I have not done extensive testing with the Heavy but based on what I have done and on the feedback of Heavies I play with I'm of the opinion that the Sentinel needs a bit of polish the entire question of the reactive plates aside. So while I feel for some Heavy builds it would still be useful (FG in over watch for example), I do see how in most cases it wouldn't have broader utility for the Sentinel suit without a rework.

Presuming your suggestion (seen via link) were adopted then having all shield and all armor mods segregated would make sense, most specifically due to the Upgrade mods no longer being in a zero sum relationship with armor tanking mods (part of the impetus for my suggestion, which is also meant to include having a PG mod in a high slot, again assuming current config).

There are some other suits with limited high slots and placing a reactive would be a limitation on stacking damage mods in such configurations if one were to run the reactive plates however that's assuming builds that are gank fit. And while those builds are viable they are not the only viable method as I know both Assaults and Logis who run full tank fits at present (generally stacked towards shields due to the advantage there). I know almost no scouts who run armor tank due to speed but they wouldn't be looking much at the reactive plates anyway for the very same reason, which leaves the heavy.

There's a whole lot that could/would go into this but I've been trying to keep my comments confined to the mods themselves, which I suppose may have painted an incomplete picture. In either case thank you for conducting a resonable conversation on the issue and I look forward to more in the future.

Cheers,
Cross

Tagged and Forwarding.

Are you telling me that someone lied on the internet?

because when people write in all caps they must be telling the truth.... they took out the time to put it in all caps.

I'm only suggesting one specific type of mod be placed there not a migration in general, further your statement assumes that everyone runs damage mods which is untrue. Not everyone runs damage mods nor is doing so required to preform well. I've run squads that placed top of the match with no mods between us and I know Assaulters who've been in the top 20 during closed beta that didn't run a single mod (and still don't on their primary fittings, AV notwithstanding).

All of that aside I have to reiterate that it is an option not a requirement so it doesn't cost anyone anything just allows for a more diverse pallet from which to draw possible fittings configurations.

I doubt that the Reactive Plates would be the sole source of tank when placed in a high slot. Depending on the suit they may not even be the primary source of tank but that doesn't mean they wouldn't be useful. Two of them would nearly equal a proto repper, plus provides more buffer (assuming current stats). Even fitting only a single reactive could give fits that would otherwise lack all native rep some mild form of self rep, I know some Heavies which would include this in their fits.

This also provides a bit more balance between shields and armor by putting a mod on the table which takes the same slot as primary shield tank mods. Would this fix armor vs shield tank balance? Absolutely not, but it could contribute to a fix. As long as Shield tanking takes high slots and armor is purely low slots then all buffs to armor direct mods are going to fall sort of providing balance because shield tankers can still 'cheery pick' whatever aspects they want without giving up any of their primary tank. Choices aren't meaningful when they cost nothing.

I'm sure reactive plates in the high slots wouldn't work for every fit but honestly that's partly the point and they most certainly would be used I know Mercs who would use them and I would use them on some fits.

Cheers,
Cross

[quote=Cross Atu]


I guess it does help a bit. I'm concerned that the tanks you'd get from dedicating all your slots to it would be too strong, but then you get a very large speed penalty...
It's not a great thing for heavies, but reactive plates were never going to help heavies that much anyway. I think heavies need their own love, more so than just armour tanking tweaks.
It's an interesting idea, even if it's difficult to balance properly. It definitely makes reactive plates have more of a role, and so I'm going to add this to P12.

I guess it does help a bit. I'm concerned that the tanks you'd get from dedicating all your slots to it would be too strong, but then you get a very large speed penalty...
It's not a great thing for heavies, but reactive plates were never going to help heavies that much anyway. I think heavies need their own love, more so than just armour tanking tweaks.
It's an interesting idea, even if it's difficult to balance properly. It definitely makes reactive plates have more of a role, and so I'm going to add this to P12.

I am still bit fuzzy as to how adding Reactives to Highs would help, as armor tanks we have very low High slots so we wouldn't really benefit much from this. Since we are opting out shields for the same/lower HP in armor with a speed penalty and around 6/7.5 armor regen, in reality we would actually end up weaker, lower HP and lower speed, than if we used shields and armor/rep combo.

Also it actually makes it easier for shield tanks to dual tank by giving them the option of slightly removing the shield dependency and opting for reactive plates without affecting their low slot usage, while at the same time putting a higher dependence on armor suits on armor and force focusing even more slots into armor instead of other useful modules and in the end would just lead to armor suits being a lot slower and a lot weaker than they are now and more susceptible to explosive damage.

I think that if you start relying on reactives being in the high slots to balance the tank, there's something going slightly wrong - while shield regulators are found in the lows, they're not a massive thing that completely changes the balance. In addition, if there are movement penalty plates in both slots, you could be looking at huge speed penalties.
It's also had to balance, because if they're useful in the highslots you'd be able to achieve very very strong tanks by using a combination of highslots and lowslots just for your tank. While it reduces your other options, the tank strength would be a little beyond what I would see as reasonable. It would start exceeding heavy tanks as well (though you'd have similar speeds) because heavies have fewer slots.

I agree, they're unlikely to be used as the sole source of tank in a high slot, and therein lies the issue. To balance that out, the effectiveness would need to be such that using reactives or plate/rep combos as the sole source of tank would be ineffective, or setups with both would be overpowered.

I guess it does help a bit. I'm concerned that the tanks you'd get from dedicating all your slots to it would be too strong, but then you get a very large speed penalty...
It's not a great thing for heavies, but reactive plates were never going to help heavies that much anyway. I think heavies need their own love, more so than just armour tanking tweaks.
It's an interesting idea, even if it's difficult to balance properly. It definitely makes reactive plates have more of a role, and so I'm going to add this to P12.

When you're saying it forces armor tanks to be more armor dependent I'm not sure where that's coming from

As I see it the value of the Reactive moved to a High is situational on a fit by fit basis. As such it provides a piece of the flexibility needed but only a piece.

The internal balance of armor mods still needs to be looked at, the average cost of shield and armor fittings needs to be addressed,

And even at that threshold I'd honestly give a serious eye to altering the numbers on both reactives and ferro, but that's a lot of changes at once and pretty sweeping and I'm wary of sweeping changes they have this tendency to hold hidden problems.

I'm getting slightly confused with all the shield numbers coming in on armour tanks. Cross Atu - you're dual tanking, yeah?

I think shields should regen slower by default- there's no reason for shield users to fit a shield recharger.

But let me also point out a few disadvantages for shield users:
Once their armor is gone, it's gone (unless they have a logi)
Since armor plates give more HP than shield extenders, armor users can stack damage mods in their high slots
Logibro + armor > logibro + shields

I think shields should regen slower by default- there's no reason for shield users to fit a shield recharger.

But let me also point out a few disadvantages for shield users:
Once their armor is gone, it's gone (unless they have a logi)
Since armor plates give more HP than shield extenders, armor users can stack damage mods in their high slots
Logibro + armor > logibro + shields

I'll do a more through review on your numbers, but without even bringing specific numbers into it there is a basic problem with the reactive plates which needs to be answered. Namely what do they do? I'll elaborate; right now the reactive provides a mixture of buffer and reps with a speed debuff. This is the same thing that current plates + reps provide which puts them in direct competition since they use the same slots and are buffed by the same skills et al.

To answer your question what do they do They offer a trade off of HP/Reps for more movement speed. They (are supposed to) offer armor tankers a compromise between less overall HP and less regen, but more movement speed than they would with the standard plate + reps. To the extent that 1 Reactives = more movement and less but close to the same HP+Reps than 1 Standard Plate + 1 Rep. So although they wouldn't have as much HP or reps, they could move out of harms way faster, while still having some HP and some Reps. I don't think they would necessarily be in competition because the amount of movement speed the Reactive Plates should allow would be significant enough to warrant their use over simple plates+reps for those armor tankers who do not want to be slowed down so much. I do think the DEVs will have to adjust the numbers on all the reps and plates to make the Reactives regardless of what slot they are assigned to.

Hypothetical Numbers For Current and New Armor Plates and Repairers

These are theoretical base stats for modules only, no skill buffs are taken into consideration. Any suggestions to CPU/PG usage are welcome.

Plates
Basic: ..............66 HP............ Penalty 3% Speed
Enhanced:.......99 HP.............Penalty 4.5% Speed
Complex:.........165 HP...........Penalty 7.5% Speed

Repairers
Basic:..............Regen 3 HP/s
Enhanced........Regen 6 HP/s
Complex..........Regen 9 HP/s

Ferroscale
Basic:..............33HP
Enhanced:......49HP
Complex:........82HP

Reactive
Basic:.............49HP........Penalty 1.5% Speed.......Regen 1.5 HP/s
Enhanced:......73HP.......Penalty 2.25% Speed......Regen 3 HP/s
Complex:........124HP.....Penalty 3.75% Speed.......Regen 4.5 HP/s

These numbers are probably OP or at least not the best option, but I gave it a shot. Notice how things progress evenly up the Tiers and that the numbers on the new plates are based off of the normal plates and repairers. What do you guys think.

Cheers

[P8] The new modules
The HP for the Reactive plates should be slightly higher than shields, with 3-4hp/s regen, putting it at slightly less regeneration than shields but slightly more HP.
The idea with Reactive plates is that they should either give more HP and less repair rate than a normal plate/rep fit, or they should give less HP and more repair rate than a normal plate/rep fit, so that there's a reason to use either depending on how you want to use your fitting.

My math fu is not as strong as my theory crafting but here's what I see (anyone else please jump in if I drop a sign somewhere or make some other flub). I'll applying approximate fittings costs via EDITS, the method used is simply an extrapolation of the current fittings costs, which means that if those values need revised these values will as well.


Basic Plates
50 more HP with 2.5% less speed reduction on the Complex plates.
I like the direction this is going but if basic plates get both more HP and less 'extra weight' we may have to see a fittings increase to keep them in line. I'll have to chew through a bunch of numbers to come up with a context on that.
Complex Plate
CPU = ~86
PG = ~17
Both values are rounded down so may be higher if CCP uses a non-standard method of rounding with regard to fittings requirements. Also these values have not been corrected for the lower speed reduction and as such might be moved higher if scaled directly from our current in game values.

Repairers
The Amarr Logi in me drools over this and jumps up and down with glee
The game balance fiend in me says that roughly doubling the on board reps game wide risks being over powered and also runs afoul of two other problems.
1) It reduces diversity between shields and armor in tank styles (shields to rep armor does buffer)
2) It diminishes the value of repair tools and repair nanohives thus by extension nerfing the support logi role. No more targets for hives/tools to rep and fewer non-OHK/instant bleed deaths for needles to revive. And possibly fewer deaths at all also nefing the tactical/WP value of uplinks.

Some buff to reppers seems fine, and a stronger armor tank line will likely result in a bit of a down turn for support players regardless but both need to be kept in mind regarding ratios.

Complex Repper
CPU = 81
PG = 20
New values derived from current Complex Repper, use of other reppers as baseline results in higher total fittings requirements.

Ferroscale
Specific values aren't my strongest suit but I think the trend of progression here makes solid sense, granting armor tank more buffer than shield. However there needs to be a trade off and with no speed reduction their going to need higher CPU/PG costs than the current values from the video to prevent them overreaching Extenders and causing armor to become the new Shields.
Complex Ferroscale
CPU = 50
PG = 20

Reactive
Without fittings costs applied I can't say this unequivocally but taking the numbers as listed fittings notwithstanding I think they're likely over the top. I'd love to run them but as listed the Complex would give 9 more HP than the current Complex plates, and 0.5 HP/s more reps than the current Complex Repper, with a 6.25% lessor speed cost and it's all stacked into a single mod.... the ISK and CPU/PG costs required to keep that in line with the rest of tanking makes my wallet and dropsuit resources both cry.
Complex Reactive Plate
CPU = 114
PG = 33
New values do not account for value of speed reduction and as such would likely be higher with speed cost factored in.

Comparing them to your new numbers listed above for Reps and Plates the Reactive still outstrip the rest. A complex plate + complex rep fall short of tank provided by running two Reactive. With the providing 83 more HP and all other stats being equal. Again the ISK and CPU/PG costs required to counterbalance such a clear advantage seem likely to be painful.

I truly don't mean to harp but having Reactive plates that are potent in this way also runs into the same trouble the current reactive plates do. They are in direct competition for slots and placement with the standard plates and repper thus meaning that in most cases their primary value will be to those who are hybrid or shield tanking because they can devote fewer low slots to gain more overall armor tank effect. Free low slots are the current major limitation on most shield suits when looking at adding some more armor tank while PG is just as often/more often a limit for armor tankers who are trying to get more armor tank. I'm still left wondering how the Reactive can co-exist with the current Plate + Rep combo without one or the other becoming effectively obsolete. We need something that makes their interaction not zero sum or I don't see a way around it.

0.02 ISK
Cross

Numbers updated with fitting costs:

Plates
Basic: ..............66 HP............ Penalty 3% Speed.............fitting 12 CPU 4 PG
Enhanced:.......99 HP.............Penalty 4.5% Speed..........fitting 24 CPU 8 PG
Complex:.........165 HP...........Penalty 7.5% Speed..........fitting 36 CPU 16 PG

Repairers
Basic:..........Regen 3 HP/s......fitting 20 CPU 3 PG
Enhanced....Regen 6 HP/sGǪ..fitting 40 CPU 6 PG
Complex......Regen 9 HP/sGǪ..fitting 60 CPU 12 PG

Ferroscale
Basic:..............33HP.............fitting 18 CPU 6 PG
Enhanced:......49HP.............fitting 36 CPU 10 PG
Complex:........82HP.............fitting 54 CPU 14 PG

Reactive
Basic:.............49HP........Penalty 1.5% Speed.........Regen 1.5 HP/s......fitting 22 CPU 9 PG
Enhanced:......73HP.......Penalty 2.25% Speed......Regen 3 HP/s..........fitting 42 CPU 16 PG
Complex:.......124HP.....Penalty 3.75% Speed.......Regen 4.5 HP/s.......fitting 62 CPU 23 PG

Again probably not viable, just tinkering! Not good at spread sheeting

Holy crap, those CPU/PG values are way to high! it would be impossible to fit more than 2 reactive plates on any suit and fitting 5 complex armor plates would leave you with no CPU for shields or even an ADV weapon, and I am calculating this using a Logistics suit!

I think this spreadsheet has some good numbers on the stats of things.

Spreadsheet

I think the best way to make it so reactives do not outstrip the armor/rep combo is to buff armor and repairers but give them higher CPU/PG costs, so in combination they would be more effective but also more expensive. This would also make specializing in pure armor and pure repair worthwhile.

I do agree the Gallente and Amarr should get a passive armor repair, I think Arkena accidentally left out the Amarr. Also the Amarr should get a Higher bonus than the Gallente since the Amarr have a very low shield recharge rate and a very long wait time. I think if a passive armor is added to these races it should be +3 Gallente and +5 Amarr, also removing the passive armor repair from the Logi Caldari and Logi Minmatar and giving them the +25% shield repair should be added. Also the Minmatar suits don't really work as I think they should, which is LOW HP, High speed, High regen. At the moment they get the 2nd highest HP of the medium suits, the Highest speed of all the suits, and the 2nd highest regen (but not by much), so balancing the Min suits would actually be outside the scope the armor repair dilemma. I think the Minmatar suits and the Gallente suits should have their speed buffed, their regen buffed and delay dropped slightly, and their HP dropped slightly.

Sounds reasonable on a level by level basis but wouldn't that result in a proto reactive being roughly analogous to use of a plate + rep combo from one step down, or a half proto half adv combo fit (depending on specific numbers?


With regards to the racial armor buffs what about giving the Gal suits repair bonuses and giving the Amarr suits either a 'weight reduction' buff, a HP per plate buff or a combined buff which granted very mild bump to both?
This would give both races a solid foundation for armor tanking but some diversity of emphasis as well.

As to on board reps 3 and 5 sound like reasonable numbers (presuming a rework of the plates/other mods to promote higher overall buffer this wouldn't be likely to have a notably averse effect on support roles either). There would need to be a pass on the overall suit stats to keep balance within the respective lines with the added stats (just because armor tanking needs a buff doesn't mean the suits themselves are out of line per se, and we don't want to break them).
I agree the Mini suits are a great place for specialty features but what specifically would make a good counter balance for their current innate reps if those are getting removed?
Also having the logi skills be tank specific by race sounds great but the armor tanking versions are still going to need some love because their role buff which costs them millions of SP really can't be less then or equal to something the assault line gets standard.

Anyway not trying to drag this thread too far off topic just want to make sure some of the other aspects are being kept in mind, as soon as we start talking about changing more than the mods themselves we have to start also considering the broader implications of those changes and their context be that dropsuit, skill, or other.

0.02 ISK
Cross