Eskel Bondfree
DUST University
Ivy League
116
   |
Posted - 2013.06.30 19:07:00 -
[1] - Quote
That's some exhaustive work on the matter OP, thanks for that. I completely agree that armor tanking needs to be brought in line with shield tanking. Still I'd like to add some points I think you missed in your write up and that tilt the balance a bit in favor of armor:
- precision enhancers are actually high slot modules, not low slot
- damage modules use less PG and more CPU than shield extenders, so they can be fitted much easier by an armor tank and are much harder to fit on shield tanks when it comes to CPU/PG usage.
- CCP acknowledged that shield recharge timers currently don't work as intended. It seems they should be reset to 0 every time a bullet hits you.
- there are triage nano hives that can regenerate armor. The advanced one (affordable by any one) is healing 20 HP/s, while the prototype one heals 70 HP/s.
- repair tools are actually much more effective than shield regeneration: the triage tool heals 41 HP/s (again affordable by everyone fitting and isk wise), and the prototype focused rep tool heals an insane 105 HP/s.
When attempting to rebalance armor, everyone should keep the existence of triage hives and rep tools in mind. Otherwise we might end up with a Gallente heavy, stacking armor plates in the lows and having insane amounts of HP, while being repped for 175 HP/s by a logi and his triage hive/rep tool. It's an edge case, of course, but I think good balancing should account for edge cases, too.
Also about racial armor tanking boni: I think they are important when discussing balance. The reality is, caldari suits already have strong shield tank boni, while Gallente suits lack any bonus to armor tanking. For example logi suits: shield recharge 25 on Cal vs 15 on Gal. I'm saying this because in your comparison, you usually use numbers that are taken from suits designed for shield tanking, and so those numbers already have a racial bonus applied to them (when compared to the same numbers on suits.that are designed for armor tanking).
And I feel when you discuss the lower strafe speed of armor, you should mention that the armor tank has a higher damage output due to damage mods in the high slots. I think in a 1 vs 1 situation, higher damage makes up for lower strafe speed. With a 20% damage bonus, you need 20% less time to take down you opponent. Putting it another way, you effectively reduce the total HP of your opponent by 20%, which is very significant. |
Eskel Bondfree
DUST University
Ivy League
116
|
Posted - 2013.07.01 19:16:00 -
[2] - Quote
Guys, I did not argue that rep tools or triage hives are the saving grace for armor tanking. There is no need to explain again why armor tanking is inferior to shield tanking, we have all come to that conclusion already.
What I'm saying is simply that armor tanking does have pros to it, and there's no shame in acknowledging them even in an 'armor is UP' thread. Fairness demands that the existence and situational effectiveness of rep tools and triage hives are mentioned when comparing armor to shields, otherwise the comparison risks to appear biased.
I think it's also fair to bring proto equipment into the equation when we are using HP values of complex mods in slot layouts of proto suits and dps values of proto ARs with AR proficiency at 5.
And what would you think if 2 heavies, each with 2000 HP and being repped for 100 HP/s are defending a choke point? You might think that's a little OP. I said keep it in mind when you propose changes like increasing armor HP by 100%.
Repping under fire is not about out healing the incoming dps, it's about letting you survive those few extra seconds longer that you need to take down the enemy before he takes down you. Then you reduce the incoming dps to 0 by going from partial to full cover, and heal up again before you engage the next enemy. Keep in mind the 600 dps of a proto AR are easily reduced to less than half of that when the enemy is engaging outside of optimal range and only 1 out of 2 bullets hit because you don't stand in the open like a moron.
There are also plenty of situations when not all people in a squad have line of sight to engage the enemy, or would block each other's shots in doing so. The repping logi is not a lost gun in that situation. And when you need every gun you can get, of course the logi player brings out his gun as well. You don't need a logi suit to use a repair tool, six assaults in a squad have 6 equipment slots at their disposal at any time.
You guys said it, it's all situational, and that's why nothing of this should simply be dismissed as a non-factor in this discussion. I think we can agree on that and I hope I made my point more clear now.  |