conquer, to fight permanently with other EVE forces, to integrate the warfare and make a total warfare scenario with a dynamic economy based on resoures from space and from planets, where the 2 games would open up a whole new concept of playing and this fantastic features would bring the masses interested in FPS - Strategy - Managment - Casual play, then the skilltree wouldn-¦t make the slightest difference, because at the beggining or at the end of my skills, i would have a whole universe to conquer in a balance that would forever make me adapt to new players, new strategies and new tactics.. Again, half-implemented game is the reason it sucked, not the skill tree. Boring game because it-¦s boring. How much time do they think i would waste capturing point A B C on the same maps over and over again? However, on the Caldari Prime event, i skipped my class to play both in space (stuck on gate trying to join) and i played on the ground with all my might and coordination to get as many victories for the Caldari as i could, including instructing people that didn-¦t know any better and dealing with morons. Because that-¦s the time of game that i wanted to play. I knew the game i wanted would be 3-4 years away, i just didn-¦t expect that instead of finishing implementing what was lacking, they would take another direction. ZDub 303 wrote: So requiring a Heavy Assault Cruiser before tech II medium rails would be kind of silly I agree. What if you needed Caldari Cruiser III to use tech II rails though? If it would help guide newbies to the fact that the Moa uses medium rails? While it might be obvious to you that you should pair rails on the Moa, it may not be obvious to others and making that connection, at a relatively insignificant cost in training time, might be worth it? I dunno... just a thought. Playing a little devil's advocate I guess. Making the skill sinks relatively light wouldn't be catastrophic. But locking all weapons behind the racial specialization set of the skill tree would be silly I agree. To require caldari assault dropsuit (at virtually the end of the assault role tree) before being able to use any rail rifle would be bad design imo. I would 100% fight against a change like that. If skill sink is needed, simply change the X3 for a x5 or x8 multiplyer and so on. It takes as much time as design wants, and we still can have every skill with a passive bonus instead of the stupid system of 1-3-5 unlocks things and give no bonus. On the proposed system the Game would train your skils (Including matching Assault Suits and Assault Rifles, or "Caldari Cruiser to Railgun"), so the objective of taking the player by the hand is still accomplished without ANY loss of depth for the advanced players that coould still manage their prefere skills in the order that they wanted. Locking things down the path it-¦s stupid, it goes against New Eden, and it-¦s a lazy work, if not an offense to a certain niche of players that understand completely that a NPE is important and offered SEVERAL options of implementation, but don-¦t want to be restricted because of them.
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2490	Posted - 2014.05.31 19:29:00 - [664] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: So requiring a Heavy Assault Cruiser before tech II medium rails would be kind of silly I agree. What if you needed Caldari Cruiser III to use tech II rails though? If it would help guide newbies to the fact that the Moa uses medium rails? While it might be obvious to you that you should pair rails on the Moa, it may not be obvious to others and making that connection, at a relatively insignificant cost in training time, might be worth it? I dunno... just a thought. Playing a little devil's advocate I guess. Making the skill sinks relatively light wouldn't be catastrophic. But locking all weapons behind the racial specialization set of the skill tree would be silly I agree. To require caldari assault dropsuit (at virtually the end of the assault role tree) before being able to use any rail rifle would be bad design imo. I would 100% fight against a change like that. Seeing as though they want you to go down a T II suit tree before getting a T II gun, it is like I just said. Look, I get Z's reasoning behind it, and why you like it. But here's the thing: If at any point I'm forced to go down a tree just to get something that I want, and most of the tree has nothing to do with what I want, then Godin is not happy. My point is that if they took the time to actually explain the damn tree in the first place, then there would be no problem. Hell, simply having a class (because it's called the academy for a reason) teaching what all the trees do (ex. in the dropsuit command, you can unlock dropsuits explains frame sizes. Under the weaponry tree, you can unlock weapons explains weapon sizes etc.), then maybe people might get it? click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A Dark Taboo 518	Posted - 2014.05.31 20:00:00 - [665] - Quote Quick short term money is at younglings with a short attention span. EA knows how to make money out of them and CCP hired a lot of EA folks for this very purpose. 2-3 years of a good hit should be enought to balance the financial situation of the company, after this lets ser what happens.
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition 2998	Posted - 2014.05.31 23:07:00 - [666] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: So requiring a Heavy Assault Cruiser before tech II medium rails would be kind of silly I agree. What if you needed Caldari Cruiser III to use tech II rails though? If it would help guide newbies to the fact that the Moa uses medium rails? While it might be obvious to you that you should pair rails on the Moa, it may not be obvious to others and making that connection, at a relatively insignificant cost in training time, might be worth it? I dunno... just a thought. Playing a little devil's advocate I guess. Making the skill sinks relatively light wouldn't be catastrophic. But locking all weapons behind the racial specialization set of the skill tree would be silly I agree. To require caldari assault dropsuit (at virtually the end of the assault role tree) before being able to use any rail rifle would be bad design imo. I would 100% fight against a change like that. Seeing as though they want you to go down a T II suit tree before getting a T II gun, it is like I just said. Look, I get Z's reasoning behind it, and why you like it. But here's the thing: If at any point I'm forced to go down a tree just to get something that I want, and most of the tree has nothing to do with what I want, then Godin is not happy. My point is that if they took the time to actually explain the damn tree in the first place, then there would be no problem. Hell, simply having a class (because it's called the academy for a reason) teaching what all the trees do (ex. in the dropsuit command, you can unlock dropsuits explains frame sizes. Under the weaponry tree, you can unlock weapons explains weapon sizes etc.), then maybe people might get it? All I was trying to say is that if the prereqs arent terrible then I could deal with. I could make most any skill tree work. I personally would prefer a skill tree similar to Dust's myself. I think having a tree for dropsuits, weapons, vehicles, etc makes more sense to me but I'm not necessarily against Z's skill tree either. To be quite honest saying "having to go into a tree to get x with useless items and skills makes me unhappy" just sounds a little childish. I go back to my mining barge example or even jump drive operation. I don't want Warp Drive Operation 5, Navigation 5, AND Science 5 to get into Jump Drive Operation... Science doesn't do ANYTHING with how I fly my ship... this is complete BS that the skill system is making me get all three of these abilities to 5... I should just be able to skill directly into Jump Drive Operation... EVE's skill tree is complete BS! See how silly that sounds? You can't say that one tree has useless prereqs and the other has 'natural progression'. They are the same thing, you are just perceiving them differently. To be required to have a heavy suit before using an HMG... well I don't see why that is so bad... Its true that there are other ways to approach this problem as well. Copying Dust's skill tree and removing useless skills while adding passives to everything and creating a system that guides new players could work. It could also be expensive to make that system and may also be glossed over by new players just like the current tutorial is. There are pros and cons to everything though and always multiple answers to any problem. I'm not against any of the current proposals given by the community though, I think a lot of them are pretty good. I just don't think that Z's skill tree is a bad idea either.
The-Errorist Sver true blood 727	Posted - 2014.06.01 01:49:00 - [667] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: ... I really don't know if there is a good Dust equivalent to a battle badger lol. How about an ak.0 with Carthum Assault Scrambler Pistol Core Flaylock Pistol Flux Grenade Clock Field 2 Complex Myofibril Stimulants Complex Light damage modifier 2 Complex Profile Dampeners Complex Kinetic Catalyzer and a Complex Armor Repairer Himiko Kuronaga wrote: When the skill tree changed from chromosome to uprising we were told it was simplified so that a lot of the useless skills that you didn't want got shaved off so you could reach your goal in a more immediate fashion. But Z's progression is the exact opposite of that, while he claims it is an attempt to be more simple. If I wanted to be a heavy with an assault rifle who runs damps (because let's pretend its viable for whatever reason) I have to spec into three different suits of varying degrees, potentially. That's supposed to be more simple? Bull. You don't think that's maybe, I dunno... dumb as hell? Z has said he thinks people can reach their goal too quickly. That's nonsense as far as I'm concerned and this is just an attempt to get even more money out of people for faster skill access. As if it wasn't already bad enough. CCP Z said that you won't be able to buy skill boosters or items with lower skill requirements with AUR in Legion. MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. Scanned scouts aren't dead scouts, they're +600HP scouts.
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition 3000	Posted - 2014.06.01 02:03:00 - [668] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: ... I really don't know if there is a good Dust equivalent to a battle badger lol. How about an ak.0 with.... I don't think that really works... cause the a.k0 is still a combat focused suit. A badger is an industrial ship that was not designed for combat... everything in Dust is designed for combat.
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3327	Posted - 2014.06.01 02:19:00 - [669] - Quote My swarms don't feel designed for combat. T_T;; CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
The-Errorist Sver true blood 727	Posted - 2014.06.01 02:29:00 - [670] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: My swarms don't feel designed for combat. T_T;; Unfortunately, swarms are only useful on a Minmatar Commando that's using the prototype swarms. MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. Scanned scouts aren't dead scouts, they're +600HP scouts.

Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A Dark Taboo 524	Posted - 2014.06.02 12:22:00 - [671] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: A complex skill tree doesn't introduce depth into the game though. There are other, far more substantial ways of introduce sandbox elements and giving tools for the players to make their own content. Do you truly believe that EVE's skill system is the core to the experience you built for yourself? Do you think those pirates wouldn't have blown up your Raven if EVE had a more intuitive skill system? Kinda see where I'm going here? Its the sandbox mechanics that make EVE, not its skill system. Just read this today. I-¦m not saying it was the skill system that gave me the experience i described, but the skill system was part of the foundation of it. When i lost my Raven to pirates in low-sec, it wasn-¦t the modules i cared about, it was my shinny recently bought ship that i saved money for a long time in order to do so. One click to jump, the locking sound and several shots later, and it was gone. Gone I had freinds that taught me "Neve fly what you can-¦t afford to lose", so i had my Drake as a back-up went went back to missioning with it until i had money to buy another. Ships, matter. I have billions of isk today, i can buy the ships i want, and even tough i rationalize "It-¦s just pixels", from my Carrier to my Frigate, i still get the adrenaline rush when i-¦m in combat, and i still get pissed, even if for a moment, when i lose 1b or 1m isk when i gamble it in a fight. I use a frigate with T1 modules to get a rush, to test my habilites, to see how far i can go with it, to test it-¦s limits, even tough i can fly whatever the hell i want (and i do fly them also) With the currently proposed "Progression" system, Suits are permanent, that-¦s a layer of excitment and challenge that is removed. If i don-¦t connect to the impermanence of the core of my experience, what am i supposed to connect to? Mindless grinding of for scaps of "phat loot"? To get a purple module picture on my epic mount? To realize that my mortal coil has a finite time and that this time is valuable, so i better buy plexes to get said purple equip? What to do with it? What for? Show it around? What is there to conquer when everyone has their stuff secured? I know i may be a tiny % of a playstyle that i no way justifies economically the making of a game, that the majority of players will get confort in securing their achievments and never get them taken away by someone, that they-¦ll pay a lot of money to keep this sense of security, and at the end of the day that-¦s what makes a company run and do stuff. I don-¦t htink Z model will be a failure on a financial aspect. I know a lot of people who get phisically ill when they lose stuff in EVE to the point that they disappear for a week mourning for a minning ship blown up, even tough they have 45billion on their wallet. That-¦s the majority of the players, and they-¦re willing to pay a lot of money for that. It-¦s just... well. When there-¦s nothing to lose, there-¦s nothing to conquer, and when there-¦s nothing to conquer, it-¦s just a game that will get some attention and then... meh. A sandobox gives replay value. A game that i bought when it was released was X-Com (1993 not the recent one). It mixed managing funds and construction of your bases (plural, not that single crap of the recent one), the hiring of your staff (engineers, researchers and soldiers), the manufacture of your equipment (and selling it to Governments) and besides that you had the turn based combat in randomly generated scenarios. I still play this game. I-¦ve finished it in so many ways, that i play games without loading just so i can get my high from it-¦s challenge. It gives you a set of tools, you play it around, and play it forever. And sometimes i still have nightmares from the sound of the walking on metal that the aliens do inside their ships (A sound that i heard in Dust btw). So simple, and yet so.... awesome. No wonder it-¦s at the top list of "best game of all time" (even tough lists are stupid and you can make any list with any criteria tha tyou want) With proper tools, and something to lose (or to be taken away), games will triumph. The way the game direction seems to be heading.... i don-¦t know about the challenges involved. That-¦s what i mean when i talk about "New Eden" spirit. The experience you get from Sonic is not the same of the "Mario and Sonic at the Winter Games". Mega Man X is not the same experience as "Mega Men Legends". Can games be made using good IP and not be a cheap ripoff? Of course! Super Smash Brawl is awesome, even tough it-¦s a bunch of known characters fighting against each other. I see Valkyrie going this way and being good. We need a flying game like X-Wing vs Tie-Fighter or Wing Commander back, they were absolutely ******* awesome. I-¦ve been an orphan of this type of game for what, a decade now? No woder everyone is so excited, a game type brought coming back from exctincion AND with VR ! How can this go wrong? Completely different from an FPS market that-¦s over saturated, more consolidated, with plenty of (fun) options. Battles without meaning i have Team Fortress 2. Don-¦t even care about progression because it-¦s meaningless, there-¦s nothing to conquer, nothing to take away from someone, just fun matches until i go do other stuff. Progression is entwined with game Design, and game design is the soul of the game. You screw one up, it will impact the rest.
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 538	Posted - 2014.06.02 12:29:00 - [672] - Quote Sorry if I was being unconstructive with criticisms related to PS3 quitter survey results. I'll try not to be too critical in the future. Dust 514 has been something of an indulgence for me, combining the excitement of shooting others in the face (old headshot silent heartbeat was better) with obsessive SP grinding to fill out a classic RPG character sheet (Eve style preferred). I can't not cap out every week... I might even ask my little brother (skilowpaw) to cap out for me when I'm spending a week at a mountain resort (vacation)... I might want to brag a bit here because my little brother had no problems figuring out how to use the skill tree :D The only thing that would make the character sheet better is more skills and abilities, more fine tuning, more specialization, and more SP for all the things. I'm a long way from unlocking all of the suits, but I would rather be specializing as opposed to diversifying. Would it ruin the experience for new players and casuals if I spent a million SP to quick draw my sidearm 25% faster? So, on the other hand, yeah, the SP cap is odd ("bonus SP" and hard 1000SP per match cap when bonus SP is exhausted). I would probably play half as many rounds on average if I didn't have a specific SP target to reach. I probably wouldn't solo grind SP either, and as a result I would burn less AUR. My main problem with the daily cap was that I usually need a few warm-up rounds to really get into the action, and it was a real buzz kill to start having good 2000+ WP rounds and only get 1000SP. I had experimented with using alts to warm up, but there were many occasions where I didn't have time to cap on a particular day, so that was frustrating. The weekly cycle is better, but sometimes it feels too small, and other times if feels too big. I would rather not have caps in the new progression system. In the past I would play shorter and more intense fps matches (Halo/BF) and spend long hours late into the night with actual MMOs, with PvE grinding, player markets, and subscription fees. These are different kinds of games and experiences, and I appreciate that CCP is trying merge them into a single Sci-Fi MMO, and finally deliver on the original promise of Dust. There will be bullets. ACR+SMG [CEO of Terror]
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition 3002	Posted - 2014.06.02 13:17:00 - [673] - Quote Natu Nobilis wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: A complex skill tree doesn't introduce depth into the game though. There are other, far more substantial ways of introduce sandbox elements and giving tools for the players to make their own content. Do you truly believe that EVE's skill system is the core to the experience you built for yourself? Do you think those pirates wouldn't have blown up your Raven if EVE had a more intuitive skill system? Kinda see where I'm going here? Its the sandbox mechanics that make EVE, not its skill system. Just read this today. I-¦m not saying it was the skill system that gave me the experience i described, but the skill system was part of the foundation of it. When i lost my Raven to pirates in low-sec, it wasn-¦t the modules i cared about, it was my shinny recently bought ship that i saved money for a long time in order to do so. One click to jump, the locking sound and several shots later, and it was gone. Gone .... Progression is entwined with game Design, and game design is the soul of the game. You screw one up, it will impact the rest. While a good post on your first experiences in New Eden.. I don't see how the skill system does anything to relate to that. Do you mean you lost that Raven because you ****-fit it since you didn't understand the skill in Eve at the time? I'm failing to see how the structure of the skill system made that lost Raven more meaningful to you... Now with BPO suit... you understand that if you put 500k isk worth of rare modules on your BPO suit and then you die... you are out 500k isk worth of modules right? Just because the suit itself is a BPO doesn't mean everything on your character is. Also... Eve is a cool game, I'm really enjoying it myself, but it does NOT translate 1:1 into a first person shooter experience. The closest we can get is that we're all flying frigates pretty much. There is no translation of anything Cruiser+ in Eve (maybe marauder HAVs in chromosome were the closest to anything like a Cruiser imo) and I don't think there ever could/will be. In Eve its a lot easier to have very large ships with massive power differentials due to the 'navy simulator' kind of mechanics that dominate its combat. In an FPS its much more fast-paced low TTK style combat where you should expect anything you have to be relatively much more disposable than things are in Eve. We could possibly expand on the vehicle selection to get more analogues of the BC+ style ships in EVE, although I believe they would be generally very rare, much more than you would see those types of ships in EVE. I also haven't seen any posts wanting vehicle BPOs in game. I know I certainly don't want to see BPO vehicles myself.
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A Dark Taboo 526	Posted - 2014.06.02 14:51:00 - [674] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: While a good post on your first experiences in New Eden.. I don't see how the skill system does anything to relate to that. Do you mean you lost that Raven because you **-fit it since you didn't understand the skill in Eve at the time? I'm failing to see how the structure of the skill system made that lost Raven more meaningful to you... Now with BPO suit... you understand that if you put 500k isk worth of rare modules on your BPO suit and then you die... you are out 500k isk worth of modules right? Just because the suit itself is a BPO doesn't mean everything on your character is. Also... Eve is a cool game, I'm really enjoying it myself, but it does NOT translate 1:1 into a first person shooter experience. The closest we can get is that we're all flying frigates pretty much. There is no translation of anything Cruiser+ in Eve (maybe marauder HAVs in chromosome were the closest to anything like a Cruiser imo) and I don't think there ever could/will be. In Eve its a lot easier to have very large ships with massive power differentials due to the 'navy simulator' kind of mechanics that dominate its combat. In an FPS its much more fast-paced low TTK style combat where you should expect anything you have to be relatively much more disposable than things are in Eve. We could possibly expand on the vehicle selection to get more analogues of the BC+ style ships in EVE, although I believe they would be generally very rare, much more than you would see those types of ships in EVE. I also haven't seen any posts wanting vehicle BPOs in game. I know I certainly don't want to see BPO vehicles myself. The Skill tree system in EVE is not an obstacle to the aquisition of different ships. The skil progression system in Legion is specifically entwined with the aquisition of equipment and suits. Besides that, the suits are also infinite. I can-¦t talk about the progression, the gameplay, and the game design, without talking about the skill progression system in Legion, that-¦s the main point. The foundation of the game is the progression system! It-¦s not the progression that defines the gameplay, it-¦s the game design. But when the game design is attached to the progression, then the progression becomes an issue. I din-¦t **** up my fitting, i had a perfectly good missioning Raven that happened to go to low-sec and got blown up. The impact was that the SHIP that i trained for during months, that i spent a couple of weeks missioning to buy, was blown up and not replaced without more weeks of missioning to buy another one. If a suit is permanent, what-¦s the attachment to it? Zero. Specially if a Suit is so powerful, that a "Prototype Caldari Assault equiped with a Stick of Truth +1" can beat a "Just started Caldari Suit with a +50 Purple Staff of Anal Probing that i bought on the market with real money after someone sold it after spending 2 weeks gringing to have a % chance of dropping it" (Don-¦t know if that-¦s the case, but seems like a good business model unlike EVE where a good ship with poorly fitted equipment DIES to low-tech ships with good player and proper modules). A Lvl 80 player killing 200 Lvl 1 with a single hand and the stater sword is WoW, not "New Eden". Progression ends up defining the overall experience because it-¦s related to how your time is translated in power, and the power is measured in Suits (tied to roles, tied to progression) and equipment (tied to salvaging, hopefully tied to manufacturing from said salvage). We can-¦t talk about Legion and it-¦s overall gameplay experience without talking about progression in it-¦s current apparent form.
byte modal 103	Posted - 2014.06.02 14:55:00 - [675] - Quote Natu Nobilis wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: I really don't know if there is a good Dust equivalent to a battle badger lol. Killing Protosuits that didnt invest in good core skills while using Militia ones with good skills eh... lol. OK, this morning is off to a strange start. Skimming through here to see what I missed over the weekend and you got my attention. Totally misread you and thought you said "killing prostitutes..." carry on. carry on... Irony: Post #35
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A Dark Taboo 527	Posted - 2014.06.02 15:14:00 - [676] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Also... Eve is a cool game, I'm really enjoying it myself, but it does NOT translate 1:1 into a first person shooter experience. The closest we can get is that we're all flying frigates pretty much. There is no translation of anything Cruiser+ in Eve (maybe marauder HAVs in chromosome were the closest to anything like a Cruiser imo) and I don't think there ever could/will be. In Eve its a lot easier to have very large ships with massive power differentials due to the 'navy simulator' kind of mechanics that dominate its combat. In an FPS its much more fast-paced low TTK style combat where you should expect anything you have to be relatively much more disposable than things are in Eve. We could possibly expand on the vehicle selection to get more analogues of the BC+ style ships in EVE, although I believe they would be generally very rare, much more than you would see those types of ships in EVE. I also haven't seen any posts wanting vehicle BPOs in game. I know I certainly don't want to see BPO vehicles myself. Part 2 Vehicles? All we had was Murder Taxis (lots of fun) , Tanks and dropships. Not even all racial variants of the incomplete trees (Light - Medium - Heavy vehicles). I expected to use the MCC as a mobile transportation system with built in command center / clone bays / and a "Battlecruiser Operational" feeling to advance at the districts and go capturing Command Nodes with the soldiers dropping from it like crazy, until someone intervened with Jets, another MCC, or player build Null Cannons protecting the area (that would make a ground invsion necessary prior to aerial deployment) The absurdity of the SP required would be comparable to a Titan! Perhaps our conflict of visions is that i see Dust/Legion more as a RTS with FPS than an FPS per se. Shooting people in itself is meaningless. Salvaging equip to shoot people adds a degree of complexity. Salvaging stuff to use said stuff to build equipments adds another degree of complexity. Salvaging stuff to use said stuff to build equipments, that are sold on a market that is player driven, with difference of places to aquire said materials, making possible to fight for districts due to it-¦s specific natural resources and to secure it-¦s logistics of transportation, making it possible to deny certain items on the market due to speculation, attack of convoys and buying out, making the players decide if they want to build an industrial district heavyly defended to supply their group, to import equipment from other group, or to simply steal equipment from other people, making it so conneced that a battle in region A may decide the price of weapon on region C, changing the Doctrine of a group due to economic reasoning, and influencing the war of conquest on region D, all this due to player built tools, that-¦s the Dust/Legion that i-¦m hoping for. It has shooting people in the face, but it-¦s one of the many many game modes that a FPS can offer. You want ground action? o for it. Want to be an economic tycoon? ave fun. Want to be an architect of designing and maintaining bases (and the cost attached to it?) Here! Want to be a tactical commander, guiding your troops eithr on the ground, or at the confort of your MCC control room? You got it!
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition 3004	Posted - 2014.06.02 15:15:00 - [677] - Quote Natu Nobilis wrote: The Skill tree system in EVE is not an obstacle to the aquisition of different ships. The skil progression system in Legion is specifically entwined with the aquisition of equipment and suits. Besides that, the suits are also infinite. I can-¦t talk about the progression, the gameplay, and the game design, without talking about the skill progression system in Legion, that-¦s the main point. The foundation of the game is the progression system! It-¦s not the progression that defines the gameplay, it-¦s the game design. But when the game design is attached to the progression, then the progression becomes an issue. I din-¦t ****** up my fitting, i had a perfectly good missioning Raven that happened to go to low-sec and got blown up. The impact was that the SHIP that i trained for during months, that i spent a couple of weeks missioning to buy, was blown up and not replaced without more weeks of missioning to buy another one. If a suit is permanent, what-¦s the attachment to it? Zero. Specially if a Suit is so powerful, that a "Prototype Caldari Assault equiped with a Stick of Truth +1" can beat a "Just started Caldari Suit with a +50 Purple Staff of Anal Probing that i bought on the market with real money after someone sold it after spending 2 weeks gringing to have a % chance of dropping it" (Don-¦t know if that-¦s the case, but seems like a good business model unlike EVE where a good ship with poorly fitted equipment DIES to low-tech ships with good player and proper modules). A Lvl 80 player killing 200 Lvl 1 with a single hand and the stater sword is WoW, not "New Eden". Progression ends up defining the overall experience because it-¦s related to how your time is translated in power, and the power is measured in Suits (tied to roles, tied to progression) and equipment (tied to salvaging, hopefully tied to manufacturing from said salvage). We can-¦t talk about Legion and it-¦s overall gameplay experience without talking about progression in it-¦s current apparent form. The hull focused nature of Eve works in Eve, given the slow paced nature of that game but it doesn't translate well to Dust. Your dropsuit having meaning... I think just having access to a dropsuit will give it plenty of meaning to players. Its access to the playstyle that will matter. Do you really think if a dropsuit were to cost 10k ISK instead of 0 ISK it would really have any more meaning? Hell... dropsuits in Dust generally don't hold any meaning to me as it is... its just a counter for the number of lives I have before I have to restock. Because a proto amarr logi suit is X ISK doesnt mean I treasure and value every individual suit like I do in Eve. That will never happen, period. Its the nature of the game. Dust/Legion is not and will never be Eve, they are just fundamentally different games. For me, and most players I suspect, its not the price of a dropsuit that gives it meaning, its being to use it at all. Gallente logi has no meaning to me, because I can't use it. Having 10 Gal logi suits in my inventory is completely irrelevant to me. If I had a Leviathan in my Hanger in Eve that would mean something to me, even though I can't fly one. To try and force some ideal of permanence to Legion because of some misconception of 'meaningful' equipment isn't going to work. If you make dropsuits so expensive that they are truly meaningful just having a single one of them, then you've precluded the use of that suit completely. How many people do you really think would be rolling around in a 10 million isk dropsuit in Dust? I suspect that number would be in the single digits. Its a bad design philosophy for a first person shooter. Now... expensive and high end vehicles? That's another story and I think all of your points could make a lot of sense for the vehicle side of Legion. With which I 100% agree that BPO vehicles are a terrible idea.
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A Dark Taboo 527	Posted - 2014.06.02 15:21:00 - [678] - Quote byte modal wrote: Natu Nobilis wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: I really don't know if there is a good Dust equivalent to a battle badger lol. Killing Protosuits that didnt invest in good core skills while using Militia ones with good skills eh... lol. OK, this morning is off to a strange start. Skimming through here to see what I missed over the weekend and you got my attention. Totally misread you and thought you said "killing prostitutes..." carry on. carry on... GTA is the other way =p
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A Dark Taboo 528	Posted - 2014.06.02 16:11:00 - [679] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Stuff Having a cost makes people plan how much they-¦ll buy. Having a market /manufacturing, makes people plan how much they-¦ll buy, how they-¦-¦ll get it, who-¦s gonna supply how they-¦ll transport, how they-¦re going to secure the transport and the storage of said items. "Major Heist at NLO-3Z IV - "Okinawa" District" Today Capsuleer forces were surprised with a bold move that cleared the stocks of planetary equipment worth 15 Billion ISK at the staging point system "NLO-3Z", the Headquarters of [+ülliance Name] ground forces. Invading elements managed to bypass all stellar and planetary defense systems, and descend into the planet-¦s orbit with an unknown ammount of MCC-¦s in an masterfully planned operation that took 2 hours, 500 mercenary lives, and the pride of said Alliance." It-¦s not only about the "ISK cost", otherwise there would be Titans in every corner. It-¦about the ISK cost + Logistics + Manufactuing + Securing the Location + Time + Material Costs = Titan (2 Months + Several Billion) This point is important to follow the reasoning. You can sell batches of 1000 suits for 1m (making it virtually "unlimited"), i don-¦t care, but it has to have COST be it in time - money - items - work, because there-¦s a holistic system going on with different players doing different things. Same thing for Vehicles, in a larger scale. The meaning it-¦s not only on the equipment itself, the meaning comes from the logistical chain, the time, and the effort invested to get something.
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition 3004	Posted - 2014.06.02 16:27:00 - [680] - Quote Natu Nobilis wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: Stuff Having a cost makes people plan how much they-¦ll buy. Having a market /manufacturing, makes people plan how much they-¦ll buy, how they-¦-¦ll get it, who-¦s gonna supply how they-¦ll transport, how they-¦re going to secure the transport and the storage of said items. "Major Heist at NLO-3Z IV - "Okinawa" District" Today Capsuleer forces were surprised with a bold move that cleared the stocks of planetary equipment worth 15 Billion ISK at the staging point system "NLO-3Z", the Headquarters of [+ülliance Name] ground forces. Invading elements managed to bypass all stellar and planetary defense systems, and descend into the planet-¦s orbit with an unknown ammount of MCC-¦s in an masterfully planned operation that took 2 hours, 500 mercenary lives, and the pride of said Alliance." It-¦s not only about the "ISK cost", otherwise there would be Titans in every corner. It-¦about the ISK cost + Logistics + Manufactuing + Securing the Location + Time + Material Costs = Titan (2 Months + Several Billion) This point is important to follow the reasoning. You can sell batches of 1000 suits for 1m (making it virtually "unlimited"), i don-¦t care, but it has to have COST be it in time - money - items - work, because there-¦s a holistic system going on with different players doing different things. Same thing for Vehicles, in a larger scale. The meaning it-¦s not only on the equipment itself, the meaning comes from the logistical chain, the time, and the effort invested to get something. If a dropsuit costs 250k isk in modules + 0 isk in suit or it costs 240k in modules + 10k in suit.... whats the difference? Your example newscast would be exactly the same either way.

Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 2012	Posted - 2014.06.02 16:48:00 - [681] - Quote Natu Nobilis wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: Stuff Having a cost makes people plan how much they-¦ll buy. Having a market /manufacturing, makes people plan how much they-¦ll buy, how they-¦-¦ll get it, who-¦s gonna supply how they-¦ll transport, how they-¦re going to secure the transport and the storage of said items. "Major Heist at NLO-3Z IV - "Okinawa" District" Today Capsuleer forces were surprised with a bold move that cleared the stocks of planetary equipment worth 15 Billion ISK at the staging point system "NLO-3Z", the Headquarters of [+ülliance Name] ground forces. Invading elements managed to bypass all stellar and planetary defense systems, and descend into the planet-¦s orbit with an unknown ammount of MCC-¦s in an masterfully planned operation that took 2 hours, 500 mercenary lives, and the pride of said Alliance." It-¦s not only about the "ISK cost", otherwise there would be Titans in every corner. It-¦about the ISK cost + Logistics + Manufactuing + Securing the Location + Time + Material Costs = Titan (2 Months + Several Billion) This point is important to follow the reasoning. You can sell batches of 1000 suits for 1m (making it virtually "unlimited"), i don-¦t care, but it has to have COST be it in time - money - items - work, because there-¦s a holistic system going on with different players doing different things. Same thing for Vehicles, in a larger scale. The meaning it-¦s not only on the equipment itself, the meaning comes from the logistical chain, the time, and the effort invested to get something. TL;DR: If you're going to give us BPO anything, give us BPO everything. If you're going to give us BPOs in any case, make sure they have a Bill of Materials and aren't just "yay here's free stuffz!!!!" Minmatar Weapons Specialist Explosives Connoisseur Logi for Hire
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A Dark Taboo 528	Posted - 2014.06.02 16:57:00 - [682] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: If a dropsuit costs 250k isk in modules + 0 isk in suit or it costs 240k in modules + 10k in suit.... whats the difference? Your example newscast would be exactly the same either way. If you-¦re asking what-¦s the difference, you haven-¦t read that it-¦s not about ISK cost alone but the logistical chain behind it, the EFFORT of doing it. If a person didn-¦t stockpiled enough Suit (cheap or not) and a battle happens over a district, and there-¦s no suits available neither on the district/planetary/station market hub, they should fight with militia suits and militia equip because they were stupid enought not to plan ahead.
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition 3005	Posted - 2014.06.02 17:06:00 - [683] - Quote Natu Nobilis wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: If a dropsuit costs 250k isk in modules + 0 isk in suit or it costs 240k in modules + 10k in suit.... whats the difference? Your example newscast would be exactly the same either way. If you-¦re asking what-¦s the difference, you haven-¦t read that it-¦s not about ISK cost alone but the logistical chain behind it, the EFFORT of doing it. If a person didn-¦t stockpiled enough Suit (cheap or not) and a battle happens over a district, and there-¦s no suits available neither on the district/planetary/station market hub, they should fight with militia suits and militia equip because they were stupid enought not to plan ahead. Sounds like a lot of unnecessary effort tbh, both on the development and player side... for no good reason but to exist in itself. If you don't bring enough modules you'll be playing in suits with no mods... which are gonna be just as, if not less, effective than a militia suit with militia equipment. In terms of manufacturing and logistics... you can do all of that with modules alone. If you price suits cheap enough then everyone just brings 10000 of every suit to a match... having suits cost isk doesn't add any additional depth to the gameplay. If you notice with these industry changes, even EVE is trying to reduce some of the bloat from unnecessarily complex things that don't actually add any depth to game play. I don't disagree with the null sec logistics side of things at all, I just don't see how having non-BPO dropsuits make it any better. You still have all of the same gameplay elements, just less bloat.
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A Dark Taboo 530	Posted - 2014.06.02 19:39:00 - [684] - Quote If we want an effortless game, forget the economy, manufacturing, logistics and market. All suits are unlimited, equip drop after we kill bosses,/salvage, we trade items between players and if i want to sell something i use an auction house. That would be an unique MMORPGFPS on the market. If you consider Industry a bloat, then we-¦re talking from very different perspectives. All i can see so far is a simplified skiltree that will be very easy for both players and Drinking Birds, a grinding system that is very similar to any hack/slash game out there, an auction house and a player trade window that will be called "market", in a fast paced action fps. NPE had several suggestions to be both player acessible and veteran fluid. The suit thing is attached to the skillsystem No idea what the Industry will (or won-¦t) do Market looks like player trade window and Acution house No hint on mechanics of PC, but it-¦s connected to the Industry (or lack of) Want to try something new? Sure. Different from the current system being completely broken. Really need to see more, but so far... Progression links to everything, that-¦s why this topic is (was) so populated. Again, CCP is the company, i-¦m a mere player, all i can do is talk about the game i-¦ve been expecting since 2009
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition 3006	Posted - 2014.06.02 19:59:00 - [685] - Quote Natu Nobilis wrote: If you consider Industry a bloat, then we-¦re talking from very different perspectives. Industry in Eve, and by extension much of the economy itself, is not a bloat altogether as a feature. But it has a lot of bloat in it. Things like 'Get Jobs' in the UI. That serves no purpose, do you believe that its really important that its there? I don't mean the feature is inconsequential by any means, but its not all that streamlines either. Hence the substantial changes they are making to the game. I truly believe that these things are similar to isk for suits in Legion. It doesn't really matter that you have to pay isk for a suit, its just an additional step and it doesn't matter. It solves several issues on its own though, such as porting Dust Dropsuit BPOs, trying to tie suits into the salvage economy, rookie fits (in general) to name a few. I see nothing about consumable dropsuits that adds to the game play of Legion. As far as the rest of your post... I agree. Need to see more before making any judgement on other aspects of the game. They've really shown us very little in terms of game play elements, its all just UI and graphics that we've so far.
byte modal 103	Posted - 2014.06.02 21:23:00 - [686] - Quote Natu Nobilis wrote: If we want an effortless game, forget the economy, manufacturing, logistics and market. All suits are unlimited, equip drop after we kill bosses,/salvage, we trade items between players and if i want to sell something i use an auction house. That would be an unique MMORPGFPS on the market. If you consider Industry a bloat, then we-¦re talking from very different perspectives. All i can see so far is a simplified skiltree that will be very easy for both players and Drinking Birds, a grinding system that is very similar to any hack/slash game out there, an auction house and a player trade window that will be called "market", in a fast paced action fps. NPE had several suggestions to be both player acessible and veteran fluid. The suit thing is attached to the skillsystem No idea what the Industry will (or won-¦t) do Market looks like player trade window and Acution house No hint on mechanics of PC, but it-¦s connected to the Industry (or lack of) Want to try something new? Sure. Different from the current system being completely broken. Really need to see more, but so far... Progression links to everything, that-¦s why this topic is (was) so populated. Again, CCP is the company, i-¦m a mere player, all i can do is talk about the game i-¦ve been expecting since 2009 That's it. Naming my first born Natu. Irony: Post #35
Malkai Inos Any Given Day 1354	Posted - 2014.06.02 22:47:00 - [687] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: [...]I see nothing about consumable dropsuits that adds to the game play of Legion.[...] "I see nothing about consumable weapons that adds to the game play of Legion." Your reasoning isn't wrong in that it does follow when viewed in isolation but you can rephrase it to include every other item with little or no modification as long as you overlook the fact that it's logical conclusion necessarily begs the question where to stop and why. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2509	Posted - 2014.06.02 22:56:00 - [688] - Quote Malkai Inos wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: [...]I see nothing about consumable dropsuits that adds to the game play of Legion.[...] "I see nothing about consumable weapons that adds to the game play of Legion." Your reasoning isn't wrong in that it does follow when viewed in isolation but you can rephrase it to include every other item with little or no modification as long as you overlook the fact that it's logical conclusion necessarily begs the question where to stop and why. this grammatical phenomenon is called a fallacy click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition 3006	Posted - 2014.06.02 23:29:00 - [689] - Quote Malkai Inos wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: [...]I see nothing about consumable dropsuits that adds to the game play of Legion.[...] "I see nothing about consumable weapons that adds to the game play of Legion." Your reasoning isn't wrong in that it does follow when viewed in isolation but you can rephrase it to include every other item with little or no modification as long as you overlook the fact that it's logical conclusion necessarily begs the question where to stop and why. There is a difference between suits and the equipment that goes on each suit. Looting weapons and modules is a thing in Eve and will be a thing in Legion as far as we know atm. Looting hulls in Eve (except repackaged ones being moved by indys and maybe carriers I guess) doesn't really happen. However, given the S/M/L/Captial classifications on ships, having hull costs makes a lot of sense from a design standpoint. In Legion its essentially like flying around in only tech I frigates. The normalization of hull strength between all tech I frigates would mean very little in that context, and removing the hulls themselves wouldn't really affect much. In Legion, there will be several classifications of weaponry (STD/ADV/PRO in Dust atm which will turn into whatever it gets renamed to in Legion), that weaponry will have a CPU/PG fitting cost and that will partially determine your characters strength on the field. The sum of the modules will be your suits power, much less than the tiercided dropsuit selection. Also, almost everything (except for Light weapons atm, which may even be optional in Legion) are not required to spawn. A suit is ALWAYS required to spawn and to house modules. You will pay an ISK cost for a more powerful weapon. In legion, with tiercide, you will not be able to pay an increased cost for a more powerful dropsuit. There are distinct fundamental differences between Dropsuits and the modules that you place into dropsuits, you cannot equate the two from a design standpoint. At some point there will have to be a 'free' suit option at some point in the game, where there will never have to be a free weapon option in the game (if a suit requires a LW like it does in Dust then that free suit would have to come with a free weapon but that weapon would never have to be free on any other suit).
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition 3007	Posted - 2014.06.03 02:03:00 - [690] - Quote To add on to the above though, if the game begins to move away from tiercided dropsuits and direct upgraded variants to any of the dropsuit, I believe those should come with an isk cost. It would also be okay to add direct upgrade variants as they are implementing metascore matchmaking. For an easy example: If they introduce a Caldari Assault Dropsuit II - which is pretty much just a direct upgrade to the Caldari Assault Dropsuit, that upgrade SHOULD definitely come with an isk. Possibly through something like the invention system where you could salvage data cores and create tech II BPCs based on the number of data cores you have. So you have a CAD I BPO and then you could take CAD + 15 Caldari Data Cores (or more specifically Caldari Medium Data Cores or even Caldari Assault Data Cores) = 15 Caldari Assault Dropsuit II BPCs. It remains simplified while adding another layer to the game play. The isk cost to those suits comes directly from the price of the data cores themselves. It maintains a 'no npc' market as well as a plus side. Something like this could also be done directly to the racial variants if necessary based on their power differential. Something like Basic Assault Dropsuit + Caldari Data Core = Caldari Assault Dropsuit. I get the impression though that they intend for relatively equal power for all existing dropsuit assets. So a system like that might be better saved for an expansion release.

Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4338	Posted - 2014.06.03 05:06:00 - [691] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Malkai Inos wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: [...]I see nothing about consumable dropsuits that adds to the game play of Legion.[...] "I see nothing about consumable weapons that adds to the game play of Legion." Your reasoning isn't wrong in that it does follow when viewed in isolation but you can rephrase it to include every other item with little or no modification as long as you overlook the fact that it's logical conclusion necessarily begs the question where to stop and why. There is a difference between suits and the equipment that goes on each suit. Looting weapons and modules is a thing in Eve and will be a thing in Legion as far as we know atm. Looting hulls in Eve (except repackaged ones being moved by indys and maybe carriers I guess) doesn't really happen. However, given the S/M/L/Captial classifications on ships, having hull costs makes a lot of sense from a design standpoint. In Legion its essentially like flying around in only tech I frigates. The normalization of hull strength between all tech I frigates would mean very little in that context, and removing the hulls themselves wouldn't really affect much. In Legion, there will be several classifications of weaponry (STD/ADV/PRO in Dust atm which will turn into whatever it gets renamed to in Legion), that weaponry will have a CPU/PG fitting cost and that will partially determine your characters strength on the field. The sum of the modules will be your suits power, much less than the tiercided dropsuit selection. Also, almost everything (except for Light weapons atm, which may even be optional in Legion) are not required to spawn. A suit is ALWAYS required to spawn and to house modules. You will pay an ISK cost for a more powerful weapon. In legion, with tiercide, you will not be able to pay an increased cost for a more powerful dropsuit. There are distinct fundamental differences between Dropsuits and the modules that you place into dropsuits, you cannot equate the two from a design standpoint. At some point there will have to be a 'free' suit option at some point in the game, where there will never have to be a free weapon option in the game (if a suit requires a LW like it does in Dust then that free suit would have to come with a free weapon but that weapon would never have to be free on any other suit). I appreciate the visual distinction, for one thing. If a person is running proto I can tell right away he is a bigger threat than the scrubs surrounding him. This allows me to make an intelligent decision about who, and how, to engage. If every tom **** and jerry is running proto, but some people are running it with militia mods and some are running with proto mods, I can't make that immediate distinction. It's bad battlefield intel. Of course, back in the day CCP were a lot better about making proto colors obvious. Now, it's really rather difficult sometimes. Like the difference between a Gal Sent proto or advanced is hard to tell from a glance.
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1379	Posted - 2014.06.03 08:03:00 - [692] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: I appreciate the visual distinction, for one thing. If a person is running proto I can tell right away he is a bigger threat than the scrubs surrounding him. This allows me to make an intelligent decision about who, and how, to engage. If every tom ** and jerry is running proto, but some people are running it with militia mods and some are running with proto mods, I can't make that immediate distinction. It's bad battlefield intel. Of course, back in the day CCP were a lot better about making proto colors obvious. Now, it's really rather difficult sometimes. Like the difference between a Gal Sent proto or advanced is hard to tell from a glance. In my post on the UI there here, I make mention of the need for a visual clue as to the fitting of an opponents suit in battle. CPM1** Candidate CEO of DUST University
Kincate DUST University Ivy League 54	Posted - 2014.06.03 12:28:00 - [693] - Quote Im coming late to the party I just got around to watching the progression presentation. I have a small issue with this system. Meta level, this is great for a match making system. In fact it is the best idea you can have for match making. What about things which should be free for all? I am thinking down the line in Null sec conflicts (Yes I realize we are not there yet) these should not be "Match making sessions" this should lend itself more to throwing massive amounts of resources at a conflict, attritional warfare. I only bring this up because not because I believe this is a bad system for match making, but that match making is not the best system for certain aspects of gameplay. I just do not want to see the game backed into a position where it cannot create the other things Legion should be aiming for in the future. EDIT A thought occured to me after post. For the love of god while you are doing all of this defining redefine/rename/fix LAVs I love LAVs and I love the concept of them as an actual Light attack Vehicle. If this is not the intended role for them change the damn name. Otherwise if it is supposed to be a squad support vehicle make it that, no more easily picked off gunners, put some mechanics in so they are good for more than driving a heavy around so he can kill with his HMG. I know it is a somewhat seperate issue but along the lines of developing roles when you transfer this role system to vehicles keep that in mind. 1st Legionhaire
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition 3007	Posted - 2014.06.03 13:33:00 - [694] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: I appreciate the visual distinction, for one thing. If a person is running proto I can tell right away he is a bigger threat than the scrubs surrounding him. This allows me to make an intelligent decision about who, and how, to engage. If every tom **** and jerry is running proto, but some people are running it with militia mods and some are running with proto mods, I can't make that immediate distinction. It's bad battlefield intel. Of course, back in the day CCP were a lot better about making proto colors obvious. Now, it's really rather difficult sometimes. Like the difference between a Gal Sent proto or advanced is hard to tell from a glance. If dropsuit painting becomes part of the monetization model in Legion, we're probably going to need to get away from 'suits at a glance' identification mechanics and completely redo how we identify suits and their potential threat level using a more developed UI. Although, just like Eve, there should be some level of mystery as well imo.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4340	Posted - 2014.06.03 18:47:00 - [695] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: I appreciate the visual distinction, for one thing. If a person is running proto I can tell right away he is a bigger threat than the scrubs surrounding him. This allows me to make an intelligent decision about who, and how, to engage. If every tom **** and jerry is running proto, but some people are running it with militia mods and some are running with proto mods, I can't make that immediate distinction. It's bad battlefield intel. Of course, back in the day CCP were a lot better about making proto colors obvious. Now, it's really rather difficult sometimes. Like the difference between a Gal Sent proto or advanced is hard to tell from a glance. If dropsuit painting becomes part of the monetization model in Legion, we're probably going to need to get away from 'suits at a glance' identification mechanics and completely redo how we identify suits and their potential threat level using a more developed UI. Although, just like Eve, there should be some level of mystery as well imo. There is no level of mystery in EVE. Your overview tells you exactly the hull of the ship they are flying, and if you zoom in you can even see what kind of turrets they have mounted before they even fire. The only unknown is what modules and riggings they have on it.
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2516	Posted - 2014.06.03 22:34:00 - [696] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: I appreciate the visual distinction, for one thing. If a person is running proto I can tell right away he is a bigger threat than the scrubs surrounding him. This allows me to make an intelligent decision about who, and how, to engage. If every tom **** and jerry is running proto, but some people are running it with militia mods and some are running with proto mods, I can't make that immediate distinction. It's bad battlefield intel. Of course, back in the day CCP were a lot better about making proto colors obvious. Now, it's really rather difficult sometimes. Like the difference between a Gal Sent proto or advanced is hard to tell from a glance. If dropsuit painting becomes part of the monetization model in Legion, we're probably going to need to get away from 'suits at a glance' identification mechanics and completely redo how we identify suits and their potential threat level using a more developed UI. Although, just like Eve, there should be some level of mystery as well imo. There is no level of mystery in EVE. Your overview tells you exactly the hull of the ship they are flying, and if you zoom in you can even see what kind of turrets they have mounted before they even fire. The only unknown is what modules and riggings they have on it. While paint bucket may be a thing in the future we need to account for, I'm not entirely certain it's even a good idea for some things. If you replace visual confirming of the model itself with something like a symbol above a persons head, then the game will largely degrade back down to chevron hunting. If it's nothing more than some text at the bottom of the screen, then that's a really poor way of doing it as you can't really take the time to read everything going on when a target zips past you. When you're running around in crap gear and a dark silouette with a pair of blood red glowy eyes comes around the corner, you know EXACTLY what the situation is. That kind of visual intimidation should not be replaced with some dinky icon or subtext nobody is going to read. It damages the experience. And if everyone is running around with the same intimidating model, it is also made irrelevant because it is then the norm. You zoom in on the ship models? click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4341	Posted - 2014.06.03 23:51:00 - [697] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: I appreciate the visual distinction, for one thing. If a person is running proto I can tell right away he is a bigger threat than the scrubs surrounding him. This allows me to make an intelligent decision about who, and how, to engage. If every tom **** and jerry is running proto, but some people are running it with militia mods and some are running with proto mods, I can't make that immediate distinction. It's bad battlefield intel. Of course, back in the day CCP were a lot better about making proto colors obvious. Now, it's really rather difficult sometimes. Like the difference between a Gal Sent proto or advanced is hard to tell from a glance. If dropsuit painting becomes part of the monetization model in Legion, we're probably going to need to get away from 'suits at a glance' identification mechanics and completely redo how we identify suits and their potential threat level using a more developed UI. Although, just like Eve, there should be some level of mystery as well imo. There is no level of mystery in EVE. Your overview tells you exactly the hull of the ship they are flying, and if you zoom in you can even see what kind of turrets they have mounted before they even fire. The only unknown is what modules and riggings they have on it. While paint bucket may be a thing in the future we need to account for, I'm not entirely certain it's even a good idea for some things. If you replace visual confirming of the model itself with something like a symbol above a persons head, then the game will largely degrade back down to chevron hunting. If it's nothing more than some text at the bottom of the screen, then that's a really poor way of doing it as you can't really take the time to read everything going on when a target zips past you. When you're running around in crap gear and a dark silouette with a pair of blood red glowy eyes comes around the corner, you know EXACTLY what the situation is. That kind of visual intimidation should not be replaced with some dinky icon or subtext nobody is going to read. It damages the experience. And if everyone is running around with the same intimidating model, it is also made irrelevant because it is then the norm. You zoom in on the ship models? After the first salvo is fired at you its pointless as combat log tells the tale , but if im at range or cloaked prior to the fight starting it is very useful. Simply recognizing the weapons they have attached can tell you if they are brawl fit or kite fit, and this is crucial information to know before deciding whether or not to engage them and, most importantly, HOW to engage them.
Captain Crutches Nexus Marines 134	Posted - 2014.06.04 05:18:00 - [698] - Quote Why do my post ideas always form before bed? Anyway, here's some words on suit BPO's and "emotional attachment". Let's say, eventually - certainly not anytime soon after release, but eventually - Legion reaches a point where large-scale ground or combined ground/space battles can be fought and have a newsworthy impact at the level of 6VDT or B-R. Z's reasoning seems to be that if you participate in such a battle, you can then later go into your Tony Stark Hall of Suits and be able to say "see, this is the suit I used in that famous fight, wasn't it awesome?" The obvious problem I see is that, with all suits being unlimited, you'll only have at most one BPO of each type of suit. And in all likelihood, you'll die at least once during the battle and the instance of that type of suit you were using is destroyed. So you can only say "this is the type of suit I used in that big fight". Also likely is that, depending on how many times you die/respawn/resupply, you'll use more than one type of suit in a large battle, and indeed probably more than one fit of the same type of suit (i.e. a Gallente scout fit for sniping, and a Gallente scout with a shotgun). So you really can only say "this is one of the types of suits I used in that big fight, and I had it fit like this, and like this, and like this..." Indeed, the more you diversify and the more types of suits you use, the less special they become in that context. I was in the battle of 6VDT, and my Stabber Fleet Issue somehow survived (probably because nobody cared enough to shoot the scrub flying an SFI in a Zealot fleet, but whatever). I still have that ship. Eventually it will get blown up, or sold, or otherwise taken off my hands. I may get another later on, and I may fit it the same way, but it will not be the same one I flew in that fight. It will be identical in every way, but it will probably have never even been in that system, especially not on that day in that fleet flown by this pilot. That is "emotional attachment". From what I can tell, Z wants something on the level of "this is the ship I flew in this fight". Unfortunately, I don't think that kind of connection is possible in an FPS where death and item loss are so much more frequent. The best we can do is "I used this type of suit, fit like this" - functionally equivalent, yes, but the connection just isn't there on that level. Unless after every death the remains of your suit are somehow transported back to the MCC/CRU/etc and reconstructed in the time it takes you to respawn... you got a new suit. It ain't the same one. And it probably took materials to make, which cost money. Honestly, if the Tony Stark room is the only reason for giving us unlimited suits, you might as well not bother. It just makes so much more sense for the suits not to be free. Give us BPOs, sure, but make them real New Eden BPOs that cost money to manufacture. If a frigate can be built in hours (or is it minutes? I don't into industry), a dropsuit can probably be built in seconds, so we get our replacements fast, they just cost money. Z's progression is the only thing about Legion that gives me doubts. The rest has me totally stoked! @CaptainCrutches
Kincate DUST University Ivy League 54	Posted - 2014.06.04 11:15:00 - [699] - Quote Captain Crutches wrote: Why do my post ideas always form before bed? Anyway, here's some words on suit BPO's and "emotional attachment". Let's say, eventually - certainly not anytime soon after release, but eventually - Legion reaches a point where large-scale ground or combined ground/space battles can be fought and have a newsworthy impact at the level of 6VDT or B-R. lots of other good stuff was said here read post above for details. Yes, I appreciate where CCP Z is coming from but in this particular set of games you do not get attached to your equipment, should not either. Maybe you become fond of a certain fit or a particular dropsuit because of the performance. I have nothing against a hall of suits, but I urge CCP Z to consider the Eve addage "Do not fly what you cannot afford to lose" for Legion I say the same thing do not fight in what you cannot afford to lose. To CCP Z I say this, I can take a leap of faith on this progression system it seems only fair to have it tried in beta before I become opposed to it. But Dropsuits and any equipment you intend to use should not be free, and if you are going to meta level then you can reduce the stats of the only thing which should be free, the Militia dropsuits. Free anything will wreck havoc on a game like this. You where not here for free Balochs, let me assure you the scene of a half dozen balochs driving around trying to run people over with no fear of losing their free equipment did nothing for gameplay. I realize you have said there will be other ISK sinks but Dropsuits should be one of them, any equipment you use (In my mind to include even militia equipment beyond the dropsuit and militia weapon) should be an isk sink. 1st Legionhaire
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4344	Posted - 2014.06.04 19:47:00 - [700] - Quote Kincate wrote: Captain Crutches wrote: Why do my post ideas always form before bed? Anyway, here's some words on suit BPO's and "emotional attachment". Let's say, eventually - certainly not anytime soon after release, but eventually - Legion reaches a point where large-scale ground or combined ground/space battles can be fought and have a newsworthy impact at the level of 6VDT or B-R. lots of other good stuff was said here read post above for details. Yes, I appreciate where CCP Z is coming from but in this particular set of games you do not get attached to your equipment, should not either. Maybe you become fond of a certain fit or a particular dropsuit because of the performance. I have nothing against a hall of suits, but I urge CCP Z to consider the Eve addage "Do not fly what you cannot afford to lose" for Legion I say the same thing do not fight in what you cannot afford to lose. To CCP Z I say this, I can take a leap of faith on this progression system it seems only fair to have it tried in beta before I become opposed to it. But Dropsuits and any equipment you intend to use should not be free, and if you are going to meta level then you can reduce the stats of the only thing which should be free, the Militia dropsuits. Free anything will wreck havoc on a game like this. You where not here for free Balochs, let me assure you the scene of a half dozen balochs driving around trying to run people over with no fear of losing their free equipment did nothing for gameplay. I realize you have said there will be other ISK sinks but Dropsuits should be one of them, any equipment you use (In my mind to include even militia equipment beyond the dropsuit and militia weapon) should be an isk sink. It is NOT fair to try anything in beta that is likely to fail. By the time beta is out, the game development process has wasted tens of thousands of human man hours that could have been spent on something productive. Entire feature sets will be missing because CCP wanted to try something destined to fail. Do not tell them it's ok, because it isn't.

The-Errorist SVER True Blood 730	Posted - 2014.06.04 23:26:00 - [701] - Quote Will vehicle hulls also not be part of what is lost in battle? Also will skillbooks come from salvage or from NPCs and will they most likely be very expensive? MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. Scanned scouts aren't dead scouts, they're +600HP scouts.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8744	Posted - 2014.06.05 00:25:00 - [702] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Kincate wrote: Captain Crutches wrote: Why do my post ideas always form before bed? Anyway, here's some words on suit BPO's and "emotional attachment". Let's say, eventually - certainly not anytime soon after release, but eventually - Legion reaches a point where large-scale ground or combined ground/space battles can be fought and have a newsworthy impact at the level of 6VDT or B-R. lots of other good stuff was said here read post above for details. Yes, I appreciate where CCP Z is coming from but in this particular set of games you do not get attached to your equipment, should not either. Maybe you become fond of a certain fit or a particular dropsuit because of the performance. I have nothing against a hall of suits, but I urge CCP Z to consider the Eve addage "Do not fly what you cannot afford to lose" for Legion I say the same thing do not fight in what you cannot afford to lose. To CCP Z I say this, I can take a leap of faith on this progression system it seems only fair to have it tried in beta before I become opposed to it. But Dropsuits and any equipment you intend to use should not be free, and if you are going to meta level then you can reduce the stats of the only thing which should be free, the Militia dropsuits. Free anything will wreck havoc on a game like this. You where not here for free Balochs, let me assure you the scene of a half dozen balochs driving around trying to run people over with no fear of losing their free equipment did nothing for gameplay. I realize you have said there will be other ISK sinks but Dropsuits should be one of them, any equipment you use (In my mind to include even militia equipment beyond the dropsuit and militia weapon) should be an isk sink. It is NOT fair to try anything in beta that is likely to fail. By the time beta is out, the game development process has wasted tens of thousands of human man hours that could have been spent on something productive. Entire feature sets will be missing because CCP wanted to try something destined to fail. Do not tell them it's ok, because it isn't. That's what that Singularity Test Server that CCP has for Eve Online is for. To test things before they get implemented. And since Legion will be on the PC just like Eve Online, it will be much easier to be able to test things. This is not possible with Dust since Sony is in the way with its update charges and long approval process. That and the fact that consoles are not that happy at all to link up with a poorly optimized and poorly coded test version of a game. Last time Dust was on the Test Server, a crap ton of consoles were dying. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8744	Posted - 2014.06.05 00:26:00 - [703] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: Will vehicle hulls also not be part of what is lost in battle? Also will skillbooks come from salvage or from NPCs and will they most likely be very expensive? If Legion follows Eve Online's style of NPE, then some skill books would likely be free to those who complete tutorials and stuff like that. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Kincate DUST University Ivy League 57	Posted - 2014.06.05 11:05:00 - [704] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: It is NOT fair to try anything in beta that is likely to fail. By the time beta is out, the game development process has wasted tens of thousands of human man hours that could have been spent on something productive. Entire feature sets will be missing because CCP wanted to try something destined to fail. Do not tell them it's ok, because it isn't. I very much doubt this system will cause some sort of catostrophic failure. It is as likely to succeed at making the game better as it is to fail. 1st Legionhaire
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A Dark Taboo 533	Posted - 2014.06.05 14:16:00 - [705] - Quote This explains a lot. http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jun/05/world-of-darkness-the-inside-story-mmo-ccp-white-wolf
The-Errorist SVER True Blood 732	Posted - 2014.06.05 15:25:00 - [706] - Quote Natu Nobilis wrote: This explains a lot. http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jun/05/world-of-darkness-the-inside-story-mmo-ccp-white-wolf It does, but this thread nor this section of the forums is the right place to post it. MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. http://vimeo.com/93181621
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A Dark Taboo 537	Posted - 2014.06.05 17:08:00 - [707] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: [quote=Natu Nobilis] It does, but this thread nor this section of the forums is the right place to post it. Actually, its the perfect place for it. CCP is showing a lack of perspective on their goals, "the final destination", and progression is ALL about the "here to from here". Half-implemented stuff kills games. Dust is half-implemented. In the vehicles case, it-¦s not a figure of speech, it-¦s actually "There-¦s only Caldari and Gallente Vehicles" A half system is as bad as a bad system. The answer is not necesarily to implement a new system (probably a new half one), but to fix the things that are lacking and launch new stuf only when complete.
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 2015	Posted - 2014.06.05 18:15:00 - [708] - Quote Natu Nobilis wrote: This explains a lot. http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jun/05/world-of-darkness-the-inside-story-mmo-ccp-white-wolf Sad link is sad. RIP WoD Guess I'll never get to play a False Black Hand Malk Anti.... Minmatar Weapons Specialist Explosives Connoisseur Logi for Hire
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8752	Posted - 2014.06.05 18:29:00 - [709] - Quote I suppose we may have discouraged CCP Z for a long while. I haven't seen him post anything here recently. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 2015	Posted - 2014.06.05 18:39:00 - [710] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: I suppose we may have discouraged CCP Z for a long while. I haven't seen him post anything here recently. Hopefully this is because he is taking our advice and revising his ideas for Progression Minmatar Weapons Specialist Explosives Connoisseur Logi for Hire

steadyhand amarr shadows of 514 3151	Posted - 2014.06.05 19:02:00 - [711] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: I suppose we may have discouraged CCP Z for a long while. I haven't seen him post anything here recently. Hopefully this is because he is taking our advice and revising his ideas for Progression AHAHHAAHAHHAHAAHHAHAHAHAAHHAH i mean sure :) (joke was easy to make, i acuttly agree with the progression change because i understand where are making a shooter here) "i dont care about you or your goals, just show me the dam isk" winner of EU squad cup GOGO power rangers
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A Dark Taboo 537	Posted - 2014.06.05 19:16:00 - [712] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: I suppose we may have discouraged CCP Z for a long while. I haven't seen him post anything here recently. Hopefully this is because he is taking our advice and revising his ideas for Progression Nahhhh, he's giving interviews about all the things we are complaining and he wants to implement anyway. http://www.mmorpg.com/mobile/features.cfm?read=8525&game=494&ismb=1
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2534	Posted - 2014.06.06 02:57:00 - [713] - Quote steadyhand amarr wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: I suppose we may have discouraged CCP Z for a long while. I haven't seen him post anything here recently. Hopefully this is because he is taking our advice and revising his ideas for Progression AHAHHAAHAHHAHAAHHAHAHAHAAHHAH i mean sure :) (joke was easy to make, i acuttly agree with the progression change because i understand where are making a shooter here) "shooter" Doesn't mean "a bunch of idiots are playing" click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1390	Posted - 2014.06.07 12:35:00 - [714] - Quote Anymore news for us at all? CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8752	Posted - 2014.06.07 16:22:00 - [715] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: Anymore news for us at all? I think we scared him off. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
McFurious TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 787	Posted - 2014.06.09 20:04:00 - [716] - Quote So after 36 pages of requested feedback of people basically saying, "No. This is bad," and a bunch of detailed posts on how it could be done better, he's still just gonna do whatever he was already planning to do. Glad to know the feedback has been so helpful. Half Irish. Often angry. Grizzled Masshole Closed Beta Vet PC > Console
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A Dark Taboo 539	Posted - 2014.06.10 01:40:00 - [717] - Quote Do not despair! There-¦s always Battlefront to look foward to
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8759	Posted - 2014.06.10 03:38:00 - [718] - Quote Natu Nobilis wrote: Do not despair! There-¦s always Battlefront to look foward to I like Star Wars when it was only known as a movie. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8759	Posted - 2014.06.10 03:39:00 - [719] - Quote I just noticed... CCP Z has been awfully quiet ever since the recent bout of layoffs. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2560	Posted - 2014.06.10 06:38:00 - [720] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: The-Errorist wrote: Will vehicle hulls also not be part of what is lost in battle? Also will skillbooks come from salvage or from NPCs and will they most likely be very expensive? If Legion follows Eve Online's style of NPE, then some skill books would likely be free to those who complete tutorials and stuff like that. Most of the skillbooks still have to be bought in EVE. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-

Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2560	Posted - 2014.06.10 06:41:00 - [721] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Natu Nobilis wrote: Do not despair! There-¦s always Battlefront to look foward to I like Star Wars when it was only known as a movie. That period lasted for like 6 years. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A Dark Taboo 539	Posted - 2014.06.10 16:16:00 - [722] - Quote Why can-¦t we get more games like Tie-Fighter? I-¦m really hoping EVE Valkirie does somethign like this =~ My CCP wetdream woud be a New Eden battlefront with the EVE economy system
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A Dark Taboo 539	Posted - 2014.06.10 17:00:00 - [723] - Quote About "Open Worlds"
Happy Violentime OMFGZOMBIESRUN 668	Posted - 2014.06.10 17:43:00 - [724] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: I just noticed... CCP Z has been awfully quiet ever since the recent bout of layoffs. Fingers crossed eh
byte modal 103	Posted - 2014.06.10 17:50:00 - [725] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: I just noticed... CCP Z has been awfully quiet ever since the recent bout of layoffs. Came here to bump a thread for more attention then realized uh... it's a sticky Wow. I don't know how to read that. I saw the article and then the layoff news. I honestly am at a loss as to what to think or feel since, ...on all of this. I just keep typing and backspacing here because nothing that comes out really holds the weight that I feel this topic deserves. Nor does this process help clear my head of random thoughts that usually comes from the forced organization required to translate those thoughts to another. Sure, I have been frustrated in the level of communication or lack of dialogue, but at the end of the day I get that it's not my game to build. I'll either enjoy the results or I will not. I will continue to hope for the best and see what comes. But if it's true that Z was part of the 49, wow. just wow. On a personal level, I hope not. On a more general level I can't help but think wtf, CCP? Sh!t rolls downhill. I've learned that in my employment, sure. But learning that should come with perspective along side that realization---perspective that management at any level should damn well know before daring to take the reigns of any project. Sh!t may roll on down that hill because it's just damn easier to blame "those... down there" than to accept responsibility for one's poor decisions, mismanagement, or blatant ignorance of a product and its production requirements and constraints, but until the later is corrected, that same sh!t will just continue rolling on and on and on.... no matter how many rounds of layoffs or staff replacements occur. I'm going to stop here out of fear of this turning into a rant, or worse, derailing this thread more than it has been already. Idunno, guys. Fingers cross and all that, I guess. For whatever it's worth, I've enjoyed reading most all of your posts (both player and dev alike) and being part of the conversations that I've put into, ever how minimal my part may be. Whether I agree with you or not, I respect and enjoy the debate. We'll see what comes then, yes? All the best, - me. Irony: Post #35
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8760	Posted - 2014.06.10 18:04:00 - [726] - Quote byte modal wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: I just noticed... CCP Z has been awfully quiet ever since the recent bout of layoffs. Came here to bump a thread for more attention then realized uh... it's a sticky Wow. I don't know how to read that. I saw the article and then the layoff news. I honestly am at a loss as to what to think or feel since, ...on all of this. I just keep typing and backspacing here because nothing that comes out really holds the weight that I feel this topic deserves. Nor does this process help clear my head of random thoughts that usually comes from the forced organization required to translate those thoughts to another. Sure, I have been frustrated in the level of communication or lack of dialogue, but at the end of the day I get that it's not my game to build. I'll either enjoy the results or I will not. I will continue to hope for the best and see what comes. But if it's true that Z was part of the 49, wow. just wow. On a personal level, I hope not. On a more general level I can't help but think wtf, CCP? Sh!t rolls downhill. I've learned that in my employment, sure. But learning that should come with perspective along side that realization---perspective that management at any level should damn well know before daring to take the reigns of any project. Sh!t may roll on down that hill because it's just damn easier to blame "those... down there" than to accept responsibility for one's poor decisions, mismanagement, or blatant ignorance of a product and its production requirements and constraints, but until the later is corrected, that same sh!t will just continue rolling on and on and on.... no matter how many rounds of layoffs or staff replacements occur. I'm going to stop here out of fear of this turning into a rant, or worse, derailing this thread more than it has been already. Idunno, guys. Fingers cross and all that, I guess. For whatever it's worth, I've enjoyed reading most all of your posts (both player and dev alike) and being part of the conversations that I've put into, ever how minimal my part may be. Whether I agree with you or not, I respect and enjoy the debate. We'll see what comes then, yes? All the best, - me. Well, I just brought it up because of the shear coincidence I see here. Even though I have my disagreements with CCP Z on the issue of progression, I also personally don't want him to go as I want to give every Dev a chance to improve themselves. CCP Z did say he is taking in our feedback. I just want to see for myself if he really has changed his mind so far after the loooooooooong discussion we all just had. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
byte modal 103	Posted - 2014.06.10 18:19:00 - [727] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: [quote=byte modal][quote=Maken Tosch] Well, I just brought it up because of the shear coincidence I see here. Even though I have my disagreements with CCP Z on the issue of progression, I also personally don't want him to go as I want to give every Dev a chance to improve themselves. CCP Z did say he is taking in our feedback. I just want to see for myself if he really has changed his mind so far after the loooooooooong discussion we all just had. of course. i didn't mean to imply anything in quoting your earlier post if i came across as that. it's just that i had noticed it too and used it as a springboard to branch off into my own frustrations. on mobile atm. hoping this reads better than on my screen here lol. Irony: Post #35
Skylight Atoma The Phoenix Federation Dark Taboo 8	Posted - 2014.06.10 22:34:00 - [728] - Quote Quote: You will have different contracts offered to you depending on your Dropsuit Meta Level. Basically, if you have 3 fittings with a 120, 200 and 350 Metalevel, you will have access to 3 different brackets where people will have the same Metalevel range as you. So, no Dropsuit will be obsolete. You will have access to non-match made battles, so basically you can pick any Dropsuit you want. So it sounds like you want to discourage swapping fittings, or even suits, during a match. I hope this isn't the case because the ability for me to swap suits/fittings for my next spawn adds a lot of depth in gameplay. I am also worried about MMR RNG, where your team's suit comp is vastly outmatched by the enemies suit comp without the ability to adapt. And I see that you want progression to be harder, but is it really going to be THAT much harder to always have to focus on one suit at a time? What will be the purpose of restricting some game types to certain meta level brackets, outside of newbie battles? If we can still swap fittings/suits in match, how are you going to stop someone capable of fitting a 350 meta level suit from queuing with a 120 suit and then swapping to their 350? One suggestion I have is you could make a list of 3-4 fittings you queue with and the MMR averages the meta level of those fittings, though that is still limiting compared to what DUST is like now.
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 283	Posted - 2014.06.11 17:34:00 - [729] - Quote Skylight Atoma wrote: Quote: You will have different contracts offered to you depending on your Dropsuit Meta Level. Basically, if you have 3 fittings with a 120, 200 and 350 Metalevel, you will have access to 3 different brackets where people will have the same Metalevel range as you. So, no Dropsuit will be obsolete. You will have access to non-match made battles, so basically you can pick any Dropsuit you want. So it sounds like you want to discourage swapping fittings, or even suits, during a match. I hope this isn't the case because the ability for me to swap suits/fittings for my next spawn adds a lot of depth in gameplay. I am also worried about MMR RNG, where your team's suit comp is vastly outmatched by the enemies suit comp without the ability to adapt. And I see that you want progression to be harder, but is it really going to be THAT much harder to always have to focus on one suit at a time? What will be the purpose of restricting some game types to certain meta level brackets, outside of newbie battles? If we can still swap fittings/suits in match, how are you going to stop someone capable of fitting a 350 meta level suit from queuing with a 120 suit and then swapping to their 350? One suggestion I have is you could make a list of 3-4 fittings you queue with and the MMR averages the meta level of those fittings, though that is still limiting compared to what DUST is like now. I think Wolfman have stated that they are looking into limiting the number of suites you can bring with you. If this is the case it has my full support, since I always disliked the idea of having your entire inventory in your pocket (halfway across the galaxy). This would mean you can swap suites during battle, but only to the small pool you have picked to bring with you. However, this has very little to do with the progression, and I am also interested in an progress update from CCP Z So, Z... Any progress of the skill tree? I am keeping a very open mind as we have seen a small piece so far. I would like to get your thoughts about how the proposed skill tree will work together with fitting and market options. It does not have to be a presentation of the full skill tree, but just a rough overview, perhaps with a noob example of a player's first steps in the game.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8761	Posted - 2014.06.11 18:11:00 - [730] - Quote Regis Blackbird wrote: Skylight Atoma wrote: Quote: You will have different contracts offered to you depending on your Dropsuit Meta Level. Basically, if you have 3 fittings with a 120, 200 and 350 Metalevel, you will have access to 3 different brackets where people will have the same Metalevel range as you. So, no Dropsuit will be obsolete. You will have access to non-match made battles, so basically you can pick any Dropsuit you want. So it sounds like you want to discourage swapping fittings, or even suits, during a match. I hope this isn't the case because the ability for me to swap suits/fittings for my next spawn adds a lot of depth in gameplay. I am also worried about MMR RNG, where your team's suit comp is vastly outmatched by the enemies suit comp without the ability to adapt. And I see that you want progression to be harder, but is it really going to be THAT much harder to always have to focus on one suit at a time? What will be the purpose of restricting some game types to certain meta level brackets, outside of newbie battles? If we can still swap fittings/suits in match, how are you going to stop someone capable of fitting a 350 meta level suit from queuing with a 120 suit and then swapping to their 350? One suggestion I have is you could make a list of 3-4 fittings you queue with and the MMR averages the meta level of those fittings, though that is still limiting compared to what DUST is like now. I think Wolfman have stated that they are looking into limiting the number of suites you can bring with you. If this is the case it has my full support, since I always disliked the idea of having your entire inventory in your pocket (halfway across the galaxy). This would mean you can swap suites during battle, but only to the small pool you have picked to bring with you. However, this has very little to do with the progression, and I am also interested in an progress update from CCP Z So, Z... Any progress of the skill tree? I am keeping a very open mind as we only have seen a very small piece so far. I would like to get your thoughts about how the proposed skill tree will work together with fitting and market options. It does not have to be a presentation of the full skill tree, but just a rough overview, perhaps with a noob example of a player's first steps in the game. This is very much true. In Eve Online, every player doesn't have immediate access to their entire inventory as all of their crap is scattered throughout the entire galaxy. The limited cargo hold for every ship is designed to only allow players to carry the ammunition that they need with some room to spare for looting wrecks when they go off alone in far-off places. But yeah, I am still interested in knowing what's the status of the progression that CCP Z proposed. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.

Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2585	Posted - 2014.06.12 02:58:00 - [731] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Regis Blackbird wrote: Skylight Atoma wrote: Quote: You will have different contracts offered to you depending on your Dropsuit Meta Level. Basically, if you have 3 fittings with a 120, 200 and 350 Metalevel, you will have access to 3 different brackets where people will have the same Metalevel range as you. So, no Dropsuit will be obsolete. You will have access to non-match made battles, so basically you can pick any Dropsuit you want. So it sounds like you want to discourage swapping fittings, or even suits, during a match. I hope this isn't the case because the ability for me to swap suits/fittings for my next spawn adds a lot of depth in gameplay. I am also worried about MMR RNG, where your team's suit comp is vastly outmatched by the enemies suit comp without the ability to adapt. And I see that you want progression to be harder, but is it really going to be THAT much harder to always have to focus on one suit at a time? What will be the purpose of restricting some game types to certain meta level brackets, outside of newbie battles? If we can still swap fittings/suits in match, how are you going to stop someone capable of fitting a 350 meta level suit from queuing with a 120 suit and then swapping to their 350? One suggestion I have is you could make a list of 3-4 fittings you queue with and the MMR averages the meta level of those fittings, though that is still limiting compared to what DUST is like now. I think Wolfman have stated that they are looking into limiting the number of suites you can bring with you. If this is the case it has my full support, since I always disliked the idea of having your entire inventory in your pocket (halfway across the galaxy). This would mean you can swap suites during battle, but only to the small pool you have picked to bring with you. However, this has very little to do with the progression, and I am also interested in an progress update from CCP Z So, Z... Any progress of the skill tree? I am keeping a very open mind as we only have seen a very small piece so far. I would like to get your thoughts about how the proposed skill tree will work together with fitting and market options. It does not have to be a presentation of the full skill tree, but just a rough overview, perhaps with a noob example of a player's first steps in the game. This is very much true. In Eve Online, every player doesn't have immediate access to their entire inventory as all of their crap is scattered throughout the entire galaxy. The limited cargo hold for every ship is designed to only allow players to carry the ammunition that they need with some room to spare for looting wrecks when they go off alone in far-off places. But yeah, I am still interested in knowing what's the status of the progression that CCP Z proposed. ^very much this. EDIT: I have like 20 stations with stuff in them. only like 4 has stuff I actually use........... click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8761	Posted - 2014.06.12 03:12:00 - [732] - Quote @Godin Oh please. I have at least 100 stations scattered throughout New Eden because I'm a market trader in Eve. Only three of those stations have things I actually use and they are all regions apart from each other. ;) On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2586	Posted - 2014.06.12 05:44:00 - [733] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: @Godin Oh please. I have at least 100 stations scattered throughout New Eden because I'm a market trader in Eve. Only three of those stations have things I actually use and they are all regions apart from each other. ;) If none of my ** blew up, I'd have far more. But alas, my ** does blow up after all click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Malkai Inos Any Given Day 1362	Posted - 2014.06.15 01:17:00 - [734] - Quote Last Dev post was 16 days ago. If nothing else, could we get a brief confirmation that work on this is still underway and the thread monitored? No specifics or time frames necessary (while appreciated). Just a small reassurance that someone is still assigned to this. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Godin Thekiller The Corporate Raiders 2607	Posted - 2014.06.15 02:27:00 - [735] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: byte modal wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: I just noticed... CCP Z has been awfully quiet ever since the recent bout of layoffs. Came here to bump a thread for more attention then realized uh... it's a sticky Wow. I don't know how to read that. I saw the article and then the layoff news. I honestly am at a loss as to what to think or feel since, ...on all of this. I just keep typing and backspacing here because nothing that comes out really holds the weight that I feel this topic deserves. Nor does this process help clear my head of random thoughts that usually comes from the forced organization required to translate those thoughts to another. Sure, I have been frustrated in the level of communication or lack of dialogue, but at the end of the day I get that it's not my game to build. I'll either enjoy the results or I will not. I will continue to hope for the best and see what comes. But if it's true that Z was part of the 49, wow. just wow. On a personal level, I hope not. On a more general level I can't help but think wtf, CCP? Sh!t rolls downhill. I've learned that in my employment, sure. But learning that should come with perspective along side that realization---perspective that management at any level should damn well know before daring to take the reigns of any project. Sh!t may roll on down that hill because it's just damn easier to blame "those... down there" than to accept responsibility for one's poor decisions, mismanagement, or blatant ignorance of a product and its production requirements and constraints, but until the later is corrected, that same sh!t will just continue rolling on and on and on.... no matter how many rounds of layoffs or staff replacements occur. I'm going to stop here out of fear of this turning into a rant, or worse, derailing this thread more than it has been already. Idunno, guys. Fingers cross and all that, I guess. For whatever it's worth, I've enjoyed reading most all of your posts (both player and dev alike) and being part of the conversations that I've put into, ever how minimal my part may be. Whether I agree with you or not, I respect and enjoy the debate. We'll see what comes then, yes? All the best, - me. Well, I just brought it up because of the shear coincidence I see here. Even though I have my disagreements with CCP Z on the issue of progression, I also personally don't want him to go as I want to give every Dev a chance to improve themselves. CCP Z did say he is taking in our feedback. I just want to see for myself if he really has changed his mind so far after the loooooooooong discussion we all just had. I remember seeing a interview with CCP Z showing that he still stuck to his ideas. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8769	Posted - 2014.06.15 17:48:00 - [736] - Quote @Godin Sounds like an old interview. I like to see him come over to this thread right here as soon as possible and tell us if he has changed his mind or not. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Godin Thekiller The Corporate Raiders 2613	Posted - 2014.06.15 20:04:00 - [737] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: @Godin Sounds like an old interview. I like to see him come over to this thread right here as soon as possible and tell us if he has changed his mind or not. I think it was like 10 days ago that I saw it. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8775	Posted - 2014.06.16 00:11:00 - [738] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: @Godin Sounds like an old interview. I like to see him come over to this thread right here as soon as possible and tell us if he has changed his mind or not. I think it was like 10 days ago that I saw it. Do you remember the link or at least the name of the website? On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Godin Thekiller The Corporate Raiders 2616	Posted - 2014.06.16 00:54:00 - [739] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: @Godin Sounds like an old interview. I like to see him come over to this thread right here as soon as possible and tell us if he has changed his mind or not. I think it was like 10 days ago that I saw it. Do you remember the link or at least the name of the website? Nope, I just remember that he said basically the same thing that he's been saying in this thread. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Malkai Inos Any Given Day 1363	Posted - 2014.06.16 00:59:00 - [740] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: @Godin Sounds like an old interview. I like to see him come over to this thread right here as soon as possible and tell us if he has changed his mind or not. I think it was like 10 days ago that I saw it. Do you remember the link or at least the name of the website? This is the most recent interview with CCP Z I could google fu and I faintly remember seeing it cited around here as evidence that he's committed on going ahead with his proposal despite community concerns. Having been released may 21st and thus seven days after his OP here in this thread would somewhat fit this narrative but only as long as you ignore the high possibility that the Interview itself was conducted before that. Every other interview with Rouge and/or Z was released within hours of each other on may 2nd and I can't find anything in this one indicating that cannot be just as old. I wouldn't resort to panic just yet based this alone if that's what Godin is referring to. I would however appreciate any life sign from CCP Z so we can rekindle this, arguably heated, dialogue. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...

Godin Thekiller The Corporate Raiders 2616	Posted - 2014.06.16 01:24:00 - [741] - Quote Malkai Inos wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: @Godin Sounds like an old interview. I like to see him come over to this thread right here as soon as possible and tell us if he has changed his mind or not. I think it was like 10 days ago that I saw it. Do you remember the link or at least the name of the website? This is the most recent interview with CCP Z I could google fu and I faintly remember seeing it cited around here as evidence that he's committed on going ahead with his proposal despite community concerns. Having been released may 21st and thus seven days after his OP here in this thread would somewhat fit this narrative but only as long as you ignore the high possibility that the Interview itself was conducted before that. Every other interview with Rouge and/or Z was released within hours of each other on may 2nd and I can't find anything in this one indicating that cannot be just as old. I wouldn't resort to panic just yet based this alone if that's what Godin is referring to. I would however appreciate any life sign from CCP Z so we can rekindle this, arguably heated, dialogue. Na, it wasn't that one, the wording is off. Also, the website had a white background. Anyways, nobody should panic anyways. Panic makes things go bad quickly. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A Dark Taboo 541	Posted - 2014.06.16 02:12:00 - [742] - Quote This one?
Malkai Inos Any Given Day 1363	Posted - 2014.06.16 02:22:00 - [743] - Quote Natu Nobilis wrote: This one? That interview is with CCP Rouge (Jean-Charles Gaudechon) and, later, Hilmar (-Veigar P+¬tursson). Not CCP Z (Julien Dulioust) and progression is only mentioned in passing. Relevant quote on progression I found: Eurogamer wrote: Player progression will be "heavily updated, heavily changed" from how it is in Dust, although it'll share roughly the same DNA. "It's one of the things that will have a lot of love on Project Legion," I'm told. That's seems like the entirety of it after a quick glance. Edit: Added real names because many interviews don't reference the CCP names. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Godin Thekiller The Corporate Raiders 2616	Posted - 2014.06.16 02:33:00 - [744] - Quote Malkai Inos wrote: Natu Nobilis wrote: This one? That interview is with CCP Rouge (Jean-Charles Gaudechon) and, later, Hilmar (-Veigar P+¬tursson). Not CCP Z (Julien Dulioust) and progression is only mentioned in passing. Relevant quote on progression I found: Eurogamer wrote: Player progression will be "heavily updated, heavily changed" from how it is in Dust, although it'll share roughly the same DNA. "It's one of the things that will have a lot of love on Project Legion," I'm told. That's seems like the entirety of it after a quick glance. Edit: Added real names because many interviews don't reference the CCP names. No, that's not it either, although I saw that, and I wasn't sure what to make of it. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Mary Sedillo Thunder's Throne 321	Posted - 2014.06.16 05:51:00 - [745] - Quote I am not asking for the same progression, but what is going to happen to our skillpoints?! The ones we were accumulating for near a year now?!
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2372	Posted - 2014.06.16 14:11:00 - [746] - Quote Mary Sedillo wrote: I am not asking for the same progression, but what is going to happen to our skillpoints?! The ones we were accumulating for near a year now?! Those should be transferring https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2182657#post2182657 Also: I'd love an update on the state of intent/design with regards to the progression system in Legion. We've had a lot of conversation on the subject and an update in status ah la CCP Rattatis hotfix 'patch notes' would be a real asset at this point. Cheers, Cross Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar Silver Bullet Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 670	Posted - 2014.06.17 21:48:00 - [747] - Quote wtf stupid ass skill system chages to fix something that aint broken
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8781	Posted - 2014.06.17 22:46:00 - [748] - Quote Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote: wtf stupid ass skill system chages to fix something that aint broken Not exactly true. The current skill system in Dust 514 IS BROKEN in some way. For example, everyone knows there are skill books that are nothing more than SP sinks and serve no purpose but to just get in the way. Another problem is inconsistencies such as why nova knives don't have a fitting optimization skill while all other weapons have one. Some useful skills even have useless levels of their own. Overall the Dust skill progression needs plenty of work. However, this doesn't mean that I agree with CCP Z's idea. I just want the current problems to be addressed. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 10719	Posted - 2014.06.17 22:59:00 - [749] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote: wtf stupid ass skill system chages to fix something that aint broken Not exactly true. The current skill system in Dust 514 IS BROKEN in some way. For example, everyone knows there are skill books that are nothing more than SP sinks and serve no purpose but to just get in the way. Another problem is inconsistencies such as why nova knives don't have a fitting optimization skill while all other weapons have one. Some useful skills even have useless levels of their own. Overall the Dust skill progression needs plenty of work. However, this doesn't mean that I agree with CCP Z's idea. I just want the current problems to be addressed. I am more inclined to suggest that CCP takes more of a leaf from the book of their EVE skill system. Its expansive, robust, and requires players sink time into it, earning core skills early on, developing into specific roles, and then being able to reasonably easily add other specialisation of the same ship size, class, etc into their repertoire. More emphasis of investment of SP into skills. In my mind it would be more easy for CCP to also address tiering issues by reflecting the same Tier system and meta level variations used in EVE, where efficiency is the only thing separating the items effects. "You are weak Ouryon....weakness serves not the Empire. I shall teach you strength." -Yurius of the Brutor to Ouryon
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8795	Posted - 2014.06.21 04:02:00 - [750] - Quote Um, CCP Z? Are you currently busy? If you're alive, please post. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.

Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1408	Posted - 2014.06.21 23:43:00 - [751] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Um, CCP Z? Are you currently busy? If you're alive, please post. https://twitter.com/ccp_z/status/479953748681162752 CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
John Psi Vacuum Cleaner. LLC Steel Balls Alliance 807	Posted - 2014.06.23 15:06:00 - [752] - Quote Soooo... Sorry for bad English =) >>> Legion rdy! <<<
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1412	Posted - 2014.06.23 21:53:00 - [753] - Quote John Psi wrote: Soooo... https://twitter.com/ccp_rouge/status/481103798073434112 CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8803	Posted - 2014.06.23 22:13:00 - [754] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: John Psi wrote: Soooo... https://twitter.com/ccp_rouge/status/481103798073434112 What is CCP Rouge saying there? On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Malkai Inos Any Given Day 1442	Posted - 2014.06.24 04:39:00 - [755] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Kevall Longstride wrote: John Psi wrote: Soooo... https://twitter.com/ccp_rouge/status/481103798073434112 What is CCP Rouge saying there? Probably that CCP Z couldn't get the pics out (which he didn't, even accounting for time-zones at this point) but not because Rouge didn't allow for it (since he feels let down himself). You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...

CCP Z C C P C C P Alliance 137	Posted - 2014.06.24 10:19:00 - [756] - Quote Hello, And sorry for not giving any answer for quite a while, but as you can see in my other thread, Market has been my focus for the past couple of months (and a lot of secret other stuff of course!). Basically, a lot of good points were made during this discussion and I had some long chats regarding the Progression System. I looked at all the different proposal, our vision for what the Progression for Legion should be evolved a lot since Fanfest. So a lot of changes will be made from the presentation I made. Even though we want to change the way Progression was in DUST, we still want to keep some important mechanics you guys love. So for now, I will close this Thread and get back to you as soon as we have the Progression 2.0 Design. Thanks a lot for all your Feedback, it helps us a lot making the right choice for our game. Z Monetization and Progression Producer -CCP Z



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