I strongly suggest that EVE: Legion adopt a progression system that mirrors EVE Online. I don't see why not.

Take EVE's progression system, mirror it, then streamline it. Now, create an analogue to ISIS for players to use.

Congratulations, you now have a system that is easy to understand as well as non-restrictive.

Can you find any flaws in my logic?

And something that I remember for some reason from your presentation, or maybe a panel / roundtable.

You said something to the effect of not liking that a player be stuck forever if he makes a mistake and dumps SP into something he didn't "mean" to. (Let's be honest, he meant to, but suffered from some buyer's remorse later.)

This entire mentality is contrary to what CCP has built with EVE, and what we've come to expect from New Eden, where you're setting DUST (or Legion?).

At a superficial level it goes against the HTFU mindset (that I don't agree with.) All the information is available to the player. There are in game descriptions. They can access an admittedly terrible but no-skills-required MLT version of the item they want to try (again, a strange tier system that I would ruin EVE.) They can even watch youtube videos reviewing the weapon / suit / thing they want to try. If they're so lucky to have friends, they can even ask for first hand experience. No one 'accidentally' skills something higher than they intended to. Whether they would have made that same decision in a month or however far in the future is immaterial.

At a deeper and more important level, no one is 'stuck forever.' In EVE, every skill has a purpose and reason for training to 5. That doesn't mean something else might be more worthwhile to train, but there's a reason for every 5. DUST can't say that. In EVE, if you skill into something and find you don't like it, that's tough. There are no respecs. The decision is yours to sulk and moan about your poor decision, or find a situational use for whatever you can access in the future. If you actually followed the patterns set by EVE, you could see this mindset applied to DUST. No skill is ever wasted, and no player is ever 'stuck.' (In EVE, at least, because DUST doesn't satisfactorily mirror EVE. (and Legion won't either?))

From what I understand, it's a bit like PS2 in that there's unlocks based on role.

What Legion does differently is that once you unlock something, you can use it in any fit you want.

I'm starting to get that impression too.

At least with CCP MC Peanut, we can be sure that our feedback is being considered for the HUD design. I'm not sure I can say the same for CCP Z in regards to the progression system he has laid out for us.

Don't try to defend CCP Z, or we may start disliking you, too.

I'm obviously joking. No one would ever dislike someone for such a petty reason.

...usually.

I for one would hate to be called names by strangers on the Internet.

Loved this. I agree completely.

Holy freakin' crap, that's a lot of text. Not to mention most of it is wrong.

Please shorten your post and I'll consider debating it.

Holy freakin' crap, that's a lot of text. Not to mention most of it is wrong.

Please shorten your post and I'll consider debating it.

(A note: My apologies at quoting you Ulysses, I'm actually addressing many people at once with this post.)

Firstly, the skill tree we're using in Dust has some deep intrinsic problems in it. It makes sense to us because we've been using it for the last year, but it is hyper unintuitive to the new player.

And it's more than just Dropsuit Command doing nothing at level 5.
- Some skills unlock gear at 1/3/5.
- Others unlock gear at 1/2/3/4/5.
- Some skills give buffs to gear (confusingly called "efficacy"), in addition to unlocking gear.
- There's "core skills" that give universal buffs to suits.
- "Hacking" gives universal buffs, while ALSO unlocking gear.
- Skills exist that have no purpose other than unlocking other skills.
- "Which of these 4 shield skills is the one that gives me more health?"
- To figure out what an item is you have to leave the skill menu, enter the Market, press the secret "Show Info" button, and toggle out of the flavor text to the attributes.

Yes. Our present skill tree "works".
But by no means does it "work well".

I know it's counter-intuitive, but user-friendly and deep are not mutually exclusive things.
There is a difference between bad-complexity and good-complexity.


Secondly, many here are making the argument: "The present skill tree is EVE's skill-tree, and EVE's skill-tree is perfect so why are we changing it?"
There's two parts to this argument so let's break it down:

1: "The present skill-tree is EVE's skill-tree,..."
Actually it's not.
EVE's system relies upon Attributes, implants, neural remaps, solely Passive learning of a specific skill, subscriptions, and EVE bonuses are granted by the Ships after checking the Skill level while Dust bonuses are granted by the Skill to the Dropsuits (which sounds like the same thing, but is different and subtly causes massive issues for balancing), ...to name but a few.

Just as I've taught many FPS players how the Dust skill-tree works, I've also taught EVE players how Dust works and they've been just as confused.


2: "...EVE's skill-tree is perfect so why are we changing it?"
EVE's skill-tree was not pulled from the Ark of the Covenant. Nor is it Euler's Identity, nor a pyrite crystal.
It's a "messy" solution cobbled together by human hands in response to a very specific problem.

It has had both in the past (eg: Learning Skills) and today (eg: Drone Skills) many issues.
It is not an immaculate solution to a shared problem.


Lastly, there is another argument people are making: "Dust/Legion should be EVE, but on the planets. And thus we should be mimicking EVE's gameplay as much as possible."
This is obviously related to the above statement, but comes at it from the angle of gameplay as opposed to the skill-tree.
As such, I'll respond to it from a different angle.

Allow me to be straightforward:
EVE is an amazing sandbox,
with battles where thousands of players led by gods tear away at each other,
filled with spying, politics and altruism,
where your cunning and ambition shape your future as much as any character stats you may have.
EVE is a glorious story-engine with one teeny-tiny problem:
It is not fun to play.

Do you want Planetary Conquest 2.0 to be a 5 hour POS grind?
Do you want PvE to be so simplistic many people bot it with trivial programs?
Do you want to have to run two accounts at once to have access to basic reconnaissance?
Do you want Dust to also become the "game you play while you're doing something else"?
Should Dust be "Spreadsheets on Planets"?

If you think that sounds great then you know what? That's fine!
Only you know what you find fun. No one can tell you otherwise. :)
But here's the thing, that game already exists, it's called EVE Online.
EVE is very, very, very good at being EVE.

But if you want a sandbox/MMO/FPS, well we're going to have build that.
And since no other game has done that, we'll have to invent.
Which means iteration.
Which means occasionally tearing down the old and replacing it with the new.


Our present skill system works.
But by no means does it work well.

Let's find something that does. :)

Current system is bad, we get it. That's why I suggested redoing it but better.

I actually don't mind simple skill trees. What I do mind is when they are oversimplified or when they restrict choice.

Both of these would seem to apply to CCP Z's progression system.

To me, this is an acceptable skill tree for dropsuits.

Just finished drafting up a potential skill tree for dropsuits. It's very streamlined and simple.

A bit ugly, though. I'm not much of a concept artist, I'm afraid.

T1 Dropsuits require Racial Dropsuit Command I.
T2 (Specialized) Dropsuits require Racial Dropsuit Command V and Specialized Dropsuits I.

I don't see how this could even be remotely a problem to understand, given proper UI.

I just had an idea.

Take CCP Z's idea, then suggest, on the EVE Forums, to implement that same system into EVE Online.

We'll use the EVE community's outrage over the idea to show CCP Z how bad he is at New Eden.

As someone else mentioned earlier in this thread, certificates are a valid option.

Certificates could be sets of skills that, if you don't quite understand the skill tree, would allow for a much simpler guideline by which to train skills. Combine this with something akin to ISIS and you have a recipe for simplicity itself.

If new players can't even understand something so simple, you probably have bigger problems than that.

And Still nobody has answered my question: Why is a skill system that restricts people is better than one that is open, improving that one, and then EXPLAINING THE GODDAMN SYSTEM

CCP says that they want to make EVE: Legion special and unique, but their actions tell another story.

Help me out here, guys, what's the word for someone who says one thing but does another? Hippogryph?

CCP says that they want to make EVE: Legion special and unique, but their actions tell another story.

Help me out here, guys, what's the word for someone who says one thing but does another? Hippogryph?

No, no it doesn't.

Feedback? Plans? Redesigns? Engine updates? Are these supposed to be novel in the game industry?

But that is completely possible with what he is proposing (the role based system). It appears that this role based system is borrowing heavily from Valkyrie as well as they just recently moved from a class to a role based system..