Whoops, missed unit 10. This has now been corrected.

God these flaylocks are like a win button against Gallente I have yet to play a game today where the majority of the team isn't using these... It is literally impossible to kill somebody with a flaylock as a Gallente logistics unless I am super far away, not only can I not strafe fast enough I only have about 2 seconds to dish out enough damage to kill them. If armor isn't fixed by uprising 1.2 I am just leaving this game I cannot handle how bad my character is because I picked the wrong suit... Yep New Eden HTFU or GTFO guess I know which one I fit in, didn't know New Eden was brutal since the time you decide to pick a suit

I think shields should regen slower by default- there's no reason for shield users to fit a shield recharger.

But let me also point out a few disadvantages for shield users:
Once their armor is gone, it's gone (unless they have a logi)
Since armor plates give more HP than shield extenders, armor users can stack damage mods in their high slots
Logibro + armor > logibro + shields

Ferroscale and reactive plates are underpowered, and even if they were fine there would be obsolete modules and core issues.

Shields aren't as OP as most think.. I run with flux grenades ever game now, takes out Cal Logis like nothing.

You may be interested in this.

I recently made an idea for nanofibre plates that would increase speed, lower armour and give hp regen. The idea fleshes out a little in the latest post.

These modules would fit in the high slots.

Please refer to

If they want to encourage pure shield or pure armour tanking, they need more percentage bonuses (like shield rechargers).

e.g. if shield extenders and plates provided percentage bonuses you could still provide equivalent protection on suits designed for it, e.g.:

http://i.imgur.com/0y6sXIK.png

However, it means that you can't dual tank effectively because your base armor is too low to be worth it (you could use non-percentage stuff like reactive or ferroscale plates)

Their speed is only part of their benefit. GIving them more eHP would be overpowered. They also have more stamina, which means they end up sprinting about 25% further than other suits of the same class. Basically they can make the most use of cardiac regulators and kincats.

Don't gang up on me I did that already on my Dual tanking post, but I will provide some links to fitting tools with comparisons of every suit whilst pure shield tanking, pure armor tanking, and pure dual tanking.

This is a modified version of the 3.3.1 fitting tool to include the new armor plate values. Going to use the Gallente and Caldari Assault suits only because the Amarr is meant to dual tank, only the Minmatar logistics has enough slots to dual tank, and the Gallente and Caldari logistics suits do not have an even slot distribution.

@ Cross Atu, I see what you mean now about costs and what they sacrifice etc etc, I seemed to have gotten tunnel vision when I was looking at a dual tanked suit vs a purely tanked suit that I didn't realize the costs of running dual tanked. Although a dual tanked Caldari is far better than a dual tanked Gallente, but that is mostly because of the bonus to shield recharge and no passive armor repairs.

Caldari Assault dual tanked

CPU- 344/394
PG- 72/79
Shield- 553
Armor- 392
Shield Recharge Rate- 31.25
Shield Delay- 5
Shield Depleted Delay- 8
Armor Repair Rate- 6.25
Movement- 4.72
Sprint- 6.94
Duration- 15
Stamina- 157.5
Stamina Recovery- 15.75
Scan Profile- 45
Scan Precision- 49.5
Scan Radius- 15
Melee- 110

EHP: 945 | ISK: 91,800 | AUR: 0

Gallente Assault dual tanked

CPU- 267/394
PG- 62/79
Shield- 368
Armor- 625
Shield Recharge Rate- 25
Shield Delay- 7
Shield Depleted Delay- 10
Armor Repair Rate- 6.25
Movement- 4.64
Sprint- 6.82
Duration- 15
Stamina- 157.5
Stamina Recovery- 15.75
Scan Profile- 45
Scan Precision- 49.5
Scan Radius- 15
Melee- 110

EHP: 993 | ISK: 83,355 | AUR: 0

Caldari Assault shield tanked

CPU- 261/394
PG- 55/79
Shield- 553
Armor- 150
Shield Recharge Rate- 31.25
Shield Delay- 5
Shield Depleted Delay- 8
Armor Repair Rate- 6.25
Movement- 5
Sprint- 7.35
Duration- 15
Stamina- 157.5
Stamina Recovery- 15.75
Scan Profile- 45
Scan Precision- 49.5
Scan Radius- 15
Melee- 110

EHP: 703 | ISK: 80,385 | AUR: 0

Gallente Assault armor tanked

CPU- 105/394
PG- 29/79
Shield- 150
Armor- 625
Shield Recharge Rate- 25
Shield Delay- 7
Shield Depleted Delay- 10
Armor Repair Rate- 6.25
Movement- 4.64
Sprint- 6.82
Duration- 15
Stamina- 157.5
Stamina Recovery- 15.75
Scan Profile- 45
Scan Precision- 49.5
Scan Radius- 15
Melee- 110

EHP: 775 | ISK: 70,530 | AUR: 0

[quote=D legendary hero]

[to avoid distorting the page i have removed the numbers]

Adding a passive armor repair of 7-9 would definately increase the survivability of the Gallente suits by making armor repairers optional, the Caldari suits have very high survivability even with the 110% damage modifier.

I think what the Heavy suit needs first and foremost, along with all other suits, is a passive armor repair that is dependable by itself but not as high as shield repair, for the Amarr suits only they need a % efficacy for armor plates. The speed might not be as important when 1.4 hits and tracking speeds are no longer dropsuit dependant and hit detection fixes which the HMG suffers from. But nevertheless the first sentence is extremely essential in balancing armor and shields.

I think what the Heavy suit needs first and foremost, along with all other suits, is a passive armor repair that is dependable by itself but not as high as shield repair.

Well any suit repairing at 25 HP/s will die instantly. Lets say the Gallente Logistics got 11 armor repair and the Logistics role bonus did not exist, then this suit adds in x5 complex armor repairers that would be a total armor repair of 36 HP/s shields at 326 and armor at 216, but thats not all this is a Logistics suit and even with its massive CPU/PG with this sort of fitting it has 387CPU/88PG meaning that the CPU/PG fittings apply this limiting factor, thus the highest most players would go for is around 15-20 that's one or two complex armor repairers max.

This is a bug, shield recharge delay is supposed to reset every time a Merc takes damage, so while this assessment is currently accurate it is not working as intended, maybe be patched on the 3rd when 1.4 lands and in any case isn't a good factor to consider building balance around.

I dare say you can take on 4 people at the same time and consistently in CQC just by being mobile and spraying a GEK because your tank is so effective! but, this is not OP because it is by design you need max level skills to be able to tank like this, and it cost you 100k ISK.

at longer ranges (preferably mid-range) you become a GOD due to damage fall off your shields and armor will take almost no damage from all save a sniper or forgun gun

Now I am not saying these suits not are tough to kill, but I am saying we should be careful not to overstate the case.
Further I ran around in a logi suit which weighed in at around 800 HP and I was far from unkillable, in fact I was still able to be OHK (not often but it still happened, shotty, nades, sniper rifle).

I'm wondering what you're looking at as far as heavy fits by comparison? Just being at a higher HP, or even eHP alone doesn't show a problem, being there while rocking an equal or better weapon and/or costing less per fitting however could start to become a problem.

A few thoughts that occurred to me upon first read.

Cheers,
Cross

[quote=D legendary hero]
a compelling argument
Cheers,
Cross

Dabbling with the fitting tool I get
EHP 1591 | ISK 88,515 | AUR 0
Note: These are all 1.3 numbers

So on balance that Cal Assault is getting ~40.6% less EHP at a cost of 3,285 more ISK per fitting. In a broader sense I'm inclined to think the Heavy could use some love, but based on the numbers here I don't see how these duel tanked suits can qualify as defeating the point of being a heavy, they have less EHP at a higher ISK per fitting cost and possess no access to heavy weapons.

The logic... it burns my neurons

Yissss, let it your hate make your more powerful.

Seriously, this issue is better but not resolved. The armor tank still requires more SP. They need more modules to get lower regen and only slightly better buffer. We are still, for some unknowable reason, slower then shield tanks. Modules are still balanced in such a way that are free high slots are only useful for buffer shields or damage mods. There's absolutely no word on changes like this or racial bonuses.

We got a small plate buff, which is nice but this war is far from over.

What about the shield user using a Mass driver vs the Armor user using a AR? There is no way the Armor user would survive even with a Logi repairing. The HP pool an armor person is actually the same as a shield suits when you consider shields higher resistance to the majority of damage. When you add a core locus grenade on the shield suit vs a flux grenade on the armor suit you skew the results even closer to the shield suit winning. Also a logi repairs are easily out DPSed by any weapon, logistic repairs are only suitable in between battles not during.

PS ~ D legendary hero, looks like that addresses our discussion before and moves me even more adamantly into thinking the Heavy frame needs some love to give it proper utility. What is your take on how having a hit box increase tied to shield extender use would effect the state of the game for Heavies?

EDIT: All of the above assumes that I don't come back later and realize I've somehow misread something key

I actually run Minmitar and while obviously having no down side makes a mod more effective than having a down side I don't think shield extenders applying a % increase to hitbox size would be all that damaging to Minmitar builds (and this comes from someone who is dedicated to the idea of moving fast).

0.02 ISK
Cross

Just remove a low from the Caldari suit.