The more I read through this thread the more I become fearful that CCP Z is going to flatten Dust and dumb everything down for the sake of a few idiots who couldn't figure out how to use the skill tree.

I understand that improving the NPE is critical. I do not believe that in order to improve the NPE that we need to lobotomize DUST.

Would it be possible to implement an open New Eden friendly skill tree with an optional 'safety' for new players, whereby their SP choices are guided in a certain direction(s) up unto the point at which the player decides he or she is competent enough to make informed SP decision on their own?

Essentially we could superficially create a class system but still allow those willing to spend their SP as they see fit.

Anyone have any thoughts on a system like this?

The more I read through this thread the more I become fearful that CCP Z is going to flatten Dust and dumb everything down for the sake of a few idiots who couldn't figure out how to use the skill tree.

I understand that improving the NPE is critical. I do not believe that in order to improve the NPE that we need to lobotomize DUST.

Would it be possible to implement an open New Eden friendly skill tree with an optional 'safety' for new players, whereby their SP choices are guided in a certain direction(s) up unto the point at which the player decides he or she is competent enough to make informed SP decision on their own?

Essentially we could superficially create a class system but still allow those willing to spend their SP as they see fit.

Anyone have any thoughts on a system like this?

Would it be possible to implement an open New Eden friendly skill tree with an optional 'safety' for new players, whereby their SP choices are guided in a certain direction(s) up unto the point at which the player decides he or she is competent enough to make informed SP decision on their own?

Essentially we could superficially create a class system but still allow those willing to spend their SP as they see fit.

Anyone have any thoughts on a system like this?

Rather than changing an ENTIRE system you just add a user interface. You change the way the user sees the information rather than hard locking them to a linear path. Also this adds a trophy like system to the game through certification which is good.

In that case, it should be fine as long as you have to put in the effort (not just initially but every now and then). I guess I misread it originally. Sorry about that.

Lol ok, no problem.
I think that idea is very EvE like. Very Risk vs Reward oriented, with plenty of choice thrown in there.

Also, nothing should be pure Wallet ticks. It should give you a commodity which provides Isk through its sale on the player market.

The current default Assault has two light weapons. Commandos haven't really been worked on yet, but if they stick around it's likely they'll have a new role.

IGÇÖve created a proposal for an alternative progression system with some mockup interfaces and a mostly complete skill tree diagram. Here is the thread. I go into more detail there. IGÇÖd love to hear feedback--especially from CCP Z if you have the time to take a look.

Images:
Skill Tree Interface Mockup
GÇ£ISISGÇ¥ Analog Mockup
Skill Tree Diagram

The current default Assault has two light weapons. Commandos haven't really been worked on yet, but if they stick around it's likely they'll have a new role.

The current default Assault has two light weapons. Commandos haven't really been worked on yet, but if they stick around it's likely they'll have a new role.

Days later and I still don't like the concept of this proposed progression system for pretty much every reason people have posted. I'm definitely getting the classic CCP Dust Development vibe of "we're going to do what we want on this with the illusion of feedback."

The current skill system we have works to a certain extent but has it's obvious problems. 1/3/5 is bad. Items should be unlocked at 1 and every point after should provide a bonus. Why is this difficult?

The idea that "there's too much choice" is simply silly. Yes, at first there is a bit too much choice but this can be remedied by a certification system similar to eve's. It can give you an idea of a "vanilla" role and you can go from there.

You guys seem so ridiculously deadset on the idea that your players are idiots and it's insulting. Part of the biggest problem of NPE is that they don't know where to put their SP to make a decent build and also that weapons are incredibly imbalanced.

We want depth and customization, not progression on rails until you hit end game. Stop trying to reinvent the progression and just fix the problems the current system has and make sure weapons and suits are balanced properly.

IGÇÖve created a proposal for an alternative progression system with some mockup interfaces and a mostly complete skill tree diagram. Here is the thread. I go into more detail there. IGÇÖd love to hear feedback--especially from CCP Z if you have the time to take a look.

Images:
Skill Tree Interface Mockup
GÇ£ISISGÇ¥ Analog Mockup
Skill Tree Diagram

[...]They've researched and identified with their own numbers short comings in the current system, both in the progression system and the NPE. Questioning the findings of the research because it happens to not agree with your view isn't going to alter the Dev teams trust in its findings either. Besides, I think we can all agree, that nearly everyone on this thread, defending Z or not has highlighted shortcomings in the current system. [...]

None of us play DUST 514 because it's F2P. We play it because of the depth that no one has ever seen in a shooter.

CCP Z wants to take away that depth. That's taking away the most important aspect of the game.

I happen to question them because we know nothing substantial about this research other than the claim of it's existence and the assertion that the proposed system is a sensible response to its findings. Yes, the current system isn't perfect but that doesn't mean that the proposed system is the only, let alone optimal, alternative.

We have no idea what they've been looking for, we don't know how they decided to look, we don't know what they've found and, most critically, we don't know how their findings ended up informing the proposed design other than the blunt assertion that people cannot handle the current system.

This is important because, as several others have pointed out, assuming the research was sound and accepting CCP Z's et al. stated conclusion still doesn't tell us why a visual guiding frame (ISIS) wrapped around the current system, or really anything else that doesn't change the actual progression on any fundamental level, wouldn't work

Also well elaborated in multiple posts is the fact that central concepts such as "no respecs" being the default position, players having full freedom of their skill choices without being soft-locked into arbitrary roles and the full distinction between your character and whatever gear he might be using at any given time are discarded, seemingly, without further consideration of their inherent place within the existing universe that is New Eden.

Based on that. The proposed changes require some prior justification that goes beyond "95% of the people don't get it". Providing insight as to what this research is all about would be a reasonable first step.

Edit: Yes I get and agree with your overall call for some civility and appreciation. Yes I am deliberately confrontational because getting some info on why CCP Z chose the proposed design is vital in My opinion.

Since we're on the topic of Progression and it's a very hot topic from the looks of it, I have a proposal that CCP Z should read up on.

Project Legion Skill Progression Proposal - By Maken Tosch

It's probably not as elaborate as others have posted, but it's a proposal that I feel needs attention, particularly CCP Z's. It would be nice to compare our ideas to see how much of us are on the same page. Also, my proposal comes with a twist. Hope you like it.

Nicely presented and good content Maken.

So many mercs here have presented progression systems that serve newberries and vets, reflect the values of New Eden and fit the game on the ground very well.

It warms the heart to see what we can do when we're not going to war over tiericide, blue donuts, tankspam and redline snipers ;)

Since we're on the topic of Progression and it's a very hot topic from the looks of it, I have a proposal that CCP Z should read up on.

Project Legion Skill Progression Proposal - By Maken Tosch

It's probably not as elaborate as others have posted, but it's a proposal that I feel needs attention, particularly CCP Z's. It would be nice to compare our ideas to see how much of us are on the same page. Also, my proposal comes with a twist. Hope you like it.

according to them the commando has no place yet in their design, this doesn't mean we will never get one, just that as of this moment in time they believe it to not have a place in legion.

At our very core we are a community after all.

So say we all. Oh frakking seven, mate.

And I'd vote for your proposal solely because you had a picture of Miku in your slideshow. <3

Since we're on the topic of Progression and it's a very hot topic from the looks of it, I have a proposal that CCP Z should read up on.

Project Legion Skill Progression Proposal - By Maken Tosch

you should start a thread for that