I think shields should regen slower by default- there's no reason for shield users to fit a shield recharger.

But let me also point out a few disadvantages for shield users:
Once their armor is gone, it's gone (unless they have a logi)
Since armor plates give more HP than shield extenders, armor users can stack damage mods in their high slots
Logibro + armor > logibro + shields

While Im in favour of your arguments.

My concern is the dual tanking would confer an advantage that would out weigh the need for other modules, specifically damage mods. Especially since thier are shield regen bonuses on Assault suits.

Could I ask that you have a look at duel tanking in relation to your suggestions and see if dual tanking would create a situation were that strategy become overly optimal.

While Im in favour of your arguments.

My concern is the dual tanking would confer an advantage that would out weigh the need for other modules, specifically damage mods. Especially since thier are shield regen bonuses on Assault suits.

Could I ask that you have a look at duel tanking in relation to your suggestions and see if dual tanking would create a situation were that strategy become overly optimal.

This is a very valid point. If both tanks are viable, why not use both?
I hate this argument because it implies that one shouldn't be viable on its own, but it's a valid point.

I think that, ideally, the fitting resources should be balanced such that it's difficult to use both tanks and easier to use one type of tank and using utility modules. Essentially, using PG as a resource primarily for tank types so that it becomes prohibitively PG intensive to dual tank and instead it encourages balanced use of tank modules and utility modules. For this to work, though, tank modules, weapons and equipment would probably have to be the only major consumers of PG.

I think I might change the fittings section to explain this.

The best solution, in my opinion, would be to make it so that the PG you have available is only good enough for one tank type in addition to your weapon and equipment. If tank modules consumed large amounts of PG and utility modules consumed primarily CPU (instead of also using lots of PG like damage mods/kinetic catalyzers) then that would encourage using just a single tank type instead of using both to gain a large durability advantage, and using utility modules in addition to their tank.

What do you think? I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.

thats the thing. shield tankers depend on NO ONE. but armor tankers to be effective need logibros.... thats alittle unbalanced.

but i think the whole mechanic of logis needs a fix, within a 20m radius of enemies the logi should get cyclic points for holding a rep tool on teammates (ie.e every 3seconds 5points, etc) whether shots are fired or not.

outside 20m logis should have the current system where only when damage taken does the logi get triage oints.


this way they dnt become useless when armor = balanced with shield. but at the same time armor + logi = shield tanker.

because right now shield > armor, unless there is a logi. why is one shield tank worth 2 people?

Well, that escalated quickly.

We're getting to the point where we're looking at huge changes to armour right now - having god plates which cost a lot in fittings is drastically different from what we have now, and frankly that isn't balanced either because slots are just as much a resource as PG or CPU.
That's not great because ideally we want to have something that CCP would genuinely consider doing.

A lot of the suggested buff to reactive plates I'm seeing here are also drastic and even if they were moved to high slots they'd obsolete plate/rep comboes, and hell, you'd start seeing armour tanking shield suits if you did that stuff in the high slots.

Extreme fittings requirements are a huge pain to deal with as well, even more so than having fewer slots in my opinion, and it'd make the top tiered items unusable simply because they're too difficult to fit.

When looking at the ferroscale and reactive plates please also remember that those might not be the final numbers from CCP. Much of this is about other stuff than the new modules, and focusing too much on that might get a possible dev response to also focus on the fact that they aren't the final numbers.

That said, I'm mucking around updating P8+P12.

Here's this week's update on issues and suggestions that the dev team discussed.

[FEEDBACK] Ferroscale and Reactive plates stats https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=86664&find=unread
Update: We will improve on getting info regarding changes and new features out to players sooner and also monitor community feedback on the new items after they get the chance to try it in game.

I am 90% sure this means CCP is sticking with the video stats for Uprising 1.2. Only way this won't be a major failure is if the 10% holds true or they add bonuses to Gallente and Amarr to their usage.

Kinda why I quit posting. For all the lip service CCP pays to listening to the community, when it comes to anything more specific than "X is OP Nerf immediately!" they completely ignore any well thought out recommendations made.

No they claim to read and pay attention to it then go and pull a complete 180, implementing something that makes no logical sense whatsoever.

IE: Enforcer Tanks

While Im in favour of your arguments.

My concern is the dual tanking would confer an advantage that would out weigh the need for other modules, specifically damage mods. Especially since thier are shield regen bonuses on Assault suits.

Could I ask that you have a look at duel tanking in relation to your suggestions and see if dual tanking would create a situation were that strategy become overly optimal.

A lot of the suggested buff to reactive plates I'm seeing here are also drastic and even if they were moved to high slots they'd obsolete plate/rep comboes, and hell, you'd start seeing armour tanking shield suits if you did that stuff in the high slots.

Well my idea of a complex reactive would be to have the same or slightly higher hp than a Complex shield extender and a repair of 3, so in reality they would be like having a basic armor module with a ADV repairer, but I also think repairers should be buffed to 2/4/6 so in my "fantasy world" they would be like having a basic armor module + a slightly better basic repair module.

Repair bonuses aren't as effective as solid + bonuses, since repair is very low unless stacked. I don't think Gallente should get a HP buff per plate because then that would put them at very high HP even with low to no movement penalty, what they need ,in my opinion, is a movement speed buff by around 6% (With a 6% speed buff to the Minmatar suit also). The only suit that would deserve this buff is a Amarr suit.

I never said to remove their repair actually, I believe they should keep it at 1HP/s to slightly balance out the overall repairs, not completely but slightly, meaning no HP/s for Caldari suits sorry.

Well I am picking from my idea of racial bonuses so I am just going to list them all here so you can see what I have in mind for balancing suits racially.

Suit bonuses
Assault: 1% light damage increase per level
Logistics: 5% CPU/PG reduction on equipment per level
Scouts: 5% scan profile reduction per level
Heavies: 3% damage reduction per level

Caldari: Nada
Racial bonus: 5% shield regen per level
Racial bonus: 3% scan profile reduction


Gallente: 3% speed increase, 3 HP/s
Racial bonus: 1 HP/s repair per level
Racial bonus: 5% movement penalty reduction per level


Amarr: 5 HP/s, buff to overall EHP per suit
Racial bonus: 1HP/s repair per level
Racial bonus: 2% shield module efficacy increase per level 2% armor module efficacy per level

Minmatar: small reduction in EHP
Racial bonus: 5% shield regen per level
Racial bonus: 3% recharge delay reduction per level

The idea behing this is an obvious separation between role and race, each role is affected equally but each race gets a bonus pertaining to their defensive specialization, no bonuses in racial weapon to encourage changing weapons and not feeling penalized. Also no offensive bonuses to encourage offensive focused players to go assault, although 1% per level might seem low but people are willing to spend an extra 40K ISK for a 5% damage increase (Gek -> Duvolle is only 5% more damage) Also a 3% speed increase for the Gallente might seem like a lot but after stacking plates they would still be slow, and even with a movement penalty reduction on already small numbers the difference will slightly be felt by the armor user, but still remain relatively slower than a shield tank.

Also I decided a 6% speed buff would be to much and would require a speed buff for minmatar so 3% is fine.

______________________HP____SR____SR -per- 1 HP
Basic Armor Plates_______65_____3%___0.046%
Advanced Armor Plates____85_____5%___0.059%
Complex Armor Plates____115____10%__0.087%

Basic Reactive Plates_____15_____1%___0.067%
Advanced Reactive Plates__25____2%___0.08%
Complex Reactive Plates___45____4%___0.089%

What fittings values are you looking at applying for the complex reactive in combination with the stats you've listed?

I don't think a base speed buff to the Gal suits is a good idea because that starts to diminish game diversity as an unarmor tanked Gal suit, or even one running Ferro plates would then be baseline faster, and that still doesn't address the idea of a more 'flavorful' racial skill. What would you think of a skill that reduced the speed penalty from plates? True this would make Ferro plates much less useful for the Gal suits but it would allow them to get more buffer/reps without being so slow they aren't viable while maintaining unique fittings possibilities between the races.

Regarding the Min Assault on board repair, again it seems too homogenizing to increase the similarity of suit stats this way, but perhaps others don't agree so that aside there's still the issue of suit balance. Are the Gal and Amarr suits weaker than the Cal and Min suits right now? Unless they are adding extra stats to them pushes them out of line with the other assault suits.

Logistics: 5% CPU/PG reduction on equipment per level Speaking as a Logi I honestly don't see the 5% CPU/PG reduction on equipment as very useful. It's not filling my equipment slots that I've ever really had trouble with (unless I'm running more than one type of uplink at a time) and the fittings cost for equipment is rarely high enough to enable me to squeeze on a better [insert item from any other slot] by downgrading my equipment to save on fittings.
I have not sat down with the numbers to see what total savings could be gained with this so perhaps I'd be surprised by actual figures in some cases but my experience tells me it's not highly useful as a buff, certainly not equivalent to the vital ability to self rep. For this change to not be an outright nerf the 25% fittings cost reduction would have to save enough to fit a Complex Rep out of the saving alone with more left over. Even then it's still costing a slot among the already constrained lows. At present I have no trouble fitting all my equipment slots for PC battles (much less pubs or FW) to whatever configuration squad/team command requests, but I most certainly do have trouble maintaining sufficient buffer HP to allow me to stay where I'm required to employ all that gear for best effect, which is why I hybrid tank. This change would make that durability aspect even lower, and my effective ability to support along with it.

The rest
I like the clear flavor/role support the method provides so general thumbs up here.
These changes would require a rework for the Laser and Scram rifles since they're currently geared to have optimal performance with their race which would now be impossible. Also no Minmatar hacking bonus that's one of my favorite aspects of the line as it provides great utility that isn't essentially combat focused, but I suppose if it balanced the rest of things I'd be content to let it go (although personally I'd rather have that than a fittings reduction on Equipment).

Cheers,
Cross

On reactive plates I still think they should have Low HP- half the repair of a repairer of the same tier- low speed penalty- and medium CPU/PG costs compared to armor modules. The bonuses I suggested do not directly affect the usefulness of most modules, except the speed penalty reduction. And because I believe reactives should have low speed penalty a 25% reduction would barely be felt.

Yes the Gallente and Amarr are actually weaker than the Caldari and Minmatar, in my opinion and based on suit comparisons, unless the Gallente and Amarr take a huge hit in speed to "kinda" come close to the HP of both these suits.

I am a Gallente logistic, and once I get my lvl 5 CPU/PG skills and repair tool to level 5 I can equip a core focused repair tool without having to remove any modules or equipment. I tried this with other Logistic suits and they can't do this. Repair for Logistic suits I removed it as a racial because I believe Shield Logistic suits should not repair armor better than Armor suits, the best possible way I see to give them back this bonus is to give all suits a base repair tiered repair,and then reapply the logistic buff at a rate of 2HP/s instead of 5. Thus:

Caldari Assault: 0 HP/s
Caldari Logistic: 2 HP/s

Gallente Assault: 3 HP/s
Gallente Logistic: 5 HP/s

Minmatar Assault: 1 HP/s
Minmatar Logistic: 3 HP/s

Amarr Assault: 5 HP/s
Amarr Logistic: 7 HP/s

On the point of the hacking bonus, I honestly missed this one when going through the list on the top of my head. Although hacking speeds can be buffed suit side, I don't remember, but I recall the Logistics VK.0 (Chromosome) having a hacking speed bonus.

What are you doing on page three? Did CCP fix the issue?

another thread by a person who doesn't understand how logistics gives the armour class an advantage. this is my surprised face.