Posting the following info on upcoming changes to aiming and control system on behalf of CCP Wolfman since he's knee deep in making these changes. He will also be answer questions and discussing this topic in this thread as well.

Hi

As IGÇÖm sure youGÇÖre aware there have been some issues with the controls. WeGÇÖve been looking in to them and have identified some problems and starting with the mouse we are making some updates.

In this hotfix we have made changes to the input settings on the mouse which should improve the smoothness and fine aiming. The new values are very similar to those in Chromosome (though not identical). One thing to note is that the DPI settings on your mouse can make a significant difference to how this feels so please keep that in mind.

Your feedback on how this compares to the previous values will be very important so please include your settings with any feedback you give if possible.

Cheers

CCP Wolfman

So does this mean that if I want to start enjoying the game, that I have to use a mouse until the Sony Controllers get their fix? Do you have a ETA on the Sony Controller fix? that is the controller most players use anyways.

Im guessing the DS3 is experiencing problems because of the restrictions they are putting on KB/M values this was the case in Unreal tournament 3...

The mouse should have raw input. It is pointless to even try and balance the KBM with the DS3, you will only ruin it. Also, deadzones should just go to eliminate the input lag. Input lag is a huge deal to FPS games because it can completely throw off your aim. And when I say completely I mean completely. I have also noticed that the move controller sensitivity effects the KBM sensitivity. Some sensitivity values on the KBM are broken but right now the only one I can remember is 20, it made me feel like I had turned up the sensitivity at 200.

Come on guys. Try to play other FPS games on computer or PS3 over the weekend.

Wolfman I'll send you a pack of beer if I'm wrong on this. Your accelleration on the Mouse and DS3 is backwards. It's that simple.

Snippet from my other post:

Take a mouse. Try to make fine movements with sensitivity at 100. Nearly impossible. Now slowly move your mouse from one side of the pad from the other. You'll do a number of 360's. Now try again but much faster this time. You will notice the number of 360's drop. No wonder no one can aim or GTFO. *edit* This is the source of the perceived "input lag" it's not lag at all, just backwards accelleration. *edit*

Take DS3. Try to make fine turns from say 0-60% range on the analog stick. You notice the turn speed is pretty constant. You have to move your finger only MMs to make fine movement. That is hard to do. Now snap from 0-100%. You can visually see you turn slow for about a second or so before the accelleration kicks in. In reality you want that second or so to ramp up in between 0-60% so you can make that fine aim. Then you want the 60-100% range snap to speed instantly. Now you can GTFO.


https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=74613&p=11

*EDIT* forgot to add that the hotfix didn't fix the issue. Not even sure it masked it. I give up until the next input hotfix.

The new values are very similar to those in Chromosome (though not identical).

Ive got an idea, maybe like make them identical, then they are fixed ?

Just tried it, adjusting from 20 ingame sense to 30 is like x200

Ive reset my mouse back to its chromosone values and i cannot track a moving target body, before Uprising i could track the head of a moving target.

Ive tried 1k DPI, 1.5, 2 and from 2.5k upward things get really awkward and i still had to adjust seperate DPI values for each axis or i would be aiming in a oval instead of a circle.

I dont get it, what was wrong with chromosone ?

Edit: seriously why is Sense 20 more sensetive then 40,50,60,70,80,90,100?????????

"In this hotix" ? Meaning the one that just rolled out or the one coming next DT ?

As IGÇÖm sure youGÇÖre aware there have been some issues with the controls. WeGÇÖve been looking in to them and have identified some problems and starting with the mouse we are making some updates.

In this hotfix we have made changes to the input settings on the mouse which should improve the smoothness and fine aiming. The new values are very similar to those in Chromosome (though not identical). One thing to note is that the DPI settings on your mouse can make a significant difference to how this feels so please keep that in mind.

Your feedback on how this compares to the previous values will be very important so please include your settings with any feedback you give if possible.

Shouldn't you guys be worring about the PS3 controller first? Since we're are in fact playing on a Playstation which makes it safe to say the majority of Dust players are using PS3 Controllers rather than Keyboard & Mouse. Just a way to satisfy more people, quicker.

YES we are supporting keyboard and mouse in Unreal Tournament 3 on PS3. He is confident we are doing it in a way that will be balanced without feeling "gimped" for either side.

Posting the following info on upcoming changes to aiming and control system on behalf of CCP Wolfman since he's knee deep in making these changes. He will also be answer questions and discussing this topic in this thread as well.

Hi

As IGÇÖm sure youGÇÖre aware there have been some issues with the controls. WeGÇÖve been looking in to them and have identified some problems and starting with the mouse we are making some updates.

In this hotfix we have made changes to the input settings on the mouse which should improve the smoothness and fine aiming. The new values are very similar to those in Chromosome (though not identical). One thing to note is that the DPI settings on your mouse can make a significant difference to how this feels so please keep that in mind.

Your feedback on how this compares to the previous values will be very important so please include your settings with any feedback you give if possible.

Cheers

CCP Wolfman

what about the sony controllers?
because to be honest and i mean no disrespect the new movement system and iron sights completly blow. in chromosome they were perfect and im sure many will agree but what are the odds of getting that back to the way it was?

WHY AIMING GOT BORKED

Or my best guess, at any rate. And really, this is just about the DS3 although parts of it apply to the KB/M agrument also. This whole discussion assumes aim assist is off.

The fundamental critisism of aiming/control mechanics in Chromo was that the controller curve was not a curve but rather three flat lines pasted together(looking something like: \_/ ). The problem with this was that when you pushed right stick over too much aiming became twitchy at the transition from the deadzone to the sloped part of the controller curve. Adjusting deadzone width through the MOVE menu and the slope of the lines through the sensitivity setting in the controller menu helped a lot.

These adjustments made things bearable, and we all got used to it eventually. Problem was, the control mechanics were almost always mentioned in negative reviews of DUST. In Uprising, CCP has taken a serious swing at addressing those complaints. So although many forum warriors are crying out for a reversion to the old aiming/controller mechanics, that would be a bad idea. Uprising's mechanics need to be made to work, and work well. If that can't happen CCP will have to rewrite controller mechanics again.

But let's focus on Uprising's mechanics as they stand.

I believe the only real change CCP made was to add rotation acceleration for mercs. This adds realism but also is supposed to make fine adjustment a lot smoother, and when implemented correctly it does. If CCP got the physics right then the acceleration applies symetrically to speeding up and slowing down. Tbh i have not yet tested whether the deceleration is in effect and implemented properly, will tonight.

But the acceleration/deceleration is not the problem.

The problem is still the controller curve, and the reason most likely is that CCP did not change the curve in any significant way. It still has abrupt transitions, and is probably exactly what we had in Chromo. You can see this transition in your merc quarters or better yet out in the field. Just very slowly push the right thumbstick over and start to rotate - keep going and you'll eventually see the abrupt transision to a higher rotation speed. This is the problem. Because we're pushing the stick over slowly we know that the transition to highr speed rotation is not being caused by acceleration, but rather by the controller curve.

When you compound this abrupt control curve transition with the rotation acceleration, things become very hard to control and predict and presto! - 3 clip gunfights.

Edit: One last thing.

Devs, i love you guys - and i'm not just sayin' that 'cause i'm drunk, either.

And i really hate to say i told you so, but i told you so:

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=571299#post571299

Noobs.

@Rei Shepard

It seems to be all relative, so why wouldn't DS3 and kb/m users share the same thread.. They want us to be on an even playing field right.. So try to be less of an ass . . K. ?

M/KB user here. After today's patch aiming got a lot better. It is on the same level as it was in Chromosome I'd say, and that's good enough for me.

I'm using a Razer Diamondback 3G, sensitivity 80, smoothing off, aim assist off.

Thanks for this fix, CCP!

Google. Unreal Tournament 3 mouse and keyboard balancing, they had these same issues when they tried to balance out the mouse by adding a turnspeed/deadzone of sorts (not sure what the technical name for it is since im not a dev) it also screws with the DS3 because your precision movements aren't so precise anymore because of the certain acceleration/deceleration that is working to try to adjust the mouse speed... ( I could be totally wrong but from what ive read the PS3 can't determine settings based on inputs) So settings are universal..

I can also 100% verify if the "Aim fix" was implemented today it didn't do anything to improve on the current system... I have tried increasing DPI decreasing DPI changing the mouse speed via the ps3 everything and my precise movements turn into long strides when aiming left and right.....



They are trying to balance something that not to many people complained about in Chromosone which in place is hurting the majority of folks who didn't complain about it...

Maybe mouse users shouldnt be playing a game on the PS3 anyway... I have no sympathy for mouse users. If you guys got good controls, the game would be broken and unfair for DS3 users. Console games should be played from the comfort of a couch, with a controller and a beer.

Maybe. But lots of players LOVE console shooters. Trying to allow both is a huge mistake, and is likely why they have so much trouble getting the aim down. Its almost impossible to balance correctly. If you just made good controls for both, mouse users would dominate with pinpoint accuracy.

Back when I first heard about DUST I knew the biggest issue would be controls, and trying to get aiming fair with both controllers and mouse. And its obvious they are struggling with that big time, leaving both controls schemes below standard. Force people to use one or the other.

If its a mouse, youll lose a ton more players than if its a DS3 though, thats for sure.

Console games should be played from the comfort of a couch, with a controller and a beer.

Maybe. But lots of players LOVE console shooters. Trying to allow both is a huge mistake, and is likely why they have so much trouble getting the aim down. Its almost impossible to balance correctly. If you just made good controls for both, mouse users would dominate with pinpoint accuracy.

Back when I first heard about DUST I knew the biggest issue would be controls, and trying to get aiming fair with both controllers and mouse. And its obvious they are struggling with that big time, leaving both controls schemes below standard. Force people to use one or the other.

If its a mouse, youll lose a ton more players than if its a DS3 though, thats for sure.

Maybe mouse users shouldnt be playing a game on the PS3 anyway... I have no sympathy for mouse users. If you guys got good controls, the game would be broken and unfair for DS3 users. Console games should be played from the comfort of a couch, with a controller and a beer.

This logic is ******** im hella good with mouse and keyboard and I know not everyone who has given me a challlange on the field (pre uprising) is using a Kb/M and I respect the **** out of the good DS3 users.. If they out gun my kb/m skills do i call the DS3 Op and Dust should be a Kb/m game only ..? Hell no, those people who are good if not quicker accuracy with DS3 its because they have gotten to that point with practice and dedication just like the majority of the competitive kb/m players have grown up on shooters using the keyboard and mouse..

This debate is as old as consoles and it really boils down to if your good your good, if a Kb/m user owns you there is a good chance he/she is better then you, be it thinking ahead of the situation or gun game, same logic goes for DS3 users.. For those that cry about one or the other they should probably look at themselves and go play something that takes a lil less hand eye cordnation..

This is just factually wrong. There is a reason console UIs are WAY different then PC UI. Even in non twitch senstive gaming. The reason is, mouse can do percise input a LOT better than a joy stick. That ability translates to being able to put and keep a cursor on a target a lot easier. Thats just facts.

In DUST, right now, mouse users DONT have that advantage cause their controls suck. If they fix those controls, then that advantage would be there. Go ahead, claim Im bad, whatever. I know my skill. I also know facts, and the simple fact that everyone who isnt blind by love of KB/M knows is that KB/M provides more percise, easier aim. Thats why games like COD and BF3 and Halo all have strong sticky aim where PC shooters dont.

What about the fact that I aim my MD at someone fire and the smoke tracer hits them dead on but I infact miss because the explosion lands about 5m further away than where the tracer does?

change the ******* mir and the blue flash for laser!!

give me a viewfinder *4 or red point !!

@Bones

Im not denying that and im not trying to argue im saying that its not as simple as the mouse "is" more accurate because I can point you to multiple people that will tell you the DS3 "is" more precise. . Its simple because the user makes it that precise.. You put two people same skill lvl one from each input there isnt much diference.. Eg; Chromosome infact I think the DS3 users excelled over the kb/m users on the leader boards.. Even though you cant compare bike vs a car cause a car is "Automatic" if that person driving a car doesn't know how to drive, the bike would indeed go faster... ;)

Last build aiming was fine with a mouse, now it's just plain bad even after the patch. Why did you mess something up that's baked in already in unreal 3? I don't understand this at all, it's native.

It's seems like your trying to emulate a joystick with the mouse now, because the movements on screen don't correlate to my movements.

It's nice to see the kb/m players getting some love (or at least attempting to get some love). Any word on when the DS3 controls get tweaked?

i bet when they tweek DS3 the KB/M users will complain there controls suck or dont work

RAW input.

I hate to post this again, but since this seems to be the official thread I'm just wondering if anyone at CCP or the CPM can tell me whether these findings of mine for the DS3 are anywhere close to being right?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqMshc-A6HVHdHRKbjM1NG5NQ081Ml9sMDR2RVl4N0E#gid=0

Hi

The rotation speed limitations that are applied to the different dropsuit classes do present issues for tuning control with the mouse and ensuring DS3 players donGÇÖt find themselves at a very significant disadvantage. The maximum settings for pitch and yaw are one of the areas we are currently looking at making further changes to. We are continuing to work with and test different settings for both DS3 and mouse and we will make further updates once we have tested them.

The feedback we have received has been very useful but also very varied, in some cases conflicting and in others confusing. We have been unable to replicate some of the issues (such as Move settings having an impact on the mouse which just shouldnGÇÖt be possible). Because of this we are also investigating the possibility that changes/problems outside of the control system itself are effecting the experience. More on that if we find anything.

WITH YOUR MIND!

Reverting the controls is not a good idea. They were serviceable in Chromosome, but nothing more than that. They need to move forward and just fix the system now once and for all.

That's it, I quit.

Dust is dead, good bye.


1. Different suits gives you different speed limit - this is NOT what an fps should behave. This has became a first person MMORPG. With this "mechanism" in place, the game will never be skill based, and the control will NEVER be fixed because of how speed limits works. With speed limits on, you cannot even twitch shoot enemies even within a small angle. Your reaction time is not a useful skill anymore.

Dust is now confirmed to be an RPG and not a shooter. The "first person shooter" experience I am looking for is DEAD.


2. So you basically confirmed the CCP logic "mouse is too good for FPS (duh) so we nerfed it! :D ".

Since I am a mouse user, I can not put up with non-sense like this.

Seriously can nobody see how stupid it sounds?


Good bye Dust, it was good while it lasted.

RAW input.

Speed cap is a necessity for the control schemes to be at least moderately balanced.

Control system: Mouse logitech G3


For Dust to be a long-haul game that grows and people continue to play the core gameplay must be fun, unlocking XYZ wont keep people very long if the actual game itself isn't enjoyable.

Right now, due almost entirely to changing something that worked fine before, it simply isn't fun. I'm playing it, because I want my skill points and to learn the new skills/gear so when you fix it I wont have lost out, but if it doesn't get fixed I and I'm sure a lot of others will drift away.


I cant really tell you whats wrong. but I can give you these observations I've made

-The hot fix helped a bit, it went from throwing the PS3 out a window frustrating to what it is now- gritted teeth until the SP cap is reached annoying.

-before uprising it felt like I was connected to the game, it was fun. Now it feels like I'm connected to a lever, that connects to a chicken, who has his own joystick, which is connected to a PS3. I have no idea what the little fella is doing, but I know I want to throttle him.

-The sensitivity normally is very high and jerky, the sensitivity when I aim down sights is slow and sluggish. Aiming down sights I go from a 16 year old after 15 cans of redbull and speed to a 65 year old guy with a prosthetic arm.



I cannot stress enough how important the basic act of shooting someone is, if it feels good and fun (like it did) dust will be fine. If it stays how it is now.. anything else you do, no matter how good, will only give people a reason to grit their teeth and try and ignore the control system for another week to try it out, then they'll leave.

Then they failed to deliver that part as i can still do a 360 in an instant, i just dont have any control over my aiming.

DS3 user here...

Was mouse and keyboard really advantageous enough to warrant the change to aiming?

I can understand problems like faster strafing or tanks being faster when using a keyboard... Yeah, that needed tweaking, but aiming was okay as far as i can tell anyways.. Both were fun and worked just fine. Yes, one is inherently superior, but superior aim is such a small variable unless you're a sniper. There's gear, there's your team, there's your positioning, there's your SP.

Everything seemed okay.

In regards to rotation speeds- they aren't there to gimp mouse/keyboard, they're just there to balance the suits or at least that was the original explanation anyways. I remember because I normally like my senstivity very high. (I had my sensitivity at 0-0 in chromo to keep my turning consistent because of the rotation speed, it was annoying but I got over it and had to deal with it)

Mouse is inherently superior to a controller, there's no way around that. This new control style just ruins both I think.

A solution might be to take Raw mouse input for looking around, but limit the cross hairs to that of the suit; with a soft cap once you twist your head to a certain limit.

The smoothest implementation of this would be allowing independent turning of the head, so you can look around almost unrestricted (limited to how far the head can turn), meanwhile, the cross hair will try to catch up as fast as the suit allows.

This is also possible for controller sensitivities that would normally exceed the turn speed of the suit, meaning that you can have controller sensitivity be universal rather than suit dependent.


In an ideal world, the arms would compensate partially, moving as fast as the head turn speed up to a point, then lagging behind as the arm movement is restricted by the torso which needs to catch up.

And example of this is the aiming in MechWarrior Online; you can look around as fast as your mouse allows, but the mech turns at its own speed as it tries to catch up to where you're aiming.

The feedback we have received has been very useful but also very varied, in some cases conflicting and in others confusing. We have been unable to replicate some of the issues (such as Move settings having an impact on the mouse which just shouldnGÇÖt be possible). Because of this we are also investigating the possibility that changes/problems outside of the control system itself are effecting the experience. More on that if we find anything.

One last thing, whether youGÇÖre providing constructive feedback or screaming in pure hatred please mention what control method youGÇÖre using. We really need to know that

CCP Wolfman

That's because they've nerfed the controls - thus breaking the balance in favour of SIxaxis aim - instead of simply capping the turn speed like they should have been doing all along.

That's because they've nerfed the controls - thus breaking the balance in favour of SIxaxis aim - instead of simply capping the turn speed like they should have been doing all along.

Proper mouse aim, with a HARD limit to turn speed. Let people spin the mouse and do whatever they want, but make sure they never turn faster than the Sixaxis controller is capable of. You get all the precision and sensitiviy options of competent mouse control, but without the ability to ignore the restrictions inherent in a console shooter.

That's what I've been looking for all along.

.
.
.
Alternate suggestion: (something you could do if you have the time)
have two "cursors", one is without speed limit and will move the camera without delay, but there will be a separate crosshair that controls the gun aim (this will also affect the gun model) will slowly "catch up" within its speed limit to where you are looking at (the first cursor). This way you get to preserve your game design concepts (slow turning for heavies/turrets) but won't make the game feel laggy.
TLDR: control->camera without speed limit, but the gun aim will follow with their own limits. (so if you turn very quickly 180 degree, your camera will turn very quickly without any speed limit, but you will see your gun turning slowly to catch up. If you fire within this catch up period, you will effectively see the gun spraying bullets along a trail as it tries to go to the centre of the camera.
.
.
.

I'm playing DUST514 with the PS Move controller that came bundled with my PS3 and I'm getting stomped by DS3 users. Plz nerf DS3.

That's because they've nerfed the controls - thus breaking the balance in favour of SIxaxis aim - instead of simply capping the turn speed like they should have been doing all along.

Proper mouse aim, with a HARD limit to turn speed. Let people spin the mouse and do whatever they want, but make sure they never turn faster than the Sixaxis controller is capable of. You get all the precision and sensitiviy options of competent mouse control, but without the ability to ignore the restrictions inherent in a console shooter.

That's what I've been looking for all along.

Fix the inverse acceleration and you've fixed the KBM problem. My K:D has dropped sharply since the pre-release, and my fun has dropped just as abruptly. It's not the skill re-spec, it's the controls that are ruining it for me.

DS3 user

Just disable kbm, like 99% other shooters on ps3 its only way to make game equal fot all. Or disable ds3, and 80% players will leave dust514.

Aiming with kbm (in chromosome) was too fast and total unfair. In near future ds3 users have no future in this game if mouse will have advantage with aiming and turning speed.

You choosed PS3 as platform for dust514, so, i am sure you thought about PS3's install base, and you have planned to get players from this install base. So just use your imagination for thinking in way of new DS3 lplayers who came to dust514 - 95% of them have no slighest chances to compete vs kbm's users. Ok, i play shooters with ds3 for years, i can win vs most of unxperienced kbm users, but i have not many chances vs experienced kbm user.So i know chances well, if one corp will get many experienced kbm users - no one ds3 corp will win them. No one.

And most of ds3 users wont get kbm, they just will leave game. If you will not balance kbm vs ds3 i serious will think about leave this game. What the hell, better i will play in fair game in battlefield 4 than always loose to kbm users here. I got 15 friends from bf3 to dust514, they have same opinion.

Kbm users dont want play with ds3? Ok, let them play this game with kbm, but with some limitation wich meke kbm equal to ds3. Why the must have permanent advantage vs 80% of other players?

If you want success on ps3 - think about ds3 users at first.

look 3 post before yours at my previous. Do you not see the truth to it, or are you just going to cry until you get your way?I use both not just kb/m and brought to light that certain fixes could bring a form of balance, but instead of arguing valid points, you just rant your heart out.

If CCP is really worried about DS3 users and wants to hold their hands, then just improve auto-aim. That's what it is there for, don't ruin the aim of players who actually want to enjoy aiming!

Dont tell me what to do, and i will not say where you must go. I have same rights to show my opinion here.If CCP can balance it - i will happy. If they wont balance - ds3 users wont play. Thats all.

p.s. and try to read posts fully next time, i told about balance too, but best way is disabling kbm, coz 10-15% is kbm users. And they are crying here for keep their advantage.

why not "press to win" button? I want use my skill, not aim bot. So only way is limitation of kbm to level of ds3, or disabling kbm at all. Why 15% of players have advantage and dare to demand keep it?

those 10-15% KBM users are also 90% of the time holder of 1-3 Eve payed accounts, disabling KBM will not be good from a busness perspective, just me and my 3 friends inbetween us hold 13 total Dust/Eve accounts all payed for.

I also never seen you have remorse as you 4 man pub stomp trough lines of oblivious noobs that are using ds3's, if thats fine why are you quacking in your boots if 2 out of those 16 are KBM users ? Are they the only ones capable of ruining your KDR?

Besides if they disable KBM support, i will hook up my Eagle Eye converter, and seeing it works better as the current native KMB support we have atm, we will still be here.

Right now i am fighting more with my controls then i am fighting my opponents and my KDR is still going up, but not so good KBM players are having their fun ruined bigtime and this game is supposed to be one for the long haul, where CCP wants to aquire as much players as possible.

Limiting the pool to just ds3 players limits the total scope of players, you don't seem to be too distraught about Move players playing against you ? Why ? Because they are easy pickings ?

First... You don't have to use auto-aim.

Second... You say you want to limit keyboard and mouse to the level of DS3... but, what exactly is the level of the DS3? Do you really think it's terrible enough to deserve this set-up... and if you do, then why even use a controller that you think is such a low level piece of hardware?

Third... They can't truly limit keyboard and mouse itself, they've only only limited their ability to aim. Why in the world would anyone want that? FPS players want to be able to aim, let the people who can't or don't care about aiming have their auto-aim while everybody else can enjoy the game.

1. More aim assist - less skill for playing. Aim-bot its maximum on this way.

2. I tried kbm in chromosome, i did can aim twice faster than with ds3, and i had x3-4 turning speed. As minimum turning speed must be limited. CCP made the overall speed of the game slower, so if i have controls for kbm like in chromosome - i am headshot god in Uprising. Thats not fair at all. And other side of kbm - its provide macroses.... one more reason to disable mouse support.

3. Yes, i have no fun to make anyone unhappy, but most of players play with ds3, why 15% of players must have advantage? And improving aim assist is not best choise. Maybe in complex solution a little improved aim assist will not bad. So its dilemma. And CCP must make choise or find way to balance.

3. That question can be flipped, why must 15% of players have their aim ruined? Improving aim assist lets people who want to challenge themselves to aim while catering to the people who can't. That''s what CCP is trying to accomplish right?

Disabling mouse - will ruin their game, i agree. But i dont want to play vs corps of experienced kbm users - i cant win them coz controller advantage only. Its easy to gather them in one domination battle team.

It definitely ruin my game, i see no rreason for playing in game where i have no chances to win. And all ds3 users understand it too.

One way to make game equal for all - one type of controller. Let it be kbm, so i leave this game for ever. Or let it be ds3 - kbm users will buy emulators, anyway they wanna easy way. But emulators have some limitations too, it will more fair for all than current situation.

You're exaggerating... You do have a chance to win. I use the DS3 and I win. I can't tell who is using keyboard and mouse and who isn't and I suspect other players can't either. I only worry about who is good and who is not, but with the way things are now... Everybody might as well be terrible shots...
.

Better aim alone doesn't win corp battles.

I do feel for you DS3 users though, I don't want an advantage at all, I just want a game I can enjoy.

Take a mouse. Try to make fine movements with sensitivity at 100. Nearly impossible. Now slowly move your mouse from one side of the pad from the other. You'll do a number of 360's. Now try again but much faster this time. You will notice the number of 360's drop. No wonder no one can aim or GTFO. *edit* This is the source of the perceived "input lag" it's not lag at all, just backwards accelleration. *edit*we can turn.

You are joking? In FPS it always win battles. ALWAYS. Tactic work if aiming and shooting skills is equal.

So first factor is aiming and shooting skills, secondary factor - tactical skills.

Maybe will work something like it:

24vs24 is corp battle

30% of each team allow to be kbm users, 70% of each team ds3 users.

So each team have 8 slots for mouse users and 16 slots for ds3 users.

Ds3 users can occupy kbm slots if they want.

Kbm users cannot occupy ds3 slot at all.

And it will fair enough, coz prevent stacking of kbm users.

I want it too bro. CCP must resolve this problem somehow

Ban the DS3.

You act like mouse and keyboard is unstoppable or it's magic or it will instantly negate tactics, it does not.

Mouse evil for PS3. professionals with long play on his arm, long known as a programmatic way to customize the mouse. Sensitivity should be equal for the mouse and the DS3. We must make the possibility for CO regulation sensitivity and streyfe of sight, maybe then it will be easier to all.

Ok, lets do it. You will play alone then

Automatic win.

Best in the world.

THIS is still an issue. I hope they'll fix it at least on 5/14

Aim is better now after the hotfix... but still not good. The aim problem is really evident when shooting small static targets. Destroying enemy nanohives best illustrates the problem. I'm guessing it's the acceleration? Creates a swaying effect similar to a scoped sniper. At least that's the best way I can think to describe it.

Mouse sensitivity at 40. Setting it at twenty is still broken.

The kb/m is supported by the ps3, as well as a variety of other periphials. It is up to to the game developers to decide which ones are supported for there game. Both the kb/m and controler have there advantages, yet sixaxis users seem to ignore theres and demand removal of the kb/m. You dont hear kb/m asking to fix the the advantages the controller has over them. All periphials work different and change the way the game is played. Get over it already, and learn to use your periphal of choice advantage over the others.

Now, again, we have tons of people chiming in with more solutions in search of a problem. Cap it this way, gimp it that way, separate the the gun crosshair from the viewport! That's a lot of code whose only purpose is to attack people who choose a certain input device.

Much like other whining posts, these posts miss the obvious truth: If X is clearly superior, everybody would be using X.

Keyboards and mice combos can be had for $20 dollars, and everyone's PS3 has USB ports. So why aren't more people using this little "I Win" button?

But furthermore, assuming the KB/M is a superior controller choice(many top players would disagree), why punish the player who wants to work hard and master it?

This is just another example of people who don't want to put effort in the game trying to cripple those who want to improve their performance.

The real solution for this is to give players a proper control panel for input. Acceleration curves, joystick deadzones, bindings, turn speed, etc. Let everyone customize their own variables to maximize their effectiveness with their controller choice.

Any other solution will just result in more attempts by CCP to tweak the controls on the behalf of players, and more threads in response to the changes because, surprise, one size does not fit all.

p.s. I mean not noobs with kbm, i mean best players, they always better coz easy type of controls.

1. Turning limit. WHY? this is an FPS, not an RPG, I understand you guys have put in the whole turning limit to mimic the orbit/tracking mechnism in EVE so that heavies will "turn slower"... but you have stepped out of your line. The moment you touch basic things like aiming speed, you have stepped on the toes of the FPS players and into the boundary of "too much". This is an FPS first, don't turn it into an "RPG".

Suggestion: (strongly suggested)
abandon the whole concept of "turning speed limits".

Alternate suggestion: (something you could do if you have the time)
have two "cursors", one is without speed limit and will move the camera without delay, but there will be a separate crosshair that controls the gun aim (this will also affect the gun model) will slowly "catch up" within its speed limit to where you are looking at (the first cursor). This way you get to preserve your game design concepts (slow turning for heavies/turrets) but won't make the game feel laggy.
TLDR: control->camera without speed limit, but the gun aim will follow with their own limits. (so if you turn very quickly 180 degree, your camera will turn very quickly without any speed limit, but you will see your gun turning slowly to catch up. If you fire within this catch up period, you will effectively see the gun spraying bullets along a trail as it tries to go to the centre of the camera.




2. Mouse control simulating joystick - just don't.
Mouse users need raw input. Period.
This should be the benchmark you guys should aim to achieve. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ckv95eHdzTY
My point is that you need the LEAST amount of filters/smoothing/whatever be applied to your input.
We want RAW input to camera control, nothing more. This should be a top priority in your game design because this is what allows the FPS skill game to be present in your space MMORPGFPS. You don't mess with the basic FPS mechanics.
The control input to output should be perfectly linear (no acceleration, no smoothing) because this is where the skill game is at. <---this also applies to controllers. take away your smoothing and acceleration bullshet.



3. Framerate / performance issue. This influences the aiming. Fix this ASAP. First you need a high framerate. Secondly you need a consistent framerate.



4. Hitboxes detection. Nothing I can add to, just fix it. How can it be messed up in the first place?

some news would be nice.

The hotfix did not fix anything for me, using an IBM Keyboard and a Logitech Performance MX mouse.

Reading this thread, I get the same headaches I got when reading the SP cap threads.

The pounding headache caused by terrible solutions looking for a problem that doesn't exist.

The best solution to the SP cap problem was to not have a cap at all. If someone wants to grind all day, fine. That person is working hard for their rewards. But we had countless theorycrafters making up the most convoluted schemes imaginable, just because they want to keep dedicated players from gaining an advantage via their dedication.

Now, again, we have tons of people chiming in with more solutions in search of a problem. Cap it this way, gimp it that way, separate the the gun crosshair from the viewport! That's a lot of code whose only purpose is to attack people who choose a certain input device.

Much like other whining posts, these posts miss the obvious truth: If X is clearly superior, everybody would be using X.

Keyboards and mice combos can be had for $20 dollars, and everyone's PS3 has USB ports. So why aren't more people using this little "I Win" button?

But furthermore, assuming the KB/M is a superior controller choice(many top players would disagree), why punish the player who wants to work hard and master it?

This is just another example of people who don't want to put effort in the game trying to cripple those who want to improve their performance.

The real solution for this is to give players a proper control panel for input. Acceleration curves, joystick deadzones, bindings, turn speed, etc. Let everyone customize their own variables to maximize their effectiveness with their controller choice.

Any other solution will just result in more attempts by CCP to tweak the controls on the behalf of players, and more threads in response to the changes because, surprise, one size does not fit all.

The hotfix did not fix anything for me, using an IBM Keyboard and a Logitech Performance MX mouse.

Reading this thread, I get the same headaches I got when reading the SP cap threads.

The pounding headache caused by terrible solutions looking for a problem that doesn't exist.

The best solution to the SP cap problem was to not have a cap at all. If someone wants to grind all day, fine. That person is working hard for their rewards. But we had countless theorycrafters making up the most convoluted schemes imaginable, just because they want to keep dedicated players from gaining an advantage via their dedication.

Now, again, we have tons of people chiming in with more solutions in search of a problem. Cap it this way, gimp it that way, separate the the gun crosshair from the viewport! That's a lot of code whose only purpose is to attack people who choose a certain input device.

Much like other whining posts, these posts miss the obvious truth: If X is clearly superior, everybody would be using X.

Keyboards and mice combos can be had for $20 dollars, and everyone's PS3 has USB ports. So why aren't more people using this little "I Win" button?

But furthermore, assuming the KB/M is a superior controller choice(many top players would disagree), why punish the player who wants to work hard and master it?

This is just another example of people who don't want to put effort in the game trying to cripple those who want to improve their performance.

The real solution for this is to give players a proper control panel for input. Acceleration curves, joystick deadzones, bindings, turn speed, etc. Let everyone customize their own variables to maximize their effectiveness with their controller choice.

Any other solution will just result in more attempts by CCP to tweak the controls on the behalf of players, and more threads in response to the changes because, surprise, one size does not fit all.

CCP Wolfman - Can we expect a fix for Tuesdays downtime we desperately need it with the "full release"/planetary Conquest !

CCP Wolfman - Can we expect a fix for Tuesdays downtime we desperately need it with the "full release"/planetary Conquest !

A RESPEC OF SKILLPOINTS IS NEEDED BECAUSE OF UNDOCUMENTED APPLICATION OF THIS CONTROL SHENANIGANS AND MOUSE BECOMING USELESS IN SLOW TURNING DROPSUIT CONTROL.

The artificial turning speed cap makes most of the suits unplayable with twitch mouse. As a heavy, I need to hold back my aiming speed at 1/4 of my normal aim speed I have been refining for 20 years. If I aim fast with the mouse, the movement is registered as much slower. This design is frankly idiotic, but that's not my point in this post.

Because of this failure to communicate in advance these changes so that I would have known to spec into tank (where twitch speed aim is not used), I want a respec of all skillpoints.


When you want to go about fixing this, either revert back to Chromosome control scheme, or remove artificial dropsuit turn speed limits. The turn speed limitation is not a good game design mechanic. It adds nothing that would not be more simply and beautifully added by making a broader spectrum of dropsuit run and strafe speeds. Balance dropsuits by their run and strafe speed, not by the turning speed. This is not a mechwarrior game.

Now read this and respond, do not be offended by the harshness. You developers scammed me out of a PS3 purchase and multiple merc packs on multiple accounts which I would never have even given a thought to, had I known dust will drop its mouse support in release build.

1. We are looking at doing re-balancing of our AV weapons. One of the topics, which also seems to be showing through on this thread is to keep a decently long enough range on the forge gun, but also look at the damage decay variable over time on it, optimal ranges, etc. Because agreed, that it is a very potent anti-vehicle weapon and it's not exactly something that is easily countered with countermeasures (see next point). We also don't want the forge gun to be nerfed to the point of feeling ineffective, so a direct reduction of damage output across the board is not going to be the simple answer there.

ccp i have not played in the last 3 days do in large part because of the aiming problem so think we can get some info seeing as tomorrow is the 14.

Hi,

In answer to the question on the mouse sensitivity - it's being worked on currently. With the help of the forums we have identified the key issues and we hope to deploy a patch that resolves these concerns very soon.

As for keyboard remapping, we are working through a list of prioritised tasks and this feature is among those. At this moment in time we are utilising all available resources to deliver a smoother Uprising experience.

* After some investigation we discovered that the sensitivity input curve being used by the mouse was incorrect. Despite new settings being present they were not being used. This issue requires a code update to fix and that is something we are working on as we speak. We will let you know when that is ready (this issue does not effect DS3 users).

* Related to that we found a bug with the mouse sensitivity input curve that is being used which resulted in some weird spikes when changing sensitivity. This occurs at settings of 20 and 100 and will be fixed once the above issue has been.

Don't forget that for each Mouse User, there might be multiple Eve accounts to be sold to, i know i run 3 Eve accounts on my PC and PC users pay a monthly Eve fee where as F2P people usually stick to F2P without even buying boosters.

If i had tried this game with this control scheme vs Chromosone, i would most likely not have returned to Eve and not bought 5 merc packs for my boosters.

I also convinced a couple of other people to do the same, in the end they will lose around 10 Paying Eve accounts & 3 payed Dust accounts by loosing the 3 Dust accounts due to Controll issues.

And i doubt we aren't the only ones.



Also touching this subject again, if you want to play like a couch potato and not be in any way competitive with other players that have fun, only when playing they competitive, its is entirely your choice but we should not be bubble wrapped, taped down to the floor, blindfolded, gagged and shoved up some spikes from the rear up, just so you can keep playing on your couch and compete with us.

This game was advertised to come with KB/M support and well since uprising it doesnt.

Hi guys,

WeGÇÖve just finished testing a further update to the aiming systems and we will be deploying this to you today. This time the changes are primarily focused on improving the DS3 controls but there are some little tweaks for the mouse in there as well. I have decided not to explain what has actually changed (yet) as I donGÇÖt want to influence your feedback. I will fill you in once youGÇÖve had a chance to play with them and shout praise/abuse.

In other control related news:

* We are looking in to whether or not the DS3 acceleration to max rotation speed is respecting the actual settings (thanks Sete Clifton for noticing there might be an issue here).

* After some investigation we discovered that the sensitivity input curve being used by the mouse was incorrect. Despite new settings being present they were not being used. This issue requires a code update to fix and that is something we are working on as we speak. We will let you know when that is ready (this issue does not effect DS3 users).

* Related to that we found a bug with the mouse sensitivity input curve that is being used which resulted in some weird spikes when changing sensitivity. This occurs at settings of 20 and 100 and will be fixed once the above issue has been.

Cheers

CCP Wolfman

Hi guys,

WeGÇÖve just finished testing a further update to the aiming systems and we will be deploying this to you today. This time the changes are primarily focused on improving the DS3 controls but there are some little tweaks for the mouse in there as well. I have decided not to explain what has actually changed (yet) as I donGÇÖt want to influence your feedback. I will fill you in once youGÇÖve had a chance to play with them and shout praise/abuse.

In other control related news:

* We are looking in to whether or not the DS3 acceleration to max rotation speed is respecting the actual settings (thanks Sete Clifton for noticing there might be an issue here).

* After some investigation we discovered that the sensitivity input curve being used by the mouse was incorrect. Despite new settings being present they were not being used. This issue requires a code update to fix and that is something we are working on as we speak. We will let you know when that is ready (this issue does not effect DS3 users).

* Related to that we found a bug with the mouse sensitivity input curve that is being used which resulted in some weird spikes when changing sensitivity. This occurs at settings of 20 and 100 and will be fixed once the above issue has been.

Cheers

CCP Wolfman

DS3 user. 40/30 AA On.

The new version feels just as bad as the old version to be perfectly honest. I noticed no changes whatsoever when I played today. I think I'm going to redownload the game tonight and see if it helps at all.

If that doesn't work though, can't we at least get an option to use Chromosome's aiming system? Because this is teetering on the brink of unplayable and I know a lot of people feel the exact same way.

i am having issues with the move controllers when you go into aim mode the weapon it self does not move just a little dot. when aiming down the sights i would think the entire weapons should move. there is also some lag there.

Noticed no difference in the launch version with a mouse, pleased to see it being worked on though, CQC using any weapon is awful, I've taken to holding the mouse still and strafing until the guy is in the crosshairs which is nuts for a modern shooter.

Hi guys,

WeGÇÖve just finished testing a further update to the aiming systems and we will be deploying this to you today. This time the changes are primarily focused on improving the DS3 controls but there are some little tweaks for the mouse in there as well. I have decided not to explain what has actually changed (yet) as I donGÇÖt want to influence your feedback. I will fill you in once youGÇÖve had a chance to play with them and shout praise/abuse.

In other control related news:

* We are looking in to whether or not the DS3 acceleration to max rotation speed is respecting the actual settings (thanks Sete Clifton for noticing there might be an issue here).

* After some investigation we discovered that the sensitivity input curve being used by the mouse was incorrect. Despite new settings being present they were not being used. This issue requires a code update to fix and that is something we are working on as we speak. We will let you know when that is ready (this issue does not effect DS3 users).

* Related to that we found a bug with the mouse sensitivity input curve that is being used which resulted in some weird spikes when changing sensitivity. This occurs at settings of 20 and 100 and will be fixed once the above issue has been.

Cheers

CCP Wolfman

So I tried M/KB for the first time (in Dust) today, just to see what it's like. Now I can totally understand that for people who play on PC regularly that the aiming feels weird/bad/off/whatever, but it's a hundred times better than the DS3. ADS with a mouse does have its troubles, but I can't believe how much more accurate I could be with the mouse. Not only that, but CQC is considerably easier. Also, TAR + mouse = insane. Now I know why people are so upset about it.

Anyway, the reason I bring this up is not an endorsement for M/KB, or as a call to further nerf it. I bring it up because it really shows how much more work the DS3 desperately needs. I knew there were problems with the DS3 aiming before, but I didn't really know how big of a difference it was between the two devices.

Don't know if it's just me, but today felt a lot better than all of last week.

DS3.

Im using the DS3 for controls, and man this game just feels off to me. It feels slow and draggy no matter the sensitivity I am on.

Is there some trick, or setting I can change to get this to feel better?

Avatar movement is quite mushy in the current build, and aiming with the controller is an exercise in frustration. I did see some improvement toward the end of my six hours, but I can't honestly use the word fun to describe the experience.

Cons:
Dated presentation/visualsSloppy, imprecise shooter controls, Inadequate keyboard/mouse support, Future potential tied to-áEVE Online

I've had one key complaint about Sixaxis aim that, as of the release of Uprising, was still unsolved.

-Lack of aim scaling.
Since the official release on the 14th, THIS HAS BEEN FIXED.

Unfortunately, they also added another problem to contend with which at least partly negates this solution.

-Acceleration.
This is great for some people, but not for everyone, and it NEEDS to be something we can TURN OFF.

A toggle for the acceleration would be very nice indeed.

Lets face it. We have been pushed to the Feedback/Request section. No further talk of control fixes from the devs in the past 2 days... This is done. Was nice playing with you guys. Maybe we'll see some enhancements on the next gen consoles to prep it for PC release. Then when PC comes we will hopefully be able to tweak the config files ourselves to get the aiming we desire.

Until then I guess it's something else until the pain of having to switch back to DS3 subsides a bit.

With the lack of communication, I'm really wondering if we are going to see a fix soon, or are we supposed to just deal till the next big update...?