Seeing a dot show up on screen doesnGÇÖt make you easier to hit like being slow like a heavy does.
Sure, you can anticipate them, but they can anticipate you too.
See, the way scanning mechanics work right now is this:
If you have line of sight, they shown up.
If you use a scanner, they show up.
As far as I know, passive scanning is useless garbage, it almost never works.
Active scanners detect everyone, even scouts (Except for Gallente scout, unless its a high level scanner), so giving them a sig radius penalty wonGÇÖt do a thing.
Unless armor tankers donGÇÖt show up on the active scanner, but then you make the thing bad.

This fix is supposed to make shields and armor have unique roles.


Please read GÇ£[P2] Roles of shield and armourGÇ¥, where the roles of shield and armor are covered.


Here are the list of things done, I will then expand on each:
-All plates HP increased by 2x
-Plates movement penalties changed to 5/7.5/10
-Armor reps changed to 5/7.5/10
-Armor reps now have a unique mechanic
-Gallente suits are given an inherent 5hp/s regeneration, helping lower level armor tanking


You might see the 2x HP increase and think GÇ£WTFGÇ¥, and I expected that.
But see, armor is supposed to have much higher HP than shields do, but because we need to use half our slots for reps, the HP gained is lost, while still having less reps.


But then you think GÇ£But didnGÇÖt you just increase reps amount?GÇ¥, and thatGÇÖs true, but hear me out on this.
This is the main part of the idea:
If you read the Roles of shield and armor part, then you would know that shields are skirmishers, they dictate their range, get out of battle, regenerate quickly and come back.
Armor is a brawler, taking a good punch while dealing lots of damage and regenerating under fire, but need repair tools to repair properly outside of battle.
Armor is also slow, which means it canGÇÖt dictate range, and canGÇÖt run out of battle as quickly, and its a very easy target.
Also has problems with power projection, taking time to respond to enemies taking your objectives, or teammates need help.
So taking this into consideration, I have got an idea to solidify the armor tanking role.
When you take damage from an enemy (not just any damage, like fall damage), your reps work at 100%.
The longer time has passed from the last time you took damage, the slower your reps work, down to 25% at the lowest level.
It goes like this:
0-5 seconds = 100%
5-10 seconds = 75%
10-15 seconds = 50%
15 seconds and beyond = 25%


The basic and enhanced plates penalty has been increased, because in its current form, the penalty rises very disproportionately to the HP gained.
This fixes the problem, making complex plates worthwhile.


New plates numbers:
Basic plate = 130HP, -5% speed
Enhanced plate = 174HP - 7.5% speed
Complex plate = 230HP - 10% speed


Some numbers.
Gallente Assault:
210 Armor HP + 230HP + 230HP (2x Complex plates) = 670 HP
The other two slots are used for armor repairers, and in addition to the inherent rep speed this turns into 25hp/s of regeneration at the first 5 seconds you take damage.
After 15 seconds this rep drops to 25%, putting it at 6.25, which is painfully slow.

Excellent post. +1

I would add something to P5:

Although you iterated on this when discussing the Flux Grenade, I feel you should go more in depth in the comparison between how easy it is for shield tank suits to quickly escape combat and quickly recharge Shields vs how difficult it is for armor tank suits to escape and slowly recharge shields.


When shield tanks lose their shields, they run for cover, and more often than not begin recharging even before an armor tanker can close the distance them to finish them off. Then the shield tanker almost immediately comes back out ready for round 2. Meanwhile the armor tanker has the exact same amount of armor(no repairers) or very little more than before the shield tanker took cover, and likely hasn't started even recharging shields as he is armor tanked. Then must face the newly reemerged shield tanker with a significant amount less hp.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, when an armor tanker has lost a significant portion of armor, he must (attempt)
to flee either
a) completely, and find a logistics to repair or supply depot to refit in order to recover hp (if using only plates)

or
b)for an extended period of time to allow his much slower acting armor repairer to recover hp.

alternatively, and more frequently the end result, the armor tanker dies while trying to escape to cover because of their extremely slow speed, or he makes it to cover, but the shield tanker closes the distance faster than hp can be recovered, and makes the kill.

In either of these scenarios, the shield tanker wins the battle, and obtains control of the objective.

Also an EDIT (i'm splitting hairs here) line 4 of P6 should be edited to state "1 more unit of PG"

+1. Yeah. A lot of this comes from separating the posts as I did - the issues link together to create bigger problems all over.
I covered how much more difficult it was for armour tankers to get away in penalties. I think I'll emphasise this as per your recommendation and add some more stuff to the explanation of the flux grenade vs locus grenade.

I'll add a bit more on the importance of mobility as well.

Good catch on the PG thing! I'm particularly happy with you spotting that because it means you read the thing through. Thanks!

Whoops, missed unit 10. This has now been corrected.

where is the preface?


i read the entire thread (yes the whole thing). but, what was going through my mind (and i couldnt help think it), is that all those penalties you described are a heavy suit, without any mods, armor, etc .

those penalties make armor tanking really bad in comparison to shield tanking, and yet are markedly unbaised as those are the actually numbers. nonetheless, the heavy suit itself has all those downsides before it even puts on a single plate...lol

I would like to add that for the roles of armor and shields that armor should not be forced to be slow, in a way. I believe shields should excel in active battle by having high shield repairs and the ability to use armor repair modules. But armor should get the ability to have similar, not better, performance in battle. Making shields and armor follow a strict gameplay type is limiting to the player using the build. I for example like speedy builds, obviously I will never be as effective as a Minmatar in speed but I should have the chance to be as capable in battle as a Caldari suit with similar repair rates and speed. In most games I go for speedy builds, most MMOs I play an assasin or archer, and most FPS I play as a SMG rusher speed has been hardwired into my gaming style for years and Dust 514 punishes me because the suit I picked, in Dust 514 at least doesn't follow this, keep in mind I was following EVE when picking my suit because I thought Gallente suits where the second fastest. Of course they should not be entirely equal, they should individually excel and fail in some aspects, in this case a Caldari suit should excel in active shield repping but not armor, while a Gallente excels in active armor repping but not shields while having equal speed and EHP.

Good post. You might want to explicitly state that the move penalties on plates effect strafe speed as well.

Great thread!
Just an addition to P5 and P8, here are the numbers for Speed Reduction (SR) % -to- Armor HP: ratio.

______________________HP____SR____SR -per- 1 HP
Basic Armor Plates_______65_____3%___0.046%
Advanced Armor Plates____85_____5%___0.059%
Complex Armor Plates____115____10%__0.087%

Basic Reactive Plates_____15_____1%___0.067%
Advanced Reactive Plates__25____2%___0.08%
Complex Reactive Plates___45____4%___0.089%

While you've covered the fact that the Speed Reduction scale is not proportionate to the benefits, it's a good visual to see that Complex Armor Plates have almost twice as much Speed Reduction per-HP than the Basic Armor Plates do. The Reactive Plates, across the board, have worse ratio's than any of the Armor Plates underlining the fact that they are less desirable than Plates + Reppers.

So I'm new to these forums but not the game and my question is, What can I do to draw attention to this thread?

where is the preface?


i read the entire thread (yes the whole thing). but, what was going through my mind (and i couldnt help think it), is that all those penalties you described are a heavy suit, without any mods, armor, etc .

those penalties make armor tanking really bad in comparison to shield tanking, and yet are markedly unbaised as those are the actually numbers. nonetheless, the heavy suit itself has all those downsides before it even puts on a single plate...lol

While that's true it must be noted that both types of Tanking have already developed their own identities.

Armour is already considered the brawler type, while shield the skirmishers. You are right no one should be forced into a playstyle but I think the distinction between the two types must be made otherwise there is no point in having two.

Armour fits my playstyle well I like to be right in the middle of things with the bullets flying, tanks driving by, etc. I feel that Armour should better facilitate the brawlers amongst us, while shields the more mobile and hit and run players.

^^the idea is that the particular efficiency of one armor over their other should suppliment a players playstyle rather than dictate

In tanking there are two types of traditional tank - High HP and damage mitigation.

Instead of having both tanking styles revolve around High HP and Fast regen - armor should instead be about damage resistance and constant regen.

Both would end up being very similar in practice but would lend themselves to two completely different playstyles.


Also, drop the speed penalties and have armor damage resistance mods be a High Slot module.

Awesome thread, need to be seen by CCP.

A little idea for armor tanking love: since shields have a low slot module buffing them (shield regulators) why don't give armor a high slot module? Reactive Nano Membrane, high slot module that increase armor resistance to damage.

^^the idea is that the particular efficiency of one armor over their other should suppliment a players playstyle rather than dictate

Yes - it should supplement their playstyle, but they should pick what to spec into accordingly. It shouldn't dictate it - and ferroscale plates, again, would give better adaptability assuming they're not useless, but there does need to be a specific role for armour and a specific role for shields, and that means places where one clearly outperforms the other.

Print it out and hand it to random people in the street, link it in your posts, tell people about it. vOv

Armor plates are for team play

I like how everyone in this game plays solo and then complains about imbalance. I've played logi, I've played logi following behind protoheavy with all plates and damage mods. I've played Logi with a heavy who RDVd his own car to get around places so he wasn't so slow.

Armor plates are for team play, Also the OP mentioned that the repair tool sucks because the logi can't use his gun. There are a number of situations where you want your logi out of LOS healing and keeping up resupply, rez and Uplinks. Also when you rez somone with the proto needle when they are armor tanking, then you get fun results when the enemy has to bring down that fatty again.

Make some friends, I am an extremely unlikeable guy and I have friends to play with. It's not hard, just say "hi" to people. And when they invite you to play with them, then say things like "Good Job" and "Thanks" rather then. "OMG I SCORED MORE KILLS THEN YOU ROFLLOL HAHAHAHAHA FAIL LOSER"

Then maybe we won't get more threads saying, OMG armor fail..

I like how everyone in this game plays solo and then complains about imbalance. I've played logi, I've played logi following behind protoheavy with all plates and damage mods. I've played Logi with a heavy who RDVd his own car to get around places so he wasn't so slow.

Armor plates are for team play, Also the OP mentioned that the repair tool sucks because the logi can't use his gun. There are a number of situations where you want your logi out of LOS healing and keeping up resupply, rez and Uplinks. Also when you rez somone with the proto needle when they are armor tanking, then you get fun results when the enemy has to bring down that fatty again.

Make some friends, I am an extremely unlikeable guy and I have friends to play with. It's not hard, just say "hi" to people. And when they invite you to play with them, then say things like "Good Job" and "Thanks" rather then. "OMG I SCORED MORE KILLS THEN YOU ROFLLOL HAHAHAHAHA FAIL LOSER"

Then maybe we won't get more threads saying, OMG armor fail..

We absolutely need a Gallente racial passive that reduces armor speed penalty by ~15% per level. This is pretty much the only way you can truly balance armor tanking.

[P5] Penalties
Fitting armour plates doesnGÇÖt only slow your movement rates (both sprint and normal), it also slows down your turn rates, and by extension your aiming ability. Also your strafe speed, which makes you much easier to hit.

This is completely unreasonable for an FPS game. Movement speeds are harsh enough, but reducing the playerGÇÖs actual ability to aim in a game where aiming is everything is an unreasonably harsh penalty. This impacts accuracy directly, reducing your ability to hit people at distance or headshot people.

It hurts your CQC ability because people can actually strafe faster than you can turn, meaning it becomes a severe disadvantage in CQC. It prevents you from responding to the threat behind you as quickly as you need to.

The penalty, of course, affects mobility. This is important for two main reasons.
The first is how easy you are to hit, and the second is power projection.

The ability of other players to hit you is important. If youGÇÖre getting hit more, you are being damaged more and you are dying more. If youGÇÖre running across an open stretch and someone starts shooting at you, the longer you spend in the open running the more damage youGÇÖre taking and the more likely you are to die.

Your strafe speeds are also slowed, so when it comes down to a straight 1 on 1 gunfight you can easily be outgunned as it's so much easier to hit you.

Mobility should be a drawback of armour, but in its current form itGÇÖs penalising far too heavily for what it gives. For example, the scaling of the speed penalty between tiers is awful.

The shield vs. armor disparity effects all races and classes. This would do absolutely nothing to balance shield vs armor in anything but Gallente Medium Class

Great post.. except your numbers are wrong:

You should take into account the passive 10% from armor plates and shield extension, as you need both to run complex.
Also take into account Caldari Logistics 25% to shield extenders, and Caldari Assault 25% to passive regen.

Caldari Assault is 31.25 hp/s regen (at level 5, but use max out for balance discussions), you use 25 hp/s in some instances.

Complex Shield Extenders give 72hp not 66hp (there is actually no way to get less than 72hp from a complex extender right? Cause shield extension has to be level 5)

Complex Armor Plates give 126.5hp not 115hp.

Caldari Logistics Complex Shield Extender gives 90hp.

Also, posted from another thread.

While I do agree that armor plates probably need a buff to their hp you also can't just straight buff them, or shield tankers get a pretty beastly advantage too.

We absolutely need a Gallente racial passive that reduces armor speed penalty by ~15% per level. This is pretty much the only way you can truly balance armor tanking.

Also agree with the other sentiments here:
PG in high slots (with no CPU penalty)
Flat % armor plate reduction ~4-6%
Explosives are too effective against armor. I would like to see 85/115 probably, maybe even 90/110, as the damage is so high, any bonus effects the alpha on a locus grenade by a lot.

My thoughts:
Armor plates and shield extenders should follow a 1x,2x,3x pattern, so extenders 22-44-66 and armor plates something like 44-88-132.
Ferroscale plates should match extenders in hp.

The balance between reactive plates need a rework... as it stands reactive plates and armor reps will always compete against each other, and one set (1 Armor Plate + 1 Armor Rep vs 2 Reactive Plates) will always be better than the other. I do seriously believe at this point that armor reps or reactive plates need to move to the high slot, so that they don't compete.

That said, I would also like to see implementation of the racial flavorings where Amarr suits favor plates and buffer but Gallente favor armor regeneration. I really don't understand why CCP have made Minmatar/Caldari Shield, Gallente Armor, and Amarr "both"?

[P8] The new modules
Here we get to the new stuff, the modules which are meant to GÇÿfixGÇÖ armour. They fail in their mission.
These new modules are the Ferroscale Plates, which give less HP than normal plates but without any speed penalty, and the Reactive Plates, which give an even smaller amount of HP but with a small amount of regeneration and a small speed hit.
Now this all sounds good in theory, but thatGÇÖs until you get to the numbers that CCP decided to put on the plates.


Complex Ferroscale plates:
60 HP
Complex Reactive plates:
45 hp, 2hp/s, 4% movement penalty


For comparison, normal plates:
115 HP, 10% movement penalty.


And for more comparison, Complex Shield extenders:
66 HP

-lots of really good information that I am cutting to make the post itself smaller-

I have done all of the numbers without applying skills simply for mathematical simplicity. Using the higher values changes nothing really. It makes the gap slightly wider between shields and armour, but it doesn't matter. I haven't used the skills applied numbers for armour plates either - I have, however, used the skills applied numbers for shield regeneration and armour repairers.

The argument that a straight buff to armour HP is bad because shield tankers will use it is invalid because armour tankers can equally use shield extenders.

If you're going to go down the route of making armour plates only good on armour tanking suits it should be a role bonus rather than a racial bonus, because otherwise newbies get screwed over.
PG modules in high slots would make more sense.
Flat armour plate reduction - Agreed.
I think tweaking the explosive to be in line with the EM is the best solution - it should still be more effective than solid ammunition weapons against armour but it shouldn't be so effective that it wrecks armour with even glancing hits.

Armor plate numbers I somewhat agree but you've effectively nerfed the lower tier so that the progression can look better with those numbers.
I think ferroscale plates should actually beat extenders in HP, but only slightly. This is because you still need to sacrifice for repairers on armour suits.

Definitely agreed with plate/rep comboes competing with reactive plates. If they both had different numbers so they were useful in different situations - reactive plates giving more HP but less rep or vice versa, as suggested in the OP - they would be more useful and balanced.
It doesn't help that currently the plate/rep combo simply blows reactives out of the water.

I agree here wholeheartedly. For starters, Ferroscale Plating.

They offer LESS HP than equivalent shield extenders, have high fitting requirements, and remove the armor speed penalty entirely (which shields don't have to deal with for one). Considering shields come with a very high natural regeneration rate, and the Ferroscale plates DEMAND an armor repairer (for abysmal recharge), this is an important thing to note. We are getting rid of our armor tank's greatest drawback, at the cost of being just a statistically worse version of a shield extender. A Ferroscale plate should offer ~75 armor at the complex level, giving it a slight edge over shields in RAW EHP. However the armor tanker will still have to spend one or two slots dedicated to armor repair modules, which will not only cut down on overall tank but also eliminate a significant amount of buffer.

I have a feeling CCP was attempting to balance these under the assumption people would be using these plates bare with a dedicated logistics running around and repping you in combat. Which is nice in theory but is just not in practice.

-stuff on reactive plates-

Shields still get higher buffer, and double the regeneration, all without the movement penalty. There is no clear area where armor tanks can say "We've got you, there!" so my suggestion alone may not be quite enough. Perhaps reducing the movement penalty from 4% to 3% as well (making 3 plates give a 9% penalty instead of 12%) would help? Although that's only making it better than it currently is, and not giving it a clear role on the battlefield, let alone being comparable to shields.

At the same time, this brings me to my previous point that Gallente should favor active armor and Amarr passive buffer. The Gallente Assault suit should be getting a LOCAL armor repair bonus. The problem is that while this may make Gallente Armor tanks a very viable thing, it would NOT fix the core problems with armor. There certainly are a lot of things and situations to consider, eh?

The shield vs. armor disparity effects all races and classes. This would do absolutely nothing to balance shield vs armor in anything but Gallente Medium Class

Yeah. See, the problem with reactive plates is that in their current situation they're inevitably going to be compared to normal plate/rep fits, and right now they're simply superceded by them. For them to really work, they need to have their own role compared to plate/rep fits - for example, giving a higher repair rate but lower HP.

And again, you're right, heh. The new modules wouldn't fix the balance even if they were better than they are now.

God these flaylocks are like a win button against Gallente I have yet to play a game today where the majority of the team isn't using these... It is literally impossible to kill somebody with a flaylock as a Gallente logistics unless I am super far away, not only can I not strafe fast enough I only have about 2 seconds to dish out enough damage to kill them. If armor isn't fixed by uprising 1.2 I am just leaving this game I cannot handle how bad my character is because I picked the wrong suit... Yep New Eden HTFU or GTFO guess I know which one I fit in, didn't know New Eden was brutal since the time you decide to pick a suit

well, if it isn't flaylocks its SMGs that in close range dessimate armor.. both are better on armor. but its not the flaylocks fault most close range encounters happen after both players get too close after charging each other (normally with ARs), so the secondary that does massive damage to armor is noticeable when shields are down.

the flaylock is a close range weapon that is an explosive with the least blast radius and damage of all explosives in the game. if it didnt work it'd be pointless, it actually needs a slight buff. it takes arm to use it, and the hit dectetion even makes that a 50/50.

well, if it isn't flaylocks its SMGs that in close range dessimate armor.. both are better on armor. but its not the flaylocks fault most close range encounters happen after both players get too close after charging each other (normally with ARs), so the secondary that does massive damage to armor is noticeable when shields are down.

the flaylock is a close range weapon that is an explosive with the least blast radius and damage of all explosives in the game. if it didnt work it'd be pointless, it actually needs a slight buff. it takes arm to use it, and the hit dectetion even makes that a 50/50.


the REAL problem is that speed penalty that makes getting out the way impossible. nonetheless, if there was a secondary that did massive damage to shields like the flaylock does to armor (not the scrambler pistol it operates differently altogether) it could solve this issue.

minmintar weapons are good against galente dropsuits, we need some caldari weapons and amar weapons to punish shield tankers. the baance is there it just hasnt been implimented.

until then, spec all you can into scrabler rifles, scambler pistols, flux nades. (or use a scrabler rifle flaylock/SMG combo. thats great against caldari)

If the enemy is moving at you in straight line aim and pop him with rapid direct for the kill. If they are gunfighting with you than jump and just rain hell down at their feet. Core Godlock is fun! Requires no skill to use it's easy :)

I need to do a real read of this whole thread, but while I'm getting to that I do want to make one statement out of the gate.

Reactive plates should be moved to a High Power Slot this instantly breaks the deadlock between then and the standard plate + rep fittings question providing more diversity in options and also serves to ameliorate some degree of the shield/armor division.

Also as others in this thread have said we need some armor specific racial skills. Gallente and Amarr are armor tanking races (yes this is EVE lore, but it's also maintained in dust stats, just weakly) and should be getting racial bonuses to support that. Giving such bonuses would make armor taking balance more attainable (provide active buffs for one race and passive buffs for the other, then you have build diversity as well).

Cheers,
Cross

And about the flaylock pistol



https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=87797

Flaylock stats:
Basic
Direct: 218 <--- Enough damage to 4 shot me at full HP
Splash: 195
Clip size: 3 <-- 4 as a Minmatar assault
Max ammo: 21
Reload 2.5

Basic (LVL 5 side arm skills)
Direct: 250
Splash: 224
Clip size: 3
Max ammo: 26
Reload: 2.125

Core flaylock pistol (LVL 5 side arm skills)
Direct: 276 <--- Enough to kill a heavy with no shields in 2-3 shots
Splash: 246
Clip size: 3
Max ammo: 26
Reload: 2.125

Flaylock pistols also have a range of 60M, although very difficult to use at 60M if you aim high enough you can shoot anybody at any distance with it.

Also bear in mind flaylocks do 135% more damage against armour, compared to 70% with shields. In practice, this is about a 92% difference in damage.

I have to disagree with this. It sounds good on paper, however, in practice it would further limit fitting options for armor tankers. If you look at the slot layout for armor tank suits, they are extremely limited on the amount of High Slots, while shield tank suits generally have a decent number of lows. This is compounded by the fact that there are currently 10 out of 12 non armor non shield modules that are low slot modules.

This creates a disparity between fitting options of shields vs fitting options of armor. This would be further exacerbated if one began moving armor modules to high slots by limiting armor's ability to tank and gank.

While moving Reactive Plates to High Slots could free up a low slot, I don't feel like this would be the case. IMHO this would simply render the Reactive plates almost completely unused as armor tankers would tend to gravitate toward fitting damage modifiers instead if for no other reason than not being able to stack enough of the Reactive plates to make them viable.

While simply moving Reactive Plates to High Slots wouldn't solve all the problems, I think it would help more than you're giving them credit for. By freeing up a Low Slot, an Armor user could use a CPU/PG module without feeling like they're giving up a dedicated portion of their survival.

By taking say, 1-2 Reactive Plates and 1 Damage Mod as High Slot choices, with 2 Plates, a Repper and a CPU/PG mod as needed, the Armor user would be given a better option than simply stacking their Low Slots and hopeing for the best.

While simply moving Reactive Plates to High Slots wouldn't solve all the problems, I think it would help more than you're giving them credit for. By freeing up a Low Slot, an Armor user could use a CPU/PG module without feeling like they're giving up a dedicated portion of their survival.

By taking say, 1-2 Reactive Plates and 1 Damage Mod as High Slot choices, with 1-2 Plates, a Repper and a CPU/PG mod as needed, the Armor user would be given a better option than simply stacking their Low Slots and hopeing for the best.

Keep armor in the lows, but make armor not suck - just as the OP proposed.

I wouldn't mind having a useful utility mod or two in the highs, either. I chose armor specifically so I could fit damage mods, but that's basically ALL high slots offer the armor tanker. I'll be damned if I'm going to dual tank.

Keep armor in the lows, but make armor not suck - just as the OP proposed.

I wouldn't mind having a useful utility mod or two in the highs, either. I chose armor specifically so I could fit damage mods, but that's basically ALL high slots offer the armor tanker. I'll be damned if I'm going to dual tank.

meow of justice

No justice just Dust.

On reactive plates being a high slot:
It would be very hard to balance effectively. People would move to stacking a ton of reactive plates with an armour plate/rep combo, which would make an incredibly powerful tank, unless reactive plates weren't very good, in which case they simply wouldn't be used.
To move the reactive plate to the high slot would be to admit defeat with the low slots for armour tankers, as people would start filling their highs with their armour tank and leaving the lows for other things like speed mods. It would also make defences more reliant on having a load of different modules just for the tank than tweaking the overall state of things.

I think it would be better to tweak them so that they have situations where they perform differently than plate/rep comboes, like for instance higher HP lower repair rate. That way it doesn't completely step on the toes of plate/rep tanking and both have their purpose.
To be honest though reactive plates are always going to be competing with plate/rep comboes.

You guys sure armor is at a disadvantage?
I saw a DJINN running a Gal Logi, that just won't die, earlier today.

Took a ridiculously concerted effort to kill him... with a full-auto Duvolle AR.
Seems to me that guy had armor down to an art form. Maybe some people are just building armor fits poorly?

You guys sure armor is at a disadvantage?
I saw a DJINN running a Gal Logi, that just won't die, earlier today.

Took a ridiculously concerted effort to kill him... with a full-auto Duvolle AR.
Seems to me that guy had armor down to an art form. Maybe some people are just building armor fits poorly?

You guys sure armor is at a disadvantage?
I saw a DJINN running a Gal Logi, that just won't die, earlier today.

Took a ridiculously concerted effort to kill him... with a full-auto Duvolle AR.
Seems to me that guy had armor down to an art form. Maybe some people are just building armor fits poorly?

Tagged and Forwarding.

You guys sure armor is at a disadvantage?
I saw a DJINN running a Gal Logi, that just won't die, earlier today.

Took a ridiculously concerted effort to kill him... with a full-auto Duvolle AR.
Seems to me that guy had armor down to an art form. Maybe some people are just building armor fits poorly?

Snazzy.
I assume this is some sort of CPM/CCP process?

Basically its an attempt to cover bases that Dust 514's community "might" have missed.

Most of the time the reports catches about everything of notice but I am just making sure threads like these are at least brought forward before the report makes it out.

I have to disagree with this. It sounds good on paper, however, in practice it would further limit fitting options for armor tankers. If you look at the slot layout for armor tank suits, they are extremely limited on the amount of High Slots, while shield tank suits generally have a decent number of lows. This is compounded by the fact that there are currently 10 out of 12 non armor non shield modules that are low slot modules.

This creates a disparity between fitting options of shields vs fitting options of armor. This would be further exacerbated if one began moving armor modules to high slots by limiting armor's ability to tank and gank.

While moving Reactive Plates to High Slots could free up a low slot, I don't feel like this would be the case. IMHO this would simply render the Reactive plates almost completely unused as armor tankers would tend to gravitate toward fitting damage modifiers instead if for no other reason than not being able to stack enough of the Reactive plates to make them viable.

To be honest I don't think that's an actual possibility, no one is required to use the new plates, the old/current armor rep options still provide for these same options via low slots so all moving it to the high power slot does is create options for differing fittings.


I'm only suggesting one specific type of mod be placed there not a migration in general, further your statement assumes that everyone runs damage mods which is untrue. Not everyone runs damage mods nor is doing so required to preform well. I've run squads that placed top of the match with no mods between us and I know Assaulters who've been in the top 20 during closed beta that didn't run a single mod (and still don't on their primary fittings, AV notwithstanding).

All of that aside I have to reiterate that it is an option not a requirement so it doesn't cost anyone anything just allows for a more diverse pallet from which to draw possible fittings configurations.

I doubt that the Reactive Plates would be the sole source of tank when placed in a high slot. Depending on the suit they may not even be the primary source of tank but that doesn't mean they wouldn't be useful. Two of them would nearly equal a proto repper, plus provides more buffer (assuming current stats). Even fitting only a single reactive could give fits that would otherwise lack all native rep some mild form of self rep, I know some Heavies which would include this in their fits.

This also provides a bit more balance between shields and armor by putting a mod on the table which takes the same slot as primary shield tank mods. Would this fix armor vs shield tank balance? Absolutely not, but it could contribute to a fix. As long as Shield tanking takes high slots and armor is purely low slots then all buffs to armor direct mods are going to fall sort of providing balance because shield tankers can still 'cheery pick' whatever aspects they want without giving up any of their primary tank. Choices aren't meaningful when they cost nothing.

I'm sure reactive plates in the high slots wouldn't work for every fit but honestly that's partly the point and they most certainly would be used I know Mercs who would use them and I would use them on some fits.

Cheers,
Cross

I dont think that post was true, or there are some heavy details missing.

While these are good arguments, I still don't feel like moving any armor modules to high slots is the proper route. Look at the Sentinel Suit. It only has 1 High Slot. Having these Reactive plates in high slots would not be beneficial at all. I would much rather be able to run a shield recharger, extender, or damage mod here and still be able to run the Reactive plates. Then again maybe the Sentinel should be reworked entirely because of this.

I'm sure other suits are extremely limited in their high slots, and would benefit more from having all armor as low slot modules. Then again maybe I'm wrong.

I do feel that the shield regulators should definitely be moved to high slots, along with several other utility type modules if my idea for the addition of a Medium slot is unfeasible.

At first this post made me mad due to it' being a "my uncle" story but as I thought about it, yes that guy is doing something we're not. If he has a pro logi then he has a free complex repper not to mention five open low slots. Does that mean the armor < shield argument is invalid? No. There's likely to be other reasons available for this man's superman like tanking skills not included in the story as well as the fact this doesn't solve armor for assaults, mediums, heavies, and sentinels. What I can say is that if being a pro logi makes armor tanking feasible then we have only reinforced the need for racial armor bonuses.

I have not done extensive testing with the Heavy but based on what I have done and on the feedback of Heavies I play with I'm of the opinion that the Sentinel needs a bit of polish the entire question of the reactive plates aside. So while I feel for some Heavy builds it would still be useful (FG in over watch for example), I do see how in most cases it wouldn't have broader utility for the Sentinel suit without a rework.

Presuming your suggestion (seen via link) were adopted then having all shield and all armor mods segregated would make sense, most specifically due to the Upgrade mods no longer being in a zero sum relationship with armor tanking mods (part of the impetus for my suggestion, which is also meant to include having a PG mod in a high slot, again assuming current config).

There are some other suits with limited high slots and placing a reactive would be a limitation on stacking damage mods in such configurations if one were to run the reactive plates however that's assuming builds that are gank fit. And while those builds are viable they are not the only viable method as I know both Assaults and Logis who run full tank fits at present (generally stacked towards shields due to the advantage there). I know almost no scouts who run armor tank due to speed but they wouldn't be looking much at the reactive plates anyway for the very same reason, which leaves the heavy.

There's a whole lot that could/would go into this but I've been trying to keep my comments confined to the mods themselves, which I suppose may have painted an incomplete picture. In either case thank you for conducting a resonable conversation on the issue and I look forward to more in the future.

Cheers,
Cross

Tagged and Forwarding.

Are you telling me that someone lied on the internet?

because when people write in all caps they must be telling the truth.... they took out the time to put it in all caps.

I'm only suggesting one specific type of mod be placed there not a migration in general, further your statement assumes that everyone runs damage mods which is untrue. Not everyone runs damage mods nor is doing so required to preform well. I've run squads that placed top of the match with no mods between us and I know Assaulters who've been in the top 20 during closed beta that didn't run a single mod (and still don't on their primary fittings, AV notwithstanding).

All of that aside I have to reiterate that it is an option not a requirement so it doesn't cost anyone anything just allows for a more diverse pallet from which to draw possible fittings configurations.

I doubt that the Reactive Plates would be the sole source of tank when placed in a high slot. Depending on the suit they may not even be the primary source of tank but that doesn't mean they wouldn't be useful. Two of them would nearly equal a proto repper, plus provides more buffer (assuming current stats). Even fitting only a single reactive could give fits that would otherwise lack all native rep some mild form of self rep, I know some Heavies which would include this in their fits.

This also provides a bit more balance between shields and armor by putting a mod on the table which takes the same slot as primary shield tank mods. Would this fix armor vs shield tank balance? Absolutely not, but it could contribute to a fix. As long as Shield tanking takes high slots and armor is purely low slots then all buffs to armor direct mods are going to fall sort of providing balance because shield tankers can still 'cheery pick' whatever aspects they want without giving up any of their primary tank. Choices aren't meaningful when they cost nothing.

I'm sure reactive plates in the high slots wouldn't work for every fit but honestly that's partly the point and they most certainly would be used I know Mercs who would use them and I would use them on some fits.

Cheers,
Cross

[quote=Cross Atu]


I guess it does help a bit. I'm concerned that the tanks you'd get from dedicating all your slots to it would be too strong, but then you get a very large speed penalty...
It's not a great thing for heavies, but reactive plates were never going to help heavies that much anyway. I think heavies need their own love, more so than just armour tanking tweaks.
It's an interesting idea, even if it's difficult to balance properly. It definitely makes reactive plates have more of a role, and so I'm going to add this to P12.

I guess it does help a bit. I'm concerned that the tanks you'd get from dedicating all your slots to it would be too strong, but then you get a very large speed penalty...
It's not a great thing for heavies, but reactive plates were never going to help heavies that much anyway. I think heavies need their own love, more so than just armour tanking tweaks.
It's an interesting idea, even if it's difficult to balance properly. It definitely makes reactive plates have more of a role, and so I'm going to add this to P12.

I am still bit fuzzy as to how adding Reactives to Highs would help, as armor tanks we have very low High slots so we wouldn't really benefit much from this. Since we are opting out shields for the same/lower HP in armor with a speed penalty and around 6/7.5 armor regen, in reality we would actually end up weaker, lower HP and lower speed, than if we used shields and armor/rep combo.

Also it actually makes it easier for shield tanks to dual tank by giving them the option of slightly removing the shield dependency and opting for reactive plates without affecting their low slot usage, while at the same time putting a higher dependence on armor suits on armor and force focusing even more slots into armor instead of other useful modules and in the end would just lead to armor suits being a lot slower and a lot weaker than they are now and more susceptible to explosive damage.

I think that if you start relying on reactives being in the high slots to balance the tank, there's something going slightly wrong - while shield regulators are found in the lows, they're not a massive thing that completely changes the balance. In addition, if there are movement penalty plates in both slots, you could be looking at huge speed penalties.
It's also had to balance, because if they're useful in the highslots you'd be able to achieve very very strong tanks by using a combination of highslots and lowslots just for your tank. While it reduces your other options, the tank strength would be a little beyond what I would see as reasonable. It would start exceeding heavy tanks as well (though you'd have similar speeds) because heavies have fewer slots.

I agree, they're unlikely to be used as the sole source of tank in a high slot, and therein lies the issue. To balance that out, the effectiveness would need to be such that using reactives or plate/rep combos as the sole source of tank would be ineffective, or setups with both would be overpowered.

I guess it does help a bit. I'm concerned that the tanks you'd get from dedicating all your slots to it would be too strong, but then you get a very large speed penalty...
It's not a great thing for heavies, but reactive plates were never going to help heavies that much anyway. I think heavies need their own love, more so than just armour tanking tweaks.
It's an interesting idea, even if it's difficult to balance properly. It definitely makes reactive plates have more of a role, and so I'm going to add this to P12.

When you're saying it forces armor tanks to be more armor dependent I'm not sure where that's coming from

As I see it the value of the Reactive moved to a High is situational on a fit by fit basis. As such it provides a piece of the flexibility needed but only a piece.

The internal balance of armor mods still needs to be looked at, the average cost of shield and armor fittings needs to be addressed,

And even at that threshold I'd honestly give a serious eye to altering the numbers on both reactives and ferro, but that's a lot of changes at once and pretty sweeping and I'm wary of sweeping changes they have this tendency to hold hidden problems.

I'm getting slightly confused with all the shield numbers coming in on armour tanks. Cross Atu - you're dual tanking, yeah?

I think shields should regen slower by default- there's no reason for shield users to fit a shield recharger.

But let me also point out a few disadvantages for shield users:
Once their armor is gone, it's gone (unless they have a logi)
Since armor plates give more HP than shield extenders, armor users can stack damage mods in their high slots
Logibro + armor > logibro + shields

I think shields should regen slower by default- there's no reason for shield users to fit a shield recharger.

But let me also point out a few disadvantages for shield users:
Once their armor is gone, it's gone (unless they have a logi)
Since armor plates give more HP than shield extenders, armor users can stack damage mods in their high slots
Logibro + armor > logibro + shields

I'll do a more through review on your numbers, but without even bringing specific numbers into it there is a basic problem with the reactive plates which needs to be answered. Namely what do they do? I'll elaborate; right now the reactive provides a mixture of buffer and reps with a speed debuff. This is the same thing that current plates + reps provide which puts them in direct competition since they use the same slots and are buffed by the same skills et al.

To answer your question what do they do They offer a trade off of HP/Reps for more movement speed. They (are supposed to) offer armor tankers a compromise between less overall HP and less regen, but more movement speed than they would with the standard plate + reps. To the extent that 1 Reactives = more movement and less but close to the same HP+Reps than 1 Standard Plate + 1 Rep. So although they wouldn't have as much HP or reps, they could move out of harms way faster, while still having some HP and some Reps. I don't think they would necessarily be in competition because the amount of movement speed the Reactive Plates should allow would be significant enough to warrant their use over simple plates+reps for those armor tankers who do not want to be slowed down so much. I do think the DEVs will have to adjust the numbers on all the reps and plates to make the Reactives regardless of what slot they are assigned to.

Hypothetical Numbers For Current and New Armor Plates and Repairers

These are theoretical base stats for modules only, no skill buffs are taken into consideration. Any suggestions to CPU/PG usage are welcome.

Plates
Basic: ..............66 HP............ Penalty 3% Speed
Enhanced:.......99 HP.............Penalty 4.5% Speed
Complex:.........165 HP...........Penalty 7.5% Speed

Repairers
Basic:..............Regen 3 HP/s
Enhanced........Regen 6 HP/s
Complex..........Regen 9 HP/s

Ferroscale
Basic:..............33HP
Enhanced:......49HP
Complex:........82HP

Reactive
Basic:.............49HP........Penalty 1.5% Speed.......Regen 1.5 HP/s
Enhanced:......73HP.......Penalty 2.25% Speed......Regen 3 HP/s
Complex:........124HP.....Penalty 3.75% Speed.......Regen 4.5 HP/s

These numbers are probably OP or at least not the best option, but I gave it a shot. Notice how things progress evenly up the Tiers and that the numbers on the new plates are based off of the normal plates and repairers. What do you guys think.

Cheers

[P8] The new modules
The HP for the Reactive plates should be slightly higher than shields, with 3-4hp/s regen, putting it at slightly less regeneration than shields but slightly more HP.
The idea with Reactive plates is that they should either give more HP and less repair rate than a normal plate/rep fit, or they should give less HP and more repair rate than a normal plate/rep fit, so that there's a reason to use either depending on how you want to use your fitting.

My math fu is not as strong as my theory crafting but here's what I see (anyone else please jump in if I drop a sign somewhere or make some other flub). I'll applying approximate fittings costs via EDITS, the method used is simply an extrapolation of the current fittings costs, which means that if those values need revised these values will as well.


Basic Plates
50 more HP with 2.5% less speed reduction on the Complex plates.
I like the direction this is going but if basic plates get both more HP and less 'extra weight' we may have to see a fittings increase to keep them in line. I'll have to chew through a bunch of numbers to come up with a context on that.
Complex Plate
CPU = ~86
PG = ~17
Both values are rounded down so may be higher if CCP uses a non-standard method of rounding with regard to fittings requirements. Also these values have not been corrected for the lower speed reduction and as such might be moved higher if scaled directly from our current in game values.

Repairers
The Amarr Logi in me drools over this and jumps up and down with glee
The game balance fiend in me says that roughly doubling the on board reps game wide risks being over powered and also runs afoul of two other problems.
1) It reduces diversity between shields and armor in tank styles (shields to rep armor does buffer)
2) It diminishes the value of repair tools and repair nanohives thus by extension nerfing the support logi role. No more targets for hives/tools to rep and fewer non-OHK/instant bleed deaths for needles to revive. And possibly fewer deaths at all also nefing the tactical/WP value of uplinks.

Some buff to reppers seems fine, and a stronger armor tank line will likely result in a bit of a down turn for support players regardless but both need to be kept in mind regarding ratios.

Complex Repper
CPU = 81
PG = 20
New values derived from current Complex Repper, use of other reppers as baseline results in higher total fittings requirements.

Ferroscale
Specific values aren't my strongest suit but I think the trend of progression here makes solid sense, granting armor tank more buffer than shield. However there needs to be a trade off and with no speed reduction their going to need higher CPU/PG costs than the current values from the video to prevent them overreaching Extenders and causing armor to become the new Shields.
Complex Ferroscale
CPU = 50
PG = 20

Reactive
Without fittings costs applied I can't say this unequivocally but taking the numbers as listed fittings notwithstanding I think they're likely over the top. I'd love to run them but as listed the Complex would give 9 more HP than the current Complex plates, and 0.5 HP/s more reps than the current Complex Repper, with a 6.25% lessor speed cost and it's all stacked into a single mod.... the ISK and CPU/PG costs required to keep that in line with the rest of tanking makes my wallet and dropsuit resources both cry.
Complex Reactive Plate
CPU = 114
PG = 33
New values do not account for value of speed reduction and as such would likely be higher with speed cost factored in.

Comparing them to your new numbers listed above for Reps and Plates the Reactive still outstrip the rest. A complex plate + complex rep fall short of tank provided by running two Reactive. With the providing 83 more HP and all other stats being equal. Again the ISK and CPU/PG costs required to counterbalance such a clear advantage seem likely to be painful.

I truly don't mean to harp but having Reactive plates that are potent in this way also runs into the same trouble the current reactive plates do. They are in direct competition for slots and placement with the standard plates and repper thus meaning that in most cases their primary value will be to those who are hybrid or shield tanking because they can devote fewer low slots to gain more overall armor tank effect. Free low slots are the current major limitation on most shield suits when looking at adding some more armor tank while PG is just as often/more often a limit for armor tankers who are trying to get more armor tank. I'm still left wondering how the Reactive can co-exist with the current Plate + Rep combo without one or the other becoming effectively obsolete. We need something that makes their interaction not zero sum or I don't see a way around it.

0.02 ISK
Cross

Numbers updated with fitting costs:

Plates
Basic: ..............66 HP............ Penalty 3% Speed.............fitting 12 CPU 4 PG
Enhanced:.......99 HP.............Penalty 4.5% Speed..........fitting 24 CPU 8 PG
Complex:.........165 HP...........Penalty 7.5% Speed..........fitting 36 CPU 16 PG

Repairers
Basic:..........Regen 3 HP/s......fitting 20 CPU 3 PG
Enhanced....Regen 6 HP/sGǪ..fitting 40 CPU 6 PG
Complex......Regen 9 HP/sGǪ..fitting 60 CPU 12 PG

Ferroscale
Basic:..............33HP.............fitting 18 CPU 6 PG
Enhanced:......49HP.............fitting 36 CPU 10 PG
Complex:........82HP.............fitting 54 CPU 14 PG

Reactive
Basic:.............49HP........Penalty 1.5% Speed.........Regen 1.5 HP/s......fitting 22 CPU 9 PG
Enhanced:......73HP.......Penalty 2.25% Speed......Regen 3 HP/s..........fitting 42 CPU 16 PG
Complex:.......124HP.....Penalty 3.75% Speed.......Regen 4.5 HP/s.......fitting 62 CPU 23 PG

Again probably not viable, just tinkering! Not good at spread sheeting

Holy crap, those CPU/PG values are way to high! it would be impossible to fit more than 2 reactive plates on any suit and fitting 5 complex armor plates would leave you with no CPU for shields or even an ADV weapon, and I am calculating this using a Logistics suit!

I think this spreadsheet has some good numbers on the stats of things.

Spreadsheet

I think the best way to make it so reactives do not outstrip the armor/rep combo is to buff armor and repairers but give them higher CPU/PG costs, so in combination they would be more effective but also more expensive. This would also make specializing in pure armor and pure repair worthwhile.

I do agree the Gallente and Amarr should get a passive armor repair, I think Arkena accidentally left out the Amarr. Also the Amarr should get a Higher bonus than the Gallente since the Amarr have a very low shield recharge rate and a very long wait time. I think if a passive armor is added to these races it should be +3 Gallente and +5 Amarr, also removing the passive armor repair from the Logi Caldari and Logi Minmatar and giving them the +25% shield repair should be added. Also the Minmatar suits don't really work as I think they should, which is LOW HP, High speed, High regen. At the moment they get the 2nd highest HP of the medium suits, the Highest speed of all the suits, and the 2nd highest regen (but not by much), so balancing the Min suits would actually be outside the scope the armor repair dilemma. I think the Minmatar suits and the Gallente suits should have their speed buffed, their regen buffed and delay dropped slightly, and their HP dropped slightly.

Sounds reasonable on a level by level basis but wouldn't that result in a proto reactive being roughly analogous to use of a plate + rep combo from one step down, or a half proto half adv combo fit (depending on specific numbers?


With regards to the racial armor buffs what about giving the Gal suits repair bonuses and giving the Amarr suits either a 'weight reduction' buff, a HP per plate buff or a combined buff which granted very mild bump to both?
This would give both races a solid foundation for armor tanking but some diversity of emphasis as well.

As to on board reps 3 and 5 sound like reasonable numbers (presuming a rework of the plates/other mods to promote higher overall buffer this wouldn't be likely to have a notably averse effect on support roles either). There would need to be a pass on the overall suit stats to keep balance within the respective lines with the added stats (just because armor tanking needs a buff doesn't mean the suits themselves are out of line per se, and we don't want to break them).
I agree the Mini suits are a great place for specialty features but what specifically would make a good counter balance for their current innate reps if those are getting removed?
Also having the logi skills be tank specific by race sounds great but the armor tanking versions are still going to need some love because their role buff which costs them millions of SP really can't be less then or equal to something the assault line gets standard.

Anyway not trying to drag this thread too far off topic just want to make sure some of the other aspects are being kept in mind, as soon as we start talking about changing more than the mods themselves we have to start also considering the broader implications of those changes and their context be that dropsuit, skill, or other.

0.02 ISK
Cross

I think shields should regen slower by default- there's no reason for shield users to fit a shield recharger.

But let me also point out a few disadvantages for shield users:
Once their armor is gone, it's gone (unless they have a logi)
Since armor plates give more HP than shield extenders, armor users can stack damage mods in their high slots
Logibro + armor > logibro + shields

While Im in favour of your arguments.

My concern is the dual tanking would confer an advantage that would out weigh the need for other modules, specifically damage mods. Especially since thier are shield regen bonuses on Assault suits.

Could I ask that you have a look at duel tanking in relation to your suggestions and see if dual tanking would create a situation were that strategy become overly optimal.

While Im in favour of your arguments.

My concern is the dual tanking would confer an advantage that would out weigh the need for other modules, specifically damage mods. Especially since thier are shield regen bonuses on Assault suits.

Could I ask that you have a look at duel tanking in relation to your suggestions and see if dual tanking would create a situation were that strategy become overly optimal.

This is a very valid point. If both tanks are viable, why not use both?
I hate this argument because it implies that one shouldn't be viable on its own, but it's a valid point.

I think that, ideally, the fitting resources should be balanced such that it's difficult to use both tanks and easier to use one type of tank and using utility modules. Essentially, using PG as a resource primarily for tank types so that it becomes prohibitively PG intensive to dual tank and instead it encourages balanced use of tank modules and utility modules. For this to work, though, tank modules, weapons and equipment would probably have to be the only major consumers of PG.

I think I might change the fittings section to explain this.

The best solution, in my opinion, would be to make it so that the PG you have available is only good enough for one tank type in addition to your weapon and equipment. If tank modules consumed large amounts of PG and utility modules consumed primarily CPU (instead of also using lots of PG like damage mods/kinetic catalyzers) then that would encourage using just a single tank type instead of using both to gain a large durability advantage, and using utility modules in addition to their tank.

What do you think? I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.

thats the thing. shield tankers depend on NO ONE. but armor tankers to be effective need logibros.... thats alittle unbalanced.

but i think the whole mechanic of logis needs a fix, within a 20m radius of enemies the logi should get cyclic points for holding a rep tool on teammates (ie.e every 3seconds 5points, etc) whether shots are fired or not.

outside 20m logis should have the current system where only when damage taken does the logi get triage oints.


this way they dnt become useless when armor = balanced with shield. but at the same time armor + logi = shield tanker.

because right now shield > armor, unless there is a logi. why is one shield tank worth 2 people?

Well, that escalated quickly.

We're getting to the point where we're looking at huge changes to armour right now - having god plates which cost a lot in fittings is drastically different from what we have now, and frankly that isn't balanced either because slots are just as much a resource as PG or CPU.
That's not great because ideally we want to have something that CCP would genuinely consider doing.

A lot of the suggested buff to reactive plates I'm seeing here are also drastic and even if they were moved to high slots they'd obsolete plate/rep comboes, and hell, you'd start seeing armour tanking shield suits if you did that stuff in the high slots.

Extreme fittings requirements are a huge pain to deal with as well, even more so than having fewer slots in my opinion, and it'd make the top tiered items unusable simply because they're too difficult to fit.

When looking at the ferroscale and reactive plates please also remember that those might not be the final numbers from CCP. Much of this is about other stuff than the new modules, and focusing too much on that might get a possible dev response to also focus on the fact that they aren't the final numbers.

That said, I'm mucking around updating P8+P12.

Here's this week's update on issues and suggestions that the dev team discussed.

[FEEDBACK] Ferroscale and Reactive plates stats https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=86664&find=unread
Update: We will improve on getting info regarding changes and new features out to players sooner and also monitor community feedback on the new items after they get the chance to try it in game.

I am 90% sure this means CCP is sticking with the video stats for Uprising 1.2. Only way this won't be a major failure is if the 10% holds true or they add bonuses to Gallente and Amarr to their usage.

Kinda why I quit posting. For all the lip service CCP pays to listening to the community, when it comes to anything more specific than "X is OP Nerf immediately!" they completely ignore any well thought out recommendations made.

No they claim to read and pay attention to it then go and pull a complete 180, implementing something that makes no logical sense whatsoever.

IE: Enforcer Tanks

While Im in favour of your arguments.

My concern is the dual tanking would confer an advantage that would out weigh the need for other modules, specifically damage mods. Especially since thier are shield regen bonuses on Assault suits.

Could I ask that you have a look at duel tanking in relation to your suggestions and see if dual tanking would create a situation were that strategy become overly optimal.

A lot of the suggested buff to reactive plates I'm seeing here are also drastic and even if they were moved to high slots they'd obsolete plate/rep comboes, and hell, you'd start seeing armour tanking shield suits if you did that stuff in the high slots.

Well my idea of a complex reactive would be to have the same or slightly higher hp than a Complex shield extender and a repair of 3, so in reality they would be like having a basic armor module with a ADV repairer, but I also think repairers should be buffed to 2/4/6 so in my "fantasy world" they would be like having a basic armor module + a slightly better basic repair module.

Repair bonuses aren't as effective as solid + bonuses, since repair is very low unless stacked. I don't think Gallente should get a HP buff per plate because then that would put them at very high HP even with low to no movement penalty, what they need ,in my opinion, is a movement speed buff by around 6% (With a 6% speed buff to the Minmatar suit also). The only suit that would deserve this buff is a Amarr suit.

I never said to remove their repair actually, I believe they should keep it at 1HP/s to slightly balance out the overall repairs, not completely but slightly, meaning no HP/s for Caldari suits sorry.

Well I am picking from my idea of racial bonuses so I am just going to list them all here so you can see what I have in mind for balancing suits racially.

Suit bonuses
Assault: 1% light damage increase per level
Logistics: 5% CPU/PG reduction on equipment per level
Scouts: 5% scan profile reduction per level
Heavies: 3% damage reduction per level

Caldari: Nada
Racial bonus: 5% shield regen per level
Racial bonus: 3% scan profile reduction


Gallente: 3% speed increase, 3 HP/s
Racial bonus: 1 HP/s repair per level
Racial bonus: 5% movement penalty reduction per level


Amarr: 5 HP/s, buff to overall EHP per suit
Racial bonus: 1HP/s repair per level
Racial bonus: 2% shield module efficacy increase per level 2% armor module efficacy per level

Minmatar: small reduction in EHP
Racial bonus: 5% shield regen per level
Racial bonus: 3% recharge delay reduction per level

The idea behing this is an obvious separation between role and race, each role is affected equally but each race gets a bonus pertaining to their defensive specialization, no bonuses in racial weapon to encourage changing weapons and not feeling penalized. Also no offensive bonuses to encourage offensive focused players to go assault, although 1% per level might seem low but people are willing to spend an extra 40K ISK for a 5% damage increase (Gek -> Duvolle is only 5% more damage) Also a 3% speed increase for the Gallente might seem like a lot but after stacking plates they would still be slow, and even with a movement penalty reduction on already small numbers the difference will slightly be felt by the armor user, but still remain relatively slower than a shield tank.

Also I decided a 6% speed buff would be to much and would require a speed buff for minmatar so 3% is fine.

______________________HP____SR____SR -per- 1 HP
Basic Armor Plates_______65_____3%___0.046%
Advanced Armor Plates____85_____5%___0.059%
Complex Armor Plates____115____10%__0.087%

Basic Reactive Plates_____15_____1%___0.067%
Advanced Reactive Plates__25____2%___0.08%
Complex Reactive Plates___45____4%___0.089%

What fittings values are you looking at applying for the complex reactive in combination with the stats you've listed?

I don't think a base speed buff to the Gal suits is a good idea because that starts to diminish game diversity as an unarmor tanked Gal suit, or even one running Ferro plates would then be baseline faster, and that still doesn't address the idea of a more 'flavorful' racial skill. What would you think of a skill that reduced the speed penalty from plates? True this would make Ferro plates much less useful for the Gal suits but it would allow them to get more buffer/reps without being so slow they aren't viable while maintaining unique fittings possibilities between the races.

Regarding the Min Assault on board repair, again it seems too homogenizing to increase the similarity of suit stats this way, but perhaps others don't agree so that aside there's still the issue of suit balance. Are the Gal and Amarr suits weaker than the Cal and Min suits right now? Unless they are adding extra stats to them pushes them out of line with the other assault suits.

Logistics: 5% CPU/PG reduction on equipment per level Speaking as a Logi I honestly don't see the 5% CPU/PG reduction on equipment as very useful. It's not filling my equipment slots that I've ever really had trouble with (unless I'm running more than one type of uplink at a time) and the fittings cost for equipment is rarely high enough to enable me to squeeze on a better [insert item from any other slot] by downgrading my equipment to save on fittings.
I have not sat down with the numbers to see what total savings could be gained with this so perhaps I'd be surprised by actual figures in some cases but my experience tells me it's not highly useful as a buff, certainly not equivalent to the vital ability to self rep. For this change to not be an outright nerf the 25% fittings cost reduction would have to save enough to fit a Complex Rep out of the saving alone with more left over. Even then it's still costing a slot among the already constrained lows. At present I have no trouble fitting all my equipment slots for PC battles (much less pubs or FW) to whatever configuration squad/team command requests, but I most certainly do have trouble maintaining sufficient buffer HP to allow me to stay where I'm required to employ all that gear for best effect, which is why I hybrid tank. This change would make that durability aspect even lower, and my effective ability to support along with it.

The rest
I like the clear flavor/role support the method provides so general thumbs up here.
These changes would require a rework for the Laser and Scram rifles since they're currently geared to have optimal performance with their race which would now be impossible. Also no Minmatar hacking bonus that's one of my favorite aspects of the line as it provides great utility that isn't essentially combat focused, but I suppose if it balanced the rest of things I'd be content to let it go (although personally I'd rather have that than a fittings reduction on Equipment).

Cheers,
Cross

On reactive plates I still think they should have Low HP- half the repair of a repairer of the same tier- low speed penalty- and medium CPU/PG costs compared to armor modules. The bonuses I suggested do not directly affect the usefulness of most modules, except the speed penalty reduction. And because I believe reactives should have low speed penalty a 25% reduction would barely be felt.

Yes the Gallente and Amarr are actually weaker than the Caldari and Minmatar, in my opinion and based on suit comparisons, unless the Gallente and Amarr take a huge hit in speed to "kinda" come close to the HP of both these suits.

I am a Gallente logistic, and once I get my lvl 5 CPU/PG skills and repair tool to level 5 I can equip a core focused repair tool without having to remove any modules or equipment. I tried this with other Logistic suits and they can't do this. Repair for Logistic suits I removed it as a racial because I believe Shield Logistic suits should not repair armor better than Armor suits, the best possible way I see to give them back this bonus is to give all suits a base repair tiered repair,and then reapply the logistic buff at a rate of 2HP/s instead of 5. Thus:

Caldari Assault: 0 HP/s
Caldari Logistic: 2 HP/s

Gallente Assault: 3 HP/s
Gallente Logistic: 5 HP/s

Minmatar Assault: 1 HP/s
Minmatar Logistic: 3 HP/s

Amarr Assault: 5 HP/s
Amarr Logistic: 7 HP/s

On the point of the hacking bonus, I honestly missed this one when going through the list on the top of my head. Although hacking speeds can be buffed suit side, I don't remember, but I recall the Logistics VK.0 (Chromosome) having a hacking speed bonus.

What are you doing on page three? Did CCP fix the issue?

another thread by a person who doesn't understand how logistics gives the armour class an advantage. this is my surprised face.

kinda sucks being an amarr armor assault tank were already the slowest every day im regretting that i didn't choose gallente back in close beta

CCP did a smart thing and with the new armor plates that are dropping july 2nd, the amarr n gallente suites will b much more competitive options

Have you seen the stats?
They're useless.

And also, they don't fix the core issues.

Don't forget about the Shield Energizer.. which will probably be another low module to help shield tankers even further. Smh

Don't forget about the Shield Energizer.. which will probably be another low module to help shield tankers even further. Smh

Shield Energizer? What is this I see?

They're adding new stuff for shields.
I doubt it'll actually be effective given the stated purpose, but if it is good then that'll throw the balance even further out of whack.

What's their stated purpose, I can't see any mention of that in the blog, do you have a link?

OP where do you get your numbers on the new mods?

They are taken directly from the Uprising 1.2 trailer that CCP leaked.

link?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_LlH2c5dyA
1:10 in.

Hol crap! Reactive Plates are useless!

2 Complex Reactive Plates =

99 armor
4hp/sec rep
8% movement penalty
72 CPU / 32 PG

1 Enhanced Armor Plate + 1 Complex Armor Repairer =

95 armor
6.25hp/sec rep
5% movement penalty
65 CPU / 17 PG

WTF!!! They are total crap!!!My goodness I hope the numbers in the video change! I'm no math genius but reactive plates are trash with these numbers!