It seems that people have the wrong impression of exactly what is going to happen with the new role system.

So if the only way to unlock Assault Rail Rifles is to first skill into the Assault Role, that does not mean that you can only use Assault Rail Rifles with the Assault Dropsuits.

I can put a ton of SP in logistics, unlock my Amarr logi near the end of the tree and then stop there, start putting SP into the Assault Role and unlock Assault Rail Rifles. I can now take that Assault Rail Rifle and put it on my Amarr Logi suits. CCP Z has already confirmed that this is how he intends for the system to work.

We will still be able to make the exact same types of fit we are making today, its just a different progression path through the skill tree to get those same modules.

I for one would hate to be called names by strangers on the Internet.

Loved this. I agree completely.

I just explained why it is not an excellent post, good sir.

Current system is bad, we get it. That's why I suggested redoing it but better.

The new progression system is, quite honestly, a disgrace.

It insults the intelligence of the community.
It dishonors the traditions of New Eden.
It is being implemented in place of things that would actually help the game.
It panders to the dumb who can't understand a game with depth.
It restricts the freedom of the players.

Why would you think that it's a good idea, CCP? Because the old system was bad? That's because you broke it!

Kevall, come on man!

It does NOT take longer to add a GUI overlay to a currently existing system than to delete the old system and start from scratch with a completely new system and GUI.

Not in person, no.

Though if I was in charge of a company I wouldn't want my producer crapping on its products.

I-¦m assuming dropsuits and vehicle BPOs will be available for purchase with AURUM then?

Regarding: Common, Uncommon, and Rare.

I am assuming that Common would be the Proto gear we use now. Would Rare be Officer Weapons? What would be an example of Uncommon?

I just had an idea.

Take CCP Z's idea, then suggest, on the EVE Forums, to implement that same system into EVE Online.

We'll use the EVE community's outrage over the idea to show CCP Z how bad he is at New Eden.

I happen to question them because we know nothing substantial about this research other than the claim of it's existence and the assertion that the proposed system is a sensible response to its findings. Yes, the current system isn't perfect but that doesn't mean that the proposed system is the only, let alone optimal, alternative.

We have no idea what they've been looking for, we don't know how they decided to look, we don't know what they've found and, most critically, we don't know how their findings ended up informing the proposed design other than the blunt assertion that people cannot handle the current system.

This is important because, as several others have pointed out, assuming the research was sound and accepting CCP Z's et al. stated conclusion still doesn't tell us why a visual guiding frame (ISIS) wrapped around the current system, or really anything else that doesn't change the actual progression on any fundamental level, wouldn't work

Also well elaborated in multiple posts is the fact that central concepts such as "no respecs" being the default position, players having full freedom of their skill choices without being soft-locked into arbitrary roles and the full distinction between your character and whatever gear he might be using at any given time are discarded, seemingly, without further consideration of their inherent place within the existing universe that is New Eden.

Based on that. The proposed changes require some prior justification that goes beyond "95% of the people don't get it". Providing insight as to what this research is all about would be a reasonable first step.

Edit: Yes I get and agree with your overall call for some civility and appreciation. Yes I am deliberately confrontational because getting some info on why CCP Z chose the proposed design is vital in My opinion.

Snip

I know we've had a few disagreements in this discussion. I drafted up a progression proposal and made a thread. The goal is to retain the depth of the existing system but make it more accessible for new players. As the CEO of the most well-known and respected organizations for training new players, and as a CPM 1 candidate, I would really appreciate any feedback you might have. You would probably have some unique and useful insights.

I know we've had a few disagreements in this discussion. I drafted up a progression proposal and made a thread. The goal is to retain the depth of the existing system but make it more accessible for new players. As the CEO of the most well-known and respected organizations for training new players, and as a CPM 1 candidate, I would really appreciate any feedback you might have. You would probably have some unique and useful insights.

Since we're on the topic of Progression and it's a very hot topic from the looks of it, I have a proposal that CCP Z should read up on.

Project Legion Skill Progression Proposal - By Maken Tosch

It's probably not as elaborate as others have posted, but it's a proposal that I feel needs attention, particularly CCP Z's. It would be nice to compare our ideas to see how much of us are on the same page. Also, my proposal comes with a twist. Hope you like it.

It's certain at this point that one of the very few things that kept Dust alive was the complexity it offered. What killed it was the lack of understanding that complexity. There were absolutely NO TOOLS in place to aid the player in better understanding the progression system let alone understand the myriad of complex mechanics that were not immediately apparent.

No, I'm not talking about the 3rd party tools. I'm talking about in-game tools. 3rd party tools are great but there is no way for the new player to know for certain that those tools exist unless they visit the forums which brings me to my next point.

According to Dennie Fleetfoot (since he often gets in touch with CCP) it seems that the vast majority of the players that exist in the game don't really visit the forums... at all. If I recall correctly it was like somewhere in the neighborhood of 75-85% of the player base. That's a huge chunk of the players that don't read the forums at all. That means:

1. They won't know of any of the 3rd party tools available to them right now at this moment.
2. They won't know of any of the incoming changes that are happening to Dust which means they also don't know that Dust is now on the back burner of development as a result of Project Legion.

This is why Dennie switched gears and focused mainly on sending out in-game mails to the D-Uni members compared to posting on the forums. This way, especially considering that Dust University is among some of the largest corps out there at the moment, the information about anything happening to Dust can be disseminated to a much wider audience effectively to those who never frequent the forums. Now if you happen to be one of those people who go out of their way to ignore EVERY piece of mail sent to you, then obviously there is no hope in informing you.

HOLY CRAP! WTF?

As someone else mentioned earlier in this thread, certificates are a valid option.

Certificates could be sets of skills that, if you don't quite understand the skill tree, would allow for a much simpler guideline by which to train skills. Combine this with something akin to ISIS and you have a recipe for simplicity itself.

And Still nobody has answered my question: Why is a skill system that restricts people is better than one that is open, improving that one, and then EXPLAINING THE GODDAMN SYSTEM

It's been a while already.

@CCP Z

What's the news so far in regards to posting the full details (graphs, powerpoints and all) of the skill tree you have planned for us? When is it coming out? Many of us posted out details of what we think it should be. Now it's your turn.

EDIT: For the record, I'm not asking for such details just for the sake of criticizing it. Far from it, I'm just saying that perhaps by showing the skill tree you're working on it might help alleviate the confusion that we see here in the forums and hopefully answer the questions that were left unanswered since the progression presentation at Fanfest 2014. We are obviously trying to work with you here to make sure this goes as smoothly as possible so it's only fair that you work with us as well.

Thank you.

Hey guys,

Sorry it took me so long to get back to you. The current focus is on making the Market, so I was really busy!


I agree with all of you guys on that. Our current NPE is bad so we are working on a new and much better one. This will solve a lot of the complexity issues we are seeing in the game right now. Overall Progression still is much more than just NPE.

Right now our Progression system is the center of our Economy Flows. As CCP_Rouge said during his presentation, we want a Player Driven Economy, where you loot your gear and then sell it to other players. This Progression will be the base on how loot will be distributed, on how the overall economy will work.

Thanks again for your feedback, it is helping us a lot!

Z

But that is completely possible with what he is proposing (the role based system). It appears that this role based system is borrowing heavily from Valkyrie as well as they just recently moved from a class to a role based system..

I appreciate the visual distinction, for one thing.

If a person is running proto I can tell right away he is a bigger threat than the scrubs surrounding him. This allows me to make an intelligent decision about who, and how, to engage.

If every tom **** and jerry is running proto, but some people are running it with militia mods and some are running with proto mods, I can't make that immediate distinction. It's bad battlefield intel.

Of course, back in the day CCP were a lot better about making proto colors obvious. Now, it's really rather difficult sometimes. Like the difference between a Gal Sent proto or advanced is hard to tell from a glance.

Um, CCP Z? Are you currently busy? If you're alive, please post.