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Galvan Nized
Deep Space Republic Top Men.
98
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Posted - 2013.07.13 13:06:00 -
[1] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:TheGoebel wrote:SponkSponkSponk wrote:Generally, the idea seems to be that weapons with -x% to shields to +x% to armor so in that context it does seem reasonable. 60% damage difference is reasonable? It would be reasonable if we had at least 40-50% more HP than a shield suit, but we have a less HP than them. With the current mechanics explosive damage is extremely unfair. Flux grenade affect everybody equally, but explosives only affect armor suits effectively. There is also no weapon that does high damage against shields, I thought the forge gun did but its actually another 70/130 weapon.
Armor does have more hp, unless you bring in Cal Logi who are kind of screwy and deserve a different bonus. More hp per plate is deserved but let's not go crazy. Flux does not affect everyone equally, armor tankers must admit this. Plus these kill now (takes at least a 2nd grenade and the kill zone has a much smaller radius. )
I can agree with the number of explosive weapons and their huge dmg increase vs armor. Really should have been like 120% max. It's really only the MDs and Flaylocks that are the problem.
Plasma cannon greatly attacks shields, but it's a killer regardless. Forge gun I thought was a hybrid... doesn't matter though as it kills all in 1 hit. ScR and laser Rifles both do moderately better damage vs shields. |
Galvan Nized
Deep Space Republic Top Men.
98
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Posted - 2013.07.13 13:16:00 -
[2] - Quote
reydient wrote:I have to say that all thought shields still seems superior to amor in most aspects- what Ive noticed is that CCP gave armor tankers more options- These options have allowed us to gain speed and regenerative properties- thus we have made that step towards balance because that what shield tankers ultimately have- lost of tank and very few penalties-
What i think now is that the amount of shields a person can stack without penalty is whats pressing- If i stack 600hp worth of armor - its all going to get taken away in a grenade blast but for shields 600 hp is a pretty substantial amount of chewing for most weapons to accomplish - but I have also notice that if armor tankers do not charge into battle and play their cards right they can excel further than most shield tankers
1- triage hives for all armor tankers
2- dropsuit kinetics
these are two important aspects of all shield tankers-
3- play the back field
I know I'm dbl posting but you make some good points. Shields MUST have a penalty, right now they run around unhampered.
Armor tanking is best done as a group, your power multiplies greatly if you have more than 1 person. .. shields have no such benefit. You do not bring up repair tools. Imagine getting over 625 raw hp plus base if you did not have to worry about repairing because your buddy always stays close. And throw in a triage hive stacked with other triage hives and you are amazingly powerful.
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Galvan Nized
Deep Space Republic Top Men.
98
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Posted - 2013.07.13 13:32:00 -
[3] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:
Armor has more HP but that survivability from the HP is completely countered by speed decreases, and thus it devalues the HP. When we try to mitigate the speed penalty to reasonable levels we end up with lower HP, lower repair, and lower speed than a shield suit. Flux do affect everyone equally because a fluxed then flaylocked shield suit will die just as fluxed then flaylocked armor suit. Although it hurts armor suits a lot more since we cannot recover from fluxes as fast.
Explosive damage should be 90/110, or 100/120.
Forge gun should be flipped to 1 shot shield suits and 2 shot armor suits, even out the playing field once the armor killers show up, 5/8 of the new weapons to be released are going to be armor killers, and the 3 shield killers only one will be a heavy shield killing weapon, and the only heavy shield killing weapon.
Shields have no penalty so it's hard to deny your argument about mitigating the armor penalty. Shields need one.
The flux argument is incorrect as 1 Flaylock shot will kill a shield tanker, should not be so for Armor tankers unless they have too little hp. And the Flaylock has issues of its own and needs looked at separate from this debate. Change that to MD and it still 1 shots shield tankers without shields but is a 3 shot minimum to armor tankers.
Forge gun will always be a 1 shot kill, it's damage is just too high for either suit to compete. As it is meant for AV noone is running around using these in the middle of a firefight with infantry.
So none of the new weapons are hybrid? That is stupid on CCPs part. What weapons attack what? |
Galvan Nized
Deep Space Republic Top Men.
98
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Posted - 2013.07.13 14:23:00 -
[4] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:Funny; if you take a look at this, You'll learn that more damage types types do more damage to armor (3:5), and there's 4 more weapons that do more damage to armor.......
Thank you for this, really fills in the gaps. Going by this there are/will be 13 handheld weapons that deal greater armor damage.
9 that are better against shields. 3 of these can be removed from armor as these 1 shot anything or are not infantry focused (REs, swarms, forge).
1 can be removed from shields as it is not infantry focused (plasma cannon), maybe 3 depending on those new heavy weapons.
Letd add in grenades, flux against shields and locusts against armor.
So in total it is 11v9 armor/shields. That's pretty close, sucks right now with disparity between armor and shields (shields really need a penalty. ) |
Galvan Nized
Deep Space Republic Top Men.
98
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Posted - 2013.07.13 15:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Galvan Nized wrote: So none of the new weapons are hybrid? That is stupid on CCPs part. What weapons attack what?
By new weapons, do you mean the ones released on the 14th or the ones coming out soon(tm)? If it's the former, the plasma cannon is hybrid (though that lolsplodes everything anyway if you actually hit with it). If it's the latter, then the rail rifle is hybrid. The combat rifle is solid ammunition. EDIT: Wait wtf, the rail rifle does more damage to armour?! Also, Galvan Nized wrote: The flux argument is incorrect as 1 Flaylock shot will kill a shield tanker
This is not correct. 1 flaylock shot does not kill a shield tanker unless they're terribly fit/militia and it's a core flaylock. 1 flaylock shot generally doesn't kill a proto armour tanker, but it's capable of killing advanced suits in 1 shot sometimes.
You miss the point where Blackstar makes the point that shield/armor are equally affected by the flux. That was what I was basing the Flaylock on...shield vs armor against a Flaylock after a flux is thrown.
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Galvan Nized
Deep Space Republic Top Men.
99
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Posted - 2013.07.14 06:51:00 -
[6] - Quote
Mordecai Snake wrote:Kinetic Catalyzers and Shield Regulators should be moved to high slots.
Catalyzers No. Biotics=DMG Mods. Moving them may give armor tankers an easy way to mitigate the speed penalty but does not deal with the real problem: shields have no penalty.
Shield Regulators I completely Agree. However, this should also kill the shield regulator skill tying it into rechargers so you have the choice.
Also CPU and PG enhancers should fit into both slots.
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Galvan Nized
Deep Space Republic Top Men.
100
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Posted - 2013.07.14 06:59:00 -
[7] - Quote
reydient wrote:Black Star - you have some really good points- I recently have been trying to assemble play style for the gallente logi and the gallente assault- I do not think that armor and shield are equal, but the benefit of armor is not as obvious and maybe me you and some other people can figure out how to exploit armor
I too have some ideas on how to use armor effectively, I'm not an armor tanker but would like to test/share ideas in game with the armor community. |
Galvan Nized
Deep Space Republic Top Men.
100
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Posted - 2013.07.14 07:55:00 -
[8] - Quote
TheGoebel wrote:So for fun I thought I'd write down some of the arguments I've heard over this campaign. Please join in if you have a good one. 4. Armor is fine because of rep guns and nanohives. While 3 is my favorite this one is my most infuriating. Look, it is a nice bonus to armor to have outside repair sources when shields don't but to there's a reason for this. Armor has no natural repair rate. Most shields are back up before a they could be substantially repaired, the exception being the new commando suit and its 10 hp a sec. My real reason this pisses me off is that it creates a barrier between solo play and group play. Shields are fine for both while armor would only be good for one. It's an insidious statement that allows for continued imbalance under the guise of unique game play. The reason why people make this statement is false attribution, people working together will be more effective, doesn't matter if you're a shield tanker or an armor tanker. So when people see or are more effective in a group of armor tankers they assume it's because of the armor but I would say it's for the team work. Team play is a force multiplier which is hard to account for when measure effectiveness. [/quote]
I guess I can deal with this a little more directly. You call it a "nice bonus" but all buff to armor is to make it more viable against shields 1v1 but does nothing about this "bonus." It's more than a bonus.
While very true that all gain better effectiveness from team work they do not gain equally. 5 shield tankers gain more damage some tactics and maybe ammo support. 5 armor tankers, if they are set up right, gain the exact same damage and ammo plus tactics. But they also gain enhanced ability to repair. Enough people together and this is many times higher than shields could ever reach. These make the 2 "different. "
I misunderstand what we are aiming for with armor vs shield, is balancing 1v1 in pub matches the only objective, regardless of how it affects anything else? If this is let's just make EHP and forget the debate, blend the 2 together or throw one out completely. Each mod gives 100 hp fitting in any slot with no penalty, give a standard repair of 20 and let's end the debate. |
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