^^the idea is that the particular efficiency of one armor over their other should suppliment a players playstyle rather than dictate

Yes - it should supplement their playstyle, but they should pick what to spec into accordingly. It shouldn't dictate it - and ferroscale plates, again, would give better adaptability assuming they're not useless, but there does need to be a specific role for armour and a specific role for shields, and that means places where one clearly outperforms the other.

The shield vs. armor disparity effects all races and classes. This would do absolutely nothing to balance shield vs armor in anything but Gallente Medium Class

Yeah. See, the problem with reactive plates is that in their current situation they're inevitably going to be compared to normal plate/rep fits, and right now they're simply superceded by them. For them to really work, they need to have their own role compared to plate/rep fits - for example, giving a higher repair rate but lower HP.

And again, you're right, heh. The new modules wouldn't fix the balance even if they were better than they are now.

well, if it isn't flaylocks its SMGs that in close range dessimate armor.. both are better on armor. but its not the flaylocks fault most close range encounters happen after both players get too close after charging each other (normally with ARs), so the secondary that does massive damage to armor is noticeable when shields are down.

the flaylock is a close range weapon that is an explosive with the least blast radius and damage of all explosives in the game. if it didnt work it'd be pointless, it actually needs a slight buff. it takes arm to use it, and the hit dectetion even makes that a 50/50.


the REAL problem is that speed penalty that makes getting out the way impossible. nonetheless, if there was a secondary that did massive damage to shields like the flaylock does to armor (not the scrambler pistol it operates differently altogether) it could solve this issue.

minmintar weapons are good against galente dropsuits, we need some caldari weapons and amar weapons to punish shield tankers. the baance is there it just hasnt been implimented.

until then, spec all you can into scrabler rifles, scambler pistols, flux nades. (or use a scrabler rifle flaylock/SMG combo. thats great against caldari)

If the enemy is moving at you in straight line aim and pop him with rapid direct for the kill. If they are gunfighting with you than jump and just rain hell down at their feet. Core Godlock is fun! Requires no skill to use it's easy :)

Also bear in mind flaylocks do 135% more damage against armour, compared to 70% with shields. In practice, this is about a 92% difference in damage.

While simply moving Reactive Plates to High Slots wouldn't solve all the problems, I think it would help more than you're giving them credit for. By freeing up a Low Slot, an Armor user could use a CPU/PG module without feeling like they're giving up a dedicated portion of their survival.

By taking say, 1-2 Reactive Plates and 1 Damage Mod as High Slot choices, with 2 Plates, a Repper and a CPU/PG mod as needed, the Armor user would be given a better option than simply stacking their Low Slots and hopeing for the best.

Keep armor in the lows, but make armor not suck - just as the OP proposed.

I wouldn't mind having a useful utility mod or two in the highs, either. I chose armor specifically so I could fit damage mods, but that's basically ALL high slots offer the armor tanker. I'll be damned if I'm going to dual tank.

meow of justice

On reactive plates being a high slot:
It would be very hard to balance effectively. People would move to stacking a ton of reactive plates with an armour plate/rep combo, which would make an incredibly powerful tank, unless reactive plates weren't very good, in which case they simply wouldn't be used.
To move the reactive plate to the high slot would be to admit defeat with the low slots for armour tankers, as people would start filling their highs with their armour tank and leaving the lows for other things like speed mods. It would also make defences more reliant on having a load of different modules just for the tank than tweaking the overall state of things.

I think it would be better to tweak them so that they have situations where they perform differently than plate/rep comboes, like for instance higher HP lower repair rate. That way it doesn't completely step on the toes of plate/rep tanking and both have their purpose.
To be honest though reactive plates are always going to be competing with plate/rep comboes.

You guys sure armor is at a disadvantage?
I saw a DJINN running a Gal Logi, that just won't die, earlier today.

Took a ridiculously concerted effort to kill him... with a full-auto Duvolle AR.
Seems to me that guy had armor down to an art form. Maybe some people are just building armor fits poorly?

[quote=Cross Atu]


I guess it does help a bit. I'm concerned that the tanks you'd get from dedicating all your slots to it would be too strong, but then you get a very large speed penalty...
It's not a great thing for heavies, but reactive plates were never going to help heavies that much anyway. I think heavies need their own love, more so than just armour tanking tweaks.
It's an interesting idea, even if it's difficult to balance properly. It definitely makes reactive plates have more of a role, and so I'm going to add this to P12.

I think shields should regen slower by default- there's no reason for shield users to fit a shield recharger.

But let me also point out a few disadvantages for shield users:
Once their armor is gone, it's gone (unless they have a logi)
Since armor plates give more HP than shield extenders, armor users can stack damage mods in their high slots
Logibro + armor > logibro + shields

My math fu is not as strong as my theory crafting but here's what I see (anyone else please jump in if I drop a sign somewhere or make some other flub). I'll applying approximate fittings costs via EDITS, the method used is simply an extrapolation of the current fittings costs, which means that if those values need revised these values will as well.


Basic Plates
50 more HP with 2.5% less speed reduction on the Complex plates.
I like the direction this is going but if basic plates get both more HP and less 'extra weight' we may have to see a fittings increase to keep them in line. I'll have to chew through a bunch of numbers to come up with a context on that.
Complex Plate
CPU = ~86
PG = ~17
Both values are rounded down so may be higher if CCP uses a non-standard method of rounding with regard to fittings requirements. Also these values have not been corrected for the lower speed reduction and as such might be moved higher if scaled directly from our current in game values.

Repairers
The Amarr Logi in me drools over this and jumps up and down with glee
The game balance fiend in me says that roughly doubling the on board reps game wide risks being over powered and also runs afoul of two other problems.
1) It reduces diversity between shields and armor in tank styles (shields to rep armor does buffer)
2) It diminishes the value of repair tools and repair nanohives thus by extension nerfing the support logi role. No more targets for hives/tools to rep and fewer non-OHK/instant bleed deaths for needles to revive. And possibly fewer deaths at all also nefing the tactical/WP value of uplinks.

Some buff to reppers seems fine, and a stronger armor tank line will likely result in a bit of a down turn for support players regardless but both need to be kept in mind regarding ratios.

Complex Repper
CPU = 81
PG = 20
New values derived from current Complex Repper, use of other reppers as baseline results in higher total fittings requirements.

Ferroscale
Specific values aren't my strongest suit but I think the trend of progression here makes solid sense, granting armor tank more buffer than shield. However there needs to be a trade off and with no speed reduction their going to need higher CPU/PG costs than the current values from the video to prevent them overreaching Extenders and causing armor to become the new Shields.
Complex Ferroscale
CPU = 50
PG = 20

Reactive
Without fittings costs applied I can't say this unequivocally but taking the numbers as listed fittings notwithstanding I think they're likely over the top. I'd love to run them but as listed the Complex would give 9 more HP than the current Complex plates, and 0.5 HP/s more reps than the current Complex Repper, with a 6.25% lessor speed cost and it's all stacked into a single mod.... the ISK and CPU/PG costs required to keep that in line with the rest of tanking makes my wallet and dropsuit resources both cry.
Complex Reactive Plate
CPU = 114
PG = 33
New values do not account for value of speed reduction and as such would likely be higher with speed cost factored in.

Comparing them to your new numbers listed above for Reps and Plates the Reactive still outstrip the rest. A complex plate + complex rep fall short of tank provided by running two Reactive. With the providing 83 more HP and all other stats being equal. Again the ISK and CPU/PG costs required to counterbalance such a clear advantage seem likely to be painful.

I truly don't mean to harp but having Reactive plates that are potent in this way also runs into the same trouble the current reactive plates do. They are in direct competition for slots and placement with the standard plates and repper thus meaning that in most cases their primary value will be to those who are hybrid or shield tanking because they can devote fewer low slots to gain more overall armor tank effect. Free low slots are the current major limitation on most shield suits when looking at adding some more armor tank while PG is just as often/more often a limit for armor tankers who are trying to get more armor tank. I'm still left wondering how the Reactive can co-exist with the current Plate + Rep combo without one or the other becoming effectively obsolete. We need something that makes their interaction not zero sum or I don't see a way around it.

0.02 ISK
Cross

Numbers updated with fitting costs:

Plates
Basic: ..............66 HP............ Penalty 3% Speed.............fitting 12 CPU 4 PG
Enhanced:.......99 HP.............Penalty 4.5% Speed..........fitting 24 CPU 8 PG
Complex:.........165 HP...........Penalty 7.5% Speed..........fitting 36 CPU 16 PG

Repairers
Basic:..........Regen 3 HP/s......fitting 20 CPU 3 PG
Enhanced....Regen 6 HP/sGǪ..fitting 40 CPU 6 PG
Complex......Regen 9 HP/sGǪ..fitting 60 CPU 12 PG

Ferroscale
Basic:..............33HP.............fitting 18 CPU 6 PG
Enhanced:......49HP.............fitting 36 CPU 10 PG
Complex:........82HP.............fitting 54 CPU 14 PG

Reactive
Basic:.............49HP........Penalty 1.5% Speed.........Regen 1.5 HP/s......fitting 22 CPU 9 PG
Enhanced:......73HP.......Penalty 2.25% Speed......Regen 3 HP/s..........fitting 42 CPU 16 PG
Complex:.......124HP.....Penalty 3.75% Speed.......Regen 4.5 HP/s.......fitting 62 CPU 23 PG

Again probably not viable, just tinkering! Not good at spread sheeting

Sounds reasonable on a level by level basis but wouldn't that result in a proto reactive being roughly analogous to use of a plate + rep combo from one step down, or a half proto half adv combo fit (depending on specific numbers?


With regards to the racial armor buffs what about giving the Gal suits repair bonuses and giving the Amarr suits either a 'weight reduction' buff, a HP per plate buff or a combined buff which granted very mild bump to both?
This would give both races a solid foundation for armor tanking but some diversity of emphasis as well.

As to on board reps 3 and 5 sound like reasonable numbers (presuming a rework of the plates/other mods to promote higher overall buffer this wouldn't be likely to have a notably averse effect on support roles either). There would need to be a pass on the overall suit stats to keep balance within the respective lines with the added stats (just because armor tanking needs a buff doesn't mean the suits themselves are out of line per se, and we don't want to break them).
I agree the Mini suits are a great place for specialty features but what specifically would make a good counter balance for their current innate reps if those are getting removed?
Also having the logi skills be tank specific by race sounds great but the armor tanking versions are still going to need some love because their role buff which costs them millions of SP really can't be less then or equal to something the assault line gets standard.

Anyway not trying to drag this thread too far off topic just want to make sure some of the other aspects are being kept in mind, as soon as we start talking about changing more than the mods themselves we have to start also considering the broader implications of those changes and their context be that dropsuit, skill, or other.

0.02 ISK
Cross

While Im in favour of your arguments.

My concern is the dual tanking would confer an advantage that would out weigh the need for other modules, specifically damage mods. Especially since thier are shield regen bonuses on Assault suits.

Could I ask that you have a look at duel tanking in relation to your suggestions and see if dual tanking would create a situation were that strategy become overly optimal.

This is a very valid point. If both tanks are viable, why not use both?
I hate this argument because it implies that one shouldn't be viable on its own, but it's a valid point.

I think that, ideally, the fitting resources should be balanced such that it's difficult to use both tanks and easier to use one type of tank and using utility modules. Essentially, using PG as a resource primarily for tank types so that it becomes prohibitively PG intensive to dual tank and instead it encourages balanced use of tank modules and utility modules. For this to work, though, tank modules, weapons and equipment would probably have to be the only major consumers of PG.

I think I might change the fittings section to explain this.

The best solution, in my opinion, would be to make it so that the PG you have available is only good enough for one tank type in addition to your weapon and equipment. If tank modules consumed large amounts of PG and utility modules consumed primarily CPU (instead of also using lots of PG like damage mods/kinetic catalyzers) then that would encourage using just a single tank type instead of using both to gain a large durability advantage, and using utility modules in addition to their tank.

What do you think? I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.

thats the thing. shield tankers depend on NO ONE. but armor tankers to be effective need logibros.... thats alittle unbalanced.

but i think the whole mechanic of logis needs a fix, within a 20m radius of enemies the logi should get cyclic points for holding a rep tool on teammates (ie.e every 3seconds 5points, etc) whether shots are fired or not.

outside 20m logis should have the current system where only when damage taken does the logi get triage oints.


this way they dnt become useless when armor = balanced with shield. but at the same time armor + logi = shield tanker.

because right now shield > armor, unless there is a logi. why is one shield tank worth 2 people?

Well, that escalated quickly.

We're getting to the point where we're looking at huge changes to armour right now - having god plates which cost a lot in fittings is drastically different from what we have now, and frankly that isn't balanced either because slots are just as much a resource as PG or CPU.
That's not great because ideally we want to have something that CCP would genuinely consider doing.

A lot of the suggested buff to reactive plates I'm seeing here are also drastic and even if they were moved to high slots they'd obsolete plate/rep comboes, and hell, you'd start seeing armour tanking shield suits if you did that stuff in the high slots.

Extreme fittings requirements are a huge pain to deal with as well, even more so than having fewer slots in my opinion, and it'd make the top tiered items unusable simply because they're too difficult to fit.

When looking at the ferroscale and reactive plates please also remember that those might not be the final numbers from CCP. Much of this is about other stuff than the new modules, and focusing too much on that might get a possible dev response to also focus on the fact that they aren't the final numbers.

That said, I'm mucking around updating P8+P12.

Here's this week's update on issues and suggestions that the dev team discussed.

[FEEDBACK] Ferroscale and Reactive plates stats https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=86664&find=unread
Update: We will improve on getting info regarding changes and new features out to players sooner and also monitor community feedback on the new items after they get the chance to try it in game.

What fittings values are you looking at applying for the complex reactive in combination with the stats you've listed?

I don't think a base speed buff to the Gal suits is a good idea because that starts to diminish game diversity as an unarmor tanked Gal suit, or even one running Ferro plates would then be baseline faster, and that still doesn't address the idea of a more 'flavorful' racial skill. What would you think of a skill that reduced the speed penalty from plates? True this would make Ferro plates much less useful for the Gal suits but it would allow them to get more buffer/reps without being so slow they aren't viable while maintaining unique fittings possibilities between the races.

Regarding the Min Assault on board repair, again it seems too homogenizing to increase the similarity of suit stats this way, but perhaps others don't agree so that aside there's still the issue of suit balance. Are the Gal and Amarr suits weaker than the Cal and Min suits right now? Unless they are adding extra stats to them pushes them out of line with the other assault suits.

Logistics: 5% CPU/PG reduction on equipment per level Speaking as a Logi I honestly don't see the 5% CPU/PG reduction on equipment as very useful. It's not filling my equipment slots that I've ever really had trouble with (unless I'm running more than one type of uplink at a time) and the fittings cost for equipment is rarely high enough to enable me to squeeze on a better [insert item from any other slot] by downgrading my equipment to save on fittings.
I have not sat down with the numbers to see what total savings could be gained with this so perhaps I'd be surprised by actual figures in some cases but my experience tells me it's not highly useful as a buff, certainly not equivalent to the vital ability to self rep. For this change to not be an outright nerf the 25% fittings cost reduction would have to save enough to fit a Complex Rep out of the saving alone with more left over. Even then it's still costing a slot among the already constrained lows. At present I have no trouble fitting all my equipment slots for PC battles (much less pubs or FW) to whatever configuration squad/team command requests, but I most certainly do have trouble maintaining sufficient buffer HP to allow me to stay where I'm required to employ all that gear for best effect, which is why I hybrid tank. This change would make that durability aspect even lower, and my effective ability to support along with it.

The rest
I like the clear flavor/role support the method provides so general thumbs up here.
These changes would require a rework for the Laser and Scram rifles since they're currently geared to have optimal performance with their race which would now be impossible. Also no Minmatar hacking bonus that's one of my favorite aspects of the line as it provides great utility that isn't essentially combat focused, but I suppose if it balanced the rest of things I'd be content to let it go (although personally I'd rather have that than a fittings reduction on Equipment).

Cheers,
Cross

Shields don't rust

Kudos on the thread

When attempting to rebalance armor, everyone should keep the existence of triage hives and rep tools in mind. Otherwise we might end up with a Gallente heavy, stacking armor plates in the lows and having insane amounts of HP, while being repped for 175 HP/s by a logi and his triage hive/rep tool. It's an edge case, of course, but I think good balancing should account for edge cases, too.

Also about racial armor tanking boni: I think they are important when discussing balance. The reality is, caldari suits already have strong shield tank boni, while Gallente suits lack any bonus to armor tanking. For example logi suits: shield recharge 25 on Cal vs 15 on Gal. I'm saying this because in your comparison, you usually use numbers that are taken from suits designed for shield tanking, and so those numbers already have a racial bonus applied to them (when compared to the same numbers on suits.that are designed for armor tanking).

And I feel when you discuss the lower strafe speed of armor, you should mention that the armor tank has a higher damage output due to damage mods in the high slots. I think in a 1 vs 1 situation, higher damage makes up for lower strafe speed. With a 20% damage bonus, you need 20% less time to take down you opponent. Putting it another way, you effectively reduce the total HP of your opponent by 20%, which is very significant.

Aw man, I really want my proto suit now. I only have 3 lows and I can't drop a rep to make this work. Also, why did it take so long to figure this out? Or was it some dark secret I didn't know about?

Even with the buff it's still way worse than shields.
Plus we don't know if it was intended to be this way, it might just be a mathematical error.

There you go. You guys just need to play around with this stuff a little. I run the fit that I posted about because I run a lot of high end equipment. It suits my play stile. There is a lot that can be done with this though.

I think you just found the build that was in my dreams.

About to try it out.

Because you would use them in high slots my man. That's why. As for the percentages, ignore my numbers. I don't know the math but there must be a percentage that is balanced.

If you don't have a logi suit but have a assault or basic suit try this out

2x complex Ferro scale
1x enhanced reactive plates
1x complex plate
2x extenders

Needs engineering to max but gives 840 hp but only 1.15 repair.
Probably a better fit out there but what I'm going to try.

Assuming the stacking works as Son-of-a-Gun claims and we're not all being epically trolled, here are some configurations for Gallente proto logi with Armor Upgrades 4:

---

---

---

Complex Ferroscale plate 1: 100% of 0.0%
Basic plate 1: 87% of 3.0%
Enhanced plate 1: 57.1% of 5.0%
Enhanced plate 2: 28.3% of 5.0%
Complex Armor Repairer

545 hp armor
11.25 hp/sec armor rep
6.8% movement penalty

#4 looks even better

---

Complex Ferroscale plate 1: 100% of 0.0%
Basic plate 1: 87% of 3.0%
Enhanced plate 1: 57.1% of 5.0%
Complex Armor Repairer
Complex Armor Repairer

449 hp armor
17.5 hp/sec armor rep
5.5% movement penalty

#5 is lookin good too

---

If anyone tries one of these fits let me know!

Interesting. They do indeed work oddly like that.
I can't justify putting them on my fits though, because they remain too difficult to fit and too weak.

Try 1 enhanced ferro, 1 basic plate, 2. enhanced plates and a complex repairer.

500 HP with an 11.25 HP/s repair rate. It has a few percent less movement penalty though.
What I've been running is triple enhanced plate with dual complex repairers. With that setup I get 470 with 17.5 HP/s and a few percent more movement penalty.

This does give the option of a slightly higher HP build which is slightly faster, at the cost of a significant chunk of your repairing ability. It's a nice option, but it's not really an upgrade.

For Gallente Assault (which really needs an armor related bonus, not shield recharge, to make it work--and it will get it SOON) here's a fit:

Enhanced Ferroscale plate 1: 100% of 0.0%
Basic plate 1: 87% of 3.0%
Basic plate 2: 57.1% of 3.0%
Complex Armor Repairer

439 hp armor
6.3 hp/sec armor rep
4.3% movement penalty

Leaves room for 2 Complex Light Damage Modifiers, Duvolle AR, Core Flaylock, basic grenade, nanohive, and enhanced shield extender.

I find issue with your reasoning in this. You go on to say that the armors should be diferent, but then you come down into the next section and say "Well Armor tanks have less HP"

You cannot say, These things must be different, and then try to compare them like they are the same. Using your own example.

Feel free to flame me all you want for this next part. I don't have time for PC and do pubs and I never run proto in Pubs. so I haven't looked at my proto fit in awhile. But if I remember correctly the Gal suit gets 3 High/4 Low and vice versa for the Caldari. Your example only shows 2 low slots for the Gallente suit, but all 4 high slots for the Caldari suit.

You are rigging the results to suit your hypothesis. How about showing 210 +115 + 115 + 115 + 115 = 670 if you are going to compare HP levels straight up.


And by your own example, those Shield extenders are all in the highs, which means the Caldari cannot fit Damage mods. However the Gallente soldier can fit 3x damage mods. So therefore in a straight up Brawler vs Skirmisher fight, the Armor tanker does more DPS and has alot more health.

Of course you can say, But the speed penalty is SOOOO bad. You are correct. However CCP has to balance the ability of the Armor tanker to be the absolute FOTM because having perfect armor and Damage capabilities is BROKEN... So thats why there is both a speed and a PG/CPU issue, to keep that broke situation from occuring. Thats the price for armor tanking.

For the sake of diversity I think Higher HP and lower repair is the better options. Maintains a clear pro/con to each tanking type and supports the value of Logi on the field while still making Armor more viable.

0.02 ISK
Cross

I am rigging my results, I omitted it just to create a bias to promote different playstyles. Yes you can use armor reppers, but if you are stacking regen then you are basically trying to turn your armor into shields and might as well just use shields. The whole plus I see of armor is the ability to have protection while stacking damage mods. Yes it is slow and you will just get grenaded, but as you see, you can indeed just stack 2 Armor plates to get the same health and then stack full damage mods, which the Caldari can't do.

Yes he can hide and regen, but thats the whole point of shields, hide and regen. The whole point I see with armor is you kill him so fast he can't regen. And then inbetween battles your logi or your other armor tanker friend both repair each other and move on.

This is true. There are several possible ways to fix the shield vs armor imbalance and honestly I'm not even saying that a heaving leaning toward buffer over reps is an innately better way to fix the armor/shield gap per se. The great part about buffer is that it's a possible fix for the disparity in tanks which also supports the viability of Logi running support/medic fits where as options that create more armor/shield balance by making armor more self-sustaining (as shields are now) tends to reduce the role value of a support/medic Logi.

Re: EDIT, yes those numbers need looked at I'm not a big fan of OHK weapons in general. Some things like a damage mod stacked sniper? Sure fine but things like the contact nades seem really dubious to me. Regardless of the OHK thing in general however, if there are more OHK weapons against one type of tank than another that's a problem.

0.02 ISK
Cross

This fit requires maxed engineering skills, and grenades and equipment don't fit.
An actual fit would likely be weaker.

I think your math is wrong.. I have never pumped bullets into someone for 14 seconds before they die. pretty much everyone dies in about 1, 2 or 3 seconds. This isn't wow where we circle the boss mob and whack a mole all day.

I actually tried a Shield Tanker earlier (Every time I make a Caldari, it turns out to be my pure tanker, or it doesn't get far before I decide I want to make room for a Heavy...), and holy crap. I was using a Militia Caldari Medium Dropsuit, with a Complex + Enhanced Shield Extenders on it, a PG Upgrade, Injector, etc. And... I went 12/2 in my first fight. So... I'm keeping that suit.

Functioning Proto nanite injectors, means a potential rep of over 400 armor HP in 3 seconds.

I found another good build for assaults and basics
One Ferro scale plates two enhanced plates and 1 complex plate
and three complex extenders
This will give you 887.7 hp with 6.25 repair at the cost of 7% movement penalty

I hope it's not a bug, but ferro plates not only have no movement penatly, but also reduce the penalty of regular plates via stacking penalty. Great for true armor tankers with lots of low slots. Try it yourself, put one complex On, then stack ferro plates and watch your speed rise.

But.... With explosives actually working again, I can't count how many of my pro suits have been instantly evaporated.

Reduce explosive dmg, or give me my laser counter back and I think all will be good.

I had no idea a Flux could kill until today. I was being shot at, someone threw a Flux, and... Yea. Every time I try to kill with a Flux, I get disappointed and somehow, much more than 1 HMG is pointed at my face.

EDIT: 13th, it looks like you need a like. So here you go.

Don't know but the new plate need a slight buff like complex Ferro need 70 hp and reactive need more repair and less penalty and a slight armor buff.

Perhaps the reactive plates should give half the repair of a same-level repairer, as well as half the armor and move penalty of a same-level plate, with ~1.25x the CPU of a same level plate, and ~1.25x the PG of a repairer, rounded up to the nearest whole? So a Basic Reactive Plate would go from 15HP to 33, a 1% penalty to a 1.5, keep its current repair bonus, and go from 10/4 CPU/PG to 13/2.

Although perhaps that armor bonus needs to be reduced further so it's still worse than a Ferroscale Plate. Or maybe give Ferroscale the "half as effective" values and give these Ferroscale's current ones... I dunno, this requires additional thought.

CPU staying below 40, I can get behind, although PG being less than or equal to 10, I'm not sure about. That'd give the Complex version a lower PG requirement than either an equivalent level repairer or plate. Now, granted it'd be less effective than either of them so I can see why you'd suggest it, but I'm not entirely sure the cost matches the benefit in those cases. Maybe give them the mean PG +1/1/2 of a same level repairer and plate? That'd be 3/7/13 rather than 4/9/16...

Put reactive and ferroscale in low slots, could that help?

Currently I'm ******* done with this.

I want to make am AmarrI RP toon, the one I made and spent money on was something I was proud of walked out of academy with less than 750 SP unspent with a KDR of 11 damn proud of that.

Joined the big boys only to find im goddamn not even able to compete due to lack of SP, Armour is gimped as hell, its not even possible to play armour all that well with its slow movement speed that means I'm being run down by every type of shield user in town.

Explosive weapons with no draw back to being used, while anti shield guns continue to sit with numerous repercussions for continued use including potential to kill oneself....

It's all just getting to me. After that my 11KDR went down to 3....then to 2.5, then to 2 and now its dropped below two because I don't have the SP, don't have any bonues for using armour tanked toons..... no wonder Im AFKING through this 3x SP even even if I did get 4 mill SP at the end of it (my current 2.5+ the 1.5) It wont fix the ******* glaring issues CCP is cocking around with and not fixing.

******* do something CCP

Is it just me or when a grenade goes off and gets through your shield it then applies the grenades full damage to your armour rather than what is left over? It certainly feels that way to me at times.

That's more then 120% like 78% more. Wait. Math is hard.

Money sent.

If flux start doing damage to armour I will quit.

Alternatively, 46 shields @ 70% efficiency = 65.7 HP 'used'.

400-65.7 = 334 damage left, which dealt 526-88 = 438 armor damage.

This implies that armor takes 131% locus damage.

So, 70% shield efficiency, 130% armor efficiency. Seems reasonable.

60% damage difference is reasonable?

Who are these modules for? An armor tanker can't lose HP, we struggle as it is, and we need our mids to buffer against explosive damage.

Shield tankers would love this. They lose a mid slot, which isn't nothing, and some armor to gain armor regen and speed. Matari suits would eat this up alive.

Is there something I'm missing?

So for fun I thought I'd write down some of the arguments I've heard over this campaign. Please join in if you have a good one.

1. Armor is for buffer. Shield is for fast regen.
I like this because it uses fantasy as facts. An armor tanker who has buffered higher then shields will have a major speed penalty and is unlikely to survive repeated encounters. An armor tank that is balanced will have less HP then a shield tank as well as less regen.

2. Armor doesn't have to deal with flux grenades.
While this is true it's not exactly the silver bullet to balancing. We have a grenade we have to deal with on our own and that is attached to every militia suit a clone starts with. On top of that, flux grenades can't kill they can only prevent you from wanting to enter combat for 10 seconds or so.

3. Not everything is released yet. When that's done then we can talk about balance.
This is one of my favorites. Yes maybe down the pipe there is a weapon that'll do armor damage to every shield point a suit has or something else equally ludicrous. This game is considered released, balance issues should be dealt with as is not TBD. I think this game has great potential, I'm not going to wait ten years before I can recommend it to friends.

4. Armor is fine because of rep guns and nanohives.
While 3 is my favorite this one is my most infuriating. Look, it is a nice bonus to armor to have outside repair sources when shields don't but to there's a reason for this. Armor has no natural repair rate. Most shields are back up before a they could be substantially repaired, the exception being the new commando suit and its 10 hp a sec.
My real reason this pisses me off is that it creates a barrier between solo play and group play. Shields are fine for both while armor would only be good for one. It's an insidious statement that allows for continued imbalance under the guise of unique game play.
The reason why people make this statement is false attribution, people working together will be more effective, doesn't matter if you're a shield tanker or an armor tanker. So when people see or are more effective in a group of armor tankers they assume it's because of the armor but I would say it's for the team work. Team play is a force multiplier which is hard to account for when measure effectiveness.


Well there's mine, do you guys have any?

I have to say that all thought shields still seems superior to amor in most aspects- what Ive noticed is that CCP gave armor tankers more options- These options have allowed us to gain speed and regenerative properties- thus we have made that step towards balance because that what shield tankers ultimately have- lost of tank and very few penalties-

What i think now is that the amount of shields a person can stack without penalty is whats pressing- If i stack 600hp worth of armor - its all going to get taken away in a grenade blast but for shields 600 hp is a pretty substantial amount of chewing for most weapons to accomplish - but I have also notice that if armor tankers do not charge into battle and play their cards right they can excel further than most shield tankers

1- triage hives for all armor tankers

2- dropsuit kinetics

these are two important aspects of all shield tankers-

3- play the back field

Armor does have more hp, unless you bring in Cal Logi who are kind of screwy and deserve a different bonus. More hp per plate is deserved but let's not go crazy. Flux does not affect everyone equally, armor tankers must admit this. Plus these kill now (takes at least a 2nd grenade and the kill zone has a much smaller radius. )

I can agree with the number of explosive weapons and their huge dmg increase vs armor. Really should have been like 120% max. It's really only the MDs and Flaylocks that are the problem.

Plasma cannon greatly attacks shields, but it's a killer regardless. Forge gun I thought was a hybrid... doesn't matter though as it kills all in 1 hit. ScR and laser Rifles both do moderately better damage vs shields.

Funny; if you take a look at this, You'll learn that more damage types types do more damage to armor (3:5), and there's 4 more weapons that do more damage to armor.......

Black Star - you have some really good points- I recently have been trying to assemble play style for the gallente logi and the gallente assault- I do not think that armor and shield are equal, but the benefit of armor is not as obvious and maybe me you and some other people can figure out how to exploit armor

The expert sniper seems to be where this guy will excel- Lets face it the best scout suit is gallente- so when you look at the stats for the other gallente suits they scream " sniper and long range" - you can high tank armor - throw down a little triage hive and snipe away your opponents- ( provided your in a secure location )

The gallente tank- speaks for himself

The gallente - dropship: the best for infantry killing because low slots that allow for turret modification-


I intend to write a better for formal post- currently I am in the middile of moving back home - ( San Juan ) but ill use the copious flight time to ponder the new armor changes

Cat Merc's idea, the one that I was supporting, isn't quite like that. I do like the idea of using fitting requirements to balance things out more, but I would be very hesitant to have 'super mods' which do massive things but need loads of resources, because then you get lots of slots free, and inherently slots can be used in turn for resource expanders so you can get more on. In addition to being disciplined with your fitting practices, you can get a situation where you can fit quite a few of these modules on and that ends up unbalancing things.

The other thing is that the penalties on those plates are very harsh. If you're going to go that route, I'd say 5/10/15 or 5/7.5/10, because if it's a jump from 10% to 20% penalty for only 60 more HP, then people will be hesitant to use them, especially with the massive requirements for the complex.

With the numbers you've suggested, I think that people would stick to using enhanced plates, or maybe even stacking basics. Indeed, stacking basics would have a very powerful effect because they have barely any fitting requirements, and they give very large amounts of HP. You could quite feasibly stack 3 of them on with a pair of complex reppers on a GaLogi and end up with 617 raw armour HP, in addition to a repair rate of 17.5 - 25 HP/s, without a very big penalty. That's actually really quite powerful, and you have to remember that it's leaving lots of fitting resources free. You could then quite easily get triple complex damage mods or proto equipment in addition to a proto weapon/grenade.

I think that the movement penalty for armour plates should definitely be there, but not in such a draconian form that it encourages people to use the lower tiers exclusively. A flat rate throughout the tiers might be ideal, like 5% all the way through, or otherwise tweak the penalty so it only affects sprint speed/stamina.

I do quite like your repairer - it's very similar to the Cat Merc idea and I've become fond of it. It's less that it's a straight buff and more that it improves role definition.




As a side note, I've been thinking about fitting resources and looking the the EvE model (which isn't the greatest comparison for dust, but in terms of fitting it really is very similar). What if HP, tank, and weapon modules were the main things which consumed powergrid? You could weight the requirements for those so you could fit a solid tank with them, but then have more CPU free for utility modules.
Basically:
- HP, and tank modules (e.g. repairers and plates) more heavily weighted for powergrid. Shields would take mroe CPU and armour more PG, but they'd still be emphasising the PG requriement.
- Utility modules (e.g. kinetic catalyzers and damage modifiers) more heavily weighted for CPU.

That would encourage people fitting a solid tank for one type of HP, but then taking advantage of the various utilities available to the tank type, like speed modules for shield tankers.
The dropsuit resources could also be tweaked so that, say, Caldari dropsuits could have lots of CPU but less PG, and Gallente dropsuits could have lots of PG but less CPU. If Amarr dropsuits were to be brought firmly into the armour tanking fold, in addition to slot tweaks they could be given a hefty chunk of PG but lacking in CPU.

What do you think?

A bit of context, at ~3.645 speed a suit is no longer able to jump over small lips or ledges causing it to become trapped in many areas as well as being quite slow moving across the ground (note: this limit may be reached earlier as well, my testing hasn't been exhaustive, but I can confirm that by 3.645 such limitations are definitely in place).

This is important to keep in mind as it's a major debarkation point for what a fitting can and cannot do on the field and on the Amarr Logi for example it occurs with the use of two complex plates (~20% speed reduction).

Cheers,
Cross

Splitting PG and CPU between tank and utility could work. It would have the benefit of giving both armor and shield tanks equal access to the same non-tank mods, but also might lead to a kind of homogeneity that would work against armor and shields having very distinct characters. I don't know. There are so many variables in this one, and it's unlikely to happen since it would require everything to be overhauled.

Looking at those numbers I suggested again it's clear that no one would ever use anything other than Basic Plates. Just doubling their fitting numbers doesn't match with the x2 benefits. I think armor plates need to have more to HP to make up for the lack of slots and to counterbalance slow movement and repair, but doubling the HP might be going too far. How about this:

Basic Armor Plates: 94 HP, 4% movement penalty, 20 CPU, 6 PG (15/4.5 Gallente Assault gk.0)

Enhanced Armor Plates: 118 HP, 5% penalty, 28 CPU, 9 PG (21/6.8 Gallente Assault gk.0)

Complex Armor Plates: 140 HP, 6% penalty, 36 CPU, 12 PG (27/9 Gallente Assault gk.0)

If Gallente Assault were given the fitting bonus for plates and an extra low slot instead of high slot a proto could fit a CPU upgrade, 2 plates, 2 reppers, and 2 damage mods ( or high slot armor mods like Nanobot Accelerator for faster repping!)

I think there should be a difference in penalty because that fits with armor's character and allows for a bit lower fitting costs, but only a 1% difference or it quickly gets out of hand.

Gallente Assault must be 2/5 for any of this to work though. And 2/4 for Amarr Assault would allow them to focus more (and be more Amarr). And for Amarr Logistics to benefit from this and it's repper bonus it must be 1/5!

Why not? Armor tankers need as many low slots as they can get due to having to fit repairers, and you don't need more than 2 damage mods.

I already suggested a change for Armor Plates, so here for your perusal is a revamping of all 3 varieties of plates, with the adjusted fittings for Gallente Assault based on the proposed -7% per level reduction to armor plates CPU/PG, replacing the shield recharge bonus.

Armor Plates:

Basic Armor Plates: 94 HP, 4% movement penalty, 20 CPU, 6 PG (13/4 Gallente Assault gk.0)

Enhanced Armor Plates: 118 HP, 5% penalty, 28 CPU, 9 PG (18/6 Gallente Assault gk.0)

Complex Armor Plates: 140 HP, 6% penalty, 36 CPU, 12 PG (23/8 Gallente Assault gk.0)


Ferroscale Plates:

Basic Ferroscale Plates: 42 HP, 23 CPU, 5 PG (15/3 Gallente Assault gk.0)

Enhanced Ferroscale Plates: 68 HP, 31 CPU, 8 PG (20/5 Gallente Assault gk.0)

Complex Ferroscale Plates: 93 HP, 40 CPU, 11 PG (26/7 Gallente Assault gk.0)


Reactive Plates:

Basic Reactive Plates: 34 HP, 1 HP/sec repair, 1% movement penalty, 22 CPU, 6 PG (14/4 Gallente Assault gk.0)

Enhanced Reactive Plates: 45 HP, 2 HP/sec repair, 2% movement penalty, 28 CPU, 10 PG (16/6.5 Gallente Assault gk.0)

Complex Reactive Plates: 62 HP, 3 HP/sec repair, 3% movement penalty, 39 CPU, 12 PG (25/8 Gallente Assault gk.0)


With these numbers the 3 different plates would each have distinct and effective roles:

a) Armor Plates: Basic go-to tank for armor tankers. Useful for shield tankers who expect external reps.

b) Ferroscale Plates: Complementary module for armor tankers which can drastically reduce movement penalty. Useful for shield tankers and scouts to keep their speed up.

c) Reactive Plates: Go-to module for shield tankers and scouts to provide some buffer and rep. Complimentary module for armor tankers that allows them to fine tune their fit in regards to HP, rep, and movement penalty.

I really think these numbers work and if you can find any ***** in their armor please let me know. CCP I don't need any response but I hope you're reading! I make no claim on these ideas. Feel free to use them and I hope they help your revision process!

You can't take away Gallente Logi's bonuses and Amarr Logi's work as is too if they're given more low slots. Minmatar and Caldari shouldn't get help with armor, so that leaves Amarr Assault. Fitting isn't a problem for it so it needs another bonus. I was thinking +2% per level to adjusted armor HP, or +1% per level to adjusted armor and shields HP, but maybe there's a better option.

Oh and maybe a bonus to movement penalty would be a good change for Amarr Heavy, and then Gallente Heavy could have an armor related bonus.

Giving Amarr Logi 1 High and 5 Low would work fine with the UI. I think Gallente Logi should be 2 / 6 but that may not work with the UI. Yeah you're right the beefier and slower heavies are, the more they fit their role. Maybe they could get a damage reduction bonus. With the above plates and a hardening bonus heavies would be a lot tougher to take down, which would be good for the game. Taking down a heavy would require teamwork. Actually with those improved plates they might need to have their base speed reduced to not be OP.

A bonus to plate fitting, with the new plates and dynamic repairer, would give Gallente Assault roughly equal HP and rep to Caldari, as shown in the example in this thread, while making armor tanking even more distinct from shield tanking. Caldari would have to spend more to fit the same armor, and Gallente (and Amarr?) would have the advantage of getting their peak reps (+60%) in the middle of a firefight as opposed to having to fall back until shields start recharging again--a perfect counterpoint to shields! Once the firefight is over a logi bro can top them up.

Yay! New dev blog!
Double Yay! Caldari Logi changes!

Oh, the caldari assault gets that bonus? Instead of hybrid reloading speed? Uh. Wut?

I don't understand why they felt they had to keep the bonus in there somewhere. Or why they had to use it to replace the reload speed bonus over the shield recharge speed bonus. Caldari assualts are kind of awesome now.

Yeah exactly. The mods are what give armor and shields their value. Their imbalances need to be addressed and then dropsuits balanced to work with that. Having said that, looking at Assault, if we start with Caldari Assault as the control then Gallente would need double armor suit bonuses to match Caldari's double shield suit bonuses and something, maybe passive rep, to match Caldari's extra 5hp of shield recharge. If the value of those bonuses are balanced and the mods are balanced, and you've dealt with the problem of fitting mod, only then are the two suits balanced IMHO.

As for Minmatar Assault I think it needs a new bonus that suits its strengths better than the current shield recharge bonus, which only gives it 4.5 extra recharge at proto. If a Min Assault wants decent recharge, starting from 18, it needs a shield energizer, which is a good fit considering it has 5 high slots. I think a passive bonus to shield delay would work well.

The Amarr currently has the benefit of being able to tank either way, but when and if they fix armor they may want to gear Amarr towards armor to balance the use of armor and shields in the game, at which point an armor bonus instead of shield recharge and moving a high slot to a low slot would do the trick I think.

As you said a big problem for armor tankers is that they have sacrifice a low slot for a fitting mod if they want to fit all complex mods. The solution for this, I believe, is to replace a high slot with a low slot for Gallente Assault (2/5), Gallente Logisitcs (2/6), and Amarr Logistics (2/5). The alternative would be to enable fitting mods to go in either high or low slots.

Bonuses should work like ship bonuses in EVE. You have your racial tank bonus (Caldari & Minmatar - Shields, Amarr & Gallente - Armor) and then you have your bonus which is specific to that ship's role, i.e. +5% rate of fire, -10% capacitor usage, +10% drone HP and damage, +5% max velocity. So all Cal and Min medium, light, and heavy should have a different shield bonus, and all Amarr and Gallente a different armor bonus. Then each suit has a bonus for it's specific role, which could be tank, weapon, fitting, speed, or scan related.

Regulators should be kept in low slots so shield tankers can focus fully on shields if they wish, but armor tankers need a high slot module to give them that option too. And I think we need to explore how armor modules can be make armor tanking equally effective before we give huge buffs to to of the races to solve its UPness for them, because that would pigeonhole armor into two races and shields into the other, whereas balanced modules and suit stats would make one more effective on each suit but wouldn't rule out the other as a secondary option.

It might also effect the level of saturation within the meta of explosive damage. If the easy, and most frequent, kills are to be had against armor then a trend towards use of weapons which punish armor would make sense. Why kill one shield tanker when you can take out 3 armor tankers instead? (hence the vital need for diverse tanking methods which maintain parity, because without it the whole context of the game could slowly become distorted).

They do seem to be very common right now.
I'm reserving judgement on them until explosive damage is tweaked so they don't instagib me.

I can't +1 this enough.

Honestly, a straight buff would still help.
There are imbalances between the suit types but note that we can shield tank as well. That's always worth noting whenever using dual tanking as a point in any debate between shields and armour.

Why?
I don't disagree, but I want to hear your explanation.

Alright, another module idea then...

IF a problem with armor tanking is its ability to be annihilated by explosives so as to completely nullify their teamwork aspect.

What if: you added a highslot Damage Control module.

It could increase the clone survivability rate after being killed. Basically it would increase that extra HP that is hit after all armor is depleted. Or it could give clones a few extra seconds after dieing.

I am understanding and agreeing more though, that WHILE the key to armor tanking is teamwork, explosives are in very direct oposition to that teamwork. I am still undetermined whether the problem is that people haven't learned to adapt out of the solo focus yet or if mechanics make it that much more difficult.

For example, remote repair tools have the ability to repair outside of anything's splash range. So if an armor tanking team were to attack an objective, they could all fight withing eachother's optimals while exposing each other only to isolated explosives damage.

Also, being able to identify and stay up to date on targets easier, would let your team know, "Hey this area is covered by explosves we can't go there until we can suprise them" would help. They have talked as if this is a direction they may take EWAR, where you can scan an area and see the suit/weapons of the chevrons.

I'd honestly go the other way a bit. I think the average time to kill could stand to be increased by about 20%.
The faster you make all deaths the faster new players die as they'll take the harsh end of the stick there.
The faster the average rate of death is the more effect you need out of your gear in a short time to make it worth running at all, this compressed risk vs reward is problematic as, taken too far, it will discourage players from fully leveling skills and thus shorten the lifespan of the game.
Also, the shorter the average lifespan becomes, i.e. the easier it is to kill someone, the more focus it puts on pure slayer tactics and meta within the game which isn't an improvement IMO. Besides the blow to support roles it all increases the FotM behavior and the use of things like redline sniping, murder taxi, etc. as ways to mitigate risk.

To kill faster under present, or even higher average, eHP standards it's relatively simple. Shoot them in the back and/or head, that's a OHK with many militia weapons using zero damage mods or SP to support them. Even with 20% more eHP in game there would be many weapons that are OHK simply by investing SP into their use (to say nothing of stacking on damage mods).

0.02 ISK
Cross

When is enough, enough?

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=101975
I CAN DIE HAPPY

Well. I'm a very happy man. There'll be a little more on this topic (about reactive plates, in particular) but this has made my day.
This is the culmination of 3 months of campaigning! <3 you all.

Most people equate "balance" with "comfort" if ti's not comfortable for them then they get upset when it's effective against them (or sometimes even effective on their same side, if that makes them feel overshadowed) and cry nerf.

Consider the number of threads that justify a nerf/buff primarily on the shoulders of comparing it to something else and saying "look it should be better/worse than X, and it isn't". How often do you hear "it should be equal to, but different than X, and it isn't" whether in rhetoric or in suggestions.

This is a larger portion of the reason why many threads degenerate into AR vs other weapons or Assault Suit vs other suits.
Because many people are comfortable playing an AR using Assault so it's a common advocacy, and a common target.
Same with AV vs Vehicles, the players of each advocate that their end is fine or UP and needs help while the other is over the top, again because it is what's comfortable for their game play.

Back during closed beta I was convinced that the MD was OP, then someone challenged me in thread to go and use the MD for awhile and report the results. I accepted that challenge and discovered that the MD was not in fact OP at all, just radically different which caused my misconceptions about it. The LR (viziam bug aside) was similar last build, I know of many who were sure the whole line was broken can couldn't be beaten, but my free dragonfly fit could take out even viziam users 8/10 times (much like my free logi fit can do to MD users right now), however those players, mostly Heavies and Cal Assaults (shield tanked) struggled and so declared the weapon OP, now look at the state of it.

Player opinions are still worth hearing and I'm glad CCP does it but for the most part valuable feedback requires a whole lot more than reporting what happens to you/your preferred play style when it encounters something that forces you outside your comfort zone. A fact which many players are rather emotionally opposed to accepting or acknowledging.

0.02 ISK
Cross

So plates and ferro are soon to be in a reasonable place. Now we can continue to push for reactives to not suck and get us some racial bonuses to help with regen.

And destroy the economy that is held up by repair modules, units, and equipment?
For shame

You're right, that would be a great tool for someone to use if they have a fitting they'd like to post as an example of something that is purported to be broken.

Do we know if they are changing the current speed penalty bug where the ferroscale plates negate movement speed penalties?

If they fix that to work as intended what do you guys project will be the NET result of movement speed? I suppose we'll feel a slight buff in actual terms but nothing ground breaking.

Thoughts?

BL4CKST4R according to your numbers here and the fact that a militia AR does 467 dps with no mods, without proficiency and without head-shots. 110% to shield and 95% efficacy to armor. because with the bonus 1.1x every shot is actually worth 37.4 hp, we can deduce the following regarding these suits tank ability:

*note: this assumes that you are standing still and that the assailant is not missing any shots. milita Ar has 48 rounds in the clip.


CPU- 344/394
PG- 72/79
Shield- 553
Armor- 392
Shield Recharge Rate- 31.25
Shield Delay- 5
Shield Depleted Delay- 8
Armor Repair Rate- 6.25
Movement- 4.72
Sprint- 6.94
Duration- 15
Stamina- 157.5
Stamina Recovery- 15.75
Scan Profile- 45
Scan Precision- 49.5
Scan Radius- 15
Melee- 110

EHP: 945 | ISK: 91,800 | AUR: 0

553/[37.4*1.1] = 12.50 (approx 13 shots) shots to remove
553/[467*1.1] = 1.07 seconds to remove

392/[37.4*.95] = 11.03 (round up) shots to deplete armor
392/[467 *.95] = 0.88 seconds to deplete armor

Total shots required to kill = 24 rounds.
Total time to kill = 1.95 or approximately 2 seconds.

this opponent needs 24 rounds and 2 seconds of direct fire not missing a shot to take out this suit. with good timing and movement variations, including but not limited to using cover this suits survivability is extremely high.




CPU- 267/394
PG- 62/79
Shield- 368
Armor- 625
Shield Recharge Rate- 25
Shield Delay- 7
Shield Depleted Delay- 10
Armor Repair Rate- 6.25
Movement- 4.64
Sprint- 6.82
Duration- 15
Stamina- 157.5
Stamina Recovery- 15.75
Scan Profile- 45
Scan Precision- 49.5
Scan Radius- 15
Melee- 110

EHP: 993 | ISK: 83,355 | AUR: 0

368/[37.4*1.1] = 8.94 (round up) shots to remove
368/[467*1.1] = .716 seconds to remove

625/[37.4*.95] = 17.59 (round up) shots to deplete armor
625/[467 *.95] = 1.4 seconds to deplete armor

Total shots required to kill = 27 rounds.
Total time to kill = 2.11 or approximately 2 seconds.

the difference between this one and prior is that it requires 3 more shots to kill under the aforementioed conditions. but this is negligible don't count on those 3 shots making that big a difference.

CPU- 261/394
PG- 55/79
Shield- 553
Armor- 150
Shield Recharge Rate- 31.25
Shield Delay- 5
Shield Depleted Delay- 8
Armor Repair Rate- 6.25
Movement- 5
Sprint- 7.35
Duration- 15
Stamina- 157.5
Stamina Recovery- 15.75
Scan Profile- 45
Scan Precision- 49.5
Scan Radius- 15
Melee- 110

EHP: 703 | ISK: 80,385 | AUR: 0

]553/[37.4*1.1] = 12.50 (approx 13 shots) shots to remove
553/[467*1.1] = 1.07 seconds to remove

150/[37.4*.95] = 4.22 (round up) shots to deplete armor
150/[467 *.95] = .338 seconds to deplete armor

Total shots required to kill = 17 rounds.
Total time to kill = 1.4




CPU- 105/394
PG- 29/79
Shield- 150
Armor- 625
Shield Recharge Rate- 25
Shield Delay- 7
Shield Depleted Delay- 10
Armor Repair Rate- 6.25
Movement- 4.64
Sprint- 6.82
Duration- 15
Stamina- 157.5
Stamina Recovery- 15.75
Scan Profile- 45
Scan Precision- 49.5
Scan Radius- 15
Melee- 110

EHP: 775 | ISK: 70,530 | AUR: 0

150/[37.4*1.1] = 3.64 (round up) shots to remove
150/[467*1.1] = .291 seconds to remove

625/[37.4*.95] = 17.59 (round up) shots to deplete armor
625/[467 *.95] = 1.4 seconds to deplete armor

Total shots to kill = 21
total time to kill = 1.7

as you can see your movement speed is proportionally decreased by the slight increase in durability you get. compared to shield tanking, you lose .36 meters per second in movement speed, to gain the ability to tank 3 more shots, or consequently survive. 2seconds longer on average.

of course these numbers only represent your ability to survive direct fire from a single milita AR without damage mods, headshots, or proficiency on the bonus 10% buff given all weapons after the first week of uprising was factored in.

these results would compare diferenctly if i were to use a HMG or scrambelr as a constant. however, as AR fire is the most common arms fire you will encounter this is a good measure of your suits durability.

my point exactly. the enemy would need to put on average for these suits (min 17, max 27) 22 shots into your suit s in order to cause significant damage or to kill your suit.

the average life span of these suits under direct sustained fire is 2.2 seconds, the average life span of a heavy is 2.7 seconds. so in short were the suit designs you suggested ever implemented your caldari OR galente set up would be able to tank as hard as a heavy.


The important thing to note is that this is assuming that you are standing still, not fighting back and the enemy is not missing a single shot within their effective range.


now factor in the fact that your suits:
1. have between 4.7 and 5.2 movement speed.
2. have great armor and shield recharge/repair rates
3. can hold a GEK or duvolle AR
4. can be alterted to carry all grenade types and some equipment.



Now, your survivability has increased exponentially. because you can recover from battle at a high speed, can endure punishment, can dishout high damage, and can replenish your ammo as need be, inaddition to holding AV nades or flux, etc. these alone increase your life span several fold.

Now factor in that your movement speeds are still 4.6-5.2 m/s and that as aforementioned your opponent needs to hit you consistently with anywhere between 22-27 bullets from an AR to kill you.

If you are moving around and dodging, even if your opponent hits you with 10 shots, out of 60 (due to missing and spray and pray, for lower skilled players that number is much lower) your shields will start recovering before he finishes reloading.

I dare say you can take on 4 people at the same time and consistently in CQC just by being mobile and spraying a GEK because your tank is so effective! but, this is not OP because it is by design you need max level skills to be able to tank like this, and it cost you 100k ISK.

at longer ranges (preferably mid-range) you become a GOD due to damage fall off your shields and armor will take almost no damage from all save a sniper or forgun gun

this could be advantageous. it will also, cause players to tank easier because they know they won't NEED reps per say. nonetheless, there should be a limiting factor or a limit to this self repair efficacy.

i.e limits
Armor reps lower limit should be 1.
armor reps upper limit should be 20 per second max. (after so many armor repair mods are put on if this limit is reached they have zero effect)


OR

i.e limiting factor
initial armor rep (inherent rate) is 1 (for example)
any skill that increases this rate is not effected by the limiting factor.
however, every armor repair mod after the 1st that is added, is reduced by a specific percentage.


whichever of these two allows the highest possible armor repair per second that is lower than 25 hp/s

Camping on triage hives.

the problem with using the blanket term 'defending' (this is totally related to armor vs shield), is that the ONLY difference between an attacker and a defender is that the 'defender' is already there.

really, if shield tankers are good at attacking a position how much more so can they defend the same position? since, difference is simply positioning, relative to offense, shield tankers can Do both better than armor tankers.

if armor tankers are ok at defending then they are ok at offense inversely, under the same conditions. the problem is this is flawed. If they need triage to defend a position they need it to assault. and since this doesnt work on defense it wont work on offense in a similar situation.

i.e. if galente armor tankers were defending a hallway and shield tankers take them out, in the same location with roles reversed, the shield tankers would be superior defenders

TL;DR the difference between offense and defense is position. and since positioning is a tactic, and we are comparing equipment and dropsuits. a superior dropsuit on offense or defense will always be a superior drop suit..

What is it that people who argue that we are balanced always say? "Well the younglings could have just used flux grenades!" "Where were the younglings logibros?"

I know that you're saying that armor will still make you slower as compared to shields and I agree. I know you're saying that over alll shields are less on pg and cpu and i agree. You forgot one important variable though. What type of weapon is the armor wearer using and what type of weapon is the person wearing shields using? Some weapons are hybrids, some useful against armor, and others useful against shields. So factor that into the equation not to mention fire rate and the skill of the person using the weapon the armor stacker in many cases may win. Also the person wearing armor has a larger HP pool for a logi w/ repairs to heal him while he fights someone stacking shields who may also have a logi backing him. Consider the HP pool the armor person has w/ the ability for instant repairs from a logi and he should win everytime. I think thats balanced. Point I'm making is carry the right weapon w/ you for the fight and play in groups where players compliment eachothers roles.

just remember minmintar have the lowest overall ehp. so, what could balance caldari shield tanking could adversly effect minmintar shield tanking. (honestly i've been pushing to get minmintar to have more low slots)

tbh the caldari slot load out should be switched with the minmintar. so at proto, the caldar have 5 high and 2 low. and minmintar have 4 and 4.