Why dont they have some archetype suits (like they do now) but they show a roadmap of skills to max them out for players that want a streamlined experience.

I understand why CCP is going the way they are proposing but I am almost positive it is because its an easy way for them to force balance.

It flies in the face of their proposed vision but so be it it seems; the same way they are moving to a more comfortable platform, the same way they make this move to build a more balanced experience in the game. Then after iteration and iteration they may take the training wheels off and allow what we have now.

If that's the case, Wouldn't the PC master race do the same?

We don't need training wheels, the idiots do.

I ask the question yet again: How is a system that is restricting people better than improving the curret one and teaching people hot to use it?

Missing my point - they are doing this because they arent capable of doing better.

None of this is for our benefit, its for theirs.

It also very funny that they are trying to sell this plan to an audience that are Dust vets and EVE players. This would have made more sense if they were bringing the game to a new console audience.

Ah well - Gotta love CCP

Any perceived restrictions that may or may not be in place (it is still a work in progress) will be slight and in the very early stages of the progression.

The current roles as proposed start, like the logistics example given, as a series of unlocks for suits, weapons and equipment. As the standard and advanced versions have been scrapped, there is no grind to improve the abilities of said item until you are sure you'd like to go deeper with it.

Once you unlock an item, your are free to use it on any suit you wish (subject to any restrictions that may be placed on a suit) IE heavies being locked using a heavy and sidearm and no abilities to put a light weapon in the heavy slot.

Giving a new player a lot of unlocks in the early stages of a free to play game is an established way to reward and give them reason to play your game longer.

It gives a more structured progression without the need of a raft of UI to explain it all. Which is why I like the role idea.

I'd also like to point out that a lot of people's concerns are based on established practise and game mechanics. That is just going to cause a lot of frustration because right now we've no clue as to the extent of the changes to them. Take for example the slot and fitting system for suits. Do you know for certain that those design principles will carry over to Legion?

I don't, so I'm choosing to assume there might be getting changed. Z has talked about our suit being our shell and making truly unique fittings. Who's to say there's a new system where we can configure the slot layout for instance? This would actually give you much more choice and depth than we have now.

I've always considered the original design decision to try and be as Eve as possible has put artificial barriers as to the development of Dust and now Legion. These choices like many in the early stage of the games development were made to appease the eve players. They share the same universe as Eve and have the same law as Eve. They don't have to do anything the same way as Eve.

And yes I shouldn't have to send all this information out and have already submitted a large number of ideas to improve the ways it can be delivered to players.

But I do because I enjoy helping as much as I can. And if I've made any meaningful contribution to steadying and stablising new player retention then so much the better.

The Skill System isn't as broken as some believe, though NPE is FUBAR. Just because NPE is FUBAR doesn't mean that you need to rework the Skill System, it means you need to rework NPE.

It isn't "as broken" as it seems. That part you are correct. But it still is broken regardless. It's not just the NPE (or lack of it in this case) that's the problem. Parts of the skill tree are absolutely useless.

1. Unlocking items only at levels 1, 3, and 5 results in some skill books having wasted SP on levels 2 and 4. Take a look at Active Scanner Operation as one example. Also, Dropsuit Command levels 4 and 5 are pointless as they don't unlock anything else after level 3. Even if it did unlock more items, there is a major problem brought up by my next point.

2. Some skill books don't give bonuses at all and only exist to unlock more skill books. This is wasteful in terms of SP. Gallente Light Frame for example only unlocks Gallente Light Frames suits but these suits don't offer any bonuses and they are more expensive than their role-based counterparts (WTF?). They exist only as stepping stones which only gets in the way and doesn't really show anything to the player about the suit in terms of its benefits and intended role.

So even if you implemented a proper NPE system, it doesn't address the two issues I just brought up.

If you scroll up through my responses here, I've addressed both of your concerns (at least with my opinion) earlier in the thread.

My thoughts on how the Eve:Legion Progression should look.

Firstly, it should be mainly Passive SP gain with the Passive SP filling a queued skill (just like Eve). Active SP gain should be present, though not in the same fashion as we are currently accustomed to.

I strongly believe that we'd best be served by a "Practice makes Perfect" style of Active SP generation. We should be rewarded for using the things we use by getting better at using them. This would reward new players with the carrot of SP for simply being in a match and being active. This would also prevent vets from skilling up like a runaway train without diversification.

I know that there are those who will decry this method, though I honestly believe that it is the best route for Legion to take. It allows rookies to have the illusion of accelerated SP gain while discouraging vets from instantly achieving Prof 5 by roflstomping everything with a tried and true fit.

After a point, we stop growing taller and we start growing wider, it makes no sense that we should excel at using something we've never touched before.

It allows the player to control what they gain skill points in by choosing what skill to queue, what gear to fit, what dropsuits to use and what weapons to use.

The Skill Tree itself should remain largely unchanged in design, though with some minor tweaks to values (to bring it more in line with Eve's skill costs) as well as the addition of certain branches found in Eve that are not currently found in Dust (namely Leadership, Social and Trade).

Lastly, every skill should provide a benefit outside of any unlocks, there should be no useless skills. Even if said benefits are tied to the Dropsuits/Modules/Weapons rather than the skill itself.

It isn't "as broken" as it seems. That part you are correct. But it still is broken regardless. It's not just the NPE (or lack of it in this case) that's the problem. Parts of the skill tree are absolutely useless.

1. Unlocking items only at levels 1, 3, and 5 results in some skill books having wasted SP on levels 2 and 4. Take a look at Active Scanner Operation as one example. Also, Dropsuit Command levels 4 and 5 are pointless as they don't unlock anything else after level 3. Even if it did unlock more items, there is a major problem brought up by my next point.

2. Some skill books don't give bonuses at all and only exist to unlock more skill books. This is wasteful in terms of SP. Gallente Light Frame for example only unlocks Gallente Light Frames suits but these suits don't offer any bonuses and they are more expensive than their role-based counterparts (WTF?). They exist only as stepping stones which only gets in the way and doesn't really show anything to the player about the suit in terms of its benefits and intended role.

So even if you implemented a proper NPE system, it doesn't address the two issues I just brought up.

And Still nobody has answered my question: Why is a skill system that restricts people is better than one that is open, improving that one, and then EXPLAINING THE GODDAMN SYSTEM

You've already highlighted your answer in bold.

If you have to explain the system, you designed it poorly in the first place.

You've already highlighted your answer in bold.

If you have to explain the system, you designed it poorly in the first place.

Just curious, but has anything been posted or detailed beyond the fanfest presentation? I've seen a few player's post a few general outlines showing what they each hope for, wondering if any of that hierarchy might pull some dev-level attention. Hell, I've even started drawing up one of my own. But honestly, is there anything dev-side offering more insight to the intended logic or structure of player progression?

While it's nice to see ideas popping around, to discuss hypothetical development and structure, to be inspired by what others are bringing to the conversation, we are only bringing it to a table (not necessarily the table). I mean, we can go round and round all day with wonderful ideas, but until we have a clear(er) idea of dev intent, well,... we're just chasing our tails.

In your opinion, is this thread serving any productive purpose? I mean, apart from a laser pointer to our cat/DUST, easily distracted, minds?

I personally find this very civil discussion inspiring. Towards the player base, that gives me comfort, especially in context of so many negative troll-bait threads I've read through during the life of DUST. But as positive of a discussion that this may be for us, I can't help but feel that we are just spinning our wheels fruitlessly. I'm still trying not to be cynical with all of this, but really, what's the point of this?

Well the thing is CCP does listen to a degree. It is still there game and they will do what they think is best, but they also try and pick out a few idea's from the crowd and try to incorporate it into the game. They have done this with EVE alott and even with Dust beta. So it's not pointless, but it's like saying well maybe, just maybe.....if they agree with it. So if enough gamers try to make the same point, it is more then likely they will have a better look at it.

You've already highlighted your answer in bold.

If you have to explain the system, you designed it poorly in the first place.

That's also part of it. But the topic of skill progression came up every now and then. Not as much as the topics of lag, broken PC mechanics, protostomping, and being put into a match in progress did, but when the topic of skill progression came up (often under the topic of respecs) it was almost always a heated debate on how it should be fixed.

On the one side you had people like me saying no to respecs while advocating a more clear and concise set of tools that can aid a player in better understanding the game. This eventually brought up the idea of overhauling the academy as part of the solution.

On the other side you had people saying yes to respecs simple on the basis that the skill progression system is broken and players need a chance to undo their mistakes which was the result of not being able to fully understand the skill progression.

Of course another idea was allowing players to just let them play around with the SP allocation just for the fun of it (an idea often proposed by the scrubby FOTM chasers).

EDIT: I forgot to mention that the pro-respec side also referred to the fact that some people didn't like certain play styles they tried earlier and feel that SP invested in those skills were wasted SP.

Have you thought about not reinventing the wheel? Just use a progression system like in COD or Battlefield?

I mean that is what you're trying to do - albeit in some half-assed Evetard way. There's no middle ground dude, pick your audience OR give people the choice between a role based system and what is in Dust now.

A quick question about game mechanics. Will the MCC's have more interaction in Legion, rather than being a place to spawn currently? For instance, will we be able to board and fight on them, while people are fighting on the ground below? Or perhaps, having the ability to launch ships from the MCC, like an aircraft carrier?

A quick question about game mechanics. Will the MCC's have more interaction in Legion, rather than being a place to spawn currently? For instance, will we be able to board and fight on them, while people are fighting on the ground below? Or perhaps, having the ability to launch ships from the MCC, like an aircraft carrier?