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![Alaika Arbosa Alaika Arbosa](https://web.ccpgamescdn.com/dust/img/character_creator/female_minmatar_128.jpg)
Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
1985
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Posted - 2014.05.16 17:46:00 -
[1] - Quote
I've heard that it will not be done, but I really think that you should just copy pasta the Eve Skills setup for Legion.
IMHO, it is a mistake to do otherwise.
I am not saying that It should be an exact mirror, just that it is similar enough in Dust now and it should stay this way for Legion.
If anything, you should make it more like Eve (include Leadership, Social and Trade skill trees).
Arzadu Akbar Motherfuckers!!!!
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![Alaika Arbosa Alaika Arbosa](https://web.ccpgamescdn.com/dust/img/character_creator/female_minmatar_128.jpg)
Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
1986
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Posted - 2014.05.16 18:15:00 -
[2] - Quote
Sarus Rambo wrote:Giant post incoming:
The progression system described sounds pretty terrible honestly. I've seen it described perfectly as a "WoW" like skill tree. Yes this is stupid easy to understand for new people, but it lacks any sort of complexity and depth. Does EvE box you into only using a certain weapon for a certain ship? No. You can fly a Battleship with Reps and small turrets if you want. Progression should be up to the player, and they should make their own decisions on what to be, you shouldn't make it for them. You need to take many more queues from EvE, not move farther away from it.
My vision:
Suits: Two tiers of suits per class of suit, mirroring Eves tech 1 and 2 system. Like in Eve, Tech 2 would be about 2x more expensive, and give the player advanced capabilities in some areas, while stifling the other areas. Basically turning the dial up on the strengths and weaknesses of the tech 1 suit itself. You pay for the greater strength in the area you excel, but still have to pay a whole lot more for it, and also increase the risk with the weaknesses involved. The strength of the tech 2 suit and its cost would be directly proportional to the advantage it gives the player. If a tech 2 suit beats a equally skilled player in a basic suit 5/1 times, it needs to be 5 times the cost. That's ISK balance.
Battles: This lobby stuff is stupid. The original idea that was pitched oh so many years ago was to have very large maps. You even see how some maps are connected now. These would be giant districts that people connect to battle in and leave once they are over, or even when they aren't over. Pushing forward and back on a much larger scale inside a map, somewhat longer battle times, yet still small enough not to be too ridiculous. These would make a difference on the planet as a whole. This needs to be realized, and the continuation of a matchmaking system isn't really the way to go. Progression should be about getting cool stuff that isn't just better then the stuff a noob gets initially, it should be about flavor and choice.
Weapons + Gear: All this stuff needs to matter and be relevant, not just HP gear. There should be no such thing as a direct upgrade, and modules need to be balanced based on effective value. Gear should have the same tech 1 and 2 system as suits, with tech 2 gear having the same ratio of advantages vs drawbacks as tech 1 gear.
NPC interaction: This ties into the Battlefield cleanup interaction. Once a district is taken, there should be a period of time that people can go and salvage and fight NPC drones to get salvage from the previous battle. There also should be specific drone controlled planets always open for NPC interaction and player interaction.
Passive ISK Generation: I've heard talk of industry in Dust for a long time. I don't think it really fits. If you want to build stuff, play EvE. Game item production already exists in a whole level of immense complexity there. The drone cleanup idea introduces a faucet for passive generation of ISK however. Instead of going to a planet, you should be able to buy drones and set them up to be sent to the planets of your choosing once a battle there has been completed. Your drones would be some of the drones (perhaps more powerful versions of the drones) people fight in their PVE salvaging operations. It would be a whole new dimension of PVE, considering you are still be destroying something player owned. Obviously the amount of ISK would be very small in comparison to a player who goes to the planet themselves.
Player market: Tie in with EvE on a small scale. EvE players should be able to sell Mercs all their gear. All production of gear should be produced EvE manufacturing side, then sold to Mercs. Mercs should only have access to this gear, and should be able to also sell this on an open market to other Dust Mercs
TL;DR: Make this game more like first person EvE with guns, and not first person WoW with guns. Only part of this post that I disagree with is the part about PIG (Passive Isk Generation). There should be 0 PIG, all income generation should be Active.
Give all players the ability to Actively generate Isk and then allow Alliances/Corps to tax their membership. IMHO, Alliance tax should be drawn from the Taxes that a Corp generates.
Ex: My corporation has a tax rate of 12.5%, say that my Alliance has a 10% tax rate. If my Corp makes 12.5k in tax revenue from me then my Alliance should get 10% of that giving them 1250 Isk and leaving my corp with 11250 Isk.
Arzadu Akbar Motherfuckers!!!!
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![Alaika Arbosa Alaika Arbosa](https://web.ccpgamescdn.com/dust/img/character_creator/female_minmatar_128.jpg)
Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
1987
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Posted - 2014.05.16 20:32:00 -
[3] - Quote
Sarus Rambo wrote:Maken Tosch wrote: In that case, it should be fine as long as you have to put in the effort (not just initially but every now and then). I guess I misread it originally. Sorry about that.
Lol ok, no problem. I think that idea is very EvE like. Very Risk vs Reward oriented, with plenty of choice thrown in there. Also, nothing should be pure Wallet ticks. It should give you a commodity which provides Isk through its sale on the player market.
Arzadu Akbar Motherfuckers!!!!
Closed Beta Bittervet Bomber
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![Alaika Arbosa Alaika Arbosa](https://web.ccpgamescdn.com/dust/img/character_creator/female_minmatar_128.jpg)
Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
1987
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Posted - 2014.05.17 00:16:00 -
[4] - Quote
My thoughts on how the Eve:Legion Progression should look.
Firstly, it should be mainly Passive SP gain with the Passive SP filling a queued skill (just like Eve). Active SP gain should be present, though not in the same fashion as we are currently accustomed to.
I strongly believe that we'd best be served by a "Practice makes Perfect" style of Active SP generation. We should be rewarded for using the things we use by getting better at using them. This would reward new players with the carrot of SP for simply being in a match and being active. This would also prevent vets from skilling up like a runaway train without diversification.
I know that there are those who will decry this method, though I honestly believe that it is the best route for Legion to take. It allows rookies to have the illusion of accelerated SP gain while discouraging vets from instantly achieving Prof 5 by roflstomping everything with a tried and true fit.
After a point, we stop growing taller and we start growing wider, it makes no sense that we should excel at using something we've never touched before.
It allows the player to control what they gain skill points in by choosing what skill to queue, what gear to fit, what dropsuits to use and what weapons to use.
The Skill Tree itself should remain largely unchanged in design, though with some minor tweaks to values (to bring it more in line with Eve's skill costs) as well as the addition of certain branches found in Eve that are not currently found in Dust (namely Leadership, Social and Trade).
Lastly, every skill should provide a benefit outside of any unlocks, there should be no useless skills. Even if said benefits are tied to the Dropsuits/Modules/Weapons rather than the skill itself.
Arzadu Akbar Motherfuckers!!!!
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![Alaika Arbosa Alaika Arbosa](https://web.ccpgamescdn.com/dust/img/character_creator/female_minmatar_128.jpg)
Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
1991
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Posted - 2014.05.17 23:48:00 -
[5] - Quote
Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:Cross Atu wrote:[quote=Jonny D Buelle][quote=Heinz Doofenshertz][quote=CCP Z] .... Respec & Remap discussion
CCP Z and other respec/remap posters... What are your thoughts on introducing an attribute type system into Legion? The attribute mechanic is a tried and true staple of MMO, RPG, and many FPS games. This could be a nice way of increasing depth and choice into the system. The way the EVE system uses attributes to accelerate skill learning (or perhaps in our case skill specific SP) could be a useful start point. Attributes could also be a nice way to have some passive bonuses that are agnostic of suit, role, module introduced. Example...you could build up a "strength / conditioning" type attribute that gave mild buffs to base speed, climbing, jumping, and perhaps lowered armor encumbrance penalty. This would be independent of the traditional Biotics skill branch. You could easily extrapolate for other applicable uses such as weapon accuracy, stamina, accelerated learning of specific skills. Thoughts on applicability to progression in Legion? I brought up Attributes back in Closed Beta.
I thought they were a good idea then and I still do. We should get the same Attributes as Eve characters (plus Strength, Dexterity and Stamina for obvious reason).
Arzadu Akbar Motherfuckers!!!!
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![Alaika Arbosa Alaika Arbosa](https://web.ccpgamescdn.com/dust/img/character_creator/female_minmatar_128.jpg)
Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
1994
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Posted - 2014.05.18 22:19:00 -
[6] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Starfire Revo wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:(an idea often proposed by the scrubby FOTM chasers). This is a bit of a tangent, but people who chase the optimal way to play are actually the opposite of scrubs. FOTM wouldn't be such an issue if balance was given a higher priority. Perhaps they aren't scubs then if they figured out an optimal way. But as you and me have seen first hand in Dust, a lot of those FOTM chasers end up being detrimental to the game as they often draw the attention of the "nerf-it" crowd who then often demand unwarranted nerfs to something that might not even be overpowered. I stopped counting over 2 years ago how many FOTMs we went through and how many times people asked for nerfs. Here is at least 5 I can remember from the top of my head. 1. Dropships Dropping (literally) 2. Dumb-Fire Swarms 3. The Rail Rifle 4. Cloaky Shottie 5. Redline Rail Tanks DTAR?
I will also disagree with the assertion that they aren't scrubs seeing as how if they truly were as elite as they claim they are, they'd be chasing sub-optimal ways to play in order to truly prove their eliteness.
Difference of opinions though I guess.
Arzadu Akbar Motherfuckers!!!!
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![Alaika Arbosa Alaika Arbosa](https://web.ccpgamescdn.com/dust/img/character_creator/female_minmatar_128.jpg)
Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
1994
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Posted - 2014.05.19 00:17:00 -
[7] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:Alaika Arbosa wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:Starfire Revo wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:(an idea often proposed by the scrubby FOTM chasers). This is a bit of a tangent, but people who chase the optimal way to play are actually the opposite of scrubs. FOTM wouldn't be such an issue if balance was given a higher priority. Perhaps they aren't scubs then if they figured out an optimal way. But as you and me have seen first hand in Dust, a lot of those FOTM chasers end up being detrimental to the game as they often draw the attention of the "nerf-it" crowd who then often demand unwarranted nerfs to something that might not even be overpowered. I stopped counting over 2 years ago how many FOTMs we went through and how many times people asked for nerfs. Here is at least 5 I can remember from the top of my head. 1. Dropships Dropping (literally) 2. Dumb-Fire Swarms 3. The Rail Rifle 4. Cloaky Shottie 5. Redline Rail Tanks CalLogi + DTAR? I will also disagree with the assertion that they aren't scrubs seeing as how if they truly were as elite as they claim they are, they'd be chasing sub-optimal ways to play in order to truly prove their eliteness. Difference of opinions though I guess. If that's the case, Wouldn't the PC master race do the same? IDK, ask them (though yes, following my logic, they would play on consoles to prove their superiority)
Arzadu Akbar Motherfuckers!!!!
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![Alaika Arbosa Alaika Arbosa](https://web.ccpgamescdn.com/dust/img/character_creator/female_minmatar_128.jpg)
Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
1995
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Posted - 2014.05.19 01:21:00 -
[8] - Quote
The Skill System isn't as broken as some believe, though NPE is FUBAR. Just because NPE is FUBAR doesn't mean that you need to rework the Skill System, it means you need to rework NPE.
Arzadu Akbar Motherfuckers!!!!
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![Alaika Arbosa Alaika Arbosa](https://web.ccpgamescdn.com/dust/img/character_creator/female_minmatar_128.jpg)
Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
1996
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Posted - 2014.05.19 02:21:00 -
[9] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Alaika Arbosa wrote:The Skill System isn't as broken as some believe, though NPE is FUBAR. Just because NPE is FUBAR doesn't mean that you need to rework the Skill System, it means you need to rework NPE. It isn't "as broken" as it seems. That part you are correct. But it still is broken regardless. It's not just the NPE (or lack of it in this case) that's the problem. Parts of the skill tree are absolutely useless. 1. Unlocking items only at levels 1, 3, and 5 results in some skill books having wasted SP on levels 2 and 4. Take a look at Active Scanner Operation as one example. Also, Dropsuit Command levels 4 and 5 are pointless as they don't unlock anything else after level 3. Even if it did unlock more items, there is a major problem brought up by my next point. 2. Some skill books don't give bonuses at all and only exist to unlock more skill books. This is wasteful in terms of SP. Gallente Light Frame for example only unlocks Gallente Light Frames suits but these suits don't offer any bonuses and they are more expensive than their role-based counterparts (WTF?). They exist only as stepping stones which only gets in the way and doesn't really show anything to the player about the suit in terms of its benefits and intended role. So even if you implemented a proper NPE system, it doesn't address the two issues I just brought up. If you scroll up through my responses here, I've addressed both of your concerns (at least with my opinion) earlier in the thread.
Arzadu Akbar Motherfuckers!!!!
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![Alaika Arbosa Alaika Arbosa](https://web.ccpgamescdn.com/dust/img/character_creator/female_minmatar_128.jpg)
Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
2004
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Posted - 2014.05.29 13:18:00 -
[10] - Quote
CCP Z wrote:I understand what some of you said: it is against some ideas we have in new Eden. I still think that we are doing that for the greater good. Not owning anything in a game is conter-intuitive for many people. It does not change anything on the ISK sink they were, we will just have to adjust other sinks.
If we get an Eve-style charaction creation process where we see ourselves outside of our Dropsuits and you drive home the idea of buying gear, it will only be counter-intuitive to the morons (which, lets be honest, do we really want the morons in Legion?).
Hell, you could even give us the option to go into battle without a dropsuit. It would be a sub-par setup (1 LW, 1 SA, 1G, 1E) and only available in certain situations (non-hostile environment temperate planets), but it could be an option and it would be a good reminder that we only own that which we spend our AUR/Isk on (though we only own the quantities that we purchase).
Stand apart from the other **** shooters on the market, if we wanted to play them, we would be playing them rather than Dust/Legion. There is no reason that we need to have our hands held in this way and IMHO it is the top of a slippery slope through the "BPO-ification" of all items because some simpletons ***** and moan about being consumers within the game and how they don't want to have to math.
If only you'd commit to ensuring your players understand how and why Dust/Legion stands apart you could forget this process of oversimplification.
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![Alaika Arbosa Alaika Arbosa](https://web.ccpgamescdn.com/dust/img/character_creator/female_minmatar_128.jpg)
Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
2012
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Posted - 2014.06.02 16:48:00 -
[11] - Quote
Natu Nobilis wrote:Having a cost makes people plan how much they-¦ll buy. Having a market /manufacturing, makes people plan how much they-¦ll buy, how they-¦-¦ll get it, who-¦s gonna supply how they-¦ll transport, how they-¦re going to secure the transport and the storage of said items. "Major Heist at NLO-3Z IV - "Okinawa" District" Today Capsuleer forces were surprised with a bold move that cleared the stocks of planetary equipment worth 15 Billion ISK at the staging point system "NLO-3Z", the Headquarters of [+ülliance Name] ground forces. Invading elements managed to bypass all stellar and planetary defense systems, and descend into the planet-¦s orbit with an unknown ammount of MCC-¦s in an masterfully planned operation that took 2 hours, 500 mercenary lives, and the pride of said Alliance." It-¦s not only about the "ISK cost", otherwise there would be Titans in every corner. It-¦about the ISK cost + Logistics + Manufactuing + Securing the Location + Time + Material Costs = Titan (2 Months + Several Billion) This point is important to follow the reasoning. You can sell batches of 1000 suits for 1m (making it virtually "unlimited"), i don-¦t care, but it has to have COST be it in time - money - items - work, because there-¦s a holistic system going on with different players doing different things. Same thing for Vehicles, in a larger scale. The meaning it-¦s not only on the equipment itself, the meaning comes from the logistical chain, the time, and the effort invested to get something. TL;DR:
If you're going to give us BPO anything, give us BPO everything. If you're going to give us BPOs in any case, make sure they have a Bill of Materials and aren't just "yay here's free stuffz!!!!"
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![Alaika Arbosa Alaika Arbosa](https://web.ccpgamescdn.com/dust/img/character_creator/female_minmatar_128.jpg)
Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
2015
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Posted - 2014.06.05 18:15:00 -
[12] - Quote
Sad link is sad.
RIP WoD
Guess I'll never get to play a False Black Hand Malk Anti....
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![Alaika Arbosa Alaika Arbosa](https://web.ccpgamescdn.com/dust/img/character_creator/female_minmatar_128.jpg)
Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
2015
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Posted - 2014.06.05 18:39:00 -
[13] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:I suppose we may have discouraged CCP Z for a long while. I haven't seen him post anything here recently. Hopefully this is because he is taking our advice and revising his ideas for Progression
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