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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 28 post(s) |
Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
3304
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Posted - 2014.05.14 19:21:00 -
[121] - Quote
Joseph Ridgeson wrote:Also, the complete and total openness from you has been refreshing. I noticed it in the "DUST 514" Progression speech where someone just asked "How much of this is coming to DUST 514?" and you just said, completely without bullshit, "It is for Legion." That wasn't something that we were particularly happy to hear because of the "Is DUST totally dead then?" before Rouge was able to get the information out at the CCP keynote but the plan speaking, honesty that we have seen from you is nice.
Same with this post. Even if it isn't things that we are necessarily happy to see, we all appreciate the fact that you are informing us as the Project moves forward.
I second this, and would also like to say that I really appreciate us having this discussion before the anything is programmed.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Vell0cet
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
1976
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Posted - 2014.05.14 19:34:00 -
[122] - Quote
CCP Z wrote:I donGÇÖt necessarily agree with the EVE example, it remains a really difficult progression system to understand. Legion is not and will not be EVE, even if both games share the same universe. We have many reasons justifying that choice: we are not the same business model (subscription vs free to play), we are not talking to the same target audience (hardcore MMO players vs Online FPS Players). That isnGÇÖt to say that their progression system isnGÇÖt great and applicable to EVE GÇô only that it does not necessarily fit the game we want Project Legion to become. I think that the new system will allow both: accessibility for new users to understand, while keeping the high level complexity of mix-matching modules, weapons and Dropsuits. Quote:I suspect that your proposed system may very well draw in more players, at least initially, but it will suffer the same fate as other MMOGÇÖs using more traditional skill progression systems, and players will get bored and burn out. We offer a much deeper and varied system than almost any MMO on the market, we are just trying to make it more accessible. Please feel free to add any other questions, IGÇÖll do my best to answer them all :) Z
First I want to thank you for taking the time to read the Open Letter to CCP Rouge. I know it was very long, but there is a lot to cover. It takes courage to speak directly to challenging questions and for that I commend you.
I think the above quotes really illustrate where we disagree. I have serious concerns about the financial viability of targeting a more casual player with Project Legion at the expense of your more hardcore fans. As much as I love New Eden and have invested in DUST 514, I have very little interest in playing the game of the nature youGÇÖre describing. I donGÇÖt think IGÇÖm alone. Now you may believe that by bringing in a flood of casual players it will more than make up for the losses from players like myself. There are some important points to consider with this strategy though.
Not all players are equal. I donGÇÖt mean to sound like an elitist jackass (IGÇÖm a pretty friendly/likable guy) but from a marketing standpoint, not all players are equal. Trading one great player for ten casuals may look good on a spreadsheet, but it may actually be a terrible financial decision. By GÇ£great playerGÇ¥ I donGÇÖt mean a guy who is really talented at FPS gameplay, IGÇÖm talking about someone who is an asset to CCP. CCP often heralds the community as a huge part of itGÇÖs success. The fact that EVEGÇÖs deep skill system appeals to highly intelligent gamers is a big part of why that community is so amazing. You may have access to the demographics, but I suspect there is a hugely disproportionate percentage of people who work in the software and game design industries among your players, relative to the general gaming demographics.
You have a disproportionately high number of what Malcom Gladwell refers to as GÇ£Connectors,GÇ¥ GÇ£Mavens,GÇ¥ and GÇ£SalesmenGÇ¥ in his book The Tipping Point. Complexity draws these kinds of players in, because simplicity is boring. How many players has CEOPyrex brought into the game through his YouTube channel? ThatGÇÖs a ton of free marketing which has a very real dollar figure equivalent. How many casual players would it take to replace one CEOPyrex over the course of a 10-year Project Legion career? The feedback from smart players has been invaluable in helping shape/improve EVE, and (to a more limited degree) DUST 514. When he runs events for his corpmates like racing LAVGÇÖs around the map to publish to the web, he is providing fresh content to those players, how many of them stick around and end up buying booster/AUR gear?
The online FPS player (the more casual players you seem to be targeting) are more fickle than the more hardcore players. LetGÇÖs be brutally honest here. Project Legion could be really great, and might have some cool visual flair, but it will never be able to compete directly with the major gaming studios/publishers with budgets that dwarf yours and teams with decades of experience producing shiny/polished games for the same core audience. Sure there will be bleedover from one to the next, but these gamers are attracted to novelty, not depth and commitment. Eventually Project Legion wonGÇÖt be new anymore, and many will move on to the next shiny FPS that Activision, EA, or whoever pukes out (GÇ£Ninja Turles in Space with guns! COOL! Screw Project Legion, I want to be a ninja turtle!GÇ¥). ThereGÇÖs no way to compete with that and youGÇÖll go bankrupt trying to retain fickle players.
This translates into a very real monetary impact. Here is a fictional User Story of the kind of player I think would be very valuable to have as your primary target demographic:
GÇ£Jim is a 35-year-old freelance software consultant. He makes $120,000 annually and spends a lot of time traveling for work. He was an avid gamer growing up but doesnGÇÖt get much time to game these days, except on his laptop when traveling and late night after his wife and kids are asleep on his high-end gaming PC. He loved FPS games and RTS games that focused on building unique worlds and managing resources. This appeals to his desire to organize complexity and to feel like a creator. Jim has plenty of disposable income for gaming, but has little time to commit. EVEGÇÖs pricing model really appeals to him because he can accrue power in his character without the grind that other MMOGÇÖs require. He spends $50/month on his 2 subscriptions and in additional PLEX he sells to avoid grinding ISK to support his PvP habit. He occasionally blogs on gaming and has even posted a few videos on YouTube.GÇ¥
(continued)
Best PvE idea ever!
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Vell0cet
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
1976
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Posted - 2014.05.14 19:36:00 -
[123] - Quote
Here is a fictional User Story of the kind of player IGÇÖm worried youGÇÖre targeting:
GÇ£Billy is a 20-year old gamer. He loves FPS games. He has played every AAA FPS since 2010. He works at a rental car company and makes $45,000 annually. Much of his disposable income goes to gaming, although he tends to move from game-to-game within a few months. He never really cared for RPG games much because they were too complicated and slow-paced. Skyrim was tolerable because the skill tree was pretty easy, and there was some decent action, but Billy quickly finished the main quest and never bothered to finish the side missions. Billy skips cutscenes and doesnGÇÖt read dialog boxes. He has over a dozen viruses on his PC.GÇ¥
As someone who does marketing as part of my job description, I can tell you right now that Jim is a much more valuable customer than Billy. I would be willing to spend a lot more marketing dollars to attract players like Jim over players like Billy. You should design Project LegionGÇÖs progression system to appeal to Jim and design itGÇÖs interface and tutorials to make the game comprehensible to Billy. You obviously want BOTH players, but if you design the game in a way that only appeals to Billy, Project Legion will have a shelf-life comparable to existing FPS games (and not the 10+ years that EVE has enjoyed). There may be more people like Billy than Jim, but donGÇÖt be fooled into thinking you can grab them away from existing AAA FPS franchises for more than a few months after launch (and thatGÇÖs assuming you have a successful launchGÇöwhich is a BIG GÇ£ifGÇ¥).
I have created a crude mockup of an GÇ£ISIS AnalogGÇ¥ just to show how you could work with the existing system to create a better UI and achieve many of the usability goals while still retaining the depth that keeps your valuable hardcore players interested. IGÇÖm intending to mock up a UI for the skill tree and perhaps a diagram of a re-architected skill tree that still retains the EVE-style 5-level system.
Your concern that EVE is a different financial model is a bit misguided. EVE is free-to-play as well with the PLEX system. Why canGÇÖt we reduce the amount of unboosted passive and active SP gained by some percentage (maybe 30% or so) and increase the percentage of boosters by the same amount to make them a better value and more desirable? If we can buy/sell boosters on the market like PLEX then the systems will be very similar. Players can grind ISK to gain access to boosters, and players with more real money than time can sell them boosters for ISK.
If you continue down this road, I want to warn you about the consequences. Here is an excerpt from a blog post In Which I Try to Speak Honestly About History written by a man named Dan Rubenfield, a Lead Game Designer for Star Wars Galaxies during the transition to the New Game Enhancement (widely viewed as one of the most catastrophic mistakes in online gaming history). HereGÇÖs the Wayback Machine link to the full post (The original link was giving me an error).
Dan Rubenfield wrote:However, we made a mistake. A BIG mistake.
Somewhere during the discussions it was strongly recommended that we
streamline our characters.
People wanted something simpler, more direct, more accessible.
We told them. GÇ£If you do this, you will lose all of our subscribers. It is that significant.GÇ¥
The response was that we would gain more due to the marketing push and relaunch.
So, we pushed forward.
Here's my question: "What have you learned from the failures of the SWG NGE rollout that you can avoid the same fate happening to Project Legion?"
Best PvE idea ever!
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Regis Blackbird
DUST University
Ivy League
209
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Posted - 2014.05.14 19:38:00 -
[124] - Quote
Sete Clifton wrote:Personally, it would be nice to see some kind of visual/graphical representation of the new progression system (both skills and items). I know there is the fanfest presentation, but I'm talking more about how it will specifically work. It's sort of hard for me to fully grasp the intricacies of this system, which in turn makes it difficult to discuss the vision as a whole. I fully get though that this is still pretty early, so a lot of that information probably doesn't even exist yet.
I agree. It is difficult do discuss if we don't know the full picture. And by that I mean not only how and where everything fits on the skill tree, but also how this relates to the fitting concept (if it has changed?) as well as the market. All these are interconnected, and all the discussions right now assumes that the second two stays unmodified.
If possible, CCP Z, could you please provide a (simple?) step by step concept of a new player starting to skill up the Logistics tree (the one that seemed most complete at fanfest), while demonstrating what options he would have in the fitting screen as a result of his selections, and how he would obtain said gear. If you like you could do this as DevBlog with nice pictures and logic diagrams (we all love those).
As long as Legion will have:
- Deep customization and options
- Your actions and decisions matters and have consequences
- Meaningful EVE Online link (corps and chat are not included in this statement)
I am fine with anything you come up with...
Ohh, BTW I forgot vehicles: will the long sought pilot suite be included in that skill tree? |
Regis Blackbird
DUST University
Ivy League
210
|
Posted - 2014.05.14 20:12:00 -
[125] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote: I have created a crude mockup of an GÇ£ISIS AnalogGÇ¥ just to show how you could work with the existing system to create a better UI and achieve many of the usability goals while still retaining the depth that keeps your valuable hardcore players interested. IGÇÖm intending to mock up a UI for the skill tree and perhaps a diagram of a re-architected skill tree that still retains the EVE-style 5-level system.
Absolutely love this!
+1 (2 actually)
I see that you have taken the concept of the Mastery levels from EVE as well (vehicles), which reminded me of an old post I made 
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1849558#post1849558
I looking forward seeing the final UI mockup.
Edit: Ohh CCP, his "Jim" analog could just have been a exact description of me... |
Kevall Longstride
DUST University
Ivy League
1297
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Posted - 2014.05.14 20:30:00 -
[126] - Quote
Maybe I'm being a little over sensitive here but I'm beginning to detect a very disturbing undercurrent of dismissing 'casual players' as not being worthy enough or too stupid to join our game. I hope I'm misreading that.
Attracting any demographic to try dust right now is an uphill struggle as it is. The retention rate is in low single figures right now. We need more players. We need them desperately. Player numbers are not going up and have plateaued for a year now. We need to look at any and all options to encourage player take up. And we can't afford to rule anything out as being above such change.
They continue to carry on as they are then Dust/Legion is never going to get beyond what it is now. CCP are prepared to stick it out for the moment but not forever. I'm just being pragmatic here, I honestly am. We've had the current system for a year and numbers haven't grown. And it's not a question of a better NPE being needed, that's a given. But dedicating all of that NPE resource to teaching a complicated skill tree, when we can simplify the tree for new starters, make it work for the educated and combine the NPE with the PvE to teach how to actually play the game, to me is just a smarter way to do this. CCP resources aren't unlimited after all.
A lot of this is going to looked at, polished and likely altered during the inevitable beta phase of Legion anyway.
CPM1 Candidate
CEO of DUST University
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Mia Romani
Nexus Marines
106
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Posted - 2014.05.14 20:45:00 -
[127] - Quote
Kevall Longstride wrote:Maybe I'm being a little over sensitive here but I'm beginning to detect a very disturbing undercurrent of dismissing 'casual players' as not being worthy enough or too stupid to join our game. I hope I'm misreading that. I think that's a reaction from several players (myself included) perceiving an equally disturbing undercurrent of dismissing 'hardcore players' as not being valuable enough to include in the target demographic.
Personally, I'd like to see some time spent on finding ways to leverage the enthusiasm of 'hardcore' players into helping generate content for 'casual' players. Two birds, one stone. That sort of thing. |
Vell0cet
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
1982
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Posted - 2014.05.14 20:48:00 -
[128] - Quote
Kevall Longstride wrote:Maybe I'm being a little over sensitive here but I'm beginning to detect a very disturbing undercurrent of dismissing 'casual players' as not being worthy enough or too stupid to join our game. I hope I'm misreading that.
Attracting any demographic to try dust right now is an uphill struggle as it is. The retention rate is in low single figures right now. We need more players. We need them desperately. Player numbers are not going up and have plateaued for a year now. We need to look at any and all options to encourage player take up. And we can't afford to rule anything out as being above such change.
They continue to carry on as they are then Dust/Legion is never going to get beyond what it is now. CCP are prepared to stick it out for the moment but not forever. I'm just being pragmatic here, I honestly am. We've had the current system for a year and numbers haven't grown. And it's not a question of a better NPE being needed, that's a given. But dedicating all of that NPE resource to teaching a complicated skill tree, when we can simplify the tree for new starters, make it work for the educated and combine the NPE with the PvE to teach how to actually play the game, to me is just a smarter way to do this. CCP resources aren't unlimited after all.
A lot of this is going to looked at, polished and likely altered during the inevitable beta phase of Legion anyway.
The fear is they're going to drive away their most valuable customers (like myself) in order to bring in new blood with the proposed changes. I'm honestly not trying to toot-my-own-horn here or try to make myself sound special on a video game forum, but I've spent hundreds of dollars on DUST and invested a lot of time and energy providing feedback. Until the announcement I was fully intending to continue to do so for years to come. There is a HUGE amount of value in having a customer like myself: smart, loyal, willing to spend, provides constructive feedback. I don't think players like myself are so easily replaced.
Getting new players is absolutely essential to the future of a ground-based New Eden game, but doing so at the expense of your hardcore fan base would guarantee a short lifespan for Project Legion. I think the primary reason for the decline are usability issues, the fact that it was released on an already obsolete platform from day 1, the severe lack of polish, the slow pace of balancing, the abomination of a tutorial, throwing new players in with vets very early, having a game designed for at least 32 v 32 players capped out at 16 v 16.. The core of the game is actually pretty amazing, but very few people get to experience it. When you're having a good match in DUST 514, it's literally better than any other FPS game ever made, hands down. There is a depth and richness to combat that is simply unmatched anywhere else.
Regarding the skill tree. Did you get a chance to see the ISIS mockup I cobbled together? The idea is new players could quickly get into a proto suit but would have to invest large amounts of SP to specialize down the road. Basic suits (I removed the racial variants for these) would focus on increasing survivability, but would lack bonuses to DPS, making them good general suits for new players. What are your thoughts?
Best PvE idea ever!
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Regis Blackbird
DUST University
Ivy League
210
|
Posted - 2014.05.14 20:57:00 -
[129] - Quote
Kevall Longstride wrote:Maybe I'm being a little over sensitive here but I'm beginning to detect a very disturbing undercurrent of dismissing 'casual players' as not being worthy enough or too stupid to join our game. I hope I'm misreading that.
Attracting any demographic to try dust right now is an uphill struggle as it is. The retention rate is in low single figures right now. We need more players. We need them desperately. Player numbers are not going up and have plateaued for a year now. We need to look at any and all options to encourage player take up. And we can't afford to rule anything out as being above such change.
They continue to carry on as they are then Dust/Legion is never going to get beyond what it is now. CCP are prepared to stick it out for the moment but not forever. I'm just being pragmatic here, I honestly am. We've had the current system for a year and numbers haven't grown. And it's not a question of a better NPE being needed, that's a given. But dedicating all of that NPE resource to teaching a complicated skill tree, when we can simplify the tree for new starters, make it work for the educated and combine the NPE with the PvE to teach how to actually play the game, to me is just a smarter way to do this. CCP resources aren't unlimited after all.
A lot of this is going to looked at, polished and likely altered during the inevitable beta phase of Legion anyway.
I think people reacting to change in general.
I won't say I don't have doubts over this news progression system, but I think we all need to know more to have the full picture.
The current progression system in Dust 514 is not complex in itself (it is a simple skill tree with 5 level nodes), but it's the combination of finding gear in the market, then checking prerequisites, then figuring out how much your core skills affect the values you are seeing (and not seeing) on the fitting screen which is daunting. |
Azri Sarum
BurgezzE.T.F
General Tso's Alliance
329
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Posted - 2014.05.14 21:03:00 -
[130] - Quote
CCP Z wrote:1st batch of answers: Quote:With a PC game can't you do both the new easy progression and keep the lvl 5 system so we can just get what we want since we know what we want. Yes we could keep the 5 levels. From the studies and the research we made on DUST, people seems to not understand it. ThatGÇÖs why we want to remove it. Respec will have a gradually increasing cost, so your choices matter
Could you elaborate on your studies of people understanding the skill system, because I'll be honest it does not make any sense to me.
None what-so-ever.
I say this because skill trees with nodes you put multiple points in has been a staple of games for quite some time. Just do a google image search for mmo skill tree and you will find dozens of examples, from wow, to rift, to star wars. I think their presentations were better, with icons depicting what the node did, but I think the general concept is very familiar. Have you considered working on the presentation instead of ripping out a very interesting skill system?
Now, as to the respec. I'm against it in principle because its not keeping with the spirit of New Eden. One of the core aspects that defines the universe and makes it oh so interesting is that your choices matter, and are persistant.
It does have some valid arguments for it though, and I've wanted one from time to time, so i wont be surprised to see it become a reality.
If you do implement a respec system, could you at least design some gameplay around it? Let certain drones have a chance at dropping a unique piece of circuitry that allows remapping of one node before burning out. Tradeable on the market of course. Think less systems, more sand in the sandbox  . This is what path of exile did to enable respects. It made it expensive, but was at least an option. It also made it much easier to undo single mistakes.
EVE - Victor Maximus
DUST - Azri Sarum
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
3306
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Posted - 2014.05.14 21:14:00 -
[131] - Quote
You would not believe how many people I have encountered who thought that all Snipers should ware the Scout suit because the Sniper in the early DUST ads is in a Scout suit. With the role system in place, the masses are going to react to any attempt at thinking outside the box with scorn and suspicion, because CCP told us all what roles to play and how to setup our suit.
Of course, being a rebel has a certain appeal... 
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Tallen Ellecon
1924
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Posted - 2014.05.14 21:17:00 -
[132] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:You would not believe how many people I have encountered who thought that all Snipers should ware the Scout suit because the Sniper in the early DUST ads is in a Scout suit. With the role system in place, the masses are going to react to any attempt at thinking outside the box with scorn and suspicion, because CCP told us all what roles to play and how to setup our suit. Of course, being a rebel has a certain appeal...
Ironically I use a shotgun in a heavy suit and snipe in a scout suit.
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Forlorn Destrier
2503
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Posted - 2014.05.14 21:47:00 -
[133] - Quote
I use a Minmatar Basic Medium frame for the high slots in the rare occasion that I snipe. |
Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
3308
|
Posted - 2014.05.14 21:51:00 -
[134] - Quote
Starlight Burner wrote:I still fail to see how any of this is related to DUST 514. I strongly remember this being the DUST 514 forums for the DUST 514 PlayStation Exclusive.
CCP Z still hasn't answered anything that pertains to the advancements of DUST 514 and nor has any of the other devs. Why doesn't CCP do something right for once? Maybe because CCP means Consistently Causing Problems?
Go make a darn(m) LEGION forum.
The Legion forum is here for the same reason there is a DUST 514 sub forum on the EVE Online Forums.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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byte modal
74
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Posted - 2014.05.14 21:58:00 -
[135] - Quote
CCP Z wrote:Quote:With a PC game can't you do both the new easy progression and keep the lvl 5 system so we can just get what we want since we know what we want. Yes we could keep the 5 levels. From the studies and the research we made on DUST, people seems to not understand it. ThatGÇÖs why we want to remove it.
First, this is my first time reading through this thread so my apologies for jumping in at this point if someone else has already addressed it. I will continue reading, but wanted to mark this before losing it in the 7 or so pages that are still growing. Too, even if it is already commented on or discussed, at least my post may help reinforce anyone else's post on this specific topic.
With that said, it seems illogical to me the cause and effect relationship used as justification for the new progression concept---or at least the removal of the current progression. Perhaps I am misunderstanding (likely) or simply do not have access to all data sources used to come to this conclusion (highly likely), but it seems to me short-sighted to remove something because players do not understand something.
I understand that confusion may lead to frustration which, in turn, may lead to a poor gaming experience that may cause uninstalls, account cancellations, or potentially bad PR. I get that. I also understand that perhaps a larger portion of the player base may find the current system (or another similarly designed progression, i.e., EVE: Online) confusing---larger than I assume. I don't have stats. What I understand more though, is that confusion is inevitable without education.
I have a feeling (based on closed beta experience; watching the community play, react, and criticize; CCP's consistency to be seemingly selective over their methods of communication with IRC-island discussions over forum threads [I still love you, CCP, in my special codependent way]; and the mass of player-led educational resources), that LEGION may suffer similar pains as DUST514 because the core issue is not being addressed still. Why do you think players have taken it upon themselves to create tutorial threads, blogs, and videos? Obviously they love the game and wish to give back to the community to see the potential of this game realized, but more I think it's because it simply does not exist in-game.
Are players confused as to what weapon, suit, skill, etc., they should choose to accomplish long-term X, Y, or Z goals? You're damn right they are because nothing has been explained to the new player what does what, or what to do with your NON-EXCHANGEABLE skill points before dropping them forever into something that just sounds like a bad-arse thing like Swarm Launchers. As someone posted recently, the first screen for each item we see is lore instead of what the function and specs are of that particular gear. Even still, not all of the specs are listed that could be used to make an informed decision. No guidance is given on where your skill points really come from, that they are non-refundable, how to navigate the market and research the PREREQUISITES of your gear before purchasing them only to find you cannot fit them---assuming the new player is able to figure out how to navigate the fitting screen.
A core problem is new player experience, and the severe lack of educational development. Sure, players are providing this---in a vacuum left by CCP---and new users can research quite a bit of material to learn if they choose to do so. What new player is going to know how to do this? What new player is going to bother? While I accept that perhaps this in and of itself may not resolve the overlying issue that your progression change is aiming for, education is sorely lacking. Education will go a long way to bridge the gap. This is something that has been requested since Closed Beta and will be needed regardless of whatever skill progression is decided upon. If not, then I'm honestly not sure what good a redesign will do. Forest for the tree type stuff, this is.
With a new system not heeding the dangers and warnings of a lacking educational experience for new players, not only do you risk maintaining the same level of new player confusion, but you also risk alienating the older experienced players that have built characters on a relative standard for two or so years. The support and experience that that player base can offer is very strong, in spite of the petulant rantings flooding the DUST514 GD forums currently.
I love DUST. I hope to love LEGION at least equally, SoonTM. Perhaps I'm way off base here, that happens a lot, trust me; but it just feels off, at best, to use resources to rewrite something that could be better resolved by taking a bit of time to educate the new player. That's not to say the current system is perfect, far from it. Sorry, I wanted to put that out so as not to sound so one-sided here. I come from EVE. There was a lot done in DUST514 that made me twitch in doubt and wonder as to how anything in the EVE universe could be.... this far removed from its own origins. I hope Legion doesn't dare go farther down that path and away from the core that is its big sister, EVE.
.........
Eh, I've gone on too long. I hope you take my meaning in all of this and that you (someone? anyone?) actually made it through :) Love you all over there, and hope for the best. Trying hard not to be jaded, so please forgive me if I come across as such. I actually am very excited to see what Legion may become.
meow. and all that.
- me.
Irony: Post #35
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Vell0cet
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
1992
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Posted - 2014.05.14 22:11:00 -
[136] - Quote
byte modal wrote:[quote=CCP Z] Perhaps I'm way off base here, that happens a lot, trust me; but it just feels off, at best, to use resources to rewrite something that could be better resolved by taking a bit of time to educate the new player.
You're not off base at all. I think you're right on the money (literally and figuratively). I thought the same thing about their internal tests. Of course they're going to be confused if they haven't been educated about how the system works. Once you get the basic idea, it's actually pretty easy to grasp. An "ISIS" equivalent would do wonders here.
Best PvE idea ever!
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byte modal
75
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Posted - 2014.05.14 22:27:00 -
[137] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:byte modal wrote:[quote=CCP Z] Perhaps I'm way off base here, that happens a lot, trust me; but it just feels off, at best, to use resources to rewrite something that could be better resolved by taking a bit of time to educate the new player. You're not off base at all. I think you're right on the money (literally and figuratively). I thought the same thing about their internal tests. Of course they're going to be confused if they haven't been educated about how the system works. Once you get the basic idea, it's actually pretty easy to grasp. An "ISIS" equivalent would do wonders here.
Not to try to farm a like or two in conversation, but yeah, you're right. I come from EVE. I've already been put through the ringer over there in DAYS worth of tutorials and "wtf" spasms. Porting over to DUST514, while awkward at first due to its differences, was pretty easy to grasp---ONLY BECAUSE I WAS ALREADY TAUGHT HOW TO THINK THIS WAY!!! I can't even begin to imagine what an ignorant new player is facing. That's ignorant as in without understanding, not stupid.
Now I don't think that DUST needs such an elaborate tutorial system as EVE, but there needs to be more than nothing. No, I don't really count those 3 or so academy accomplishments as educational. Before I'm even placed into the academy, put me in a firing range with all militia weapons available to test fire on dumb targets. That would tie in enough to the FPS shooter thought process and provide a free experience with militia-grade weapons. click each to read a brief 2-line description at most, an option to test fire, a link to a visual representation of that weapon's skill tree path (think EVE certificates in concept, but not so damn nerdy and spreadsheet-esque) explaining a general purpose of progression and how that ties to upper tier variants, and finally an option to purchase through market.
Be allowed to come back at ANY time, from merc quarters, to test any gear you may have previously had no interest in. Literally, a walk-in closet to try stuff out. Sounds familiar... where have I read this at.......
TEACH US!
Build it and they will come.
Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach a man to fish, and that man will be able to build a better fitting and will be less likely to rage-quit down the road. Just sayin'.
<3<3<3
- me.
Irony: Post #35
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
3309
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Posted - 2014.05.14 22:36:00 -
[138] - Quote
The target audience for Legion should be people who have been playing FPS or MMO games for years and are looking for a deeper more fulfilling experience.
- There are a lot of people who have played these games for years.
- These players are years older and more likely to be financially independent. (AUR Sales.)
- These players are looking for a greater commitment.
- These players are too jaded to run off after every new shiny game that comes out.
- These players are the ones who are active across multiple media. (Free advertising.)
- These are the players that new gamers look up to and want to emulate.
Although, all that being said, I have met plenty of young players who felt DUST was more interesting than other FPS games they had played, and I donGÇÖt think this will change with Legion. Even among young players there are those who seek a higher intellectual standard. Catering the veteran gamer will not preclude plenty of young players finding it interesting as well. The stuff adults design for themselves are often more fun that stuff adults design for kids.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Tallen Ellecon
1925
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Posted - 2014.05.14 23:13:00 -
[139] - Quote
It appears that the direction see Legion going in terms of skill progression is.....
Sandbox to them means no hand holding so we opt for intuitive progression over deep customization. This frees up the resources required towards an ISIS or tutorial system that aids ALL players. It's very flawed and it's a solution that won't bring any longevity.
NPE is on the top of my list for priorities, if people don't play, there is nobody to play with and nobody to pay for the game, pretty simple. Dust had issues with showing new players the ropes and getting them into it, I know this personally because I'd spend hours with new recruits explaining everything they'd need to know before skilling into something, The system itself wasn't totally flawed, but other mechanics definitely were.
Things that hurt NPE in Dust now.
A) Handing them a bunch of precious SP, and not explaining the best way to spend it.
This I believe is what you're trying to remedy, but it wasn't the skill tree itself, but a couple of other factors.
1) Obvious imbalance of weapons, this made investing in things like a Plasma Cannon or Laser Rifle early on a burden.
2) Lack of PVE or testing grounds made it impossible to try things without investing in them. With PVE a weapon only needs to be powerful enough to destroy an AI target, not necessarily another veteran player who is prepared to survive
3) Having SP sink gates in, such as the basic frame skill, dropsuit command, etc. etc. adds more useless content and unnecessary confusion
B) Lack of in depth tutorial or resources.
1) Add an ISIS or certificate/mastery system, this is a feature that is very useful to both new and old players alike. The proposed progression system can reach the same goal with references such as these, without forcing someone down a linear path they may not like as it progresses.
2) The battle academy was a joke, if PVE is what you all have in mind, just make a basic tutorial system with PVE. Add an academy later so people can practice at their own pace.
3) Make finding a corp easier, get comms everywhere. On a PC it's easier to type in a help chat, make it easily accessible throughout the start.
C) Lack of gamemodes and matchmaking
1) Keep new players away from groups like Nyain San. If casual new players and end of game veterans don't have the option or incentive to play separate from each other you will retain no new players.
2) Again, PVE is vital. Casual and Co Op play needs to exist for those who want an escape and not a second job.
Things that new system hurts.
A) Deep customization, honestly you can try to simplify and dumb down everything for more players, but they won't last like they have in EVE. Linear progression creates a grind to the top scheme, which only ends with reaching the top and either 1) Starting all over again from the bottom of a new path 2) Leaving.
B) Ownership of role and setup. My favorite heavy setup is a speed tanked Gallente Shotgunner. It fits the lore and the mechanic in EVE. That setup is outside the traditional role, but whenever I start singing "shotgun heavy" in my old timey blues tone, my corp knows what I'm talking about. If that setup requires extra progression or two separate paths to work into, you define what each role should be and leave a lot of fun creativity out which isneeded for a sandbox.
C) Customization isn't just discouraged, it's prohibited. EVE ships all carry bonuses towards certain weapons and modules helping them to maximize a role, but you don't need to spec into Amarr frigates to use energy weapons. From the start I can make Gallente frigates shooting lasers and nothing will stop me. The ISIS and mastery systems would recommend I use Hybrid weapons and the role bonuses are best used with the recommended guns, but they aren't exclusive.
D) Still no EVE style tiericide, make progression be more about specialization and customization than simply getting better versions of previous things. These create an SP sink for older players without making lower SP players completely outmatched.
I don't mean to be repetitive this stuff has been stated over and over again, but it's imperative that Legion learns from the problems of Dusts NPE and see the strengths of EVE and Dusts skill progression. CCP Z I know your intentions are good, and you are reacting to the issues you and your "test groups" had with Dust and the NPE, but there are ways to get people to stay longer than the first couple of hours that don't stand in the way of what makes people want to stay for years. We're all here to help make Legion the sandbox we all dream of and we thank you for the feedback.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
3311
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Posted - 2014.05.14 23:22:00 -
[140] - Quote
Kevall Longstride wrote:Maybe I'm being a little over sensitive here but I'm beginning to detect a very disturbing undercurrent of dismissing 'casual players' as not being worthy enough or too stupid to join our game. I hope I'm misreading that.
We are saying that if you target hardcore players (while trying to accommodate casual players), then casual players will flock around each of the Hardcore players. How many casual players have stayed with DUST because of you and I?
If they target casual players and make the game uninteresting for hardcore players, then the hardcore players will leave, and then the casual players will not have anything to latch onto and they will leave as well.
If I feel like there is nothing left to learn in the game, I will leave, and find a new game to learn. I like games were I am constantly learning and being challenged.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Tallen Ellecon
1926
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Posted - 2014.05.14 23:42:00 -
[141] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:Kevall Longstride wrote:Maybe I'm being a little over sensitive here but I'm beginning to detect a very disturbing undercurrent of dismissing 'casual players' as not being worthy enough or too stupid to join our game. I hope I'm misreading that. We are saying that if you target hardcore players (while trying to accommodate casual players), then casual players will flock around each of the Hardcore players. How many casual players have stayed with DUST because of you and I? If they target casual players and make the game uninteresting for hardcore players, then the hardcore players will leave, and then the casual players will not have anything to latch onto and they will leave as well. If I feel like there is nothing left to learn in the game, I will leave, and find a new game to learn. I like games were I am constantly learning and being challenged.
I like to think of myself as a middle ground player, slightly more towards the hardcore. I see exactly where Vell0cet is coming from and from a business perspective he is totally right. From a gameplay perspective though the whole point of F2P game is that though people may not all be paying, they add more to the content. Especially in a sandbox more active bodies working in the world is better than a few highly invested ones..... you need both.
This is where the challenge is and balance has to be made. Give any player enough tools to understand the in depth mechanics from a practical sense and they don't necessarily have to invest a lot of time, effort, and money to help the game. TF2 is a perfect example of a F2P game I can pick up every couple of months, get into, play for awhile, and leave. TF2 has the F2P in depth longevity versus casual play balance figured out, and I think both Legion and Valkyrie are looking at that as a reference. The hard core players pay most of the funds while the casual players fuel the content, in a sense a win win.
If they want to simplify the interface, tutorial system, and have an ISIS equivalent without dumbing down or streamlining the skill tree itself I think they could draw in both types of players.
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Pseudogenesis
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
178
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Posted - 2014.05.14 23:45:00 -
[142] - Quote
Spectral Clone wrote:CCP Blowout wrote:Hey, I didn't link you here just so you could link back to your other threads  This will become a discussion when you start discussing things. I think CCP Z has done a great job for a first post here and a lot of new info has come out. Get involved, Spectral Clone!  I will be engaged for sure. Nobody here wants a new CoD/WoW MMOFPS in New Eden. I-¦m not saying this to be evil towards CCP Z or anyone at CCP. The fact is simple, if we wanted to play WoW or CoD, we would not be your customers paying for this vision.
I do! \o/
... o/
..... o
Yeah never mind
Stabby-stabber extraordinaire
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Mr m4gic
XSKvLLX
58
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Posted - 2014.05.14 23:46:00 -
[143] - Quote
it sounds like legion is becoming more like fallout with a few extras, which would be good :)
Have you seen my baseball??
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Fenix Alexarr
BurgezzE.T.F
General Tso's Alliance
108
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Posted - 2014.05.14 23:53:00 -
[144] - Quote
Welcome to the forums Z.
Your presentation on changing the skill system in Dust actually made my head spin (in a horrible way) when I saw it at work. I have also seen a lot of feedback about keeping the current skill system. 5 lvls, SP, ISIS type trees... I'm wondering how many people who play aren't here to tell you what a poor decision it would be to gut the current skill system.
The general sentiment I've read throughout the forums has been disbelief that the current system would change so radically, because it would make no sense to the players that have invested time/energy/dollars/isk/blood/sweat/tears/hardware into a game that stands heads and shoulders above other games as a direct result of the skill progression system.
I don't mind the presentation of the new 'suggested trees'. Those are useful and most games have similar things (RIFT comes to mind immediately) The problem that I have with your new system is that it would effectively turn Dust/Legion into all of the other shooters out there that rise and fall in popularity by locking items behind a common archetype layout.
I realize COD and BFx have a formula that makes them money. They ride the waves of popularity and invest quite heavily in hooking players on a system that is constantly changing and forcing people to restart the grind every release (new game). Dust/Legion cannot survive their model of progression. We need the current system to stay mostly in tact if we are to hold the attention of players for more than a few months (see tribes:ascension).
Our waves of popularity come from rebalances (iterations on expansions). We don't have a new iteration of a game where skills/gear/ranks get reset every few months. Leaving the ability to skill into something totally off the wall from the normal archetypes in FPS games is literally the strongest pull for new players to Dust.
Taking that away removes any incentive to cope with the other constant issues that this development studio has with building their first shooter. Please reconsider your position. I see it as a very vocal minority that is causing you to push for this simplification. Your long term players will not stick around for a game like you propose when there are so many direct alternatives that have piles of polish on them.
The optimal solution I see is that your new progression trees become polite suggestions and that the gear/skill progression remains almost exactly the same. Use this time to improve the NPE to make sure that all players start out with the same basic knowledge to most effectively use the tools you're giving them.
Anything short of that will probably not help the current situation with regards to players confidence in Legion as a long-term investment. |
crazy space 1
GunFall Mobilization
2554
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Posted - 2014.05.15 00:06:00 -
[145] - Quote
CCP Z wrote:Quote:With a PC game can't you do both the new easy progression and keep the lvl 5 system so we can just get what we want since we know what we want. Yes we could keep the 5 levels. From the studies and the research we made on DUST, people seems to not understand it. ThatGÇÖs why we want to remove it.
So are you saying this is CCPs stance on Eve online as well? The skill system is too complacated? You know CCP are trying to advertise Legion, EvE, Valkyrie as a game where one day you'll log into all three from one account.
If you want to keep the system SIMPLE then you need to go with the same skill system for both games. Create any system different from eve online will just add added complexity to the eve universe no one asked for and no one needs
Point 2. In dust most skills don't actully do much. The level 5 system has nothing to do with why player can not understand the skill system. I can bring up zero posts from the closed beta period on these forums that would lead me to believe anyone had a problem with
Light weapon reload
+3% Reload per level for all light weaons
You went and replaced it with a complex sideays skill tree system that did nothing but make dust more condfusing and harder to unerstand. Now you are using the studies and the research your team got off of how console gamers couldn't understood your unasked for, and might I add unannounced, current progression system we currently have in dust.
The reason no one understands the skill system in Dust is becuase it is nothing like eve. Your data is flawed and coming from a really strange view point. I feel like you don't understand something, if it doesn't have the same skill system as eve, people that play eve online won't play Legion.
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crazy space 1
GunFall Mobilization
2554
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Posted - 2014.05.15 00:12:00 -
[146] - Quote
The point CCP Z is you are talking as if you were making Legion a Console MMOFPS, you are not. You are moving to PC, no one will be confused.
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Ender Storm
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
132
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Posted - 2014.05.15 00:16:00 -
[147] - Quote
I feel like we wont have a "Rifter" suit like in Legion.
I very much would desire that gear would matter less than experience, as in EVE where a low SP pilot still has utility within a vet fleet. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
8556
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Posted - 2014.05.15 00:23:00 -
[148] - Quote
Overall, if I want to be a Scout suit and I want to use a Mass Driver on it then I should be able to train up the Scout suit and the Mass Driver without ever needing to train up the Logistics suit in order to use the Mass Driver. I don't ever want to be forced into another suit I won't use just to gain access to a weapon that I like.
On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
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Hammerhead LandSharkX
Liberum Sapiens Xenodochi
16
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Posted - 2014.05.15 00:25:00 -
[149] - Quote
CCP Z wrote:
If you look at the tree that I showed during the presentation, basic weapons for all classes will be available early in the progression so you will be able to try them fairly easily (or quickly if you prefer). But yes, we are making the Progression more difficult. Right now, within a couple of weeks of play, you can basically create your ultimate Fitting and never do anything else.
in regards to the part I underlined...
could you elaborate on how progression will be 'more difficult' yet 'more accessible'? By 'more difficult' do you mean it is going to take longer to skill into a fully defined role? Do you intend for it to take longer for people to cap out in a respective role's skills or to achieve a role specific fitting...both? Do you intend for it to take longer or somehow be more difficult to be able to switch roles through different fittings?
for what it's worth i'm of a strong opinion that players should be able to experiment easily at a low level/tier/etc with their progression and fitting variety...while it could spike increasingly in difficulty/time as they specialize deeper into roles/skills. I feel the current pace at which players can unlock basic suits/modules/weapons in dust514 is pretty close to where it should be-while reaching high end suits/modules/weapons/passives could reasonably use some tweaking (increased time/difficulty).
CCP Z wrote:Quote:I would want to know why the current skill system could not be a base for EVE Legion with a UI overlay guiding players into roles? Has a investigation of this been done? Re-watch the presentation, both Progression systems are not that far away from each other. If the progression systems are not that far away from each other-is it not a good idea to try and carry over the current skill system as much as possible to ease the transfer of characters from dust to legion? Couldn't this be done in conjunction with your re-defined roles as the aforementioned ui overlay like ISIS & EVE certificates or some other 'new player friendly' possibly more automatic tree guidance system. Thus allowing both to exist-where one (yours) streamlines the other (current) but does not force everyone to adhere to it?
I realize it's unfair of me to assume this without fully seeing an outline of the revamped tree...but taking the 'starter fits' from dust514 as an example...It's hard to trust predefined roles as the primary way to progress. I believe allowing the current skill system to remain the base is a good way to allow for the continued freedom and creativity of the playerbase to thrive while introducing and refining a way to draw in newer and less 'skill tree oriented' players to progress with ease on top of that base.
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Hammerhead LandSharkX
Liberum Sapiens Xenodochi
17
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Posted - 2014.05.15 01:10:00 -
[150] - Quote
*oops* |
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