Seeing a dot show up on screen doesnGÇÖt make you easier to hit like being slow like a heavy does.
Sure, you can anticipate them, but they can anticipate you too.
See, the way scanning mechanics work right now is this:
If you have line of sight, they shown up.
If you use a scanner, they show up.
As far as I know, passive scanning is useless garbage, it almost never works.
Active scanners detect everyone, even scouts (Except for Gallente scout, unless its a high level scanner), so giving them a sig radius penalty wonGÇÖt do a thing.
Unless armor tankers donGÇÖt show up on the active scanner, but then you make the thing bad.

This fix is supposed to make shields and armor have unique roles.


Please read GÇ£[P2] Roles of shield and armourGÇ¥, where the roles of shield and armor are covered.


Here are the list of things done, I will then expand on each:
-All plates HP increased by 2x
-Plates movement penalties changed to 5/7.5/10
-Armor reps changed to 5/7.5/10
-Armor reps now have a unique mechanic
-Gallente suits are given an inherent 5hp/s regeneration, helping lower level armor tanking


You might see the 2x HP increase and think GÇ£WTFGÇ¥, and I expected that.
But see, armor is supposed to have much higher HP than shields do, but because we need to use half our slots for reps, the HP gained is lost, while still having less reps.


But then you think GÇ£But didnGÇÖt you just increase reps amount?GÇ¥, and thatGÇÖs true, but hear me out on this.
This is the main part of the idea:
If you read the Roles of shield and armor part, then you would know that shields are skirmishers, they dictate their range, get out of battle, regenerate quickly and come back.
Armor is a brawler, taking a good punch while dealing lots of damage and regenerating under fire, but need repair tools to repair properly outside of battle.
Armor is also slow, which means it canGÇÖt dictate range, and canGÇÖt run out of battle as quickly, and its a very easy target.
Also has problems with power projection, taking time to respond to enemies taking your objectives, or teammates need help.
So taking this into consideration, I have got an idea to solidify the armor tanking role.
When you take damage from an enemy (not just any damage, like fall damage), your reps work at 100%.
The longer time has passed from the last time you took damage, the slower your reps work, down to 25% at the lowest level.
It goes like this:
0-5 seconds = 100%
5-10 seconds = 75%
10-15 seconds = 50%
15 seconds and beyond = 25%


The basic and enhanced plates penalty has been increased, because in its current form, the penalty rises very disproportionately to the HP gained.
This fixes the problem, making complex plates worthwhile.


New plates numbers:
Basic plate = 130HP, -5% speed
Enhanced plate = 174HP - 7.5% speed
Complex plate = 230HP - 10% speed


Some numbers.
Gallente Assault:
210 Armor HP + 230HP + 230HP (2x Complex plates) = 670 HP
The other two slots are used for armor repairers, and in addition to the inherent rep speed this turns into 25hp/s of regeneration at the first 5 seconds you take damage.
After 15 seconds this rep drops to 25%, putting it at 6.25, which is painfully slow.

Excellent post. +1

I would add something to P5:

Although you iterated on this when discussing the Flux Grenade, I feel you should go more in depth in the comparison between how easy it is for shield tank suits to quickly escape combat and quickly recharge Shields vs how difficult it is for armor tank suits to escape and slowly recharge shields.


When shield tanks lose their shields, they run for cover, and more often than not begin recharging even before an armor tanker can close the distance them to finish them off. Then the shield tanker almost immediately comes back out ready for round 2. Meanwhile the armor tanker has the exact same amount of armor(no repairers) or very little more than before the shield tanker took cover, and likely hasn't started even recharging shields as he is armor tanked. Then must face the newly reemerged shield tanker with a significant amount less hp.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, when an armor tanker has lost a significant portion of armor, he must (attempt)
to flee either
a) completely, and find a logistics to repair or supply depot to refit in order to recover hp (if using only plates)

or
b)for an extended period of time to allow his much slower acting armor repairer to recover hp.

alternatively, and more frequently the end result, the armor tanker dies while trying to escape to cover because of their extremely slow speed, or he makes it to cover, but the shield tanker closes the distance faster than hp can be recovered, and makes the kill.

In either of these scenarios, the shield tanker wins the battle, and obtains control of the objective.

Also an EDIT (i'm splitting hairs here) line 4 of P6 should be edited to state "1 more unit of PG"

Good post. You might want to explicitly state that the move penalties on plates effect strafe speed as well.

Great thread!
Just an addition to P5 and P8, here are the numbers for Speed Reduction (SR) % -to- Armor HP: ratio.

______________________HP____SR____SR -per- 1 HP
Basic Armor Plates_______65_____3%___0.046%
Advanced Armor Plates____85_____5%___0.059%
Complex Armor Plates____115____10%__0.087%

Basic Reactive Plates_____15_____1%___0.067%
Advanced Reactive Plates__25____2%___0.08%
Complex Reactive Plates___45____4%___0.089%

While you've covered the fact that the Speed Reduction scale is not proportionate to the benefits, it's a good visual to see that Complex Armor Plates have almost twice as much Speed Reduction per-HP than the Basic Armor Plates do. The Reactive Plates, across the board, have worse ratio's than any of the Armor Plates underlining the fact that they are less desirable than Plates + Reppers.

So I'm new to these forums but not the game and my question is, What can I do to draw attention to this thread?

where is the preface?


i read the entire thread (yes the whole thing). but, what was going through my mind (and i couldnt help think it), is that all those penalties you described are a heavy suit, without any mods, armor, etc .

those penalties make armor tanking really bad in comparison to shield tanking, and yet are markedly unbaised as those are the actually numbers. nonetheless, the heavy suit itself has all those downsides before it even puts on a single plate...lol

While that's true it must be noted that both types of Tanking have already developed their own identities.

Armour is already considered the brawler type, while shield the skirmishers. You are right no one should be forced into a playstyle but I think the distinction between the two types must be made otherwise there is no point in having two.

Armour fits my playstyle well I like to be right in the middle of things with the bullets flying, tanks driving by, etc. I feel that Armour should better facilitate the brawlers amongst us, while shields the more mobile and hit and run players.

^^the idea is that the particular efficiency of one armor over their other should suppliment a players playstyle rather than dictate

Awesome thread, need to be seen by CCP.

A little idea for armor tanking love: since shields have a low slot module buffing them (shield regulators) why don't give armor a high slot module? Reactive Nano Membrane, high slot module that increase armor resistance to damage.

I like how everyone in this game plays solo and then complains about imbalance. I've played logi, I've played logi following behind protoheavy with all plates and damage mods. I've played Logi with a heavy who RDVd his own car to get around places so he wasn't so slow.

Armor plates are for team play, Also the OP mentioned that the repair tool sucks because the logi can't use his gun. There are a number of situations where you want your logi out of LOS healing and keeping up resupply, rez and Uplinks. Also when you rez somone with the proto needle when they are armor tanking, then you get fun results when the enemy has to bring down that fatty again.

Make some friends, I am an extremely unlikeable guy and I have friends to play with. It's not hard, just say "hi" to people. And when they invite you to play with them, then say things like "Good Job" and "Thanks" rather then. "OMG I SCORED MORE KILLS THEN YOU ROFLLOL HAHAHAHAHA FAIL LOSER"

Then maybe we won't get more threads saying, OMG armor fail..

Great post.. except your numbers are wrong:

You should take into account the passive 10% from armor plates and shield extension, as you need both to run complex.
Also take into account Caldari Logistics 25% to shield extenders, and Caldari Assault 25% to passive regen.

Caldari Assault is 31.25 hp/s regen (at level 5, but use max out for balance discussions), you use 25 hp/s in some instances.

Complex Shield Extenders give 72hp not 66hp (there is actually no way to get less than 72hp from a complex extender right? Cause shield extension has to be level 5)

Complex Armor Plates give 126.5hp not 115hp.

Caldari Logistics Complex Shield Extender gives 90hp.

Also, posted from another thread.

While I do agree that armor plates probably need a buff to their hp you also can't just straight buff them, or shield tankers get a pretty beastly advantage too.

We absolutely need a Gallente racial passive that reduces armor speed penalty by ~15% per level. This is pretty much the only way you can truly balance armor tanking.

Also agree with the other sentiments here:
PG in high slots (with no CPU penalty)
Flat % armor plate reduction ~4-6%
Explosives are too effective against armor. I would like to see 85/115 probably, maybe even 90/110, as the damage is so high, any bonus effects the alpha on a locus grenade by a lot.

My thoughts:
Armor plates and shield extenders should follow a 1x,2x,3x pattern, so extenders 22-44-66 and armor plates something like 44-88-132.
Ferroscale plates should match extenders in hp.

The balance between reactive plates need a rework... as it stands reactive plates and armor reps will always compete against each other, and one set (1 Armor Plate + 1 Armor Rep vs 2 Reactive Plates) will always be better than the other. I do seriously believe at this point that armor reps or reactive plates need to move to the high slot, so that they don't compete.

That said, I would also like to see implementation of the racial flavorings where Amarr suits favor plates and buffer but Gallente favor armor regeneration. I really don't understand why CCP have made Minmatar/Caldari Shield, Gallente Armor, and Amarr "both"?

I agree here wholeheartedly. For starters, Ferroscale Plating.

They offer LESS HP than equivalent shield extenders, have high fitting requirements, and remove the armor speed penalty entirely (which shields don't have to deal with for one). Considering shields come with a very high natural regeneration rate, and the Ferroscale plates DEMAND an armor repairer (for abysmal recharge), this is an important thing to note. We are getting rid of our armor tank's greatest drawback, at the cost of being just a statistically worse version of a shield extender. A Ferroscale plate should offer ~75 armor at the complex level, giving it a slight edge over shields in RAW EHP. However the armor tanker will still have to spend one or two slots dedicated to armor repair modules, which will not only cut down on overall tank but also eliminate a significant amount of buffer.

I have a feeling CCP was attempting to balance these under the assumption people would be using these plates bare with a dedicated logistics running around and repping you in combat. Which is nice in theory but is just not in practice.

-stuff on reactive plates-

Shields still get higher buffer, and double the regeneration, all without the movement penalty. There is no clear area where armor tanks can say "We've got you, there!" so my suggestion alone may not be quite enough. Perhaps reducing the movement penalty from 4% to 3% as well (making 3 plates give a 9% penalty instead of 12%) would help? Although that's only making it better than it currently is, and not giving it a clear role on the battlefield, let alone being comparable to shields.

At the same time, this brings me to my previous point that Gallente should favor active armor and Amarr passive buffer. The Gallente Assault suit should be getting a LOCAL armor repair bonus. The problem is that while this may make Gallente Armor tanks a very viable thing, it would NOT fix the core problems with armor. There certainly are a lot of things and situations to consider, eh?

well, if it isn't flaylocks its SMGs that in close range dessimate armor.. both are better on armor. but its not the flaylocks fault most close range encounters happen after both players get too close after charging each other (normally with ARs), so the secondary that does massive damage to armor is noticeable when shields are down.

the flaylock is a close range weapon that is an explosive with the least blast radius and damage of all explosives in the game. if it didnt work it'd be pointless, it actually needs a slight buff. it takes arm to use it, and the hit dectetion even makes that a 50/50.

And about the flaylock pistol



https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=87797

Flaylock stats:
Basic
Direct: 218 <--- Enough damage to 4 shot me at full HP
Splash: 195
Clip size: 3 <-- 4 as a Minmatar assault
Max ammo: 21
Reload 2.5

Basic (LVL 5 side arm skills)
Direct: 250
Splash: 224
Clip size: 3
Max ammo: 26
Reload: 2.125

Core flaylock pistol (LVL 5 side arm skills)
Direct: 276 <--- Enough to kill a heavy with no shields in 2-3 shots
Splash: 246
Clip size: 3
Max ammo: 26
Reload: 2.125

Flaylock pistols also have a range of 60M, although very difficult to use at 60M if you aim high enough you can shoot anybody at any distance with it.

You guys sure armor is at a disadvantage?
I saw a DJINN running a Gal Logi, that just won't die, earlier today.

Took a ridiculously concerted effort to kill him... with a full-auto Duvolle AR.
Seems to me that guy had armor down to an art form. Maybe some people are just building armor fits poorly?

Tagged and Forwarding.

Basically its an attempt to cover bases that Dust 514's community "might" have missed.

Most of the time the reports catches about everything of notice but I am just making sure threads like these are at least brought forward before the report makes it out.

because when people write in all caps they must be telling the truth.... they took out the time to put it in all caps.

I'm only suggesting one specific type of mod be placed there not a migration in general, further your statement assumes that everyone runs damage mods which is untrue. Not everyone runs damage mods nor is doing so required to preform well. I've run squads that placed top of the match with no mods between us and I know Assaulters who've been in the top 20 during closed beta that didn't run a single mod (and still don't on their primary fittings, AV notwithstanding).

All of that aside I have to reiterate that it is an option not a requirement so it doesn't cost anyone anything just allows for a more diverse pallet from which to draw possible fittings configurations.

I doubt that the Reactive Plates would be the sole source of tank when placed in a high slot. Depending on the suit they may not even be the primary source of tank but that doesn't mean they wouldn't be useful. Two of them would nearly equal a proto repper, plus provides more buffer (assuming current stats). Even fitting only a single reactive could give fits that would otherwise lack all native rep some mild form of self rep, I know some Heavies which would include this in their fits.

This also provides a bit more balance between shields and armor by putting a mod on the table which takes the same slot as primary shield tank mods. Would this fix armor vs shield tank balance? Absolutely not, but it could contribute to a fix. As long as Shield tanking takes high slots and armor is purely low slots then all buffs to armor direct mods are going to fall sort of providing balance because shield tankers can still 'cheery pick' whatever aspects they want without giving up any of their primary tank. Choices aren't meaningful when they cost nothing.

I'm sure reactive plates in the high slots wouldn't work for every fit but honestly that's partly the point and they most certainly would be used I know Mercs who would use them and I would use them on some fits.

Cheers,
Cross

While Im in favour of your arguments.

My concern is the dual tanking would confer an advantage that would out weigh the need for other modules, specifically damage mods. Especially since thier are shield regen bonuses on Assault suits.

Could I ask that you have a look at duel tanking in relation to your suggestions and see if dual tanking would create a situation were that strategy become overly optimal.

Kinda why I quit posting. For all the lip service CCP pays to listening to the community, when it comes to anything more specific than "X is OP Nerf immediately!" they completely ignore any well thought out recommendations made.

No they claim to read and pay attention to it then go and pull a complete 180, implementing something that makes no logical sense whatsoever.

IE: Enforcer Tanks

What are you doing on page three? Did CCP fix the issue?

another thread by a person who doesn't understand how logistics gives the armour class an advantage. this is my surprised face.

kinda sucks being an amarr armor assault tank were already the slowest every day im regretting that i didn't choose gallente back in close beta

CCP did a smart thing and with the new armor plates that are dropping july 2nd, the amarr n gallente suites will b much more competitive options

Shield Energizer? What is this I see?

What's their stated purpose, I can't see any mention of that in the blog, do you have a link?

link?

The Ferroscale Plates are basically equivalent to shield extenders....except they don't benefit from passive recharge of course so they have to make room for reppers so only hald as effective as shield extenders. CCP am I missing something or are you?

Not the enhanced.

Shield Energizers would be useful for Caldari Proto Logi since they can have 660hp shield tanks with only 20hp/sec recharge, which would take forever. This mod could bring buffer and recharge more into balance, assuming there's a reason to use it instead of the current Shield Recharger mods. The reason is probably either lower fitting costs or better recharge bonus.

Pretty much, tho I'm of the opinion that "F" should be "put Reactive Plates in high slots", but it seems I may be in the minority with regards to this.

Armor repairers are already in low slots. Typo?

That would be in keeping with the Shield Upgrades bonus. I bet that's the case.

any idea on the stats of the armor modules?

I meant if they made any changes to those stats

I would also like to point out (if you missed it I'm not sure) that the CPU enhancers take no CPU/PG to fit while PG enhancer modules take a nice but of CPU.

P.S. CCP will forever favor Caldari/Shields.

I think it will be a bad idea for armor repairs to be in a high slot cause that will hurt armarr dual tanking abilities cause then they have to choose between extenders or armor repair which will make them worse then gallente and caldari.
Reactive plates in the highs are better so Gallente can easily buff there total armor and regeneration.

I wish i had the time to reas every single post and page in this thread, as it stands i have got the first page completed and I must say that I am in complete support to the OP save where he specified galentte instead of galentte and amarr suits (which often armour tank as well in my experience.

That's some exhaustive work on the matter OP, thanks for that. I completely agree that armor tanking needs to be brought in line with shield tanking. Still I'd like to add some points I think you missed in your write up and that tilt the balance a bit in favor of armor:

• precision enhancers are actually high slot modules, not low slot

Good catch, I'll edit this in.


• damage modules use less PG and more CPU than shield extenders, so they can be fitted much easier by an armor tank and are much harder to fit on shield tanks when it comes to CPU/PG usage.

The CPU usage is significantly higher and the PG usage marginally lower, so overall they're more difficult to fit.


• CCP acknowledged that shield recharge timers currently don't work as intended. It seems they should be reset to 0 every time a bullet hits you.

Indeed. This is a good thing.


• there are triage nano hives that can regenerate armor. The advanced one (affordable by any one) is healing 20 HP/s, while the prototype one heals 70 HP/s.

I find triage nanohives rather meh.On one hand, they can heal a fair bit, but on the other, they're severely limited by ammo constraints, are stationary, destructible, and require quite significant investment to unlock and fit. They also seem to run out very very quickly.


• repair tools are actually much more effective than shield regeneration: the triage tool heals 41 HP/s (again affordable by everyone fitting and isk wise), and the prototype focused rep tool heals an insane 105 HP/s.

Assuming some investment, as opposed to having powerful regeneration at base. They also require another player, though this encourages teamwork and is a good thing.

When attempting to rebalance armor, everyone should keep the existence of triage hives and rep tools in mind. Otherwise we might end up with a Gallente heavy, stacking armor plates in the lows and having insane amounts of HP, while being repped for 175 HP/s by a logi and his triage hive/rep tool. It's an edge case, of course, but I think good balancing should account for edge cases, too.

That really is an edge case. Remember that if you're using triage nanohives it locks you to a certain location, and they run out very quickly. While those numbers look good on paper, a proper assault would either kill the logistics player or force them off the triage nanohive at the very least. Additionally, weapon dps can exceed those repairs, especially if two people are firing.

Also about racial armor tanking boni: I think they are important when discussing balance. The reality is, caldari suits already have strong shield tank boni, while Gallente suits lack any bonus to armor tanking. For example logi suits: shield recharge 25 on Cal vs 15 on Gal. I'm saying this because in your comparison, you usually use numbers that are taken from suits designed for shield tanking, and so those numbers already have a racial bonus applied to them (when compared to the same numbers on suits.that are designed for armor tanking).

Yes, they are quite important. I haven't touched on them much because they're one of the few things which will apparently get fixed.
As a side note, only one part of my shield regen number set (the assault) accounts for that bonus.

And I feel when you discuss the lower strafe speed of armor, you should mention that the armor tank has a higher damage output due to damage mods in the high slots. I think in a 1 vs 1 situation, higher damage makes up for lower strafe speed. With a 20% damage bonus, you need 20% less time to take down you opponent. Putting it another way, you effectively reduce the total HP of your opponent by 20%, which is very significant.

This assumes that you hit your opponent every time, which is never the case.
Additionally, shoving on a shield extender in place of the damage module is more beneficial - I don't have the numbers off the top of my head, but someone calculated that a complex shield extender does more for you than a complex damage module even if both people are hitting 100% of their shots.

Guys, I did not argue that rep tools or triage hives are the saving grace for armor tanking. There is no need to explain again why armor tanking is inferior to shield tanking, we have all come to that conclusion already.

If they have not responded to it, it is because they donGÇÖt want to corrupt a very good discussion with people who see blue and start pursuing their own private agendas.

So what's the verdict?

Ferro doesn't add competitive HP and cost more fitting-wise then plates?
Reactives cost a very high amount fitting and in trying to do two modules work do neither well enough?

I think we're being trolled.
The fact is, I want to play this game. I'm not going to threaten and cajole CCP but I would like a little bit of respect back. Not lies, not half truths. Clearly the fine thinkers of this thread deserve the transparency and frankly they should get it because they are more capable with these numbers then CCP seems to be.

I think the point I was trying to make is we get plenty of "hey I see that" but get very little "this is what we are doing to fix it, these are the numbers, response?"

If I am not mistaken, explosive damage is 130 over 70. I could be wrong however. Once again play to your strengths. That is the nature of this game. Manny a Caldari scum have lost their lives to my pro scrambler rifle and pro flaylock on my Amarr alt. it gives me much pleasure to see them die so easily.

Try 1 enhanced ferro, 1 basic plate, 2. enhanced plates and a complex repairer.

I find issue with your reasoning in this. You go on to say that the armors should be diferent, but then you come down into the next section and say "Well Armor tanks have less HP"

You cannot say, These things must be different, and then try to compare them like they are the same. Using your own example.

Feel free to flame me all you want for this next part. I don't have time for PC and do pubs and I never run proto in Pubs. so I haven't looked at my proto fit in awhile. But if I remember correctly the Gal suit gets 3 High/4 Low and vice versa for the Caldari. Your example only shows 2 low slots for the Gallente suit, but all 4 high slots for the Caldari suit.

You are rigging the results to suit your hypothesis. How about showing 210 +115 + 115 + 115 + 115 = 670 if you are going to compare HP levels straight up.

And by your own example, those Shield extenders are all in the highs, which means the Caldari cannot fit Damage mods. However the Gallente soldier can fit 3x damage mods. So therefore in a straight up Brawler vs Skirmisher fight, the Armor tanker does more DPS and has alot more health.

Of course you can say, But the speed penalty is SOOOO bad. You are correct. However CCP has to balance the ability of the Armor tanker to be the absolute FOTM because having perfect armor and Damage capabilities is BROKEN... So thats why there is both a speed and a PG/CPU issue, to keep that broke situation from occuring. Thats the price for armor tanking.

Assault suit gk.0 EHP- 888

3x damage modifiers
3x complex plates
1x enhanced plate
1x duvolle AR

Damage-54
Armor repair- 0
Shield repair- 25
Speed-3.97 <-- Almost as slow as a heavy

I think your math is wrong.. I have never pumped bullets into someone for 14 seconds before they die. pretty much everyone dies in about 1, 2 or 3 seconds. This isn't wow where we circle the boss mob and whack a mole all day.

So taking that 1.14 and 1.5, what should the penalty be for about a 24% increase in surviveability? Yes he can out run, out track and repair. But the CK.0 needs something to make up for it.

So according to the new dev blog, explosive should only do 120% damage to armor. That doesn't seem right.
http://dust514.com/news/blog/2013/07/weapon-ranges-in-uprising-1.2-and-beyond/

drop suit imbalance ive been here since may of 2012 and a lot of the imbalances are with armor tanked suits there are just simply favoring all ,armor suit leaving the shield tanks suit completely defencless im mean look at caldari suits for instance they have nothing but shields very little armor and when you put amor plates on them the are slow now look at gallente when you put amor plates on them they move the same speed I think the stacking penalty dosent apply or idk also repair tools only repair armor and nanite injectors only repair armour and flux gernades are over kill two basic gernades will blow up a tank even though the only do 1200 shield damage some how you can destroy armor I think armor tamnkers are fine its the shield tanker that need to either have a small buff or come out with gear to rep shields look at eve we have shield reps there why cant we have them on dust

So none of the new weapons are hybrid? That is stupid on CCPs part. What weapons attack what?

The flux argument is incorrect as 1 Flaylock shot will kill a shield tanker

You miss the point where Blackstar makes the point that shield/armor are equally affected by the flux. That was what I was basing the Flaylock on...shield vs armor against a Flaylock after a flux is thrown.

Armor is imbalanced against shields. i think armor should be buffed drastically. as a temporary fix, all the armor mods should have their benefits doubled except the reactive plates which should have their values quadrupled.

shield extenders, should have higher pg requirement to help prevent duel tanking.

I recall you supporting armor mods' hp being doubled along with their fitting requirements and speed penalty, in order to open more slots for reppers and/or to enable armor tankers to have higher hp tanks with more movement penalty. Along with buffing armor reppers (make them more effective upon taking damage but less effective after some passing of time) removing Gallente Assault's current shield recharge bonus, replacing it with bonuses to the armor plate fitting requirements, making Gallente Assault 2 High/5 Low, Amarr Assault 2 High/4 Low and Amarr Logistics 1 High/5Low with more PG, I think that would fix it! :)

Example:

Basic Armor Plates: 130 HP, 6% movement penalty, 20 CPU, 2 PG

Enhanced Armor Plates: 174 HP, 10%, 40 CPU, 12 PG

Complex Armor Plates: 224 HP, 20%, 60 CPU, 24 PG

Complex Armor Repairer: 6 HP/sec (+30% HP upon receiving damage, leveling out over the next several seconds to a constant -20% HP, so a CAR would rep 8 HP/sec after getting hit, stay there for a bit, and then over the next several seconds of not getting hit it would decrease to 7...6...5...and stay at 5.

The problem with that idea is that it limits what the Gallentes can fit since most modules are in the lows.

DONT NO BODY FORGET ABOUT THE AMARR.. just because CCP cocked up the slot lay out does not means we aren't as dedicated armour tankers as you Gallenteans are.

Just want to say this thread continues to be full of win with rational discussion, innovative ideas, and objective scrutiny of concepts. There should be a like all thread button.

I wanted to discuss the effect of armor on side stepping. As far as movement goes I am ok with sprint being significantly reduced. However armor has the undesired effect of making you easier to hit in a fire fight. Basically you take more damage which negates the point of armor.

So I now leaning more towards the armor reducing sprint penalty but not walk penalty. How do y'all feel about that?

Amarr has far superior PG/CPU, so while Gallente people may have to run around with Enhanced with maybe 1 complex mod, we can usually roll the opposite (Lots of complex with maybe 1 enhanced).

It balances out.. Eventually..

I done Arkena's 2000th like!
\o/

lol 28 pages and over 6k views and still nothing. Tis' a damn shame.....


Peace, Godin

Their constant lack of attention to this thread is incredibly worrying....

Confirming that CCP Wolfman spoke to the kitty. Unfortunately he wouldn't give us any armour numbers quite yet as they were still debating with CCP Remnant about specifics. So we still have to wait a while but at least it's being worked on which is great!

Mass drivers are the new FOTM. Ever noticed how this has 30+ pages and no blue posts?

Is there confirmation of explosive tweaking?

Yes, sign me up for using all my low slots and some of my mid slots for my tank.

Honestly, more modules is not the answer. Balanced ones are.

I want to see how CCP is fixing armor tanking, I have a feeling they are just buffing modules but forgetting that Shield suits can equip those same modules, and both shield and armor suits have the same module distribution due to us losing a slot for repairs.

Yes but a dual tanked Gallente suit is < a dual tanked Caldari suit. Even if the modules were buffed this difference would still remain, the only way to make this at least close to equal would be by adding a degree of passive armor repair thereby freeing up 1 low slot.

Check out my post about tracking w/ armor tanking.

I do think adding an armor tank related mod to a high power slot position would help the situation. Not be a complete fix on its own of course, that requires internal scaling of mod types et al but having some armor tank options in the highs would help. However that doesn't require a new mod, in fact I've long supported the idea of putting the Reactive plates into a high powered slot.

In any case you observation is a good one.

Cheers,
Cross

How would you assess the comparative balance risk of moving the ferro as opposed to the reactive?

high-slot Armor modules have to be force multipliers rather than pure +ehp, IMO (otherwise just put on complex shield extenders since they regen by themselves anyway).

So, something like 10% armor damage reduction is useless on a Caldari suit, but if you can scrape up 500 armor hp (262.5 from a GK.0 + 253 from two complex plates) then you've added 73EHP as well as made your armor repairers 10% more effective.

this is one of the most popular threads recently....

where are the DEV'S??? they need to be HERE agreeing with you!!! telling you that this will happen

I'd honestly go the other way a bit. I think the average time to kill could stand to be increased by about 20%.
The faster you make all deaths the faster new players die as they'll take the harsh end of the stick there.
The faster the average rate of death is the more effect you need out of your gear in a short time to make it worth running at all, this compressed risk vs reward is problematic as, taken too far, it will discourage players from fully leveling skills and thus shorten the lifespan of the game.
Also, the shorter the average lifespan becomes, i.e. the easier it is to kill someone, the more focus it puts on pure slayer tactics and meta within the game which isn't an improvement IMO. Besides the blow to support roles it all increases the FotM behavior and the use of things like redline sniping, murder taxi, etc. as ways to mitigate risk.

To kill faster under present, or even higher average, eHP standards it's relatively simple. Shoot them in the back and/or head, that's a OHK with many militia weapons using zero damage mods or SP to support them. Even with 20% more eHP in game there would be many weapons that are OHK simply by investing SP into their use (to say nothing of stacking on damage mods).

0.02 ISK
Cross

And if that becomes increasingly unlikely? Like 1.4 adds shield boosters to infantry or the regen bug doesn't get fixed soon. In a relationship its good to know when you feel like its okay to walk away. When does that happen here?

I saw that. What the hell is wrong with people?

Pretty much. Let's consider this a preview to the butthurt that will ensue when the Gallente and Amarr assault get armor related bonuses.

So it looks like we've taken a wait and see attitude here but I'm unsure we should rest. One, the problem isn't resolved. Two, we don't have a road map to its resolution.

Maybe I'm a sore winner but I'm happy, not satisfied.

I feel like the loudest folks on TTK here are the PC folks. I think in pub/FW matches with completely manageable latency (most of my experience) I'm at EASILY able to get by as a very logi oriented logi that gives most of my fitting budget to equipment rather than tank ending up with 500ish eHP. 500 eHP can die to a sneeze according to some folks, and can't stand up to the lucky core locus grenade, but more often than not, since I can detect enemies ahead of time I can keep enough distiance between us to make my scrambler rifle or mass driver deadly enough, and in those instances where I am close, I feel like I have enough of a grasp on the scrambler pistol that I am safe.

I do not expect to be able to dive into 3-4 people and come out alive as some people think they should.

The problem with PC still isn't TTK is it latency. Poor lag forces a closer gun game because AR has the best DPS and RoF combo. AR requires close range, and close range fighting requires enough of a balance of speed and tank. This favors shield tanking for a variety of reasons that are pretty obvious.

Therefore, I think it stands pretty clearly to reason that the problem with the meta now isn't weapon/suit stats, its hardware/network capability and reliability.

So THIS is where all your likes came from!