-snip'ish-

...
Change can be good in the right context. Growing pains are natural in the life of an ever evolving universe such as New Eden. Can we as a community accept another radical change? Especially to a system that yes, may be flawed in some way, but not enough to do a complete overhaul. So much time and effort is being put into something that doesn't really seem to be an issue for a lot of the players coming forward.

You and I of all people should know better then most. We both have spent well over a year interacting with new players. Countless hours talking and testing. Literally crunching numbers and putting in the time to get real feedback from new players and their concerns about things. Very rarely was the idea of the skill tree being overly complicated ever brought to our attention.

I think a lot of what upsets people is that we are seeing the cycle starting all over again and Legion hasn't even been green lite. Devs have grandiose ideas and ask for feedback on a product we haven't even really seen outside of a power point slide. Like I said before. It isn't even going to matter much since CCP Z has a idea of how he wants things to work. It doesn't really matter if we agree with what he is doing. It is happening. Nothing will change that outcome.

Where does this leave us? In the same exact situation that cause the community to start getting upset in the first place. Lots of Devs posting and it looks sweet and feels good to see the blue tags, but the communication is jaded and more of a distraction while CCP get their stuff in order.

We don't want to be so toxic CCP. We want to help you make a game that people will enjoy for years to come. You have the best opportunity to collaborate with a community that is painfully loyal. Please, guys...seriously.....please...listen to what your community is telling you. We are trying to break down the walls of CCP to create something amazing. Allow that to happen.

I will defer to posts in this thread by Kigurosaka Laaksonen for how I see the current skill system and in what direction we should be headed.

I would like to stress that transparency is critical. I've been here since Mordu's Private Trials and watched many slow motion train wrecks that were accurately predicted and entirely preventable had we of had better communication between the devs and the community. If I can reduce the failures of Dust 514 to a single word, it is arrogance.

Please take the extra time to clearly present your plans. It is in your best interest.

The only things any dev needs to understand about Dust and Legion is that this is not another FPS, and that if you try to make it one it will surely be to the detriment of the entire community. CCP has created a very loyal and invested community on the dream of a complex thinking man's shooter where choices matter and actions have consequence. We are all here for that single reason.

No one claimed EVEGÇÖs skill tree was perfect and perfect is the wrong word to use in this instance. Implying itGÇÖs GÇÿdivinely perfectGÇÖ is certainly out of place. It is, however, very functional. Tweaks like taking out Learning skills were done after a few yearGÇÖs experience showed they werenGÇÖt needed. The skills were removed and attributes were increased so there was almost no net change in SP/hr. The ends (total SP/hr) were justified, the means (Learning skills vs. higher base attributes and remaps) needs work.
For Drone skills, thatGÇÖs an entirely subjective tweak being done to bring drones in line with other weapons. Drones are broken for a few reason, the UI and AI being a few, but the skill tree is not one of them.


Lastly, there is another argument people are making: "Dust/Legion should be EVE, but on the planets. And thus we should be mimicking EVE's gameplay as much as possible."
This is obviously related to the above statement, but comes at it from the angle of gameplay as opposed to the skill-tree.
As such, I'll respond to it from a different angle.

Allow me to be straightforward:
EVE is an amazing sandbox,
with battles where thousands of players led by gods tear away at each other,
filled with spying, politics and altruism,
where your cunning and ambition shape your future as much as any character stats you may have.
EVE is a glorious story-engine with one teeny-tiny problem:
It is not fun to play.

Do you want Planetary Conquest 2.0 to be a 5 hour POS grind?
Do you want PvE to be so simplistic many people bot it with trivial programs?
Do you want to have to run two accounts at once to have access to basic reconnaissance?
Do you want Dust to also become the "game you play while you're doing something else"?
Should Dust be "Spreadsheets on Planets"?

This is ridiculous. EVE is fun to play. ThatGÇÖs the only reason I play it. Also, this is yet another misrepresentation of the argument. I never said DUST (Legion?) should be EVE but on planets. I said DUST should mirror EVE as much as is suitable in an FPS environment.


If you think that sounds great then you know what? That's fine!
Only you know what you find fun. No one can tell you otherwise. :)
But here's the thing, that game already exists, it's called EVE Online.
EVE is very, very, very good at being EVE.

But if you want a sandbox/MMO/FPS, well we're going to have build that.
And since no other game has done that, we'll have to invent.
Which means iteration.

There are sandbox MMOFPSs. One example that comes to mind is Firefall. ItGÇÖs not so good. Those guys are really going it on their own. ItGÇÖs theyGÇÖre first and only IP. They donGÇÖt have amazing opportunities and experiences gained from an incredibly successful 10yr old IP. We donGÇÖt have to GÇÿinventGÇÖ a tier system that is balanced for new and old players. EVE has already invented it. We donGÇÖt have to GÇÿinventGÇÖ an economy where the goods are mainly player manufactured. EVE has already invented it.
Of course thereGÇÖs room to improve, such as PvE. But EVEGÇÖs setting and DUSTGÇÖs (LegionGÇÖs?) setting will lend themselves to massively different PvE. No one is saying copy and paste EVE to DUST. But what if instead of public contracts, we had to accept PvE, PvP, or mixed PvE / PvP missions (we could even still call them contracts) from agents in a station?


Which means occasionally tearing down the old and replacing it with the new.

Our present skill system works.
But by no means does it work well.

Let's find something that does. :)

EVE built on a solid foundation. It was never torn down and rebuilt fresh. The skill system and ship class system is largely the same.
Our present skill system DOES NOT WORK. Our present game DOES NOT WORK WELL. Being more like EVE would solve that.

Adding a dust version of ISIS, certificates, explanations...

That's three layers of extra UI you've just added (which takes resources) and adds more stuff to read through before gaining the clarity you crave.

There is an admission by some that the old system needs 're-done but better' but there is a point I think we can all agree, where there is so much to redo, its actually better to just start again. We've had the current system for over a year and numbers haven't grown.

This will remain the case in Legion, for different reasons:
You will have different contracts offered to you depending on your Dropsuit Meta Level. Basically, if you have 3 fittings with a 120, 200 and 350 Metalevel, you will have access to 3 different brackets where people will have the same Metalevel range as you. So, no Dropsuit will be obsolete. You will have access to non-match made battles, so basically you can pick any Dropsuit you want.

Again, the nature of Legion is to work against Gear obsolescence, so your old gear will still have an interest for you after unlocking the GÇ£nextGÇ¥ Dropsuit in your tree. You donGÇÖt have to move in a linear way (ie, by going directly to the next Dropsuit). We will offer you many side choices that will make you more efficient or have more fitting choices with your current Dropsuit.

We will offer a Respec Option (which does not exist in DUST 514). More information will come down the line as the projectGÇÖs development progresses.

If you look at the tree that I showed during the presentation, basic weapons for all classes will be available early in the progression so you will be able to try them fairly easily (or quickly if you prefer). But yes, we are making the Progression more difficult. Right now, within a couple of weeks of play, you can basically create your ultimate Fitting and never do anything else.

I donGÇÖt necessarily agree with the EVE example, it remains a really difficult progression system to understand. Legion is not and will not be EVE, even if both games share the same universe. We have many reasons justifying that choice: we are not the same business model (subscription vs free to play), we are not talking to the same target audience (hardcore MMO players vs Online FPS Players). That isnGÇÖt to say that their progression system isnGÇÖt great and applicable to EVE GÇô only that it does not necessarily fit the game we want Project Legion to become.
I think that the new system will allow both: accessibility for new users to understand, while keeping the high level complexity of mix-matching modules, weapons and Dropsuits.

So are we back to Legion being a Lobby shooter?

You've not met Hilmar have you?

Personally - I could not give a damn on the specifics of how progression works as long as...

A. Its more clear for new guys to understand - but it does not restrict me as a player more familiar with the game.

B. I still always want to grind those skillpoints to unlock better and better stuff.

C. I do agree in DUST it has been very easy to unlock things. In EVE it does take a lot longer to have access to all of this good stuff. So I dont mind you guys making things a little more difficult.

D. PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD - make every skill point / every skill level up give us some tangible benefit.

In dust right now we have many skill levels that either do [1] Nothing at all or [2] just unlock accesses to another level to unlock until you finally get something.

Please make every 'level up' or every batch of skillpoints spent give a tangible benefit.

Kevall answered this pretty well:


Godin, the proposed solution of fixing the nastiest of the problems with the present system, then adding an ISIS and/or Certificate system on top of it to explain good skill combinations to new players has merit. But it also carries some strong costs. Main one being that a new player will have to figure out ISIS/Certificates before they can use them to figure out skills. :\

I suspect "simply" (heavy quotes) designing the skill-tree in a way that fundamentally encourages good use of SP would make for a more user friendly system. :)

So I ask again: How is restricting players for newcomers and/or idiots a better idea than keeping everything free and explaining it all?

Not in person, no.

Though if I was in charge of a company I wouldn't want my producer crapping on its products.

We will offer a Respec Option (which does not exist in DUST 514). More information will come down the line as the projectGÇÖs development progresses.

If a respect option is "the solution" for changing directions this new system is already broken. So what you're saying is I'll either need insanely more SP to diversify my class / fittings, or I'll need to respec every time I want to change classes. I have seen this in other games, and nothing is worse than hearing "hold on I need to respec into x".

This. The mark of a good progression system, IMO, should be that no respecs of any sort are necessary. I put up with them in Dust thus far with the understanding that when all planned equipment and skills were hammered out they would stop. Hearing you plan to offer them in Legion right from the get-go tells me the system must be (at least a little bit) deeply flawed or you wouldn't let us have them.

Agreed. As long as you give new players in the academy a chance to try out every suit, weapon, module, and vehicle before they graduate and present them with the proper tools to understand the skill progression (ISIS) then there would be no need to implement a respec.

PS: Didn't CCP say earlier they were reluctant to give out respecs?