+1. Yeah. A lot of this comes from separating the posts as I did - the issues link together to create bigger problems all over.
I covered how much more difficult it was for armour tankers to get away in penalties. I think I'll emphasise this as per your recommendation and add some more stuff to the explanation of the flux grenade vs locus grenade.

I'll add a bit more on the importance of mobility as well.

Good catch on the PG thing! I'm particularly happy with you spotting that because it means you read the thing through. Thanks!

where is the preface?


i read the entire thread (yes the whole thing). but, what was going through my mind (and i couldnt help think it), is that all those penalties you described are a heavy suit, without any mods, armor, etc .

those penalties make armor tanking really bad in comparison to shield tanking, and yet are markedly unbaised as those are the actually numbers. nonetheless, the heavy suit itself has all those downsides before it even puts on a single plate...lol

We absolutely need a Gallente racial passive that reduces armor speed penalty by ~15% per level. This is pretty much the only way you can truly balance armor tanking.

I need to do a real read of this whole thread, but while I'm getting to that I do want to make one statement out of the gate.

Reactive plates should be moved to a High Power Slot this instantly breaks the deadlock between then and the standard plate + rep fittings question providing more diversity in options and also serves to ameliorate some degree of the shield/armor division.

Also as others in this thread have said we need some armor specific racial skills. Gallente and Amarr are armor tanking races (yes this is EVE lore, but it's also maintained in dust stats, just weakly) and should be getting racial bonuses to support that. Giving such bonuses would make armor taking balance more attainable (provide active buffs for one race and passive buffs for the other, then you have build diversity as well).

Cheers,
Cross

While simply moving Reactive Plates to High Slots wouldn't solve all the problems, I think it would help more than you're giving them credit for. By freeing up a Low Slot, an Armor user could use a CPU/PG module without feeling like they're giving up a dedicated portion of their survival.

By taking say, 1-2 Reactive Plates and 1 Damage Mod as High Slot choices, with 1-2 Plates, a Repper and a CPU/PG mod as needed, the Armor user would be given a better option than simply stacking their Low Slots and hopeing for the best.

To be honest I don't think that's an actual possibility, no one is required to use the new plates, the old/current armor rep options still provide for these same options via low slots so all moving it to the high power slot does is create options for differing fittings.


I'm only suggesting one specific type of mod be placed there not a migration in general, further your statement assumes that everyone runs damage mods which is untrue. Not everyone runs damage mods nor is doing so required to preform well. I've run squads that placed top of the match with no mods between us and I know Assaulters who've been in the top 20 during closed beta that didn't run a single mod (and still don't on their primary fittings, AV notwithstanding).

All of that aside I have to reiterate that it is an option not a requirement so it doesn't cost anyone anything just allows for a more diverse pallet from which to draw possible fittings configurations.

I doubt that the Reactive Plates would be the sole source of tank when placed in a high slot. Depending on the suit they may not even be the primary source of tank but that doesn't mean they wouldn't be useful. Two of them would nearly equal a proto repper, plus provides more buffer (assuming current stats). Even fitting only a single reactive could give fits that would otherwise lack all native rep some mild form of self rep, I know some Heavies which would include this in their fits.

This also provides a bit more balance between shields and armor by putting a mod on the table which takes the same slot as primary shield tank mods. Would this fix armor vs shield tank balance? Absolutely not, but it could contribute to a fix. As long as Shield tanking takes high slots and armor is purely low slots then all buffs to armor direct mods are going to fall sort of providing balance because shield tankers can still 'cheery pick' whatever aspects they want without giving up any of their primary tank. Choices aren't meaningful when they cost nothing.

I'm sure reactive plates in the high slots wouldn't work for every fit but honestly that's partly the point and they most certainly would be used I know Mercs who would use them and I would use them on some fits.

Cheers,
Cross

I have not done extensive testing with the Heavy but based on what I have done and on the feedback of Heavies I play with I'm of the opinion that the Sentinel needs a bit of polish the entire question of the reactive plates aside. So while I feel for some Heavy builds it would still be useful (FG in over watch for example), I do see how in most cases it wouldn't have broader utility for the Sentinel suit without a rework.

Presuming your suggestion (seen via link) were adopted then having all shield and all armor mods segregated would make sense, most specifically due to the Upgrade mods no longer being in a zero sum relationship with armor tanking mods (part of the impetus for my suggestion, which is also meant to include having a PG mod in a high slot, again assuming current config).

There are some other suits with limited high slots and placing a reactive would be a limitation on stacking damage mods in such configurations if one were to run the reactive plates however that's assuming builds that are gank fit. And while those builds are viable they are not the only viable method as I know both Assaults and Logis who run full tank fits at present (generally stacked towards shields due to the advantage there). I know almost no scouts who run armor tank due to speed but they wouldn't be looking much at the reactive plates anyway for the very same reason, which leaves the heavy.

There's a whole lot that could/would go into this but I've been trying to keep my comments confined to the mods themselves, which I suppose may have painted an incomplete picture. In either case thank you for conducting a resonable conversation on the issue and I look forward to more in the future.

Cheers,
Cross

I guess it does help a bit. I'm concerned that the tanks you'd get from dedicating all your slots to it would be too strong, but then you get a very large speed penalty...
It's not a great thing for heavies, but reactive plates were never going to help heavies that much anyway. I think heavies need their own love, more so than just armour tanking tweaks.
It's an interesting idea, even if it's difficult to balance properly. It definitely makes reactive plates have more of a role, and so I'm going to add this to P12.

I am still bit fuzzy as to how adding Reactives to Highs would help, as armor tanks we have very low High slots so we wouldn't really benefit much from this. Since we are opting out shields for the same/lower HP in armor with a speed penalty and around 6/7.5 armor regen, in reality we would actually end up weaker, lower HP and lower speed, than if we used shields and armor/rep combo.

Also it actually makes it easier for shield tanks to dual tank by giving them the option of slightly removing the shield dependency and opting for reactive plates without affecting their low slot usage, while at the same time putting a higher dependence on armor suits on armor and force focusing even more slots into armor instead of other useful modules and in the end would just lead to armor suits being a lot slower and a lot weaker than they are now and more susceptible to explosive damage.

When you're saying it forces armor tanks to be more armor dependent I'm not sure where that's coming from

As I see it the value of the Reactive moved to a High is situational on a fit by fit basis. As such it provides a piece of the flexibility needed but only a piece.

The internal balance of armor mods still needs to be looked at, the average cost of shield and armor fittings needs to be addressed,

And even at that threshold I'd honestly give a serious eye to altering the numbers on both reactives and ferro, but that's a lot of changes at once and pretty sweeping and I'm wary of sweeping changes they have this tendency to hold hidden problems.

I'll do a more through review on your numbers, but without even bringing specific numbers into it there is a basic problem with the reactive plates which needs to be answered. Namely what do they do? I'll elaborate; right now the reactive provides a mixture of buffer and reps with a speed debuff. This is the same thing that current plates + reps provide which puts them in direct competition since they use the same slots and are buffed by the same skills et al.

To answer your question what do they do They offer a trade off of HP/Reps for more movement speed. They (are supposed to) offer armor tankers a compromise between less overall HP and less regen, but more movement speed than they would with the standard plate + reps. To the extent that 1 Reactives = more movement and less but close to the same HP+Reps than 1 Standard Plate + 1 Rep. So although they wouldn't have as much HP or reps, they could move out of harms way faster, while still having some HP and some Reps. I don't think they would necessarily be in competition because the amount of movement speed the Reactive Plates should allow would be significant enough to warrant their use over simple plates+reps for those armor tankers who do not want to be slowed down so much. I do think the DEVs will have to adjust the numbers on all the reps and plates to make the Reactives regardless of what slot they are assigned to.