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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 28 post(s)
Fenix Alexarr BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 116	Posted - 2014.05.15 08:04:00 - [211] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: Don't try to defend CCP Z, or we may start disliking you, too. His post was effectively made up of factual statements. And regardless, he's entitled to defend whomever he wants. PS. I <3 CCP Z and props to you devs. The odd hours that are going on in this thread... That all being said, we know that you are wanting to get away from the current system. We're telling you as respectfully as possible that this new way of progressing through a game isn't new. It's been tried and true in games that are not in line with what CCP has stated as their long term goals. Listen to us or don't. We're all just spouting opinions and defending ideas that may not ever see the light of day... This entire thread has been nothing but talking about how SP and 5 levels of skills is beneficial to the game as a whole when stacked up against games like COD and BFx. Fix the NPE and the bonuses associated with the current skilling and item system and you will have a recipe for success on the the PC. If that's all you take from this, the game will be far better off for it. It's not like we're trying to attack Z personally. It's this idea that Eve/Dust is doing it so wrong that most people here are attacking. On the list of things that need fixed for a PC release, that is literally at the bottom of the list. Focus on providing a better wrapper for this candy of a skill system and you will have more, longer-term players flock to you than you know what to do with.
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1578	Posted - 2014.05.15 08:07:00 - [212] - Quote Yeah, in all seriousness, this new progression system that CCP Z presented is really not good. You should be moving as far away from typical FPS games as possible, and in a way that promotes creativity. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
Grimmiers 544	Posted - 2014.05.15 08:09:00 - [213] - Quote Will there be certain skills that are shared between Different trees to alleviate jumping around for skills that you know would help your playstyle? For instance a scout and a logi would possibly want to have a increased hacking speed skill. Will they share the same skill upgrade if you unlock it on one path, or would they be separate bonuses tied to that tree/dropsuit. I see what you're going for, but I want to get a picture of how flexible the new system will be. I heard you mention wild card skills as well which to me sounds like an planned aurum option.
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1305	Posted - 2014.05.15 08:10:00 - [214] - Quote There are three Dev's currently following this thread in real time. If that is not a statement of serious intent.... CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Samael Artico Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 115	Posted - 2014.05.15 08:31:00 - [215] - Quote EVE has a better NPE than DUST 514. Just felt like pointing that out.
Funkmaster Whale Ancient Exiles. 2253	Posted - 2014.05.15 08:35:00 - [216] - Quote I am going to go ahead and agree that the new system seems kind of bogus to me. It seems to stray towards streamlining roles into "classes" via the tree thing. The current system in DUST is awesome just like EVE's system is awesome. The biggest problem is that it just lacks information. Seriously, you could just add a separate tab on each skill that says "Items Unlocked" or something that would tell you which items are unlocked at which level. CCP Z I believe mentioned this as one of the issues with the current system. The same goes with other aspects of the skill system. If there were more immediate and adequate resources provided to the player to understand the information it would go a long way in understanding how the game works. Right now there's nothing in DUST itself that explains damage-types, shield/armor discrepancies, weapon efficincies, scanning related things, etc. A game as compelling as DUST needs some sort of Glossary or Compendium that explains things to the players that they would like to learn more about. It DOESN'T need to be dumbed down and simplified into trees and "Click here to advance!" type skills. I would really hate to see DUST turn into a game that holds the player's hand. "Skill requirements" are one thing, but tiered tree-type skilling is really lame to be honest. Complete freedom is the way to go. Follow me on Twitch.tv!
Syeven Reed G0DS AM0NG MEN 639	Posted - 2014.05.15 08:36:00 - [217] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: I'm obviously joking. No one would ever dislike someone for such a petty reason. ...usually. You'd be surprised! Internet spaceships are serious business. We don't fly spaceships.... Twitter MajLagSpike CPM Application
Negris Albedo Nuevo Atlas Corporation 60	Posted - 2014.05.15 08:37:00 - [218] - Quote Perhaps CCP could take some inspiration for this.
Pseudogenesis Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 178	Posted - 2014.05.15 08:39:00 - [219] - Quote CCP Blowout wrote: I for one would hate to be called names by strangers on the Internet. Well, that's because you're a doodoo head. Stabby-stabber extraordinaire
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1580	Posted - 2014.05.15 08:41:00 - [220] - Quote Pseudogenesis wrote: CCP Blowout wrote: I for one would hate to be called names by strangers on the Internet. Well, that's because you're a doodoo head. Ooooooh! Sick burn, man. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.

Celus Ivara DUST University Ivy League 192	Posted - 2014.05.15 08:48:00 - [221] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: CCP Z wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: I strongly suggest that EVE: Legion adopt a progression system that mirrors EVE Online. I don't see why not. And I am strongly working doing the opposite for the reasons stated 20 times in this thread :) Take EVE's progression system, mirror it, then streamline it. Now, create an analogue to ISIS for players to use. Congratulations, you now have a system that is easy to understand as well as non-restrictive. Can you find any flaws in my logic? (A note: My apologies at quoting you Ulysses, I'm actually addressing many people at once with this post.) Firstly if I may, the skill tree we're using in Dust has some deep intrinsic problems in it. It makes sense to us because we've been using it for the last year, but it is hyper unintuitive to the new player. And, iIt's more than just Dropsuit Command doing nothing at level 5. -Some skills unlock gear at 1/3/5. -Others unlock gear at 1/2/3/4/5. -Some skills give buffs to gear (confusingly called "efficacy"), in addition to unlocking gear. -There's "core skills" that give universal buffs to suits. -"Hacking" gives universal buffs, while ALSO unlocking gear. -Skills exist that have no purpose other than unlocking other skills. -"Which of these 4 shield skills is the one that gives me more health?" -To figure out what an item is you have to leave the skill menu, enter the Market, press the secret "Show Info" button, and toggle out of the flavor text to the attributes. Yes. Our present skill tree "works". But by no means does it "work well". I know it's counter-intuitive, but user-friendly and deep are not mutually exclusive things. There is a difference between bad-complexity and good-complexity. Secondly, many here are making the argument: "The present skill tree is EVE's skill-tree, and EVE's skill-tree is perfect so why are we changing it?" There's two parts to this argument so let's break it down: 1: "The present skill-tree is EVE's skill-tree,..." Actually it's not. EVE's system relies upon Attributes, implants, neural remaps, solely Passive learning of a specific skill, subscriptions, and EVE bonuses are granted by the Ships after checking the Skill level while Dust bonuses are granted by the Skill to the Dropsuits (which sounds like the same thing, but is different and subtly causes massive issues for balancing), ...to name but a few. Just as I've taught many FPS players how the Dust skill-tree works, I've also taught EVE players how Dust works and they've been just as confused. 2: "... EVE's skill-tree is perfect so why are we changing it?" EVE's skill-tree was not pulled from the Ark of the Covenant. Nor is it Euler's Identity, nor a pyrite crystal. It's a "messy" solution cobbled together by human hands in response to a very specific problem. It has had both in the past (eg: Learning Skills) and today (eg: Drone Skills) many issues. It is not an immaculate solution to a shared problem. Lastly, there is another argument people are making: "Dust/Legion should be EVE, but on the planets. And thus we should be mimicking EVE's gameplay as much as possible." This is obviously related to the above statement, but comes at it from the angle of gameplay as opposed to the skill-tree. As such, I'll respond to it from a different angle. Allow me to be straightforward: EVE is an amazing sandbox, with battles where thousands of players led by gods tear away at each other, filled with spying, politics and altruism, where your cunning and ambition shape your future as much as any character stats you may have. EVE is a glorious story-engine with one teeny-tiny problem: It is not fun to play. Do you want Planetary Conquest 2.0 to be a 5 hour POS grind? Do you want PvE to be so simplistic many people bot it with trivial programs? Do you want to have to run two accounts at once to have access to basic reconnaissance? Do you want Dust to also become the "game you play while you're doing something else"? Should Dust be "Spreadsheets on Planets"? If you think that sounds great then you know what? That's fine! Only you know what you find fun. No one can tell you otherwise. :) But here's the thing, that game already exists, it's called EVE Online. EVE is very, very, very good at being EVE. But, if you want a sandbox/MMO/FPS, well we're going to have build that. And since no other game has done that, we'll have to invent. Which means iteration. Which means occasionally tearing down the old and replacing it with the new. Our present skill system works. But by no means does it work well. Let's find something that does. :) Supporting Kevall Longstride, CEO of DUST University, for CPM1
jenza aranda BetaMax. 3305	Posted - 2014.05.15 08:52:00 - [222] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: I'm obviously joking. No one would ever dislike someone for such a petty reason. ...usually. You'd be surprised! Internet spaceships are serious business. There are internet spaceships in dust now? :P Dust 514 101 // Dust 514 Wiki

CCP Saberwing C C P C C P Alliance 4654	Posted - 2014.05.15 08:53:00 - [223] - Quote Celus Ivara wrote: Insert long post here. Loved this. I agree completely. CCP Saberwing // DUST 514 Community Manager // @kanafchian

DIXI Flatline Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 3	Posted - 2014.05.15 08:53:00 - [224] - Quote ... hmmm.... thinking..... please hold the line..... thinking... Okay .... so what roadmap do we have here. What I have seen in the videos, we have a functional Grafik engine. We have some Maps and we could play on the PC. Give us an server with a five simple classes. and give us the option to fit our chars. You want to built up a vision with us, so lets do this and we start all with ALPHA 0.1 :-) I think nobody need a skill tree in the first time. First we need some fun and action :-). So I hope I made my point. ps.: sorry for my English, I am a natural german speaker. DIXI Flatline - Austrian EvE Community - ingame: =Österreich= -

CCP Saberwing C C P C C P Alliance 4654	Posted - 2014.05.15 08:53:00 - [225] - Quote jenza aranda wrote: There are internet spaceships in dust now? :P Well, there are MCCs! Bah, forum-nerds. CCP Saberwing // DUST 514 Community Manager // @kanafchian

Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1580	Posted - 2014.05.15 08:55:00 - [226] - Quote Celus Ivara wrote: snip Holy freakin' crap, that's a lot of text. Not to mention most of it is wrong. Please shorten your post and I'll consider debating it. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
Argo Filch Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 75	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:00:00 - [227] - Quote All this discussion about progression! i`m so psyched and really looking forward to playing EVE: "Candy Crush" Legion. So shut up and take my money already!
Celus Ivara DUST University Ivy League 193	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:01:00 - [228] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: Celus Ivara wrote: Insert long post here. Loved this. I agree completely. Aaaand I put it at the tail end of a page; no one will see it now. Supporting Kevall Longstride, CEO of DUST University, for CPM1
Leeroy Gannarsein Shining Flame Amarr Empire 92	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:03:00 - [229] - Quote Okay, I have one question for CCP. I am not generally opposed to the proposed progression system. I have no issues with being forced to skill up multiple suits to use a particular combination of gear - at the moment of writing I've two proto large turrets for a fully specced HAV, five or six proto weapons of varying sizes, a proto Assault, a proto Logi, a level 4 Sentinel (would be five only I've got heaps of AUR suits from the faction packs and from the Mauler event) and I'm currently skilling up a scout frame. I'm very diversified, and I don't see it as a problem. It's inevitable with the design of the skill tree even in DUST - eventually you run out of things to skill, so you start a new build. But I do have one question, still, and it may even be a problem. How are modules going to be accessed? If I want to tank an Assault suit, do I need to spec Sentinels first? If I want to fit repairers to my Sentinel, do I need to skill Logistics? Obviously I've no idea what modules would go where, but the general idea is there. It would be very bad for the NPE if to make basic customisation of your dropsuit you were required to skill multiple frame sizes. I have 41M SP. Most people don't. If you can wrangle it so that modules (or at least general modules like armour, shields and damage) are not tied to a frame... Well. Then I, for one, welcome our new CCP Overlords. AND ALSO I AGREE WITH CELUS MY ACTUAL NAME IS LORHAK It would seem like wisdom, but for the warning in my heart... CCP BLOWOUT FOR CPM1
Aoena Rays Bragian Order Amarr Empire 459	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:03:00 - [230] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: Holy freakin' crap, that's a lot of text. Not to mention most of it is wrong. Please shorten your post and I'll consider debating it. Way to be a douche towards people that actually analyze things rationally. Good contribution to the thread indeed. Thanks! CCP Rouge confirms your stuff will be moved from DUST to LEGION. Stop stupid biomassing.

Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1580	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:04:00 - [231] - Quote Celus Ivara wrote: CCP Saberwing wrote: Celus Ivara wrote: Insert long post here. Loved this. I agree completely. Aaaand I put it at the tail end of a page; no one will see it now. Good. It's an eyesore. Aoena Rays wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: Holy freakin' crap, that's a lot of text. Not to mention most of it is wrong. Please shorten your post and I'll consider debating it. Way to be a douche towards people that actually analyze things rationally. Good contribution to the thread indeed. Thanks! What? I said "please". I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
Celus Ivara DUST University Ivy League 193	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:05:00 - [232] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: Celus Ivara wrote: snip Holy freakin' crap, that's a lot of text. Not to mention most of it is wrong. Please shorten your post and I'll consider debating it. I put a lot of effort into formatting it. It's not that hard to read. Supporting Kevall Longstride, CEO of DUST University, for CPM1
Leeroy Gannarsein Shining Flame Amarr Empire 92	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:05:00 - [233] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: Celus Ivara wrote: snip Holy freakin' crap, that's a lot of text. Not to mention most of it is wrong. Please shorten your post and I'll consider debating it. Ulysses Knapse wrote: Be careful. If you start defending CCP Z, we may start disliking you, too. You are a good debater. (Was that too flame-y? I'll delete it if it was... ) MY ACTUAL NAME IS LORHAK It would seem like wisdom, but for the warning in my heart... CCP BLOWOUT FOR CPM1
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1580	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:09:00 - [234] - Quote Celus Ivara wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: Celus Ivara wrote: snip Holy freakin' crap, that's a lot of text. Not to mention most of it is wrong. Please shorten your post and I'll consider debating it. I put a lot of effort into formatting it. It's not that hard to read. You quoted me even though you weren't addressing me alone. Why should I read such an overly long post when I can't even tell which parts of your argument are engaging me and which parts are not? I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
Leeroy Gannarsein Shining Flame Amarr Empire 92	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:11:00 - [235] - Quote Celus Ivara wrote: CCP Saberwing wrote: Celus Ivara wrote: Insert long post here. Loved this. I agree completely. Aaaand I put it at the tail end of a page; no one will see it now. I saved it :) MY ACTUAL NAME IS LORHAK It would seem like wisdom, but for the warning in my heart... CCP BLOWOUT FOR CPM1
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1306	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:13:00 - [236] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: Celus Ivara wrote: Insert long post here. Loved this. I agree completely. Agreed. Boss post there Celus, o7 CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1580	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:14:00 - [237] - Quote Honestly, is this the time of day that all the CCP apologists come out? I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
Celus Ivara DUST University Ivy League 201	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:19:00 - [238] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: Celus Ivara wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: Celus Ivara wrote: snip Holy freakin' crap, that's a lot of text. Not to mention most of it is wrong. Please shorten your post and I'll consider debating it. I put a lot of effort into formatting it. It's not that hard to read. You quoted me even though you weren't addressing me alone. Why should I read such an overly long post when I can't even tell which parts of your argument are engaging me and which parts are not? I get the confusion. As I said, I wasn't so much addressing you as I am a broad collection of issues that many in this thread are working on. I needed a pull-quote to summerize them and your's was rather on point so I chose that one. :) I get that when one is quoted like that, it comes off as a gauntlet being thrown down. Not my intention on a personal level. :) That said though, given that I was trying to help us parse the issues Progressions faces, if you have any thoughts on those issues I'd like to hear them. You said: "Not to mention most of it is wrong." Which parts? :) Supporting Kevall Longstride, CEO of DUST University, for CPM1
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2096	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:19:00 - [239] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: Celus Ivara wrote: Insert long post here. Loved this. I agree completely. Players make long posts when issues matter to them. There are a lot of solid arguments in this thread, with players and fully explaining their motivations and concerns. PSN: RationalSpark
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 13275	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:20:00 - [240] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: Honestly, is this the time of day that all the CCP apologists come out? Ulysses, you are repeatedly refusing to debate entirely rational points by bitching about the people disagreeing with you and evading their points as much as you can. If you are not ready to discuss this in a civil fashion, you should get out of this thread. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.



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DIXI Flatline - Austrian EvE Community - ingame: =Österreich= -