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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 28 post(s) |
Captain Crutches
Nexus Marines
112
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Posted - 2014.05.15 05:51:00 -
[1] - Quote
I can't say any better what's already been said here. I will just say I love this thread, I love the (mostly) constructive nature of the feedback, and I love that Z is taking the time to answer questions, even if I don't necessarily like all his answers.
I will just give a brief TL;DR of my views: Respecs in any form unsettle me a lot, the suit BPO idea unsettles me even more, locking weapons to roles in the progression trees is weird (why must I skill into an entire role I'm not interested in just so I can use its associated weapon?). On the other hand, I literally fist-pumped when I read there will be no more P2W Aurum gear, I raged every time I died to that.
My feelings about this system (as it seems to be with most here) lean more toward the negative than the positive overall. I'd love to see concrete examples of it in action (UI mockups, video demos, more than just what Z presented at Fanfest) as I think that would help a lot of us come to more informed conclusions (either "huh, this actually might not be that bad" or "yup, confirmed for awful"), but based on what I know I remain very skeptical.
I would echo that a system consistent with Eve will help immersion and emphasize the connection between the games. No, Dust/Legion is not Eve, but they are and should be closely linked in both concrete interaction and feel/mechanics, to keep players of both games grounded in the New Eden universe and facilitate moving from one to the other (you want Legion players' Eve subscription money, don't deny it). Many Eve players will flock to Legion if only to give it a try, and they will be comforted by a similar system that reminds them of where they are.
Why do I always write long posts late at night right before I go to bed? I really need to catch up on sleep, why am I here...
Legion is absolutely the right move for the future of Dust. How CCP went about revealing it is the biggest problem.
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Captain Crutches
Nexus Marines
114
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Posted - 2014.05.16 00:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
Cyrus Militani wrote:If a respect option is "the solution" for changing directions this new system is already broken. So what you're saying is I'll either need insanely more SP to diversify my class / fittings, or I'll need to respec every time I want to change classes. I have seen this in other games, and nothing is worse than hearing "hold on I need to respec into x".
This. The mark of a good progression system, IMO, should be that no respecs of any sort are necessary. I put up with them in Dust thus far with the understanding that when all planned equipment and skills were hammered out they would stop. Hearing you plan to offer them in Legion right from the get-go tells me the system must be (at least a little bit) deeply flawed or you wouldn't let us have them.
Legion is absolutely the right move for the future of Dust. How CCP went about revealing it is the biggest problem.
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Captain Crutches
Nexus Marines
118
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Posted - 2014.05.16 07:04:00 -
[3] - Quote
Fenix Alexarr wrote:Is anyone almost entirely on board with Z's proposed changes? (like >90%)
I'm sure some people are. Indeed, they may be just as numerous (if not more so) than those of us who oppose it. It is the dissenters that tend to speak out the loudest, after all. And there are of course the CCP apologists who just go along with whatever and try to justify it in various outlandish ways. (For the record, I'm generally a shameless CCP apologist, but this progression system is just... *cringe*)
Indeed, if "petition" threads weren't frowned upon, I might be tempted to make one for people who are strongly in favor of this system, just to see how many people speak up. While constructive criticism the likes of which this thread is (mostly) full of is definitely healthy, what's even more healthy is when the constructive criticism is constructively criticized and becomes informed, civilized debate (Not just "this system is **** and CCP Z should feel terrible for coming up with it" vs "**** you guys, this is great for the game and anyone who thinks otherwise wants to see Legion fail").
Legion is absolutely the right move for the future of Dust. How CCP went about revealing it is the biggest problem.
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Captain Crutches
Nexus Marines
122
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Posted - 2014.05.16 16:52:00 -
[4] - Quote
Gyn Wallace wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:Vrain Matari wrote: ...[stuff about respecs]... It's less to do with immersion and more to do with discouraging FOTM chasers. The correct remedy for discouraging FOTM chasers, is not to create FOTM in the first place. To the extent CCP re-balances items, changing what we had previously chosen, our choices are rendered meaningless. Respecs are an absolutely necessary evil, if CCP is going to do any re-balancing of items. They are necessary to avoid the greater evil of treating their customers like the victims of a bait and switch scam. Arguing that customers should be stuck with a choice they didn't make (a differently balanced version of their prior choice) is an argument against people enduring the consequences of their own choices, and in favor of making people endure the consequences of someone else's choice. The entire "no respecs bc choices should have consequences" argument is thoroughly sloppy.
I invite you to head over to the Eve forums and ask for a refund if your Drones SP in light of the major drone changes coming in Kronos. I'm sure the community there will be very enthusiastic in their response.
Legion is absolutely the right move for the future of Dust. How CCP went about revealing it is the biggest problem.
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Captain Crutches
Nexus Marines
123
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Posted - 2014.05.16 19:14:00 -
[5] - Quote
Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:You guys seem so ridiculously deadset on the idea that your players are idiots and it's insulting. Part of the biggest problem of NPE is that they don't know where to put their SP to make a decent build and also that weapons are incredibly imbalanced.
So much this.
The problem isn't that your players are stupid, the problem is that your NPE is ****. Even the "smartest" gamers are going to have trouble picking up Dust's complex system without some training/tutorials, and that's not a bad thing, it just means you need to actually put in some training/tutorials!
A lot of us here have the advantage of having played Eve before Dust arrived, so we were able to pick it up fairly easily because of how similar it was, and I think that's something you should aim for - like I said earlier, it will help both with immersion and with players transitioning from one game to the other. But for someone who's never played anything with the depth and choice capability of the New Eden universe, it's going to be hard to get at first - and that's okay!
Take the time to make a good NPE, explain the progression system to an inexperienced player, and you will be rewarded with an informed, intelligent playerbase worthy of New Eden - not the respec-happy, confined-role WoW/CoD crowd you seem to be trying to attract.
Legion is absolutely the right move for the future of Dust. How CCP went about revealing it is the biggest problem.
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Captain Crutches
Nexus Marines
125
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Posted - 2014.05.16 23:12:00 -
[6] - Quote
Nice. Skill tree is way TL;DR and the others obviously need a lot of polish/work from CCP UI dudes, but the concept is sound and I agree that such things should be implemented.
Legion is absolutely the right move for the future of Dust. How CCP went about revealing it is the biggest problem.
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Captain Crutches
Nexus Marines
126
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Posted - 2014.05.17 04:53:00 -
[7] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Vrain Matari wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:Since we're on the topic of Progression and it's a very hot topic from the looks of it, I have a proposal that CCP Z should read up on. Project Legion Skill Progression Proposal - By Maken ToschIt's probably not as elaborate as others have posted, but it's a proposal that I feel needs attention, particularly CCP Z's. It would be nice to compare our ideas to see how much of us are on the same page. Also, my proposal comes with a twist. Hope you like it. Nicely presented and good content Maken. So many mercs here have presented progression systems that serve newberries and vets, reflect the values of New Eden and fit the game on the ground very well. It warms the heart to see what we can do when we're not going to war over tiericide, blue donuts, tankspam and redline snipers ;) At our very core we are a community after all. 
So say we all. Oh frakking seven, mate.
And I'd vote for your proposal solely because you had a picture of Miku in your slideshow. <3
Legion is absolutely the right move for the future of Dust. How CCP went about revealing it is the biggest problem.
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Captain Crutches
Nexus Marines
128
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Posted - 2014.05.18 21:38:00 -
[8] - Quote
Kevall Longstride wrote:So you can imagine my reservations as to the assertions of others, that the current system is fine or just needs a bit of a tweak.... when I have to send out that much information to new players to explain it all!!
If you want my .02 isk... you shouldn't be the one who has to send all those mails!
The complexity of the current progression system is, IMO, less of a problem than that the NPE does virtually nothing to explain it to new players, passing the burden on to people like you. Of course we appreciate you for it, but the problem is that it's necessary in the first place.
If all CCP changed was the progression system, you'd still have to send out mails to every new D-UNI member explaining it. The mails would be different, yes, and there may be fewer of them, but the burden would still be on you to do it. If CCP instead focused on making a great NPE and explaining all that info that you so painstakingly mail everyone, I think more people would understand the progression system (however complex it was) and we wouldn't have this problem.
TLDR - The universally acknowledged problem is that people don't understand the progression system. But players can't be blamed for that when CCP does such a terrible job teaching them right off the bat. You yourself have shown without doubt that when someone is there to teach a newbie about the game they stick around longer. But only those that join D-UNI or another training corp get that instruction. Make a comprehensive NPE that teaches the progression system to those that need it, and then show me new data on retention and universal understanding - I bet it will be higher, and it'll give people like Dennie less work too!
Legion is absolutely the right move for the future of Dust. How CCP went about revealing it is the biggest problem.
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Captain Crutches
Nexus Marines
134
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Posted - 2014.06.04 05:18:00 -
[9] - Quote
Why do my post ideas always form before bed?
Anyway, here's some words on suit BPO's and "emotional attachment".
Let's say, eventually - certainly not anytime soon after release, but eventually - Legion reaches a point where large-scale ground or combined ground/space battles can be fought and have a newsworthy impact at the level of 6VDT or B-R.
Z's reasoning seems to be that if you participate in such a battle, you can then later go into your Tony Stark Hall of Suits and be able to say "see, this is the suit I used in that famous fight, wasn't it awesome?"
The obvious problem I see is that, with all suits being unlimited, you'll only have at most one BPO of each type of suit. And in all likelihood, you'll die at least once during the battle and the instance of that type of suit you were using is destroyed. So you can only say "this is the type of suit I used in that big fight".
Also likely is that, depending on how many times you die/respawn/resupply, you'll use more than one type of suit in a large battle, and indeed probably more than one fit of the same type of suit (i.e. a Gallente scout fit for sniping, and a Gallente scout with a shotgun). So you really can only say "this is one of the types of suits I used in that big fight, and I had it fit like this, and like this, and like this..." Indeed, the more you diversify and the more types of suits you use, the less special they become in that context.
I was in the battle of 6VDT, and my Stabber Fleet Issue somehow survived (probably because nobody cared enough to shoot the scrub flying an SFI in a Zealot fleet, but whatever). I still have that ship. Eventually it will get blown up, or sold, or otherwise taken off my hands. I may get another later on, and I may fit it the same way, but it will not be the same one I flew in that fight. It will be identical in every way, but it will probably have never even been in that system, especially not on that day in that fleet flown by this pilot. That is "emotional attachment".
From what I can tell, Z wants something on the level of "this is the ship I flew in this fight". Unfortunately, I don't think that kind of connection is possible in an FPS where death and item loss are so much more frequent. The best we can do is "I used this type of suit, fit like this" - functionally equivalent, yes, but the connection just isn't there on that level. Unless after every death the remains of your suit are somehow transported back to the MCC/CRU/etc and reconstructed in the time it takes you to respawn... you got a new suit. It ain't the same one. And it probably took materials to make, which cost money.
Honestly, if the Tony Stark room is the only reason for giving us unlimited suits, you might as well not bother. It just makes so much more sense for the suits not to be free. Give us BPOs, sure, but make them real New Eden BPOs that cost money to manufacture. If a frigate can be built in hours (or is it minutes? I don't into industry), a dropsuit can probably be built in seconds, so we get our replacements fast, they just cost money.
Z's progression is the only thing about Legion that gives me doubts. The rest has me totally stoked!
@CaptainCrutches
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