No, weapon types will be linked to Role and not necessarily Race. You will end up with 2 different Rail Rifle depending on the race though.

This makes sense, as long as you can turn it off and do free-hand skilling.

The skillback booster idea is not what you think. Here, take a look at this link that originally brought it up.

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=86041&find=unread

This basically allows you to remove SP from an unwanted skill book but at a pace equal to how you passively gain SP and your passive SP is disabled for the duration of the booster so you won't earn SP while removing SP. It's a fair system that appeases both the anti-respec and the pro-respec crowds.

Interestingly enough, there appeared to be quite a number of pro-respec folks who don't like this idea.

I like this idea. Keep in mind that I'm well known for hating respecs in general. That says something.

If new players can't even understand something so simple, you probably have bigger problems than that.

Z's system isn't self exploratory-it removes the need for explanation by forcing you down a path to a role rather than explaining the roles before you choose. Limiting options and the ability to make your own role from the beginning =/= explaining anything better...it's just giving you less ways to skrew up.

As an EVE player, I could relate to the original skill tree easier than some---nothing backing that up except talk around the forums at the time. That's not to say that I found it efficient, pleasing, or technically easy to understand, just that I could relate to it without much effort. It was pretty bad though knowing its purpose and how little there was to help non-EVE players relate. I mean in design.

Transition to the later node-based graphic skill tree was awkward. At first glance I didn't want to bother with it because I already understood the original. Now though, the later is all that I use.

I do want to point out though that the core concept is the same, only the representation of that concept has changed. I think your specific question and the conversations that may branch from it could cover many subtle shifts, but at the core, I think EVE players are arguing to keep the concept within the EVE realm of thought, just have better representation of how that translates in a FSP mindset---not knocking one or the other. It FEELS (again, without much backing that up either except talk around the forums) that the concept is shifting a bit too far. Here's a Mario universe game but.. without mushrooms. Kinda. lol?

I think I may be trying to answer another post by burying it into my reply here. If I missed your point, sorry!

I think you need to take a look at the skill names in EVE, as a lot of them says exactly what the skill does. Especially the drone tree. Also, unlocking things in Dust is basically the same as in EVE. skill requirements are a little different, but otherwise it's the same layout.

^ No, I think that's a fair point (zdub). Honest.

Trimming the fat isn't bad. But I do think that relationships were simply never made between skills and their use. Or at least those relationships were never made clear within the interface. Unless a merc had prior EVE knowledge of going to the prereq tabs to see what required what to gain access, that player would be lost I imagine. Personally, I just don't think it was thought out to begin with. The devs understood it, they were programing it. But understanding of a thing doesn't inherently mean one can teach it. I went with the lesser of two evils and I'm fine with it.

Like I noted in a post a few pages back, we can debate day and night over this but until we all can see an actual roadmap and framework, we're all just speculating.

Still though, good point.

Give the player tools and they-¦ll do amazing things. Minecraft being a perfect example.

If the purpose of the game is to dumb down a little bit to appeal the masses, they-¦ll neither have the masses nor the challenge.

It's the openness of the skill system that makes it easier to do the sandbox things though.

And this is entwined with the skill progression. The way things look like in Z progression, i don-¦t think i-¦ll be able to do crazy things like this.

And to be stuck in a role where skill bonus is not a differential, TF2 is a lot of fun.

But they all have bonus for somethng in the game.

Industry: Allows basic operation of factories. 4% reduction in manufacturing time per skill level.
Astrogeology Skill at analyzing the content of celestial objects with the intent of mining them. 5% bonus to mining turret yield per skill level.
Mining Barge Skill at operating ORE Mining Barges. Can not be trained on Trial Accounts. (Buth when you go to the ships it enables, they all ahve bonus depending on the skill level of the Minnin Barge skill [Covetor: Able to equip Strip Miner and Ice Harvester turrets. 3% better yield for Strip Miners per level])

Unlike the stupid 1-3-5 some no bonus skills of Dust

Wait wait.

It-¦s not just an SP sink, there-¦s a progression down the road.

You first use Frigates
Then you can fly a Minning Barge
Then you can fly an Exhumer (T2)

Yes, the frigate bonus doesn-¦t apply directly to the Exhumer, but in order to use an Exhumer, you first used a frigate. It-¦s not a Sink, it-¦s a progression. (Like Frigate - Cruiser - Battleship, i don-¦t just jump in a BS)

The role system seems to "lock" certain skills down a path and you have to travel many many paths to unlock items that would be faster if you did it manually. (Like using Laser with Gallente suits instead of hybrid weapons)

The link i posted where a "role" would follow an "automated progression of skill" managed by the game (and hidden from the player), we get the "Roles" for new people, and we still have the skills for advanced players.

Don-¦t you think it-¦s a good compromise?

See, here's the thing with that: it's not the same thing. It would rather be like requiring you to get a Eagle or a Deimos to get T II medium rails, but you can still use it on any ship that can fit them.

Seeing as though they want you to go down a T II suit tree before getting a T II gun, it is like I just said.

Look, I get Z's reasoning behind it, and why you like it. But here's the thing: If at any point I'm forced to go down a tree just to get something that I want, and most of the tree has nothing to do with what I want, then Godin is not happy. My point is that if they took the time to actually explain the damn tree in the first place, then there would be no problem. Hell, simply having a class (because it's called the academy for a reason) teaching what all the trees do (ex. in the dropsuit command, you can unlock dropsuits *explains frame sizes*. Under the weaponry tree, you can unlock weapons *explains weapon sizes* etc.), then maybe people might get it?

How about an ak.0 with....

Just read this today.

I-¦m not saying it was the skill system that gave me the experience i described, but the skill system was part of the foundation of it.

When i lost my Raven to pirates in low-sec, it wasn-¦t the modules i cared about, it was my shinny recently bought ship that i saved money for a long time in order to do so. One click to jump, the locking sound and several shots later, and it was gone.

Gone

....

Progression is entwined with game Design, and game design is the soul of the game. You screw one up, it will impact the rest.

The Skill tree system in EVE is not an obstacle to the aquisition of different ships.

The skil progression system in Legion is specifically entwined with the aquisition of equipment and suits. Besides that, the suits are also infinite.

I can-¦t talk about the progression, the gameplay, and the game design, without talking about the skill progression system in Legion, that-¦s the main point. The foundation of the game is the progression system!

It-¦s not the progression that defines the gameplay, it-¦s the game design. But when the game design is attached to the progression, then the progression becomes an issue.

I din-¦t ****** up my fitting, i had a perfectly good missioning Raven that happened to go to low-sec and got blown up. The impact was that the SHIP that i trained for during months, that i spent a couple of weeks missioning to buy, was blown up and not replaced without more weeks of missioning to buy another one.

If a suit is permanent, what-¦s the attachment to it? Zero. Specially if a Suit is so powerful, that a "Prototype Caldari Assault equiped with a Stick of Truth +1" can beat a "Just started Caldari Suit with a +50 Purple Staff of Anal Probing that i bought on the market with real money after someone sold it after spending 2 weeks gringing to have a % chance of dropping it" (Don-¦t know if that-¦s the case, but seems like a good business model unlike EVE where a good ship with poorly fitted equipment DIES to low-tech ships with good player and proper modules).

A Lvl 80 player killing 200 Lvl 1 with a single hand and the stater sword is WoW, not "New Eden".

Progression ends up defining the overall experience because it-¦s related to how your time is translated in power, and the power is measured in Suits (tied to roles, tied to progression) and equipment (tied to salvaging, hopefully tied to manufacturing from said salvage).

We can-¦t talk about Legion and it-¦s overall gameplay experience without talking about progression in it-¦s current apparent form.

Having a cost makes people plan how much they-¦ll buy. Having a market /manufacturing, makes people plan how much they-¦ll buy, how they-¦-¦ll get it, who-¦s gonna supply how they-¦ll transport, how they-¦re going to secure the transport and the storage of said items.

"Major Heist at NLO-3Z IV - "Okinawa" District"

Today Capsuleer forces were surprised with a bold move that cleared the stocks of planetary equipment worth 15 Billion ISK at the staging point system "NLO-3Z", the Headquarters of [+ülliance Name] ground forces. Invading elements managed to bypass all stellar and planetary defense systems, and descend into the planet-¦s orbit with an unknown ammount of MCC-¦s in an masterfully planned operation that took 2 hours, 500 mercenary lives, and the pride of said Alliance."

It-¦s not only about the "ISK cost", otherwise there would be Titans in every corner.

It-¦about the ISK cost + Logistics + Manufactuing + Securing the Location + Time + Material Costs = Titan (2 Months + Several Billion)

This point is important to follow the reasoning.

You can sell batches of 1000 suits for 1m (making it virtually "unlimited"), i don-¦t care, but it has to have COST be it in time - money - items - work, because there-¦s a holistic system going on with different players doing different things.

Same thing for Vehicles, in a larger scale.

The meaning it-¦s not only on the equipment itself, the meaning comes from the logistical chain, the time, and the effort invested to get something.

If you-¦re asking what-¦s the difference, you haven-¦t read that it-¦s not about ISK cost alone but the logistical chain behind it, the EFFORT of doing it.

If a person didn-¦t stockpiled enough Suit (cheap or not) and a battle happens over a district, and there-¦s no suits available neither on the district/planetary/station market hub, they should fight with militia suits and militia equip because they were stupid enought not to plan ahead.

If you consider Industry a bloat, then we-¦re talking from very different perspectives.

"I see nothing about consumable weapons that adds to the game play of Legion."

Your reasoning isn't wrong in that it does follow when viewed in isolation but you can rephrase it to include every other item with little or no modification as long as you overlook the fact that it's logical conclusion necessarily begs the question where to stop and why.

I appreciate the visual distinction, for one thing.

If a person is running proto I can tell right away he is a bigger threat than the scrubs surrounding him. This allows me to make an intelligent decision about who, and how, to engage.

If every tom **** and jerry is running proto, but some people are running it with militia mods and some are running with proto mods, I can't make that immediate distinction. It's bad battlefield intel.

Of course, back in the day CCP were a lot better about making proto colors obvious. Now, it's really rather difficult sometimes. Like the difference between a Gal Sent proto or advanced is hard to tell from a glance.