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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 28 post(s) |
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Posted - 2014.05.14 21:58:00 -
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CCP Z wrote:Quote:With a PC game can't you do both the new easy progression and keep the lvl 5 system so we can just get what we want since we know what we want. Yes we could keep the 5 levels. From the studies and the research we made on DUST, people seems to not understand it. ThatGÇÖs why we want to remove it.
First, this is my first time reading through this thread so my apologies for jumping in at this point if someone else has already addressed it. I will continue reading, but wanted to mark this before losing it in the 7 or so pages that are still growing. Too, even if it is already commented on or discussed, at least my post may help reinforce anyone else's post on this specific topic.
With that said, it seems illogical to me the cause and effect relationship used as justification for the new progression concept---or at least the removal of the current progression. Perhaps I am misunderstanding (likely) or simply do not have access to all data sources used to come to this conclusion (highly likely), but it seems to me short-sighted to remove something because players do not understand something.
I understand that confusion may lead to frustration which, in turn, may lead to a poor gaming experience that may cause uninstalls, account cancellations, or potentially bad PR. I get that. I also understand that perhaps a larger portion of the player base may find the current system (or another similarly designed progression, i.e., EVE: Online) confusing---larger than I assume. I don't have stats. What I understand more though, is that confusion is inevitable without education.
I have a feeling (based on closed beta experience; watching the community play, react, and criticize; CCP's consistency to be seemingly selective over their methods of communication with IRC-island discussions over forum threads [I still love you, CCP, in my special codependent way]; and the mass of player-led educational resources), that LEGION may suffer similar pains as DUST514 because the core issue is not being addressed still. Why do you think players have taken it upon themselves to create tutorial threads, blogs, and videos? Obviously they love the game and wish to give back to the community to see the potential of this game realized, but more I think it's because it simply does not exist in-game.
Are players confused as to what weapon, suit, skill, etc., they should choose to accomplish long-term X, Y, or Z goals? You're damn right they are because nothing has been explained to the new player what does what, or what to do with your NON-EXCHANGEABLE skill points before dropping them forever into something that just sounds like a bad-arse thing like Swarm Launchers. As someone posted recently, the first screen for each item we see is lore instead of what the function and specs are of that particular gear. Even still, not all of the specs are listed that could be used to make an informed decision. No guidance is given on where your skill points really come from, that they are non-refundable, how to navigate the market and research the PREREQUISITES of your gear before purchasing them only to find you cannot fit them---assuming the new player is able to figure out how to navigate the fitting screen.
A core problem is new player experience, and the severe lack of educational development. Sure, players are providing this---in a vacuum left by CCP---and new users can research quite a bit of material to learn if they choose to do so. What new player is going to know how to do this? What new player is going to bother? While I accept that perhaps this in and of itself may not resolve the overlying issue that your progression change is aiming for, education is sorely lacking. Education will go a long way to bridge the gap. This is something that has been requested since Closed Beta and will be needed regardless of whatever skill progression is decided upon. If not, then I'm honestly not sure what good a redesign will do. Forest for the tree type stuff, this is.
With a new system not heeding the dangers and warnings of a lacking educational experience for new players, not only do you risk maintaining the same level of new player confusion, but you also risk alienating the older experienced players that have built characters on a relative standard for two or so years. The support and experience that that player base can offer is very strong, in spite of the petulant rantings flooding the DUST514 GD forums currently.
I love DUST. I hope to love LEGION at least equally, SoonTM. Perhaps I'm way off base here, that happens a lot, trust me; but it just feels off, at best, to use resources to rewrite something that could be better resolved by taking a bit of time to educate the new player. That's not to say the current system is perfect, far from it. Sorry, I wanted to put that out so as not to sound so one-sided here. I come from EVE. There was a lot done in DUST514 that made me twitch in doubt and wonder as to how anything in the EVE universe could be.... this far removed from its own origins. I hope Legion doesn't dare go farther down that path and away from the core that is its big sister, EVE.
.........
Eh, I've gone on too long. I hope you take my meaning in all of this and that you (someone? anyone?) actually made it through :) Love you all over there, and hope for the best. Trying hard not to be jaded, so please forgive me if I come across as such. I actually am very excited to see what Legion may become.
meow. and all that.
- me.
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Posted - 2014.05.14 22:27:00 -
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Vell0cet wrote:byte modal wrote:[quote=CCP Z] Perhaps I'm way off base here, that happens a lot, trust me; but it just feels off, at best, to use resources to rewrite something that could be better resolved by taking a bit of time to educate the new player. You're not off base at all. I think you're right on the money (literally and figuratively). I thought the same thing about their internal tests. Of course they're going to be confused if they haven't been educated about how the system works. Once you get the basic idea, it's actually pretty easy to grasp. An "ISIS" equivalent would do wonders here.
Not to try to farm a like or two in conversation, but yeah, you're right. I come from EVE. I've already been put through the ringer over there in DAYS worth of tutorials and "wtf" spasms. Porting over to DUST514, while awkward at first due to its differences, was pretty easy to grasp---ONLY BECAUSE I WAS ALREADY TAUGHT HOW TO THINK THIS WAY!!! I can't even begin to imagine what an ignorant new player is facing. That's ignorant as in without understanding, not stupid.
Now I don't think that DUST needs such an elaborate tutorial system as EVE, but there needs to be more than nothing. No, I don't really count those 3 or so academy accomplishments as educational. Before I'm even placed into the academy, put me in a firing range with all militia weapons available to test fire on dumb targets. That would tie in enough to the FPS shooter thought process and provide a free experience with militia-grade weapons. click each to read a brief 2-line description at most, an option to test fire, a link to a visual representation of that weapon's skill tree path (think EVE certificates in concept, but not so damn nerdy and spreadsheet-esque) explaining a general purpose of progression and how that ties to upper tier variants, and finally an option to purchase through market.
Be allowed to come back at ANY time, from merc quarters, to test any gear you may have previously had no interest in. Literally, a walk-in closet to try stuff out. Sounds familiar... where have I read this at.......
TEACH US!
Build it and they will come.
Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach a man to fish, and that man will be able to build a better fitting and will be less likely to rage-quit down the road. Just sayin'.
<3<3<3
- me.
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Posted - 2014.05.15 17:08:00 -
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mmmk.
I'm at work now. Forum chaos, GO!!!!!
<3
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Posted - 2014.05.15 17:26:00 -
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TrueXer0z wrote:
-snip'ish-
...
Change can be good in the right context. Growing pains are natural in the life of an ever evolving universe such as New Eden. Can we as a community accept another radical change? Especially to a system that yes, may be flawed in some way, but not enough to do a complete overhaul. So much time and effort is being put into something that doesn't really seem to be an issue for a lot of the players coming forward.
You and I of all people should know better then most. We both have spent well over a year interacting with new players. Countless hours talking and testing. Literally crunching numbers and putting in the time to get real feedback from new players and their concerns about things. Very rarely was the idea of the skill tree being overly complicated ever brought to our attention.
I think a lot of what upsets people is that we are seeing the cycle starting all over again and Legion hasn't even been green lite. Devs have grandiose ideas and ask for feedback on a product we haven't even really seen outside of a power point slide. Like I said before. It isn't even going to matter much since CCP Z has a idea of how he wants things to work. It doesn't really matter if we agree with what he is doing. It is happening. Nothing will change that outcome.
Where does this leave us? In the same exact situation that cause the community to start getting upset in the first place. Lots of Devs posting and it looks sweet and feels good to see the blue tags, but the communication is jaded and more of a distraction while CCP get their stuff in order.
We don't want to be so toxic CCP. We want to help you make a game that people will enjoy for years to come. You have the best opportunity to collaborate with a community that is painfully loyal. Please, guys...seriously.....please...listen to what your community is telling you. We are trying to break down the walls of CCP to create something amazing. Allow that to happen.
Emphasis mine.
Hey. I like you. I like DustUni. Generally, I enjoy most all posts from those that carry your tag. Whether I agree or not, I enjoy reading the posts and following the logic used to get to whatever point you guys try to make. I know it's neither here nor there, but wanted to throw that out. Keep it up, for whatever that's worth.
It may be more that I just don't want to get to work =\
Either way, thumbs up! lol. ok.... back to it.
- me.
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Posted - 2014.05.18 21:07:00 -
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Himiko Kuronaga wrote:
I have seen no proof whatsoever that a lack of understanding the skill system plagued the majority of players. I believe they simply quit because the game was horrible and, by default, never got a chance to learn the skill system as a result.
I have seen no proof whatsoever that a horrible game resulted in players quitting due to not having a chance to learn the skill system. I believe it was a meteor that struck the earth wiping out a significant of the potential player base.
;) I'm just messing with you. Seriously though, no one has seen proof of any cause and effect relationship. We, as informed players (as informed as we can be, being players and not devs) can only speculate based on experience, common complaints, and attention to in-game or forum discussions. That's about as good as it gets here. I see something, and I try to troubleshoot it with my limited understanding of context. Maken did the same. You are doing the same. It's impossible for us all to draw the same conclusions. Instead, we take internal measurements to see what we each assume, compared to what others are assuming, and try to connect the dots as best we can.
At the end of the day though, it doesn't really matter whether we're right or not. It's not our game to develop =(
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Posted - 2014.05.19 15:57:00 -
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Just curious, but has anything been posted or detailed beyond the fanfest presentation? I've seen a few player's post a few general outlines showing what they each hope for, wondering if any of that hierarchy might pull some dev-level attention. Hell, I've even started drawing up one of my own. But honestly, is there anything dev-side offering more insight to the intended logic or structure of player progression?
While it's nice to see ideas popping around, to discuss hypothetical development and structure, to be inspired by what others are bringing to the conversation, we are only bringing it to a table (not necessarily the table).
In your opinion, is this thread serving any productive purpose? I mean, apart from a laser pointer to our cat/DUST, easily distracted, minds?
I personally find this very civil discussion inspiring. Towards the player base, that gives me comfort, especially in context of so many negative troll-bait threads I've read through during the life of DUST. But as positive of a discussion that this may be for us, I can't help but feel that we are just spinning our wheels fruitlessly. I'm still trying not to be cynical with all of this, but really, what's the point of this?
  
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Posted - 2014.05.19 16:53:00 -
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DAMIOS82 wrote:Well the thing is CCP does listen to a degree. It is still there game and they will do what they think is best, but they also try and pick out a few idea's from the crowd and try to incorporate it into the game. They have done this with EVE alott and even with Dust beta. So it's not pointless, but it's like saying well maybe, just maybe.....if they agree with it. So if enough gamers try to make the same point, it is more then likely they will have a better look at it.
Oh don't get me wrong, I think we're basically on the same page. I've been in EVE since 2006 and here since Closed Beta. I'm familiar with CCP. However, specifically with DUST, my view has become a bit jaded. You say tomato, I say to-MAH-to. I get that my perspective may be skewed, hence the question to begin with. I'm more curious to know what, if anything, has been posted regarding this specific path.
I mean outlines of logic for us to gain perspective so that our ramblings out here on the forums can actually mean something beyond wishful thinking. If they're building a track moving north to south, it does us no good really to comment our opinions on a track moving west to east. Sure, there may be a few random ideas that spring up that might influence a subtlety here or there, but for the most part we're not doing anything useful except for discussion for discussion's sake.
With that, I'm hoping that I've missed the obvious: a post outlining dev intent, more than the fanfest PPT. I've seen player posts more detailed content, but all of that, while nice and informative, is and can only ever be hypothetical. Our time would be better spent reacting to and offering detailed suggestions based off in-game (and historical) experience, rather than patting each other on the back for what may honestly be brilliant ideas, if only they had any place whatsoever within the dev's concept of progression. Until we see that as concrete, there's not much good that can come of this other than disappointment when we discover we all were way off base in our assumptions that fueled this discussion to begin with. =)
Hey, that's negative. I know. Again, it's why I'm asking for opinions---to counter this. I love DUST and I imagine I will love Legion as well, just look at any post of mine and you should have a good idea of where I stand. My good nature still though shouldn't mask my concerns. Patterns are patterns because they are repeated. I'm not the only poster in this thread that sees that and recognizes a repeated pattern forming yet again---posts from far more passionate and dedicated players than I.
Either way, I hope for the best. My expectations are average, unfortunately. I'm still excited and wish they would just greenlight this mother, already! >=P~
- me.
edit: I guess I'm replying more to your previous post along with this one.
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Posted - 2014.05.20 15:04:00 -
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^ lol. I like you.
"...investing unreasonable time and effort and real money trying to win. ITryHard."
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Posted - 2014.05.20 18:56:00 -
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Godin Thekiller wrote:Restricting us is not slightly, but I get your point 
lol weeeeeelllll....... in context of what I was replying to, hoping that IF it must be dumbed down, then fingers crossed it's open to evolve. To be clear though, I want EVE-style progression, dag nabbit!!!11!!11!
^.^
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Posted - 2014.05.20 21:08:00 -
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Godin Thekiller wrote:Well, that's the point we're trying to point out I guess, that it doesn't need dumbing down, just improvement and a actual explanation.
100% ...wait. I thought there was a thumbs-up icon thingy?! maybe that's another forum =\
lol. either way, I'm with you.
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Posted - 2014.05.20 21:58:00 -
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Godin Thekiller wrote:byte modal wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:Well, that's the point we're trying to point out I guess, that it doesn't need dumbing down, just improvement and a actual explanation. 100% ...wait. I thought there was a thumbs-up icon thingy?! maybe that's another forum =\ lol. either way, I'm with you. top right of each comment there's a like button with a thumbs up. 
lol smartass.  I know THAT, how else do you explain all theses notifications of, "byte modal liked your forum post bla bla" haha. No, I mean thumbs-up icon like the default row of emoticons. Ah, I'm thinking of the Optima forums =\
Well... mystery solved at least. 
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Posted - 2014.05.22 20:04:00 -
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Auorra wrote:I'm new to EVE Online as well as new to DUST 514.
I'm a little concerned at starting a new game only to hear that it's going to be shut down. I'm not a huge fan of FPS's on the PC because I cannot afford to buy the joysticks and extras needed to really play the games. I don't have a PS Move. But it would appear to be something of great aid to an FPS on consoles.
I guess what I am asking is if it worth investing my time any further in DUST. I don't want to play a game that is going to be yanked away in a few months. Nor do I want to put any money in to it for AUR for the same reason. I'm hoping for an official CCP person to respond to this. I'm well aware of what players are going to tell me. However colorfully they do so.
If you are looking for feedback on this new Legion game, I can only say one thing: if you are going to include tutorials, you need to make them more new player friendly. The EVE franchise as a whole is not very kind to new players and can really be improved in how and what it teaches.
Hoping for an answer back.
You're going to get different answers depending on the context of those willing to reply to this. Not sure it's the right thread though, to be honest as the conversation can easily shift off to this very weighted topic instead of the OP. You might find more conversations like this on the DUST514 General Discussions, as opposed to the LEGION General Discussions here.
With that said though, it really depends on your perspective and how willing you are to consider other perspectives. My PS3 retail games general cost $20-60US and last me 30-45 days average before I am bored. Using that for my point of reference, I have zero problem playing DUST and even buying AUR from time to time to keep me stocked on the gear and boosters that I like. I've spent a bit over $100US here, and have been playing for nearly 2 years. I think that's a more than fair return on investment. Especially considering I coulddrop $20 for a 2-hour movie with popcorn and a Coke.
Are boosters worth it? Again, it depends on how you want to look at it. For me, I use the boosters to compensate for my lack of time to give to the game---time that if not at work, might be spent grinding SP to reach whatever suit or item to help my game or to expand my capabilities. AUR boosters help me reach that state just a bit faster, so for me being able to gain access to that last CK.0 is worth it to me.
I'm not looking long term. I just want to fit a good weapon, some mods, and a good cloak. Hitting that was my goal, so for me the value spent (time and money) was well spent. Other players may consider their investment to pay off years later. Again though, it comes down to time-in compared to cost, compared to the cost of relative forms of entertainment. How many hours of fun am I getting out of whatever cash I'm willing to drop? How many hours of entertainment in the here-and-now are you getting? Find your limits and go from there.
At this point you really have to look past all the potential hype that DUST was trying to bank on and play the game to enjoy it for what it is now, not down the road. Hey, I still play Chrono Trigger from time to time, or DUNE on my old Genesis EMU. Neither of those have a future either. Just my $0.02.
All the best...
- me.
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Posted - 2014.05.27 21:25:00 -
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Angeal Wolfbane wrote:Okay. Let me make something clear to all of you. I would like CCP to answer each of these comments to prove to me that they really care and are not trying to steal our time we put into DUST 514.
Number 1: This supposed game "Project Legion" has not even been green lighted yet. So why are all of you putting so much hope into this game that is not even in the making.
Number 2: CCP you are completely ignoring DUST 514 and have literally spat upon the console players at Fanfest. Although that it is true that DUST 514 could have more potential on a PC platform, however, many of the beta players are angered because the company of CCP have totally abandoned us and got our hopes up from the very beginning and crushed it with this supposed "Project Legion". If you really care CCP, you would have at least added more land to Planetary Conquest and also gave us a player market to at least show that your loyal to your player base which has decreased rapidly. Oh, and you have also lost the respect of many EVE players because of your little stunt at FanFest.
Number 3: We are all getting tired of the word "IF". YOU HEAR ME CCP WE ARE TIRED OF IF! How do you expect people to be calm on the forums by giving us assumptions and guesses about what will happen in "Project Legion". If you all really want to save your franchise and if you really want to save your player base, which is hanging on by a thread, you better give us some real evidence, facts, updates to dust, and a date for "Project Legion" or you and this supposed new game of yours will fall.
I WANT ANSWERS! NOT ONLY FOR MYSELF, BUT FOR THE MANY PLAYERS THAT HAVE BEEN BETRAYED BY YOUR COMPANY! IF YOU ALL REALLY WANT TO PROVE YOURSELVES AS GAME DEVELOPERS ANSWER MY NUMBER OF PROBLEMS IF YOU DARE! THEN WILL SEE JUST HOW GREAT YOUR PEOPLE ARE!
"We" is a relative term here.
Hey, I've made my pissy-mood rib nudges all in this thread, but even with that I still did so while remaining on point to the OP, or at least to the general discussion taking place at the point of my comment. Mostly though, I showed respect.
To get to your points:
1. We have hope because whether it is made or not, it is an interesting thought exercise to share ideas with other players of similar interests and to, from time to time, see dev acknowledgments. Or at the very least find arguments against said ideas. Excitement comes in the potential that DUST alluded to. Frustration comes in the poor decisions on execution. Note, please, that I refer to management, not the dev staff. I work a day job where I wouldn't dare do on my own what we put out here at the office. Sadly, I know too well that decisions are usually made in a vacuum by those higher-ups that stumbled into a position of matter. It's not my work, technically, but the best work that I can provide given the conditions set around me. DUST showed potential, but was mismanaged (IMHO) and some really odd choices were made. Excitement returns knowing that if there will be continued development, it will done on a platform that 1) is better suited for the vision that is, and 2) is simply more familiar.
2. You've missed the boat by a few weeks. Go back to DUST GD and necro a few hundred posts that have already stated more eloquently or more trollery (take your pick) than what you are trying to retread here. Speaking as an EVE player, CCP still keeps my respect over all. Sure, I'm disappointed with how FF played out. I would assume many were. I can't speak for them, nor can you speak for me. Regardless, frustration over a singular event is petty given how long EVE has existed and how far it has evolved. As an EVE player, I get it. As a gamer in general, I can respect that. As an empathetic human being well past emo-riddled puberty, I can relate to making mistakes, attempting understanding, and offering forgiveness. If I were to judge everyone, every entity or group on poor execution, well, that would be a sad and lonely little world.
3. We? Hey, I get the frustration. Again, it was all over the DUST GD not long ago. You're preaching to the choir, though we've all heard the sermon a few times now. Most of us have put down the pitchforks and torches and accepted reality. It's really a better place to be. Regardless of what comes, I'm not the only one who actually enjoys playing the game. I will continue to do so until they unplug her. Yeah, there are things that infuriate me, but ultimately it's their game to develop or to burn. I paid money to play and I got my entertainment from it---money well spent given the cost to entertainment value. Done and done. Taking it day by day. If LEGION comes? Bonus. If not? It was a fun experiment and I'm happy to have been part.
regarding the ALLCAP section: wrong thread, wrong forum. Sorry =\
In through the nose... out through the mouth... slowly.
- me.
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Posted - 2014.05.28 05:50:00 -
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Angeal Wolfbane wrote:I'm sorry that you misunderstood me. I want more answers about this new supposed game that they say is in the making. I wouldpike for them to give us more answers and qunit these if statements. Its when they say, " if this game is part promising" shows me that they have no support or faith in their game. They have a lot of trust to when back if Project Legion is going to work. Because they slapped every DUST player in the face and that infuriates me.
Fair enough. But understand that they are devs. No matter how much they each may want to promise something, or hint at what they intend to do, it's really not up to them but the higher-ups I would feel.
While this may not be exactly what you are looking for, it is a good thread full of good back and forth of dev tests and ideas. Maybe you can find something inspiring there to help rebuild your faith? Link here
All the best.
- me.
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Posted - 2014.05.28 13:52:00 -
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I'll be honest. I think a lot of EVE players at one point or another have fantasized about having player-controlled crews on board in just such a scenario that you describe. That and being able to set foot on a planet's surface. While technically the EVE pilot cannot, DUST was a huge and happy compromise---at least for me. Let's see what LEGION has in store...
I think your post would get more attention though in the LEGION General Discussion forums here. This thread is mostly about discussion of skills and player progression/leveling. I'm afraid it may just get swallowed up here =(
Also, near the end of that thread I linked in my first reply to you, there was a conversation going on about how a LEGION merc would travel from Point A to B for battles. Mostly, it was about the battle finder system, but I think some people were commenting how they would like to see it realized. You might get attention there too with the idea. I still think your own post would get the most.
Either way, good luck and thanks for the conversation
- me.
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Posted - 2014.05.30 13:49:00 -
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steadyhand amarr wrote:Queation how are u going to solve a bad run leaves you with nothing and the player quits the game.
Legion IS NOT EVE please stop trying to make it EvE.2 that line of thinking will kill this game just as fast as it killed dust. Shooter fans are not intrested fullstop its great that you guys are but to 80% casual playerbase just wont care. So like it not legion needs to be diffrent and im ready to get militant on that please adjust your mindsets
Dust died because it was too complex for avatage joe who wants to shoot things. Speak to any shooter fan, simple easy to understand reward loops is what keeps us ingaged and a shiny thing to work towords.
Legion will attract a different kind of gamer who tolerate EvEs bull. Yes legion needs to stand out but Its not EvE so stop sourceing EvE on why we cant do things.
(if u dont believe me ask yourself why their are no pure shooter fans left here i think im the only non EvE player here sometimes and i hate EvE because i dont have time to spend weeks and months grinding out a magic number just for some nolife nerd to gank me and set me back to zero)
Ug im going to make a thread on this subject tonight this needs debate or legion will fail just as hard as dust
Make the thread, just bother to research your own assumptions before doing so.
Complexity alone didn't kill DUST. The game released to the world as an incomplete and seemingly rushed BETA.
- Imbalance
- Incomplete Racial Dropsuits
- Missing Weapon Classes
- Missing Racial Weapon Variations
- Poor Hit Detection
- Non-standard Skills (some gave bonuses, some unlocked gear, and some of THOSE only unlocked up to level 3)
- Slow Game Speeds
- TTK
- Non-intuitive Game Play (both direct and meta level) Due to ....wait for it.....
- >>> ZERO Explanation of Purpose, Logic, Intent, or Direction/Instruction
- Confusion Between BPO, ISK, and AUR Purchases
- Two DIFFERENT Skill Tree Representations (3, if you want to count all the skills polluting market items)
- Market Screens Polluted with Skill Requirements (visually chaotic and logically intimidating to new players)
- AURUM based market items that appear out of order with the would-be racial "alphabetical" order.
- No ability to see a direct comparison on affects of gear/modules to suits
- LAG
- ProtoStompTheYard
- ZERO reference to or use of Security Space to ensure new player transition
- Lock-Ups and Hard Freezes
- Scotty (or lack there of)
- Removal of Auto-squad to at least nudge new players into the system
.....
I will return to this to complete the thought and to return this diversion back to point lol, but damnit I'm at work and have to do some of that ;) I'll be back though....
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Posted - 2014.05.30 17:00:00 -
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ZDub 303 wrote:I'm curious... for those who are worried about Legion losing its 'EVE" feel. Did you prefer Chromosome's skill tree to Uprisings?
As an EVE player, I could relate to the original skill tree easier than some---nothing backing that up except talk around the forums at the time. That's not to say that I found it efficient, pleasing, or technically easy to understand, just that I could relate to it without much effort. It was pretty bad though knowing its purpose and how little there was to help non-EVE players relate. I mean in design.
Transition to the later node-based graphic skill tree was awkward. At first glance I didn't want to bother with it because I already understood the original. Now though, the later is all that I use.
I do want to point out though that the core concept is the same, only the representation of that concept has changed. I think your specific question and the conversations that may branch from it could cover many subtle shifts, but at the core, I think EVE players are arguing to keep the concept within the EVE realm of thought, just have better representation of how that translates in a FSP mindset---not knocking one or the other. It FEELS (again, without much backing that up either except talk around the forums) that the concept is shifting a bit too far. Here's a Mario universe game but.. without mushrooms. Kinda. lol? 
I think I may be trying to answer another post by burying it into my reply here. If I missed your point, sorry!
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Posted - 2014.05.30 18:23:00 -
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steadyhand amarr wrote:Oh dont get me wrong dust was a big bag of fail in many ways. But a lot of above could be tolerateed if players new what the **** was going on.
But yeh a lot of the above is was done because they treated the game like EvE i should no i was here from the start.
Also look at your list a big problem of dust is itcomplex not deep their is a difference and it started with how ccp wanted to do progresion. All of it traces back to the skill system.
Under no situation should need a video or txt to explain whats going on. Everything should be easy to follow and understand onlu getting complex near the end game, WoW was nearly flawless in this.
My big point is Dust514 tried to be EvE. Shooter fans dont want an EvE they want a persitant cod/ bf2142 so we need desgin the game around that understanding.
Fluff lore feel of new eden of course but we should not look to EvE on how to do things EvE is a space sim legion is a shooter they could not be more diffrent and i wont watch the same debats we had in closed beta repeat here.
Im also 4 banning EvE in any debate and stating you must look to other shooters as an example or make the argument stand on its own feet, saying its not new eden is a load of bull, legion is legion and the new kid is going to change the rules
Eh, a lot of that is my point. First let me be clear I don't want to sound like I'm just being a smart ass or anything lol. I'm just sharing a point of view here. Right or wrong ,eh wtf. Ya know?
That out of the way, DUST IMHO, never tried to be EVE. It was a jumble of random parts from EVE that had nothing to do with each other, let alone the concepts of EVE. much of my list isn't at all related to complexity. It was just a broken release. There are players coming from EVE that may play it no matter what just for branding's sake. Others because it's "different". I think that most though will see a jumbled mess of an interface without clear logic that links you from one thing to another conceptually, and they throw their hands up and move on. It was a free DL after all, so oh well. On to the next.
I don't want the extreme here, playing a dull spreadsheet FPS shooter full-on EVE mode. At least for me, I just don't want the EVE flavor to be so watered down and diluted that it no longer falls within the EVE Universe. Use only what you can afford to lose; skills that are universal allowing ONE character to play unique roles relative to the context of the game at hand (not single role, sub-tiered class-driven like warcraft); security space that matters for new players to integrate; a skill system that grows and evolves with the player; and a damn serious death penalty!
Hey, I still play WoW, but I play EVE to get the hell away from that too.
Again, I don't think we want an EVE clone. I'm sure some do, but I doubt that's the main argument. Search the forums, there are countless posts from capsulers clearly explaining what it is that they hope for to make a better, but still UNIQUE, FPS. I'm from Closed Beta myself, so ya.
And I don't necessarily disagree with you about needing a complex video or text block to understand; however, as a graphic designer, I totally understand how much that can be addressed by using a properly designed and thought out interface (I'm talking menu structure, navigation, hierarchy, etc.) if that were done right you probably wouldn't need anything more to understand the concept but maybe a shooting range or something to apply and test that concept.
You're also right that LEGION is not EVE, but as long as the game insists on being part of the EVE universe, there are core principles that really should be kept. Otherwise, why bother wasting the time? Just make another COD? I mean, honestly man? Why bother leveraging the EVE name at all? Just create a sister corporation and develop independently and done. I'd play that game too, but here we are. I guess my Mario without Mushrooms would better fit here =\
Idunno man. I get what you're saying, but disagree. I don't want EVE. I just want the concept to remain in tact. I also want the failure of a poorly implemented and unnecessarily bloated experience to stop being the justification of nixing EVE concepts. The two ARE different. That's like saying I'm never eating chinese food again because this Domino's pizza is the sux. Yeah, it does. So order the right thing next time ;)
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Posted - 2014.05.30 21:27:00 -
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^ No, I think that's a fair point (zdub). Honest.
Trimming the fat isn't bad. But I do think that relationships were simply never made between skills and their use. Or at least those relationships were never made clear within the interface. Unless a merc had prior EVE knowledge of going to the prereq tabs to see what required what to gain access, that player would be lost I imagine. Personally, I just don't think it was thought out to begin with. The devs understood it, they were programing it. But understanding of a thing doesn't inherently mean one can teach it. I went with the lesser of two evils and I'm fine with it.
Like I noted in a post a few pages back, we can debate day and night over this but until we all can see an actual roadmap and framework, we're all just speculating. 
Still though, good point.
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Posted - 2014.06.02 14:55:00 -
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Natu Nobilis wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:
I really don't know if there is a good Dust equivalent to a battle badger lol.
Killing Protosuits that didnt invest in good core skills while using Militia ones with good skills
eh... lol. OK, this morning is off to a strange start. Skimming through here to see what I missed over the weekend and you got my attention. Totally misread you and thought you said "killing prostitutes..."
carry on. carry on...
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Posted - 2014.06.02 21:23:00 -
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Natu Nobilis wrote:If we want an effortless game, forget the economy, manufacturing, logistics and market. All suits are unlimited, equip drop after we kill bosses,/salvage, we trade items between players and if i want to sell something i use an auction house. That would be an unique MMORPGFPS on the market. If you consider Industry a bloat, then we-¦re talking from very different perspectives. All i can see so far is a simplified skiltree that will be very easy for both players and Drinking Birds, a grinding system that is very similar to any hack/slash game out there, an auction house and a player trade window that will be called "market", in a fast paced action fps. NPE had several suggestions to be both player acessible and veteran fluid. The suit thing is attached to the skillsystem No idea what the Industry will (or won-¦t) do Market looks like player trade window and Acution house No hint on mechanics of PC, but it-¦s connected to the Industry (or lack of) Want to try something new? Sure. Different from the current system being completely broken. Really need to see more, but so far... Progression links to everything, that-¦s why this topic is (was) so populated. Again, CCP is the company, i-¦m a mere player, all i can do is talk about the game i-¦ve been expecting since 2009
That's it. Naming my first born Natu.
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Maken Tosch wrote:I just noticed... CCP Z has been awfully quiet ever since the recent bout of layoffs.
Came here to bump a thread for more attention then realized uh... it's a sticky 
Wow. I don't know how to read that. I saw the article and then the layoff news. I honestly am at a loss as to what to think or feel since, ...on all of this. I just keep typing and backspacing here because nothing that comes out really holds the weight that I feel this topic deserves. Nor does this process help clear my head of random thoughts that usually comes from the forced organization required to translate those thoughts to another.
Sure, I have been frustrated in the level of communication or lack of dialogue, but at the end of the day I get that it's not my game to build. I'll either enjoy the results or I will not. I will continue to hope for the best and see what comes. But if it's true that Z was part of the 49, wow. just wow. On a personal level, I hope not.
On a more general level I can't help but think wtf, CCP? Sh!t rolls downhill. I've learned that in my employment, sure. But learning that should come with perspective along side that realization---perspective that management at any level should damn well know before daring to take the reigns of any project. Sh!t may roll on down that hill because it's just damn easier to blame "those... down there" than to accept responsibility for one's poor decisions, mismanagement, or blatant ignorance of a product and its production requirements and constraints, but until the later is corrected, that same sh!t will just continue rolling on and on and on.... no matter how many rounds of layoffs or staff replacements occur.
I'm going to stop here out of fear of this turning into a rant, or worse, derailing this thread more than it has been already. Idunno, guys. Fingers cross and all that, I guess. For whatever it's worth, I've enjoyed reading most all of your posts (both player and dev alike) and being part of the conversations that I've put into, ever how minimal my part may be. Whether I agree with you or not, I respect and enjoy the debate.
We'll see what comes then, yes?
All the best,
- me.
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Posted - 2014.06.10 18:19:00 -
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Maken Tosch wrote:[quote=byte modal][quote=Maken Tosch]
Well, I just brought it up because of the shear coincidence I see here. Even though I have my disagreements with CCP Z on the issue of progression, I also personally don't want him to go as I want to give every Dev a chance to improve themselves. CCP Z did say he is taking in our feedback. I just want to see for myself if he really has changed his mind so far after the loooooooooong discussion we all just had.
of course. i didn't mean to imply anything in quoting your earlier post if i came across as that. it's just that i had noticed it too and used it as a springboard to branch off into my own frustrations. on mobile atm. hoping this reads better than on my screen here lol.
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