DUST Search - Sticky:Aiming and control system in general

CCP Wolfman wrote:

Hi guys,

Awesome graph Sete! You are correct the input/speed is linear atm. We are currently testing different curves. At the end of last week we were using a curve very similar to the one you outlined (we have in the past as well). Unfortunately weGÇÖve not been very happy with the results. We saw a limited increase in low input sensitivity, as you would expect, but at higher input levels it became harder to judge how much input would deliver the speed you wanted when tracking a target. The benefit we have found with the linear GÇ£curveGÇ¥ is that its predictability when ramping up/down makes tracking speed changes easier to judge. Anyway, weGÇÖll let you know how it goes as we continue the work.

I agree with Sete that part of the GÇ£slipperyGÇ¥ issue may be building up unwanted turning speed. However right now I donGÇÖt think this is caused by the input curve. I believe it may partially be a result of a faster time to max rotation speed when the edge acceleration kicks in (which happens just before max input). This is something we are testing at the moment. We are also testing the different parts of the aim assist system to check for any hidden issues there. This does take a while which is why weGÇÖve not made an update yet.

Issues with performance related input lag and hit detection are also being investigated. These can have a really big impact on how the aiming feels so weGÇÖre looking at this from all angles.

CCP Wolfman


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 5 post(s)
Sete Clifton PSU GHOST SYNDICATE 126	Posted - 2013.05.10 23:53:00 - [1] - Quote Reverting the controls is not a good idea. They were serviceable in Chromosome, but nothing more than that. They need to move forward and just fix the system now once and for all.
Sete Clifton PSU GHOST SYNDICATE 126	Posted - 2013.05.11 00:43:00 - [2] - Quote I hate to post this again, but since this seems to be the official thread I'm just wondering if anyone at CCP or the CPM can tell me whether these findings of mine for the DS3 are anywhere close to being right? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqMshc-A6HVHdHRKbjM1NG5NQ081Ml9sMDR2RVl4N0E#gid=0
Sete Clifton PSU GHOST SYNDICATE 134	Posted - 2013.05.13 04:16:00 - [3] - Quote (For the DS3) From what I've gathered, I'm thinking part of the problem is the acceleration algorithm they are using. It appears to be very similar to the one used in UT3. By this I mean that there is a very short but large acceleration at the beginning, then a longer but slower acceleration until it reaches the maximum speed and plateaus. This segmentation of the acceleration would make sense to be causing the feel of inconsistency and erratic movements, especially when trying to quickly change directions in CQC. It should also explain why fine movements are difficult, because small deviations of the stick from center would create relatively large changes in speed.
Sete Clifton PSU GHOST SYNDICATE 144	Posted - 2013.05.14 19:18:00 - [4] - Quote I'm noticing a slight improvement, the lower sensitivities seem to work a little better now. Did you reduce the acceleration/smoothing time? That's what it feels like to me. I do have to say though that I've noticed CQC battles still don't seem right. I'm still running into the same problem where me and the opponent both end up shooting mostly air. Overall, I'd say from the little time I've had so far it feels slightly better (on a DS3), but seems to be mostly the same. I'm interested to hear what has specifically been changed though, hopefully Wolfam can tell us soon, because I think it would help us with giving feedback. And If it's possible, I'd be interested to know more about the specific design of the aiming system itself (please ?). Also, thanks for the shout out Wolfman, I'm just glad I could help.
Sete Clifton PSU GHOST SYNDICATE DARKSTAR ARMY 147	Posted - 2013.05.15 21:30:00 - [5] - Quote So I tried M/KB for the first time (in Dust) today, just to see what it's like. Now I can totally understand that for people who play on PC regularly that the aiming feels weird/bad/off/whatever, but it's a hundred times better than the DS3. ADS with a mouse does have its troubles, but I can't believe how much more accurate I could be with the mouse. Not only that, but CQC is considerably easier. Also, TAR + mouse = insane. Now I know why people are so upset about it. Anyway, the reason I bring this up is not an endorsement for M/KB, or as a call to further nerf it. I bring it up because it really shows how much more work the DS3 desperately needs. I knew there were problems with the DS3 aiming before, but I didn't really know how big of a difference it was between the two devices.
Sete Clifton PSU GHOST SYNDICATE DARKSTAR ARMY 148	Posted - 2013.05.17 06:56:00 - [6] - Quote Thanks for the update, Wolfman. Based on a little more testing I did, I'm assuming the acceleration time was normalized to sensitivity 50 (pre-hotfix/patch), which I think is around 0.65 seconds?
Sete Clifton PSU GHOST SYNDICATE DARKSTAR ARMY 158	Posted - 2013.05.19 08:55:00 - [7] - Quote The overall aiming in Dust actually isn't that bad right now. One of the biggest issues though it that very small movements feel really inconsistent, and it keeps the aiming from feeling "fluid" like it should. By this I mean that sometimes I can barely move the stick and my aim will barely move, which is good because this means it's building up speed accurately. But most of the time it doesn't feel like it's accelerating from zero. It feels like it jumps from zero to some random amount of speed. I'm not sure what's causing this, as I think it could be a lot of things. It could be the aiming curve itself, it could be framerate issues, it could even be issues with the controller itself (DS3 sticks are pretty bad for shooters).
Sete Clifton PSU GHOST SYNDICATE DARKSTAR ARMY 161	Posted - 2013.05.20 00:14:00 - [8] - Quote Since the thread I made about it doesn't seem to be very popular, I'm going to post my idea here so a DEV might see it. Add acceleration to character/player movement in all directions (as there is currently none), and slightly increase strafe speeds. This will keep the game moving at the same overall speed, but it'll stop people from being able to quickly change directions, which is a big reason why aiming (especially CQC) feels so bad and is impossible to keep your reticle on anyone. If you want a more lengthy post about it, go here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=79347&find=unread
Sete Clifton PSU GHOST SYNDICATE DARKSTAR ARMY 183	Posted - 2013.05.25 01:39:00 - [9] - Quote Hopefully we can get an update as to what's going on with this sometime early next week? Honestly, even if CCP thinks it's totally fine I'd rather them come out and say it so I can stop wasting my time hoping it'll improve significantly. I mean, I know they're still looking at it, but their urgency and attention doesn't seem to match our level of concern. It's not game breaking anymore (at least for the DS3), but it's frustrating enough that it sucks the fun out of the game and makes it feel like I win a fight half the time more out of luck rather than outplaying my opponent (and vice versa).
Sete Clifton PSU GHOST SYNDICATE DARKSTAR ARMY 184	Posted - 2013.05.26 09:17:00 - [10] - Quote I'm probably going to make a separate thread on Monday (don't want to today because it's Sunday and I don't want it to get potentially missed by CCP) to hopefully get more discussion going, but I did some tests looking at stick deflection vs rotation speed. Here are the results: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqMshc-A6HVHdFlKbklqY1hQWnE4WVJIc1pCVHE4Smc&usp=sharing Basically, part of the reason aiming with the DS3 still feels difficult is because the rotation speed increases linearly with stick deflection, it makes it not only too easy to accidentally go faster than you want to, but also there is less leeway to make small adjustments. After going back and playing some BLOPS2 and Halo 4, it's pretty obvious that they don't use a linear progression, and instead increase the effect of stick deflection the further it is pressed. Essentially, sensitivity should increase as the stick reaches it's maximum deflection.

Sete Clifton PSU GHOST SYNDICATE DARKSTAR ARMY 216	Posted - 2013.06.02 10:36:00 - [11] - Quote Not sure about KBM, but for anyone that missed it, they are still working the DS3. Wolfman talked a little about it last week in a different thread: CCP Wolfman wrote: Hi guys, Awesome graph Sete! You are correct the input/speed is linear atm. We are currently testing different curves. At the end of last week we were using a curve very similar to the one you outlined (we have in the past as well). Unfortunately weGÇÖve not been very happy with the results. We saw a limited increase in low input sensitivity, as you would expect, but at higher input levels it became harder to judge how much input would deliver the speed you wanted when tracking a target. The benefit we have found with the linear GÇ£curveGÇ¥ is that its predictability when ramping up/down makes tracking speed changes easier to judge. Anyway, weGÇÖll let you know how it goes as we continue the work. I agree with Sete that part of the GÇ£slipperyGÇ¥ issue may be building up unwanted turning speed. However right now I donGÇÖt think this is caused by the input curve. I believe it may partially be a result of a faster time to max rotation speed when the edge acceleration kicks in (which happens just before max input). This is something we are testing at the moment. We are also testing the different parts of the aim assist system to check for any hidden issues there. This does take a while which is why weGÇÖve not made an update yet. Issues with performance related input lag and hit detection are also being investigated. These can have a really big impact on how the aiming feels so weGÇÖre looking at this from all angles. CCP Wolfman
Sete Clifton PSU GHOST SYNDICATE DARKSTAR ARMY 225	Posted - 2013.06.13 17:19:00 - [12] - Quote At the E3 presentation they mentioned they are still working on things like aiming, movement, and controls. I'm not sure if any of these improvements are coming with Uprising 1.2, but I wouldn't expect anything regarding aiming before early July when 1.2 hits.
Sete Clifton PSU GHOST SYNDICATE DARKSTAR ARMY 265	Posted - 2013.07.20 08:48:00 - [13] - Quote I know it's a little old, but for anyone who missed it (like me) here's a minor update from Hans' weekly CPM report regarding aiming. Quote: There is also an additional dev blog under construction that contains a discussion of the overhaul on aiming that is currently underway, which appears to be going quite well judging by the excitement we've seen in CCP Wolfman, who's been play testing the changes while chatting with the CPM in Skype. So it sounds like an update to the aiming system won't be coming until at least 1.4, though 1.5 wouldn't surprise me either.
Sete Clifton PSU GHOST SYNDICATE DARKSTAR ARMY 273	Posted - 2013.07.24 13:48:00 - [14] - Quote So now it's official (at least officially planned), the aiming update will be in 1.4: Quote: Aiming GÇô Aiming was worked on throughout 1.3 laying the foundations for the work me and Remnant are currently doing on it for 1.4. There simply wasnGÇÖt enough time to get it all ready and tested for 1.3. The pad and the mouse will be getting an update, testing is going well. IGÇÖll have a dev blog about this soon with more details.