Ok, I can see the confusion brewing, logi slots PER tier will be the same, 3, for ADV, 4 for PRO etc. Amarr sidearm is changed to Equipment slot and another slot added to bring them to the same total number of slots as other races at all tiers.

The Amarr scout will have a natural low range high precision scan, moving slowly and tanking because of close proximity.

The Gallente scout will be the dampener master, being able to be unscannable by sacrificing a lot of slots.

The Caldari scout will be the natural long range, low ehp hunter.

All of them have the ability to change either range, dampening or precision to alter their desired utility.

I'm sorry but our data shows that logis outnumber assaults by a huge margin. Nothing about this change will make logis worse at being logis.

Logistics are supposed to be facilitators of combat as time I checked. There is of course chance of change in definition over time but so far they've have been remaining to that goal still.

I totally disagree with this. The issue isn't that logis are better at kiling than assaults. It is that scouts are better logis and killers than either of the med. frames. The bonuese put into place need to help assaults compete with scouts from a killing point of view and logis be more competetive from a support point of view.

Ah, okay, I see now...

Although, I think this is a pretty big cog in the overall balance of things at the expense of just having the Cal/Amarr Logi bonus apply after death but not with a suit change. So if you die, the bonus isn't lost, but if you change suits after death or at a supply depot, it would be.

It makes sense that Logistics would -NOT- have sidearms as a means of encouraging them to actually Logi instead of Slay, giving them the opportunity to do so as a means of circumventing doing things correctly is the problem we've always had with Dust 514 and I think we should go the extra mile to make sure it is, in fact, done correctly.

The bonuses applying to passive equipment (DU and Nanohive) is more reason, to me, NOT to give them a sidearm in the first place because once you drop the stuff there's no further reason to continue playing the Support Role unless you really like using those other equipment pieces. I just don't see much popularity in running all DU or all Nanohive fits. My concern is that players will drop their passive equipment and reap the benefits while slaying.

Sure, but you could make that argument about other suits as well. Why should I use the Gallente Logi, even with it's active bonus, when the Scouts are so much more effective at the job? We're taking measures to change that, sure, but it's not exactly like people are flocking to the Gallente Logi right now.

And, again, cross-racial bonuses would help immensely with this. Amarr Logi with specialized bonuses to Drop Uplinks with a secondary bonus to Repair Tools would just make sense since they are Armor tankers, same could be said about the Gallente Logi as well. Gallente Logi only has the bonus to the Active Scanners and even if they are Active, what am I doing when I'm not using the one scanner? Can I have a sidearm on my Gallente Logistics as well..?

as long as I can use my minmatar logi for babysitting just like it do it now I dont care, my proto logi fit is:

4 proto shield extenders
3 basic ferroscale plates
1 proto armor repairer

proto smg
proto nade

proro repair tool
proto nanite injector
proto nanohive
proto gauged drop uplink

decent mix of durability and speed to follow my teammates around the map. full rack of proto equipment to babysit my teammembers along with an SMG and nades for self defense.

you already ruined my fast hacking minmatar logi and I will finally quit if you ruin this fit too.

cause he is repping meaning the person who killed his squad mate is already almost dead and smg rips through armor

he probably don't want to skill into a fotm that will most likely suffer another nerf and it cost more(i believe)

So in my mind it isn't about 'sacrifices' per se, but more about the actual functioning of the suit. As it is, Amarr is a reasonable combat suit. Without a sidearm it might as well just spam the links and hide behind everyone else.

NB: I am not suggesting I should be able to switch suits and keep the bonus. I'd suggest that it'd make a lot more sense if, as long as I am/was in an Amarr Logistics I'm benefiting from the bonus. As soon as I'm in a different suit? Gone. My links are just like everyone else's and I might as well be Minmatar.

-snip-
By the same token, imo, the relative popularity of the minmatar logi is because it's bonus is the only one that is totally worth not using a scout suit to do the job.
-snip-

As far as sacrifices are concerned, if IWS is correct and the sidearm is in fact the least valuable slot in the game, I don't think it'd be unreasonable for Amarr's slot layout to be brought in line with the other suits as opposed to its arbitrarily having fewer slots, and that its fitting capabilities be improved; there's no reason why Amarr Logistics should have less fitting than the other logis, who universally max out at 102 PG if I'm remembering correctly. Considering that consumption-wise a sidearm is near enough to identical to an equipment slot without the potential for WP gain, and offering little more than extended survivability (which is why we want it, in the end) I don't think either of those requests is unreasonable.

My ONLY COMPLAINT!!!!!!

Solo/small squads need reconsideration for OB support. I walk alone!

REASONABLE REQUEST......
1 player squad........ 3000 wp
2 player squad........ 3500 wp
3 player squad........ 4000 wp
4 player squad........ 4500 wp
5 player squad........ 5000 wp

This has ALWAYS been the problem with dust. You throw ALL players into the same categories.
Proto squads can EASILY get 5000-10000 wp.
Feel free to nerf everything else!

OB's are my ONLY reason for living! If you take that away...........

The thought is, work on both medium frames simultaneously. It does make a lot of sense, as both are in pretty rough spots right now. If they intent to normalize slot counts across the 2 classes (which also makes some sense), it would be pointless to do one without the other.


As for the Amarr logi, I'm not sure that an equipment slot AND a low (primary tank) slot is a fair trade for the sidearm. 1 equipment slot seems fairly equitable to me. At worst, an equipment slot and a high slot makes more sense than a low. Just like the Amarr assault(well, until bravo), the high/low slot balance makes no sense considering the way the suit is otherwise intended/set up, as a high buffer armor tanking suit.

It's slow and has no inherent reps like the Gallente, and doesn't have the shield regen of the Caldari or Minmatar, so WTF are you supposed to do with it? The only choice is to brick tank since the damage mod nerf. And that's lame.

For Rattati: I know earlier you mentioned a speed buff for minmitar scouts, and i was interested in knowing whether or not this would actually happen.

Thanks!

With no ewar bonuses, MinScout speed advantage needs to be more significant than it is currently.

Sounds good to me, with the exception of the underlined sections. Here's why, in reverse order:
1) Amarr suits should have more low slots than high, so 3/5.

2) Gallente are supposed to be based on Armor regen. 3 might be too high, but you can't take it completely away.

3) You've oversimplified the maths on the anti-killer bee part:

- Requiring all the equip slots to be filled sounds good but is less effective than you think; compact hives are great for slayers and use minimal fitting resources. That said, I've pushed the idea for close to a year now, so I don't disagree with it, just realize that the true impact will be fairly small.

- Dropping the CPU/PG by 10% and increase the fitting bonus by 10% is actually a big time nerf. Not all the CPU/PG of the suit is used up by equipment, so the math is never this easy:

To repeat an example I've used a few times, picture a suit with 300 CPU. Typically 200 would be used for modules/weapon, and 100 probably for equipment (this information is based on the low-equipment Amarr logi and basically comes from my arse; it may not be completely accurate but gets the point across). If you were to drop the suit CPU by 10% and increase the fit bonus by 10%, you lose 30 CPU total but only save 10 CPU from the new bonus.

It becomes complicated in that, since not all the suits have the same amount of equipment slots, you can't easily determine what the best combination of fitting power reduction and fitting bonus increase would be (this is basically why CCP wants to equalize the slot counts and take away the Amarr sidearm, to make this kind of balance proposition easier).

What you need to do is make a large sample of multiple fittings from each race, and determine the ratio of CPU/PG total vs that devoted to equipment. Averaging that ratio you can then say, well, if we are going to decrease the total by 10%, we need to increase the fitting bonus by x, which, using my above example, would be 30% since the ratio is 3:1. Hopefully they would choose to overshoot the bonus.

take a look at the slot layout thread - stickied