DUST Search - Sticky:[DISCUSSION]

Maken Tosch wrote:

Captain Crutches wrote:

Cyrus Militani wrote:

If a respect option is "the solution" for changing directions this new system is already broken. So what you're saying is I'll either need insanely more SP to diversify my class / fittings, or I'll need to respec every time I want to change classes. I have seen this in other games, and nothing is worse than hearing "hold on I need to respec into x".

This. The mark of a good progression system, IMO, should be that no respecs of any sort are necessary. I put up with them in Dust thus far with the understanding that when all planned equipment and skills were hammered out they would stop. Hearing you plan to offer them in Legion right from the get-go tells me the system must be (at least a little bit) deeply flawed or you wouldn't let us have them.

Agreed. As long as you give new players in the academy a chance to try out every suit, weapon, module, and vehicle before they graduate and present them with the proper tools to understand the skill progression (ISIS) then there would be no need to implement a respec.

PS: Didn't CCP say earlier they were reluctant to give out respecs?

You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 28 post(s)
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1332	Posted - 2014.05.16 03:41:00 - [1] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Captain Crutches wrote: Cyrus Militani wrote: If a respect option is "the solution" for changing directions this new system is already broken. So what you're saying is I'll either need insanely more SP to diversify my class / fittings, or I'll need to respec every time I want to change classes. I have seen this in other games, and nothing is worse than hearing "hold on I need to respec into x". This. The mark of a good progression system, IMO, should be that no respecs of any sort are necessary. I put up with them in Dust thus far with the understanding that when all planned equipment and skills were hammered out they would stop. Hearing you plan to offer them in Legion right from the get-go tells me the system must be (at least a little bit) deeply flawed or you wouldn't let us have them. Agreed. As long as you give new players in the academy a chance to try out every suit, weapon, module, and vehicle before they graduate and present them with the proper tools to understand the skill progression (ISIS) then there would be no need to implement a respec. PS: Didn't CCP say earlier they were reluctant to give out respecs? I think they called them "disruptive" for the game and community just during EVE Vegas. I will also agree that "needs respecs to work" ought to be an instant disqualifier when it comes to designing a progression system. Not only do they not fit into New Eden from a conceptual standpoint. The potential for negative impact on balance, retention and the EVE/Legion economy have been discussed ad nauseam in this forum so it troubles me to see it suggested in passing just like that. It's like a new and improved sports car model that also happens to ship with an unreliable engine. That's why a pair of horses is included in the price in case of the inevitable engine failure: They introduce their own set of requirements and risks, they don't fit in with the product you're shipping and they really should not be necessary in the first place. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1335	Posted - 2014.05.16 13:28:00 - [2] - Quote CCP Z wrote: Kevall Longstride wrote: Item and Variation discussion. Think about it this way: there will be no market in the way it has been implemented on PS3. All items have to be looted from our scavenging/pve/wild pvp areas and then traded between players. Again, no weapon or module will be available for AURUM or give you any type of leapfrogging through the Progression. Basically, all variations of an item will have the same Metalevel but variations will be a little better in terms of performance . So, wait. Are there plans to introduce any kind of industry/production/invention, be it through the EVE/Legion connection or as a self sufficient profession for Legion players? You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1336	Posted - 2014.05.17 02:03:00 - [3] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: [...]They've researched and identified with their own numbers short comings in the current system, both in the progression system and the NPE. Questioning the findings of the research because it happens to not agree with your view isn't going to alter the Dev teams trust in its findings either. Besides, I think we can all agree, that nearly everyone on this thread, defending Z or not has highlighted shortcomings in the current system. [...] I happen to question them because we know nothing substantial about this research other than the claim of it's existence and the assertion that the proposed system is a sensible response to its findings. Yes, the current system isn't perfect but that doesn't mean that the proposed system is the only, let alone optimal, alternative. We have no idea what they've been looking for, we don't know how they decided to look, we don't know what they've found and, most critically, we don't know how their findings ended up informing the proposed design other than the blunt assertion that people cannot handle the current system. This is important because, as several others have pointed out, assuming the research was sound and accepting CCP Z's et al. stated conclusion still doesn't tell us why a visual guiding frame (ISIS) wrapped around the current system, or really anything else that doesn't change the actual progression on any fundamental level, wouldn't work Also well elaborated in multiple posts is the fact that central concepts such as "no respecs" being the default position, players having full freedom of their skill choices without being soft-locked into arbitrary roles and the full distinction between your character and whatever gear he might be using at any given time are discarded, seemingly, without further consideration of their inherent place within the existing universe that is New Eden. Based on that. The proposed changes require some prior justification that goes beyond "95% of the people don't get it". Providing insight as to what this research is all about would be a reasonable first step. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1339	Posted - 2014.05.17 18:57:00 - [4] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Cross Atu wrote: All of that being said, a one time only free respec coming out of the Academy seems reasonable, as does the occasional allowance of SP reallocation in the face of any total skill tree overhaul/the outright removal of specific skills, but such cases should be vanishingly rare and certainly not a planned recurring feature. 0.02 ISK Cross This I agree. A one-time respec after graduating from the Academy should be the extent of it. 2-5 million SP seems to be the common metric everyone is going by for this case. I actually think 2-5M SP of Academy as we know it carries the risk of "ADV-stomping" if you will. Let's remember that accruing 1,5M SP takes the better part of your first month unless you consistently cap out/boost. That's the critical first weeks during which players develop basic muscle memory, get a first STD/ADV fitting and get an overall grasp on tactics/teamplay. These few weeks can create a quite significant power disparity to the detriment of the newest players so the academy should really not extend beyond a few days average playtime or have very stringent metalevel limitations so that players are at least very closely matched with equally geared players. That's where i think the metalevel concept can and ought to shine. Assuming SP buildup works identical to how it does right now, which it most likely won't of course. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Any Given Day 1340	Posted - 2014.05.18 23:45:00 - [5] - Quote Starfire Revo wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Perhaps they aren't scubs then if they figured out an optimal way. But as you and me have seen first hand in Dust, a lot of those FOTM chasers end up being detrimental to the game as they often draw the attention of the "nerf-it" crowd who then often demand unwarranted nerfs to something that might not even be overpowered. The FOTM chasers aren't detrimental to the game, poor game balance is detrimental to the game. Competitive players will naturally trend towards the most optimal ways to play and if there's major balance problems, you'll see the "FOTM" style shifts amongst the playerbase. Nerfing and buffing parts of the game is just part of the development process. If a playstyle is completely dominant over all others, then appropriate changes should be made to allow other options to be viable. The problem I've seen in Dust's development is that the nerfs have been heavy handed and not iterative. If you're saying that FOTM chasing is not the cause of the problem then I agree. But it cannot be denied that FOTM chasing as a result of faulty balance further amplifies the problem, becoming in itself a detrimental factor to the overall game. FOTM chasing is and should be a legitimate tactic to maximize ones own efficiency and will happen in every competitive environment. However, getting back to what I believe is Maken's point regarding respecs, to limit its corrosive potential to overall game meta there has to be a cost associated with FOTM chasing. Otherwise every miniscule imbalance will immediately be exploited by large portions of the playerbase, temporarily invalidating or severely hampering every alternative choice every time the optimal meta shifts. The New Eden skill system without respecs does just that by introducing an opportunity cost to every skill choice. Without respecs, I have to think twice about spending three months worth of SP for an advantage that might not last for the next month when just going with what better alignes with my playstile might benefit me for much longer. The ability to respec inevitably reduces this opportunity cost, in the extreme case of abundant respecs, to almost zero. This means that the threshold for "OP enough to skill into" gets lowered so that FOTM chasing becomes more prevalent and aggresive. The result is more volatile meta where much smaller imbalances already become a problem while a respec-less environment would be much more resilient to sudden shifts due to rebalancing, possibly to the point where things can get fixed even before they get apparent to the general population. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Any Given Day 1354	Posted - 2014.06.02 22:47:00 - [6] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: [...]I see nothing about consumable dropsuits that adds to the game play of Legion.[...] "I see nothing about consumable weapons that adds to the game play of Legion." Your reasoning isn't wrong in that it does follow when viewed in isolation but you can rephrase it to include every other item with little or no modification as long as you overlook the fact that it's logical conclusion necessarily begs the question where to stop and why. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Any Given Day 1362	Posted - 2014.06.15 01:17:00 - [7] - Quote Last Dev post was 16 days ago. If nothing else, could we get a brief confirmation that work on this is still underway and the thread monitored? No specifics or time frames necessary (while appreciated). Just a small reassurance that someone is still assigned to this. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Any Given Day 1363	Posted - 2014.06.16 00:59:00 - [8] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: @Godin Sounds like an old interview. I like to see him come over to this thread right here as soon as possible and tell us if he has changed his mind or not. I think it was like 10 days ago that I saw it. Do you remember the link or at least the name of the website? This is the most recent interview with CCP Z I could google fu and I faintly remember seeing it cited around here as evidence that he's committed on going ahead with his proposal despite community concerns. Having been released may 21st and thus seven days after his OP here in this thread would somewhat fit this narrative but only as long as you ignore the high possibility that the Interview itself was conducted before that. Every other interview with Rouge and/or Z was released within hours of each other on may 2nd and I can't find anything in this one indicating that cannot be just as old. I wouldn't resort to panic just yet based this alone if that's what Godin is referring to. I would however appreciate any life sign from CCP Z so we can rekindle this, arguably heated, dialogue. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Any Given Day 1363	Posted - 2014.06.16 02:22:00 - [9] - Quote Natu Nobilis wrote: This one? That interview is with CCP Rouge (Jean-Charles Gaudechon) and, later, Hilmar (-Veigar P+¬tursson). Not CCP Z (Julien Dulioust) and progression is only mentioned in passing. Relevant quote on progression I found: Eurogamer wrote: Player progression will be "heavily updated, heavily changed" from how it is in Dust, although it'll share roughly the same DNA. "It's one of the things that will have a lot of love on Project Legion," I'm told. That's seems like the entirety of it after a quick glance. Edit: Added real names because many interviews don't reference the CCP names. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Any Given Day 1442	Posted - 2014.06.24 04:39:00 - [10] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Kevall Longstride wrote: John Psi wrote: Soooo... https://twitter.com/ccp_rouge/status/481103798073434112 What is CCP Rouge saying there? Probably that CCP Z couldn't get the pics out (which he didn't, even accounting for time-zones at this point) but not because Rouge didn't allow for it (since he feels let down himself). You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...