DUST Search - [Feedback] Shields > Armour GÇô A continued imbalance

Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:

I have done all of the numbers without applying skills simply for mathematical simplicity. Using the higher values changes nothing really. It makes the gap slightly wider between shields and armour, but it doesn't matter. I haven't used the skills applied numbers for armour plates either - I have, however, used the skills applied numbers for shield regeneration and armour repairers.

The argument that a straight buff to armour HP is bad because shield tankers will use it is invalid because armour tankers can equally use shield extenders.

If you're going to go down the route of making armour plates only good on armour tanking suits it should be a role bonus rather than a racial bonus, because otherwise newbies get screwed over.
PG modules in high slots would make more sense.
Flat armour plate reduction - Agreed.
I think tweaking the explosive to be in line with the EM is the best solution - it should still be more effective than solid ammunition weapons against armour but it shouldn't be so effective that it wrecks armour with even glancing hits.

Armor plate numbers I somewhat agree but you've effectively nerfed the lower tier so that the progression can look better with those numbers.
I think ferroscale plates should actually beat extenders in HP, but only slightly. This is because you still need to sacrifice for repairers on armour suits.

Definitely agreed with plate/rep comboes competing with reactive plates. If they both had different numbers so they were useful in different situations - reactive plates giving more HP but less rep or vice versa, as suggested in the OP - they would be more useful and balanced.
It doesn't help that currently the plate/rep combo simply blows reactives out of the water.


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ZDub 303 TeamPlayers EoN. 385	Posted - 2013.06.17 15:18:00 - [1] - Quote Great post.. except your numbers are wrong: You should take into account the passive 10% from armor plates and shield extension, as you need both to run complex. Also take into account Caldari Logistics 25% to shield extenders, and Caldari Assault 25% to passive regen. Caldari Assault is 31.25 hp/s regen (at level 5, but use max out for balance discussions), you use 25 hp/s in some instances. Complex Shield Extenders give 72hp not 66hp (there is actually no way to get less than 72hp from a complex extender right? Cause shield extension has to be level 5) Complex Armor Plates give 126.5hp not 115hp. Caldari Logistics Complex Shield Extender gives 90hp. Also, posted from another thread. While I do agree that armor plates probably need a buff to their hp you also can't just straight buff them, or shield tankers get a pretty beastly advantage too. We absolutely need a Gallente racial passive that reduces armor speed penalty by ~15% per level. This is pretty much the only way you can truly balance armor tanking. Also agree with the other sentiments here: PG in high slots (with no CPU penalty) Flat % armor plate reduction ~4-6% Explosives are too effective against armor. I would like to see 85/115 probably, maybe even 90/110, as the damage is so high, any bonus effects the alpha on a locus grenade by a lot. My thoughts: Armor plates and shield extenders should follow a 1x,2x,3x pattern, so extenders 22-44-66 and armor plates something like 44-88-132. Ferroscale plates should match extenders in hp. The balance between reactive plates need a rework... as it stands reactive plates and armor reps will always compete against each other, and one set (1 Armor Plate + 1 Armor Rep vs 2 Reactive Plates) will always be better than the other. I do seriously believe at this point that armor reps or reactive plates need to move to the high slot, so that they don't compete.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers EoN. 385	Posted - 2013.06.17 16:01:00 - [2] - Quote Master Jaraiya wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: We absolutely need a Gallente racial passive that reduces armor speed penalty by ~15% per level. This is pretty much the only way you can truly balance armor tanking. The shield vs. armor disparity effects all races and classes. This would do absolutely nothing to balance shield vs armor in anything but Gallente Medium Class True, but its the first, very necessary, step in armor/shield balancing. The armor modules then need rebalancing between tiers as well. Amarr need their base speed brought up to Gallente/Caldari level. They are hybrid tanks, so should still have armor penalty, but shouldn't start at a base speed lower than Gallente.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers EoN. 385	Posted - 2013.06.17 16:59:00 - [3] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: I have done all of the numbers without applying skills simply for mathematical simplicity. Using the higher values changes nothing really. It makes the gap slightly wider between shields and armour, but it doesn't matter. I haven't used the skills applied numbers for armour plates either - I have, however, used the skills applied numbers for shield regeneration and armour repairers. The argument that a straight buff to armour HP is bad because shield tankers will use it is invalid because armour tankers can equally use shield extenders. If you're going to go down the route of making armour plates only good on armour tanking suits it should be a role bonus rather than a racial bonus, because otherwise newbies get screwed over. PG modules in high slots would make more sense. Flat armour plate reduction - Agreed. I think tweaking the explosive to be in line with the EM is the best solution - it should still be more effective than solid ammunition weapons against armour but it shouldn't be so effective that it wrecks armour with even glancing hits. Armor plate numbers I somewhat agree but you've effectively nerfed the lower tier so that the progression can look better with those numbers. I think ferroscale plates should actually beat extenders in HP, but only slightly. This is because you still need to sacrifice for repairers on armour suits. Definitely agreed with plate/rep comboes competing with reactive plates. If they both had different numbers so they were useful in different situations - reactive plates giving more HP but less rep or vice versa, as suggested in the OP - they would be more useful and balanced. It doesn't help that currently the plate/rep combo simply blows reactives out of the water. Sure thing, I'm not saying the numbers for armor plates are correct, just that simply changing armor values alone is only part of the solution. Or we move away from move speed penalties entirely. Sprint speed and stamina penalties can also achieve the same slow down effect, and then armor can stack away. It might make more sense tbh. And stamina penalty would also be in line with a profile penalty. Its not totally a brush off penalty but its not gamebreaking either. I don't mind nerf basic plates to smooth out progression, basic shield extenders are practically worthless at 22hp, but basic plates are quite powerful at 65hp.