|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 43 post(s) |
Leeroy Gannarsein
Legio DXIV
425
   |
Posted - 2014.07.12 13:17:00 -
[1] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:
.
.
Logistics are a support class, their entire role centralizes around supporting their team, so the inevitable question that I have toward all of this hoopla about the sidearms is: Why is the sidearm essential to the Logistics' role?
.
.
Why would a supportive suit want to have a secondary weapon? IN ORDER TO BRING A SUPPORTIVE LIGHT ARM FOR THE TEAM For Grudds sake. Fourth time I have to emphasize this. Supportive weapon like laser, mass driver, swarm launcher or something of the sort. Yea yea with laser you can go 30/0 in an ambush yadi yaddi. Still any one of those weps is a lolfit without a sidearm, no matter how murderous they are in optimal conditions. So than don't bring a support weapon to the fight... You have a Light Weapon slot, that's pretty diverse in and of itself for a main weapon. Saying that you need a sidearm to make use of your support weapon in a support role to be more combat effective, on top of having the capability to have some incredible defense, is asking for everything. IMO, should only be able to choose two out of Offense/Defense/Support. I don't see "because I want to use a support weapon" as a valid reason why we should give any other Logistics a sidearm - the Amarr works well enough with it because it makes some actual sacrifices to have that sidearm. Maybe try using that if you want to roll support weapons. What we certainly don't need is a Caldari Logi with a sidearm, thing is already combat effective without. Focus on the equipment. Encourage Logistics to actually utilize the stuff that they're designed to use.
I was under the impression that they were suggestig removing a slot in exchange for the sidearm - essentially it'd be just like the Amarr Logistics only with a preference for shields.
I would like it if the two suits had 5/3 and 3/5 layouts respectively; that way their off-tank is minimal but their main-tank can be significantly supplemented.
I can't say I'm a big fan of adding an equipment slot, although I was the other day and could probably be convinced that way.
Essentially, rather than the MinLogi or GalLogi where they're actively logi-ing, even if it is only once per 40s, Amarr and Caldari logistics have no active ability. I'm not really sure about the whole 'CalLogi getting a sidearm' thing, to be frank; it seems to me that CalLogi's bonus is far more 'instant' in the sense that you don't drop hives for someone else to use five minutes down the track; you drop them because someone needs ammo or health now.
As opposed to Amarr Logistics whose bonus basically requires that it be a competent combat suit, simply because its bonus does not function when it's dead.
Were this changed I could possibly see fit to removing the sidearm (though I'd not be happy about it).
It would seem like wisdom, but for the warning in my heart...
CCP BLOWOUT FOR CPM1
|
Leeroy Gannarsein
Legio DXIV
427
|
Posted - 2014.07.12 14:07:00 -
[2] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Leeroy Gannarsein wrote:
I was under the impression that they were suggestig removing a slot in exchange for the sidearm - essentially it'd be just like the Amarr Logistics only with a preference for shields.
I would like it if the two suits had 5/3 and 3/5 layouts respectively; that way their off-tank is minimal but their main-tank can be significantly supplemented.
I can't say I'm a big fan of adding an equipment slot, although I was the other day and could probably be convinced that way.
Essentially, rather than the MinLogi or GalLogi where they're actively logi-ing, even if it is only once per 40s, Amarr and Caldari logistics have no active ability. I'm not really sure about the whole 'CalLogi getting a sidearm' thing, to be frank; it seems to me that CalLogi's bonus is far more 'instant' in the sense that you don't drop hives for someone else to use five minutes down the track; you drop them because someone needs ammo or health now.
As opposed to Amarr Logistics whose bonus basically requires that it be a competent combat suit, simply because its bonus does not function when it's dead.
Were this changed I could possibly see fit to removing the sidearm (though I'd not be happy about it).
So in my mind it isn't about 'sacrifices' per se, but more about the actual functioning of the suit. As it is, Amarr is a reasonable combat suit. Without a sidearm it might as well just spam the links and hide behind everyone else.
Were the bonus' functionality changed it'd be more like the CalLogi in that it can afford to die simply because people will still be using its bonus.
NB: I am not suggesting I should be able to switch suits and keep the bonus. I'd suggest that it'd make a lot more sense if, as long as I am/was in an Amarr Logistics I'm benefiting from the bonus. As soon as I'm in a different suit? Gone. My links are just like everyone else's and I might as well be Minmatar.
Yeh, it's kind of a shoddy system overall to be honest. The whole thing about it though is that this appeal to 'racial equipment' was botched from the beginning and is entirely arbitrary. It goes off looks, if anything. I have notes from closed beta when we had CreoDron Dropuplinks, CreoDron/Allotek Nanohives, Viziam Repair Tools... Not sure how many of those are still in game but the fact that they exist(ed) goes to show that the equipment isn't restricted to certain races and we're more apt to provide a trickle-down effect to the other logistics. This isn't to say that all Logistics should get bonuses to all Equipment - not at all. Although, having a dual bonus just makes sense. Amarr specializing in Drop Uplinks with a bonus to - I dunno - repair tools as a secondary. Not as good as Minmatar but still effective. That way they're not "twiddling their thumbs" as it was so vibrantly described but at the same time they're not trying to over-ride yet another combat role. The overall goal, I think, is to encourage players to WANT to use those support options instead of just leaving the equipment slots blank and jacking up armor/shields to ridiculous levels solely because they can and we provide them the means to do so. I don't think it's too late for Logistics to actually utilize equipment to dynamically change the match and I seriously don't think we should default to, "Welp, mechanics suck, guess we'll make it another combat role" just yet. Might as well just run Scout at that point what with it having two equipment slots anyway.
Look, the thing is when I'm running my Amarr Logi I don't want to run a combat role, but I've not much option. If I wanted to play a combat role I could Assault, HMG Sentinel or CalScout.
When I'm in my Logistics suit, though, my bonus only applies when I'm alive. To that end, then, Amarr Logistics should be capable of performing a combat role better than other logis, but it should certainly not in any way compete with assaults or heavies, and I think at the moment it's in a reasonably good place relative to Amarr Assault in that sense.
The mechanics being as poor as they are and as unchangeable as they are, I don't see much choice in our options.
I don't want another combat suit. What I want is a suit capable of defending itself. Against an equally skilled, equally SP-invested Assault or Sentinel my Logistics frame should always die, that's unarguable.
I should, however, stand a better chance of surviving (if only thanks to crappy mechanics).
Forgive me if I've totally misconstrued your point, or if I've rambled completely off topic, or if I'm just rehashing points I (or you, I guess) have made already; I shouldn't be trying to think this late at night :)
It would seem like wisdom, but for the warning in my heart...
CCP BLOWOUT FOR CPM1
|
Leeroy Gannarsein
Legio DXIV
442
|
Posted - 2014.07.13 12:15:00 -
[3] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:John Demonsbane wrote:Also, Aeon, are you saying you are now OK with the Amarr logi keeping the sidearm and just don't want to move it over to the cal as well? Or are you still in the no sidearms for any logi camp? I'm a lot more likely to respond when people aren't trolling with 'herp derp your' in sum kinna anti-logi club'. Yeah, I'm cool with the Amarr Logi keeping it's sidearm because it makes a lot of sacrifices to have it. Same fitting slots as assault, slower than the other logis, less equipment slots. I said -WAY BACK- at the beginning of all this that I was on the fence about whether or not we should remove it and only even considered it because CCP Rattati made a convincing argument that it being unique was stupid and I figured that by removing it, we had more opportunity to increase it's effectiveness in other areas. It wasn't because 'herpitty derp aeon duzznt like logis cuz reasons' and defaulting to that isn't going to impress anyone.
That was kind of unnecessary; I don't think John meant any offence by what he said, and to be quite honest, I'm not sure where you found it, considering it's true you were against any logi having a sidearm.
As far as sacrifices are concerned, if IWS is correct and the sidearm is in fact the least valuable slot in the game, I don't think it'd be unreasonable for Amarr's slot layout to be brought in line with the other suits as opposed to its arbitrarily having fewer slots, and that its fitting capabilities be improved; there's no reason why Amarr Logistics should have less fitting than the other logis, who universally max out at 102 PG if I'm remembering correctly. Considering that consumption-wise a sidearm is near enough to identical to an equipment slot without the potential for WP gain, and offering little more than extended survivability (which is why we want it, in the end) I don't think either of those requests is unreasonable.
It would seem like wisdom, but for the warning in my heart...
CCP BLOWOUT FOR CPM1
|
Leeroy Gannarsein
Legio DXIV
451
|
Posted - 2014.07.14 00:09:00 -
[4] - Quote
bogeyman m wrote:Leeroy Gannarsein wrote:As far as sacrifices are concerned, if IWS is correct and the sidearm is in fact the least valuable slot in the game, I don't think it'd be unreasonable for Amarr's slot layout to be brought in line with the other suits as opposed to its arbitrarily having fewer slots, and that its fitting capabilities be improved; there's no reason why Amarr Logistics should have less fitting than the other logis, who universally max out at 102 PG if I'm remembering correctly. Considering that consumption-wise a sidearm is near enough to identical to an equipment slot without the potential for WP gain, and offering little more than extended survivability (which is why we want it, in the end) I don't think either of those requests is unreasonable.
Except that the sidearm slot is NOT the least valuable in the game. It is equally important, and often moreso depending on the circumstances, for both WPs and survivability. Sidearm OR extra equipment slot - make a choice. It's only fair.
I did make a choice. My personal preference would be to forgo the extra tanking slot and gaining an equipment. In the end the sudearm's main use on my logistics suit is to save me when I've been silly. It's basically just an extended magazine with lower DPS.
It would seem like wisdom, but for the warning in my heart...
CCP BLOWOUT FOR CPM1
|
|
|
| |
|