I am rigging my results, I omitted it just to create a bias to promote different playstyles. Yes you can use armor reppers, but if you are stacking regen then you are basically trying to turn your armor into shields and might as well just use shields. The whole plus I see of armor is the ability to have protection while stacking damage mods. Yes it is slow and you will just get grenaded, but as you see, you can indeed just stack 2 Armor plates to get the same health and then stack full damage mods, which the Caldari can't do.

Yes he can hide and regen, but thats the whole point of shields, hide and regen. The whole point I see with armor is you kill him so fast he can't regen. And then inbetween battles your logi or your other armor tanker friend both repair each other and move on.

This is true. There are several possible ways to fix the shield vs armor imbalance and honestly I'm not even saying that a heaving leaning toward buffer over reps is an innately better way to fix the armor/shield gap per se. The great part about buffer is that it's a possible fix for the disparity in tanks which also supports the viability of Logi running support/medic fits where as options that create more armor/shield balance by making armor more self-sustaining (as shields are now) tends to reduce the role value of a support/medic Logi.

Re: EDIT, yes those numbers need looked at I'm not a big fan of OHK weapons in general. Some things like a damage mod stacked sniper? Sure fine but things like the contact nades seem really dubious to me. Regardless of the OHK thing in general however, if there are more OHK weapons against one type of tank than another that's a problem.

0.02 ISK
Cross

1. I find issue with your reasoning in this. You go on to say that the armors should be diferent, but then you come down into the next section and say "Well Armor tanks have less HP"

You cannot say, These things must be different, and then try to compare them like they are the same. Using your own example.

2. Feel free to flame me all you want for this next part. I don't have time for PC and do pubs and I never run proto in Pubs. so I haven't looked at my proto fit in awhile. But if I remember correctly the Gal suit gets 3 High/4 Low and vice versa for the Caldari. Your example only shows 2 low slots for the Gallente suit, but all 4 high slots for the Caldari suit.

You are rigging the results to suit your hypothesis. How about showing 210 +115 + 115 + 115 + 115 = 670 if you are going to compare HP levels straight up.


3. And by your own example, those Shield extenders are all in the highs, which means the Caldari cannot fit Damage mods. However the Gallente soldier can fit 3x damage mods. So therefore in a straight up Brawler vs Skirmisher fight, the Armor tanker does more DPS and has alot more health.

4. Of course you can say, But the speed penalty is SOOOO bad. You are correct. However CCP has to balance the ability of the Armor tanker to be the absolute FOTM because having perfect armor and Damage capabilities is BROKEN... So thats why there is both a speed and a PG/CPU issue, to keep that broke situation from occuring. Thats the price for armor tanking.

Assault suit gk.0 EHP- 888

3x damage modifiers
3x complex plates
1x enhanced plate
1x duvolle AR

Damage-54
Armor repair- 0
Shield repair- 25
Speed-3.97 <-- Almost as slow as a heavy

This fit requires maxed engineering skills, and grenades and equipment don't fit.
An actual fit would likely be weaker.

Assault suit gk.0 EHP- 888

3x damage modifiers
3x complex plates
1x enhanced plate
1x duvolle AR

Damage-54
Armor repair- 0
Shield repair- 25
Speed-3.97 <-- Almost as slow as a heavy

Assault suit ck.0 EHP- 773

no damage modifers
2x basic plates
1x repairer
1x duvolle AR

Damage-47
Armor repair-5
Shield repair-31.25
speed-4.72 <--5.6% penalty

Time for the GK.0 to kill CK.0 = 14.3 seconds

Time for the CK.0 to kill GK.0= 18.89 seconds

Now account for the CK.0 being able to outrun the tracking speed of the GK.0, and the ability to repair the damage it is taking against the GK.0 extremely fast, while the GK.0 only does 10 more damage to you, can barely hit you, cannot chase you if you run to take cover and also takes longer for him to take cover, while he cannot also repair his armor. Oh and if the GK.0 removed any of his modules for a repairer his HP will go under that of the CK.0 and his CPU/PG will get capped, so he needs to remove 1 module and downgrade another and thus lead him to lower EHP, lower speed, and overall lower repair.

I think your math is wrong.. I have never pumped bullets into someone for 14 seconds before they die. pretty much everyone dies in about 1, 2 or 3 seconds. This isn't wow where we circle the boss mob and whack a mole all day.

I think your math is wrong.. I have never pumped bullets into someone for 14 seconds before they die. pretty much everyone dies in about 1, 2 or 3 seconds. This isn't wow where we circle the boss mob and whack a mole all day.

Oh boy, its a dog pile. Well hell, I wrote this so I'll be a damned if I'm gonna throw it away.

1. We have to have a baseline. I hesitate to make this assumption but I will say three types of tank exist, speed, armor and shield. Speed tanking is a user skill based tank so it would be impossible to quantify for the purposes of the comparison, if we could I assure you it would be included. Also in many discussions the argument that armor has a higher buffer is made when in fact that is not the truth, take a look at my next number for why.

2. Your are thinking of proto assualt, Proto Gallente is a 3/5 split of high/low and caldari is 5/4. Only 2 slots are used due to those suits requiring a local rep to be effective. You'll find the discussion about outside reps further down the page but most calculations are done within a bubble of a single suit.

3. This argument is based on a suit without local reps. Yes you could have a huge buffer of armor HP but you would be very slow, around 2.5m/s and be unable to repair yourself at any reasonable rate making repeated encounters difficult. It would be a suit with a death clock hanging over its head as every successful battle only brings you closer to death.

4. Of all your statements I find this one to be most insulting, so good job if that was your intention. It is a conclusion based on many half truths. Yes a suit four plates and three damage modifiers would do a lot of damage, however if the enemy strafed you would be unable to apply that damage as the uber-suits turn speed is effected by the movement penalty. As stated before in point 3, an all plated suit is has other penalties associated with it. Namely rep speed. So this suit wouldn't be overpowered. You can add in the fact that a slow target is a easier to hit target and you find the suit to be quiet under powered.

Good post, and I appreciate it, I edited my post before you finished posting this and I will repost it here in case you missed


So yes, I am with you in saying there needs to be fixes, but not just on the armor side either. But its getting better I like your idea of the Death Clock, if a person put on 2 armor plates and all damage and the clock started ticking. It relys on team play and between battle reps. Along with a fix to shield regen delay, I think that would be a good start.

I didn't account for ROF this is if the gun has a ROF of 1, it makes it easier to see the difference in time to kill between both suits.

If I used the actual rate of fire values the time for the GK.0 to kill the CK.0 is 1.14 seconds, and for the CK.0 to kill the GK.0 it is 1.5 seconds. But regardless it doesn't account for the above

Oh no, I could update my post but by then we'll be on page 27.

To your point about team play I think we need to be careful here. Team work should always be a force multiplier but never a requirement. I have said before if we put armor tankers in a only-competitive-if-paired-with-logi category we truly haven't balanced the tanks, we have relegated them to a niche.

So taking that 1.14 and 1.5, what should the penalty be for about a 24% increase in surviveability? Yes he can out run, out track and repair. But the CK.0 needs something to make up for it.

True, but the example was of a Gallente Armor tank using 2 plates to get the same health as a Caldari tanker while having boosted damage. If In a perfect world the armor tanker could fit everything he wanted, he could also fit his remaining low slots with reps to reset the clock if he waited long enough. Therefore making reppers there for more Solo play.

However we have plates which don't reduce movement now right?

I'm not trying to be a **** here, but your 2 plates being equal being an equal buffer to a shield tank is potential balance fantasy correct? As it is shield buffers are often time, although sometimes marginally, higher.

So, a having competitive buffer and higher damage versus buffer and regen would be the balance suggested? If you remove the speed penalties then I think that could begin to work.

I am rigging my results, I omitted it just to create a bias to promote different playstyles. Yes you can use armor reppers, but if you are stacking regen then you are basically trying to turn your armor into shields and might as well just use shields. The whole plus I see of armor is the ability to have protection while stacking damage mods. Yes it is slow and you will just get grenaded, but as you see, you can indeed just stack 2 Armor plates to get the same health and then stack full damage mods, which the Caldari can't do.

Yes he can hide and regen, but thats the whole point of shields, hide and regen. The whole point I see with armor is you kill him so fast he can't regen. And then inbetween battles your logi or your other armor tanker friend both repair each other and move on.

Seriously though the idea that the triple stacked damage mods trump any other option is a bit silly.

Should shields gain their eHP through on board regen while armor is focused on buffer? Sure. That however does not equate to a legitimate reason for dismissing the reps disparity and directly comparing only raw HP totals. The support of a teammate is not a given nor is it a viable way to compare the balance of mods within each tanking line.

While those two armor tankers are repping each other after battle the shield tankers, with their higher base move rate, are already en route to the next tactical objective.

So the whole point of a shield tank is to tank, while the whole point of an armor tank is to fit damage mods?
In essence the drawback to shields is that you can't fit damage mods and the drawback to damage mods is you can't fit shields so armor is useful because it's on a low slot... that doesn't sound like it's balanced that sounds like it's describing the utility of armor mods to a shield tanker. It ignores movement, it ignores profile, it ignores fittings upgrade mods.
It's also assuming that stacked damage mods are the best value for all fittings and roles, but lets get back to fittings.

So the whole point of a shield tank is to tank, while the whole point of an armor tank is to fit damage mods?
In essence the drawback to shields is that you can't fit damage mods and the drawback to damage mods is you can't fit shields so armor is useful because it's on a low slot... that doesn't sound like it's balanced that sounds like it's describing the utility of armor mods to a shield tanker. It ignores movement, it ignores profile, it ignores fittings upgrade mods.
It's also assuming that stacked damage mods are the best value for all fittings and roles, but lets get back to fittings.

0.02 ISK
Cross

I look at it like a progression.

Scouts are fast, they are true skirmish DPS, they cap stuff or they get into your face really fast and blow you away (Speed or Damage)
Assault are DPSers
Shield DPS are Fast, they are mobile, they take more hits then Scouts (Shield Speed Regen)
Armor DPS are Slow, they are powerful, you dont' go toe to toe with them (Damage, Armor)
Heavies are very slow, they are tanks, they sit on the objective and stay alive and keep the enemy away until help comes (Survival, Supression).

If you want profile mods, be a sniper. Every mod has its place.

The problem I see right now is that Scouts aren't scouty enough and Heavies aren't heavy enough. And that shield regen is to high and Armor movement is to low.

Is It? The role of the Assault is like the DPS role in any other MMO. It's to apply Damage and apply it fast. If you wanted to tank damage then you would stack all shields and all armor or roll a Heavy.

If you are defending a location and the enemy is coming, you want to apply damage and apply it fast. So why would damage mods not trump everything. i seem to remember people losing their minds about the old LR and damage mods and how it melted people's faces.



Yes, but you can't just balance on solo play. Watch any pub match, the side that doesn't play as a team gets ROFLstomp Redlined almost immedaitely. its how the game works. The point is that 1v1 with alittle distance and no cover, the armor tank will wreck the shield tank and there should be some downside to that. And that the shield tank is more mobile is the downside, just like the scout can't stand up to the Assault, but the scout is faster. and can do the same things you have said. Should we ban the scout class?



Looking back to MMOs, you have Melee DPS and Kiting DPS (Kiting means to skirmish). Given again the job of Assault is to apply DPS, Shields with their regenitive nature are all about Skirmishing, you attack, you fall back, Attack, you are highly mobile. They are best used against people with NO REGEN because that is the nature of Skirmishing. if you attack and fall back and they just regen, you gain nothing.

Armor PLATES. HEAVY PLATES you wrap around your body, they make you slow. but in return you carry more firepower. So yes, you should have a higher EHP, no regen (Because really. Repairing an armor plate in 3 seconds? It can take hours and days at a repair shop). But you deal more damage and are more stationary. Just like a Heavy.

[ And that's where the problem is.
We aren't powerful enough to be feared in toe to toe combat.
Shields trump us, and those damage mods don't do a lot if they can just evade it all thanks to their superior strafe speed.

Is It? The role of the Assault is like the DPS role in any other MMO. It's to apply Damage and apply it fast. If you wanted to tank damage then you would stack all shields and all armor or roll a Heavy.

If you are defending a location and the enemy is coming, you want to apply damage and apply it fast. So why would damage mods not trump everything. i seem to remember people losing their minds about the old LR and damage mods and how it melted people's faces.

Yes, but you can't just balance on solo play. Watch any pub match, the side that doesn't play as a team gets ROFLstomp Redlined almost immediately. its how the game works. The point is that 1v1 with alittle distance and no cover, the armor tank will wreck the shield tank and there should be some downside to that. And that the shield tank is more mobile is the downside, just like the scout can't stand up to the Assault, but the scout is faster. and can do the same things you have said. Should we ban the scout class?

Looking back to MMOs, you have Melee DPS and Kiting DPS (Kiting means to skirmish). Given again the job of Assault is to apply DPS, Shields with their regenitive nature are all about Skirmishing, you attack, you fall back, Attack, you are highly mobile. They are best used against people with NO REGEN because that is the nature of Skirmishing. if you attack and fall back and they just regen, you gain nothing.

Armor PLATES. HEAVY PLATES you wrap around your body, they make you slow. but in return you carry more firepower. So yes, you should have a higher EHP, no regen (Because really. Repairing an armor plate in 3 seconds? It can take hours and days at a repair shop). But you deal more damage and are more stationary. Just like a Heavy.

It's important not to confuse raw/buffer HP with eHP (effective hit points).
HP is a static total, your actual listed HP. eHP is the dynamic accounting which looks at things like regen, reps, and resists/damage efficiency.
As such armor and shields should have equal eHP. Shields gain that through regen armor through raw/buffer HP.

Those are all play style choices and play style should dictate tank choice not vice versa. What I mean here is that if armor are just more or less "immobile" with purportedly high dps then what value do they have? Anyone with a little sense will use long range weapons to take them out in perfect safty. Are they all inside a building safe from snipers surrounding an objective? So what? Let them camp there while the rest of the map is taken and they lose anyway.

As a redirect, I posted fittings in the post you were responding to, I'd very much like a reaction to them. If you can make better ones that more heavily favor the armor tank then by all means do so but at present the shield tanked suit comes out ahead as long as it's user doesn't simply stand in the open and shoot, a behavior which even an armor tanked heavy shouldn't reasonably expect to survive in the current version of the game.

My 2 isk

As per [P2] I can accept that concept of armor or shield tanking. More to the point I think people should be put into a role/style based on HP type. You decide the type based on the role you want.

As many have stated - armor does not provide enough bonuses to compensate for the penalties. Add to that the majority of weapons are more effective against armor - armor tankers are effectively even with shield tankers (maybe a tad lower on ehp scale) then shield tankers.

Recent armor items are actually more effective for shield tankers. I would know as I am one. Amarr assault with scrambler, 1 regulator, 2 complex reppers. One of those complex reppers has been switched out for Feroscale. I have more armor at no hit to my shield.

Recommendation - small reduction in plate speed penalty. As they get better they should be more hp/speed efficient. I think reactive plates should have their rep speed reduced slightly and their movement penalty reduced. Their effective HP seems fine if this is done. Ferroscale should match shields. A complex ferro being 66 HP. They would be the 'armor varient' for tanking.

Now - one of the advantages to armor tanking is being able to equip damage mods - so is that fair? I believe so as armor takes more damage from weapons in general than shield.


This way armor tankers can go either heavy armor (plates but reduced speed) or ferro for the same HP and speed as shield tankers - but taking more overall damage to compensate for their use of damage mods.

Of the above proposals I think I that the only critical one is that armor plates have movement penalty reduced.

Finally - CPU PG costs of plates should be reviewed.

My 2 isk.