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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 43 post(s) |
John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
League of Infamy
3754
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Posted - 2014.07.13 03:32:00 -
[691] - Quote
bogeyman m wrote:John Demonsbane wrote:-snip-
By the same token, imo, the relative popularity of the minmatar logi is because it's bonus is the only one that is totally worth not using a scout suit to do the job.
-snip-
I cracked your coded mesage: ... imo ... the minmatar logi is ... the only one that is totally worth ... using ... I couldn't agree more. Welcome to the dark side.
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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Larry Desmo
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
7
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Posted - 2014.07.13 05:21:00 -
[692] - Quote
here is my suggestion, make ambush and ambush oms separate like they used to be but for oms make it to where you can have the 2 havs along with 2 lavs and 1 dropship, the 2 tank limit is nice but the rest of the team suffers on larger maps the lavs would be nice support/escape vehicles |
Larry Desmo
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
7
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Posted - 2014.07.13 05:26:00 -
[693] - Quote
also i love my g1/s assault suit but i find the bonus useless |
WeapondigitX V7
The Exemplars
Top Men.
161
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Posted - 2014.07.13 06:47:00 -
[694] - Quote
Here is an idea to buff assault suits.
All assault suits get a bonus of +12% Aim Down Sights zoom (ADS zoom) per level for all light and sidearm weapons.
(should not be able to stack skills such as stacking amarr assault zoom bonus with caldari zoom bonus)
This would allow assault suits to have a higher possibility of getting headshots. This would not affect those that are already very skilled in battle (I don't mean those with high SP). But it would improve the average person in battle. |
Sole Fenychs
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
527
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Posted - 2014.07.13 08:59:00 -
[695] - Quote
WeapondigitX V7 wrote:Here is an idea to buff assault suits.
All assault suits get a bonus of +12% Aim Down Sights zoom (ADS zoom) per level for all light and sidearm weapons.
(should not be able to stack skills such as stacking amarr assault zoom bonus with caldari zoom bonus)
This would allow assault suits to have a higher possibility of getting headshots. This would not affect those that are already very skilled in battle (I don't mean those with high SP). But it would improve the average person in battle.
It would also **** up CQC.
This idea is an indirect Gallente nerf. |
Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
6271
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Posted - 2014.07.13 09:15:00 -
[696] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:Also, Aeon, are you saying you are now OK with the Amarr logi keeping the sidearm and just don't want to move it over to the cal as well? Or are you still in the no sidearms for any logi camp?
I'm a lot more likely to respond when people aren't trolling with 'herp derp your' in sum kinna anti-logi club'.
Yeah, I'm cool with the Amarr Logi keeping it's sidearm because it makes a lot of sacrifices to have it. Same fitting slots as assault, slower than the other logis, less equipment slots. I said -WAY BACK- at the beginning of all this that I was on the fence about whether or not we should remove it and only even considered it because CCP Rattati made a convincing argument that it being unique was stupid and I figured that by removing it, we had more opportunity to increase it's effectiveness in other areas. It wasn't because 'herpitty derp aeon duzznt like logis cuz reasons' and defaulting to that isn't going to impress anyone.
Useful Links
Aeon Amadi for CPM1
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pegasis prime
PROTO WOLVES
1782
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Posted - 2014.07.13 09:15:00 -
[697] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:The Amarr scout will have a natural low range high precision scan, moving slowly and tanking because of close proximity.
The Gallente scout will be the dampener master, being able to be unscannable by sacrificing a lot of slots.
The Caldari scout will be the natural long range, low ehp hunter.
All of them have the ability to change either range, dampening or precision to alter their desired utility.
so with the removal of the precision from cal scouts shall we have a rebuff to range as well I.e. back to 5% per level or even higher?
Proud Gunlogi pilot and forge gunner since August 2012.
I fought and bled for the State on Caldari prime.
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JDEZ09
Dark Side Alliance
69
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Posted - 2014.07.13 10:12:00 -
[698] - Quote
Am I getting this correcty here?
- Scout suits are losing their range bonuses except for the caldari scout?
Because if so, I would like to know what percentage of a range increase we would get per level.
The scouts understand that the percentage of that particular secondary bonus was a bit smaller than the primary bonus.
So if the Cal scout is to "Retain" the range bonus, I would like to hear confirmation that the percentage of range increase is simiar to the percentages of the usual primary scout bonus of 5% per level.
One thing that I need to point out now.
Caldari and Minmatar scouts can only put two Dampeners on a dropsuit. Couple this with the inate dampener skill bonus and proto cloak to get about 65% dampening.
NOW, while the cal scouts of present times of this post, usually run a maximum of 2 precision enhancers on their suits (so they arent Project legion tech demo squishy) the amarr scout will be able to run the two precision enhancers with no problem, because their armor can be tanked much easier. While the caldari scout is going to have to go Project Legion Tech Demo Squishy just to be a proper hunter. aka PLTDS
Most of them don't wanna be PLTDS, so in defiance they will just run full shields and try to stay dampened as possible. So be ready to see ALOT of that.
The assault buffs are much needed, but I agree with Appia that each race needs to benefit from their own light weapons. Just like the amarr, and just like the Minmatar, in a way that is unique from the commandos.
I would suggest this for our poor caldari assault brethren:
3% Rate of fire increase to railgun rifles/magsec smgs/bolt pistols per level (because you all know 5% per would be way OP!!)
2% Rail rifle/Magsec smg/ bolt pistol recoil reduction per level
- This puts the Caldari assault back in the scary category. with its Range based rail rifles able to crush other weapons that have damage dropoff at the RR optimal range but also;
Assault rail rifles and magsecs will more than make up for the spool up time in CQC, with recoil benefits in the hands of a true CALDARI ASSAULT GURU.
and boom, there you go.
And for the gallente assault:
3% increased effective Range of Plasma Rifles/ion pistols per level
3% heat buildup reduction to ion pistols / and or removing charge overheat and making a full charged shot heat up 80%
+ Holographic sights on automatic rifles (for Gallente Assaults ONLY)
Making their bonuses a super cool and unique twist that will entice MANY people to flock back to their trusty Duvalles and creodron breaches. the range boost will help balance their efficiency, and will utilise that awesome tight bullet dispersion that the plasma rifle shares. It will slighty bring the AR back to its glory days in the hands of those that deserve it the most. The Gal assaults, with their prestige sights and exclusive range. It will still keep caldari assaults in somewhat of a check with the plasma rifles ability to rip through shields at range, and vice versa with caldari assaults being able to rip apart armor tankers.
The holographic sight (or acog if you are not wanting to make one) will also help with aiming at multiple distances. It will also give the new players a very familiar experience from other FPSs, should they decide that they would want to have a sight on an automatic plasma weapon. They will know that Gallente is the way to go. I just personally think that would be very cool.
And IDK maybe make it optional for the iron sight loyalists. Even though IDK who would turn down a holo sight on a full auto plasma rifle.
I dont know if that is even possible, to have weapon attatchment exclusivity. But it sure would make me jealous :)
We want to see some numbers, and spreadsheets soon dev bros. These ideas placed in this thread all deserve some looking into. Hardened DUST veterans and New Bros alike, deserve to see some adjustments that will be cool, and fresh, to bring to the "Ever Evolving Battlefield."
Thank you for reading |
Nirwanda Vaughns
426th Infantry
642
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Posted - 2014.07.13 10:24:00 -
[699] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:
* We have identified almost all the suits that have the wrong colors and are trying to get those fixed.
how about restoring the Sever, Raven, Valor to Chromo colour schemes and also restoring the 'Neo' Logistics C-1 to the crazy all yellow suit? cos lets face it that was pretty awesome 
Also how's about bringing back the old AUR suits from closed beta too cos there were some pretty nice looking ones back in the day
Rolling with the punches
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
6504
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Posted - 2014.07.13 11:38:00 -
[700] - Quote
Nirwanda Vaughns wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:
* We have identified almost all the suits that have the wrong colors and are trying to get those fixed.
how about restoring the Sever, Raven, Valor to Chromo colour schemes and also restoring the 'Neo' Logistics C-1 to the crazy all yellow suit? cos lets face it that was pretty awesome Also how's about bringing back the old AUR suits from closed beta too cos there were some pretty nice looking ones back in the day
it seems as the game aged it became less beautiful.
see you space cowboy...
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Nirwanda Vaughns
426th Infantry
643
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Posted - 2014.07.13 11:49:00 -
[701] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:Nirwanda Vaughns wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:
* We have identified almost all the suits that have the wrong colors and are trying to get those fixed.
how about restoring the Sever, Raven, Valor to Chromo colour schemes and also restoring the 'Neo' Logistics C-1 to the crazy all yellow suit? cos lets face it that was pretty awesome Also how's about bringing back the old AUR suits from closed beta too cos there were some pretty nice looking ones back in the day it seems as the game aged it became less beautiful.
yup, remeber stuff like the firebrand suits in red and gold and the black/gold assault suit too or the pure white 'stormtrooper' assault. the old MAG suit colours were a lot nicer too than the cut/paste 'lets stick a camo on it' versions we have now
Rolling with the punches
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Leeroy Gannarsein
Legio DXIV
442
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Posted - 2014.07.13 12:15:00 -
[702] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:John Demonsbane wrote:Also, Aeon, are you saying you are now OK with the Amarr logi keeping the sidearm and just don't want to move it over to the cal as well? Or are you still in the no sidearms for any logi camp? I'm a lot more likely to respond when people aren't trolling with 'herp derp your' in sum kinna anti-logi club'. Yeah, I'm cool with the Amarr Logi keeping it's sidearm because it makes a lot of sacrifices to have it. Same fitting slots as assault, slower than the other logis, less equipment slots. I said -WAY BACK- at the beginning of all this that I was on the fence about whether or not we should remove it and only even considered it because CCP Rattati made a convincing argument that it being unique was stupid and I figured that by removing it, we had more opportunity to increase it's effectiveness in other areas. It wasn't because 'herpitty derp aeon duzznt like logis cuz reasons' and defaulting to that isn't going to impress anyone.
That was kind of unnecessary; I don't think John meant any offence by what he said, and to be quite honest, I'm not sure where you found it, considering it's true you were against any logi having a sidearm.
As far as sacrifices are concerned, if IWS is correct and the sidearm is in fact the least valuable slot in the game, I don't think it'd be unreasonable for Amarr's slot layout to be brought in line with the other suits as opposed to its arbitrarily having fewer slots, and that its fitting capabilities be improved; there's no reason why Amarr Logistics should have less fitting than the other logis, who universally max out at 102 PG if I'm remembering correctly. Considering that consumption-wise a sidearm is near enough to identical to an equipment slot without the potential for WP gain, and offering little more than extended survivability (which is why we want it, in the end) I don't think either of those requests is unreasonable.
It would seem like wisdom, but for the warning in my heart...
CCP BLOWOUT FOR CPM1
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The dark cloud
The Rainbow Effect
3521
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Posted - 2014.07.13 12:53:00 -
[703] - Quote
By the way do not touch the colour scheme on the C-1 assault "carbon". Its the only true unique looking suit and i have one  |
bogeyman m
Minmatar Republic
338
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Posted - 2014.07.13 12:54:00 -
[704] - Quote
Leeroy Gannarsein wrote:As far as sacrifices are concerned, if IWS is correct and the sidearm is in fact the least valuable slot in the game, I don't think it'd be unreasonable for Amarr's slot layout to be brought in line with the other suits as opposed to its arbitrarily having fewer slots, and that its fitting capabilities be improved; there's no reason why Amarr Logistics should have less fitting than the other logis, who universally max out at 102 PG if I'm remembering correctly. Considering that consumption-wise a sidearm is near enough to identical to an equipment slot without the potential for WP gain, and offering little more than extended survivability (which is why we want it, in the end) I don't think either of those requests is unreasonable.
Except that the sidearm slot is NOT the least valuable in the game. It is equally important, and often moreso depending on the circumstances, for both WPs and survivability. Sidearm OR extra equipment slot - make a choice. It's only fair.
Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
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Senator Snipe
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
166
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Posted - 2014.07.13 14:18:00 -
[705] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Malkai Inos wrote:The Nanite Injector WP scaling is great news. Is there any possibility of squeezing in tier based scaling for repair tools aswell? While to a lesser extent, they have the exact same problem of higher tiers being a clear downgrade in purely economic terms. Also, regarding OMS. Could you elaborate on why you believe further reducing the number of game modes, Pilots and AV infantry can participate in with their preferred playstyle, is necessary? Let me use a loaded question to articulate my concern: Would you say that non-AV capable infantry players require/deserve a vehicle free game mode for the sake of it, or is this decision purely driven by current balance issues and thus a (theoretically) temporary concession? Every single FPS game that I have played has a vehicle free TDM. I see no reason why DUST 514 should not have it. I am fine with vehicles moving to Dom and Skirm because they are objective based. Sure, but most FPS games don't have a long-term skill investment into those vehicles. Trust me when I say that I don't like where vehicles are at without them having a clear cut significant role to play on the battlefield beyond just slaying (which most infantry already do), but I was against taking them out of Ambush and now that we're taking them out of Ambush OMS... I'm starting to wonder where this is going to end. Don't remove them from the game-mode JUST BECAUSE every other game has a vehicle-free game mode, in fact, I'd argue that that's the -LAST- reason you should have to remove them from a game mode. It's important to understand that, even if it's over-powered as hell, it's still in the game and people are still choosing this as their play-style. By removing that play-style from certain game modes, you're effectively punishing the player for making that choice and limiting their options. My primary question is -WHY- are we removing them from the game modes? Because they're powerful? Of course they are, that's how they were designed. They were designed without any role to play -OTHER- than slaying and moving people around. Let me don the tin foil for a second and be clear of what I'm trying to illustrate, in order of the timeline of events: Black Ops HAVs were removed because they were in a weird place.
Marauder HAVs were removed because they were too powerful.
Scout LAVs, Logistics LAVs, Logistics Dropships, and Enforcer HAVs were removed because they were in a weird place.
Removed all of the variants of turrets (stabilized, etc) and completely overhauled the modules.
Removed vehicles from Ambush.
Now we're removing vehicles from Ambush OMS.
I get that they're unbalanced, I get that they're a pressure point, but if you ask me, I think these changes are being made because vehicles were designed poorly from the get go. Maybe I'm wrong, and I'm fully willing to accept that possibility, but it's starting to look like that poor design isn't being evaluated correctly and the slippery slope of trying to deal with them is taking effect. What functional role can vehicles perform that infantry can't?Why should they perform that role? What are the ways that they can be designed to perform that role? What are the ways we can consider that doesn't make that role over-powered? That's all I got to say on that. Will post my other thoughts on the hotfix in a separate post. In my opinion vehicles should never have been in Ambush. Simple. It's not because they are unbalanced or other reasons. I would be happy to have a vehicle only mode but that's never going to happen, due to how vehicles are brought into the game, and optimization problems. I just don't think vehicles are entitled to be in every mode. We would only be punishing vehicles if they were banned from all game modes.
Trust me, if you had left us the option to chose between ambush and ambush OMS while keeping the "Tanks in OMS only" rule, you wouln't hear our mouths. All you have to do is leave it how it is now, and just give us the option to chose between ambush and OMS. I don't like playing skirmish and dom, its too long. I don't see why i have to play these modes to destroy vehicles now.
My forge skills are unmatchable
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Nerf Everything
Xpert Intervention
0
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Posted - 2014.07.13 14:29:00 -
[706] - Quote
My ONLY COMPLAINT!!!!!!
Solo/small squads need reconsideration for OB support. I walk alone!
REASONABLE REQUEST......
1 player squad........ 3000 wp
2 player squad........ 3500 wp
3 player squad....... 4000 wp
4 player squad........ 4500 wp
5 player squad........ 5000 wp
This has ALWAYS been the problem with dust. You throw ALL players into the same categories.
Proto squads can EASILY get 5000-10000 wp.
Feel free to nerf everything else!
OB's are my ONLY reason for living! If you take that away...........
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bogeyman m
Minmatar Republic
339
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Posted - 2014.07.13 14:41:00 -
[707] - Quote
Nerf Everything wrote:My ONLY COMPLAINT!!!!!!
Solo/small squads need reconsideration for OB support. I walk alone!
REASONABLE REQUEST......
1 player squad........ 3000 wp
2 player squad........ 3500 wp
3 player squad........ 4000 wp
4 player squad........ 4500 wp
5 player squad........ 5000 wp
This has ALWAYS been the problem with dust. You throw ALL players into the same categories.
Proto squads can EASILY get 5000-10000 wp.
Feel free to nerf everything else!
OB's are my ONLY reason for living! If you take that away...........
Alternate version:
1 player squad........ 2000 wp
2 player squad........ 3000 wp
3 player squad........ 4000 wp
4 player squad........ 5000 wp
5 player squad........ 6000 wp
Each subsequent OB would cost an additional 1000 WP. (ie the 2nd OB for a 5 player squad would cost 7000 WP)
Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
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Dunce Masterson
Savage Bullet
118
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Posted - 2014.07.13 16:15:00 -
[708] - Quote
limiting CPU/PG is just wrong they don't do that in eve online with max fitting skills you can fit pretty much what ever you want on your ships its a shame players cry buckets of tiers tell they get their way in this game.
players should be able to fit their racial weapons and the kind of tank and utility they want on their suit with maxed fitting skills.
to bad this game dosnt have all the racial weapons and not all tank styles are equal like they are in eve online.
I don't even know why I bother.
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Bethhy
Ancient Exiles.
General Tso's Alliance
2207
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Posted - 2014.07.13 16:19:00 -
[709] - Quote
Assault's need to fill the "Light Assault" Function on the battlefield. not the Cal and Gallente Scout.... The Ability to be a fast moving, High damage suit with a little more health then a scout. Something with a more effective indirect damage bonus.. like RoF or something more Racial specific to the class. Basically sacrificing the ability to be "Tanky" for damage and mobility, and eliminating the need for scouts to fit and try and half fill this role.
Where Commandos Fulfill the "Heavy Assault" Role on the battlefield. Having a Straight damage bonus and the ability to be "Tanky" but at the sacrifice of mobility.. They still have an equipment slot alowing them to setup on outside perimeters and be the masters of toe to toe at medium range gun fights.
**P.S.**I think both classes have to be tweaked together or the balance will be off.** |
Nirwanda Vaughns
426th Infantry
644
|
Posted - 2014.07.13 16:43:00 -
[710] - Quote
bogeyman m wrote:Leeroy Gannarsein wrote:As far as sacrifices are concerned, if IWS is correct and the sidearm is in fact the least valuable slot in the game, I don't think it'd be unreasonable for Amarr's slot layout to be brought in line with the other suits as opposed to its arbitrarily having fewer slots, and that its fitting capabilities be improved; there's no reason why Amarr Logistics should have less fitting than the other logis, who universally max out at 102 PG if I'm remembering correctly. Considering that consumption-wise a sidearm is near enough to identical to an equipment slot without the potential for WP gain, and offering little more than extended survivability (which is why we want it, in the end) I don't think either of those requests is unreasonable.
Except that the sidearm slot is NOT the least valuable in the game. It is equally important, and often moreso depending on the circumstances, for both WPs and survivability. Sidearm OR extra equipment slot - make a choice. It's only fair.
ishukone assault SMG with maxed skills is usually better than the Assault Rifle these days
Rolling with the punches
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Nirwanda Vaughns
426th Infantry
644
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Posted - 2014.07.13 16:50:00 -
[711] - Quote
all i see from vehicle drivers whining about vehicles being removed in Ambush is cos it means they won't have an 'I Win' button and they'd have to play skirmish and domi where people expect to be finding a mass of vehicles and they're scared they're gonna get their a*ses kicked instead of lol'ing at the infantry in ambush day in day out in a hope their ZOMGPWNDAWEOSME kdr will add a few extra millimeter to their d**cks and impress the laydees.
but on topic of Ambush/OMS with the removal of vehicles can we have the maps back to a similar size that they used to be? maps like the research facility, the main city is big enough instead of havign a huge map with 3 sites to run around aimlessly. obviously keep them with enough movement to prevent too much spawn killign but then to be fair if their are going to be changes to Ambush i think the primary one shoudl be a better 'smart' deploy... cos that aint smart
Rolling with the punches
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Ryme Intrinseca
The Rainbow Effect
Dark Taboo
1476
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Posted - 2014.07.13 17:08:00 -
[712] - Quote
Here is the data to show that the Amarr logi is avoided at proto level, due to the fact it is very hard to fit with max skills due to the puny PG, has fewer slots than other logis (even including the sidearm), and is the only logi with a bonus that almost never applies in competitive play (because you are sure to die in competitive play). |
RedBleach LeSanglant
Hellstorm Inc
League of Infamy
618
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Posted - 2014.07.13 17:36:00 -
[713] - Quote
I can comment very little on scout, assault, and heavy changes. BUT when it concerns logis I must get involved. I have played each Race and can go on about each variation that makes up a Logistics suit.
This Proposal ....:
* Move all logistics to the same number of Equipment slots per tier, removing the Amarr sidearm. Reduce Logi speed slightly and remove Cloak fitting bonus. Same total of high and low slots as well per tier.
- Is inadequate if any change is to be made - as these are not the changes that should be made at this time.
- Is unnecessary - when there has been no dominant problem other than slayers jumping classes - logis have stayed logis.
- Is retribution for imbalances that exist in other classes and not the logistics class.
- Is attempting tiericide that eliminates racial differences H/L/E slot counts that in turn benefited the natural base stats of each option.
- Is without basis in the community...
thus, this must be either whim or stem from some analysis of data.
AMARR And The SideArm
The Amarr sacrifices more than an equipment slot for a side arm. While it does have the largest base hp (a whole 30!) more than the others it cannot compete in any tanking competition - it will always lose to the suits with more slots. The rest of its stats are pretty crap as well (basis for logis) - lacking slot count, horrible speed, WORST RACIAL BONUS EVER, and lower PG so that it can't even fill its Bonus Assigned Role effectively. It is reasonable the worst Logistics choice ever. THE ONLY REASON, really, to use this logi is to be a half logi half assault character with none of the bonuses from either.
To this end it can use all Logi equipment as well as an assault - no bonuses - (Drop Uplinks are not Logi items - that is a separate discussion) and use a weapon and sidearm with no bonuses either that would come from the assault side. The only benefits is to have some equipment on hand for the team (or yourself) and semi slay-and/or semi-logi that's it. The GAL beats it in Tank and EQ. Minmatar in Tank and EQ. and CAL beats it in tanking and its slaying abilities because of all its slots.
And yet I love to play this logi - because it is a challenge.
The Amarr pays to high a price for the wealth of one side arm slot. But it is the only thing it has - the side-arm is the racial bonus. If that is removed it truly has no value outside of a PC battle.
Tiericide for Logis
If this is a test - communicate it as such. Perhaps we would be willing with a plan that can be explained - so I guess we are still waiting for the details (i just haven't seen them).
IF it is not just a test CCP wants to conduct then lets get into the details of HOW will the slots and equipment be equalized?
will it be H/L/E: 5/4/3 or 4/5/4 or 4/4/4 or 3/3/4?
A 4/5/4 Amarr logi would be awesome but a 3/3/4 Amarr is old news and not really a change beyond one more equipment slot that couldn't be filled due to pg/cpu limits.
ARE we going back to the old Minmatar Standard that was in the old days for all logi support? will this mean that all suits will be flattened? Racial diversity diminished? boiling this whole game into separate classes, same stats between them, and only costume differences? I WOULD REALLY LIKE SOME MORE DETAILS!
IF so there will be another re-balancing act when this all hit the other classes as well. IFF we are going to do this lets do it right and open up a DEV thread for balancing.
IN MY view the logi of each race should have the equal H/L slots of its ASSAULT brother (but that needs a whole balancing review as well) with lower base stats and more equipment slots. I think it would be great to be able to swap a side arm for a grenade slot and vice versa.... if we were throwing ideas into the pot that is.
SUMMARY:
Leave the AMARR side arm for now.
Present us with this Tiericide Proposal so we can rip it up/add our experience to the idea.
Generally a bad moment to just drop this out of the blue with other issues needing priority.
The Logi Code. Cross Atu for CPM1 - A logical choice
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aaaasdff ertgfdd
124
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Posted - 2014.07.13 17:46:00 -
[714] - Quote
RedBleach LeSanglant wrote:I can comment very little on scout, assault, and heavy changes. BUT when it concerns logis I must get involved. I have played each Race and can go on about each variation that makes up a Logistics suit. This Proposal ....: * Move all logistics to the same number of Equipment slots per tier, removing the Amarr sidearm. Reduce Logi speed slightly and remove Cloak fitting bonus. Same total of high and low slots as well per tier. - Is inadequate if any change is to be made - as these are not the changes that should be made at this time.
- Is unnecessary - when there has been no dominant problem other than slayers jumping classes - logis have stayed logis.
- Is retribution for imbalances that exist in other classes and not the logistics class.
- Is attempting tiericide that eliminates racial differences H/L/E slot counts that in turn benefited the natural base stats of each option.
- Is without basis in the community...
thus, this must be either whim or stem from some analysis of data. AMARR And The SideArmThe Amarr sacrifices more than an equipment slot for a side arm. While it does have the largest base hp (a whole 30!) more than the others it cannot compete in any tanking competition - it will always lose to the suits with more slots. The rest of its stats are pretty crap as well (basis for logis) - lacking slot count, horrible speed, WORST RACIAL BONUS EVER, and lower PG so that it can't even fill its Bonus Assigned Role effectively. It is reasonable the worst Logistics choice ever. THE ONLY REASON, really, to use this logi is to be a half logi half assault character with none of the bonuses from either. To this end it can use all Logi equipment as well as an assault - no bonuses - (Drop Uplinks are not Logi items - that is a separate discussion) and use a weapon and sidearm with no bonuses either that would come from the assault side. The only benefits is to have some equipment on hand for the team (or yourself) and semi slay-and/or semi-logi that's it. The GAL beats it in Tank and EQ. Minmatar in Tank and EQ. and CAL beats it in tanking and its slaying abilities because of all its slots. And yet I love to play this logi - because it is a challenge. The Amarr pays to high a price for the wealth of one side arm slot. But it is the only thing it has - the side-arm is the racial bonus. If that is removed it truly has no value outside of a PC battle. Tiericide for LogisIf this is a test - communicate it as such. Perhaps we would be willing with a plan that can be explained - so I guess we are still waiting for the details (i just haven't seen them). IF it is not just a test CCP wants to conduct then lets get into the details of HOW will the slots and equipment be equalized? will it be H/L/E: 5/4/3 or 4/5/4 or 4/4/4 or 3/3/4? A 4/5/4 Amarr logi would be awesome but a 3/3/4 Amarr is old news and not really a change beyond one more equipment slot that couldn't be filled due to pg/cpu limits. ARE we going back to the old Minmatar Standard that was in the old days for all logi support? will this mean that all suits will be flattened? Racial diversity diminished? boiling this whole game into separate classes, same stats between them, and only costume differences? I WOULD REALLY LIKE SOME MORE DETAILS! IF so there will be another re-balancing act when this all hit the other classes as well. IFF we are going to do this lets do it right and open up a DEV thread for balancing. IN MY view the logi of each race should have the equal H/L slots of its ASSAULT brother (but that needs a whole balancing review as well) with lower base stats and more equipment slots. I think it would be great to be able to swap a side arm for a grenade slot and vice versa.... if we were throwing ideas into the pot that is. SUMMARY:Leave the AMARR side arm for now. Present us with this Tiericide Proposal so we can rip it up/add our experience to the idea. Generally a bad moment to just drop this out of the blue with other issues needing priority.
Damn, its like I said it, except without all my insults and sarcasm. I completely agree.
The biggest thing that bothers me here is the notion of tiericide. We dont want it. Let me be clear CCP Rattati, WE DON'T WANT TIERICIDE in Dust. We want choice, freedom, diversity, uniqueness. Im sure tiericide makes your job easier but we do not want it. Unique stats, slots, and design, we want it all. It gives us the freedom.
Cloaks are equipment, they do not belong to scouts, dont try to make an item only for a certain suit. You give logis a fitting bonus, it applies to all equipment. Dont cop duces now.The biggest problem I have is WHERE IS THIS COMING FROM? Why are you doing this now? Who wants this? Who asked for it? Why are you artificially making an issue where there is none? An answer please.
INFINITE DIVERSITY IDIC/
Peaceful Pirate No Dagger Just Swagger/
Num1 AHole in Dust/ Politically Incorrect MAN
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
League of Infamy
3773
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Posted - 2014.07.13 19:50:00 -
[715] - Quote
Leeroy Gannarsein wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:John Demonsbane wrote:Also, Aeon, are you saying you are now OK with the Amarr logi keeping the sidearm and just don't want to move it over to the cal as well? Or are you still in the no sidearms for any logi camp? I'm a lot more likely to respond when people aren't trolling with 'herp derp your' in sum kinna anti-logi club'. Yeah, I'm cool with the Amarr Logi keeping it's sidearm because it makes a lot of sacrifices to have it. Same fitting slots as assault, slower than the other logis, less equipment slots. I said -WAY BACK- at the beginning of all this that I was on the fence about whether or not we should remove it and only even considered it because CCP Rattati made a convincing argument that it being unique was stupid and I figured that by removing it, we had more opportunity to increase it's effectiveness in other areas. It wasn't because 'herpitty derp aeon duzznt like logis cuz reasons' and defaulting to that isn't going to impress anyone. That was kind of unnecessary; I don't think John meant any offence by what he said, and to be quite honest, I'm not sure where you found it, considering it's true you were against any logi having a sidearm.
Yeah, IDK Aeon, I mean, it's a true statement, no trolling needed or implied. There are currently two camps, the one who wants the Amarr to keep it's sidearm and the one that doesn't. You were quite firmly in the latter group, at least initially. If you have changed your mind, that's one less (pretty influential) person I need to try to convince otherwise.
...Of that, at least. I still think the Amarr logi needs work, as RedBleach beautifully pointed out. It's fitting power is abysmal and it needs another low, even with the sidearm. But that's another discussion.
Bethhy wrote:Assault's need to fill the "Light Assault" Function on the battlefield. not the Cal and Gallente Scout.... The Ability to be a fast moving, High damage suit with a little more health then a scout. Something with a more effective indirect damage bonus.. like RoF or something more Racial specific to the class. Basically sacrificing the ability to be "Tanky" for damage and mobility, and eliminating the need for scouts to fit and try and half fill this role.
Where Commandos Fulfill the "Heavy Assault" Role on the battlefield. Having a Straight damage bonus and the ability to be "Tanky" but at the sacrifice of mobility.. They still have an equipment slot alowing them to setup on outside perimeters and be the masters of toe to toe at medium range gun fights.
**P.S.**I think both classes have to be tweaked together or the balance will be off.**
I could not agree more on virtually all of this. Either isolating or pitting the medium frames against eachother right now in terms of balance is the wrong approach entirely because that's not the root cause of the "assault problem" we've been talking about for, what, a year now? (I know that's not exactly what Bethhy meant, but the same logic applies)
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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RedBleach LeSanglant
Hellstorm Inc
League of Infamy
621
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Posted - 2014.07.13 19:58:00 -
[716] - Quote
Returning to the AMARR SIDEARM and TIERECIDE for LOGI's
SLOT LAYOUT
With some more education and carefully perusing the thread the summary is to make each logi have the same number of H/L/E slots at each tier, not that each slot layout would be the same regardless of race - meaning we are all not going to be 4/4/4 regardless of race.
Meaning: Min Proto: 12 total slots so each logi has 12 slots at proto with 4 of those being equipment.
EXAMPLE: MIN 4/4/4
GAL 3/5/4
CAL 5/3/4????
AMR 3/5/4????
The change sounds like it includes each tier having the same amount of available equipment slots. If that means that each starts with 2 std, 3 adv, 4 pro or 3 std, 3adv, 4 pro I don't know - we don't have those details yet.
AMARR SLOT and SIDE ARM
Honestly it needs to keep the weapon and stay at the 3 max equipment it achieved at ADV level because it sucks so much at general logi-ing the sidearm is what gives it the small push to be a little more and even viable as a logi. So the greater question is how to balance it if we keep the sidearm.
Do we draw in the Caldari or Galente to also have a side arm and lose one of their coveted slots? That wont fly... well maybe with the Caldari - sorry I just don't see many of them on the field, ever - just my experience. The draw of the Caldari was the Slot layout - but the CPU nerf shut them down hard - they too can't always fit their intended racial bonus equipment. So, do we draw a High slot and make them a 4/4/3 logi with a sidearm?
Well now that beats the crap out of the Amarr 3/4/3 with a sidearm. Well then perhaps the slot adjustments would look like this:
CAL 5/3/3 + SA or 4/4/3 + SA if
AMR 3/5/3 + SA or 4/4/3 + SA as well....
The first iterations are more likely if we were to see that a sidearm = 1eq slot. The Amarr in general need to be brought up to slot parity to equal their defined qualities - if they tank armor they should have the lows to do so and beat Gallente at it (thus the slightly higher base HP - old argument but still true) but that goes for all of the Amarr classes. Also MEDUIM suits must have the same H/L slots in each branch of ASSAULT and LOGI making it the equipment and Weapon specializations that define their roles.
Further Role Differentiation
But please, above all remember that this is an FPS and as such even a logi needs to defend, attack, and sometimes have those PWN Moments to brag about.
Logis pay a heavy price (yes ISK too) for carrying equipment - sucky base stats - and to further define the role I do like the increase in fitting bonuses described by the devs and then equalizing the MED suits and the other suggestions to have the racial equipment bonuses apply to all logi suits, just in lesser degrees as a role bonus. SO that logis can always logi better than any other class regardless of the logi used.
This is more acceptable than most other changes, but how to fix the assaults?... I don't know, that's not my specialty.
The Logi Code. Cross Atu for CPM1 - A logical choice
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Luna McDuffing
COALICION LATINA
27
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Posted - 2014.07.13 20:51:00 -
[717] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:The Amarr scout will have a natural low range high precision scan, moving slowly and tanking because of close proximity.
The Gallente scout will be the dampener master, being able to be unscannable by sacrificing a lot of slots.
The Caldari scout will be the natural long range, low ehp hunter.
All of them have the ability to change either range, dampening or precision to alter their desired utility.
What you said does make sense but, you know what else make sense? dropsuit respect. I chose the caldari scout exactly for its precision enhancement capabilities. If you want to give the ammar scout presicion enhancement that is cool but, I don't think it is fair to remove what you already have. i.e. don't take precicion enhancement away from caladari.
I use the gallente logi so the change in ammar logi side-arm doesn't affect me but, I do see it as unfair. I know many people in my corp that went ammar logi just for the side arm and I myself have concidered as well. On top of that you want to make them move slower than they already do. If this is the case then I would rather be a minmatar scout because the speed issue has been one of the torns on my side. Then again it does have that self repair bonus hhhmmm!!! Still respect for the suits.
The way I see it if new equipment or ability come along then no respect is needed because that is like real life. In real life you buy a truck that can tow 6,000 pounds and next year a newer model can tow 8,000lb well, that is just the way it is. New technology better equipment. The way you guys do things when the new 8,000lb truck comes along the old truck can no longer tow 6,000lb. |
shady merc
RisingSuns
Dark Taboo
49
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Posted - 2014.07.13 22:12:00 -
[718] - Quote
Assault change
The above link is my thought on fixing the Assault suit. Basically I believe we need to change the CPU and PG of our weapons and modules so we reward each suit for fitting items that are in line with their role. Example by making Kin Cats High CPU and Low PG We could reward Scouts for using them while making them less likely on other suits due to high CPU demand.
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Leeroy Gannarsein
Legio DXIV
451
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Posted - 2014.07.14 00:09:00 -
[719] - Quote
bogeyman m wrote:Leeroy Gannarsein wrote:As far as sacrifices are concerned, if IWS is correct and the sidearm is in fact the least valuable slot in the game, I don't think it'd be unreasonable for Amarr's slot layout to be brought in line with the other suits as opposed to its arbitrarily having fewer slots, and that its fitting capabilities be improved; there's no reason why Amarr Logistics should have less fitting than the other logis, who universally max out at 102 PG if I'm remembering correctly. Considering that consumption-wise a sidearm is near enough to identical to an equipment slot without the potential for WP gain, and offering little more than extended survivability (which is why we want it, in the end) I don't think either of those requests is unreasonable.
Except that the sidearm slot is NOT the least valuable in the game. It is equally important, and often moreso depending on the circumstances, for both WPs and survivability. Sidearm OR extra equipment slot - make a choice. It's only fair.
I did make a choice. My personal preference would be to forgo the extra tanking slot and gaining an equipment. In the end the sudearm's main use on my logistics suit is to save me when I've been silly. It's basically just an extended magazine with lower DPS.
It would seem like wisdom, but for the warning in my heart...
CCP BLOWOUT FOR CPM1
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knight guard fury
Carbon 7
Iron Oxide.
1101
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Posted - 2014.07.14 01:02:00 -
[720] - Quote
(as i read the last 3-4 pages and so on, i think im gonna say something about how i feel towards some of this stuff)
Logi's
i agree with some of you that the logi's shouldn't be all the same and that the amarr logi should at the least have 1 less slot whether its 1 less hig/low or 1 less Equipment slot. the idea that somebody brought up, of the logi's having 12 slots but different in thier ways is much more preferable than what CCP suggested to us.
Scouts
since the Caldari scout is loosing its scanning bonus and is keeping its range i recommend that it stays at 5% but the other scout should have a 3% bonus to range since the caldari scout should be able to out range the other scouts naturally. i am also worried that the Amarr scout will be FOTM since it is armor tanked and will be gaining the passive scanning bonus. in return i think that it shuold be an efficiency bonus so you have to use the module and reduce the bonus to 2% or 3% so it wont be so powerful as it is now.
Game modes
i have to disagree with CCP trying to remove ambush OMS, they are simply coming at this the wrong way because everyone is crying thier eyes out for vehicles to be removed from a specific game mode. instead they should seperte them so all players can select between regular ambush and ambush OMS, so vehicle users who want to make isk fast can do OMS and infantry that hate vehicles can do regular ambush.
Vehicles
i like that ADS's are going to get a price drop, but please dont make them too cheap like tanks. and on that note, it doesn't make sense that tanks are crazy cheap. people can spam them without even going isk negative until after the 5-6 tank. the price of tanks should go up, but not too much, preferably back to when the STD tanks cost 200k per tank and militia should cost a base of around 100k per tank. that way if you want to spam tanks you will go isk negative quicker and people are less likely to tank spam a particular game mode.
back to ADS's, its crazy how pythons are insanely vulnerable to collision and bumping while the incubus is highly resistant to collision, crashing, landing, and etc. the python needs a dmg reduction to collision and crashing. and when it comes to dog fighting the python is pretty much ALWAYS the second choice to fight in since rail gins tear apart pythons in no time. they just cant compete against incubus's since armor is dominant over shields. even a triple harden'd python cant withstand a simple fight against an incubus.
(may add more later)
SP earned perday/week
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